WHY RUSSIAN HAS CASES and English doesn't; A mini lesson in Historical Linguistics
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2023
- This video pulls from Historical Linguistics to explain why languages change over time. Russian didn't suddenly ACQUIRE cases, but rather, English LOST its cases. Find out why in this video!
Links mentioned:
History of English: www.audible.com/pd/The-Histor...
My video on the Vocative Case: • Fun Fact about Russian...
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Native german here: We got eroding cases too, and it happens within a few generations as well. We used to consistently stick an 'e' at the end of words to indicate dative, i.e. "in dem Buche" vs. the more modern "in dem Buch". Substantives lost their dative e around mid 20th century. Those dativ endings are still universally understood and can be replicated by most competent speakers, but you'd come across pretty weird and stilted using them. Cheers!
Сразу как только видео включил, сильно бросилось в глаза ТО, что цвет глаз и куртка хорошо сочетаются 👌🙂
Благодарим за информацию и ваши старания 🙌
What I find very interesting is that languages with cases tend not to use articles, and vice versa. Latin has six cases and no articles, but when people discarded the cases on the way to becoming Italian, French etc, they felt the need to introduce indefinite and definite articles by adapting the words for "one" and "that".
Good point!
And then there's german with four cases marked primarily with articles
But this theory is ruined by, for example, German -- has both articles and 4 cases. )))
No, you can use both in a language, but you can't use neither.@@user-jm3xl7rg5k
Not true: Greek has articles; and nouns, adjectives, pronouns & articles decline (inflect).
Wanted to comment on your point about old Russian cases. Russian and its ancestors never had more than 7 cases, the 7th always being the vocative. Partitive and locative cases in modern Russian are not old cases leaving Russian, they are leftovers from lost noun declension classes, and these cases were always incomplete. You may note that those cases occur mostly in masculine nouns ending in consonant/-ь. Endings in those incomplete cases came from lost declension class also ending in consonant/-ь which had many common endings with the remaining one (examples of nouns from that lost class being домъ, боръ, носъ, сынъ, медъ). That lost case had -у endings in both genitive and locative (which really is the synonym for prepositional, it's just that the name "prepositional" have replaced the name "locative" in Russian grammar a few centuries ago), and so after the declension class was lost, some of its differing endings got reused as those incomplete cases, even in nouns that never belonged in the lost class.
As for stigma about whom... I grew up with an English Lit PhD for a mother, so that stigma certainly existed for me! lol
I'm glad it did, because that has helped me better understand Russian grammar.
In fact the grammar is why I fell in love with this language. Seeing an alternative expression of grammatical logic is fascinating. It reminds me of learning symbolic logic in college. Being able to put yourself in a different thought-mode is exhilarating.
Yes! I actually think Russian grammar is beautiful because it’s so organized! Do you know how to correctly use “whom”? If not, I’m telling your mom! 😜
@@howjaneylearned ну да)
"an alternative expression of grammatical logic"
well said, I'll take note
Yeah, that’s exactly why ive been a bit intrigued by finno ugric case system as a russian after learning english and previously having known german. A different way of structuring relationships between objects/concepts, although interestingly russian has quite a bit of influence from finno ugric languages grammatically, including some minor cases (only used with some words), the expression of posession (by me/him/her/etc + object), skipping the use of verb “to be”
Дженни, Вы Молодец!
Так глубоко погрузились в вопрос! Вызываете уважение! Хочется Вас поддержать!
А самое главное - Вы сказали, что нам нужно больше общаться в эти трудные времена. Это будет способствовать общему процветанию и миру. Согласен!
Джеини радует мои глаза 😍
Спасибо, очень интересно. Про местный падеж даже не задумывался раньше.
А звательный начинает, похоже, заново формироваться. Все эти "Мам!", "Тёть!", "Саш!" :)
Yes, it’s called new vocative, and is used informally
You speak about the languages interesting. I want you to keep it up 👍
Thank you, I will
Incredibly interesting.Thank you🙂
My pleasure!
Узнал много нового о своëм языке)) Спасибо за видео!
