The Real Reason Tesla Developed The 4680 Battery..
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 พ.ย. 2021
- The Real Reason Tesla Developed The 4680 Battery.. we're covering all of the latest news, updates, and rumors on the Telsa 4680 battery, and explain how the production of the 4680 battery is a game changer for Tesla vehicles.
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#Tesla #TheTeslaSpace #4680 - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
A major improvement the 4680 brings that seems overlooked and ignored way too often is the change from using graphite to silicon for the anode. This is huge, it drastically reduced material cost, improve energy density and longevity of the cell itself
Question from a newbie. Could this change is materials also be applied to solar cells? As in solar panels. Being that the new battery is able to hold a longer charge, better construction, etc. But could those be used in energy capture as long as storage? Thanks.
@@charleskavoukjian3441 no. A batteries chemistry is designed to store energy. Converting light energy into useable electricity is a completely different process. Solar panels and batteries can be used together of course
An energy density increase of just 5% is not so much of a game changer…
Graphite is cheap in fact its cheaper then silicon, so the real cost is cobalt.
Um, no. One of the big delays was getting a few more percent of silicon added to anode. And that small amount accounts for a chunk of that small increase in current flow. And its hard to include silicone structurally. But the percent is still small
First time in years I've noticed the electron flow in the cells being clearly and completely explained. Thank you!
There is no electron flow. The electrical power is not carried by electrons traveling anywhere.
electrons don't move much, just not how it actually works at all.
let me point something out that isn't the actual explanation but might make you question your understanding of what is going on. particles (electrons) move faster at higher temperatures, can you transfer more power through a hot cable or a cold one. keep in mind that superconductors have to be held at cryogenic temperatures (so far). so the electrons in a superconductor are moving slower than room temperature conductors.
@@amimartian damn right there and wrong in the clip. Electrons do move but not much at all and is not a carrier of the e-power!
@@amimartian damn wrong there, even though the video is also wrong/misleading. If the electrons don’t move there would by definition not be any current flowing through the battery.
Tesla bought Maxwell technologies and adopted their Patented Dry Electrode * production technology. In addition to the integrated continuous anode/cathode tabs, the improved design allows for non-stop battery production faster than bullets from a machine gun. The 5x reduction of internal resistance reduces thermal heating, allows for increased acceleration, and reduced charge time with increased safety. While others fumble around with solving production problems with solid state battery technology, Tesla will ramp vehicle production to 5 million a year or more.
* correction (a conducting medium)
yield rate and quick recycle from redwood
Ah, no. Most of the internal resistance is due to the graphite anode. This is not overcome with tabless design.
The biggest time component in the battery production is the drying of the electolyte. Tabless wont change overall cell production time very much.
@@nordic5490 the guy literally just said that they are using a dry electrolyte bypassing the drying faze of the old methods.....
@@nordic5490 you say "Most of the internal resistance is due to the graphite anode" - well they got rid of 4/5 of the resistance using tabless design - so the 1/5 left must be mostly the anode???
@@nordic5490 Interesting discussion. Didn't Drew say that stopping the production line to weld in the tabs was a signficant bottleneck?
Just wanted to say ... AGAIN ... lol, thanks for being such a great information source. You really try, put in the effort and don't simple regurgitate pre-released data mindlessly. Or give long drawn out speals of what most everyone already knows. It is a pleasure to watch your posts and i am honored to 👍, share etc. Keep up the great work, honesty, integrity.... it will serve you well.
Really ? The LFP patents expire next year, and Tesla will move towards making their own LFP cells for many reasons, eg low fire risk, long life, cheap to make, etc, and this was never mentioned. All evs in China are LFP and the Model3 we revice here in Oz has LFP cells made by CATL (this is the one to buy - 2000 cycles vs 1000, and low fire risk), but, none of this was mentioned.
The current Solidstate batteries used by Mercedes trucks and busses need to be kept at a constant 80°C due to thermal expansion damaging them - ok for commercial vehicles, but impracticable for domestic vehicles. Not mentioned either.
Congrats u couch quarterbacked a couple points out of millions and confratulate yourself meanwhile the whole point well whooooosh idiot
I think you forgot that it will charge faster than the 2170 battery because of the reduced resistance of the tabless design. This will allow Tesla to sustain a higher charging rate for a longer time.
Most of the internal resistance is due to the graphite anode. This is not overcome with tabless design.
The spot welded tabs are a weak point which can fracture and short circuit with ing the pack.
