Leveraged ETFs - Not The Return Cheat Code You'd Expect
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Leveraged ETFs might sound like a sure-fire way of beating the market, but funny enough they actually have a negative return bias over the long-term! We explain why in today's video.
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This channel is for education purposes only and is not affiliated with any financial institution, although Richard does work as an employee for an investment manager. Richard Coffin does not provide recommendations on The Plain Bagel - those looking for investment advice should seek out a registered professional. Richard is not responsible for investment actions taken by viewers.
The 1920's taught us a simple lesson: using massive leverage is totally okay as long as you have an open window above the 20th story nearby.
Dark...
👹👹
Well leverage is very tricky, many leveraged ETFs are constrained to a large sweep of allocations. If your a personal trader using leverage you can make more pointed allocations. For example, I use roughly 2x margin for my equities portfolio, I own 83 different positions that I have evaluated myself. I find this to be much more successful with my YTD up 41%. But leverage is certainly scary, when the bottom fell out in March 2020, I lost 32% of my portfolio in 4 days. Be careful with leverage and stay away from windows.
go ahead and use it 🤪
Leveraged ETFs aren’t even massive leverage…
This is such a useful video. Most investors don't understand how the rebalancing of these products work and that they never get the returns stream they expect. These are some of the worst financial products available.
Isn't there a arbitrage opportunity when you short the 2x etf and go long the double amount of the normal etf? (Sorry for bad English)
@@danielsich3362 And this sort of thing is the main use of the product. It was created as a tool for funds and investors to use on the "short term" to arbitrage. It almost always loses if held for too long as a normal recession would wipe these things out. There is a bit of survivor bias on these funds too, because the funds that had this kind of leverage and went bankrupt in the Great Recession are gone and no one hears about them anymore. All they see is the track record of funds established since then for the most part and that is misleading.
Patrick and plain bagel colab? 👀👀
In a way the markets kind of depend on people to take a lot of risk. In some ways it seems a very viscous cycle, as there is not much incentive to create stability.
Sorry Pat, but no it isn't. The S&P 500ncan't drop more than 20% in a day without the market being completely shut down so a 3x S&P 500 fund would never reach the >33.3% drop needed to be completely wiped out like it sates in the video. Also, do a search for how a 3x S&P 500 etf performs over the last ten years. vs. a non-leveraged etf like VOO does. The leveraged etf wins hands down. When looking at long term hold of leveraged etf, volatility is your enemy, but a leveraged etf based on a low volatility index with the S&P 500 can be fine. There are also fund and etf that do 2x leverage with monthly rebalance as well.
I'll just invest all my money into a x10 leverage certificate and nothing can stop me on my way to financial independence. Except for a 10% correction.
just take on more leverage (infinite) and you will be fine
Hahaha 😊
Here is what you do. Put all your money in 401ks and IRAs. Then invest everything else on margin. If it goes down who cares? Say you owe 100k to the brokerage, here is the cheat code out: bankruptcy.
Vankruptcy cant touch 401k or IRA, so you are good to go. Once you are done and clear, withdraw new seed money from 401k and IRA and repeat.
Just make sure to stuff some tendies in their on your rise up, so you dont run out of seed money.
@@JRmarksmen I'm pretty sure, that he is from germany, so no IRA and 401k 😉
you mean 5%
I always wondered this, thanks for making this video! I was looking at 2x and 3x leveraged S&P500 ETFs last year and noticed the 2x had beat the 3x. I wondered how that happened and now I know.
Too late for me, I am x20 my positions, thinking it would make sense, but I will be more cautious next time, just waiting for the SnP500 to gain me something then I'm out
I’ve returned 178% this quarter using soxl, tqqq, upro, spxl, and their inverse counterparts. Plenty of swing traders and intraday traders using these. Also many experienced traders will buy 15-30% TQQQ for their IRA, tax haven for larger gains.
Id like to point out, that during the 2008 or 2020 crashes, you could have sold out of your long bull ETFs or simply hedged them on the weekly, daily with an inverse until market bleeding had stopped.
