Atheist Debates - Black Swan fallacy vs Null Hypothesis

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
  • Part of the Atheist Debates Patreon project: / atheistdebates
    Is the Black Swan fallacy in conflict with what the Null hypothesis would present as a default position?
    Some confusion about what is actually being said, has been the subject of a number of questions - and we'll try to answer them here.

ความคิดเห็น • 194

  • @mjja99
    @mjja99 7 ปีที่แล้ว +19

    Joke? -- A astronomer, a physicist and a mathematician are travelling, by train, from England to Scotland for the first time. On crossing the border they look out of the window and see a black sheep. The astronomer states 'look - all sheep in Scotland are black' . the physicist retorts ' no - some sheep in Scotland are black'. To which the mathematician replies 'there exists a field in Scotland which contains at least one sheep of which one side is black'.

  • @hozozco
    @hozozco 7 ปีที่แล้ว +36

    I've always giggled at the Black Swan fallacy. I live in Australia and I've never seen a white swan!
    (love your work Matt).

    • @Grim_Beard
      @Grim_Beard 7 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      Yes, in New Zealand and Australia it should be called the 'white swan fallacy'. Although in Oz, the 'non-lethal animal' fallacy would work too! ;-)

    • @MsDjessa
      @MsDjessa 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      There are apparently some black swans in UK too as invasive species. But even I here in Finland have seen a stuffed individual in a museum. They are really beautiful.

    • @antediluvianatheist5262
      @antediluvianatheist5262 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Grim_Beard nah. They're white for the most part. Black ones are uncommon and usually busting from Oz.

    • @Torwyn11
      @Torwyn11 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      And then, in South America - are the black necked swans - two worlds collided!
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-necked_swan

    • @flying_spaghettimonster
      @flying_spaghettimonster 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Grim_Beard
      All animals are lethal if you eat enough of them.

  • @Grim_Beard
    @Grim_Beard 7 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    Interesting way of looking at these two things Matt. However, I think the root of the problem may really be that people simply use the term 'null hypothesis' inappropriately. Used correctly, the null hypothesis (H0) only exists in conjunction with the alternative (sometimes called experimental) hypothesis (H1). The null hypothesis is not a 'thing' in and of itself, rather only existing as the null of the alternative hypothesis. Importantly, the alternative hypothesis needs to *be* a hypothesis, which means it needs (among other things) to be specific.
    "God exists" is not a valid H1, because it is not specific - which god and what are its qualities? - so there is no accompanying H0 "God does not exist". It is therefore not correct to say that the non-existence of god(s) is the null hypothesis. In contrast, "Jehovah, the god as described in the Bible, exists" is specific enough to be an H1, with the concomitant H0 then being "Jehovah, the god as described in the Bible, does not exist". When we have an H1 that is specific, it also becomes testable. In this example, we have copious evidence that Jehovah, as described in the Bible, does not exist (e.g. there was no global flood, species were not created in their modern forms, etc. so the god described as doing those things has been falsified).
    What we should do, then, as sceptics and/or scientists is stop using the term 'null hypothesis' incorrectly. We can only have a null hypothesis in response to an alternative hypothesis. Saying to a theist "I'm adopting the null hypothesis" without them putting forward their own alternative hypothesis relieves them of the burden of making a specific, testable claim. We should require them to do that first - asking "what is it that you believe?" and requiring them to elucidate it clearly (even if it's as basic as, for instance, "Jesus as described in the gospel of John" or "Allah as described in the Quran"). If we can already falsify a specific H1 then we don't even need to fall back on the null hypothesis in the first place; if we can't only then do we assume the null whilst awaiting evidence for the specific H1 they have put forward.

    • @Daz19
      @Daz19 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      So glad you said this! I initially used the null hypothesis like Matt, however having spent some time learning the scientific method, I've relaised as you stated the null hypothesis exists in conjunction with alternative hypothesis. Knowing this places the burden of proof on then person testing the hypothesis and claiming the null hypothesis has been disproven.

    • @flying_spaghettimonster
      @flying_spaghettimonster 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I exist, therefore you are.