@@nordic5490 maybe, but the resistance is still 1/5 of a more conventional battery
Thanks, but you mised the most interesting, the most important part: How exactly they connect/weld these 8:16 "Thausands of tiny cuts"?
This is not known yet but I would assume that if you can get energy out faster with the 4680 as mentioned in the video that you can put the energy in faster too.?.? Waiting to see someone test a car with 4680's! When they start making one to test in another month. Not long to see a test.
Glad to see someone in the Tesla fan community taking the time to actually understand the concepts they've been opining about for a year.
"though those companies only build like one car a day" lol, got 'em
Lmfao
Still more than tesla's roadster, semi and crybertruck combined lol
Car companies have been building more than 365 hybrids and full electric vehicals a year long before Teslas existence. Even if a new announced line isn't produced yet doesn't give this line credibility.
Like my mechanic boy
It isn't the distance an electron has to travel, but the electrical resistance incurred by the length of the conductor. Electrons moving through a conductor is called "drift" and it would take a single electron, in a DC current of 10-amps, about 130 hours to travel one meter through a wire.
what thats crazy
Distance and resistance are inextricably linked
Thank you for the excellent correction!
It’s charge that flows, not electrons. Think of a wave in the water, the wave travels but the water pretty much stays in the same place.
@@rogerstorz2091 you are right 👍
Excellent explanation!
I would’ve loved to hear a little comparison on the LFP technology as well
I took a look at the other videos you have to offer and I was impressed enough to go ahead and subscribe.
Also, I would like to say you did an incredible job of explaining a very complex subject in this video.
Well done. Cheers
a non-technie here. Good presentation. Good pace of speaking. Informative. Thank you.
You have done well to highlight the major benefits of the 4680. When I saw the design on 1'st battery day, my jaw dropped. Oh heavens - why did no-one think of this method 100 years ago? But simple physics tells us that the 4680 electrode design ensures an enormous advantage in charging and discharging heating losses due to its intrinsically lower ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance). SO COOL. The design has little effect until you stress a cell towards its maximum current flow. Then it ROCKS.
A couple of advantages of the 4680 that were not mentioned. First all that copper tabs also act as a great heat transport connecting the copper sheets and giving them a dual function. Also since the electrons need to travel a shorter distance the battery has a lower resistence leading to a slight increase in efficiency and more importantly less heat. So this battery will tolerate being driven hard for longer periods of time and more importantly it will handle hard charging better.
exactly. and longer cycle life because of the more even distribution of charge. =) Where where you at that BBQ in 2001? lol (I'm the unkown first inventor. And named the company Tesla with Elon)
@@NuniqueNewNork Busy being 8 lol. Tesla was founded in 2003 by two guys btw. Elon joined later by giving them all the funding they needed and took over.
Excellent video very well made. Also for your information Mercedes is already mass producing and using solid state batteries in their EV coach buses in EU with great success so far
I was looking at building a custom battery for my car. I quickly found out the square batteries, although more expensive, put out more power. It was kinda cool seeing you confirm my findings lol
Thank you for this very concise and clear overview! I learned a lot. 👍
Thank you! First time I understand what "tabless" means. (The guy with toilet paper helped a lot, GG) In fact, it's not so much as 'tabless' as 'tab all around the cell'
Well done but I don’t see credit in description for Dave Jones (EEVBlog) shown multiple times in the video.
His voice is so cringe.
Thank You for All that you are doing for World Peace..
Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste ..🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ 🌷 ☮️ ❤️
Best explanation making complex seem simple. Great job
Correction: they are not 1865 batteries. They are 18650 batteries. You can’t leave off the “0” because that tells you the shape of the battery. The “0” means that the battery is round and not some other shape. It’s actually very important to know the shape of the battery.
I'm glad it's not just me thinking that.
Still room to learn more about battery tech. Being from Canada, I've been hesitant about how they perform in cold weather. The whole issue of battery thermals is cool (pun intended). Batteries need to be preheated before being charged if they're too cold and cooled if they're too hot. We'd all benefit from learning Tesla's 'lasagna' battery cell tech to accomplish this. You're the best guy to make it happen. New buyers (and some frustrated owners) would benefit greatly, helping to get even more EVs on the road.
There is a youtube video, where a Model 3 in Canada is left outside in -30°C overnight, and, the car used 5% of its battery charge overnight keeping the battery warm. Thus, Teslas have no trouble operating in Norway where they are the #1selling car.
@@nordic5490 most outdoor parking spots in Northern Canada have electrical outlets for block heaters - could be repurposed I suppose.
Fantastic breakdown of the battery.