@@aaronpatterson935 They are great for small window swing trades.. I usually swing TNA, SOXL,TQQQ, GUSH, FNGU, UTSL, SOXL, FAS and EURL. BUT, people need to get in and get out and not let greed take over. Id highly advise people to practice with just swing trading the sectors and indices first. If they cant successfully do it with no leverage then they should have no reason to believe they can do it with leverage.
@@undauntable6456 BLOK too
@@AmikYoungDon never heard of it gonna read into it today, cheers 👌
Really bad video. You completely ignore the returns when hedging a leveraged portfolio with treasuries or gold which most leveraged enjoyers do. Enjoy making your small pp 8% returns while us leveraged chads make 20-30% annual returns for the next 2 decades.
Richard should launch his own ETF with ticker symbol PPP (Professional Party Pooper)
That's taken by a British gas driller.
one exists already, called ARKK
@@unnamedny arkk is the opposite of a party pooper? It's a party freak
He’s partially funded by big finance. They won’t be telling you the good stuff!
The evidence speaks for itself. Consider this: if you had invested in $UPRO on 1/2009 and held onto it, your investment would have multiplied 38 times over! This is not just speculation or hearsay - the numbers prove it. Additionally, it's important to note that the likelihood of a 33% drop in the S&P 500 in a single day is extremely low due to the implementation of "circuit breakers" that halt trading once the market drops between 7-13%. While you may have concerns about levered ETFs, it's important to base your decisions on reliable data and realistic scenarios, rather than relying solely on sensationalized and cherry picked narratives.
This is a really good video, but, my tendie brain is not convinced. Since the high point before the covid dip, VOO is up 26.71% and UPRO (a 3X leveraged S&P500 ETF referenced in this video) is up 41.60%. Sure, it's not 3X the return, but it's still incredible. The negative drift bias of leveraged ETFs is all well and good, but, assuming a long time horizon and assuming that the S&P500 continues to do decently (which is a massive assumption ik ik), I don't understand why the negative drift bias can't just be dismissed as completely negligible. As for the -34% drop example, don't a bunch of exchanges e.g. the NASDAQ halt trading to protect the coke-sniffing Wall Street traders from losing their money in risky financial derivatives? Wouldn't that also apply to the underlying derivatives in a leveraged ETF?
That's my thinking too. Can't see any reason this wouldn't work in the long term other than the possibility circuit breakers don't work and you are wiped out, which is highly unlikely. Have you bought it yet?
Leveraged ETFs are not for everyone.
Stick with 'plain bagel' advice and that's what you gonna get for dinner - a plain bagel (not a steak )
Your calculation doesn’t make sense. Shouldn’t daily leverage depends on days up or down? If there are more up days in the year, the leverage etf will out perform. Enlighten me
I come back to this video every time my leveraged 3x etfs skyrocket
Same
Imagine being so proud of your ignorance.
The problem I always see with the example at 5:40 is that leveraged ETFs like the TQQQ over the long term overperform their 3xa benchmark, showing that this phenomenon can also work the other way (if you have multiple 10%+ return days in a row.)
Also, I've seen examples of where if you bought a triple leveraged ETF for the S&P 500 around 100 years ago (2 years before the great depression,) even with a 1% yearly fee, it outperforms the standard S&P 500 by around it's 3x benchmark.
I always say it, if the market is ever down so bad that it's not worth it to buy stocks because it won't recover, you wont care about paper money. Market goes up over time and that's pretty much a given ignoring something like an asteroid hitting earth, why not bet on it something thats been true the last 100 years?
Okay, but would it be True for like 20-30 years?
Not many people could See the return after 40 years, not to mention gains after 100 years. Sure, you can buy it for your Kids or something but that Different case I think
@@cyjan3k823
yes, it's true
look what UPRO did the last 5 years ( +368.99% )
@@cyjan3k823
PS
when it first appear in 2009 UPRO was $2.50 today is $109.07 , you do that math
If TQQQ was around 20 years ago, you'd have lost everything.
Although mathematically it would have never gone to 0 (worst daily drawdown was something like 32%) I don't believe it would have remained open after a 96% loss.
Even if it did stay open, it would have never recovered from the dotcom bubble, it would be at like one tenth of QQQ.