  • @csnowutube
    @csnowutube 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    This is great, thanks! I think I always agree with Matt, but he is so much ahead of me, I don't fully understand his reasoning. This is closer to my speed of learning. Thanks again

  • @moonbot7235
    @moonbot7235 7 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    Nothing better than smoking a joint and listening to Matt drop knowledge. #303

    • @Bill_Garthright
      @Bill_Garthright 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I'm all for smoking a joint on occasion - or I would be, if it were legal here - but I want a cup of coffee when I'm listening to Matt, because I need to be as clear-headed as possible!

    • @daithiocinnsealach1982
      @daithiocinnsealach1982 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Bill_Garthright Sometimes weed gives you insights that coffee cannot. But admittedly weed may not be the best drug to consume when trying to wrap your head around logical fallacies.

    • @Bill_Garthright
      @Bill_Garthright 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@daithiocinnsealach1982
      Heh, heh. Weed gives you 'insights' the way religion does. In both cases, it might be entertaining, but it's silly to take it seriously.
      Admittedly, I was never a big fan of religion. :)

    • @daithiocinnsealach1982
      @daithiocinnsealach1982 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Bill_Garthright I agree on the link between religion and drugs. Which is why religion used to equate drug talking with religion itself. Sometimes in a positive light and sometimes negative. But we now have better explanations, which is interesting to ponder in light of what was just talked bout in the video regarding the null hypothesis and geocentrism.
      But I disagree on the conclusion we should take regarding the psychological insights gained. Religion and drugs, when done right, can help us understand human nature. When done wrong they can corrupt and destroy.
      It was a true statement when it was said that religion is the opium of the masses.

  • @marlonvaronen7905
    @marlonvaronen7905 7 ปีที่แล้ว +24

    Hey Matt! I have been watching your videos for years. You do great stuff. First i found the Atheist Experience on TH-cam and it went on from there.You have a fan in Sweden! :D
    /Marlon

    • @RikardPeterson
      @RikardPeterson 7 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      More than one. :)

    • @PhysiKarlz
      @PhysiKarlz 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Último Suspiro
      If the game was to say as many incoherent things in the most arrogant way possible, then ye Dillahunty got owned.

    • @Evidence1
      @Evidence1 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      He has at least two fans from Sweden ;)

    • @RikardPeterson
      @RikardPeterson 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Suspiro - You're mistaken. You're right in that if you compare rape statistics of different countries, Sweden will appear to have a high number of rapes, but a large part of that is that we take the crime seriously, so many of those crimes (for example rape within a marriage) wouldn't be considered rape in some other countries. For more information, see www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migration-and-crime-in-sweden/

    • @JohanJonasson
      @JohanJonasson 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Evidence three 👍

  • @allenmciver1888
    @allenmciver1888 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Thank you for your thoughts!

  • @DBCisco
    @DBCisco 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    I find that many people can't grasp the differences you explained very well. Have shared this video to educate some people. Thank You, Matt.

  • @occam6283
    @occam6283 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    This is an incredibly concise description of the topic, thank you for this

  • @robertsertic4276
    @robertsertic4276 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    This was exactly what I was trying to find when you answered me before. It would have been helpful to just link me this vid. I just chanced upon it. I really needed this vid.

    • @SansDeity
      @SansDeity  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      You think I have all of my videos memorized and available to link to anyone who asks?

    • @robertsertic4276
      @robertsertic4276 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@SansDeity yes I did but I can see where that would be unreasonable.

    • @robertsertic4276
      @robertsertic4276 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@SansDeity just to clarify I wasn't trying to be rude but I think I came off that way, so sorry. I find you're videos very helpful and enlightening.

  • @saintdonoghue
    @saintdonoghue 7 ปีที่แล้ว +28

    I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that all the dislikes on this video come from flat-earthers.

    • @dannysnee4945
      @dannysnee4945 7 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Or purple swan worshipers

    • @pietrotacconelli8311
      @pietrotacconelli8311 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      The Aussie Cumquat sir are you daring to mock the divinity of the elephant sized purple swans that inhabit our great glass domed plane?

    • @stirthepot8892
      @stirthepot8892 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      That or they all came from gman's many troll accounts.

    • @mindlander
      @mindlander 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Is it rational to believe doubts have shadows? I think not. The burden is on you. Also what is beyond a shadow? Your court has a ball in it sir. Oh...wait. Shit.

    • @flying_spaghettimonster
      @flying_spaghettimonster 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@mindlander
      Beyond a shadow would be not a shadow.
      I should know, I created shadows and not shadows.