@16:20
That's the exact reason too why the Spaniards in the Philippines kept their language as an elitist language while the common folk spoke the vernacular languages yet the vernacular languages borrowed so much Spanish vocabulary in the politics and humanities sectors.
English does have cases. Those are functions of nouns in a sentence: a subject, a direct object, an indirect object and a genitive form. But English is an analytic language and that is why cases in English are not modified by endings or another parts of speech.
Thank you for presenting all this information in such an interesting and inspiring way!
Even knowing quite a bit about Russian cases, this video is once again helpful and so well stated.
Очень интересно было послушать про историю!
А я стараюсь использовать whom, когда общаюсь на английском😅
“Whom” is a case. It’s the dative, I think-the indirect object. So it’s actually a very old holdout for the English case system. Also, there is one case in English that has survived in its entirety, almost in original form, and that’s the genitive-AKA the possessive. In Old English, the case suffix was -s. In Modern English, it’s -‘s or -s’ for words in which the stem ends in s. So it’s arguably gotten more complex than it was a thousand years ago. It’s the one case that word order won’t make clear.
Perfect, marvellous!!!
Brilliant! Respect for your job!
Excellent video !
I remember when my English teacher explained the origin of irregular verbs in English, and suddenly they began to make sense 😂 Lessons like this are really important for better understanding.
Your Russian is a music for my ears. Subscribed, though I don't need to learn Russian 🙃
There was also partitive case in Russian that still sometimes occurs nowadays...
Да! Хочу чаю, хлебу и тд. It became an in irregular of genitive.
@howjaneylearned - You should read "The loom of languages" by Frederick Bodmer. The book was written 80+ years ago, so some stuff sounds strange or outdated, but he shows the similarities between Romance langagues or Germanic langu4, how they developed, etc. In my opinion a must read for everyone interested in languages.
So interesting. Thanks for presenting this. Russian cases are a challenge that is for sure. As a grammar nerd I love the challenge.
Finnish and Chinese are waiting for you.
@@peterfireflylund 😀😀😀
Awesome subject matter. I love this grammar stuff.
Totally agree about on whom, in spoken English it is quickly going going, soon to be gone. Never send to know who the bell tolls for; it tolls for whom.
You would LOVE that book on English. It was my happy place. Also, if you keep up with Russian some day you’ll be able to understand the videos of Микитко сын Алексеев but in Russian about all the quirks of Russian language history.
@@howjaneylearned, Yeah, as a Russian, I love to watch/listen to his videos very much, so I totally agree with the advice above if you like linguistics.
Great and very informative video. Thank you! I've learned about Russian more than I previously knew.
Glad it was helpful!
In Cebuano, we are slowly losing the Oblique case and it's merging with the Ergative case.
It's most likely because of influence from English.
As a Polish speaker I find Russian cases relatively easy, but the word stress is killing me. Polish has predictable stress and many if not most Russian cases translate well into Polish.
Languages do not simplify over time, no, and no modern historical linguist claims such a thing. This misconception stems from the conflation of several ideas. First is the fact that 'complexity' is not synonymous with morphological complexity. When you've only been exposed to European languages, it can be very easy to conclude that the 'complexity' of a language is determined by how many different endings nouns and verbs and adjectives can have. But the reality is that these endings are just one strategy for communicating information - all languages have to be able to communicate any human thought, and so if one system becomes less complex, another has to take its place. In the case of English, as our case system eroded, we developed a much more rigid syntax. In languages with more flexible syntax, word order often communicates emphasis, while in English other strategies have developed for reordering sentences in order to emphasize certain elements. Complexity is pretty much a zero sum game.
Now as for morphological complexity in particular, it's also completely wrong to think that this must simplify over time. All morphological systems had to be innovated in the first place after all, and plenty of languages can clearly be shown to do this or have done this. For instance, the Romani language had only two cases a thousand years ago, now it has eight. For Indo European languages more broadly, it's clear that originally there was only a two gender system (animate and inanimate), preserved in hittite, which then got more complex. The verb system originally was less complex than we observe in Ancient Greek or Sanskrit, neither of which were particularly isolated languages. What is often true is that old noun and verb endings tend to disappear over time, because the ends of words are particularly susceptible to sound shifts that make them disappear or sound identical. But languages can and do create new endings, or other sorts of morphology like the prefixes we see in bantu languages.