In my experience (trading tqqq), leveraged etfs are good for trading purposes. My trades happen on a frequency of between 1-1.5 weeks. I have seen greater return than good old qqq. Not sure about keeping tqqq for long term though
I can tell you my returns when holding tqqq for 1 to 2 months or more is greater than just holding the qqq for the same time frame.
And my friend who held tqqq for a decade can tell you his returns was way greater than mine or yours for any amount of time we are comparing.
Can anyone show REAL, returns because of TQQQ,QLD,TECL....UPRO etc looking pretty damn good even thru 2008? soooo can we stop with what-ifs and show real numbers? Also, most would not take out a loan they would use margin which is some of the lowest interest out there plus you can manage the position.
Invest in a 2X Leveraged ETF, but divide your capital into small chunks and invest weekly/monthly. Dont go all in at once. Time in the market is always better than timing the market.
Then go all in at once if time in the market beat timing it
Certainly appreciate the content. Both the math and logic make sense.... HOWEVER... If you were to invest $100K into each of the SP500, SSO, and UPRO on 7/1/2009, you'd have $438,345 vs $2,017,414 vs $4,852,103 respectively. (starting date is when UPRO came into existence)
ultimate cherry pick time frame 2009 -2019 interest rates at 1% zero volatility. Investing 3x leveraged ETF in 1998. Zero money in 5 years.
They would be destroyed during a bear market.
Unless it is an inverse leverage ETF
sike! there is a derivative for that too, M. Burry just loaded up on bearish inverse ETFs for U.S. bond market. Basically if you can think about a strategy, as obscure as it is, wallstreet b(w)ankers got 10 instruments for it already
if you know that its a bear market then why not put money in the inverse ETF?
@@darius2640 I believe burry loaded up on leaps for tbt.
It is worth noting that the leverage ETF x3 can also return above x3 if there are many positive days in a row, compounding up your returns. But volatility decay is most likely.
In a certain sense, volatility drag is always negative. Let me explain. Assume that the value of the index moved continuously and that a leveraged ETF tied to that index were rebalanced at every infinitesimal moment meaning its price's logarithmic derivative were always 3 times that of the logarithmic derivative of the index's value. Such an ideal leveraged ETF would experience zero volatility drag. Its value growth would be raised to the 3rd power so if the index grew by a factor of 2 over some time period the value of the ETF would grow by a factor of 8. If the index grew by a factor of 10 over some period of time the ETF would grow by a factor of 1000.
A real leveraged ETF that's balanced daily and not at each infinitesimal moment will *always* lag behind this kind of idealized ETF. The more the index moves between rebalancings the more the real leveraged ETF lags behind this ideal.
@@seneca983 That is not really true, in fact that is the opposite. The least time you rebalance leverage, the least amount of volatility drag you will get. For example, a hypothetical leveraged ETF which never rebalance will not have more volatility drag than a non leveraged counterpart (if you exclude the possibility of a margin call which is the ultimate volatility dragged outcome).
And when you say volatility drag is always negative... negative in what sense ? Expected return with a leveraged ETF or traditional leverage is the same. What volatility drag does is skew positively the distribution of terminal wealth you will get, and thus lowering your median outcome. Average return is still 3x index - costs no matter how you rebalance.
Assuming no mean reversion of course.
@@4CiiD3 "The least time you rebalance leverage, the least amount of volatility drag you will get."
No, it's not how frequently you rebalance. Rather it's how much the price moves between rebalancings. The hypothetical ideal ETF rebalances at each infinitesimal moment so the price only moves an infinitesimal amount between rebalancings (assuming continuity which isn't realistic either) so there's no drag.
"And when you say volatility drag is always negative... negative in what sense ?"
I already explained that. The hypothetical ideal is that returns get raised to the 3rd power (with 3x leverage) if there's no volatility drag at all. Due to volatility drag, a real leveraged ETF will always lag behind this ideal.
The less the index moves between rebalancings (i.e. the less there's day-to-day volatility if rebalancings happen daily) the closer the leveraged ETF will get to this ideal but it will never reach it.
"Average return is still 3x index - costs no matter how you rebalance."
It's (generally) not 3x over multiple days (assuming daily rebalancing).
@@4CiiD3 Volatility always affects daily leveraged in a negative way. Simple example:
Assuming a year has 257 trading days and yields 8% return. Then you want each single day an increase of 0.03% in the underlying for your leveraged etf. Any deviations from that (also known as volatility) will produce a worse outcome.
