Compare Equal Size Brushless Motors with Very Different Kv's
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2024
- Here we compare brushless motors that have different Kv values and are the same overall size and power output.
Firstly, we take a look at what limits a brushless motors power output. The limitation of power outputs is directly related to waste heat. Waste heat is generated as a byproduct of creating mechanical power from a brushless motor. Nothing in life is 100% efficient, our brushless motors are typically between 80-90% efficient.
Using a 1750w brushless motor, we can expect 10% or 175 watts of power will be produced in the form of heat. This heat must be dissipated by the motor in order to survive. Physical size of the motor determines how much waste heat the motor can get rid of. Larger motors being able to dissipate more waste heat.
Next we look at how current is responsible for creating waste heat. We are then able to calculate the amount of waste heat we expect in ideal conditions. Even though one motor operates at a much higher current, the motor operating at lower current produces a significant amount of losses through the windings of the motor.
The high voltage of the motor is offset by the low amount of current the motor is able to handle. On the other hand the other motor operates at a very high current but that is offset by the amount of voltage that the motor can handle. At the end of the day, both motors have excellent power potential. It is up to you to select the motor that can deliver this power you need at the correct voltage and RPM.
In general it is difficult for manufactures to place power outputs on brushless motors as the amount of power output can easily change depending on conditions.
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I'm addicted to the wealth of usable information in all of your videos. I love the working science that is involved in rc. Keep up the great work !
Hey Mike! Thanks for the comment, appreciate it!
I have been learning about RC cars for more than two years, and this man's knowledge always teaches me something new
Appreciate your comment Madhavan Muru! Thank you!
You have a very in depth knowledge of the subject. Thank you for sharing your expertise.
Hey MadScientist, thank you for taking the time to comment!
read quite a few of your posts on RC info. Great stuff!!
Glad i found the link for the channel, some great info .
Thank You LT-Speed RC for the comment. Glad too that you found the site and channel.
I like your videos! Very informative! Cheers from Australia!
Thank You for your comment Edmond! Australia is a beautiful country!
Brother, thank you. I'm not sure how you managed to sift through the chaos I presented you with so methodically, but that was perfect and you just tied up so many loose ends for me. I should be wrapping up a pretty rad build that will be the quintessential compliment to your aforementioned future ICE/Brushless comparison video (I'm trying to mate a pretty high output brushless motor to a pretty over-built moped 2 stroke in a beautiful root beer colored 1974 tomos frame...) Any how, thanks again... You're a killer instructor here at 'TH-cam University'
Thank you Samm, appreciate the comment.
great info ! nice to understand the math behind the ratings, never thought about the losses.
Thanks for the comment little Harold
Your videos have helped me a lot with sizing motors for my 3lbs combat robot, I originally had a 2836 3200kv and it kept catching on fire after being run very hard. I've since have gotten to resize to better sizes with better startup torque at lower kv ratings and all my issues have gone away along with the originally sized motor.
Hey Ray, I'm glad the videos have helped. That's a great story. I have never built a combat robot and it sounds like so much fun!
very informative video! thanks!
Thank you for your comment Jaultaub!
nice video man keep it up!!!
Thank you for your comment Muhammed!
Excellent video!
Thank you very much!
Good info… but what I really wanted to know is, under what circumstances would you want to use each one? Surely they make them with these differences for a reason… and it’s not economic because they cost the exact same from the manufacturer in most cases. So, when use a low Kv motor, and when use a high Kv motor? Thought this video might explain that. (And yes, understand the premise of wanting to use variance in voltage, but is it really that simple? If voltage remains constant, max Kv? Or are there reasons to go lower in Kv at the same voltage?)
Sir, you explained well regarding these two motor's electrical characteristics, it will be very useful if you also explain the mechanical load to speed bearing advantages of these motors at certain conditions. Thank you for explaining. 🙂
Hi, thanks for this (and your other) videos! Trying to explain such things in an understandable way is great and I am grateful for your time and thoroughness.
It would be great, if you extend this comparison to the whole setup, not just the motor. I think, the losses in ESC and wires are also not negligible, as ESC also needs cooling. Switching and guidinbg high currents (158 compared to 40) for sure make a difference somewhere else? What do you think will change in your efficiency calculation, if you look at the whole system, including ESC, connectors and cables?
