I'll always remember this one game where an opponent stole my boar and due to dreadful scouting on my part I couldn't find my other boar until mid-Feudal age. I pushed in a couple of deer, but really, the Lithuanian food bonus was crucial in helping me stay in the game. Thankfully, my opponent seemed to be someone who banked entirely on boar stealing to win a game, and played extremely passively afterwards, which let me claw my way towards a functional eco and eventually beat him because he'd underinvested on military. Anyways, happy birthday, Ornlu!
B-tier is fair with Saracens as an average over the course of a game, but it's like a roller coaster that reaches S-tier for at least two moments. Once when your buying up food to get to castle and the other when everyone starts running out of gold and you crash the market for tons of extra gold before anyone else can. It's my favorite economy bonus in the game.
Happy birthday Wolf. You do so much for the AOE2 community take a heart from me ♥️. So this is the day you were born right? So where were u born first ? Mongolia right during the time of Genghis Khan
this video helped me find my next favourite civ according to my playstyle. it almost was teutons but I I will go with slavs because of their hussars. i like siege and infantry
Good video - I think I largely agree with pretty much all the tier placements, except maybe Teutons? It slightly contradicts your point later on of saying saving wood is less important - I guess the 24 wood per farm adds up, but still doesn't feel as strong as some of the other A-tier bonuses.
Obviously yeah this is all just my opinion, but if you play a lot of games with Teutons, you can really feel the wood savings. I believe a lot of people only consider the bonus in the context of late-game wood savings, and that is indeed really nice, but the biggest area in which it helps you is midgame. Less wood per farm can allow to drop even more farms than usual, construct an additional TC even faster, and stuff like that. In general, midgame wood savings are great. Same concept applies to Huns
Seeing Berbers and Magyars in D tier makes perfect sense when you consider how they're always recommended for new players who just need to focus on fundamentals before learning to modify things with your eco bonuses.
They do for farms, I don't know about the fish. The thing is that Mayans have a lower farming rate than other civs to compensate for this. Spirit of the law mentions it on his Mayans Overview video, I think.
Hi, happy birthday! I'm nobody to tell it but I don't agree that much with the bottom of this list.. I would agree a lot more if we have the A tier and the B tier together and the C-D together too.. anyway the Ethiopian and berber are subvalued
I think Franks are s tier, if you consider their army comp. they have such good food eco for their scouts and knights. Obviously this doesn’t quite match what you were going for in your video but I think it’s impossible to look at their eco divorced from their army.
If a military discount isn't an eco bonus, then what is it? Is it an army bonus? It doesn't help your troops fight, it doesn't necessarilly produce more units for you, since there's a building production bottleneck much of the time anyway. I would consider it an economic bonus myself, honestly. You get to say "I can produce the same amount with fewer villagers" and in that way, it's similar to other economic bonuses. It would be distinguished in that instead of adding some resource, like the celt faster woodchopper bonus does (gives you more wood for the same amount of villagers), it makes the required resources less. It's targeted slightly differently, since it only affects *some* units, but it's not like there's a direct resource rate increase bonus that affects *all* military units either, so I think they're comparable.
That being said, I do understand where you're coming from, it's just that I think military discount bonuses are stuck somewhere between economic bonuses and proper military bonuses.
What's the point of artificially separating "true" economy bonuses and discounts on units and technologies? The only thing that matters for the game is the total value we get out of our economy, which of course depends on the strategy (even the value of a pure econmic bonus can depend on the strategy). Including theses bonuses, we would arrive at very different conclusions. For example, the two bonuses the Britons (here A tier) have (cheaper TC and faster shepherds) will bring only ~450 units if you go for 3 town centers. That's all they have to speed you up. One the other hand they miss the latest farming and stone mining upgrades, which sets you back by far more in the late game than you won in the early game. Compare this to the Byzantines (here E tier), who have 33% lower cost for the imperial age (this alone saves 600 units), free vision upgrades which save 475 units plus an advantage of ~2.5 villagers (which can produce 100 units per MINUTE). In addition four military units are 25% cheaper. That means, we are very likely to benefit from at least one of them, gaining extra value starting in feudal age, which can easily reach a worth of several thousands over the course of a game. They also have all the standard economy upgrades. The only disadvantage compared to the Britons is the lack of an early push.
I think Incas and Lithuanians are very underestimated by you. Both of them are easily B tier maybe even A tier for me. On the other hand Vietnamese, Burmese, Malay are little bit overestimated. I'll put them on C. Malay is definitely better than other two but also harder to actually get advantage from the extra villagers. Most of the players feel very uncomfortable with their surprisingly fast age up and ended up having less resource than expected despite having more villagers.