I will need to listen to this again. Thank you 🙏
This is the best explanation of how the new 4680 works, thank you for the humble clarification!
It's a great video but it's so off-putting to hear the final number cut off.
For example, calling an 18650 as an 1865... I've literally never heard someone referring to batteries in this way.
Whats the last 0 stand for anyway?
@@The_Jomonge It's just there as a spaceholder. I've never understood why they bother with it.
@@bricefleckenstein9666 nope. 0 in a 18650 means it is a cylindrical cell.
@@The_Jomonge 0 in a 18650 means it is a cylindrical cell.
@@deadmen2249 I guess that counts as my "learn something new every day" entry for today.
8-)
Very good explanation. Much better thermal management is another property of the tabless 4680 design: faster in and outflow of current with minimal resistive heating = more power output and faster charging.
You just made my day: "A ton of complex science shit" is one I'll definately quote you on.
Thanks for the in depth explanation!
One of the most useful videos on this whole area of battery tech that I've seen. Tick plus..
Great explanation on Tesla batteries! One problem with integrating the batteries into the Tesla frame though is when the car is in an accident, it becomes sooooo expensive to fix that insurance companies are just totally out the cars. As EVs continue to replace gas vehicles this creates a major problem as eventually insurance rates rise so high they become uninsurable and thus unaffordable. Battery packs need to be replaceable!
If you bend the frame yes it will be totaled out just like any gas powered vehicle would be. About the batteries being replaceable... They are made to last 300k to 500k miles, they will be classic cars by the time you need to replace them. Just saying they are just as disposable as any other vehicle these days.
@@fivepointeightnate Battery packs have failures(unrelated to and accident). What happens in this scenario? Replace the car?
Good video overall, but I think your explanation near the end, saying that a leaking electrolyte is what is causing battery fires, is wrong. As far as I know, the danger is that an internal conducting "bridge", grows between the anode and the cathode (much like stalactites and stalagmites can grow together in underground caves). Once such a connection/bridge is formed the battery short circuits and all the energy is released in a hot, violent manner. And that is what is causing a batteri fire.
Dendrites
Excellent. Thanks for putting out!
Thank you, excellent presentation.
Thanks for this! I watched a lot of vids on batteries and this was definitely one of the most insightful
I agree. Excellent explaination of it all.
While a small part of this video I think you were the first person to clearly explain that making a 4680 will take the same or less time and effort then making the current smaller cells.
Game-changing.
Most of the time (and energy) used in cell manufacture is the drying of the elctrolyte, not attaching tabs.
Nicely and logically presented. I have one small semantic quibble. Toward the end, you incorrectly contrasted lithium-Ion to solid state. Solid-state refers the spacer design. Lithium-ion refers to the chemistry. So future solid-state batteries might still be lithium-ion.
This is year worth of knowledge. Thank you for the beautiful video.
Great video! I work in Kato Road and am amazed by the continued interest in these batteries even long after Battery Day. 🔋😁
@Joseph Reyes I don't know if you are allowed to comment on this, but can you confirm the problem with damage to the rollers has been solved?
Jeff sees himself being congratulated where Elon sees himself working 24/7.
Johnson Controls/ Optima Red Top spiral wound AGM lead acid battery follows a similar approach to reducing the internal resistance and increasing the Ampacity. Each internal spiral cell would have a top bus bar with several tabs (located about equal distance between each tab) welded/ soldered to the grid and a bottom bus bar with several tabs (located about equal distance between each tab) welded/ soldered to the plate.
About 15 years ago I tested a large number of these automotive batteries (new in the box) and found about 1/3 of these failed open using a live-load carbon pile tester to verify they would pass the CCA rating. Midtronics EXP800 battery tester would generally show an 8% lower CCA rating for the batteries that would later fail the live load test. (Good for incipient failure detection.) Of the batteries that failed, more than 90% developed a hot spot at the same cell location. A couple of the failed batteries were cut open and the weld/ solder joints on the tabs to the bus bar were what failed. Live load tests would progress to about 10 or 12 seconds of the 15 second long test and fail like a house of cards. One tab joint would fail, so the remaining joints would have to share a heavier load, and then a second one would quickly fail and the remaining fail, all within a couple of seconds. The other problem these batteries had was that the grid and plate would be crimped and almost touching at the bottom of one of the six cells, causing excessive current leakage and also overheating when rapidly charging. Optima never acknowledged these problems. (Many D31 Yellow Top deep cycle Optima batteries I tested also failed catastrophically, but these were not cut open to verify if they failed at the same solder points.)
