ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2024
- Stay safe out there guys.
In this video I cover the toxic gachikoi culture surrounding VTubers and VTuber agencies such as Nijisanji, Hololive, and VShojo, as well as give my own personal experience on what its like to be an indie VTuber in the current landscape.
[Timestamps]
0:00 VTuber anecdotes
2:44 Intro
3:41 Why I won't join an agency
4:56 Agencies Rely on Parasocial Relationships
6:24 Waifu and idol culture
8:11 the Gachikoi appeal formula
14:08 Is it really the talent's choice?
15:38 The consequences
16:09 Tokoyami Towa
16:25 Yozora Mel
17:25 Mano Aloe
19:40 Uruha Rushia
21:58 Calliope Mori
25:35 Vox Akuma
28:31 Ouro Kronii
30:30 The consequences Pt. 2
31:29 Indie VTubers
33:48 Serious talk time
37:28 Why be a VTuber?
38:27 The takeaway
40:08 Conclusion
40:26 Takanashi Kiara's Advice
Credits: pastebin.com/XvzZKHvy - บันเทิง
![[VTuber History] How Agency VTubers Found their Footing through Lore](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Uw_g_dRAEFA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[VTuber History] How Agency VTubers Found their Footing through Lore](/img/tr.png)
![บุกร้านไอศกรีม VJ วุ้นเส้น !!!! [ดูคลิปเต็มหน้าช่อง] #Short | PANG ORNHIRA](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/g549nEhKZdc/mqdefault.jpg)
I treat VTubers the same way I treat the Vinesauce guys like Joel and Vinny; I watch them for the funnies, and nothing more than that.
Good taste in streamers. I too watch the funny vinesauce guys for the laughs. I can’t imagine becoming a vinesauce gachikoi though 🙊
Its why I like Tempus right now. Dez emulates a bit of that divine Jerma chaos, Vesper is a boomer that has relatable stuff and cool stories, Axel fits more of that idol complex and sings like a champ but is still an interesting idiot, and Altare is an awkward mess that does bait me a little closer to that fujo fantasy but is certainly still an enjoyable watch.
They remind me of Game Grumps, Seananners/Chilled/Gassy and others, and those Achievement Hunter fellas. Good days, but for a new age.
To hell with Idol culture. I watched Jerma work a clown show for damn near a decade now and if anything ever got in the way of his creativity, he wouldn't be half the man he is.I don't even find him all that attractive.
To hell with Idol Culture. Kill the gachikois. Burn it all down. You can be successful without pandering to the crowd, whoever or whatever you are. Work on your talents, sociability, and sheer presence as an unfiltered human being. The best are built on their personality, their looks (virtual or otherwise) are secondary.
Hey guys, VSauce here
@@noellesato311 yeah, same. Love Tempus, none of that BS - just bros, bro-ing out. I sometimes watch Kronii, because she doesn’t take shit from her audience and doesn’t feed into the para-social stuff as much as some of the others.
@@TheCCBoi Rushia did that, and look at what the jp fanbase did to her when they thought she had a bf.
I'm ashamed to say that the real reason I wouldn't audition for it is because I'll have to work with whatever vtuber model/identity they assign me. If I was an indie vtuber, I'd be waaay too attached to my indie model and lore, I couldn't give it up just to so the new wave has a coherent aesthetic 😤
Very understandable. I really like being a fluffy bat myself! That being said, I have rebranded completely in the past and though it takes some getting used to, and you may miss your old persona, it's still very doable!
@@YamAlbat I suppose so, and in many ways i can imagine myself being say, a tentacle monster, or reapers assistant, but my vtuber persona (draft rn) represents both my asexuality and my switch-sadism, both things that I struggled to identify/accept while growing up. I guess mine is a very specific case tho, hahaha
Omg same!
This is true and I think it’s because the model/characters we make are personas of ourselves. We usually create them based on our identity and how we see/feel about ourselves and life (at least that’s how I made mine) and having a different model is like changing identities which can be difficult! I think this is why Niji auditions specify that you show yourself play a character because that’s what it could take if needed. I actually admire the talents because I can just imagine how much it takes for them to do what they do!
Kuzuha from Niji JP was apparently an indie before joining, yet he still kept his model-it just received an upgrade. So, I think you could still that if you want. 🤷🏾♀️
I feel like people need to remember that being an agency vtuber is literally a job. A lot of indies try to turn their vtubing hobby into a job. You've laid out what the job requirements are very well. However, the only way to change how the "company" works /at this point/ is from the inside.
For what it's worth, Holostars EN is doing a damn fine job molding the scenery on the EN side. They have the typical pros and cons of being agency vtubers, but they don't actively appeal to gachikois or rely on yabai content for success. Their appeal largely comes from their unique personalities and, very awesomely, their friendship. It's pretty refreshing.
Or you stream with an Avatar like Pikame and Ironmouse like after Gia Online but before VR chat
The Forefathers of cute anime girl avatar shit posting Wolfychu,Nyanners,and Munibug(Senzawa) all predate Kazuma a.I. and adopted Vtuber models of their jpeg/gif avatar and streaming on Twitch.......you either like their content or you dont as they dont pander
@@FrarmerFrank as Munibug as senzawa old friend
I agree! HoloTempus honestly gave me A LOT of hope for the future of the industry. In fact, I had a whole section about creators who are changing the status quo that I cut for the sake of keeping this video under an hour. HoloTempus was one of the groups I wanted to talk about there!
Magni was quick on the gun to interact and gain friendship with Scarle, broke the collab ban early, and many of the Tempus boys also play offstream with NijiEN members, and won't hide this fact. It also comes the other way around, with Ren actively interacting and supporting other Vtubers (indie or not) and addressing the hate just a week after debut!
Tempus and ILUNA are hitting the EN side like a storm, and hopefully they will finally break these molds. Also, happy both waves have huge D&D nerds LMAO
@@FrarmerFrank This person keeps trying to bait people into harassing the stag beetle, why.
As kind and supportive as this community can be, it can also turn petty and vindictive extremely quickly whenever one of the talents says or does something that breaks the illusion. I've noticed this more and more as time goes on. It feels like whenever a Vtuber makes a minor social faux pas, there's a huge backlash of people making tons of assumptions about them and spreading unsubstantiated rumors.
Which is why I really respect how Calli stands up for herself when chat is clearly out of line, and how she seems to go out of her way to break idol culture barriers by collabing with Holostars or creators that aren't even part of Hololive. That takes a ton of courage, especially when your audience is that huge
Yeah that’s for sure! The community surprises me on what little thing will create all that backlash we see. When Demondice delivered us her Shut Up, Get Happy album I HONESTLY thought calli may graduate. Now I know that she just needs somewhere to let out all her feelings so that she can continue doing what she loves.
@@YamAlbat That album got me to buy her merch, and I never buy merch. Keeping it real means a lot more than GFE.
@@akira8393 Should have called them out, honestly. Trim the fat, to hell with the "money" they "give". Nobody should have to deal with the needy little stains on society for their fanbase.
Next time I see drama like hers I hope the person dealing with these assholes decides to just up and yell at them to take their damn sub and leave. The show of force might just bring in new subs anyways.
You want a good fanbase you can take pride in? Cull it down and make what's there comfortable and accommodating to actually good people.
Simple answer is like the video author you need to stop watching dramatubers or stay off of /vt/. Doing stuff like collabing with males is nothing new to Hololive. Sora did it, Fubuki did it, Matsuri did it, Roboco did it, Choco did it, Suisei did it, etc, etc. These sorts of videos try to paint a small subsection of unstable people that all content creators deal with as if they were part of an epidemic for vtuber agencies when that's not the case.
@@Helmir Pretty much. This video basically highlights the loud minority vs the silent majority (especially when dealing with the male/famale collabs "controversy")
When you were talking about the thing with Shoto and Vox, I was having war flashbacks of Takamori, a ship that literally stopped them from collaborating with others or having good relationships with anyone because they would immediately get the "you're cheating" messages.
Oh...so that's why that stopped.
That's sad, I really liked the takamori jokes. Unfortunate that people took it to such an extreme...
Yeah I remember the fallout of that… I’m glad both Calli and Kiara could cordially address it on their streams and voice their own opinions about it. Some of the fans just went too far with that one.
Calliope mori is just a beast she isn't new to hate and will keep pushing this is what agency needs people who won't apologize so easily.
I very much admire Calli’s bravery and boldness. I hope to get good at speaking up and standing my ground like she does!
@@YamAlbat She's a big inspiration to me too, for the same reason.
I don't personally mind shipping or lewdness, but I would be unhappy with people shipping me with someone uncomfortable with it.
I'm about as degenerate as anyone else on this godforsaken website, but I don't intend to make sexuality a feature of any of my content.
Partially because I find it a bit too cheap and easy, and partially because I feel like the vtuber landscape is already saturated with horniness.
Oddly enough it was the debut of Project Melody that opened my eyes to vtubing and inspired me to give it a try.
@Cordovan Splotch I’m glad to hear that you’re a creator that doesn’t mind being spicy but is also considerate of others who don’t like it as much. 😭 Brings me hope that there’s creators out there like that
Also she got also so much hate for releasing Off with their head which made some people mad Aka antis and she knew what she was doing. This makes calliope mori one of the brave vtubers to attack people who is hating her by her lyrics
@@haykao I still listen to that song at work a lot.
What sucks the most is a lot of us get deeply into waifu/husbando culture because we can't get friendships or romantic relationships in the first place.
It's understandable. I wish I showed more empathy towards the viewer in this video in hindsight. I wrote the script with my own experience in mind, but this comments section has opened my eyes to other perspectives. Thank you for sharing your own perspective, and I hope it gets better for you!
@@YamAlbat nah you're good! Everybody's experience is different. Plus this needs to be discussed because some people may just not be aware or need to be aware. Parasocial relationships just bankrupt its victims and make them feel more empty than they already do.
@@RoseB45 Its almost like we live in a world where men and women are having a hard time interacting in the real world. How weird, I wonder what could have caused this...
You know, I've been aware of this problem for a while but I just wanted to avoid it cause I genuinely enjoy vtubers for their content and being able to be themselves. But I guess this isn't something a fan can ignore. This culture is a ticking time bomb from debut until the hammer drops. I hope more people become self aware of their streamer viewer relationship. this is well put together and I hope videos criticizing the culture become more and more prominent.
I think there’s a time and place to think about it and a time and place to turn our brains off and just enjoy the content too. I actively criticized Korone in this video yet I’m going to keep watching her. It’s always good to be critical of the media you consume, but that doesn’t mean you have to stop liking it! Thanks for watching and supporting my content!
It's definitely streamers in general and not just vTubers. There is a lot to be said in favor of the old episodic content we used to watch, released on a schedule and edited for playtime.
The agencies rely on parasocial relationships is kinda false for me. It's just happened that vtubers cater gachikois because of their (vtubers) also happens to be being parasocial to his fans. This happens a lot in JP vtubers community because mental health is taboo there mostly and seeing vtubers as treatment of mental health there sadly.
Hololive and Nijisanji doesn't rely on parasocial relationships mostly. Hololive just happend to be idol things because half members liked being that, like for example is Noel doesn't want to collab with male vtubers, she stated PUBLICLY for that. Subaru also stated she wanted became idol as her dream really. Unlike Nijisanji, Hololive do different branch between male and female vtubers.
Nijisanji however a lot more into internet culture. That's why we rarely heard that Nijisanji is idol company. Even in their report pages reassured to investors that Nijisanji isn't idol company. They just do things for fun but again it's free to choose either you want became idol or just being streamer mostly. They never have different branch between male and female, thus they mixed it for gender vtuber.
However, I agree about current state indie vtubers. Mostly indies vtuber just follow the mainstream sadly especially the lewd jokes. It's so hard to find genuine indie vtubers because of that, just follow the formula to became well known.
To be fair, I really blame the current state vtuber fans, most of them just want horny enough and too lonely too parasocial ended up most vtubers even indies follow this formula for easy, safe and less risk gain followers.
Very valid points here! Thanks for joining the discussion!
I think it's more like these agencies would close their eyes about the parasocial problem when the vtuber fans start acting up and canceling, sending death threats and harras ppl when they were the top tier vtuber that working with them (For example like certain Nijisanji EN drama, you can see the agency literally did not do anything even when their members got attacked)
BUUUT
When there's vtuber member of their agency who had less viewers and engagement making troubles, they won't hesitate to cut off their contract without warning, and even some of ex members didn't get graduation stream
"Hololive and Nijisanji doesn't rely on parasocial relationships mostly"
Shut up, dude...
