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Even though only 1 hero got a buff, there was still enough change to warrant a new list and discuss the issues or strengths the heroes have at this point. We still need a hero balance patch though :(
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![[DEFINITIVE] ENEMY TIER LIST - PART 1 | Darkest Dungeon 2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UL2tkhy--FY/mqdefault.jpg)
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Shuff you promised me you would place Hellion in S when you did a remake of the tierlist. Just for that, I'm writing Audrey out of my fanfic
I think heals would benefit a lot from having a floor in this game. Something like "heals for 30% or 15 HP, whichever is higher".
15 HP is maybe a lot for a floor, but I get what you mean
See you at next week's Hero Balance patch!
Shuffle before: Vestal is starting to become proactive in this game
Shuffle now: Vestal is still a healbot and not a very good one
Vestal never disappoints ;)
Judging by how she was designed for DD2, I’d say that Vestal’s healing abilities are intentionally supplementary rather than being the defining part of her kit (since PD is now the dedicated healer). I’ve always gotten more value out of spending consecration tokens on Judgement than Divine Grace. Although I will say that the cooldowns on her healing abilities are a little excessive, and that Mantra isn’t very good generally.
I’d rather they buff a number of her supportive abilities so that they can be used from all ranks on every build (e.g. Ministrations, Divine Comfort, Mantra etc). Alongside buffs to Hand of Light and Mace Bash, I would finally be able to justify using her outside of rank 4 lmao.
Shuffle: damage is the main thing that matters, tank paths aren't that great
Also Shuffle, betrayer: poet might be Leper's best path
well thats cuz leper chan has so mucg dmg that losing a bit still puts him in a position to still be effective
@@RookieREXthat plus his dmg is so unreliable compared to the other dmg characters so the only other way to play him is tank
@@mr.jeffmann376 lol yeahhh, my boi needs some social distanced love
Dismas should be in a special tier called "Dev Bias" because he's the best, handsomest, smartest, etc, etc (*enumerates an infinity of qualities without critical thinking).
Jokes aside, i cannot wait for Hero balance patch. DD2's combat system is perfect and the sky is the limit, in terms of making Heroes (and Enemies) fun and powerful.
At the end of this video I am really astonished to learn that Vestal is an actual selectable character instead of a placeholder for another future good character as I thought
Hey Shuff. I used to honestly dislike the Poet Leper, but recently it dawned on me that the damage build Leper is just too inconsistent and requires wayyy too much setup. Poet, on the other hand, is in my view the best tank in the game. He's completely move and stun resistant, and since i don't use him for damage, only for tanking, i can start battles with Withhold, and then Intimidate every turn. This Poet doesn't care about auto-blind, doesn't generate additional blinds (as intimidate is the only offensive skill he uses), he starts each turn with a block token, and gains 2 taunt tokens a turn (even on misses). Getting the uncommon seashell and/or simple flower makes him nigh-damage-immune. Or the chireurgon item which removes dots, at the cost of -50% healing from skills - he already gets +50% healing from skills from the path, so solemnity still works just fine. Poet has grown on me, a lot.
Skipped to the end and leper is at B, what the hell Shuffle!
Leper miss, Leper bad
Watch the vid :(
@@ShuffleFM I will but I'm still upset!!!
Flashing daggers should have the 25% -> 33% apply combo chance that harvest and dragonfly has, and a good damage/crit buff to compete with those two moves
I understand that this is a comprehensive tier list that takes all paths into consideration before grading the heroes, but if we only look at the best (broken) paths then I'd argue PD and HWM are currently S tier.
Hey Shuff, picked up this game awhile ago after loving DD1 and stumbled upon your content. Feels good to be here. Keep it up!
Took some time but I'm glad people finally started to realize how desperate of a buff Vestal needs. At least with RW once you've been to the Sprawl and have some masteries, she can deal some crazy high dmg (the typical dot synergies are still nuts and burn trinkets are even stronger than blight). Vestal doesn't scale with anything. She sucks at the start of the run and continues to suck all the way until the act boss. Heals are okayish (after Divine Grace mastery before it's feels like the threshold is 3 hp) but her main weakness is the absolute lack of dmg. This game is already very dmg focused, but on top there are huge output differences in dmg between heroes/paths. And by big I mean 300-400% difference between a PD vs a Vestal on a boss fight.