This is just my opinion. Berbers' eco is average. 10% faster movement speed for villagers helps a lot as villagers collect food and wood resources faster. Austria in AoC Hegemony are good boomer civ because their villagers move 15% faster. Thus, Berbers eco should be much better than Spanish and Lithuanians. Slavs and Celts' eco should be better than Khmer's. Slavs' farming eco is significantly better than Khmer's farming eco in the long-run. Khmer's farming eco is nearly the same as normal civs' in the middle and late-game. Celts have the best early eco. Their lumberjacks chop tree faster for free while Burgundians still need to research all lumber camp upgrades to have the same wood income as the Celts. Celts do really have good eco. The problem is they lack of military options. In BF, both Slavs and Celts are perfect boom civ to research certain ultimate upgrades.
Many i disagree with. For example, Ethiopian and Burmese eco bonuses are better than Britons i'd say. Britons have the sheep bonus which in the end just converts villagerseconds equal to ~140 wood. They also have the tc discounts, if you go 3 tc (common) this is another 275 wood or shot ~415 total. Burmese save 250f 150w on (mandatory) wood techs by Castle age. Instant research of them also nets another 30-50w typically. Important though is that food is much more precious than wood early on. Wood collects faster and doesnt need farms. Assuming double bit axe and horse collar, collecting 250f costs 15.5 villager minute (collect 60w, build farm, harvest all). 250w is about 11.5 villager minute (even including part of the lumber camp cost). In other words food is worth about 35% more than wood in eco bonuses. Taking that all together, Britons by early castle save about ~415 wood. But burmese save about ~525 wood worth. Ethiopians about ~470 wood worth. Of course Britons can eventually save more witg extra tc's but only after a 4th tc the barely get ahead, and burmese and Ethiopians both have extra bonus in imperial age again. What's even more crucial though: the burmese and ethiopian bonus are super flexible. Britons need to boom with multiple tcs to benefit. Burmese/Ethiopians can also play aggressive. Ethiopian one also has bunch of other small benefits, can MaA rush without early mining camp, can FC without early gold on arena etc. Many more in this tierlist I disagree with. In the end every eco bonus just differs in amount of resources you get extra, flexibility and some other tiny things like ease of play and safety. Some that score great on many aspects are just scoring too low and bunch of narrow and not even that powerful ones score too high.
Ethiopians get slightly better eco than Burmese coz it got 200 resources instantly. BTW can't quite agree celts aren't S, imo the final wood upgrade isn't that key after all and they still got the 5% adv.
Berbers have an S tier eco bonus on black forest. You can easily lure in all the extra boars even if you've lost your scout, and you can forget to rebuild lumber camps for longer.
Huns actually have very bad eco. no houses is more of an attention bonus. it economically only saves you around 800 wood in the game, which is worse than Ethiopian, as it mostly comes in lategame when Wood is little concern
The real bonus is not getting housed. Sure if you play perfect you will never get housed, but since even the best players in the world gets housed like almost every game, its certainly going to help a lot for an average player. Also dont forget it takes time to build houses so you save time which villagers can gather resources instead. The real downside is not being able to wall with houses.
@@knasttrast7168 i ignored the building time because, you will have to build extra walls instead, which - i think - roughly balances it out. even if every Player gets housed at some point, this will mostly happen in later stages, when it's more an issue of attention and army supplies than eco. so, i commit to what i said: Not getting housed is a strong bonus but not a cobsiderable eco bonus imo.
I think a lot of people overvalue Khmer farming bonus. It doesn't increase the farm rate. It is just a lesser penalty with improper farms. With properly placed farms they are just generic civ in regards to farms. 60 Khmer farmers = 60 properly placed farmers. 60 Khmer farmers > 60 improperly placed farmers. So unless you drop a lot of horrible farms it is not giving any benefit. Plus like you defined a bonus as faster gather or extra res, it is not a bonus.
Right, Slavs' farming eco is significantly much better than Khmer. Khmer's farming eco value is nearly the same as general civs in the middle and late game.
Dude not having to walk to drop off food to mills and town centers mean they spend more time working. The more villagers farming the stronger it becomes too, definitely not overrated.
Happy birthday! Now you're a boomer both in aoe2 and in real life!
"Burmese have a B-tier bonus, which is better than a C-tier bonus but not as good as an A-tier bonus"
😮😮😮
Facts 😀
Yes that is how the alphabet works.