Excellent explanation, thank you! I’m hoping Tesla will eventually (if possible) be able to use these 4680 batteries in the plaid.Assuming they would need to change to 1 cast piecing as well. Do you have any information if a model Y can be ordered with the 4680 batteries? I’m seeing a ton a videos that keep repeating the same thing about the 4680batteries, but no true facts that you can actually order the model Y with the new batteries. People are assuming since the LR model Y is pushed back to June / July 2022 it will have the new batteries. If that’s the case, I don’t see how the price would come down or be adjusted if you placed your order now. 🤷🏽
They worked out as many of the manufacturing issues as possible. I love it. Shutdown separators are super cool too. No welds on the cap also reduce probability of electrolyte leak
Electrolyte leak is a built in safety of the lithium design. Rigid cells that cannot puff out have leak points if pressure builds built in around anode connection
Extremely good explanation , keep it up👍💪💪💪🦇
Thank you. Incredibly informative!
Beautifully informative... Thank you ❤️
I have to safely assume Tesla has a team working behind the scenes working on solid state batteries and keeping it quiet until a breakthrough is made, not saying it will happen, but they have to have weighed their options and realized it is at least worth pursuing, just in case. Just me?
It’s just you.
@@tommac5411 lol
I can only assume it's a extremely small team with a smaller budget than the main battery team... might even be a one man job with him sometimes getting pulled to the 4680 if they need manpower
@@PrograError that could very well be the case, they have all the money needed to pursue it but the talent needed is the hard part to come by.
Quantumscape, start buying stock, theyve overcome the problems and now produce solid state lithium batteries, more power, faster charging and much safer
Amazing 👏
Wow
Why ? Teslas move to LFP wasnt mentioned at all.
@@nordic5490 watch again
Amazing Thank you for explaining. Appreciate it.
Wouldn't the copper shingle design also work on the smaller battery's ? What would be the benefits ? Cheers
5:17 that EEV video was a dumpsterfire though. "I haven't actually watched the battery day presentation so let me explain the 4680 battery". That guy should know better, but he confidently shoots out unresearched info like a shotgun, some being correct but a lot missing the mark entirely.
Yes. He and Thunderfoot were circle jerking each other about 4680 not being a game changer but not mentioning the significant cost reduction.
@@xiaoka Ya, cost reduction is the ENTIRE point of the 4680, but do you think the consumer will ever see the benefit? Umm, NO... So, honestly, what's the point? The 4680 is already a dead product when the last of the LFP patents expire and LFP is the obvious choice going forward.
Great stuff brah. Love your litte graphics that makes the video more engaging to watch like the little X and squares along with the black dots on the white transparent wallpaper.
Well done - excellent research - very good explanation - thanks a lot.. ✌🏻😎
Excellent. How do you get your hands on the information?
Best video to date. Thank you sir.
Terrific video! I have always wondered how this tabless thing worked. It was an easy explanation! Thanks!
Question: Does this new pack structure mean they can't replace these batreries since that are part of the structure?
If you lose a battery, you lose only that one battery. It won’t affect the others. Since there’re so many, it won’t be noticeable. Safety in numbers.
@@jbell6642 No I wasn't talking about. I know there is software to control the individual batteries.
I was trying to get an answer regarding the new 4680 batteries being mounted in the new planned structural pack that will be used when they move to stamping ( injection molding) out the front and back frame. And the structural pack will go in the center of the body and be used as part of the frame that connects the front and back.
So with its new design as a structural pack if the whole pack needs to be replaced is it even possible to gain access to the batteries.
With the older system they can replace an individual pack inside. I saw videos of Rick that was doing that.
Again the question is if they make this new structural pack do they loose the ability to access the individual battery packs.
Thanks!
@@rlanza1054 i guess since i have to answer noone nows... At least here.
But original Tesla batteriepacks have been so expensive that pretty much nobody exchanges them.
In term of repairability Tesla tries to follow others, like Apple
@@rlanza1054 Yes, I believe they loose access and repairs won't happen. (this isn't a practical option now) Its likely the (center) structural battery pack could be unbolted, but replacement wont be practical.
The more important point is: They are designed with enough redundancy, reliability, and to last 1,600,000 kms in a car the first half of their life. Then they can be used in energy storage for the second half of their life. (then be recycled).