A balance patch is more than overdue at that point.
her only good skill is consecration of light for the crit, besides that, she is pretty mediocre and her heals have huge cooldowns or require set up.
@@Calfa2xI think upgraded hand of light skill from confessor path is solid. She can debuff frontline constantly thanks to debuff piercing from the path, that tiny damage knocks defensive tokens and strenght token helps mace bash. Her other skills are not that bad either. Sanctuary is a panic button (plus stress healing when upgraded) illumination is basically highway robbery (again unique to confessor) and I dont need to talk about consecration of light. She might not be most strong character of the bunch but I don't think she is a C tier character.
@@Not_a_Doctor_ Well, you are trading a good frontline character for a mediocre debuffer which does no damage. If you want a good debuffer, go with new occultist on ritualist mode.
The other problem is that she isn't really good on healing herself, you really don't want her to take damage which makes sanctuary and frontline positions awkward.
Her low damage, long cooldown heals and average utility is what makes her C.
@@Calfa2x
You are right about her damage. Her direct damage is mediocre at best and damage is king but consecration of light works well with raw damage dealers which usually cannot generate tokens their own. I am talking about warlock occultist, hellion, even highwayman who can generate tokens. Dancing teams are valid choice too if you can set it up. Tho you can't change speed factor too much unlike first game. Semi dancing teams works fine I think. You can use mace bash or judgement every third turn which hits fine when upgraded. Still, not the best damage but she has other skills to use before third turn you know. She has good enough tempo I think.
You are also right about her healing abilities. Divine comfort is a okay skill others are utter garbage.
Both MAA and flag outclasses other heroes and do similar jobs but when you pick one other one is usually overkill. You can pick MAA/Flag and vestal which is better than MAA and flag duo in my opinion. You need more offensive backline in both cases. Also Its kinda boring to play same heroes everytime. She can roughly fill their role. Again, she is not the best but she is not at the same tier as runaway who feels like worse plague doctor without any nuance.
@@Not_a_Doctor_ I am taking her CoL into account, but it's not as good as it seems. For example, if you buff a Hellion Wicked Hack you get an average of 5.23 dmg per round (~26 dmg in total over 5 rounds). A mastered vanilla Noxious Blast on an Alchemist does 27 dmg total (usually fully consumed in 2 turns on a boss fight). Throw in some decent trinkets and a Favorite Toy and it's up to 32-57. Let's consider now that you can spam Noxious every single round (unlike CoL which has 3/5 cd) and that you can utilize combat items that benefit from blight trinkets and favorite toy on top. Suddenly you have 50-100 dmg per action on the Alchemist for the first 2 turns and the dmg will actually be fully utilized by turn 3/4 due to multiple actions of the boss.
The best case scenario for Vestal is to buff a Leper Chop which yields a 8.5 dmg per turn (42 dmg in total). But even then it's still miles behind a spamable Noxious on an Alchemist and still suffers from the same issue that it takes 5 rounds to fully do it's dmg (if rng didn't mess with you and you lost a buff due to speed/shuffle/stun/blind).
Wicked Hack is very much on the average of what you can expect from decent moves to yield. There's also not much difference in CoL performance if the target has crit/dmg trinkets hence my statement that she basically doesn't scale when compared to other characters. Another issue is her low speed. At least the dot classes are decently fast to outspeed the enemies sometimes. Except for Tempest, you are almost always losing a whole round of buffs on Vestal because she will be acting last.
When is the DD2 drip tier list??
Now that shuffle has made a video RH is contractually obligated to buff/nerf half the cast.
I think the devs want to move away from stalling fights to heal up, stress down etc like was done in DD1. Thats why heals have thresholds. Even the jester stressheal requires 5+ stress.
The vestal removing her own consecrations with mantra isnt helping her either. Why use a path that only gives you the buff (the stacking one) based on number of consecrations out and then giving her a mantra that removes them?
These tier lists are good. You should definitely make more of them.
About to be a tier list week
From your streams I already figured Vestal was going down, but I still expected B tier instead of C. It's not without reason, but damn, how's she fallen from her reception.