@@yukondave8389 But S-tier is better than A-tier. Is that how the alphabet works? Hmm
I really do my best in these videos to provide the thoughtful, in-depth analysis that you can't find elsewhere ;)
Berbers have slightly faster farming, so I put them in D tier.
Mayans have slightly slower farming so I put them in A tier.
Well logic'ed Ornlu Kappa
Khmer farmers don't have teleporting skills, they eat the food directly out of the ground
Happy birthday Ornlu, you do good for the Aoe2 community.
I'll always remember this one game where an opponent stole my boar and due to dreadful scouting on my part I couldn't find my other boar until mid-Feudal age. I pushed in a couple of deer, but really, the Lithuanian food bonus was crucial in helping me stay in the game. Thankfully, my opponent seemed to be someone who banked entirely on boar stealing to win a game, and played extremely passively afterwards, which let me claw my way towards a functional eco and eventually beat him because he'd underinvested on military.
Anyways, happy birthday, Ornlu!
Vietnamese eco bonus also included deer luring or sheep laming with your scout
Happy Birthday!! Thanks for all your work on AOE2!
Happy Birthday!!
and you even brought us cake! :D
Great video, now I can boom and justify not going for any army even more than usual. I blame Ornlu!
2:13 Correct.
Extra HP on scouts is an Eco bonus because you can get a scout army of the same strength for fewer resources.
B-tier is fair with Saracens as an average over the course of a game, but it's like a roller coaster that reaches S-tier for at least two moments. Once when your buying up food to get to castle and the other when everyone starts running out of gold and you crash the market for tons of extra gold before anyone else can. It's my favorite economy bonus in the game.
Do you have an updated tier list for eco with dawn of Dukes civs and new Indian civs?
Great editing
Happy birthday Wolf. You do so much for the AOE2 community take a heart from me ♥️. So this is the day you were born right? So where were u born first ? Mongolia right during the time of Genghis Khan
Happy birthday to you!
Have a great day
Happy bday ornlu!
Happy Birthday Ornlu, keep the great vids coming!
"Eco Bonus is only what helps you booming" - Ornlu the Wolf, certified Boomer.
Happy birthday and thank you for this nice video! I think many people dont mind you talking a liitle more, I definitely dont!
Happy Birthday Ornlu, King of the 🐺 s
Seeing all these carefully crafted comments, here is my contribution:
OMG TIER LIST POG
this video helped me find my next favourite civ according to my playstyle. it almost was teutons but I I will go with slavs because of their hussars. i like siege and infantry
Happy Ornday!
Happy birthday! It's mine too 💗
Happy birthday ornlu !!
Happy Birthday! More, more more
Happy birthday Ornlu! Happy Wolfday! 😂
A bit late, but: Happy Birthday!
Happy birthday ornluu
Happy Boomerday Ornlu!
Happy Birthday!
Yay Tier list podcast!
I like how two D tier Civs are "defensive" :D and I really agree with thís assesment and think it would be hard to disagree on this point.
Huns in A tier is a major miss.
vietnamese bonus on guilds is really good I must say
Guilds costs no wood anyway! So there isnt a bonus here...or am I missing something?
@@gabola5390 the joke
First Like ^^ oh and happy birthday WolfBoy
Happy birthday!
Happy Birthday ;)
Happy B-Day Ornlu ;-)
Good video - I think I largely agree with pretty much all the tier placements, except maybe Teutons? It slightly contradicts your point later on of saying saving wood is less important - I guess the 24 wood per farm adds up, but still doesn't feel as strong as some of the other A-tier bonuses.
Obviously yeah this is all just my opinion, but if you play a lot of games with Teutons, you can really feel the wood savings. I believe a lot of people only consider the bonus in the context of late-game wood savings, and that is indeed really nice, but the biggest area in which it helps you is midgame. Less wood per farm can allow to drop even more farms than usual, construct an additional TC even faster, and stuff like that.
In general, midgame wood savings are great. Same concept applies to Huns
Seeing Berbers and Magyars in D tier makes perfect sense when you consider how they're always recommended for new players who just need to focus on fundamentals before learning to modify things with your eco bonuses.
Happy Birthday
Ohhhhhhhh happy birthday 🎂🥳🎉
As a member of the illustrious ‘we enjoy hearing Ornlu ramble on and on and on gang’, I am disappointed
It just hit me. Do Mayans get extra food out of farms and fish as well? Or is that purely land, natural resources?
They do for farms, I don't know about the fish. The thing is that Mayans have a lower farming rate than other civs to compensate for this. Spirit of the law mentions it on his Mayans Overview video, I think.