@seneca983 No, there will always be volatility drag. The reason is that you apply a linear factor to something that doesn't scale linearly.
@@bultvidxxxix9973 No No No No,
For example if you have multiple volatile days to the upside in row or multiple volatile days in a row to the down side, you are better off with the leveraged ETF than your "traditional" leveraged strategy with constant dollar amount in margin.
Only when there are ups then down, you get more volatility decay.
Ian Ayers and Barry Nalebluff of the Yale School of Management disagree. I’m long on 55% TQQQ and 45% TMF rebalanced quarterly.
9+ month results on my channel, more to come.
So many thing to say about this video, but I’m going to simply say this guy is very wrong. If you manage your investments even weekly, you’d never let these scenarios happen…hedge folks, it’s real simple, with a x3 inverse, bleeding stops, you sell the inverse. Minimize/ reduce losses and keep full gains on long position.
Richard: There's a way to multiply your ETF's return.
Me: Yeah, just invest more money LUL.
Richard: Just invest more money LUL.
Me: :O
😂
LUL
I have to disagree with you on this. As you said, it is math. As long as people understand that math can work against you, there is not reason not to invest in leveraged ETFs. Market falling 34% in a day is a bad example since that will never happen. Circuits will come into play. We dont have to agree but I think leverged ETFs are an awesome tool for long term as well. I have 30% of my portfolio into Leveraged ETFs. My Strategy - 1. Allocate certain percentage of overall portfolio into LETFs (30%) 2. Buy dips when market fall 10-20-30%. 3. Rebalance when LETFs rise to 50% of my portfolio. It works if done right. Yes. I DCAed into these during Dec 2018 dip and during Covid. You have to buy dips and need to have a strategy. SOXL, TQQQ, UPRO and TECL are my picks. By the way look at the charts since inception. I do agree that seeing this fall when markets are dropping is not for everyone and because of which this is not for everyone. Cheers.
XIV fell 90% and got terminated because it no longer had the funds to short VIX futures, just FYI.
@@samsonsoturian6013 thats the reason why they don't have 3x inverse VIX ETFs. max they have is 2x.That too they only put 75% of the funds into the index. rest 25% money is not used and would be in their reserve.
There have been scenarios where VIX went from 30 to 21 in 1 day which is 30% drop. This when leveraged becomes 90% drop. This is what happened with XIV. It wont happen now.
I have seen VIX falling by 15% in 1 day but 2x inverse doesn't rise by 30%. it rises by 10%. not even 15%. that's what happening now.
We grow from our previous experiences. Do not make assumptions on what happened previously and judge whats happening now.
@@Reon89 there's still no guarantees. Also, there's a difference between the VIX and VIX futures as the latter also fluctuates with supply and demand.
And I wonder what would happen to a 3X ETF during a flash crash when its value momentarily goes below zero...
@@samsonsoturian6013 the SEC has circuit breakers if an index falls below 20% in 1 day, so it can’t go to zero in 1 day...
@@senseiadam-brawlstars9465 that doesn't mean it can't fall farther in a week. And it also depends of the ETF as a lot of them are invested in swaps or futures. And ETNs actually don't hold the underlying, so they get terminated all the time (especially last year).
Learned hard way, vanished 94% of investment on UCO
nice
That's a crude oil ETF not an index fund ETF. Far more risky
Harder daddy
thats too less. I lost 98.4% thats because I saw my money falling for 10 years straight. And thought that its going to go up by 100000% at some point.
@@Reon89 ;-) same !! My plan is to 💎 hand my lifetime!! Which remind myself never take investment advice from frinds.
So why has TQQQ vastly outperformed QQQ over the (relatively) long term since its inception. The same is true with the levered s&p500. Can you please explain? Why wouldn't it be smart to invest long term in one of these highly risky levered ETFs?
If you’re are long term bullish, and are okay with large losses it is the way to go. I’m putting a lot (and have been) into TQQQ and have gotten about +35% recently.
You are looking at the reported annual returns, which are not reflective of the real daily returns. He explained this clearly in the video.