Tesla has the only business model that will benefit financially, the longer the car last. (Which is opposite of their competition who benefit from service and repairs)
Awesome tech and thank you for such detailed presentation.
great informative professional production thanks! +sub
the cost of production is what makes a 4680 so promising. all the other stuff is great, but the game changing part is gonna be the cost of production, because the maxwell technologies purchase has allowed them to reduce the factory footprint dramatically, since there is no need for all the drying setup with the dry electrode technology they have developed, which also greatly reduces the time it takes. the "tabless" design and some of the other stuff is cool and all, but the part that makes it a game changer and the reason why it will be very difficult to surpass in the future, is because of the mass production advantages it currently has over existing tech, or in the case of future tech, it already has established mass production at a great cost.
Correct, Most of the time (and energy) used in cell manufacture is the drying of the electrolyte, not attaching tabs.
you completely missed the MOST important factor of 4680 cells. dry application of lithium.
2170 & 1865 cells use a process where lithium is dissolved in a solvent- then sprayed on the strip. after that- they pass through ovens where they are slowly dried. this is the largest bottle neck of making lithium batteries. very few will remember this: but tesla acquired maxwell technologies FOR THIS REASON. to say that dry application speeds up the construction... would be A HUGE understatement. but? that's not the most impressive point of the 4680. not even close.
remember dendrites? those pesky little crystals that grow from positive to negative through the lithium... and begin to limit the cell's ability to charge? dendrites begin growing shortly after the cell is put into service: and do not stop, even if the cell isn't used. this sets a finite 'shelf life' for lithium batteries.
what maxwell discovered shortly after discovering HOW to do dry application- was that the current wet application method is what 'kick starts' the dendrite growth- in fact- it is almost entirely the REASON for it. removing that method? removes dendrites. thus the term- "million mile battery". THEY WEREN'T KIDDING. the acquisition of maxwell happened- and then that fun bit of fact... was never spoken of again. not even at the 4680 reveal. my guess is, even though lab testing has projected this result- tesla wants to just wait until they have real cells in real cars with more than 12 or 14 years of age & charging before tipping their hat. but make no mistake- IT WILL HAPPEN. it's the REASON tesla acquired maxwell. I'll guarantee you.. .that in a tesla lab- there are 4680 cells that are being rigorously cycled. and somewhere around the 10 or 12 year mark- during a new reveal or investor day- elon will announce THAT little gem of information. when that happens? you're going to see tesla stock 10x. a battery pack that doesn't degrade over time.... costs 50% less to make... and takes up 90% less factory floor space while output increases by 10x ... just let that sink in a minute...
fun side note: during an interview about the 4680 cells- they asked elon "how does the dry application work"... elon: "we're not going to reveal exactly how that secret sauce is made" (giggle).
Hi giggle. Yes, you are correct in that fact that most of the time (and energy) used in cell manufacture is the drying of the electrolyte, not attaching tabs.
But... consider, once the LFP patents expire next year, Tesla will move to making their own LFP cells for several reasons: low fire risk, low cost, long life (LFP is >2000cycles vs NCA of 1000 cycles). LFP is also heat resistant meaning faster charging is possible.
The Model3 delivered here in Oz used LFP cells nade by CATL, and this is the version to buy. All evs made in China use LFP cells. Tesla signed a big deal with BYD to supply Tesla with LFP cells.
Yes, it is probably Tesla will make LFP cells next year in the 4680 form factor.
Musk even tweeted 2 months ago that he thought LFP was 'the future'.
Teslas biggest vulneralbility is runaway battery fires, expecially in older existing NCA cells, and potential fires in power walls - imagine if a house burns and people are killed.
Teslas most effective way to mitigate this risk is to move to LFP cells as soon as possible, and to initiate a plan to retofit or buy back older NCA cars - Telsa can afford it.
What is the big problem ? The current Lithium NCA batteries most Tesla have installed, are prone to thrrmal runaway. If the pack is punctured, and causes a short, the ensuring fire cannot be out - this fire then produces its own oxygen for combustion, and will continue underwater.
LFP doesnt have this issue, and is only 10% less power dense.
@@nordic5490 4680 tabless design with LFP is the winning combo.
@@nordic5490 Long-range Model 3/Y don't use LFP in china, though
@@DLWELD NO... Prismatic form factors are far easier to cool and can be packed far more densely. Cylindrical cells in a rectangular box are idiotic...
👏That's a great explanation!👏
Thank you for this simple and informative video.
Solid State batteries and Fusion are the two technologies that might be 8 years off for the next 80 years.
Nah man, 30 years is the joke, not 8
@@specialopsdave I don’t understand your point.