Cali is an abseloute champion, Bridgeing that gap between an admittedly rather "toxic" idol enviroment (To a western viewer, My opinion. Nobody elses) And the more casual Western style of streaming. And its perfect. I hope she keeps going strong. And props to Vox for sticking up for himself and trying to set boundries.
Agreed! Thanks for the comment!
I'm glad that you made this video and explored such a dark topic, because quite frankly, this is a serious issue in the community and it is passed time it was addressed! The clips you gathered and showed did a great job highlighting how much of an issue this is, and even then, it's only a sampling of the overall negative experience that a lot of Vtubers go through T_T I hope that this draws more awareness to the issue and leads to fans calling out these bad behaviors by others in the chat.
It blows my mind that people can claim to be fans of someone, then turn around and dox/send death threats to them the moment they do/say something they disagree with, like, where is the thought process and how did it go so far off the rails? I guess it probably has to do with the sense of separation from every day life that the internet can provide. People do tend to not like it when their escape from reality/fantasy gets shaken, so maybe that's it?
Still though, even if I'm able to express myself more freely on the internet, I still have the rule of don't treat someone in a way that I wouldn't in person (violently, harassment, etc). I feel like that's a good baseline rule for everyone to have for theirself on the internet.
Anyway, I'm really impressed that you ended on a hopeful note and I too share in the hope that things change for the better culture wise!
As always, this has been another great and thought provoking video! I can't wait for more content once you are ready to do more! Thank you for covering this sensitive topic, Yam!
Thank you for your input as always! I didn’t know internet toxicity until I saw the ways vtubers and fans interact on the internet honestly (goes to show you how much I kept to myself on the internet before becoming a Vtuber). Things get really heated all the time whether it’s Vtuber vs. Vtuber, Vtuber vs. fan, or Fan vs. fan. It’s healthiest to just find your own little community and stick to it.
Tbf, lots of us DO call this kind of stuff out, but sadly, those people who do this kind of thing don't seem to care much and will just, keep doing it...
I also think there's a huge difference between Japanese vtubers and English vtubers. There's a cultural gap there and how content is perceived. I tend to see English vtubers call out the gachikoi behavior more and tend to keep it reigned in if it gets too creepy. However, Japanese vtubers don't seem to really tackle it as much. It's possible they're aware, but want to be considerate of those who feel they have a safe space within that vtuber's content. Mind you, it feeds that warped mindset into thinking they're unique and then it spirals out of control, where you get those dangerously obsessed fans.
Agreed! Thank you for adding to the discussion! I think there is quite the difference between EN, JP, and ID fanbases and what is considered acceptable for fans and creators to do culturally.
Japan also has a really particular way of showing shame in their culture so I've heard stories of victims of attacks apologizing for "causing trouble"
@@TheMoonlightMage I think that have an another reason.
Like as if someone bump in you on the street, then you apologizing too.
It is just because there politeness culture and how they not like to make problems/troubles for others.
Unfortunately, agencies are always geared for these kind of entertainment that are sure to generate constant revenues. Having been to Japan, this culture is embedded in every fabric of Japanese society and this can be very strange for someone who are not Japanese. Idol culture or something that resembles that promotes parasocial relationships with their viewers are always the result if you're part of these types of agencies that are based in Japan.
I decided to go with vtubing just to express myself better as a character and I'm having a blast. I understand for those who want to generate income as a vtuber, I would not stop them to aspire to join an agency. However I would not promote anyone for to do so.
What an informative comment. Thank you so much on sharing your experience. I feel the same as you. I do feel like the agency world won’t change, and I am not calling for the entirety of Japanese culture to bend to my western preferences. I just simply want to be able to separate myself from that culture myself because it makes me uncomfortable.
Vtubing is so great for expressing yourself. It’s been an amazing way to be myself online!
i mean it resonates well with japan since everyone is very introverted but when you have almost the entire planet being introverted due to the virus, it gets difficult like demon souls level
and that's why the Japanese population will go decline...
like KAMIKAZE
Special thanks to these channels for aiding me in my research of this video:
FlamencoTV
FalseEyeD
DepressedNousagi
Dank Darkk
Hero Hei
Rev Says Desu
Please support them for all the hard work they do as VTuber Historians
edit: I specifically used these creators videos for clips and details on the individual stories I provide in “the consequences” section of the video. By crediting them I am not speaking to the validity of their individual opinions, nor do their opinions on other matters reflect my own.
They have such level heads on themselves and I am glad and thankful every day that they do. Some people out there just...freak me out so to speak.
"Hero Hei" = Opinion discarded
And mostly your source is the mf drama channels? lol.. You never know maybe even half of the anti comments from twitter are their multiple accounts to create drama for their news
I'd keep a wide berth from Hei, pally. I respect the rest and even hold Nousagi and Rev's perspectives highly but that Hero Hei fella in particular leaves a rancid trail behind him.
Gather what information you can for your work but hold them all accountable for any and all opinions. Godspeed on your efforts.
*still thanks and appreciates Yam-sensei for sharing your thoughts and feels on the pitfalls of Vtuber agencies promoting romantic parasocial relations, your own uncomfortable experiences being sexualized despite telling chat peeps that's not what you're all about, the trickle-down effect of objectification as normalized in big corporate Vtuber streams, and what you feel you could still do as a Vtuber creator finding your audience!
Moi would not just harshly judge Yam-sensei for crediting drama channels like Hero Hei and Rev Says Desu in her research... especially considering that even though those channels do cover Vtubers as part of their content, they also serve as spaces where one could find peeps who display transphobia, homophobia and conservative-leaning tendencies, and that's quite the pattern in many in their audience.
Please correct me if I'm wrong? It feels like Yam-sensei only picked up certain points expressed by those creators and used them in forming her own take, right? It felt like she could have expressed the same views without crediting those creators that tend to promote hate. Her feelings and views on the problems of Vtuber agencies and Vtuber culture whether they be in Japan or on the international scene still remain valid despite relying on ideas gathered from those channels...
'would like to hear Yam-sensei following up... but regardless of her sources, it's great that you finally found space to share your fears and concerns, and by releasing this video, you could find connections with peeps who truly support you and who promote the freedom to express oneself, regardless of one's gender, class, and ethnicity, via Vtubing! Moi hopes that you could continue to build a community not based on hate but based on self-expression, creativity, and love~
Idk if its because you're more industry focused, or you just don't interact as much with the outside indie culture of Vtubing, but I don't even see this as just an agency problem, this is a Vtuber and honestly an issue with online content creators who are directly benefited from their community liking them as much as possible. The non JP agencies and indies lack the idol culture issue, but instead pick up the egirl issue, the need for constant sexualization and flirting between not only their audience but eachother to attain and maximize growth. Hell most vtubers end up in parasocial relationships with eachother, which is why you see so many indies talking on Twitter about not knowing if someone is actually a friend or not. The audience is treated the same way. It's a little ironic you started this with an IM clip because as much as I love IM she's also guilty of doing it. According to her her audience is like her family and it just simply not true in reality no matter how you slice it.
Thank you for sharing your insight. I briefly touched on the fact that the indie community has the same problems as the agency VTubers in my video, but I didn’t give it too much depth. One thing that this comments section has taught me is that VTubers are caught in the same parasocial relationships their fans are in. Ironmouse is in a special case with her condition, but I didn’t know just how prevalent it was within the community. This is why I love the discussions my comments section sparks! Thanks again for supporting my content 🧡
You know, I agree with what you’re saying, but I gotta say I just don’t see the egirl thing with Vtubers being all that parasocial in most cases. I always see layers and layers of irony behind every one of these interactions, to the point where only the most deluded fans are taking them seriously. It’s become a massive joke to be flirty on stream. I mean at least that’s the way I see it. Though I’m sure there are fans out there taking it way too seriously, and also some streamers who are deliberately milking that dynamic. Most of the time however I can practically smell the sarcasm from both chat and the streamers and everyone comes out laughing rather than horny.
I know this isn't your intended content, but I truly appreciate you doing the deep dive and touching these issues. I've contemplated for a long while now how compatible I am as a person vs. what Vtubing on a larger scale would require. I'm still searching for the answers, but your research and perspective have brought great insight. Truly, keep up the great work!
Thank you queenie 😭 I have had those same thoughts myself and I’ve had to ignore the greater Vtuber culture for a while now and I just couldn’t take it after some point. This type of culture is just not compatible with me, and I’ve learned to accept that. I realize this will for sure stunt my growth as a creator, but it also makes me happier in the long run’
the beauty of content creating is that you can create your own culture. that's what it meant as a Content Creator.
@@YamAlbat I think you'll still be able to grow just fine, there's plenty of successful vtubers who fall outside of what we consider the vtuber community and culture.
Internet Historian is a great example and has been around long before most vtuber fans ever heard of Nijisanji or Hololive.
PNGTubing in general has been popular for quite a while actually.
Even if the company itself doesn’t restrict you and force you to do certain things, there is a degree of “peer pressure” that is unavoidable the “when you enter Rome act like the Roman’s do” situation, since company culture has been created and built up over years and fans grow to expect certain things from the creator. Leading the creator to caving in and just following.
In a company a fan base is sort of shared people have Their favorites ofc but the type of people who watch are also overlap. And since this ENTIRE CULTURE originated from agencies it is applied to the entire scene at large as well. Where due to just sheer history some things are viewed as acceptable and some things are not.
Trying to break the mold and be different is difficult since it actively goes against what was already preestablish and you are going to get a bunch of hate.
But over all it is good that people want to be different than just playing into the trend set by predecessors.
A small tight knit community is honestly the best since boundary’s can be set easily and people will follow them if it gets too big it just attracts too much attention and become unmanageable.
Cheers to the good video like always
Excellent point. I feel the peer pressure is definitely there, especially when something trends. I don’t know if you were a hololive fan when the “hi honey~” voice line trended when suisei said it in her duolingo stream. All the holomems then said it at some point. That’s one of the more harmless examples though… there was also those “leg on desk” assets I try so hard to forget about that either Amelia Watson or gawr gura started.
I am hoping that once I set some firm boundaries I’ll be able to stream regularly with no problems. Thank you for contributing your analysis. I always appreciate reading them 💕
You cannot control people. The extremes are a small percentage of the audience. The reason why they seem to be a lot is that the craziest fans are also the loudest, most vocal, and most active in interacting with the talents.
When you open yourself up to the internet, you open yourself up to everyone who is willing to follow you because of whatever reasons they find you appealing. Meaning, you will attract everyone from the most balanced all the way to the most insane.
It really doesn't matter where you go. Niji or Holo or Indie. You will get EVERYONE in the spectrum. You can tell them not to fall in love with you and most won't... but some will... and a few of that some will be extreme... and some of that few WILL take it too far.
Stay Anonymous. That's your greatest defense. Stay safe, peace!
Thank you for your insight. I appreciate your perspective. I will continue to take measures to distance myself from my character and create that healthy separation as I grow as a content creator. 🧡
@@YamAlbat Truth be told is I'm in love with Vtubers Culture. If anyone gets hurt, no matter how obscure they are amongst the Vtubing community, it will break my heart.
That’s a kind sentiment, thank you!
I agree except for being an Anonymous part. Being Anonymous is actually what causes trouble on the internet.
It's not really a matter of small percentages, hololive specifically caters to gachikoi and parasocial fans and the ones that don't automatically attrack those kind of people because of the vibe it is, the whole "idol" thing, the whole idea is toxic.
Ironically, I follow HoloEN & ID instead of most independents because of less targeting toward parasocials.
HoloEN has shown they can break the JP mold with the male collabs, and Hololive publicly supports them. Ignore the antis; The popularity of those collab streams speaks for itself.
I love how Kaela responds to parasocial comments by, "Get some help. Please, get some help."
.ie if you want change, join Hololive and make those changes.
Well said!
Preach brother PREACH
I'd also add that, while I do agree with you, NijiEN has an even wider freedom to collab in coed streams simply because they are a coed company, despite what happens with Vox. He and Ike are always with Reimu, fellow members, because they are close friends irl and the company wont stop them. People can get weird, and even attacked Reimu once, but they ARE friends! Such is the case with a lot of the members, too (unlike Hololive, which separates the male talents into a separate subgroup, Holostars, which in all branches except English, are also separated in the management side). Selen always collabs with indie content creators, including Surefour, who isnt even a Vtuber.