This is similar to home buying. When a house rises in value, say from $350K to $400K, that would be 14%+ return. But since people don't pay for a house with cash, if a person only put $70K down, the $50K equity is a whopping 71%+ return (assuming you ignore interest, maintenance, taxes, etc).
Of course, this works horribly if the value of the house falls.
What I don’t get is that if you check one of this leveraged ETF in a determined time span, almost always it beat the index it refers to (specially if you check for more than one year period). e.g.: You invest X and after, say, 5 years, you get 10x (while the index is just 2x…). Where is the trick? I mean, you can see retrospectively, that this is true for any given period you check…
Have you found the answer after 2 years brother?
Because I think Richard might be being a little too harsh on this one. As long as you don’t buy while the 3x etf is near ATH, you should be able to get a good return. Probably only buy during corrections/ downturns, and it should be much easier to make a profit in the long run
I really enjoyed the pacing of your explanation, multiple simplified examples and the very subdued visuals overall done in an objective manner. This was very educational for me and I hope the rest of your videos turn out to be just as valuable. Thank you!
From personal experience, I literally totally and completely disagree. Leverage ETFs are literally the best investment for long term holding. Not all leverage ETFs are created equal. There are some that are the best thing you can invest in with extremely good track records while others are just downright bad news. UPRO, TQQQ, and TMF just to name a few are like the gold standard for leverage ETFs. I’ve been holding TQQQ, TMF and UPRO altogether with nothing else for years and if I told you what my portfolio balance is now you would never believe me unless I showed you. And if I showed you, you still wouldn’t believe it.
update?
What about SSO
Just one correction on what you said.....markets dropping 34% in a day is not possible, due to the circuit breakers.
Thanks for making this video. I've recently started adding leveraged ETFs to my portfolio, yet nobody really explained the nuances of the risk as well as you have. You've also convinced me to never skip my plain bagel for breakfast
Keep those ETFs in there, this video isn’t data driven. I’m a director of an equity fund and allocate 25% of my personal portfolio to leveraged strategies.
@@seanhutcheson7638 if you're the director of an equity fund, why are you spending so much time in the comment section of TH-cam trying to convince other people of your findings for free? I'm sure your shareholders wouldn't be happy knowing how you choose to spend your time LOL
@@vancejoy3724 Might wanna ask Cathy Wood why she also shares all her trades and findings for free on TH-cam and via her email list 👀 her shareholders must be very cross with her! She must just be satiating her inflated ego! Or maybe there’s something more to it...
@@seanhutcheson7638 Wood does so on her own TH-cam channel, creating original content. Not in the comment section of somebody who disagrees with her strategy 😂
@@vancejoy3724 I do the same but the content is private :)
So... Upro's inception date was June of 2009 at a price of $1.20. Price of SPY on the same day was $91.84. As of today, prices are $50.93 and $455.51 respectively. $1,000 dollars in each in June 2009 turns into over $42,000 compared to just under $5,000. Granted these numbers do not take into account expenses ratio's but I'm not seeing a negative bias?
You just have to know your product and understand the risks involved in your investment.
If you can take in the big swings it is the right investment
i was thinking the same...
There is big misconception about these leveraged ETFs. You have to have stomach volatility drag, but over long term all such ETFs have vastly outperformed their unlevered counterparts e.g TQQQ vs QQQQ, SPX vs SPY, SOXL vs QQQ or SOXX over 5 years and greater
Correct, i’ve modelled 50 year timeframes.
tqqq lost over 75% of its value in 1 year lmao thats 20 years wasted lol leveraged etfs are only good for short term
1. Market don't dip 34% in a day. We have circuit breakers to prevent that.
2. Volatility decay/Time decay does work against you. So you never hold leveraged commodity of VIX etf. Any underlying index that moves sideways and pump for a brief period of time is horrible to leverage.
3. Stock index tend to move up slowly over time and fall rapidly during crash. As long as you can avoid crash you will make more money investing in leveraged index ETF.
4. Therefore, best strategy is to buy triple leveraged ETF right after crash and ride it until it hits first resistance. Then move to either 2x or non leveraged ETF depending on your risk appetite.