Really well explained, easy to understand.
Thank You for your comment!
Good info but what about (delta vs y) wind motors. Even with the same amount of winds delta has more rpms than y winds I think. Different wind types have a large impact on performance too.
Good information, an overview at the start and a summary at the end, could help considering the technical discussion. You didn't mention that the rpm of the two motors was comparable at the voltages tested. 2600kv x 11.1v = 28860rpm. 580kv x 44.4v = 25752rpm. I thought that was interesting. Thanks
Thanks for the comment Bliss!
I've got a question about brushless. I've got a 4×4 1/10 buggy and I want to convert my brushed system 15T motor (which i run it with nimh 7,2volts, 3Ah) to brushless combo 3000kv motor and 50A esc and still run it with the same battery. Would it be faster or slower??
hey man, I really need some advice. I have an arrma Typhon 3s I currently am running a spektrum 150a esc and my motor is 3674 2950kv that I run on 3s and 4s. with a 17t pinion and 57t spur . .it's a beast on both 3 and 4s but it does seem to warm up the esc and motor pretty quickly off road on 4s .I'm looking to get a 4068 2650kv to run on both 3 and 4s. it's rated at 122a max. I'd like to be able to run 3 and 4s without losing too much speed on 3s if possible . .does that 4068 2650kv motor sound like a good fit? when people say a certain motor will pull too many amps or an amp hog what causes that? if a motor has a higher amp rating does that mean it pulls more amps ? I was think a larger can size will provide more power and less heat but idk.. I'm trying to keep the heat down a bit..trying to find that balance between power and heat I suppose. i mainly just bash on and off road..no track racing or anything . ..any help or advice would be great man..I really appreciate it.
Just lovin it..(the info)
Hey Tim, thanks for the comment!
Need some assistance. Sonicwake 36 4082 2200kv motor and 180 amp esc with stock or undersized props and my esc gets hot and thermal cutoff happens. While the motor specs are 140 amps max. I have good water cooling. One for motor and one for esc. Will I gain much or lower my temps going to a 200amp esc? I know boats pull a big load.
Hi Chad, increasing the capacity of the ESC from 180A to 200A (same ESC manufacture) increases the power capacity of the ESC, and should lower temperature under the same load. There are also other factors to consider which may not guarantee this.
is the rpm determined by the voltage and current thru the motor or the speed at which the phases of the internal coils change? are they controlled externally or by the volatge appled? if they are a 3 phase motor then the speed is determined by the speed of the phase changes not the voltage applied. Too much voltage aand you let the smoke out unless the reverse emf keeps the current down.
Hi doccpu7, thanks for your comment.
The maximum RPM a brushless motor can spin is determined by kv and voltage.
RPM from 0 to that maximum calculated above is determined by PWM chopping in a 3 phase brushless motor. - where voltage is constant.
Trying to over advance the timing of the phase changes will not speed the motor up. It will only place the motor and ESC out of sync.
Hey man, so you saying the most efficient for motor is to follow the continuous power which is the rated voltage and rated amps? But then the continuous power is lower than 50% of peak power. Isn't it too low power input? I read on some webs and they said to be able to get most efficient for motor, should use about 75% of peak power instead... Please clarify this
Hi, which formula do you use to calculate the Iron losses please ?
Hi William. Here's a video going over it in detail.
th-cam.com/video/s8tvq1dzcLI/w-d-xo.html
Would it be possible to use two different motors for something like an electric skateboard? As an example, 130kv for torque and 220kv for speed? Would you need a slipper on the lower kv motor for when the speed goes over it’s limit? Thanks
Hi Eiren, Using 2 different motors with different Kv's would not have the effect that you are looking for. It would be complicated and not necessary. Size the motor to be able to handle the amount of power that you would need to dump during acceleration. Select the correct kv rating that allows you to hit the max speed you wish to achieve.
Take a look at the video on the channel about torque. It may help out.
RCexplained ok thanks a lot, that makes sense. Only reason I ask is I’ve got a few motors laying around and wandering if it’s possible to combine them into one build, despite their different ratings!