It's okay to make mistakes, but if you are presenting something as a fact of a scientific field, you should cite sources and properly research the topic. Don't make a claim that just seems correct and then say it's 'linguistics'.
Wow! You’re very informed! Why don’t you make videos?
(Earlier) Greek & Latin have cases & they’ve had them way earlier than Russian (or church Slavonic, for that matter) even existed. 😮
I've heard that the reason English lost its cases was due the fact that the English had to live side to side with Normans for centuries. They had both similar languages that differed mostly in case endings. So it wasn't Norman French that influenced the loss of cases but the very similar Norman speech (old Norse).
That was cool😊
I russian spaking ukraninan and I love watch your chennel)
Hello, I'm from Croatia and I've been learning Russian for 2 years, and Russian cases are a bit difficult for me even though I speak a Slavic language, (Fortunately, in terms of vocabulary, Russian and Croatian are very similar) all Slavic languages have cases (except Bulgarian) that are difficult to learn, try learning Croatian! or not to mention Polish!!! :)
Очень интересный рассказ! Так вернём же болгарам и македонцам падежи, а англичанам- whoM! 😀😀😀
Удачи в этой затее!
Из индоевропейских языков, сохранивших падеже - конечно, классическая латынь! Может быть испано- или Франко говорящим говорящим стоит освоить латинскую грамматику перед, или паралельно с изучением русского, многое станет понятнее.
Дженни красивеет с каждым годом все больше.
Language And The Mind with The Great Courses on Audible was also very good.
Also I heard that languages don't simplify, they just go in a cycle. Like, analytic > agglutinative > fusional > analytic and so on over and iver again. It lasts for thousands of years. Chinese is getting agglutinative little by little, Estonian is getting fusional little by little etc.
Вероятно, английский потерял падежи вследствие фиксации ударения на первом слоге и ослабления произношения в конце слова, а не из-за того, что говорящие перестали заботиться о грамматической корректности речи. Плюс есть существенная разница между норманнским и татаро-монгольскими завоеваниями. В Англии норманны остались и стали правящей элитой, в Северо-Восточной Руси монголы опустошили край, но там не жили, править продолжали русские князья, которые просто платили дань.
You are just smart
Im polish and we have nasal vowels, the vocative case and some remnants of the dual number. Interesting that the only languages of the slavic world that preserved the dual number in its fullness are these most westward: slovene and sorbian (spoke in eastern germany)
I'm an English teacher in Russia. Sometimes I get a smarty-pants student (they are adults) that asks about "whom" or say "Shouldn't that be 'whom'"?... Eh, maybe keep it in mind for EILETS... Я душнила... Also, when I say there is 12 verb tenses someone will occasionally interject with "Umm, actually, I heard it was (either) 16, 18 or 24 (or some number like this) because they saw a diagram once that counted, like, passive voice and conditionals as unique verb tenses. Yeah, but with whom I just tell them "no one cares", also. Same with "whilst" (but I think it might still be a thing in England). When an answer contains something in the subjunctive mood and they as I just say "eh, that's how the queen of England talks"... Because it is not worth going through it all with B1 students, however just last week I did do a deep dive with my c2 students on the subjunctive mood. Of course they had no problem with the conditional type of sentences but all the other stuff hurt their brain. While easy to learn how to form it, I found it interesting to try and explain WHY people know might use the subjunctive mood, of course I have my own explanation, but I am serious as how you might answer this question (especial they it comes from a Russian). Also, in 4 years of teaching well educated adults, only two people knew that at the end of a sentence comes a... not dot... not point... but a period. I suppose add one more if you count "full stop", which I don't. When that even become a thing in England? The same time H became "'хэч"?
Is it possible to have you as a tutor? Please
Janie who is the author of the book on the Tatars? :)
Jack Weatherford
Weatherford, Jack. Genghiz (sp?) Khan and the making of the modern world.
What a great video!
I have a 'love-not so much love today' relationship with Russian.