In my opinion, it's not even that the heals are too restrictive - Though that's definitely a part of it - But also how insanely passive the character is. Sure, you can argue she transfers damage to other heroes through Consecration, but when you need her to actually hit something she absolutely can't (Unless you are prepared to burn your carefully saved healing tokens, and even then, only once). Compare this to PD or OCC, her usual competitors, who have just one or two good healing buttons that do well in keeping you alive turn-by-turn, and can spend their time debuffing, DoTing and even nuking enemies outside of that. Vestal feels like a sitting duck during short fights, and a very restricted character during long ones. I hope they can knock her restrictions down across the board sometime.
Well said. The poor nun needs a huge buff or a redesign so she can finally do some damage. Bottom of the tier list is kinda expected considering there is no other hero who does this little dmg and with the current directions of the game (more dmg from enemies) the dmg requirement for the team is now higher too. You don't want to be sitting for too many turns and soak stress and >20 cits from a Chirurgeon / Collector / Death.
I want that hero rebalance so that Shuffle can remake his "How to play Occultist" video. Solid tier list though.
I mean Runaway is obviously really bad in sprawl but honestly it's not end of the world with arsonist path. You don't have that much issues with burning enemies, hey I even managed to easly beat Librarian with her, while upgrading firefly instead of smokescreen by mistake, and while having bulwark MAA, aka say goodbye to backline dmg
Man I love these vids. About to take Flag on run lol good stuff
I'd love to see Divine Comfort get changed on some of the Vestal Paths.
I agree on hellion being bad on other paths besides ravager but I don't think she should be on B-tier.
She has one good path and 5 skills which work great for that path, she is light years better than leper and her damage is the highest in the game.
I think she should be A-tier just for that, hard to kill character which basically deletes rank 1-2-4, she almost always gets you 4 vs 3 on the first turn.
So what you're saying is...
Plague Doctor, Flagelant, Man at Arms, and Jester might be a hilarious team
It would be very strong!
Definitely not a chapter 2 team
Thank you Shuffle. I'm still wondering why Red hook are not changing anything or just change like 1 thing after like 6 months
I used a controlled burn + backdraft Bonnie for my Grand Slam, was pretty great.
But good list
I still remember when I said Poet was the best path in a comment during the strawpoll in my opinion, I am glad you came around on that Shuff
I feel like everyone sleeps on Wyrd, even at base with no trinkets/ritualist bonus
It's best used at the end of combat, casting it once or twice, and if you roll the bleed you can just end the fight. It makes it so healing someone for 8 and bleeding them for 9 is much less of a factor
Also, Occultist is good at creating those stalling situations in the first place with Pull, leaving some backline enemy as the last one alive, locked into their worst attack. Making use of this when necessary means you'll enter the average fight at much safer HP levels, which means you'll be at less risk of being screwed over by Wyrd's variance when at low health. You can typically even avoid the stalling penalty if you're efficient enough with it
I think Vestal is amazing, she constantly had done very decent damage along with the full team heals, the main issue is that she doesn't have a reliable single target heal.
Shuffle what would be your flawless act 1-5 currently? I’m sure it might change with the DLC coming out.
Pd jes hwm maa still. Dlc might change that
Confessor path for Vestal needs to rework the position requirement / hit for skills. What kind of front liner can't use half their skills in the frontline and even get locked out of moves in position 1?!
Abyssal Artillery with unchecked power is what Blinding Gas used to be and is the best cc in the game rn
Do you still think the best overall team is PD / HWM / Jester / MaA (never know which direction I'm supposed to name them) or would you make some changes now? For example putting in flag, another S tier? Or does he not fit in that well?
I still think it's the best team. People swap in flag over dismas but it doesn't get the rank 4 damage so I think it's slightly worse.
I dont take vestal for heal, she is token generator, drop consecrations and take a path that generates str tokens on hit on random ally close to you - so both pos 3 and pos 1 usually constantly have str tokens.
Hey what do you think about making a list for the best skills in the game? Maybe top 10 or 20 if ya feeling bold lol I personally feel that Battlefield Medicine is the single best skill in the game. Well if you drop the vid I'll def watch and comment
Wow I actually think the placement is dead on accurate. Though I would prob move both B/C tier down one because of how much of a gap there is between the good and bad characters. Huge difference between A and B tier
I really liked the way they reworked vestal at first but it became obvious immediately that she has too many buttons to press in a game with this kind of action economy.