@@eirenwhelan3312 I don't think it's worth the effort. Sticking to one motor where ever possible is usually best. If you go with dual motors I'd use the same kv ratings for each.
@@eirenwhelan3312 you could use a one way clutch so one or the other motor is doing the run or acceleration but you get more friction and weight.
Hi, thanks for the video, we have 2 same models brushless motors, one of them has stronger magnet, are stronger magnet means it’s better motor? Will it have better torque? Thank you
If all else is equal besides having a stronger magnet in one of the two motor. Kv will decrease and the torque constant will increase.
@@RCexplained thanks for the respond, sorry I missed, stronger magnet means better torque?
The torque constant increases.
@@RCexplained so at overall stronger magnet, means better motor, right?
yes
my esc has a thing called breaking phase i have no clue what that is supposed to be set at to may setting but i do like knowing how it all works but gerr
that is for brushed motors, the setting allows you to limit throttle in the break in phase to avoid causing damage to the brushed motor in the initial few runs , as break in should be at .3 to .7 throttle for the 1st few runs
The video sound is pretty good, beyond my imagination
Greetings!
I need low speed control and torque vs. speed.
How can I accomplish this?
I'm speaking to you via message.
Hey guys, I'm new to Rc edf jets planes etc.. I come from rc cars and theirs definitely a difference. So a question I have, I own a YAK-130 is comes with 60A esc and a 3048- 2150kv motor and its says itll go 90mph can I put a 70A esc and keep the same motor or would that overwork the stock motor? any suggestions please!
Hello, in order to increase power output and speed of your EDF, you will need a new motor that can spin faster while not overheating. This will result in pulling more amps if run on the same cell count battery. Your battery will have to be up to the task and you will more than likely require a higher output ESC.
@@RCexplained thanks for the breaking it down, so I need to up kv and esc ok got it now, I won't go crazy high though maybe 600 more kv
Hop on a forum and see what guys are modding to. 600kv sounds like a lot to me. I increase speed significantly by going up 200kv.
hi sir, i just have 2 questions for brushed and brushless
1. which of the two is better for aquariums?
2. can a brushless motor run 24/7?
thank you very much.
1) both motors do not like water.(bearings) Brushless motors would be best in most applications. keep it dry though.
2) Brushless motors in your PC run for hours on end. Some PC's never turn off therefore the fans powered by brushless motors are running 365 days a year 24/7.
@@RCexplained thank you very much sir, stay safe.
Makes sense.
Broadly speaking, you should use a motor with a propeller that gives us the rpm calculated in this way. Kv * V * 70% = rpm.
So for the same power at higher Kv a smaller and vice versa propeller will be used.
Using it with a propeller that with less rpm will be a disaster and will end up burning the motor. all 100% acelerated.
what if we run those motors at the same voltage? Then which motor is going to be more efficient?
I can answer this best with a link:
th-cam.com/video/KwNY6lW3mos/w-d-xo.html
5:37 Current^2 x Resistance = "Power Output"? Or waste heat?
I enjoy watching your videos. You explain topics very well. My question is about a motor's power. If manufacturers across the board don't consistently publish their specs, then how to compare? Let's take the Tekin T8 1900kv, the Reds Racing V8 1900kv, and the HW Xerun 4268 G3 1900kv. All top-choice motors, IMO, but between those three, the Reds is the only motor with a published 1850W of power. We can't assume that all three motors are equal in power, so how does one motor seemingly have a different power curve, feel, or punch? Perhaps neither actually do, and it may all be bullshit specs. On a side note, something also worth mentioning that any brushless motor seems extremely weak, aka ZERO power, in a locked-rotor state. For example, if your car is pinned-in tight against a pipe, the motor will not rotate nor will the wheels even try to spin. Perhaps this is a fail-safe built into the ESC, but it's something that I have noticed.
Hi Charles. You can analyze motor can size size, Io and Rm values to gain a further understanding of a motors potential. Otherwise, general experimental tests help determine the better performing motor.
As for a locked rotor, my sesnored motors would brake shafts in half if the wheels were preventing the motor from turning. Perhaps you have a sensorless motor and are looking for power at 0 motor speed.