  • @humbertojimmy
    @humbertojimmy 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Well put, but you forgot one important detail: limits of definitions!
    For example, someone could make the *claim* that there are no purple swans the size of elephants and still be correct, not because there's certainty in its non existence, but because such creature would fall so outside the limits of what we understand as "a swan", that even existing, could no longer possibly be considered a swan anymore.
    It's a bit like the paradox trick question: how tall can a dwarf grow? In theory, there's no reason to think that *whatever height* you think it's the maximum, there couldn't be one a couple inches taller... the problem is, at what point is he no longer considered a dwarf!?

  • @gowdsake7103
    @gowdsake7103 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    I have to admit that mat has helped me a lot in my limited thinking, I do confess tho the nuances of logic make my head hurt !

  • @dimplezdimples8451
    @dimplezdimples8451 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Am i the only one wondering about the four pieces of 2 by 4 behind Matt on the desk? Are they props for another fallacy video?

  • @joegillian314
    @joegillian314 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    The Null Hypothesis is the hypothetical position one assumes that, if true, would falsify whatever hypothesis is being tested, truth to be determined by the data (evidence), naturally.

    • @PhysiKarlz
      @PhysiKarlz 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Joe Gillian
      The interesting thing about the null hypothesis is that it can never be shown as true. If results appear consistent with the null hypothesis this doesn't prove it is true, it only shows that it or other hypotheses, not including the tested alternative hypothesis, could be true.

  • @borissman
    @borissman 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    i think its fair to point out that you can have an argument with false premises and a false conclusion and, at the same time, an argument with justified premises and a justified conclusion

  • @zeinbergess3605
    @zeinbergess3605 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    How I understood the null hypothesis is you're in a world & you want to know how it works, so you can make the best decisions.So do you accept any claim uttered as true for simply being asserted
    or do you with hold judgement on items & their relation to each other until it has been demonstrated.
    If you go down the first path you might wind up killing people to ward off enemies that don't exist.
    If you go down the second path you are more likely to not make major life decisions on rumors.

  • @adbrouwer
    @adbrouwer 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    I really like these videos about logic and reasoning.
    If feel a "but" coming... but I think at 17:43 you meant to say "spinning around its axis". This in order to get the same observation of the movement of the sun.
    Keep up the good work 👍

  • @dannysnee4945
    @dannysnee4945 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    I want to have as many justified beliefs and as few unjustified beliefs as possible. It might not sound as good as a mantra that the alternatives but it avoids a lot of problems and confusion

  • @Seadogpreedy
    @Seadogpreedy 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    I follow what Matt is saying and it has helped my understanding of logic. I have often thought about this issue associated with the black swan fallacy. And I think there is another way of looking at this point, and that is that being black doesn't change the nature of being a swan. Why is the statement; all swans are white; actually a statement to be considered worth falsifing. It is almost as if that statement is void of any note worthy claim. Having feathers is a trait associated with being a swan and we know feathers come in many colours. So all swans are white is a statement to be taken with some uncertainty from the outset. It is not a big jump in knowledge to find black or indeed any other coloured swans existing.

    • @zer-op2gq
      @zer-op2gq 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Agreed. All swans are white is a step too far. There is a fine line that Matt put into words well, but my understanding (before video, but think I'm still on the right track) is that all swans are white is the black swan fallacy. Ironically i accept that i may be wrong on this

  • @josephcioe4697
    @josephcioe4697 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    There's a connection between the Andromeda galaxy and erectile dysfunction right?

    • @zer-op2gq
      @zer-op2gq 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Aferm

    • @stansolo4138
      @stansolo4138 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I have to blame something ....

  • @brendarua01
    @brendarua01 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Some kinds of things are not black or white (swans). These are the category of the pint or two problem. We have to go on what is most likely, and not in the common sense way Matt mentions about whether you have a $100 bill in your wallet. We have to look at statistical distributions and averages, but also variation. For example I might think Australian shepherds are smarter than poodles. I have to prove that because the default is that there is no difference, all things equal. But we first have to agree on definitions. That's best settled over a pint or two :D

  • @zendean5207
    @zendean5207 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Also, the Black Swan argument is inductive reasoning, and I consider all inductive arguments to be fallacious. I'm curious what Matt thinks about inductive arguments, whether or not they can be cogent.