I see so many market experts parrot that volatility decay destroys leveraged ETF during sideways market. Index leveraged ETF should be class of its own since index move up slowly over long period of time with low volatility, therefore making TQQQ an absolute winner.
Are you sure about number 1? Circuit breakers have failed in the past. I think the possibility of being wiped out in another but worse Black Monday will always be there. Highly unlikely, but a real risk.
seems like there is a lot of risk that is outside of your control with 3x, why not instead buy a few companies within the index on leverage that you think will outperform after a dip or crash?
"Markets don't drop 34% in a day."
It doesn't have to be in a single day to wipe you out. 2008 saw the S&P drop 57% from its previous high.
@@evanwheeler7687 And the SSO (2x SP500) was down 81% and not 100%. If correctly rebalanced and used with uncorrelated assets, it might work.
@@evanwheeler7687It does have to be in a single day, because the leverage is resetted on a daily basis.
Ah, so this is like the Kaio-Ken technique from Dragon Ball Z.
1) Will stretch your dollar's power, but if poorly timed will leave you in a much worse position than if you didn't use it.
2) Recommended to use in short bursts rather than prolonged periods
3) King Kai will berate your for going beyond times 3.
Thanks right now I’m invested in a 3x leveraged etf UPRO and was planning to hold long term but now I will have to rethink my decision. Thank you for informing me.
In the long term 3x leveraged etfs are good despite all of the things he is saying. They still give you a better return because the stock market typically goes up, its just not 3x. Its about 2x from pre pandemic high to now (which he fails to mention in the video) and 7.5x in the last 10 years (due to compounding). Also, the stock market will never dip 34% in a day.There's other videos about it with more positive opinions. As long as you're comfortable with a volatile position then you're fine holding it.
@@connorspencer4283 depends on what index you're tracking. The S&P500, for instance, is green 53% of days. Other more sluggish economies, not so much.
Both of the comments from Conner and Samson are correct. I did my own research and have my own strategy which I am practicing but its basically investing monthly in leveraged etfs and when the market dips I double down. I back tested my strategy and it did very well BUT and a big BUT at one point in the back test I was down over 70% of my portfolio so if you can stomach that then power to you. Always remember to diversify.
@@connorspencer4283 thank you, could you possibly give me the link for those videos?
It makes a huge difference if you are averaging cost too
Leveraged _anything_ is usually not quite as awesome as it sounds... market risk goes both ways. Ain't no cheating that!
It’s useful for reducing counter-party risk in the short term.
Leveraged funds have produced returns of 20% if you simply sell under the 225 day moving average and buy above the 225 day moving average. This strategy was tested all the way back to 1929
@@rowanharley9810 Have you back test this in special situation (such as Japan) where stocks has remain flat/under for more than 20 years?
Remember, there is no such thing as a bad looking backtest
I think the point is, mathematically, the market risk does NOT go both ways.
@@rowanharley9810 back testing doesn't take into account that you are a player in the market, making a splash. You weren't in 1929. And there's no way to guage how you would react in the moment to market movements because holding a negative position for a period of time is more stressful than fast forwarding through 100 years of history. And you should ask yourself who were the winners that did benefit? Chances are they were the institution who made those successful trades at the expense of the retailer.
This video has some errors. The S&P can't drop more than 20% in a day without the market being completely shut down so a 3x S&P 500 fund would never reach the >33.3% drop needed to be completely wiped out like it sates in the video. Also, do a search for how a 3x S&P 500 etf performs over the last ten years. vs. a non-leveraged etf like VOO does. The leveraged etf wins hands down. When looking at long term hold of leveraged etf, volatility is your enemy, but a leveraged etf based on a low volatility index like the S&P 500 can be fine. There are also funds and etfs that do 2x leverage with monthly rebalance as well.
You are assuming leveraged ETF is based on S&P 500 where circuit breakers work the way you describe it. If it's not an index based EFT, then losing most of your money is totally possible.
@@unnamedny the whole video is based ion the s&P 500 and if you are going to invest in a leveraged product then you should do something that's based on the S&P 500 or close to it as apposed to an energy or biotech leveraged etf.