@@colingenge9999 "Fusion is perpetually 30 years away", it's been a joke for the past 60 years
@@specialopsdave OK, I’ll buy it’s 30 years off. I suppose it depends on the story created by those who like to believe it’s true. Political decision makers don’t want to be left out of the party so are willing to continue funding it. Better to spend out money improving storage, PV and such. Then slowly eliminate all Fossil Fuel subsidies that is the anchor around the renewables neck. Metaphorically of course.
This aged poorly 😅🎉🎉🎉🎉 yay for all of us tho!
one question about the integration of the battery pack into the structural body of the car. What happens in the future when the battery needs to be serviced? This seems to be limiting since a mechanic can not simply drop the battery pack and work on this. Is the plan to make these cards "disposable" in the future or cost prohibitive to replace after a decade of batter life has gotten to the point where the car's range is down to 150 miles?
I am not saying that this will happen, "it just seems odd to put one of the parts which may be serviceable into a non accessible portion of the structure of the vehicle" - as one of my Tesla hating co-workers says.
Good question. I am speculating that the answer, is that due to Tesla's 18 years experience they know that the probability of the pack needing servicing is so close to nil that they have decided against making it possible to service to the benefit of it becoming structural and saving 400 lbs of weight. That said, I have heard from Germany, that it is possible to drop the structural pack out of the model3 and replace it, in its entirety.
So, JLR glued it’s wiring harness into the Range Rover making it impossible to remove, repair or replace. It’s a one piece harness. If it gets damaged by an accident or a ham fisted accessory installer or has a manufacturing fault (it’s a JLR, how often would that happen) the car is scrap
@@bru512 hope you are right!
@@bru512 all batteries have service lives. Planning for obsolescence and irreparability is saying "fuck the environment"
Excellent explanation Bud. Thanks for sharing!
Imagine a flashlight with 3 of those batteries, 1 week of light 🤣
One huge advantage of the 4680 battery that wasn’t mentioned is the speed at which they can be manufactured. They can be made so fast because of the tabless design and the specialized equipment that pumps them out that the cost to produce them goes way down. So they have a cheaper battery and they don’t need as many as many due to the increased power capacity. Win win. Another advantage is that the cooling of the battery will take place at the ends instead of the sides of the cells. They no longer have to locate cooling lines between the cells so the pack can be smaller and cool more efficiently. It’s not just the form factor that makes a difference. It’s the whole systems approach which reduces costs.
Ahh. No. Most of the time (and energy) used in cell manufacture is the drying of the electrolyte, not attaching tabs.
Also, once the LFP patents expire next year, Tesla will move to making their own LFP cells for several reasons: low fire risk, low cost, long life (LFP is >2000cycles vs NCA of 1000 cycles). LFP is also heat resistant meaning faster charging is possible.
The Model3 delivered here in Oz used LFP cells nade by CATL, and this is the version to buy. All evs made in China use LFP cells. Tesla signed a big deal with BYD to supply Tesla with LFP cells.
Yes, it is probably Tesla will make LFP cells next year in the 4680 form factor.
@@nordic5490 Yeah, but the Maxwell dry electrolyte process cuts out the drying time - so ...
Can you elaborate on the "cooling at the ends"? I like what you say, but I can't verify this anywhere. I have seen others like Alex speculate the cooling is between the cells.
Lithium ion battery wasn't intended for this kind of ridiculous exploitation 😡
It was for Small portable devices 😭
and yet here we are.
Awesome explanation, it was again great to hear you talk the way you talk :)
Thanks for the thorough discussion of the 4680 and its predecessors.
Really good video. Nothing new, but up to date and extremely well presented. (I thought I knew all this stuff - turns out I needed a tune-up. Thanks) .
One aspect of the future Solid State Battery - yes it will be a huge step, surpassing even the 4680, but it won't in anyway render any existing (at least Tesla) battery technology obsolete (like the 2170s in my Model Y). Existing Teslas are very likely already 'million mile batteries' or close-enough (at 20k miles/year a million miles would take 50 years. (In 2050, ask my grandchildren how my 2020 Model Y is doing and if it looks like it's got another 20 years in it.) All this Tesla, EV, self-driving and battery tech stuff is indeed a lot of fun. This is truly is an amazing time. And if you own a bunch of Tesla stock....
I really do appreciate your effort to clarify the 4680. Well done. As with any new technology, real world experience will reveal the actual extent of difference between the 4680 and 2170. The time to decide if the difference is worth a trade of my Model 3/2170 to a Model 3/4680 will come after some wheels to the pavement time for the 4680.