Both Nijisanji and Hololive have positives and negatives, and a lot also goes behind the scenes and depends on familiarity; if not for friends, I'd not even know Regis Altare (Holostars EN) and Alban Knox (Nijisanji EN) were friends IRL and have been doing stuff behind the scenes, that is, the recently announced collab between both was a long one coming, and Pomu-Kiara have been trying for collabs for 1 year now.
Both Nijisanji and Hololive have positives and negatives, and sincerely are one and the same because they are both born in the same time and culture, so don't tell yourself HoloEN and HoloID is "better" and has less targetting when Saplings are just as bad and attacked Fauna before.
The Vtuber world is dirty, no one is fully innocent, but we can choose who to follow. I watch both Nijisanji and Hololive (plus Vshojo, Vyugen, Phase Connect and PRISM) so maybe I just don't see your point, but if you choose to focus on Hololive, it is fine! I am a Brat and KFP employee myself!
@@NothingXemnas I merely didn't mention NijiEN because can't confidently say that I know them well. But I'll say pretty much all the English branches are breaking new ground from the traditional idol culture. Thank the western audience.
@@stsin2 FOR SURE! These companies invested in the English side to reach new grounds, but were met with culture shock. Helps that a lot of the people in the management side of the English branches are all younger and all are supportive of the push towards a reform. Even Tazumi Riku, Nijisanji's head, is SO YOUNG! I am tired of closeminded elders controlling so many companies today, so seeing companies from such a traditionalist country bending to the new times is an insane breath of fresh air. Reminds me of the interview with a couple Hololive members and one of the hosts asked why they (Ina and Bae) dont call each other as senpai or kouhai, because they didn't understand that hierarchy culture isn't that much a thing in the West.
The area where you are wrong is the number of JP members who have done events with males. I would say less than half, but a sufficient number crossed that line long ago. Don't buy into this general idea that all of JP is somehow unable to do anything with male streamers.
In the end, I think Gachikois are pretty much inevitable even if you do not cater to them. However, not catering to them helps in changing the perception in the rest of your fanbase. If the fanbase finds it less acceptable to gachikoi, then it is much less likely for them to be extreme in their approaches.
I think people have different opinions on idol culture, particularly in Hololive. I personally find it to be leaning more towards inspiration rather than infatuation. Some of the girls are inspired by how their idols shined on stage and wanted to do the same. In turn, they themselves ended up being an inspiration to others wanting to succeed in the same way.
Lastly, I would agree on the part regarding the compulsory company-wide events. However, I think those have gotten significantly better lately. If we use HoloFes and Holosummer as an example, it's gotten very diverse in terms of how the talents can approach it. In Holofes, we have Korone who does flips on stage. In Holosummer, the talents have an option for the more modest Yukata. Suisei for example, has never used the swimsuit in her private streams and even used the Yukata for the Live.
EDIT:
Forgot to say thanks for the video. There were some very interesting viewpoints I haven't considered previously
Agreed! I’m glad that talents are getting more freedom when it comes to what branding and direction they want to go in, even in company wide events! I’ve been heavily inspired by hololive and nijisanji talents to become a content creator myself, but I simply can’t see myself following in their exact footsteps any longer because I have different goals in mind now. Thank you for supporting my content and for adding to the discussion!
I constantly get soured on fandoms. Everytime I get hooked on something whether a videogame, movie or book, I find out the fandom is guano insane, toxic or both.
I’m a very casual watcher of Hololive, but recently had a bad interaction with a “fan”.
He (I assume it’s a he) took a comment of mine out of context, and tried REALLY hard to make me out to be a “gachikoi” or equally crazy parasocial. I tried to explain, but he wasn’t having it.
My comment? That I enjoyed the “kayfabe” for what it was, and didn’t really want to find out the real person behind the vtuber.
Apparently that meant I was delusional and thought the vtuber was totally real and would doxx her if she behaved out of character.
Sigh. Feels like everything has insane fandoms…
Yeah, that’s relatable. The best thing to do is to try and tune it out and enjoy yourself because life is too short and I’m really just here for cute wholesome content that makes me smile after work 🙃
@@YamAlbat I like the collabs and the comfy streams. I tend to watch Ina the most, as she usually streams right when I have free time. Sometimes I put them on as background “noise” when I’m playing a game.
I just wanna relax and kick back. No drama.
I feel like for almost all the reasons people seem to hate Calli... I freaking love.
She stands out from the bunch for sure! Such an inspiration!
Also I like how there isn't any mention of Hololive ID cause unlike JP and most of EN, they've shut down all of this parasocial relationship stuff quickly. They've been way more vocal about setting boundaries than the other members.
Hell I didn't even like Iofi at first because she came off as rude and bossy with her boundaries but the more that I've been in the fandom the more I realize that she was absolutely right with immediately restricting her chat and setting boundaries.
So glad to hear that ID takes matters into their own hands when it comes to setting boundaries. Gives me hope for the future 🧡 thanks for contributing to the conversation!
The question that I always have in my mind is if the whole parasocial relationship thing can really be done away with. If in a way streaming as a nature is in itself monetized intimacy. Even if you took out the sexual stuff you still have to deal with the layers upon layers of parasocial friendships, which is a LOT harder to notice and measure
This is true. You’ll always have parasocial relationships as a content creator and especially streamer unfortunately. In this video I was mostly talking about romantic parasocial relationships, as that’s what can become the most toxic in my opinion.
@@YamAlbat And in real life, people have created those imaginary relationships from the pages of a book; a certain couple of photographs; words said in a movie. The risk is increased if there's too much parasocial, but it cannot be anticipated or prevented entirely. It's like the man who tried to burn down KyoAni, that was a normal day until then.
This is what annoys me about the umbrella denouncement of parasocial relationships by some sections of the vtuber fanbase.
By the very nature of the fan-content creator/famous person relationship there will inevitably be parasocial relationships between viewers and vtubers.
Also, something oft ignored is the fact that a parasocial relationship is actually a two way street. The vtubers also have that towards their fans. But it is an unequal one as each fan individually as a parasocial relationship with a vtuber while the vtuber has a parasocial relationship with their fanbase as a whole rather than any individual fan.
I think it is much better to criticize Gachikois in specific rather than just the regular parasocial fan.
Seeing a vtuber as a love interest is bad but seeing them as a friend is a much less problematic situation I think.
@@YamAlbat I was recently troubled to notice that Luna's current event merch includes a promise ring and phone charm for her Luknights. And a tapestry with her bestowing the ring. She's not like the green one but she is definitely playing the game. That kind of commitment is naturally addictive to some streamers, but it is their choice and not forced on them by the company. Some have even had to fight Cover for months to get a project or some kind of merch approved. Goombus appears to have literally summoned the demons of her past to ram some stuff through. And those are some very scary personal demons.
Really powerful video here, especially on why you remain to be a VTuber. The reasons you stated are some of the reasons why i am so much into VTubers. It really is a wholesome and amazing community, with a few bad eggs. Hopefully, with many Vtubers setting boundaries and breaking the gachikoi “feel”. I do hope the current parasocial toxicity would eventually vanish, so that you and other VTubers would feel safe to stream again. Rooting for you in the long run! It may not be easy but do know that you have a supporter in me!
Thank you so much for the support. I’m glad it reminded you of the good in the community too. I do have hope that as the VTuber community spreads out and does their own thing that things won’t be as bad!
Nijisanji has so many different kinds of talents though, and they've never even tried to advertise themselves as an idol company.
They do have a great variety! I never intended to call them an idol company. I just personally feel like their marketing and the way some of their talents carry themselves plays into this romantic parasocial relationship. Thanks for watching and contributing to the discussion!
I don’t believe I called Nijisanji an idol agency in my video, and if I did, that wasn’t my intention. I included nijisanji in this video specifically for the marketing and direction certain members in nijisanji decided to take with their individual channels. Thanks for the insight, and thank you for watching!
@@YamAlbat You're welcome.
@@YamAlbat Honestly, these kinds of issues aren't even specific to vtubing, let alone Hololive and Nijisanji. Anime and games like Honkai and Genshin have long proven that many people are willing to spend a lot of money for characters they become attached to.
Even without the influence of the biggest vtuber companies, I feel like this sort of thing would persist, as it's an aspect of human nature that's seemingly easy to exploit at present. Then again, I'm just some guy with an opinion, and I've zero experience with vtubing, so my perspective is limited.
Apologies for responding twice, I didn’t realize I had already got to your comment! 😂🤝 and thank you for being so respectful in your replies. I did learn something today!
Seeing all the times that Vox and Shoto have had to address issues makes me really upset because Shoto was the first v-tuber I became interested in.
I've considered being a v-tuber as it seems like it could be fun, for a while, I thought that being part of Nijisanji must be fun but anytime I see that one of them has to make a video because their boundaries it makes me lose a little less faith in the community.
If I ever had the opportunity to be a v-tuber I would love to do it my own way in my own time - just for fun. Of course, I love Nijisanji but unless the community is able to overcome its problems I'm probably not ever going to consider auditioning for any companies.
(Also I am slightly creeped out with the way v-tubers are constantly shipped sometimes only for being on screen at the same time. I've seen lots of Nijisanji's Luxiem group complain about it and it makes me upset that they feel like they can't do collabs with their friends because of people.)
I think what it will take is for more v-tubers to speak out about things that have happened or are happening in order for the community to become better as a whole. However, it is probably quite hard for these v-tubers to speak out as they are essentially getting mad at "fans" and could possibly ruin whatever image/impression that they have given.
Very true! I think you have to have a very strong disposition to be a holo or nijisanji VTuber that I just don’t feel like I have. I’d be super creeped out with if every collab I participate in resulted in shipping art. Some fans really like to put these poor talents into boxes they never asked for. I hope that my own video changes some minds regarding this type of behavior, and I wish all these talents the best. Thank you for contributing to the conversation!
You can request to not get shipped with people. That’s what Yugo Asuma, a graduated NIJI EN member, did. I think they eventually changed their mind about later, but previous to that-on their debut (I think?), they stated that they didn’t want to shipped.
Great video, my youtube recommended this video out of nowhere but I really appreciate it that it happened.
It's always good to discuss and remember this sort of thing in the Vtuber community.
Your videos are very good, Hugs from Brazil!
Wow thank you so much for giving my video a chance! Thank you algorithm for reaching all the way to Brazil 🙌💖
TH-cam's recommendations blessed me for once.
This was a great and really detailed video, both as analysis on Vtubers' relationships with fans and "fans" and as a personal observation of how Vtubing has evolved over time, both for corporate and indies. In a perfect world, this type of content either wouldn't exist or would be limited, and everybody would be healthy and mature enough not to take such content seriously. Alas, things aren't as pretty in reality.
I believe every kind of content can be done untoxically, as long as boundaries exist and the intensity is limited. But some company choices or individual choices (or both) unfortunately create dangerous environments that can spiral out of control if left unchecked or unprepared, especially when combined with the inherent risks of far-end waifu/idol culture. Rushia, Aloe and Vox are prime examples.
It's been memed a lot with the "touch some grass" memes, but some people are really much more susceptible to fall victim to being gachikois or toxic, for any number of reasons.
From my observations, HoloID and NijiID come out quite unscathed from all this. The difference of culture, the different approach to their relationship to media, and how ID fans view idols, play a major role here. While they aren't immune to also having delusional fans, they tend to be both lower in numbers and less intense. And, idk, I get the feeling that the talents themselves are the most "them" out of Hololive/Nijisanji talents. Risu's memelord prankster status, Ollie being "one of us", Hana coming off as a "down to earth gremlin", or Mika's sexual curiosity all feel genuine traits of they as people, not just persona traits. The talents themselves also don't shy away from calling out the weirdness or even sometimes creepiness/delusional side of their chats, by shutting down gachikoi attempts.
Wow very great insight! Thank you for sharing. That’s a very interesting point! I also want to add that holoID and NijiID tend to take more risk with their character designs than other branches, and I absolutely love that. If you’ve seen some of my other videos you’ll know that I like unique designs the most, and it seems that Indonesian Vtubers tend to be given the more unique and out there designs. I don’t think Kureji Ollie’s design would’ve been given to a holoJP member. I wonder if the designs directly reflect the culture? Thank you again for adding to our discussion with your personal perspective 🧡
This video was a great watch, it really opened my eyes to a lot of things going on in v-tuber and v-tuber fans' culture, and for that I thank you for making it! (I apologize if the English I used is poor, I'm ESL)
Thank you for watching! I respect all English learners because I know how hard it is to learn another language! I’m glad you enjoyed the video 🧡
I'm watching this video again. I'm older and smarter. Joining hololive is for now my only real dream, and I'll try to keep it. Don't worry. I'll try to be not toxic.