Correct, not only the last 10 years, i’ve modelled 50
This is a little lob sided. S&P index has never lost 34% in a day.. so losing it all is fairly unlikely.... And some of the leveraged ETFs have a breaker to prevent this from happening. The volatility drag is true.... So the recovery will be slower than the index but that's to be expected. This video only looks over a short term period... It might look a lot different over a longer term
Nope. Big persistent drops wipe these out. Oldest ones restarted only after the great recession.
They drop to zero. These are for day traders only.
Long term... it's like sticking your money in the UVXY or just the regular VIX ETF.
What you failed to mention is the circuit breakers on the stock market at 7% 15% and 20%.So the market will never have a day where it's goes down more than 34% percent.Second please explain 06/22/2009 when UPRO started up to today. ITS UP OVER 5,100% while the SPY is up 352%. Yes your correct that it may take longer for the leverage to gain back its losses but what I'm noticing everyone who talks about this says the same thing using the same 100$ example over 2 days.Test it over a year
You have a lot of great videos. I'm gonna disagree with your ultimate conclusion that leveraged ETFs are bad. Your opinion is actually quite common on the internet. But it doesn't mean it is true. It is after all an opinion. Backtesting real data shows massive returns for most all period of the market. To get around the bad luck of bad timing right before a market crash, that is where dollar cost averaging comes to the rescue. Opinions don't trump real world observation through back testing. Furthermore, if one were to liquidate when the price actions dips below the 30 week moving average, that would avoid the deepest pains of all recessions.
every time I put money into TQQQ, SOXL, and others for a long term my balance goes up. Yet these people can't seem to explain this unusual phenomenon......
@@thealternativecontrarian9936 your anecdotal experience is not nearly as powerful as the backtesting that Peter Chen is referring to, considering you are doing your investing during the longest bull run in market history. I did a spreadsheet test where I created a daily rebalancing 3x leveraged tracker of the S&P and even with the worst possible timing, consistently investing in the 3x leveraged tracker outperformed doing the same in the underlying index, by at least 70%, and in the best case (following the prolonged postwar boom into the early 1970’s) consistently investing in a triple leveraged etf of the S&P 500, had it existed then, would have netted the investor an astonishing 38x greater return than the already impressive returns produced by the market. I’m currently not invested in a triple leveraged account because if you can avoid being in one during a correction you will certainly improve your long-term return, but once the market returns to more rational pricing, I intend to buy and hold SPXL for the long term.
@@ZachTank2009 I am now all in 3x ETFs and see no reason to be elsewhere. When long I like SPXL, TQQQ, SOXL, DPST, and HIBL. Just those five.
When short I like SQQQ, SPXS, SQQQ, HIBS, and FAZ.
I might add URTY once in a while.
@@thealternativecontrarian9936 i don’t have the stomach for holding triple short positions. I held one throughout April 2020 thinking the market wasn’t done falling and it’s a special hell getting eaten alive while the market rallies, so I have decided that my “conservative” approach is when the market is overvalued (Shiller PE greater than ~35) I buy and hold the base index (VOO) and when the market is undervalued (Shiller less than ~25) I buy and hold SPXL. There’s a deadband in the middle there, which we are currently in, where momentum plays a factor - I currently think the market is headed downwards so I continue to hold my VOO position, but once the Shiller hits 25 im going to be putting all of my efforts towards rolling as much money into triple leveraged long positions as I can, including taking on side hustles, selling stuff, whatever it takes.
@@ZachTank2009 sounds like a decent plan. I've been following a different TH-cam channel that has been excellent at calling tops and bottoms, so I have a general idea on when to stay long and when to short. I watch probably five channels every evening.
So purchase a 5:1 ratio of TBT:TLT and sit on it until EOY? Got it, thanks bro.
I never have and never would short a stock or fund and agree with the video on that. Never buy an inverse fund you can lose many times your basis. When you buy a stock or fund long the most you can ever lose is 100% of your investment. Shorting stocks you can lose much more.
Plain Bagel- 7:34 is not possible- a 34% drop in the market is literally impossible. Due to the flash crashes in 2010 and 2012, any drop in the SP500 of 20% stops trading for the whole day. That is the final of 3 circuit breakers. Circuit breakers 1 and 2 are at 7% and 13%, entitling a 15-minute pause at each breaker. In Covid, we tripped these circuit breakers, and all trading was halted.
