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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- Original VOD: www.youtube.co...
All my socials + Discord: yamalbat.carrd...
The original post this VOD is based off of:
When is it okay to publicly talk about the past life of a VTuber?
Green light 🟢1:
If a VTuber is open about their own past life. If the VTuber shows their own IRL face in their stream or talks about their own past life, that’s a green light to go ahead and talk about that connection!
Green light 🟢2:
If a VTuber has graduated from an agency and is trying to get their audience to notice their new indie VTuber persona. This doesn’t apply to if the VTuber doesn’t reincarnate as an indie. Respect a creator's privacy if its clear that they are done with the spotlight!
The green lights listed above are the only two instances where it is okay to publicly make a connection between a Vtuber and their past life. Now let’s go over some instances where it’s really not ok to expose a VTubers past life.
Red light 🔴1:
When their past life is leaked before debut, don’t talk about their PL or spread the leak! Leaks can make the new VTuber nervous and uncomfortable, and can even cause trouble for them if their PL has made mistakes in the past or doesn't fit the agency ideals!
Red light 🔴2:
Similar to spreading leaks, public speculation is a no go! If a new debuted VTuber is speculated to be VTuber X but it turns out they aren't, the new VTuber is already starting with a disappointed audience. That's totally unfair to the new VTuber!
Red light 🔴3:
When a vtuber is live, NEVER bring up their past life if the streamer didn't bring it up first! Even if a vtuber is open with their PL, if it isn’t relevant to the current stream, don’t bring it up! This can break the immersion they are trying to create!
Red light 🔴4:
Don't compare past lives and current personas. Never tell a Vtuber “I liked it when you were [PL] more!” Chances are, the VTuber is most happy with their current persona, and it can be hurtful to hear that.
In general, we should all be more cautious with talking about a VTuber’s past life. The tride and true “would you want this to happen to you?” Type question is important here! And remember: doxxing is a crime!
At the end of the day, VTubers are real people with life’s and families they want to protect. Doxxing information on them can end their activities prematurely. If you are dying to talk about a VTuber's past life, a private chat among friends is where you do it. Spreading this information publicly could possibly end your new oshi's career. Don’t be that guy/gal who ruins it for the VTuber and their fans!
![[VTuber History] How Agency VTubers Found their Footing through Lore](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Uw_g_dRAEFA/mqdefault.jpg)
I’d personally say that the diff between depressed nousagi talking about the PL and normal people doing so is because he locked it behind a paywall which just feels greedy when you can find the info online, so I wouldn’t say people are upset at him leaking the PL but rather more so that it’s pay locked :)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I feel like there were two camps, those who were upset at the paywall and those who were upset about him leaking the PL!
Honestly, as much as I don't like DN, I don't think that any of what he did was all that bad. Not any of what I understand he did, anyways.
It's moreso the way he handled the backlash that made his actions come off in a bad light in retrospect.
@quartzninja good to know, I didn’t think of it from that perspective!
@@quartzninja what do you mean, him crumbling down right after and before going on hiatus coping and being kinda whatever about spilled milk? I didn't really get poked by his actions afterwards, but I might also just be too desensitized already.
My take on that was that he really forgot that a paywall doesn't make it some kind of "safe" 4chan corner to talk about it. Seeing himself as just a little guy being happy to talk about this stuff away from the darker online corners and not yet getting how far his reach has gotten, until the predictable crash happened due to the nature of his content.
Was an unwanted recipe for disaster. But that's only my rrat.
When it comes to cancel culture I subscribe to Ironmouse's philosophy of only putting your foot down for something egregious like eating 12 babies or something.
11 babies is the limit
Based iron mouse
Ironic coming from someone who actually has a child
so, the rule of thumb when it comes to discussing past lives has been agreed to be:
1- don't say it AT the talents nor their Alts
2- prioritize the "secret" part of Open Secret for Agency VTubers until graduations
2,5- if an Indie or (somehow) an Agency allows otherwise then just ask around to make sure
3- Friends don't let Friends engage in Cancel culture
basically, just flow with the Kayfabe: if Kayfabe says DemonDice & Vtuber who sounds like DDK are 2 different people then you treat them as 2 people. If Kayfabe says that LaeDee & Kerwoe are the same then you can treat them interchangeably, but is more polite to call her LaeDee on TVS streams
Yep you got it! Great analysis!