  • @jimmyb1133
    @jimmyb1133 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Chapman Cohen:
    ''Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense''

  • @stansolo4138
    @stansolo4138 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I've seen a purple swan the size of a swan and I've seen a white swan the size of an elephant ..... what does that mean ?

  • @JohnSmith-bd7sg
    @JohnSmith-bd7sg 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Matt. On the subject of fallacies. Do you think that Richard Dawkins Boing 747 argument is a logical fallacy? Because he compares an unknown creator of unknown unknown orgin to something of known complexity(747) and known nature.?? False comparison right?...?

  • @FrozEnbyWolf150
    @FrozEnbyWolf150 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    No connection between that shirt and infant mortality? Come on, everyone knows atheists wear special shirts whenever we go out foraging for babies. The orange shirts attract the most delicious ones.

  • @aditsu
    @aditsu 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Now.. if one says they believe there is no god, do they have a burden of proof or are they simply justified in believing that because it's the null hypothesis and it hasn't been disproved?

    • @41Duck
      @41Duck 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      There is no burden of proof because they are not making a positive claim. They are, instead, not believing the positive claim made by others that there is a god. Therefore, they are entitled to request the evidence by those making the claim.

  • @ElroyMF1
    @ElroyMF1 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    So the black swan fallacy only applies to positive claims, not the null hypothesis.
    I'm still not clear about the null hypothesis though. It's that there's no connection between x and y? So how did you arrive at: the null hypothesis was that the sun orbits the earth? What's the connection between x and y there?

  • @mikekeenanphd
    @mikekeenanphd 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Some visual aids would really help this discussion I think.

  • @applicableapple3991
    @applicableapple3991 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I thought the default position is that you just don't know. Why isn't it?

    • @fcomley
      @fcomley 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      There are an infinite number of things that don't exist. It is unreasonable to assume that they all might exist.
      It is reasonable to say that we start with the null hypothesis. That does not deny the existence of these things it just says that the level of evidence to show that they exist has not been shown.

    • @applicableapple3991
      @applicableapple3991 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@fcomley so with something like Russell's teapot (excluding the fact that we know it's just an example) we should say: I don't believe because there is not sufficient evidence. Not: I don't know.
      This sounds a bit strange to me, is the default position non-existence then?

    • @fcomley
      @fcomley 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@applicableapple3991 - It's not about belief. It's about evidence and reason.
      The null hypothesis means that if there is no evidence for something it is reasonable to say that it doesn't exist with the caveat that our position is subject to change.
      If we said that because we can't see Russell's Teapot with our current technology then it doesn't exist then we would be failing with the black swan fallacy.
      Saying " As there is no evidence we conclude that our provisional position is that it does not exist but we welcome anyone that wishes to provide evidence" is reasonable

    • @applicableapple3991
      @applicableapple3991 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@fcomley okay thanks👍

  • @lukostello
    @lukostello 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Matt I would like to see you do a talk about what naturalism means and does it presuppose materialism

  • @madcow9597
    @madcow9597 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    I have a question. I have the thought that when someone says something exists then it's a positive claim. When someone says something doesn't exist, aren't you making a negative claim? You can't prove that something doesn't exist. It seems impossible in my logic, but of course, I could be thinking of it wrong. Can someone try to clarify it?

    • @zer-op2gq
      @zer-op2gq 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      No i think you're right where you should be. "There are no black swans" and "all swans are white" are equally guilty (and wrong as it were). There are no purple swans is different then i don't think there's purple swans, or even no purple swans that i know of. It comes down to conviction to the idea (probably lol)

  • @khermerker
    @khermerker 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    well not sure about the shirt.. i mean i wanted to die when i see that shirt XD

  • @smaakjeks
    @smaakjeks 7 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    So, in summary, using the black swan:
    *Null hypothesis* - I have seen no evidence for back swans, but will be able to recognise one if one appears. Until such time, swans cannot be said to be black.
    *Black swan fallacy* - I conclude that black swans don't exist for I have never seen one.
    Edited to add: Several people respond to this and disagree with me. No one can explain how I'm wrong, and the last person to respond paints himself into a corner before bitterly gloating about my ultimate demise in ignorance. Disappointing, but entertaining, I suppose.