Im just getting into this awsome hobby and i got a 550 brushed motor and i want to get a faster motor so i get a bigger battery
question for you; 4092 boat motors for 6s with wildly different KV per turns (all wye)
-rocket RC 2y = 1520kv
-SSS 2y = 1400kv
-leopard 2y = 1390kv
*these are relatively equal but then*
-TP *4y* - 1350kv
-Neu 1y = 1577kv
why does the TP need 4 turns? why does the Neu need 1 turn to get into the ballpark of 30k RPM on 6s? is it magnet strength? whats going on here?
It's overall build and quality of the motor. A lower Rm value will translate to less losses at higher current.
I want to learn how to choose the correct motor when being restricted to a 2s lipo or 3s lipo in the classes I pull in
Hi Joe, luckily enough this is a video already in queue. It will talk about what is needed to get max power.
I am not a pro racer , I run Rc cars as a hobby , but I buy premium racing for my 1:10 scale car, , I have 2 fantom motors FR1 V3 series. , So what should I choose ? a 10.5T motor on 2s or a 17.5T motor 4s, most likely the rpm would be same , but which one will be efficient ? I want reach about 80 km/h maximum speed
My preference would be for the 4s setup.
@@RCexplained Thank you for the advice, I subscribed and found lot of useful videos on your channels , great stuff!!
@@gehandx Thank you for your awesome comment! I'm glad you find the videos useful!
can I use same size but slightly different kv in a same build please
one of my drone lost a motor and I can not find the exact same motor
I found a motor with same size but the kv is 3800 but my drone motors kv is 4000
thanks
I would not feel comfortable using 2 different kv motors on the drone. My recommendation is to keep all the motors the same.
@@RCexplained thanks for the reply , great help
@@bbab9051 glad to help
With more surface of a bigger motor, does that mean a large physical size motor with a low KV would run the "coolest"? What I'm gathering from your video too is that a lower KV running on a ton more volts actually demands much fewer amps than a larger kv motor running on much fewer volts. Pretty dramatic.
Yes larger motor with lower kv would run cooler, primarily because of the surface area. With a lower kv you go up in cell count.
80-90% efficiency on brushless? Wow, what's the efficiency of brushed motors then?
I googled it and they state 75%-80% efficiency, is that correct?
Brushed motor efficiency can be anywhere from 70-80% typically. Efficiency for a brushed motor drops when the speed approaches the motors maximum recommended speed. The primary cause for this is arching that occurs on the brushes and commutator.
High kv makes low torque at low voltaje? Example: a 3650 3900kv at 6V makes low torque than a 3650 2150kv at 6V??
Georgia Tech is not far from me. I need to beg their admissions folks to let me in so I can study EE so I can understand this video!!
I think that efficiency matters the most because you can have a high kv with high torque if it has high efficiency
How do I know which 380/390 brushed motor is best??? When I say best I mean fastest.
It would be the motor that can output the highest wattage. To check for this it would be worth looking at physical motor size, kv, and Rm of the motor. A larger motor with a lower Rm and the same kv is a good indication.
RCexplained I simply can’t find enough info online. I’ve been looking at the Traxxas Titan 380 18T brushed and the Tamiya Sport tuned 380 18T motors. All I know is the size and turn of each motor. I can’t find anything else about either. I’m trying to upgrade my brushes motors in a dual motor setup. It comes stock with a pair of 390 motors that I also can’t figure out the turn count of. I am just lost in need of real help.
Hey Jason, Without information or experience with these specific motors, it's going to be hard for anyone to determine which motor is best suited for your requirements. It may be best to hop on to a forum to hear from those that are experienced with your RC.
RCexplained will do. Thanks
Nice video as always but I'd say it's a bit biased since you compare the motors while you operate them at different voltages
There is another video that goes through a similar analysis using the same voltage. Better yet, I'm working on a full practical experiment using a Brushless Motor Dyno. You can see the Dyno in action on some of the more recently released videos.
@@RCexplained I ve seen all your videos and you do a great job with a lot of effort and time.my comment is from pure electrical scope
How fast would 2500kv go on a 2s Lipo ?
I could get 2s LiPo 2500kv motor to go 160km/h on an airplane quite easily.
👑
Ok so what is physically different, causing the differences in resistance and no-load current? Are we talking wraps/turns?