Very insightful and respectful. Keep up the great work!!!
Thank you as always Cyber. I appreciate that you watch and comment on all my videos ❤
Thank you for making a video covering this topic. Having spent almost 3 years in the Fandom, I was made aware of the gachikoi culture and made a promise to myself that I'd never join that side of the Fandom. So far it's been great, I still love watching them as content creators equal to the others I love like Pewdiepie, MoistCritikal, the Trashtaste bois (to sum it up), and much much more.
I go along with the shits and giggles joking about the Fandom and it's problems since I also find them funny. But there are times that I encounter actual gachikoi's crying for whatever reason, I ask them why instead of taking the easy route of mocking them. I'm a bro at heart so seeing a fellow brother or even sister so deep in the gachi culture saddens me, so I try to ask them why and start a conversation.
That is truthfully the best response you can have. I appreciate fans like you who treat VTubers just like any other content creator and challenge the fans who are struggling in parasocial relationships. Thank you for supporting my content and sharing your own experience!
Coming from the Hololive sphere, your concerns are warranted and understood.
Fans of any level, whether they be the zealous type or gachikois are a core problem which I would like to explain a little.
Whenever a negative situation arises that requires radio silence so that their companies can sort it out internally until ready to do so, the fans will be impatiently demanding answers and I quote, from a reply I once submitted:
"From a logical POV, the "We want answers" mentality is very difficult to deal with, especially because of the scale of it all.
It's a double-edged sword to disseminate information because if you don't say anything, people make up narratives on their own.
And if you say anything, people ask more questions from it, and then continue to make more narratives on their own.
It's a horrible catch-22, really. Damned if they do, or don't.
It's really about picking the lesser-evil option when such situations arise. Because while the talents are exercising their own discipline, fans aren't willing to control themselves and be really patient about things.
And also, therein lies the problem - it's not always the fans at fault, based on circumstances. But the dynamics of problem solving on a corporate level makes it so that fans WILL inevitably become the problem for PR and the talents involved - because "We Want Answers".
As a DD who's just watching stuff inside and outside of Hololive without commenting 99% of the time, I'm fully supportive of any antics the talent employs to make their vtubing stint work. I stand by my views that fans, and even just returning viewers (non-members etc) can be an abhorrent lot to watch.
Couldn’t agree more. This video was a bit tough to research for because I didn’t want to pin the blame on any one party. Fans can be awful, companies could do more to mitigate the crazy fans instead of choosing to cater to them, and talents could set better boundaries. It’s a major case by case situation. As the number of fans grow, the corporations will have to have better safeguards in place to keep everyone safe.
Your content is incredibly sweet, and it's really refreshing to see someone who doesn't lean so hard into the romantic aspects a lot of vtubers use. This sort of thing is exactly why I'm so nervous for my own stream debut, because while I'm not fully wholesome because I tend to curse or occasionally make a risqué joke, I don't want that sort of attention from my viewers. I just want to be a place people can come to so they can laugh and feel accepted.
Your content is really great, and I'm so sorry that you've had so many issues in previous times!
That’s so kind of you to say! My biggest advice to you is to have clear rules and have at least one mod present so you can focus on your live content! I’m thinking of having a “please take this time to read the rules” phrase on my Starting Soon screen and have a bot remind chat to read my rules as well. Black listing keywords may also help. I hope that I didn’t scare you too bad with my stories 💔
@@YamAlbat Not at all! I'm lucky in that I don't scare easily. I appreciate the advice as well! I hope I get to see loads more content from you in the future~
@@YamAlbat that's honestly what i have been wanting streamers to do all this time
@@ScribbleDaru Agreed! I never want to make someone uncomfortable on accident and the only way to prevent it is if the streamer has clear rules and the chat actually reads them!
@@YamAlbat I just think "it's nice to add please wait or im on stand by or something" i personally would want to add at least on the beginning of my stream with stuff like my socials, rules and my projects so that way i dont really need to announce them... i dunno maybe that's just me
There is a lot to say, but let's do a quick correction 30:18 - There is no rule saying relationships within Hololive is forbidden. What is forbidden is Staff v Talent, but Talent v Outside or Talent v Talent are all allowed. Matsuri herself said so, and behind the scenes knowledge just confirms, since one member is actually MARRIED.
Another huge misconception in this video in general. I'll tell you this straight up, most people won't care if a talent has a boyfriend or is married, as long they never mention it, and it's never brought on stream and of course they take the proper precautions to bury it from their previous lives. Mumei and Fauna attracted a ton of negative attention due to their IRL relationship status, but since they NEVER bring it up, and it never accidentally seeped into the stream, people are willing to forgive, forget and suspend their disbelief.
And of course, it can be dangerous. But can also be the biggest joy in the streamer's life. Girls like Miko and Pekora are the biggest, the best and are very happy to stream and spend time with chat. The key here is loving what you do. They love streaming, they have zero desire to have males on their stream, chat always supports them. For them is a win-win.
Understood! Thank you for the correction. I watched matsuri talk about it a while ago and thought she meant talent + talent or talent + staff. I may have gotten that part wrong, thank you for the correction!
I also never meant to imply talent + outside relationships were forbidden. Thank you again for commenting and watching the video!
I would actually like to see 2 talents get together and publicly announce it on stream, maybe just to see the reactions of gachikois
@@darkviking7135 Announce what.
@@victorpresti That they are dating eachother. And this doesn't have to be a male and female talent, two male or female talents dating eachother would maybe have an even greater effect on the gachis. But I can see them getting even more delusional over lesbian relationships thinking they can get a "1+1 deal" out of it.
It would need to take some major effort from both the talents and company to manage all the hate that's gonna come out of it. But on the other hand most fans would probably be happy for them and they need to have the mental fortitude to ignore the hate and view the positive messages.
At the end of it, after all the drama is over, I could see it leading to a netto positive growth in the industry.
Mumei has a bf? I'm a big fan of her but .. that's a brave man. Imagine waking up to that creepy owl head spinning around to say oh hi.
Thank you for posting this, it’s a very important topic as the vtuber community and their viewership grows. It’s a culture that can only healthily grow if these things are addressed.
And for old and new generations of Vtubers to prosper, they’ll need to contend with these factors that can make or break their success and mental health.
Very true. Mental health should always be put first!
Great video. I've been avoiding even the thought of this topic since it put a negative light on something I love and enjoy, but now I realise this is something that is necessary in order to change Vtubing itself for the better. Thank you for educating me!
Thank you for giving my video a chance. I really tried to avoid this as well, but I had that “straw that broke the camel’s back” experience with my last stream and needed to get it off my chest. I am happy to have it over and done with so that I can enjoy the wholesome side of VTubers again. I think as fans the best thing we can do is support our favorite creators while also being aware of overarching issues surrounding with the community. No need to dwell on the negative, but it’s good to know it exists and what we may do to improve the work environment of our favorite creators!
Speaking the truth! Stay safe everyone and be yourself! Not just some cookie cutter idol!
Thank you for the support! I feel better after making this video and staying true to my own convictions
This is the first video I’ve ever watched from yours but I think this was an extremely well made and researched video that made me think about how I view Vtubers. Everyone hates to see those kinds of people and it’s hard to articulate it with words. Also the examples were really on point. Keep it up and I’ll 100% be keeping up with your future enedevors!
Same here, I agree with you too
Thank you! I will admit this one was very hard to research and articulate. Even with all the drafts and research I did, I still managed to leave out a few important things that some commenters have added to the discussion! Even though the video isn’t perfect, I am happy to see my improvement in presentation and script delivery. Thank you for recognizing my hard work 💛
Thank you so much for the video! Hearing about your experiences was honestly very heart rending and I'm glad that despite everything, vtubing is still something you enjoy. I hope that your vtubing journey will be much more pleasant in the future! :))
Thank you for watching! I plan to remain an active VTuber for as long as possible. I am actively working to improve my own experience by setting clearer rules and boundaries!
If anyone is planning on doing anything that will give you a fairly public presence, some sort of parasocial connection will be created. Streamers have it bad as they are in constant contact with people in their chat, but I would argue that musicians, actors, and many other public figures can have it far worse.
This is true! Some parasocial relationships are just unavoidable. This is something I should have been more clear on. Setting clear boundaries your fans can point to helps keep their imaginations from running too wild. That’s the most we can do as creators.
This was a fantastic video! For the longest time I was genuinely scared, because I was buying merch and stuff, that I would slowly become like that without even myself noticing. I feel like that happens to a lot of these people, and I feel like I'm self-aware enough now as an adult that I am able to see the difference between being a huge fan and a gachikoi. When I see videos like this though, it always makes me self reflect and think like "oh god I haven't become like this have I?". It's an uncomfortable topic and I appreciate you covering it.
I also got to experience a bit of the other side of things when I had a video I made for fun got super viral, and it was really weird having so many people being critical of something I made. It gave me a whole new respect for content creators and what they do on a regular basis, because I don't think I could put up with it on a regular basis. I just made a random edit of a video and now I feel this weird obligation to keep updating it, even though my position has no parasocial shit involved with it. IDK I'm just spewing random stuff right now, it probably doesn't even make sense, I just want to say, I have huge respect for you and keep doing what you're doing.
Thank you for the kind words and for supporting the video! If the video didn’t upset you in disagreeance, chances are you’re a big fan not a gachikoi 🤭 (I’m joking of course)
I am experiencing that same sort of jarring feeling with how well my videos have been doing all of a sudden. I’m still trying to learn how to handle even this small level of recognition.
this video hit the nail right on the head in regards to parasocial relationships in vtubing! the first vtuber i started to really pay attention to was vox back in january, so i've seen firsthand how bad things can get. i'm of the belief that it's one thing if an audience member develops a parasocial relationship with a streamer, but it's another if the streamer actively takes part in interactions that attract and enable them. i watched vox because i found him pretty funny but promptly checked out when the more adult fanservice became a constant (not to knock him or his fanbase, it's just not my cup of tea)
most of the vtubers i watch nowadays keep that kind of thing to a minimum and it's safe to say that i'm having a much better time. i've always watched vtubers the same way i would watch any other content creator tbh. the stark difference between most vtubers' chat to a fleshtuber's chat never ceases to give me whiplash though ;; i feel like many vtuber fans tend to forget that the character on their screen is a real person and interact with them in ways that they wouldn't with someone who shows their face in their content. hopefully this video leads to some people reflecting on how they engage with their favorite vtuber.
i also hope that your future endeavors as a vtuber go smoother than they have in the past! this isn't the first video of yours that i've watched, and it won't be the last :D i can tell you put a lot of time and effort into the research, editing, and script writing, and i can't wait to see what other videos you'll make!
Thank you for the well wishes! Something I wish I did include in my video was that most fans are totally normal and don’t get weird. I totally agree with you. It concerns me when a streamer plays into the parasocial relationships, and I just hope that they are informed of the potential consequences so that they can stay safe!
A nice well researched and written video. Really hope this video pops off because it's exactly the kind of thing people need to be aware of especially with how bad it's gotten these days. Best of luck you!
Thank you so much for your support! We will see if the algorithm is kind to me this time! Either way, comments like yours definitely help so thank you for doing your part!
An impressive and thoughtfull video. I've noticed the culture but I'm a very late when it comes to vtubers. So I thank you educating me on the darker side of the fandom but also the positives of it.
Thank you! I’m glad you found this video informative. It took me a surprising amount of research to produce!
Hey just letting you know thank you for making all these videos, this one and the one regarding how to make an original, interesting Vtuber concept really reactivated my inspiration! They are all great and super informative!
Ah thank you! I am glad you enjoyed them!
This is a very well done video. I article was very well written. I found myself riveted right to about the 38 minute mark which is very good for a video of this length. Once again VWD - very well done.
Thank you for commenting and supporting the channel!
Great video. I sub. And not like after 5 days in the fridge.
It's easy to forget that this whole continuum of entertainment is so risky. I'm familiar with the para-social concept, but it's the first time I've heard these stories in detail. It's scary but also disappointing to learn that so many fans are so desperate for even the illusion of attention, not that I can't understand why.