I figured I would give you all a quick livestream edit to tide you over until my 2.0 model is done and I am publishing videos again! Soooo sorry for the weird audio quality on this one, the BGM was way too loud on my stream and I tried my best to make my voice a little more clear...
This is a very nuanced topic, so feel free to leave your own thoughts down below in the comments!
aaah no worries no worries, Yam-sensei...! ganbare...!
- 'am wondering if the culture/ethical-behavior shift applies to the JP Vtuber community as well? Or is that shift in talking about the Vtuber's former career mostly in the international/EN side...?
- There's individual action or recommended adherence to the guidelines outline in the vid...thanks for outlined action and discussion!
Maybe what becomes tricky is when groups of folks start moving and those individual acts get piled together on diff social media...
Maybe the algorithms as well as the social media platforms tending to somehow promote drama, controversy, and hate should also be considered? The aggregate acts and attitudes of fans somehow get amplified by social media algos perhaps, and considering the impact of social media algos in the discussion on Vtuber fan etiquette might help, too?
13:01 oooh what one individual could do! This suggestion... maybe this is what leads folks to go to sites and boards that offer satisfaction to curiosity?
What you mentioned here is private chats... peeps forming their own and talking about past lives in private... so that's why discords of many peeps talking about past lives exist... so perhaps a grey area? That it could be OK for an individual to join those kinds of groups, and maybe it's possible for those groups as a collective to apply kinder, more considerate guidelines in their own groups to respect the private lives and human rights of creators?
gomen for the long post! but arigatou for the talks!
also omedetou with milestones like strimming on Vstream as well as new vids and new name too!
tthis is truly my fave part of the stream and I agree to your thoughts and everyone else's opinion...go and hype for your new model!!!!
Great video highlight, Yam.
I think Keniisu makes a great point at 8:03 about how recent agency debuts have caused a shift in how people feel about past lives.
While most agency VTubers who debuted in 2021 and 2022 were still content creators in their Past Lives, most would been small enough that only a handful of people would be 'in the know' and even fewer people would publicly speculate about that PL knowledge.
Now that the standards for joining big VTuber agencies are higher, bigger creators are being chosen to work for Holo, Niji and VSJ, meaning more people know about a creator's work. This means hundreds and sometimes thousands of people know about a VTubers previous work.
At that scale, it's almost inevitable that some people may speculate
Your take on cancel culture and second chances is EXACTLY how I feel. I absolutely despise people who dig up stuff on Vtuber past lives where they may have made a dumb mistake or there are rumors that they did something bad but it can't necessarily be proven, yet some random hater will find that info and leak it to everyone when clearly the person we see all the time is definitely not the same as they used to be or how people in their past claimed them to be. There's just no reason to spread that info, especially because they probably can't prove it and it's almost always something that no one is ever gonna discuss now. It's just not necessary to put it out there and I refuse to spread that stuff.
I know it’s a risky thing to talk about, and a lot of people will disagree with me. But I genuinely feel like it’s an important thing to discuss. As a content creator I know there will be a day where I make a public mistake and I am labeled irredeemable in the eyes of the internet. I would love to be able to move on with my life when that day comes. That day seemingly comes for every content creator.
@@YamAlbat I can basically guarantee that some people will hate me because I'm opinionated and loud lol. Some people already do hate me and I'm barely a creator yet, I'm just a clipper that has a minor presence on Twitter..but I guess that's basically enough for people to hate me. I even have a few in the previous fandom I was in who don't like me because I stood up for my friends who had transphobic people harass them and because I got some minor attention from one of the celebrities we all followed. It's pretty ridiculous...but at least I'm confident enough in my own convictions that I was the better person in those situations so I could care less if people hate me for that lol.