The length and diameter of the copper windings.
@@RCexplained Thank you. I think you mention something like that in the video, but it was a lot of info, wanted to ask! Can I ask what the relationship is? A greater mass of copper in the wires will have the greater KV, or lesser KV? Thank you for this page, I just found it.
I'm assuming less mass of copper wire is faster RPM, and more mass of copper wire is slower but has more torque.
In a motor of the same physical size, the mass of copper being used must stay the same. If you have less copper, performance will be down overall.
When the number of turns increase, the diameter of the wire must decrease. Overall the mass stay the same.
@@RCexplained Ok, ok, makes sense - thank you.
So for rc boats running 4s-6s you want a lower kv to get the higher voltage with more heat dissipation for longer life outta that brushless inrunner motor and if the kv is higher then you can only safely run lower cell count batteries safely because they don't displace heat as well as the lower kv so like a 2900kv-3800kv 3674 brushless inrunner would best be suited for 3-4 cell batteries and on the upper 4 cell side you probably would not want to push higher c rating out of those motors because they can't displace the heat as well as say a 1900kv-2700kv 3674 brushless motor. Ok so if this is true and I am reading your numbers right the lower kv motor won't need as high of a amperage esc as the higher kv but if you use a higher amperage esc with a lower kv motor that doesn't need anywhere as much amps are you hurting that higher amp esc by running a lower amp usage motor????
esc is determined by max current the motor can draw
ex : a motor can draw max 50 amps ,then u should choose esc 10-20% higher than that , tht would be 55 or 60 amp rated esc . hope this helps
and if u use esc that rated wayy more than the motor current it should be okay
dont choose esc that below a max motor current
90% efficiency?!, it means if motor gets 100w of electricity, it will make 90w of mechanical energy on shaft?
Yes if I understand you correctly
you can make it more interactive or interesting by drawing some drawing......by explaining in image
Absolutely! check out more recent videos I have done.
Can i use 80kv motor to run at speed of 3000 rpm
10s LiPo would get you somewhere around 3000 RPM.
@@RCexplained can it be use as generator to charge this 10s lipo
@@neelparab8928 This would be highly dependent on the controller that you are using. Yes it's possible.
@@RCexplained how should i convert it into dc
Motor 1:
KV (RPM/V) 2600
Power (W) 1750
Current (A) 158
Resistance (Ω) 0.0047
No load current I0 5.83
KT (Nm/A) 0.0037
Power / Current (V) 11.08
IR Drop (V) 0.74
BEMF (V) 10.33
Net Current (A) 152
Torque (Nm) 0.56
Speed (RPM) 26867
Power Output (W) 1572
Efficiency (%) 90%
In - Out Power (W) 178
I2R (W) 117
No load current loss (W) 65
Motor 2:
KV (RPM/V) 580
Power (W) 1750
Current (A) 40
Resistance (Ω) 0.0831
No load current I0 0.92
KT (Nm/A) 0.0165
Power / Current (V) 43.75
IR Drop (V) 3.32
BEMF (V) 40.43
Net Current (A) 39.08
Torque (Nm) 0.64
Speed (RPM) 23447
Power Output (W) 1580
Efficiency (%) 90%
In - Out Power (W) 170
I2R (W) 133
No load current loss (W) 40
Right?
Seems about right, but keep in mind that I0 will be significantly higher for the second motor.
I mentioned this in the "Comparing Brushless Motor Torque vs Kv" video discussion. Typically I0 is measured at 10V, at least for the motors I use, but if you need to drive it at 40V to achieve the desired RPM then you will be underestimating those losses.
@@xnoreq Yea - I guess the thing to do is measure Io at the actual operating speed. That's how Maxon specifies it for their motors:
"No load current I0 [mA] ±50%
:
This is the typical current that the unloaded motor
draws when operating at nominal voltage. It increases with rising speed owing to bearing friction and iron
losses. No load friction depends heavily on temperature. It decreases in extended operation and increases
at lower temperatures." support.maxongroup.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012268940-Meaning-of-maxon-s-specified-motor-data
@@xnoreq I imagine that the values provided by manufacturers would reflect the highest power/efficiency operating point for their motors. It's kind of surprising that may not correspond to the highest rated voltage/speed for the motors as shown below. Are the rated resistances motor terminal resistances or the winding resistances (like the VESC Tool reports)?