I'm an older guy with relationships in the real world, so it's hard to understand the mind of someone affected by parasocial delusion. Big respect to Dad streaming with those metaphorical massive iron balls of boldness.
I can relate! The VTubers I follow are so wholesome and always cheerful so it’s easy to forget the dark underbelly exists a lot of the time! I have major respect for the creators who are mistreated by fans but continue to smile for our sake!
I'm an artist myself and that's what initially attracted me to vtubers. It's really interesting from the art and technical side of it. It's also how I found your channel, Yam.
That being said, I only stumbled upon them when I found Ina one time, an art stream of hers I think. I also watched Gura for a little while when she first started out but I didn't really stick with any vtubers for long. Wasn't until Holostars Tempus that I kept up with them regularly. I was really impressed with what magni was discussing on his first art stream about art, content creation etc. He came off really level headed and down to earth. He reminds me of friends I've had lol. I think that's what appeals to me about all four of them really. I actually like that they are more "real" and not just play into the character all of the time. I especially relate to Vesper as I'm in his age bracket (probably a few years younger than he is from what I've surmised), and I understand his "boomer-ness". In my life I've also gotten along better with guys due to my interests in video games growing up and other typically male interests, and I find great joy/entertainment in their banter.
All that said, I'm also a married mom of 2 so I'm not exactly part of the typical target audience. So things like you mentioned here (yabai etc) definitely wouldn't appeal to me lol. Maybe it would have when I was 20, but not anymore. Even then, I would find it a bit weird to fantasize over vtubers because they're still real people behind those avatars. And that just crosses a line that would be just a bit too weird for me.
I do feel for the vtubers who are caught in this weird situation due to some of the audience being a bit too obsessive... I know in some ways they need them monetarily, but all the same it's also a bit dangerous/scary.
I completely understand why you'd want to shy away from ever becoming an agency vtuber, all things considered.
Wow thank you for sharing your personal insight and experience. I really gravitate towards the way HoloTempus carries their streams honestly. They give me a lot of hope for the industry. I feel like they are genuinely just having a good time. I am hoping that the audience of VTubers continue to expand so that there will be more options for clips to watch beyond Yabai moments. I’ll continue to stay in my own lane of VTuber content I enjoy and respectfully support the others from a distance.
I appreciate this video SO much!! I have a friend who falls into this category SO hard, and it breaks my heart at times. However, it is very important to reassess where you are, what has changed, what you've learned, and what you want now. I sincerely appreciate the time, care, and research, as well as the genuine reflection that was in this video!
Been doing so much research on vtubing for a while now and am so happy I found your videos and now follow your streams! As an asexual I definitely have been feeling like my content might not be as popular, but oh well 😅🤷
Just pick a different niche of content and I think you can totally be popular with non sexualized content!
Don’t lose hope, Rin Penrose is asexual and she’s really popular.
I feel this video is something we all need to know, I'm not that into vtubers so I dont think that much about them (besides haha they are funny) but you actually gave me a completly different point of view and tbh as u said this applies not only to vtubers. Genuinely thank you very much for giving us this perspective.
Thank you for your kind words and for supporting my content! Casual viewing of VTuber clips is where I currently am too. I love how funny and lighthearted they are! I’m very happy to return to my own lighthearted content after this. Glad you enjoyed the video 🧡
I’m not gonna lie, agency Vtubing is oddly dangerous the larger your fanbase grows. The power of parasocial fans is literally infinite.
To the point where Ame literally had to say “Don’t worry, it’s nothing beyond a coworker relationship” before collating with Holostars, and had to reassure it MULTIPLE TIMES.
To the point where Kronii got dunked on for no reason and had to talk back directly on stream.
To the point where COVER CORPS had to make a tweet just to tell people to FRICKING CALM DOWN.
To the point where the entire Rushia drama was primarily exploding because of both Rushia’s parasocial viewers and Mafumafu’s
People that say idol culture doesn’t exist in the west are entirely wrong. We just have a different title for it, but it’s the same thing
Please for the love of God let them do what they want. You SUPPORT what the idols do, you don’t CHOOSE what the idols do. Mama Kronii didn’t deserve this, Calliope didn’t deserve this, nobody really deserved this
You make some very strong point about Idol Culture in general that the agencies use too. It’s honestly baffling just how many controversies happened just because a Vtuber was communicating with another person. Not even the context of what they were saying, just simply the sole fact they’re speaking to someone else. I can totally see why you wouldn’t want to join given the “characteristics” you would have to subconsciously conform to, even if it seemed like fun.
It definitely is still important to talk about these perspectives of agency Vtubers though. Hopeful you’re right and things change for the better. Much respect 👍🏾
Thank you for adding your insight and supporting my video! It feels good to finally have it off my chest and I’m excited to see what my future in content creation holds!
yep, it's a big problem glad someone was able to add up in shedding light on the matter, people need to get it through their heads that characters they read in a book or watched from any medium, though relatable, have no relationships with them.
This is wonderfully made, hope to see more from you.
Thank you for supporting my content! The fact that there are people behind these characters is something I think VTuber fans subconsciously forget at times.
My tenchou so based as always. And good video, hope your really feel better after this.
PS: This is more a personal comment but I finally watched this kind of video about the Rabbit Hole that I tried to avoide for a long time cause idk I didn't wanted to see it. But at the end it was not bad, also is nice to see opinions of a vtuber him/herself on it.
Honestly Kiara says it so well here I felt like including this clip rather than trying to say it myself and fumbling it was appropriate here. And thank you for supporting my content! I do feel better after posting it❤️
This was a good video, I thought I was only going to watch the first few minutes but it kept my attention the entire time. I think the examples you gave of the obsessive (gachakoi, idk if I'm spelling that right) fan mindset in action were important because they showed how pervasive the problem is; it's not just that these people have hopeless romantic fantasies, but they witchhunt and try to police every aspect of the vtubers' content and lives. I'm hopeful that more vtubers themselves will start to push back against this fan culture as well as they develop more experience (but obviously I'm not saying we should just leave them to figure it out themselves). Trouble is, this will probably only happen after more incidents like Kronii's will occur.
I’m so glad to hear! I have tried to improve my editing and script writing so that my videos are easier to watch all the way through but a video this long isn’t typical for my channel so I didn’t know how engaging it would be. The witch-hunting is a very real and scary threat. I hope as the industry changes for the better, and Hololive backs up their talents more, the severity of these witch-hunts will die down!
only watch this video + the 2 reaction to vtuber census, and its not even the highest viewed video on your channel
and I must say, what an absolute banger of a content that kept me strapped to the video
I watched every second of it and at the end of it, thought that this is such an informative video
being someone new to the scene, I think it is important to have a "streaming ethic" that is in line with their personality.
I know my personality, but how do I cultivate said streaming ethic?
videos like this really help out on the aspect of the fandom's culture and the culture of vtubers
So happy to hear that you enjoy my content! I hope that I can continue to improve as a creator so that I can make quality videos about character design and VTuber culture for you all!
Oh god what a punch that was, truly well made video, I really don't know much to say about this to add to what you said but I really want to so bear with me pls
I've seen so much of those things happening, specially in the few past months that everything suddenly blew out in drama, I really dislike the gachakoi culture because of just how deranged some "fans" can get, I've seen Vtubers that don't even play on the gachakoi to bait them being harassed over someone's own personal fantasy, made up by themselves, it bothers me to see how obsessive one can become over something that never even happened, and moreover should never happen.
I like to rationalize the thought that behind every model, behind every word said is a real person, may it be an actor/actress or really the talent giving in their own personality, and I see more and more that people don't think of it this way, pardon me the swear but they don't recognize Vtubers are real fucking people out there, and this hurts, a lot, I've seen a friend of mine going through some trouble for the exact same reason, they just dehumanize the person behind it into mere waifu/husbando material independent of the actions the actual talent take and what they set out to be, there will always be this kind of weirdos giving in to something that isn't even there.
In my honest opinion and again I'm sorry for my words, but it just shows how much idiots are out there on the internet, not fearing to do this kind of stupidity because they're behind a screen, not caring if they're going to hurt the people on the other side, those being the content creator and others from the community, this wounds the Vtuber Community as a whole and paint a bad picture of the thing for outsiders, I've had friends judge me and part ways with me for the sole reason they've seen this kind of stuff happening in the community and knowing I like Vtubers, as if I had anything to do with it.
Along with the takeaway you made I want to say that, independent of your measures, your preventions, anyone who goes head-on should know that there's always a risk, there's always someone out there willing to make your day a little bit worse, and you shouldn't really let this affect your mental and emotional health and let that seep into your well-being, seek for help when you feel you need it, even though it might mean ending a stream early and calling a friend, or just treating yourself up again later, but not let yourself be dragged down by this.
Thank you for your passionate words and advice. I agree that even with all the measures in place, me and all the other creators on the internet will still get the bad apples. I am still working to separate myself from my online content so that the attacks don’t feel as personal as they do now. I know it’s hopeless to try to make your internet community 100% wholesome, but I think giving my opinion on the matter and putting it all out there will help. I hope this video will let everyone know where I stand on this issue, and anyone who doesn’t like that can find another creator to support.
As a not very socially capable guy in university who says in his room all day, I love that videos like this exist. I do love watching Vtubers, but I do feel it is bad for me and I can imagine alot of people are in similar positions. As i can get a fake, impersonal, parasocial version of potential 'relationships' without any potential risk or necessity to develop at all as a person. My only critique of this video is your focus on agency vtubes (Though I guess that was the general point) when I think the issues discussed very much are present in most indie Vtubers too.
*Slides in sticky note with "ShyLily" written on it*
@@XionicAihara lmaaaoo
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I think a lot of us fell down the VTuber rabbit hole during the pandemic when we weren’t allowed to socialize. But like Kiara said, we all gotta force ourselves to come out of our shells even if it’s uncomfortable. Wishing you the best of luck with this!
I just found your channel through this recommendation, and wow, you just explained everything on the side I don't like about the vtubing industry, for me the idol aspect is the worst, and I can't follow talents that carry the idol vibe, it feels too plastic and uncanny for me, also parasocials/gachikois should seek actual help because it's not healthy to behave like that, and their fantasy might even harm the talents they like to the point of forcing them to graduate due to some controversies, and even doxx them; for me, the talents I pick to watch are always into the "friend" role, saying dumb stuff like your actual friends would say while gaming or just chatting with them, never on the idol fantasy.
I'm glad this video exists because it is a serious problem in the community, and you did a really great job explaining it, I'm subscribing right now, I checked your other works and they're really good, keep on going with the good work, I can really see the effort you put in it!
Wow thank you for taking the time to check my content out, your kind words made my day! I am with you on what kind of VTubers I appreciate the most. The holotempus boys give me so much hope because they are the most friend-oriented generation I’ve seen out of a Vtuber agency so far!
Also, remember that while yes, a hololive vtuber has guidelines and people telling them how to behave, they also have people to help support them. From helping them to make new outfits to guidance on how their stream went. Just like in life, it is up to you to make the best out of what you are given and there are ups and downs to either option, indie or corporate. I will say that the vast majority of vtubers have gone much farther in hololive than they were able to solo.
Agreed! There are so many upsides to being in hololive and nijisanji!
Great video. I'll check out your other videos. Thanks for your work.
Thank you for giving my channel a chance and for supporting my content 🧡
I really wish the V-Tuber community and industry stopped being so gachikoi... I may be a huge V-Tuber fan but I can't stand Parasocial relationships.
I so agree with you as well!
Love from India!
I’m glad my video reached you in India! 🇮🇳 Thanks for watching and commenting 💖
Sadly this is not happening, here in the west people are assimilating instead of criticizing it
I think this is an important video (it appeared from nowhere in my Recommended); it prompts us to reflect on what 'vtubing culture' can truly be rather than just another 'anime-based' culture; it can an empowering tool that allows people to do what they truly want in a comfortable setting. The implication of agency vtubing and the culture it perpetuates is that the things "vtubers" do are artificial and ironically violates the initial intention of "content creation": to do what one really wants. Maybe there are people out there who really want to be idols and comedians but just too shy to do so; but there are plenty more individuals who rather be doing, for eg., design analysis or cooking, or even programming, behind an avatar. You know, for the sake of their passion for what they do.