Choice=good.
I feel validated watching this, bonnie has barely any use for 2 of her paths (survivor and orphan) and it is sad cause she is the completely new character we got, but I also think leper needs changes, apart from poet he just asks for too much from your team, he NEEDS a dedicated combo dealer for him, but then multiple skills might consume that combo to do 1 extra bleed, so everyone has to be checked not to run combo consuming stuff, he needs the team to fix his positioning, his base and upgraded chop and hew crit is 5%, also hew does less damage than single target skills that are already considered to be in the low end of damage, his initial blind can't be resisted (really don't get that one, as similar effects are all resistable unless I'm missing something), he also need someone to cleanse his dots because he can't and on top of that has the worst dot resist in this game, honestly everytime I don't run poet, it's like, ok I guess I'll just use helion, can cleanse hew own debuff (winded) with a skill that actually does something (toe to toe), damage is lower, but crit is higher and damage FLOOR is higher, which is very important, her self heal is better, can stress heal the team, can heal self from all dots, can fix her positioning while rooting herself, can reach the 4th enemy, and best of all, cares not for the rest of your team, combo ? she dont need it, but bonus damage and bleed res pierce, dot cleanse ? she has, damage buff ? she has, movement ? she has, reach ? she has, stress heal for herself and team too ? she has, I'ts frustrating, specially when leper got.... well bash and break, bash is fine I guess, break mathematically failes to outdamage chop when hitting block tokens (yes, that is right, specially on tempest) so it only does it's job on the buffed block tokens, I think he needs just a little self reliance other than heals and stress heals, which will probably be outdamaged by dots anyway, oh also frontline utility is so heavily dominated by man-at-arms that I don't even think it's worth mentioning that part, I would actually be happy if leper has some type of nerf, but gets an adjustment to be able to play the game on his terms, instead of relying on his team, worst part is that tempest legit carries a whole run start to end if you bring all he lacks, but I don't think it's a fair trade.
I personally think Runaway is really nice! I like to run her with plague doctor and highwayman, I run her in rank 2 with highwayman rank 1 to shuffle moves like point-blank and dragonfly to tear up the enemy front line, while plague can work out the backline! rank 3 needs to be a character who can shuffle, I usually go Man at Arms for the versatility, but I had success with jester and grave robber as well!
I used this team to take on grand slam!
havent played this game in ages. flagellant and occultist are good now? imma have to check this game out!
Flag has always been good imo, but occultist is very good now :)
@@ShuffleFMi love flag, he is like a tank made out of glass but that glass is bullet proof
My truest purest most honest unfiltered reaction
Runaway is reverse PD. You just ugrade dragonfly and kill the front 2 ranks in 2 turns
I get you maths on occultist heal however hopefully if your healing your a few rounds into combat and should be close to ending it and then the bleed is irrelavent because if you heal someone for 7 bleed 3 for 3 rounds and then that characters turn happens they take 3 and end the fight they've net healed 4 it's weakness is it can heal for so low it's dead turn, the bleed is just whatever
I disagree with the judgement of Runaway. Viewing her as a strictly backline hero is what limits her most of the time, it is true tho that you kinda have to go out of your way to go testing with her, but i've found that she is a very good dancer in Jester teams. My favourite way of using her tho is starting her in rank 1 with Dragonfly with a tank backing her up, and dealing a huge chunk of dmg with Backdraft on turn 2 or 3. Moreover, Smokescreen upgraded is the GOAT. There is so much difference between the upgraded and the unupgraded versions it can easily run for the best upgrade in the game title.
I love survivor runaway for reasons I can't understand
A somewhat weird list (skipped to the end to see the placements, now listening the reasons). Will update later. I do like your revisioning though, DD2 has a lot to offer still and it would be terrible to see it not receiving more updates due to the unity situation
I'll now comment about the doubts I have on this list:
Runaway is nowhere close a C tier character. She's A, would be S if her paths were better. Arsonist is the only real useful one. Smokescreen is the most CRACKED ability after Encore and her kit is also great. Cauterize is basically what divine grace was in DD1, because EVERY SINGLE REGION applies bleed for some reason. Only the tangle goes "light" on bleed and even then it's still serious between crossbows and biting blades. Firefly is a great tool. Hearthlight is a good ability too, don't undervalue it! Absolutely great to remove dodge tokens from the myriad enemies that have them. Plus, counters all the stealth monsters and helps the entire team by having premium blind removal, which isn't common outside of items.