    • @feasted2941
      @feasted2941 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Smaakjeks K No. The black swan fallacy concludes there is no black swans BECAUSE they have only seen white ones. The null hypothesis concludes that there is no black swans BECAUSE a black swan has never been demonstrated to exist. The REASON/JUSTIFICATION for your position is important. Also, its important to note that the null hypothesis is a falsifiable position; meaning it CAN be demonstrated to be false

    • @smaakjeks
      @smaakjeks 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      That's exactly what I wrote.

    • @feasted2941
      @feasted2941 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      no. Re-read your black swan fallacy. You worded it incorrectly.

    • @smaakjeks
      @smaakjeks 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      My version of the black swan fallacy:
      "I conclude that black swans don't exist for I have never seen one."
      Your version:
      "there is no black swans BECAUSE they have only seen white ones"
      Identical, except that you use "because" and I use "for" (which mean the same thing), and except you word the lack of seeing black swans as having only seen white swans. There is no difference. Both version are fallacious because of the argument from ignorance: personal experience being the reason one concludes that something does not exist.

    • @flyingsodwai1382
      @flyingsodwai1382 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Smaakjeks K, that's not identical. For there to be no difference in the statements you would have to say " I conclude that black swans don't exist for I have only seen white ones." It's a subtle difference but important. Your versions draws a conclusion for no reason and is therefor the argument from ignorance fallacy. The black swan fallacy has you drawing a conclusion for a wrong reason, not no reason.

  • @0cards0
    @0cards0 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    hey matt, you should make a video about the difference between a belief in god vs the external world, & whether they both faith based

  • @halseykale9930
    @halseykale9930 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    But then the proposition "god exists" can be adopted as a default position either, because I can go "the creation can't be arbitrary and there must be a designer". The burden of proof has been given. Now it would be up to atheists to show how creation is actually arbitrary, but that's an absurd. No one can really speak about creation because no one was there, there wasn't any writing system and word-of-mouth can't be sufficiently reliable.
    So in reality, we'd have a paralysis of judgment about creation and the origin of the world because no one can really set one of the two position as the deafult one. No position is actually free from the burden of proof.
    The Null Hypothesis is a quick tool to cut off many unrealistic assumptions, just like a philosophical razor, but it's just a default position itself, can't justify itself. What is a deafult position? Something taken as true until proven wrong? We didn't make any progress, because "true" depends on many other things that just those parameters you build any default position on. If those parameters are based on evidence, then the Null Hypothesis is just Galileo's experimental method: just useful for technical issue, not suitable for intellectual reasoning about god. Many assumptions can in turn be drawn from the Null Hypothesis. For example, one can claim that there's no pre and after life by looking at physical reality: we were not a thing until we were conceived, and after death our body is basically just a bunch of atoms bounded togheter, like everything else, and the person is gone. It could be easy to say that there's no connection between death and an after life (and birth with pre life) because it doesn't seem to be the case, and to take this one as the default position that would need to be disproven, but it's not the case, it's just an assumption, a myth, just like heaven, hell, reincarnation, etc. Non-existence would be something free from the burden of proof according to the Null Hypothesis, but it can't be. Just like for the god issue, there are places human's mind just can't reach. When it pretends it reached them, it assumes things. When you try and use science to investigate unreachable issues like gos and pre-after-life, you're committing a mistake - a fallacy - in the beginning, just by treating those unknowable things as scientifical objects that can be observed and studied.
    It's equally irrational to either live as god existed and as god didn't. Here we need to be aware of the paralysis of judgment we are forced to.

  • @tomasbeha1645
    @tomasbeha1645 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great video! On the purple swan the size of an elephant falacy, I'd argue that the definition of "a swan" must be made absolutely clear first.

    • @steveo4400
      @steveo4400 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Tomas Beha. Why? Swans are a well understood species. Anything purple and swan like seen must first be confirmed to be a swan. This is done through well understood definitions already established. Should be also have to define elephant? And purple? And size?

  • @anthonypc1
    @anthonypc1 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Okay, I think I've got it.
    so, the point is there's no such thing as an elephant-sized purple swan.