A refreshed Model 3 with front and rear castings and a structural battery pack filled with 4680’s would be awesome.
I believe you must have missed SANDY MUNRO's interview with SANGDEEP SINGH. Awesome solid state battery prototype is made and extensively tested. Financing for the already designed production plant is assured. The battery was developed in association with VW.
Ahh, no. Curent solid state batteries used in Mercedes trucks and busses must be kept a constant 80°C. Ok for commercial vehicles, but impractical for domestic cars.
Fantastic explanation, excellent video. subscribed!
So impressed with everything Elon and all his teams are doing..thank you from a dad
Yeah just few years more when you start getting lithium/cobalt contaminated drinking water
@@amanthatthinks Why do you want to shoot down EVs? Would you rather have people burning fossil fuels until the biosphere is fried? At least get your facts straight. The EV industry is rapidly moving to cobalt-free battery chemistries, and lithium is not a problem in drinking water.
The downside to this design is safety. The 4680 design eliminates the one or more central tabs on the positive end that acted as a fuse if the cell was ever shorted between terminals. Making the battery cell and the way it is welded into a pack part of the frame of the car is also a very bad idea. Sure these new batteries can deliver more power faster but that isn't what people need in a vehicle. People need reasonable acceleration, 400-500 mile range, a robust near bulletproof electronic control design that won't have any issues being in service for 20+years without needing updates, and a battery that won't go up in a blaze of glory while charging in the garage or during an accident.
What is to stop them using a wire fuse (fuse link) on each battery. It does not have to be internal and I think the older Tesla battery packs had external fuse links
You missed the point
@@barryduff9839remember more control more weight
Does having all of the tabs reduce the internal resistance of the battery thus reducing heating of cells during charge or discharge?
amazing explanation, much appreciated!!!
its funny how many times you mentioned the word "Tesla" and you mentioned "Panasonic" just one time lol
Panasonic is literally behind the invention the science the manufacturing of the 4680 Battery
Panasonic even has a restricted area inside the Gigafactory that is not accessible to non Panasonic workers . Panasonic is responsible for the battery cells production line and its a major investor in the factory itself
Tesla is responsible for the assembly of cars
its how tings work in business i need your science so i can make my product and you get a portion of the sales according to the contract between us
this is false Reference now when you talk about battery technology at least give the people a more accurate information and give the original inventor the citation they deserve
nice video by the way
They developed the 4680 with Tesla.
Gr8 video Brother!
I truly hope that Tesla begins using the 4680's in the LR variant of the Model 3 & Y ... I pray they DON'T partially full the battery compartment ... but go MAX full and deliver that full 30% immediately to the "2-wheel drive Model 3 LR" so it can provide USA drivers with ~350+mi range! If that happens, I will immediately add a Model 3 to my Model Y Garage!!!
Then... if the Model Y LR gets 30%... I will ALSO replace my 330mi Model Y LR for the improved 430+mi LR. This will finally give me the no compromise vacation travel vehicle! If I keep my batt
I can't wait ! Now I'll have real life range cars. Finally able to drive straight to my daughter without worry or side trips for "fuel"
FYI; Anode/Cathode is miss matched here as it's this type:
Electrolytic cell: Converts electrical energy into chemical energy. Here, the anode is positive and cathode is the negative electrode. The reaction at the anode is oxidation and that at the cathode is reduction.
I understand 🙀
Well that's a first!!!
Thank You very much for making this video for us.
The tabs being rolled over on the ends allows for a higher output. Don’t forget that Tesla is going to save $$$$ by having less parts to assemble.
Or, another point of failure. Ask your self why Tesla have not used this design in any of their products yet.
@@nordic5490 ??? If you have lots of tabs one or two could fail and no big deal - with only 2 tabs it's a problem
@@nordic5490 The real question is, Nor Dic, are they using it already and you just don’t know it? It is all about cost of implementation; Tesla has innovated the building of a car from the ground up…spending huge money on both R&D and equipment. I don’t think the question you ask has been thought through much. Look at the competition, what kind of R&D and innovation have they put in?
@@nordic5490 Are you sure they are not using it already in some of their cars!😂
Lol..... what's more important is to have enough raw materials to make alot of batteries, the structural battery pack will be a nightmare to recycle, the actual batteries can be easily teardown and reused for storage......
Good but missed reduced drying time gives 3production in a third of the space using continuous flow bottle style production....they bought the company. So 9x production in the same space.
They bought Maxwell technologies and adopted their Patented Dry Electrolyte technology. In addition to the integrated tab, the overall design allows for continuous production development.