Perhaps the reason all of gachikoi thing is happening can be traced to design: We are conditioned to refer an anime-based entity as an avatar; for now 'anime' and vtubing are too closely linked. What happens if we violate this assumption, and use a tree painting as a vtuber avatar, or just a car jpeg clipped from Google search results? No anime avatar, just be whatever you wish and let the audience perceive you for what you do as a "content creator with an avatar".
Your decision to remain indie is understood and respectable; I'm interested to see more of what you actually are, and will be on the lookout for your content.
Bumping this one up for the TH-cam algorithm.
Thank you for giving my content a chance! (And thank you TH-cam algorithm 🙏 )
You’ve got good points here! Thanks for adding your insight! I can tell you that now we have VTubers that are pretty much anything under the sun, and in many different art styles! I hope more diverse creators can be recognized as the community grows!
I really liked your video, and look forward to more of your content moving forward.
_But_ I'm curious why you left out the whole "saga" related to Uruha Rushia's termination. Specifically, in your statement on the matter you said that you wished COVER would have supported her more while she was in a vulnerable mental state, but didn't mention that COVER *stood up for her* during her suspension/hiatus. Further, although none of us know for sure what happened, there appeared to be more to the story than just her defending herself via KoreKore over the Discord DM appearing on-stream. Nobody expected that COVER would take a complete 180 to terminate her when she was expected to come back.
I am not a faundead, nor do I speak fluent Japanese; I predominantly follow EN and use clips to keep up with ID and JP where possible. I also don't think that COVER is a spotless, innocent company, but I do think that they've largely cleaned up their act since Mano Aloe and HoloCN/Taiwan incident. Perhaps I missed something though, or misunderstood somewhere; please let me know if I did.
Thanks for putting out this series of videos. We really need more coverage like this in a sphere that continues to expand rapidly to this day.
Hey thanks for your comment! Honestly the Rushia part was more written from an emotional place rather than a well researched place. I figured that since I witnessed it as it happened, I had the whole story, but that wasn't the case! I try to do more research on my other videos, this one was more of a vent piece! I hope that clarifies things!
Thank you for making this video. The conversation you're contributing to is vitally important.
Just as with politics, the most problematic participants in the VTubing fanbase are also usually the loudest. Even so, you are exactly right that it should not be this hard to be respected/treated respectfully by your audience, and the corporate metaculture around the field most likely does contribute to things BEING as bad as they are.
Thank you for saying so! I was surprised that so many people agreed with me on this topic because I felt quite alone in my beliefs. It feels good to finally have it off my chest. I will feel lighter moving forward that my audience knows where I stand on this and what I want from my own content creation journey!
Detailed and respectable video coming from a person whose more experience in this field both who also knows the insides and outsides. I just hope to a person watching the video who is maybe a gachikoi inside can take these things as a wake up call. It is fine to give money as a way of gratifying for example; being there when you fall from life, lose hope, and just needed someone to make you comfortable. Then by that I believe that is a healthy way rather than giving your money as a form of 'buying them', remember that you don't own them and vice-versa. Enjoy life with logical thinking and also having a heart in yourself. Y'all be safe Kings 👑.
Oh my gosh thank you for saying so. I wish all VTubers and their fans the very best in life!
I just realized I didn’t mention how the majority of vtuber fans who donate aren’t like this, and it’s just the few ruining it for the many. Major oversight on my part. Thank you for reminding me!
@@YamAlbat Nah iz nothin. I said those unconsciously knowing about the good side of donating. I'd notice it a lot watching Ina clips and sometimes her streams. People really are chill and act 'normal' like as we talk to our friends, not this imagery of them as this one creature is above of their own levels.
Also, I never actually thought of Gachikois deeply but this video made me disgusted and pity of them. Clearly they just wanted someone to love and love them back also even though I believe they know that this not the reality, that it was all digital not an actual person. I also believe that they are doing these stuffs whatever it takes because they see their favorite idols as an escape of the IRL. Nothing bad about it but the way they act back is demoralizing. Man, I just really hope that they would one day get out and breathe out from the bubble they chose to stay.
Very true. Great analysis!
Yeah, some of this stuff is really getting harder to ignore when watching Vtubers. Gatchikoi content doesn’t cater to me, so I don’t watch it. I also don’t care for most drama as it’s usually just needlessly arguing in circles, and I don’t envy the Vtubers that have to sift through that stuff. I try to keep my distance from being too parasocial by reminding myself that the streamers live their own lives and make their own decisions, and I don’t have to agree with every single one of those decisions to enjoy watching them. And if I don’t enjoy them anymore I just leave. I really like Suisei’s TEMPLATE, as it addresses these parasocial issues in a song that’s raw af.
I do agree with the idea that Vtubers are a unique way to express a streamer’s identity. Having someone’s personality line up with features, themes, and backstory of a Vtuber is really cool, and I love seeing that persona evolve through more streams, different models to highlight changes, make lore about themselves on the spot, or have a whole video to illustrate it. Sometimes the identity a Vtuber builds isn’t even related to the original concept, but the Vtuber flies with it anyways (Haachama is my favorite example of this). Sometimes fan interactions can influence different models or lore of a Vtuber in positive ways. It takes a lot to get there, but when a Vtuber pulls this off it’s amazing.
Ok long rant over.
Thank you for sharing your insight and experience as a Vtuber.
@@foolishlyfoolishfool5747 Thank you for your analysis. I agree with you. Suisei and fubuki have both made their feelings towards parasocial relationships and I respect them for that. I hope that more and more streamers make their boundaries clear. VTubing is something I want to continue for a long time!
The algorithm has delivered me a real gem. It’s a difficult thing to look at the dark underbelly of a thing you like. However, mature, responsible analysis is how we improve. You done good here!
Thank you so much for saying so! I was concerned about posting this one, but I’m happy you and others have found value in my own personal project. I’m very glad the algorithm brought you to me!
I heard in Rushia case on her stream is mostly (if not) on GFE kind and while I think its her decision to do so I think its a dangerous route to walk at the same time. Part of me knows Rushia are aware of this possibility but still go for it. Either way it's all in the past. World moves on we moves on but the scar can never be forgotten.
I also plan to make a TH-cam video before I decide to do stream when I have all ample equipment needed. One day...
Most importantly you are on point with everything. New sub here!!
Wow thank you for giving my content a chance and for adding to the discussion! Rushia's case is a tangled web and we don't have the full story, but I agree that the GFE contributed to her downfall in some way. Again, that is why some people are concerned for Nazuna when she uses the same approach. I feel for her though, she did not deserve the level of harassment she got.
I am happy to hear that you plan to make TH-cam videos! I've had a wonderful experience on TH-cam making video content and I hope you do too!
i'm very new to v-tubing culture (post-iluna) and of course, whenever you stumble upon something new and interesting that you could potentially try as a career, you think about how you'd fit in.
i think the biggest question for me was if i'd be able to handle the parasocial aspect combined with the endless stream of hate that content creators get. if you add the pressure from your company to lean into the character trope and fan service as well it becomes easier to understand why v-tubers need so many breaks and vacations so they don't burn out completely.
so for now, the answer from me is no, and if i do decide to become a content creator, it will be on my own terms/with no agency involvement.
good video! idol culture certainly has a big impact on v-tuber agencies, and i commend you for recognizing and refusing to participate in it for the sake of your mental health and privacy.
Best of luck to you in your creative endeavors, no matter what they look like in the future! I’m glad my video was able to serve as food for thought for you!
"It builds character that's right. Everything negative that happens in your life builds character; but that's what they like to say. It also acts as a weight, an endless supply of weight on your shoulders. Unless you're one of those types that can just live and let go. Water off the duck's back." -Gawr
This type of stuff is exactly why I won't join twitter. Lol.
I appreciate all the thought you put into this video! I didn't realize how bad some of these situations were.
This was a very good video. You voiced everything I've noticed over the last 2 years that I've watched vtubers. There's a staggering amount of parasocial relationships in this community and I honestly feel like it's because of the fact that there's a subconscious disconnect between the audience and the vtuber. When you watch a video or a stream and see an actual human face, there's a mental connection made that there's a real human there, and with a 2D or 3D avatar that same mental connection isn't made as much. Yeah you may understand that there's a person behind the avatar, but without seeing their face it's easier to form that disconnect. Coupled with the facts that the avatars are always perfect and for the most part very attractive, it's easy to slip down the parasocial rabbit hole for some people. It's just a shame that there's enough of those people to where it can have the negative impacts that it does. I feel bad for those people, because they are probably lonely irl and don't have much face to face interactions with people so they form a deep connection with their favorite vtuber or vtubers and that replaces their real life relationships. However I am glad that there are some big vtubers corpo and indie alike that are setting boundaries and voicing their opinions on the matter. Things won't change over night or any time soon, but hopefully we will see less and less of this in the future
Couldn’t agree more! I think you hit the nail on the head. Thank you for your contribution!
Definitely some good and/or interesting points you touched on here and although I disagree with some of what you said here it's a good basis for much needed discussion on this topic that's been plaguing the vtubing scene for a while.
Thank you for supporting your content! I honestly expect a lot of people to disagree to some degree because I know my take is a partially extreme one. Hopefully as I get more experience as a creator I will better understand the nuance of parasociality and how to handle it!
I don't remember if this was mentioned but vtubers are allowed to be "jokingly" romantic to their friends ONLY if they're the same gender, which seems really homophobic when you think about it
Because if 2 girls or 2 boys joke about being together the viewer goes "aww so cute, well at least I still have a chance with them right?" (Not a real relationship for them..homophobic)But if they do that joke to the opposite gender they're immediately dropped for not appealing to them
Exactly. It’s such a toxic carryover from idol culture. It really frustrates me!!!
as someone who likes to live in a bubble of ignorance, I tend to not watch anything news related, but I think this video is interesting enough to let in my bubble of ignorance and that's the best compliment I can give. Also, it took me like 30-35 minutes of watching this to realise 'wait a minute... didn't I have an encounter?' someone was sending me anime gifs of people kissing and trying to become my boyfriend, and I told them I'm a dude and like they were confused and went with it anyways, so I think I just told him off and blocked him, and I'm like a really small vtuber, barely over 5 views
Thanks for watching and considering my points! That encounter in your DMs is disturbing and unacceptable. I hope encounters like that get less common as VTubers continue to stand their ground on boundaries!
Some people want to be the sugar daddy for a small streamer and control them. Some are just trolling. Some have less understandable goals.
++Agencies rely on parasocial Relationships.
- I get what you mean. But I chose to give them a spare of my money because im not looking for "Parasocial relationships" but because theyre good entertainers. Singing, Playing games, theyre comedians too and they talk about what I like, specially Anime!
++The formula to appeal to the gachikoi Vtuber experience.
#4 - How do we know if theyre actually single forever. They might be in a relationship right now. We dont know.
#9 - I dont want my Vtubers engaging on Politics. That would be Awful!
I dont want them to topic "LOTR IS WOKE NOW BECAUSE OF BLACK ELVES AND BLACK DWARVES"
or "ARIEL SHOULD BE WHITE! NOT BLACK!".
I dont want them to engage in politics, Leftist or Right Wingers. They should stay our of politics.
Generosity and giving out of the kindness of your heart because you enjoy a streamers content is wonderful and not what I am talking about in this video! Please continue to support the streamers that you appreciate!
When I say gachikois donate to a streamer to show their love and see the streamer’s gratefulness as a confirmation of their mutual love for one another, a romantic parasocial relationship is strengthened and can result in the gachikoi fan feeling upset, angry, and betrayed when their favorite streamer does not live up to their ideals/breaks the gachikoi’s fantasy immersion. Some gachikois see their money as “providing for their significant other” in a sense, and expect love in return. They’ll turn their back on a female streamer who collaborates with a male streamer and call said female streamer “ungrateful” for their support. Moral of the story is, don’t expect anything in return when you donate to a streamer and let them do what they want!
As for #4 I am talking about the character, not the IRL actress (let’s use Gawr Gura for example). Gawr Gura will forever be single, while her IRL actress may not be!
As for #9 politics aren’t the only thing that I mentioned there. It’s natural to not want politics in an escapist genre of content like VTubing (I don’t use escapist with a negative connotation here, I like the escapist element of VTubing myself). I think VTubers should be able to be free to be opinionated however. I obviously couldn’t make the content I make today in Niji or Holo. And if I did join Niji or Holo after making a video like this, fans would definitely find my past life and try to end my career prematurely. Kson with VShojo is an example of a VTuber who is opinionated and speaks her mind without getting political.