Well on the not so much love days just take a step back and focus on your favorite interesting tidbits about the language. I have several videos like that on my channel!
Maybe Bulgarians and Macedonians lost their cases to the Ottomans? Or perhaps they were more aligned with the Greek Orthodox and the continuity with Old Church Slavonic was severed? OCS is Greek influenced as it is, so maybe just more and more exchange over time? I'm imagining a Patriarch Nikon type situation recurring over and over again over the centuries. Or just the general linguistic diversity of the region? Some of all of the above?
Also the historical political instability of the region could certainly have the effect of a lack of *consistent* elitism surrounding the grammar, even if during a particular regime that elitism existed.
Bulgarian's loss of cases is unusual even for that region. Greek, Albanian, Turkish, Romanian, SCBM all have cases. Standard Bulgarian and Macedonian are the odd ones here.
I'd object to the notion that languages get simpler over time.
English might have lost its case system (well, its inflectional morphology in general), but its Tense-Aspect system is vastly more complicated. Not to mention an expanded lexicon beings its own complexity. Coptic (allegedly) is grammatically more complex than Middle Egyptian. French and Portuguese have more complex phonologies than Latin. Polish has more genders than Proto-Slavic. Chinese used to have no tones. PIE verbs used to not have tense. Imagine tense being a grammatical category that descendant languages innovated....
The question is then: did these languages become MORE complex as a result of contact with another language? 🤔
@@pawel198812 SCBM lol. Naški ili Vaški ili Njegovski.
@@pawel198812could you tell more about Polish's genders? I thought they had 3 only, like all or almost the other Slavic languages
@@howjaneylearned Something just occurred to me. Is it possible that English has such a broad variation of mutually intelligible accents (as opposed to stricter pronunciation in Russian, for example) because as a combined language words were selected for their pronunciation distance (distinctiveness) from other words which often appear in proximity, allowing for clearer intelligibility and thus more tolerable variation?
If I recall correctly, the great vowel shift began about 100 years after the end of distinctly Norman rule... so maybe this lends some support because that would have been when language and class decoupled and the language became more widely exposed to both the Germanic and Romantic elements.
I wonder if distinctiveness played a significant role in deciding which words lived and died from Old English and Old French, since we clearly didn't carry everything over from both.
Six cases is alot but seven is even worse😅
Hrvatski (i Srpski) su još kompleksniji kad su padeži u pitanju nominativ,genitiv,akuzativ,vokativ,lokativ,dativ i instrumental 😅
Пальто, нет пальта, дать пальту, винить пальто, творить пальтом, о пальте. Польта, нет польт, дать польтам, винить польта, польтами, о польтах. (Даже слово менять не пришлось)
-Кофе- кОфий/кофЕй - кОфия/кофеЯ, кОфию/кофеЮ, кофий/кофей, кОфием/кофеём, о кОфии, о кофеЕ (Пришлось немного видоизменить слово, хотя форму кофий видел в старых текстах, кофей же часто использую сам, даже вошло в привычку).
Остальные "несклоняемые" слова из видео не склонял, кроме бюра.
Также метро склоняю.
Лучше: нет палет 😜
@@howjaneylearned, тогда можно пальто перепутать с палетой. Лучше уж «нет пальты»! 😂
Или «нет пальтов» для множественного числа
@@thederator "Мы из них польта делать будем на рабочий кредит " (с) Шариков, "Собачье сердце" 😎
😀😀😀
16:35 Это точно ! "Незваный гость хуже татарина !" (с) В. Даль, "Пословицы и поговорки великорусского народа". 😎
"великорусского" народа
@@Qvadratus. Ну !
@@MaxGogleMogle Великопольская брехня.
A diamond: a normal everyday item 😂
Approve for more linguistics and diachrony!
@19:30 I laughed so hard because it's so true 😂😂
Privet! Great video!!!
Да, правильно отмечено, что толчком к утрате падежей послужило нормандское завоевание Англии (7:39)
Но, нет, это было не похожее на Монголо-татарское нашествие.
В Англии норманны составили правящую верхушку, создавая строгое деление общества на классы по признаку этнического происхождения, отличая друг друга по языку. По сию пору неподготовленный слушатель ничего не разберёт в кокни! Английское общество имеет деление почти как индийские касты!