@@YamAlbat I thinkthere's a difference between "this creator said something stupid when they were young" and "this creator is proven to have tried to groom minors in their audience."
Appreciated! I don't have enough time to dive into your streams and need something like this to still listen to what you have to say about the community.
One thing that surprised me a bit and even made me happy for a moment was when you talked about DN. I follow you two and no other person in this field of vtuber commentary/analysis/drama/etc., so seeing that you see his case in a nuanced light was something I liked to see.
When he came back he even said that he learned things regarding to gender identities in Uni and was respectful about it, something his chat sadly didn't take too gracefully. That made me even like him a bit after months of just consuming his content.
One thing about cancel culture, a tiny bit longer than expected and potentially something we won't agree on...
In the vtuber space, this animosity coming from this specific kind of cancel culture is something I still see to this day, related to the GFE and Rushia. Whenever I see her getting brought up (or I'm the one to do it), there will be more people still mentioning the case than people just talking about her in a positive or neutral way. Like, that's her legacy now, being frowned upon from male weebs all over the world.
This might just come from the thing of guys feeling more for the poor Gachi's seeing themselves getting betrayed by their online GF to have contact to other men than anything else, this shared sentiment of loneliness and not getting laid, maybe just the usual misogyny we all were brought up with and too safe to thrive in a community that's dominated by male fans.
I really don't like seeing that all the time, it's just pecking on someone as a past time at this point.
There is something tho where I see cancel culture being important - when there's behaviour that's not necessarily punished by law, but definitely not okay, regardless of the angle.
Like, racism, male abuse of power, sexual harassment/abuse/exploitation, misogynistic slander, such things. Such cases can be pretty hard to handle in court, especially when there's only two people involved, yet if there was such very problematic behaviour confirmed to happen anyway, then waiting for law enforcement to finish the case, and maybe even with the problematic person coming out unharmed, depending on where a trial is held and who is handling it... Then it can be pretty important for the public to make itself known that certain things shouldn't be tolerated and that some people have to be stripped of their power and positions, if possible.
Sadly, CC has become a joke thanks to the unhinged nature of people online and the way platforms like Twitter work. Nuance is once again a thing I'd like to see more, but I just can't expect that from the world.
So... Yeah. Specifically in the case of the vtuber landscape I'm totally with you there, just wanted to add this to not dismiss this topic completely, since I've seen it being used as a dog whistle catering towards rather unsavory and dangerous groups and beliefs.
Have a very nice day, thank you for your time and I'd love to have more of these stream edits in the future if possible!
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! In regards to DN, I see our relationship as two sides of the same coin. Him and I don't agree on many things, but he gives a perspective I cannot, which is a young male fan from 4chan. Though DN and I have the opposite opinion on just about everything, that just means we can both make content on the same topics but from different perspectives. His videos speak to a different side of the community, and I can respect that! I believe if you watch our videos side by side, you can get the full spectrum of opinion within the VTuber niche!
As for cancel culture, unfortunately the edit was getting very long, but I do believe there is a much more nuanced discussion to be made on the subject. Heck, I could probably make a 2 hour video essay on every nuanced aspect of cancel culture myself. However, for the sake of specifically talking about VTuber past identites, I don't think the fact that someone said something unsavory years ago justifies doxxing them. That was the point I was trying to make in this stream highlight!
@@YamAlbat I'm with you there that I don't agree with him on main and since I'm neither a 4chaner, nor someone from SEA, there's a bigger gap with vibes and angles. But indeed, his kind of insight stays relevant, and just like you implied, what you two put out really complements the other quite well, and this is why I'm thankful for your work. Seeing how male-dominated the vtuber commentary/analysis scene is, you really are an oddball and it's great.
CC: Yep, you talking specifically about vtubing in this context was clear. I really wish that more people would check in on you...
But making a whole video essay about the general topic of CC... Smells like a big risk, even when done in a nuanced way. If this wasn't just meant as a "I have the drive to talk about it that would fit in a 2h long video essay", but a real idea for your channel, please take care to not get yourself burned. 👀
I'm always of the opinion:
If it's publicly available it's not doxxing, but it is a dick move to spread it around.
man as an indie vtuber who's not into corporate vtubers at all, hearing that Having Had A Partner before or Critizising Agencies is already enough to get you in trouble sounds Terrifying
Fave part of the live stream I manage to listen and witness....truly edited well of this discussion...
truly varies for eveyrone Ganbare!!!