Correct. Most of the time (and energy) used in cell manufacture is the drying of the electrolyte, not attaching tabs.
@@arthur321654 they also bought the German tool company which I suspect really allows them to deliver the bottle plant style throughput.
@Mike M Tesla is aquireing several companies (read >10) to reduce 3rd party dependencies to improve supply chain reliability, i.e., increase vertical integration. I would not be surprised if Tesla acquired some chip fabrication companies, too.
Lol.... they first need the raw materials tho.
Game Changer Again Great Update an Home-run on Covering the Bases Bob Vandivort
You missed 2 important point, first being the fact that the shorter electron distance travel means less heat loss, meaning more efficient, also meaning more efficient charging/discharging cycle. Second being less material for equivalent energy due to form factor, meaning cheaper to manufacturing, and also less part mean faster, thus again cheaper.
So it’s bettre AND cheaper. In the end , price is what will bring affordable EV in the hand of the population. Even if SSB become easy to manufacture, that doesn’t mean cheap… I’ve yet to see price predictions on manufacturing SSB
Not only does the 4680 have a much higher energy density. Will it being so much wider and barely increasing the length that five times amount of energy can get out from one into the other a lot quicker which keeps the battery heat way down. The heat comes from all of that energy having to go through a long skinny body so the quicker it can get out the cooler the battery stays and any cooling system in a car that runs these batteries doesn't have very much to do compared to the old style batteries. This is put it almost on the same platform of solid state batteries. And the people developing solid state batteries figuring about 5 years they will have it perfected, but by then Elon Musk will have gone another step or two and making his batteries even better than they are now which will basically negate the need for him to have solid state batteries. He never stops improving so why concentrate on two different lines if one is going to be good enough to handle the job.
the 4680 has 5.5x the volume of the 2170, thus 5.5x the amount of energy stored. The 4680 pack has almost 2X the energy of the 2170 pack.
Umm, NO...
@@awebuser5914 explain sir
@@MadawaskaObservatory Ugh... The difference will come in the saved packaging in the larger form factor, but it's still round pegs in a square box, so not very efficient. The actual power density of a 4680 might be 10% more than a 2170, but that will need to be verified by a third party. For the same WH size pack, the 4680 could be slightly smaller/lighter, but they will probably use the same volume as the 2170 and increase the range a bit.
@@awebuser5914 OK I understand what your saying. In actual volume of space used up by the batteries will be much less for the same WH as compared to the 2170. More importantly the 4160 will be lower cost per KWH to manufacture. The numbers point in that direction. And there are other innovations that make the 4160 a better solution for EV and potentially aircraft. Looks like to me the 4160 could become the dominate battery supplanting the 2170 and 18650 in a vast array of applications.
@@MadawaskaObservatory Honestly, prismatic LFP will be the way forward in the near-term (5-10 years); the safety, robustness and packaging are pretty much unbeatable except in minor edge-cases where absolute maximum power density is needed (sports cars, etc)
Great video! Keep em coming
Excellent presentation. Thanks!
"elon musk is smart enough not to pin his hopes on a technology that might come to market some day in the future"... what, like hyperloop or self-driving-ai in robotaxies? This is hilarious - the guy that is known for future thinking is being lauded for not looking to the future...
He claims way too much bullshit these days... Better not do the same with ss batteries
Making a great Li-ion wet electrolyte cell doesn't mean they aren't looking to the future. It just means they are kicking ass right now, not sitting around waiting for a breakthrough so they can maybe start making cars one day.
@@georgetreduen4502 0
It's not just bigger battery, it's tabless design, dry battery electrode, new cathode, new Anode, new cell vehicle integration. If that's not revolutionary than I don't know what that word means. You should take a look at the videos from Limiting Factor, he is excellent and goes into details.
Yes but... Tesla will likely move to making LFP cells next year when the patents expire. - and probably in the 4680 form factor
Very helpful thank you
The 4680 battery is huge!
Good job with the explanation. Thanks
Really helpful video, thank so much!
This was a very informative presentation. Thank You
Excellent video, thank you!!
Very clear and to the point. Kudos !
Excellent Briefing ,, I learned something new!!, ty
Can the tab-less design not be implemented into 18650 cells to then give those cells a 5x shorter electrical path too?
Not economically. Changing the 18650 in that way would require a redesign of the battery modules and battery pack, without the production benefits of the larger form factor. So the answer is yes, but it wouldn't be worth it.
A size and shape of battery nobody has tried to make before
D CELL: Am I a joke to you?