Yes more food on farms and more food on fish
Happy birthday ayaya
Teasing the Japanese in S tier, to put them in B tier
I fear you've made someone very angry xD
Is it Spirit of the Law
I realised what and who his voice reminded me of when I stopped watching the visuals of the video and concentrated on the audio. Sesame Street!
Hi, happy birthday!
I'm nobody to tell it but I don't agree that much with the bottom of this list.. I would agree a lot more if we have the A tier and the B tier together and the C-D together too.. anyway the Ethiopian and berber are subvalued
Hi Ornlu, I’d argue that Berbers vills collect more extra resources than Bulgarians save stone + the defensive advantages that you mentioned
Happy birthday!
How many years on Earth?
24 - Dadgum
@@OrnLu_AoE love your content, keep creating
I think Franks are s tier, if you consider their army comp. they have such good food eco for their scouts and knights. Obviously this doesn’t quite match what you were going for in your video but I think it’s impossible to look at their eco divorced from their army.
If a military discount isn't an eco bonus, then what is it? Is it an army bonus? It doesn't help your troops fight, it doesn't necessarilly produce more units for you, since there's a building production bottleneck much of the time anyway. I would consider it an economic bonus myself, honestly. You get to say "I can produce the same amount with fewer villagers" and in that way, it's similar to other economic bonuses. It would be distinguished in that instead of adding some resource, like the celt faster woodchopper bonus does (gives you more wood for the same amount of villagers), it makes the required resources less. It's targeted slightly differently, since it only affects *some* units, but it's not like there's a direct resource rate increase bonus that affects *all* military units either, so I think they're comparable.
That being said, I do understand where you're coming from, it's just that I think military discount bonuses are stuck somewhere between economic bonuses and proper military bonuses.
Let me guess before watching the video -
SSS : Vikings, Burgandians
S : Celts, Mayans, Chinese, Franks, Aztecs
A : Lithuanians, Khmer, Malians, Slavs, Huns, Indians, Britons
B : Teutons, Persians, Ethiopians, Tatars, Cumans, Incas
C : Mongols, Japanese, Italians, Malay, Vietnamese, Burmese, Turks, Portuguese
D : Sicilians, Byzantines, Koreans, Bulgarians, Saracens, Spanish, Berbers
F : Goths, Magyars
Lol Cumans B...
@@yukondave8389 Cumans can be from SSS to F, depending on whether you managed to build the extra TC in Feudal or not.
@@SM-bb4hx I agree with you about Cumans' eco
@@yukondave8389 Where would you put them?
@@SM-bb4hx Well, in 1 vs 1 you are right probably, because a second tc can make you very exposed, but in team games I would put them in A or S.
07:34 my new fav strat :D
What's the point of artificially separating "true" economy bonuses and discounts on units and technologies? The only thing that matters for the game is the total value we get out of our economy, which of course depends on the strategy (even the value of a pure econmic bonus can depend on the strategy). Including theses bonuses, we would arrive at very different conclusions.
For example, the two bonuses the Britons (here A tier) have (cheaper TC and faster shepherds) will bring only ~450 units if you go for 3 town centers. That's all they have to speed you up. One the other hand they miss the latest farming and stone mining upgrades, which sets you back by far more in the late game than you won in the early game.
Compare this to the Byzantines (here E tier), who have 33% lower cost for the imperial age (this alone saves 600 units), free vision upgrades which save 475 units plus an advantage of ~2.5 villagers (which can produce 100 units per MINUTE). In addition four military units are 25% cheaper. That means, we are very likely to benefit from at least one of them, gaining extra value starting in feudal age, which can easily reach a worth of several thousands over the course of a game. They also have all the standard economy upgrades. The only disadvantage compared to the Britons is the lack of an early push.
I think Celts have s-tier eco. They just lack the power units so it's not as oppressive. Imagine Celts with FU arbs for example. That would be nasty.
Nicov : You spoke well but this doesn’t mean anything for me
When we getting that asmr tier list?
I think Incas and Lithuanians are very underestimated by you. Both of them are easily B tier maybe even A tier for me. On the other hand Vietnamese, Burmese, Malay are little bit overestimated. I'll put them on C. Malay is definitely better than other two but also harder to actually get advantage from the extra villagers. Most of the players feel very uncomfortable with their surprisingly fast age up and ended up having less resource than expected despite having more villagers.