Its a very nuanced topic yes, thank you very much for the comment!
My only big opinion on this subject personally is that i genuinely think its extremely sleezy to legit try and chase a creator off of the internet for doing something, and then all the sudden all those same people are cool with doing that same thing all of the sudden, i think its about as sleezy, even more so even, than the original person who did the thing. Say what you want about DN but i saw soooo many people who legit contributed to his harassment suddenly be all chill with publicly talking about the past lives of recent company debuts. Like??? The people who did that in my personal opinion are even more sus then DN cuz at least DN was up front about it. Its the hypocrisy for me
Dude, the thumbnail for this is awesome. Great video and keep up the good work. 👍
Thank you!
i will say this also, what DP wanted and always showed was he wanted ppl to know how hard these Vtubers worked and how much they should be respected for what they did to get where they are.
I can see that sentiment! thank you for sharing your thoughts!
3:55 Meanwhile, Connor is still shamed on 4chan for saying Holo is Ez mode (yeah he did not mean it like that but it is what it is).
🤭 I remember that clip yeah
BASED takes! Very informative and well thought out.
Thank you！
I would say first but Yam's already commented on her own video.
lol thanks for commenting anyways!
Whats your opinion on (and I'll be vague but I'm pretty sure you know who I'm talking about): when an agency vtuber graduates and starts streaming indie again, people start chatting with their previous agency life's oshi mark in their username? Or even their current oshi mark next to their previous one? I personally would be so mad about that even if I didn't regret/dislike my past life. Especially since addressing it might break an NDA
a while back i found someone's alt account, a really small one, that was easy to just forget it and stay silent BUT today i found someone's PL whom had banned me and they were talking normally in chat and did not ban me... NGL i am confused as how i should deal with this...
firstly should i leave them so they don't feel pressured to find a "applicable" reason to ban me (i did change a lot since 8 months ago, they never saw that...) or should i stick around and just not redo those mistakes... in either case i totally can't bring it up, can't even ask the people around or the mods since they them selves don't appear to have noticed... (and then their PL might spread...)
secondly, if they do bring it up, not sure how i would deal with that as well... anyhow i kind of don't want to bother them even tho they did not seemed bothered by my presence. i guess this is just one of those questions you can't google!
tho landed here from google looking for something like that. i got the mind to not go "tongue and cheek" with some little "i know it's you" hints but NGL it's a weird kind of itch you can't scratch!
I would say if they banned you, they might not want you coming back to their channel even in a new life. I would say that lurking or leaving them alone completely is the most respectful way to handle this situation!
What do you think of PNGtubers?
Theyre great!
I don't see what would be the difference between a vtuber that left a company to go indie VS a vtuber that went to another company in terms of trying to get their audience back. Why would one be ok and the other not?
It depends on the new company’s fan culture. And since every company is different, I would be wary of that.
For instance, if the old agency was supportive of VTubers collabing with the opposite sex, having a partner, being outspoken on opinions, and/or doing NSFW content, but the new agency fans are not supportive of those things, this VTuber could suffer the same fate as Mano aloe.
This will never happen to a corporate vtuber going indie, because they aren’t susceptible to the same hivemind type fan culture as an indie. I hope this makes sense!
also there are NDA limitations as Zaion's VA confirmed, which is why streamers like KSon & Mikeneko can be very cheeky but can't outright say it
@@YamAlbat I see the reasons, but i still cant agree. Feels like it will depend on case by case basis and not a corpo vs Indie thing. Both Nyanners and Veibae started dating while in Vshojo and the Vshojo fans were Very supportive. Meanwhile I've seen a few cases of Indie vtubers getting bashed for mentioming a boutfriend or husband.