  • @MrRipsnowman
    @MrRipsnowman 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    The presentation of the "Null Hypothesis," is falsely conceived. It only applies to those posits that cannot be examined such as there is a purple rock on Venus. If one adds to the posit, "that speaks" the null hypothesis now does not apply in that one can form a reasonable induction that the posit is false as no rocks are known to speak. The Null Hypothesis is in reality useless.
    The Black Swan fallacy is no fallacy at all really in that until the data comes in one cannot do anything but assert. If placed as an induction, the Black Swan fallacy is no fallacy either formally or informally as one is dealing with likelihoods and probabilities. Herein he states it deductively, which certainly is fallacious. It is interesting to me that he rightly states: "Just because something hasn't happened in your experience doesn't mean the experience" doesn't point to something that is veridical to the experience. I changed the nature of his statement as it was ambiguously stated I assume as a colloquial means of making the statement. In terms of God's existence, this whole video places God's existence as equally plausible to God's non-existence.

  • @BFDT-4
    @BFDT-4 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Excellent!

  • @mr7777leon
    @mr7777leon 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Matt, Please explain.
    Why should the default be "There are no swans until demonstrated that there are"
    rather than "We don't know if there are any swans"

    • @HadalStreetlights
      @HadalStreetlights 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Because whether you know it or not is not the position being examined. Existential claims are On/Off, either it exists or it doesn't. There isn't any secret middle point where it kinda exists.
      This is like if I asked you whether or not I could buy lemonade on a sunday morning in Texas and you instead tell me about how much you like lemonade.

    • @mr7777leon
      @mr7777leon 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      How do you examine the position of whether something exists or not if you lack knowledge about it ?

    • @HadalStreetlights
      @HadalStreetlights 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      By experiment. This is why the default is that it doesn't exist. You can more easily falsify something's nonexistence than you can falsify something's existence.
      Especially given something that actually exists, like swans.
      I'm having trouble understanding how you're not getting this.
      How do you listen to music if you don't understand how pressure waves in the air translate into sound in our brains?

    • @mr7777leon
      @mr7777leon 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      To clarify,
      Would the null hypothesis for claim "George is asleep" be "George is not asleep"
      and for someone else claiming that "George is awake", "George is not awake?"

    • @HadalStreetlights
      @HadalStreetlights 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      That sounds right to me, but honestly, it's weird to me that we swapped examples from an existential question to whether someone is asleep or not, though I guess I can understand the utility of this example. You don't appear to make this mistake, but aware and asleep are not a true dichotomy.
      Interestingly, they make a great parallel to the god does/does not exist prongs of argument.
      A case could be made for George being awake, or asleep, but to argue that he is awake, you would have to disprove the null hypothesis, which is that he isn't.
      This is all complicated by what we mean when we say "Awake" and "Asleep," (consider the sleepwalker, sleeptalker, sleepfucker, and sleepeater)

  • @bojackson3073
    @bojackson3073 ปีที่แล้ว

    There's no reason to have a null hypothesis and it is not the default position. The default position is "idk" 😐

    • @SansDeity
      @SansDeity  ปีที่แล้ว

      Sorry.. but you're wrong and must have missed something.

  • @ronjohnson4566
    @ronjohnson4566 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    my brain lost most of its plasticity after that. there are purple cows and purple rains and purple hearts, but until you see it in the bible it doesn't really become reality? please discuss.

  • @zendean5207
    @zendean5207 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Excellent.

  • @daithiocinnsealach1982
    @daithiocinnsealach1982 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thus is why agnosticism is the default position for me. I do not know how universes are made. I do not know if any gods exist. I have no reason to believe they exist or do not exist.

  • @xcosmiccrunchx
    @xcosmiccrunchx 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    So begin your claims with "as far as I know" or "I could be wrong but" and you can say whatever you want. You make reason sound subjective.

  • @TaraBryn
    @TaraBryn 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    If the null hypothesis claims that there's no connection between things until it's observed, and you claim the null hypothesis claims the default position is there's no connection between purple swans and things that exist, isn't it equally valid to say the null hypothesis claims the default position should also be that there's also no connection between purple swans and things that don't exist? If we take this into the realm of theism then, it seems the null hypothesis is advocating agnosticism as the default position until there's overall evidence one way or another.

    • @steveo4400
      @steveo4400 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Tara Stahler The logical absolute of Gods existence is that God either exists or does not exist. There is no fence sitting with regards to truth. One can believe either way, but as soon as one claims to know either way then the burden of proof is on them.
      The Null hypothesis must be falsifiable. You cannot prove something doesn’t exist.