Во время монгольского завоевания русская знать оставалась с народом, место русской знати не было занято монголами или тюрками, не произошло деления на свой-чужой по языку и по крови, даже наоборот, князья и бояре создали комбайн, взаимовыгодный устойчивый союз против нашествия. Так состояние языка не разрушилось.
Для сравнения можно посмотреть на болгарский язык! Тюрки по языку волжские булгары в 6-7 веке переместились в места проживания южных славян и стали правящей верхушкой у них, но, утратив тюркский язык, они повлияли на тот южнославянский язык, и теперь в болгарском языке тоже нет падежей.
болгарский терял падежи постепенно. вплоть до 19 века.
скорее всего тут просто много разных причин. во первых генетически болгары ближе грекам нежели славянам. для большинства предков сегодняшних болгар славянский язык не был родным. потом собственно тюрки пришедшие с кипчакской степи. потом болгары были частью Византии. может быть влияние латыни. по аналогии с влиянием норманнов на англичан. потом Турция. ну и шпрахбунд балканский.
Does anyone know how to become her student?
Email me! collegerussian@gmail.com
The whole premise is wrong. There are cases in English. I, me, and my are three different cases.
My is a possessive pronoun. I think you mean MINE. Yes, so many people are splitting hairs I should have said case endings. But oh well...
Хочу стрим-битву с LANGUAGE SIMP! Буду комментировать пока не увижу.
Ah! For lost innocence! 🙄
К слову, Дженни, дарю Вам рифмованную загадку в тему:
"Я Марины мама сына. Как же звать меня? - Марррина!"
Очень интересное погружение в историю языков, но хочу отметить, что в татарском языке тоже есть падежи и их тоже 6 как и в русском, думаю, это тоже повлияло на то, что русский в отличие от английского не потерял систему падежей, так как у французских норманнов падежей не было.
16:55 По-моему, "алмаз" от греческого "adamas" - "несокрушимый", а "кафтан" от персидского " haftan" - "haf" - "мешок", и "tan" - верхняя мужская одежда. Нет ? Тюрки были лишь посредниками, возможно, в передаче этих слов из греческого и фарси в русский, но не более ! Это НЕ тюркские слова изначально....
Разве вы не знаете, почему падежи в болгарском исчезли? Из-за всех моих зрителей, я думала ВЫ точно ответите на этот вопрос.
@@howjaneylearned Видимо, последствия турецкой оккупации на протяжении почти 500 лет ? Тюркские языки НЕ флективные, а агглютинативные... Видимо, как-то вот получилось такое упрощение ввиду влияния турецкого языка.... Нет ?
про хозяинa забыл. великая сакаляба.
@@howjaneylearned болгария действительно долгое время была под турецким владычеством
@@howjaneylearnedКстати, в Википедии есть довольно подробное объяснение. ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Болгарский_язык
Чаще всего я слышал, мол, влияние румынского. Но я думаю, тут действительно стечение нескольких факторов.
Case study
Nice pun
By the way, is there any way I can support your channel from Russia? Patreon is not really an option for obvious reasons
Many tenses have disappeared in French
Interesting! Can you give examples?
So sad, first sample and already slightly incorrect "mom loves dad". Word order in Russian somehow matters and can create meaning.
because of the ottoman empire ?
Из всех иностранных ютуберов Джейни лучше всех говорит на русском языке и конечно знает его правила. На мой взгляд первое место с ней может разделить только итальянка Валентина Моретти. 2 место у француженки Леа Камий. 3 место полька Настя и испанка Нурия. 4 место швейцарка Лориана и венесуэлка Кайла
Не согласен! По моему мнению, "SHANKANAKA" (она китаянка, и учила русский язык лет 5-7 всего) управляется с русским языком много лучше (особенно рекомендую посмотреть её ролик "Моя Русская Личность!! -Китаянка по-русски")
Спасибо, обязателбно гляну
Валентина, по-моему перестала вести канал. Я тоже была впечатлена ее русским! Я мечтаю говорить так красиво, как она.