I'm 25 mins late cuz I was watching your "Why you'll never see me in Hololive or Nijisanji" vid. 😭😭😭
There’s no such thing as late! Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@YamAlbat ty. :)
could you make gx aura model analysis?
Thanks for the suggestion! I’ve considered talking about brand representative VTubers in a future upload, and she would fit into that video quite nicely!
@@YamAlbat that sounds exciting
Is it really doxxing tho if those infos was obtained publically available informations? Like the very definition of doxxing is obtaining sensitive information not available in public
“Doxing (sometimes written as Doxxing) is the act of revealing identifying information about someone online, such as their real name, home address, workplace, phone, financial, and other personal information. That information is then circulated to the public - without the victim's permission.”
Hey My Comment Was Seen On The Video Neet
👀
Yam, first off good video, sorry I really zone out when lirking in your stream. but as a vtuber who makes content off of other vtuber's past. The Depressed Nousagi(DN) was innocent take was a strong take, as I had the same stance as you, but he apparently leaked kiara's unarchieved streams and weak moments, as well as give out their past work locations. He said he paid walled it to keep the information in, but He gave out way to much doxing information. Also, Depressed Nousagi got called out by Khyo, False Eyed, beelzfly, and a lot of other news/drama vtubers. DN went from 600k to graduation in less than a month. Beelzfly would make an baised take against dn after interviewing DN. For the most part I agree with the boundaries, but Agency vtubers, dislike when you dig up their past.
I never called DN innocent. I have a neutral stance on the DN situation personally. However, I just think it’s strange how the same people who were attacking DN are digging through past lives of VTubers in 2023 despite claiming to be against it earlier when it was popular to criticize DN. That doesn’t put me on anyone’s side here ^^"
Thanks for the comment! i hope my comment helped clear things up!
truth is PPl did not care really that DN was talking about past life stuff they where mad he did not give it to them free of charge even though they could have done the leg work them selves.but if they said that they would have just looked like d**ks so they lied as ppl do.
thank you for sharing your thoughts!
I don't 100% agree with the controversies/"cancel culture" point, but really just when it comes to hypothetical extremes. if a talent is legitimately confirmed to have said/done something in a past life that could make someone feel deeply uncomfortable supporting them, regardless of whatever character arc they may have gone through behind the scenes, I think that should be brought up (preferably as a calm "FYI" but sadly, we all know the internet can't be trusted to do that). and I mean like... generally agreed upon very bad stuff that would make people uncomfortable. as long as that past life was very public, I can't in good faith call it "doxxing." people deserve the opportunity for second chances, but that doesn't mean having a legitimately harmful (and already public) past effectively _deleted_ from their record.
again, only talking about hypothetical EXTREMES here. I legitimately don't have any idea if anything like this has ever happened in the community, so there is no "hint hint nudge nudge" here.
I basically follow the masses. If it seems that talking about that or this Vtubers past identity is okay in the wider community, I do it. If it's not okay, I avoid it. If I don't have a precedent for it, I don't say anything.
I really appreciate you covering DDK in particular, i loved her before I knew. I spent about 2 years wondering if she'd become more active again, because I was avoiding the vtuber hole as hard as i could. I knew I'd get sucked in and spend a lot of money, as an anime fan.
I felt so dumb and like a ghost on the side of her fandom once i realized, and ran to try and consume everything i missed out on.
I WAS right about how much money I'd spend, and how far I'd get into it. But if i could turn back time I'd have been there from the start with DDK on that journey.
Some people tend to make some of us feel like we can't like pl of our oshis, it gets suffocating sometimes. If we like a past life and a current life, and we are not doxxing why can't they just leave us alone?
Its to the point where i worry about retweeting pl things, even tho i try to actively treat them as different people in the open.
I have some friends i can talk privately with now, and have joined a server for DDK so that's helping that suffocating feeling.
I also appreciate how in-depth you go in general, most of these lists I've seen about code of conduct for vtuber fandoms and chat are more like "never talk PL!! Ever!!!" and also seem to be for vtubers with different chat vibes than Shinri's chat, where i am most active in chat. Its like major whiplash, tbh. 😭