TURNIGY AERODRIVE SK3-6374-192KV
Max.. Voltage 44
Weight (g) 858
KV (RPM/V) 192
Power (W) 2750
Current (A) 80
Resistance (Ω) 0.016
No load current I0?(A) 4
KT (Nm/A) 0.04974
Power / Current (V) 34.38
IR Drop (V) 1.28
BEMF (V) 33.10
Net Current (A) 76
Torque (Nm) 3.78
Speed (RPM) 6354
Power Output (W) 2515
Efficiency (%) 91%
In - Out Power (W) 235
Copper loss (W) 102
No load current loss (W) 138
Sean Lock?
1750W ? That high amperage sounds like bullshit. Can you show in a video with multimeter how it draws 1750W ?
Hey Kristiyan, thanks for the comment. A Multimeter would ignite in to a ball of fire if tested as suggested. Check out the video in this link where a similar setup is pumping out a lot more than 1750w of power. I go in to detail and break down 4 data logs.
th-cam.com/video/RA0H4zrBfXU/w-d-xo.html
@@RCexplained I am interested in seeing this in a video, not about data that I don't know where it comes from and I doubt it. Driving consistently 320 Amps through a copper wire, means that this wire is now almost comparable in diameter with a 540 motor. You can use a relatively cheap (under 100$) clamp meter to measure "320A" so no worries there. So, can you relate me to a video ?
Hi Kristiyan, Everything on this channel is based on theory, data, and tested results. If what you find here still leaves you in doubt, there's more than enough resources out there to make sense of it.
I'm not sure how you expect someone to capture a live read out for you while the car is loaded accelerating to over 200km/h.
I think instead of consistently you meant constant or continuously? There's no secrets, the duration of time was also in the video. Peak power comes from getting to top speed, not maintaining it. How many watts of power do you think it takes getting a 5Kg RC Car to over 200km/h in only a few seconds?
@@RCexplained Yes, I meant continuously. If this 320A is a peak of microseconds or something like that, maybe sure. But for 5 seconds you cannot drive 320A through any 540 motor. The amperage seems way too high for the width of the wires in the coils. I cannot find any useful resource on this. Only videos I find where they use meter on the power supply show 15-20W draw while accelerating a motor to max RPM with no load. It does not have to be in a car, you can introduce artificially load on the motor (literally even just by grabbing the shaft with cloth and using friction). Driving continuously 320A requires wires of size around 1cm by 1cm square - This is an insane wire size...
Hi Kristiyan,
Take a look at this datasheet. Find the 1521 motor with a 1D wind. I have driven this motor personally at a constant 150A and it would easily sustain a 5 second burst over 300A. Look at the 0.5D wind as well! neumotors.com/neumotors-1500-series-bldc-motor-500-5000-watts-2/#1521
Here, this motor is smaller (smaller than 540 size) than the one mentioned in this video and provides you with exactly what you are looking for. Not my video but like I said, there's more than enough data out there. He does 2 tests, second one is the manufactures recommended voltage.
th-cam.com/video/8qQSzhxKZjQ/w-d-xo.html
Your 320A requiring a 1cmx1cm wire gauge is coming from a data sheet that is not for the correct application. You can't use chassis wiring or Power transmission charts!
It seems to me that you could explain this using 80% fewer words..
Hey txkflier. Thanks for the comment. Check out my other videos where I use fewer words.
Lol I wasted 14 minutes of my life. You said something which you could say in few seconds. You didn't say anything important.
Hey harynian, thank you for your comment and watching 14 minutes of this video. The last 20 videos posted have been kept shorter. Check those out.
@@RCexplained Hey, thank you for your reply. I have watched your video, because I'm looking for some answers. Maybe you can help me. For example: I got (but I don't have, I could check myself) SkyRC Toro X8 pro, 2150kv, 2400W, max 114A, max 21V and it gives 45150 max rpm. Torque is 0,508 Nm. What will happen if I use battery with 8,4V? After my calculations I get power 383W, 45,6A, 18060 rpm and 0,203 Nm. Am I right?