Occultist was A before and is S now. Hands down the best support in the game. Before, unchecked power was trash but he was still the greatest. Ritualist was the best path and still is, IDK why you would even consider warlock or the other one. He's now S because for some reason they just decided to throw his entire kit to the moon. His healing was never meant to be run as main but now you can also do that. Unchecked power is still a meme, unless you run malediction, which is a broken skill. I'm glad it's usable now because of rounds but it makes no sense that it can trigger off itself and if you use it twice it also stacks. Like wtf is that.
Though you'd never run occultist for damage outside of bosses. Abyssal artillery, both curses, binding shadows to finish off front/attack the front, wyrd. Ritualist ensures everything goes smoothly. Plus the vulnerable token is actually good for him, since you're likely to face the general when running occultist (as artillery can hit root and him simultaneously) and footman's grog is perfect for occ. Doubles with chaotic offering for bosses which is the only time you would use unchecked power. I know a lot of people disagree but it's just how it is. Occultist is not meant to damage with stars or the like.
Vestal: vestal is the only trash hero. Straight to D tier. Literally useless. Has no place in any comp, there's always something better.
Leper: B? Wut? Leper is A, all his paths are good "but" he's the classic hero who needs support to shine the most. S with the proper team, A without. But only because he really really needs to fit into the team and not vice versa to be S. Otherwise he's "just" A, a tank that has great taunt+weak, self stress healing and self healing plus resistances. That's already a big list of good things but he's not MAA who can just decide to counter everything.
The one placement I really did not understand: GR in B? How? She has no weaknesses. She has the best path in the game bar none (Nightsworn). She has everything from damage to execution passing by stealth, self healing, self stress healing, ignores armor and dodge, generates a stupid amount of dodge, clears corpses while at it. She has an insane base crit rate and on top of that, for some reason she has access to AoE front damage that can instantly take down half HP (or kill when it crits lol). I totally disagree with the arguments presented and not only she's strong, she does not care about being shuffled which doubles her power against shambler and other amenities.
@@zenkichihitoyoshi9513 I mean there's gotta be some differentiation between S-D. If you want to place everything in S/A there's no point to make a tier list. For example, Occultist while finally good is not on the same level as a PD. Leper is decent, but he is not a MAA, Ravager or Flag. His self-sustain is certainly better (stress and hp) but his dmg is not reliable (for short fights) and his reach sucks. GR does have a weakness: huge dmg range and therefore unreliability. On top, a big chunk of her average dmg is coming from her high crit chance. But crit is just another layer of rng on top. If her combos or stealth guaranteed landing a crit she'd be great but as of now she is not as good as a Sharpshot or a Ravager. Also, her HP is dangerously low, especially on a Nightsworn or when playing on Infernal.
@@0rcd0c HP on GR literally doesn't matter. It's just so she can be brought to DD if you mess up, otherwise her being hit is a non issue. You're gonna use dead of night for normal fights and absinthe for bosses. Plenty of dodge to work with too.
There is differentiation. PD is not as good or versatile as MAA. Jester is in a tier of its own. Occultist was always good, even before, now he's just ridiculous. Leper is better then MAA or Flag when setupped and isn't when not setupped. Hence why he's "only" a good tank and reliable taunter/weakener stand-alone. You don't need damage on him all the time.
GR will consistently two shot enemies (or oneshot with crits). That's the important part. Rolling a 10 before a 22 does not matter as long as the thresholds are met. If a crack shot has 18 HP and I can do 9 to 16, it's literally the same whether I roll bad or good.
Leper's reach for intimidate is the entire field. We all agree that HWM is the overtuned one but it doesn't make her less of a fighter. In fact, you could run the duo together very, VERY well.
@@zenkichihitoyoshi9513 It seems your rating is based mostly on setup to make those heroes good, the problem is that there are better heroes that don't require setup and are immediately good.