This is just my opinion. Berbers' eco is average. 10% faster movement speed for villagers helps a lot as villagers collect food and wood resources faster. Austria in AoC Hegemony are good boomer civ because their villagers move 15% faster. Thus, Berbers eco should be much better than Spanish and Lithuanians. Slavs and Celts' eco should be better than Khmer's. Slavs' farming eco is significantly better than Khmer's farming eco in the long-run. Khmer's farming eco is nearly the same as normal civs' in the middle and late-game. Celts have the best early eco. Their lumberjacks chop tree faster for free while Burgundians still need to research all lumber camp upgrades to have the same wood income as the Celts. Celts do really have good eco. The problem is they lack of military options. In BF, both Slavs and Celts are perfect boom civ to research certain ultimate upgrades.
And Inca's should be placed higher. Saracens lower.
Many i disagree with. For example, Ethiopian and Burmese eco bonuses are better than Britons i'd say.
Britons have the sheep bonus which in the end just converts villagerseconds equal to ~140 wood. They also have the tc discounts, if you go 3 tc (common) this is another 275 wood or shot ~415 total.
Burmese save 250f 150w on (mandatory) wood techs by Castle age. Instant research of them also nets another 30-50w typically. Important though is that food is much more precious than wood early on. Wood collects faster and doesnt need farms. Assuming double bit axe and horse collar, collecting 250f costs 15.5 villager minute (collect 60w, build farm, harvest all). 250w is about 11.5 villager minute (even including part of the lumber camp cost). In other words food is worth about 35% more than wood in eco bonuses.
Taking that all together, Britons by early castle save about ~415 wood. But burmese save about ~525 wood worth. Ethiopians about ~470 wood worth. Of course Britons can eventually save more witg extra tc's but only after a 4th tc the barely get ahead, and burmese and Ethiopians both have extra bonus in imperial age again.
What's even more crucial though: the burmese and ethiopian bonus are super flexible. Britons need to boom with multiple tcs to benefit. Burmese/Ethiopians can also play aggressive. Ethiopian one also has bunch of other small benefits, can MaA rush without early mining camp, can FC without early gold on arena etc.
Many more in this tierlist I disagree with. In the end every eco bonus just differs in amount of resources you get extra, flexibility and some other tiny things like ease of play and safety. Some that score great on many aspects are just scoring too low and bunch of narrow and not even that powerful ones score too high.
Ethiopians get slightly better eco than Burmese coz it got 200 resources instantly. BTW can't quite agree celts aren't S, imo the final wood upgrade isn't that key after all and they still got the 5% adv.
Happy Shh- huh day!
Persians are probably s tier in a wonder race or 200 pop race
Berbers should be C tier. Their fishing ships move faster too :)
Berbers have an S tier eco bonus on black forest. You can easily lure in all the extra boars even if you've lost your scout, and you can forget to rebuild lumber camps for longer.
lol.... really no houses = A tire but cheaper stable units = D tire??
I dunno why but I was expecting crappy Ornlu editing to be accompanied by a star wipe/dream fade and 1980s style sound effect.
Quite disappointed now.
So sorry D:
Huns actually have very bad eco. no houses is more of an attention bonus. it economically only saves you around 800 wood in the game, which is worse than Ethiopian, as it mostly comes in lategame when Wood is little concern
The real bonus is not getting housed. Sure if you play perfect you will never get housed, but since even the best players in the world gets housed like almost every game, its certainly going to help a lot for an average player. Also dont forget it takes time to build houses so you save time which villagers can gather resources instead. The real downside is not being able to wall with houses.
@@knasttrast7168 i ignored the building time because, you will have to build extra walls instead, which - i think - roughly balances it out.
even if every Player gets housed at some point, this will mostly happen in later stages, when it's more an issue of attention and army supplies than eco.
so, i commit to what i said: Not getting housed is a strong bonus but not a cobsiderable eco bonus imo.
I think Incas and Ethiopians should have been B-tier honestly
Doesn't feel good that Bulgarians and Portuguese are a tier above Berbers who have 10% faster villagers
teutons forever
I think a lot of people overvalue Khmer farming bonus. It doesn't increase the farm rate. It is just a lesser penalty with improper farms. With properly placed farms they are just generic civ in regards to farms. 60 Khmer farmers = 60 properly placed farmers. 60 Khmer farmers > 60 improperly placed farmers. So unless you drop a lot of horrible farms it is not giving any benefit. Plus like you defined a bonus as faster gather or extra res, it is not a bonus.
Right, Slavs' farming eco is significantly much better than Khmer. Khmer's farming eco value is nearly the same as general civs in the middle and late game.
Dude not having to walk to drop off food to mills and town centers mean they spend more time working. The more villagers farming the stronger it becomes too, definitely not overrated.
@@crx122 Not dropping off food increases by roughly 2-3%. Slavs is much higher
No sicily and Burgundians
Happy birthday
Happy birthday!