  • @stevejpm1
    @stevejpm1 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    come to Dawlish South Devon, there are loads of black swans.

  • @KaiHenningsen
    @KaiHenningsen 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    I think I'd actually disagree about what the Black Swan fallacy means.
    I'd explain it as "It's not that we *know* that there are no black swans. However, given that we have only seen white swans, it is _reasonable to believe_ that there are no black swans - as long as you keep in mind that we might discover one at any time."
    And that's how I'd describe my beliefs about god(s): Given that I've seen exactly zero evidence for the existence of (supernatural) gods, it is reasonable to believe there isn't any, and that is what I believe - until I find evidence to the contrary. (You could expand that to the supernatural in general, and it would be just as true.)
    Now I've thought for a while that "god" is actually a sort of title in religions, instead of a term that has a definition that works for everything called "god". Every religion has their own rules about what does and does not get that title. One religion's pantheon member is another's angel, or any number of other descriptions. So the above works for any supernatural god; if you ask me about a non-supernatural, I'd have to look at the details to figure it out.

    • @feasted2941
      @feasted2941 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Kai Henningsen forget what i said i misread what u stated

  • @greenjelly01
    @greenjelly01 7 ปีที่แล้ว +17

    That shirt DOES have a lot to do with infant mortality rates in third world countries, if it was made with slave labor in highly unsafe work conditions in some village in Bangladesh.

    • @BurakovAS
      @BurakovAS 7 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      actually, no. you can make a case of correlation between these two, but that's as far as you can go. the shirt itself directly does not have anything to do with infant mortality rates.

    • @flyingsodwai1382
      @flyingsodwai1382 7 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Are you saying infants are working in sweat shops or can you demonstrate a correlation between sweat shops and infant mortality

    • @MRayner59
      @MRayner59 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Your assertion is pretty flawed. For one thing, it could be far more convincingly argued that infant mortality rates in third-world countries would be even higher when there is no viable economic base such as that provided by the garment industry, notwithstanding it's reputation for exploitative labour practices and unsafe work conditions.

    • @bowlsallbroken
      @bowlsallbroken 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      You ever try to force an infant to run a sewing machine? It's really frustrating, believe me!

  • @TheSpaceInvaderer
    @TheSpaceInvaderer 7 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    "there's no connection between salami sandwiches and claustrophobia." how do you come up with these

    • @dannysnee4945
      @dannysnee4945 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      There's no connection between Quokka penises and broken coffee makers

    • @k1ln1k37
      @k1ln1k37 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      *begins extensive research adventure*

  • @quakers200
    @quakers200 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    A swan the size of an elephant is not feasible just on the grounds of physics. There are no people the size of a paperclip. It is just not possible to cram enough neurons in that small a space that would function like a human being. No baseball player is going to throw a thousand mile an hour fastball. There is no undiscovered continent the size of Australia out there. So there are many things we can know just on the basis of a understanding of the world as it is. In the world of philosophy of course there are these thought experiments constructed to show that we can know nothing with certainty, that we are just brains in a jar being fed unending illusions that we are people walking the earth and having real experiences and so on.

  • @ronnieknotts2376
    @ronnieknotts2376 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Way too complicated. Missed the target audience completely. If this was a book you'd put it down and stream some Liam Neeson. What is needed is effective communication... not pomposity.

  • @jloren4647
    @jloren4647 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    I thought this was pretty much called the red house fallacy.

  • @evalore9498
    @evalore9498 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    I read the title and got intrigued because I assumed there was a logical fallacy named after an Aronofsky psychodrama. Oh well.

  • @Derickjw
    @Derickjw 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Please write a book!

  • @hammalammadingdong6244
    @hammalammadingdong6244 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I eat my salami sandwiches locked in a closet.

  • @ajr993
    @ajr993 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Matt, I don't agree with your position that we can only hold things in science tentatively true. We can say that scientific theories are maximally true within the bounds of the framework they establish. I don't understand why you hold we can have more confidence in a logically necessary argument rather than a scientific theory. Scientific theories mostly rely on mathematically necessary arguments when you accept the mathematical premises similar to how a logically necessary argument rely on their own premises. At some point all of those premises are pre suppositions, and the distinguishing factor of scientific theories is that on top of the mathematically necessary arguments, they also have physical evidence justifying them. So I actually hold scientific theories to a higher regard than a logically necessary argument as long as you don't take a scientific theories outside of the realm that its capable of addressing--for example applying the theory of relatively to a black hole leads to infinities.