I would like to thank you for helping put into words why I don't even particularly want to monetize my content.
I feel like once that door is opened, the incentives will be pulling towards changing the content I make, and since I'm still feeling my way around to figure out what kind of creator I want to be, that seems doubly risky.
It's good to hear you've found yourself a niche you're comfortable with, even if it took wading through discomfort to get there.
I’m so glad my video helped you discover something about yourself. That honestly makes me really happy because I didn’t know if such a personal video would be if anyone. I wish you the best with all your content creation endeavors!
Your mustache makes it look like your frowning.
@@sirdropkick2251 I suffer from resting bitch-face, but I do smile on occasion.
I'm one of the clip watchers, basically casting a fishing line in the rabbit hole. I've occasionally caught some big fish, but usually the fishing day ends with laughter. This is my first deep dive into the fishing hole and I've learned quite a bit. Never thought of some of these things in this way, it's neat
That is the beauty of clips! After a long work day I can turn on clip highlights of the streams I missed and forget the world for a bit because Korone never fails to make me laugh! I think a lot of VTubers are here to spread joy, and the majority of clippers have that same goal in mind as well, transcending language barriers and time constraints. As always though, be mindful to at some clips can be taken out of context and don’t represent the person as a whole! Thank you for giving my deep dive a watch and I’m glad it’s given you something to think about!
Found this video in my recommended, and I gotta say, I think this video is very well thought out, well executed, and has a very important message. The fact that the English Vtuber boom happened during lock-down is not a coincidence. A constant reliance on social media is causing people to become much more isolated and lonely, and it seems that virtual interaction via streaming are becoming an easy way for lonely individuals to get that dopamine hit in a relatively safe and risk-free manner.
I agree that there is a lot of potential in VTubing. The idea of inhabiting a custom designed cartoon persona and using it to interact with an audience is very exciting. I think that the issues you highlight in this video are a symptom of a much larger cultural and generational problem and it is sad that Vtubing is constantly colliding with sad problem.
TLDR: I'm am very happy to have found this video and I think more people need to see and digest the issues you raise, both for some self reflection and for understanding and improving the wider online culture. Keep up the good work!
I finally got around to this long one and dang, I never really realized how "ubiquitous" the gachikoi thing is. Always thought it was a tiny loud minority... I still think I like the idea of agency life, since there's management and mentorship and all, but this does give one some things to think about..!
Hey Okas! Thanks for bearing with me on this long one! I think you’d make a great fit into an agency VTuber roster someday! Hope you get to see it happen 💛 Rooting for you friend!
thank you so much for talking about this!!! i also wanted (and still want) to be a vtuber so i can express myself by a cute design of my character! i streamed once 2 years ago and i had one viewer that was just very sexual and it made me very uncomfortable.... i really want to be able to stream like a normal streamer and not a "waifu"... your video really comforted me and gave me hope, i'm gonna sub!!
Oh no!!! That breaks my heart to hear that you immediately were made uncomfortable on stream. It’s unfortunately a very relatable experience. I hope as VTubers increase in popularity the extreme waifu culture gets drowned out a bit. I wish you all the best in your potential VTuber journey. It’s great being a cute character and I wouldn’t ever go to camera content myself. Thank you for supporting my channel and subscribing!
thank you so much for making this video. i have been saying opinions similar to this since late 2019 when hololive 4th gen was being 'released'. of course, back then people were still in their honeymoon phase so any opinion that is even remotely critical of of the space was enough to warrant you an "anti" or a hater. my qualms with vtuber culture mostly stem from the toxicity they inherited from fans of traditional idols/VAs; capitalizing on the loneliness of people through various means whether they be from GF/BF experience, only reading superchats (though i pin the blame to youtube on this one), or generally enabling this toxic positivity vibe that the community is so stuck on being because they would rather escape from all of their problems and expect streamers to hold the same candle of escapism as they do and apply that to all aspects of their life. i absolutely loathe people who gravitate to the "if you dont like xyz so much then why do you care? / just ignore it / let people enjoy things" type responses to this kind of opinions because it highlights the amount of deliberate ignorance some people in this community will go through just so they could pretend that the vtuber community is very inclusive and are above the "haters".
The part about indies being affected by the way these big agencies operate is spot-on. lots of people really dont want to say it out loud but because holo/niji is such a big influence on the current way vtubers operate their streams (as opposed to the traditional youtuber pre-recorded video vtubers of 2015-2018) indies who are trying to find their footing in the space/potential vtubers are now under the impression that they need to be derivative of the prim, gussied up idol vtubers to even stand a chance at flourishing in this space.
I am personally interested in streaming as a hobby as i find the interaction between chat and streamer to be such a big hook. i read chat on any stream i go to and its such a shame that the normal chats on big vtubers are mostly just reactions which the streamer can't bounce off of, so the streamer gravitate towards reading the donation messages, which in turn makes it so that anyone who wants to chat to the streamer normally has to pony up some cash to get a chance of it getting read, which creates a feedback loop that really misses out on the type of content and bits that i really like. i still like vtubers as a concept and i hope people grow out of the limitations set out by our current circumstances and make this space truly free for self-expression.
Thank you for contributing to the conversation and for supporting my content! I agree, I feel like since the culture is so homogenized (especially in 2019 because the scene was smaller) that criticism and differing opinion is hard to voice. I think I mentioned this in the video but for me, I was neutral or vaguely positive whenever talking about this type of culture until I couldn't personally handle staying quiet about how I was personally getting treated as a VTuber. It feels so freeing to finally have all my cards out on the table, but at the same time a little melancholy knowing that will never be me up there at Holofes! I can make my own treasured moments though, and you can too! I hope where ever your streaming hobby takes you, that it remains a fun activity for you!
The worst thing anyone could be is obsessive, to the point of destructive tendencies (both for yourself and the target of your affection). Ultimately, parasocial relationships are impossible to avoid, but they can be benign as long as the initiator keeps realistic expectations regarding reciprocation.
Gachikois are so deep in the obsessive side that I'm not sure most of them could be fished out. If this streamer, this escape from your daily grind, is all you (can percieve you) have, it's SO MUCH EASIER to become irrationally attached to it, and hostile towards anyone genuinely trying to help you. It's like fixing a drug addict; a slippery slope that seems to always go up.
Japan as a country is also infamous for how crushed daily life can be most of the time. Nevermind black companies, their national pride is part of what led to their suffocating work culture, from which something like idol culture itself is sometimes the only escape. See how this spirals out of control?
Despite how integrated these themes are with the vtuber community, I see a lot of people acknowledging how everything is set up. Despite the truth they hold, It definitely hurts to hear the ways people dislike vtubing. It makes me think where I am in this whole thing, and I can't help but feel upset about it all
I believe this video holds a very understanding point of view, but very much acknowledges the problems at hand. I think about these things, the moral standards of this community and instead of feeling ashamed of the community I'm part of, I felt a lot more satisfied, thinking of what the options for individuals are. It's not black and white, and the poor things to be seen in the community are commons, not a summary of the whole thing.
So, thank you for sharing in the most understandable way.
I'm glad you know what your thoughts are on the subject.
Thank you for contributing to the conversation and for supporting my content! It’s natural to feel upset about this topic. heck, I was upset about this topic I had to make this video. But I hope you and I can both move forward in a positive mindset while still keeping this knowledge at hand. I’m going to personally continue to make videos on VTubers with appreciative spirit, while also continuing to educate myself on the potential dangers of being a content creator with an audience as I grow.
thank you so much for making this video and speaking on these experiences!! it’s such an interesting and relevant topic to human relationships in general. i see a lot of hope in this amazing medium for self-expression too. i have friends who are VTubers/PNGtubers who have such wholesome and amazing communities. I guess I’ll take this opportunity to speak on my own feelings about the topic :).
I’ve always watched VTubers without any interest in the lewd/parasocial culture. I love the personalities of many VTubers and the appreciation I feel for their personality is like the appreciation I feel for any other creator. They’re just people! There are some content creators I feel a connection with, and I think that’s a very wholesome, genuine thing. It’s like feeling a connection with a music artist for who they are in interviews, while at the same time feeling how they captured an experience or sense of identity that you resonate with in their music. Being able to see and appreciate someone for what they do, how they respond to things; their sensibilities, their humor, the perspectives they share, etc.
While parasocial relationships when taken seriously, with *expectations from the creator, are almost always bound for toxicity - a relationship with the creator with no expectation, with respect, and with a balanced perspective becomes something really wonderful :). Like in music, the relationship between fan and artist is super wholesome until fans begin expecting and demanding things, demanding to know more than what the artist wants to give them.
Appreciation is very different from idolatry and the transactional relationships which are what parasociality (is that a word? it’s a word now xD) is all about.
I love a content creator for how they present themselves and what they do :). Content creation is a form of human connection that can become something truly meaningful, like in the case of my friends, like in the case of the artists and creators who have inspired me to be who I truly am. Through self expression: art, content, whatever it is - we can express who we truly are and make connections because of it. In a small community or large one, that’s something to be revered and so appreciated ;~;.
VTubing is much more than just the culture it’s developed. It’s a shared experience that is unique for every person who watches for their own reasons. Many of these reasons will be questionable, unhealthy, or flat out destructive. Many will be casual, for purely entertainment value. And some will result in people feeling safe, at home, and in a wholesome space when they really need one.
If u do read this, I wish u the most fulfillment and peace with your VTubing endeavors in the future!! You have a unique perspective/personality that clearly has a lot of integrity, and I hope you prosper for that ^^.
“Appreciation is very different from idolatry and the transactional relationships are what parasociality is all about”
Literally couldn’t have said it better myself. I think you could take my job 🙈 have you considered becoming a video essayist? I agree with all your sentiments here, thank you for reminding me why being a (healthy) fan can be such a wonderful thing. Wonderful comment, thank you for the support!
@@YamAlbat :’), i appreciate ur reply so much!! i’m not a video essayist, but i’m actually writing a fiction book that involves an indie VTuber main character!! i wanna write something that’s really empowering and sincere, and maybe fulfill some VTuber dreams i’ll never actually do myself :P. and i wanna do so with respect and recognition for the whole experience, positive and negative. i see something rly beautiful in VTubing and i can express these feelings best in stories!!
if at some point in the future i wanted to gain more insight on the nuances and real process of VTubing, would it be okay if i contacted u somewhere about it? it’s ok if not, your videos are insightful and helpful enough in themselves :).
NOOOOO WAY!!! That’s so cool! Do you have a twitter? I’d love to follow the project! (And yes you can always DM me on Twitter! I’m @yamkoumori)
@@YamAlbat :D, I DON'T HAVE A TWITTER LIKE AN OFFICIAL TWITTER (I totally need to make that still I'm literally on the second draft of the book and haven't even got social medias for it yet x_x) BUT I MIGHT HAVE TO MAKE ONE SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS xD. THANK U SO MUCH FOR THAT, I'll DM u sometime soon about it!!
I hope that you find success doing things the way that you enjoy and believe is best
Thank you for the kind comment and support on the video!
It takes some real courage to speak against status quo and its flaws.
People who are genuine and stay true to themselves always find a more lasting success, so keep it up doing what you love they way you feel is best for you.
Thank you for the support! I am excited to get back to my typical content after putting this all out on the table. I’m very passionate about VTuber designs and I’m hoping to continue to center my channel around them 💛
I know the community is getting very toxic now but nijisanji was the thing that inspired me wanting to become a content creator, like that girl said I worked on singing, editing, Japanese but if I dont audition I know all of that would just go to waste for me but for me I feel like the space around nijisanji is very nice and has the right amount of kindness within them
I agree, things seem to be getting better. I wish you all the best in your potential VTuber journey if you do decide to go for it! Thanks for sharing 🧡
I treat these streamers as normal people. I'm there to enjoy the content. Will like a few of them because their my favorite to watch. Just like the irl streamers I watch I want the best of them even it does involve stepping down, it is for the best because their still human. But I'll never think of them as my friend/romance option. Because we're just strangers in the end
Very great attitude to carry! I feel the same way!
A tough video on a dark subject, but thank you for making it. It's awful that your experiences in VTubing have had such unpleasant moments! I hear a lot of the same sort of things from RL streamers and creators, too, and sticking a VTuber model between you and the audience just means the audience fixates on the layer you place between yourself and the outside... but there is always going to be a portion of the audience that will fixate, if you're female on the internet.