@@user-rd9bm4ch3d посмотри канал еще одной испанки (не нурии),сейчас не помню название,но она сдала русский на с2. у нее вообще какой-то запредельный уровень владения да еще и речь очень уверенная
@@howjaneylearned Валя родила ребенка. Ей не до канала
Shalom from Israel!
I’m a native language speaker and I really think, that cases system is suck!
So many ppl, who live in RF make a lot of mistakes! blood from my eyes) Especially they make mistakes with “numerals”! It’s as bad as my Eng)))
Example: у меня нет двухста рублей» или «у меня нет двести рублей»
Родительный падеж от слова «двести» - «двухСОТ».
You can hear it on TV or radio. I hope, that rules will reduced. Will fall off like vestiges. And it will be easier for everybody to learn the language. But.. I can’t find the reason for foreign people to learn this language! Seriously.
Что касаемо склонения заимствованных слов (СРеднего Рода в частности), то мне, как коренному жителю столицы, жутко режет слух «в метре», «на метре» «в пальте» «пальта» «Кофя» etc...
Ах да, фраза: "поехал На Москву" для меня marker. Москвич никогда так не скажет. Он скажет "поехал В Москву" "В Ростов" и т.д.
Просто у тебя польта нормального не было😆
The hungarian language has 35 grammar cases
So few?😂
Do I dare ask why? Also, HTF are Finnish Hungarian and Uralic the same language family?
@@howjaneylearned 🤔
@@howjaneylearned Это еще не все... финно-угорские языки некоторые имеют еще и т.н. "падеж направления": т.е. направления движения "туда" и "оттуда" склоняются по этому падежу, и "падеж положения": "выше" или "ниже" , "внутри" или "снаружи" чего-то, какого-то объекта ! Куда там русскому с его глаголами движения... вот это я понимаю - ЖЕСТЬ ! 😎
@@howjaneylearned What do you mean, why? What kind of answer do you expect?
Also, I sense some confusion here. Finnish and Hungarian are both Uralic languages. The Uralic language family is traditionally classified as Samoyedic and Finno-Ugric. The latter is further divided into Finno-Permic and Ugric, with Finnish belonging to the former and Hungarian to the latter. Finnish and Hungarian are indeed relatives, but about as close relatives as, say, Russian and Spanish.
Awesome bideo,
better than sex.
As someone who is learning Russian, I don’t use the different cases. It’s easier and faster to just use one word, and I focus on the vocabulary and not the grammar.
Ммм. Русский язык какой-то сложный.
I still can't understand, how american girl can tell so facinating things about my native language in her native language. How does it work?
What's your native language?
Because she's fluent in Russian 😂
Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod.
the Bulgarian language without cases sounds terrible to the Russian ear
Иностранцы поэтому и не любят русский язык, потому-что в нём есть падежи! / That's why foreigners don't like the Russian language, because it has cases!
Children are a foreign race who change the language
true dat
The same story with bolharian and macedonian laguage, becouse of turks invasion. This languages are slavic and they don`t have cases. But you should be happy becouse russian cases have a system, you can us endings like lego, and all be fine.
Turks, Turkish language and Turkey didn't exist before 1923.
@@achatcueilleur5746 The Ottoman Emprre is often referred to as the "Ottoman Turks". @tooninja has got to be right that the bulgarian and macedonian languages changed due to Ottoman rule.
But English DOES have cases. Or is that English DO have cases
Not sure if you are suggest the do->does change is case. Cases are about change in nouns, not verbs.
If you meant something else by this comment, please ignore.
Lol
Прослушал до конца но ни фига не понял
Придётся учить английский ;)
@@howjaneylearned как говорил Дартаньян- Английский это хорошо испорченный французский
Испорченный французский И немецкий! Это полный беспредел!
Для тех, кто английского не знает: поставь "Яндекс-браузер" на основе хрома, и в правом углу видео на youtube нажми буковку "А".... Автоматический перевод на русский с голоса Дженни с помощью нейросетей Яндекса - женский голос на русском поверх оригинала английского Дженни, и т.к. у Дженни идеальная дикция, попадание более 95 % !