  • @theoperson1905
    @theoperson1905 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    So I'm trying to understand this... When I say, "I dont believe Jesus returned to life because people don't come back to life and there is no evidence in the vast tomes of biology to suggest it a possibility":
    Why is that NOT still a black swan fallacy?

    • @applicableapple3991
      @applicableapple3991 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I think it's because this is backed by science and not just by observation

  • @jmm1233
    @jmm1233 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    oh great , someone going to genetically breed a purple elephant sized swan now

  • @captainmorgan2307
    @captainmorgan2307 หลายเดือนก่อน

    No true black swans exist in a deck of cards because no one has observed it. Since no true black swans exist in a deck of cards neither do white swans exist in the deck. That's not my opinion, it's science!
    This is the reasoning I deal with on a daily basis.

  • @The1stMrJohn
    @The1stMrJohn 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great video
    E-PLURIBUS-UNUM
    ;~)

  • @johnbalfour8157
    @johnbalfour8157 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    If I understand you correctly, you're assertion is that the atheist position should be based on the Null hypothesis? That being the case, it seems a bit slippery to state that the burden of proof rests on the positive claims of the existence of God, yet to frame the negation as simply a default position e.g., no purple swans the size of elephants exist until such time as it is proven to be true, therefore requiring no burden of proof. Your position runs the risk of being amorphous if not sophistic in my view, and it sounds more like a recasting agnosticism to appear to be a positive claim while escaping the terminology, than presenting some new way of thinking about the argument against the existence of God.

  • @AlbertGuilmont
    @AlbertGuilmont 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Two dudes believe that there are no black swans.

  • @mackhomie6
    @mackhomie6 ปีที่แล้ว

    all right. who else is stupid?

  • @APEXCARPIO
    @APEXCARPIO 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    i think that your shirt probably does not have anything to do with infant mortality rates in third world countries, but i still think we should probably burn it anyway.

  • @jobe4279
    @jobe4279 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    4 Black Swans disliked this video.

  • @Self-replicating_whatnot
    @Self-replicating_whatnot 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Very edifying video, but i feel that you left a crucial detail out. Let me ask you this - why do you hate god?

    • @YY4Me133
      @YY4Me133 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      :D

    • @PhysiKarlz
      @PhysiKarlz 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Self-replicating whatnot
      Plain and simple. That god has a better

    • @cul9193
      @cul9193 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      It might help if you were more specific - which god model do you have in mind?

    • @antonkottorp3148
      @antonkottorp3148 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Self-replicating whatnot loool

    • @daithiocinnsealach1982
      @daithiocinnsealach1982 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      I actually chuckled at that.

  • @timothymulholland7905
    @timothymulholland7905 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    The conclusion if you see 10 white swans is one. If you see 1000, it is another. The probability that the next swan will be white is much greater.

    • @Griexxt
      @Griexxt 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      You mean it's greater if you've seen 1000? If there are black swans in the population you study, I don't think that's correct. The probability of seeing a black swan next in that case will increase for every white one you've observed.

    • @davewalsh2717
      @davewalsh2717 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      The probability of observing a white swan in this scenario will increase if and only if the observed white swans are removed from the population and there are, in fact, black swans extant in the population.

  • @godsservant8969
    @godsservant8969 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Matt Dillahunty: GOD IS REAL AND HIS NAME IS JESUS!!!
    BE BAPTIZED IN JESUS NAME!!! ACTS 2:38

    • @Griexxt
      @Griexxt 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      He was. It didn't do anything.

    • @cliffisaac29
      @cliffisaac29 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Griexxt Or did it?! You don't know!

    • @Griexxt
      @Griexxt 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      It's the null hypothesis.

    • @godsservant8969
      @godsservant8969 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Griexxt: Why don't you look up Acts 2:38 for yourself and let me know what you think, friend? The POWER of God is contained within that scripture! Praying for you!

    • @godsservant8969
      @godsservant8969 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Griexxt: You are ill-informed, friend. Matt Dillahunty has NOT had the Acts 2:38 experience according to his background. If he would have the Acts 2:38 experience, then it would change his life FOREVER! Hallelujah!