I will say that I did get a slightly adult-subjects-negative vibe from the video? I can entirely understand where it's coming from, and it's an entirely valid response to things you've both seen and experienced. But from my own experiences in VTubing, I think that some part of the "let's be yabai on stream" motivation for creators is not so much to appeal to the audience and get those clicks and bits and akasupas, but because there are some people who are genuinely doing their youthful sexual self-expression and exploration this way. Hell, some people who didn't get to do that stuff in their youth are doing it now, in forms that best suit them and that appeal to others in ways their RL selves never could. That, I think, is both valuable AND potentially risky. You started things off with that Ironmouse clip with her saying that she can feel just as parasocial to her audience, after all. A creator can sink so deep into self-gratification that they don't realize where they've ended up and what kind of people they've drawn in.... but on the other hand, a creator can find out more about who they are and what they genuinely want out of life, too. If VTubing gives people that liberty to be what they want, free of the fetters of mundane reality, then sometimes they're going to choose be loud and sexy and crass.
Agreed! I stand for the content creator’s ability to make whatever kind of content they want. I hope I made that clear in my video! The point I was trying to make here was that I hope that fans can learn to respect the boundaries of each individual creator. Another thing I wanted to make clear with this video is I’m not judging anyone for what content they make, even if it is yabai content, but I do want creators who do decide to make yabai content that leans into the romantic parasocial aspect to be informed of the risks involved with doing so. I know that there is no way to avoid all parasocial relationships on the internet. However, I stand by my opinion that making “boyfriend experience” and “girlfriend experience” type content will inevitably attract more romantic parasocial relationships your way. Like I said in the video, I will happily respect these creators from a distance and focus my attention on the creators who make content that appeals to me! Thank you for adding your thoughts to the discussion!
hope u can overcome this situation, its really disheartening to see these people treat vtubers like that but like u i still hold hope for the vtubers scene and its potential
Holding onto hope for the scene is a great thing to do! Thank you for the support and I appreciate the kind words!
First and foremost thank you for making this video, I'm still investigating if this whole thing is a good idea (even when it's kinda different for men). It's an eye opener in many subjects, to a certain point.
The avoiding controversial statements part I think it's a must for anyone that doesn't want to get caught in the drama and the obvious harassment right after that. Many know China's current government isn't legit and the real gov escaped to Taiwan, but their brainwashed populace will defend until "justice" gets served (basically like Twitter and Tumblr). Saying it loud caused Coco to graduate.
The real problem are both the close minded (and mentally ill) big fishes in the agencies that force those dumb rules and the fans that follow those rules like their lives depends on it.
It's starting to change tho. Yesterday 13/Oct/22 Kronii and Calli did a collab with Holostars Dezmond and the other dude. Basically telling the "fans" to F off and that they'll do what they consider fit.
Cursing or being yabai in general is not a must, Fauna is super seiso and doesn't need OR LIKE cursing. But being yabai isn't that much of a problem, some people feel more comfortable with such outspoken people (I guess that's why Kson made her persona an "outspoken delinquent", bc that how Asian traditionalists see women like her).
Thank you for contributing to the conversation and supporting my content! I agree with your statements. I look up to kson for speaking her mind, and I’m glad fauna has been able to make the content she’s comfortable with herself.
I think if you want to get into VTubing, the most important thing is to set boundaries early on and don’t give into the pressure on things that would make you uncomfortable. As for auditioning for a company, make sure the overall work environment and company culture are things you could see yourself participating in yourself. Good luck!
Thanks for creating this video! I enjoyed watching it once I saw it on my Twitter feed and pretty much agree with everything you say. If you boil it down, agencies and corporations want money and use these appealing traits in their talents to generate money. And that many corporate Vtubers are intertwined with both waifu culture and idol culture, to a point that people's lives have complete changed or that people feel a need to accomodate the audience most willing to spend their savings for parasocial relationships. I appreciate your video essays and that you are able to find more of what you want to do, especially in regards to content creation. And hope things continue to look up for you. Will be looking forward to watching you more. ;D
On a personal note, I also try to not adhere to the gachikoi appeal even if doing as so could mean more personal success. It just doesn't make me comfortable, and why I stopped watching Vox even when I liked him initially, and watch Mysta more for his relatable views and perspective. For now, I hope to create video essay content as well, even if I don't know how to edit that well, and just be myself really and create content that I truly am interested in sharing with the rest of the world.
Thank you for sharing your personal experience and taking a chance on my video on Twitter!
It can be a worrying realization that appealing to the gachikoi audience is current most reliable way to make money in the VTuber sphere. It can make those who aren’t willing to do it feel like we are limiting our own success. But I do genuinely encourage you to seek out the content you want to make, and I wish you the best on your own video essay endeavors! More vtubers should try making them! 🧡
@@YamAlbat Of course! It was a very worthwhile watch, I assure you. And it is true that gachikoi often equals being able to make a lot of money, at least looking on Twitter or TH-cam for the larger Vtubers. Also why not adhering to those tropes can mean slower means of success. But in the end, doing what you feel is right, and enjoying the content creation process is what is truly important as that is when creating content feels the most fulfilling for your own self. And thanks for your kind words as I really appreciate it! I wanted to create video essays from the start when I got into Vtubing, tho because I don't know how to edit well, its kinda nervewracking. But as long as I like what I do, I can do it in some way. Lol
Corporations gonna corporate. They care about nothing if it doesn't cater to the bottom line. Any resistance will be destroyed.
@@madpinoy5683 Pretty much!
@@echoesvtuber The closer someone is to an anime-style vTuber, the more fans of anime-style vTubing they will have to deal with. If someone is not into certain areas of anime culture or gaming culture, they will meet a lot of people they don't know how to deal with. For example you want to narrate a video on wood-turning. With an anime style character you will get weebs and kids before you get much interest from serious adults who want to know more about woodcraft. If you are passionate about a subject then you should foremost be sure to not drive away others who may be interested in the same topic.
I subbed cause of your insight on Vtuber models, and this topic seems too heavy on peoples minds to not be addressed. There's not much that I would be able to say that has not been said already right here, so I want to share a bit of my heart and mind to you and anyone who takes a second of interest into reading this.
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Who here remembers Moymoypalaboy MMD Meme from 11 years ago? Well, back then I don't recall it being called a meme yet, I would say its hard to not see it as one. Back then, I was already envisioning an interesting future were, long story short, was coming to being with the Vtubing uprising. As an artist myself, I personally feel that if I could make a creation, a design, and allow someone else to give it life, that is one of the most gorgeous compliments my art could have. From an early age being charmed by fascinating stories back when anime was not even popular, even ostracized, I always held true that music, visual arts, and narrative, when put together they can do amazing things, touch peoples hearts in a very special way, and if we get past the bite size consumption of "episodes" or "shorts" by someone becoming "fully animated", that would make not only a notorious step forward in technology but also in art.
I'm also very attracted to marketing. There's no bigger appeal to me in a game than having a market run by the players. Series like Spice and Wolf, and playing the market in games like WoW, Maplestory and even Mabinogi has always been my favorited choices and most fond memories. The heart of a merchant, if you will. As such, I don't know the deep intricacies of the idol industry, but the product sales management side of things, to create demand where there is not a need, is a fundamental basis of being a merchant. It is very sad that the idea itself at it's core can be exploited very easily, and yet being a merchant is all about holding the best cards...its a very hard position for me to pick a side, although I clearly see the suffering some marketing tropes are generating.
I remember a past elderly family member, and the times I used to tell her stories of the games I played, in a very generic sense, as she marveled every day to keep telling the story of the blonde soldier with the giant sword. Back then I realized that there are people in this world that has given me feelings that I would have never considered on my own, dreams of wonderful scenarios that can be forged for others to feel. I been dazzled by that brightness, and since then the "normal life" has never been as appealing. It could be as easy as letting it go and going about and "survive life": get an office job, earn enough, retire and then some... but... How these creators that have moved me so deeply must have felt before they started...?
Vtubing's popularity rise is due to the idol industry's marketing antics, and sadly I don't see the similitudes even unmerging years down the line. As I mourn all who suffer from being bedazzled, every day I watch a video, I hear a voice in my head saying "are you entertained or are you an entertainer?" and remember why it matters.
Some wont understand all this, some might be too youth, too naïve to fully comprehend the absurdity and beauty of all this, but as a final heart to heart I will only say "Never stop chasing, for your light might guide someone else's dazzling future"
We are at a world's turning point both technologically and artistically. There are always those who want to profit from every turning point, is the innate curse of a merchant's heart. I can only pray for you(all who read this far) to steel your mind, both as the entertainer or the one being entertained.
"I must keep moving forward blinded, for I too want to create that dazzling mind scape and share this bliss within"
End note: I don't mind if this comment generates conflicting opinions or winded discussions, nitpicking at every part of it on the reply section(most likely won't, but just in case), just keep it civilized as you share your thoughts. I'm just hoping for this comment to click positively into someone stressing over content consumed or created.
Thank you for sharing your own thoughts and analyses! Personally I became an artist, musician, and now a content creator because I have a drive that just can’t be satisfied through anything else but creating. I wish you the best in all your creative endeavors yourself!
I do miss the "Everybody" motion capture meme, now I feel a bit sad.
The smallest distillation of current vTubing is that too many people are debuting into stereotyped character roles and not creating anything new or sustainable. That's why the shork said anyone interested in streaming should try it first before making elaborate preparations.
honest my take away from this is, if people weren't so deluded and end up developing that parasocial relationship, it'd be fine
True!
What’s crazy is.. it’s just a voice.. and yet the rules of human idols still apply for a voice is crazy.
One day I’m gonna make an analysis on VTubers and their voices
It’s not just a voice. It’s a character literally designed to be as attractive or cute as possible, to prey on the loneliest people.
'Toxic Fan' culture has always been around, 'Idol Culture's just a strong flavor of it common in the 'vtuber' medium probably indeed due to companies such as Hololive & Nijisanji getting as big as they have. As to say, even without them, you're going to have some people detach themselves in some way of their own realities to escape with, be it a fictional character, 'idol' or 'celebrity' of some sort. Even to this video, there's a lot that could be criticized, but other comments have either already addressed them and been acknowledged or probably aren't important enough to drone on about. The important thing is adhering that there is a problem and actually doing something about it even if it's not a perfect solution or has a very flawed start which I believe something like this video has done. It was quite insightful and rather interesting to listen to, and I wish you success in figuring out the prospects of such a medium for yourself as well to comfortable fit into with all the struggles involved.
Thank you for your analysis and kind wishes! I think you have good points here! Idol and toxic fan culture has soooo many nuances and avenues to explore. I just wanted to make a video on it that pertained to my own perspective as an indie who’s trying to avoid romantic parasocial relationships and objectification as much as I can. I encourage everyone to delve further into the topic if they are interested and come to their own conclusions too!
nice vid you made, thank you for the information.
Thanks for supporting the channel!
@@YamAlbat
dont thank me,. hope you just be happy.
In my personal thought, I feel indifferent to the conclusion that it's the top company's decisions that endorses these sorts of gachikoi relationships. I would say it bounds to happen if the talents with huge followers put out content that may convey intimate parasocial stuff, whether intentional or not. These companies are just the amplifier of the effect with their investment into the exposure of those talents, such as merch, meeting events, or voice packs.
hololive has initial intention was to showcase 'idols' but I guess they have been revising their image for the better, but nijisanji pretty much advocates content variety and let the talents do their own stuff from the beginning. Plenty of talents in these and other vtuber companies could just do their own stuff, creating their own niche of content and community without having to deal with such issues.
These are probably one of the things all sorts of content creators just had to watch out for while giving out their kinds of fan services. I'm very against interfering with talent's will and creativity and i'm quite convinced the talents are not pushed to do something unwillingly (except PR and even restricting the talents towards yabai stuff). I guess these weird behaviors would happen to indies anyway with or without the existence of these companies. It even already occurred among some non-vtubing content. **Minecraft tubers...**
But anyway, since these topics are popping up and becoming frequent talks or casual jokes, it's likely gonna be better for everyone til the point 'Vtubers are just another content creators' will become realized. So don't be too discouraged about doing vtuber stuff or joining larger companies or communities. (It was far worse a year ago on JP side i believed, it's just need sometimes for nature to heal)
Agreed! I’m very pro talent freedom at the end of the day! I believe everyone should have the freedom to create what kind of content they want to create! My only wish is for talents to understand the potential risks involved with whatever path they choose. Thanks for adding your insight to the discussion!