You struggle the most in the first region, you don't have any setup to help you and the good heroes really shine in this scenario.
I mostly agree with shuffs assessment, I think hellion should be A but everything else is on point if you take into consideration the harder parts of the game.
@@zenkichihitoyoshi9513 PD has dmg scaling that no other hero can even come close to (except RW but it's a bit more clunky to pull off due to Shuff's mentioned reasons). You mentioned Leper being great with set-up. A PD can dish out 80-150 worth of dots (average values not max) on turn 1 with an Encore - that's just 2 actions and 1 set of combat items. If you are lucky with an Otherwordly Fragment we are talking about 150-200. That's literally a dead boss and all you have to do is wait until it does its actions. It's hard to do a direct comparison to a MAA because both do different things but an Alchemist is just nuts in terms of dmg while a MAA is the best tank+utility in the game. New Malediction is good but it's just not on the same level of op scaling (trinkets + memory + path + combat items all working in tandem) like the Alchemist/Arsonist paths.
Alchemist Noxious is 27 without trinkets. With trinkets it's 40-50. And her trinkets can be abused with a variety of different "throwable" combat items that proc additional dots or enhance the dots on the combat items.
Malediction is 30-36 per round with 2 boss action but it requires turn 1 CO. So not only does it put less dot per round but it's also less frontloaded dots and can't be abused with combat items since most of them don't deal dmg to proc it. PD deals much more dmg and still has the best heals in the game. So even after the buffs there is a clear difference between a PD and an Occ. Which doesn't mean Occ is bad, not at all, but Alchemist is still op.
I don't know what skill does 9-16 on Aubrey but my Bloodthirsty GR with mastered Throw Dagger is doing 7-11 (17 crit) or with Glint 10-14 (21 crit). So there is a chance she'd have to throw 2-3 if unlucky (or when she is in pos4 or the Crackshot is in pos4). If she is the designated hero to deal with pos 4 and she rolls low, it's just painful to sit around and see all the 6's and 7's and the enemy still being alive.
Occ and GR are finally good after the buffs but they are not on the same level/tier of op like their respective contenders hence the difference in placing.
Vestal’s heal being so bad, I think, if they bring her DD1 style heal back (still keep Conviction or CD) then she would just be barely worth bringing
Cmon.. we all know that leper is the best character of all time easy s++++ tier
So basically lose all speed bonus and penalties is needed
Yeah, honestly I feel the same.
If you want to play another Great game similar to DD2 you should try Star Renegades.
Think I played it a year ago. Very cool game.
I think leper is much better now, 'cuz u can run tempest or poet all the road to the mountain and then swap his path to monarch.
Ive played only a little back in EA, but hearing stuff from high lvl player, like "only 1 playable path" looks like dd2 stil has balance issues?
Every path is playable in the sense that you're not signing up to lose by picking a bad path. Thing is a lot of heroes have 1 path that just is far better/more consistent than the other 2, which is certainly an issue.
I think you mean Leper is SSS tier but the rest its cool... >:D
anybody else think the dd2 occultist looks like shuffle in a turban? i swear they did it on purpose
Not really. Shuff has a rounded face while Occ has a very thin face and a very long nose.
Balance is really hurting the replayability of this game. There are only really a handful of characters you should ever play if you're a minmaxer
No crusader 😢
Okay so, why do people say demon and deamon are promounced the same? They are not, they arent even the same thing
Hello, I am here to complain.
AAAAAHHHH!!!! ONLY HAVE 1 TOEAR!!!! Have 100 TIEARS!!!!
Complaining finished.
@shufflefm please keep your face on upper left corner of the video. it'll help a lot ;-)
thank you
My bad lol. Forgot to move it
Hellion will always be S tier in my heart :(...
Really awesome mobile game
????
I have just tried to listen to your video while doing something and its impossible. you talk about every ability and how good or bad it is but you require the listener to know exactly what the ability does. as someone who hasnt played the game a lot this means that 90% of the time i have no idea what you are talking about and why
If I discussed everything in detail it'd be a 5 hour video. I assume if someone cares enough to watch a tier list they have some experience with the character, or they watched my guides :P
Unlike the first game, the story in this game is irrelevant. And 50% of the skills are useless.
A ritualist occultist suddenly outstaged the warlock