TQQQ is up 16,104.60% since inception in 2010. yeah, definitely don't hold it long term, that evil leverage decay and 1% expense fee is going to destroy you.
are you still alive bro? lmaooo tqqq lost over 75% of its value in 1 year. Yeah it is going to kill you one day lmao
@@user-wi6vkq21k9a when it goes up another 3000% during the next bull run, it doesn't matter
@@ilovelum5849 past 3months just from vol drag tqqq lost 12.8% while qqq stayed the same
@@user-wi6vkq21k9a you're guaranteed to have a 70-80% drawdown if you hold leveraged ETFs long enough. like it said, meaningless when it will do another 2-3000% in the next bull run
But then, how do you explain the last 10years for TQQQ ETF, which made a whopping 17500% ? I'm long term 4 years into it and even with a fee of 1%, dollar cost averaging in, l got to say I cannot complain..
Thank you for the video Richard. How about SSO
(ProShares Ultra S&P500) ? This leveraged ETF returned 249% in the last 5 years compared to 101% for SPY. It also performed much better on all other time frames... What am I missing? Thanks. I enjoy your channel. Keep up the good work :)
Yeah y’all keep telling yourselves that. I’m putting everything I can into TQQQ right now. I’ll be adding 60% of my income every month until it hits $40 per share and I’ll hold it until I’ve tripled or quadrupled my initial investment, cash out and put a downpayment on a mansion lol.
TQQQ has done amazingly in 2023. I'm long term 20 year hold but for TECL
Mr bagel sir, have you heard of Daily Leveraged Certificates? What's your opinion on it?
The numbers don’t lie, TQQQ 13.5x in last 5 years, just HODL
For long term , what if you dollar cost average ? or buy the dips? (relatively)
This video sounds so funny when tqqq achieved more than 10x the returns of the ndx in the last fee years thanks to compound interest
You buy the funds cheap. Duh.
The direxion daily biotech fund LABU is currently selling at $103.
That fund based on an index of 131 biotech companies.
LABU sold for over $1000 a share for 2 years from 2017 to 2019 and again over $1000 a share for 18 months from 2020 to 2021.
I bought LABU @ $90 with the hope of selling around $300 or so. That is well below the average price this fund has traded since the fund started in 2016 and it has traded over $2000.
Of course I am bullish on that sector and I'm able to tolerate volatility. I'm not greedy the fund's all time high was $3800. I'm just looking to turn $100k into $300k after taxes and then I will transfer into a solid non leveraged fund like BME.
Have you ever heard of circuit breakers? All trading will be automatically halted for the day if the index falls by 20%. Also, no US index has ever fallen by 33 1/3% in one day. The maximum was 22.6% in 1987. Therefore, the chances of getting entirely wiped out in one day are non existent.
Short the leveraged etfs on down days. It goes down much further giving bigger gains...
yet, the etf he used as example in the video still shows bigger returns than the index, is trading view fooling me?
before I watched this video, I’ve been bag-holding leveraged etfs & lost about 10k in investments.
Something that I wish you’d deal with in this video is: what’s so special about 1x leverage? All the arguments for why 3x is worse than 1x apply equally well to 1x vs 0.33x.
True
True I did not understand the math of having 100 QQQ vs 300 QQQ(100 TQQQ) why people say its bad of having more QQQ in the most of the comments
In fact, most of us are doing something like 0.8x leverage. We hold some dry powder in case the stocks dip and then we buy more getting back to 0.8.
I am viewing TMF currently. What is considered a long-term hold on these leverage positions/typically too long on average? Does safety change at all when you are viewing a 20 year bond etf versus others? And I understand that nothing is guaranteed thank you for the insight.
what if you DCA your long term investments daily into the leveraged ETF? Instead of just lump sum investing, with a high frequency of DCA, wouldn’t that help reduce your exposure to the sequence of return risk that could hurt the portfolio? Also, the broad market indexes can’t drop 34% in a day because the circuit breakers will shut down the market for the day when it drops below 13%
DCAing into an asset that’s in a downtrend is a terrible idea.
Yes, they put these breakers in place to help panic not cause liquidity issues in the market. It doesn't need to drop 34% in a day though for you to lose most of your investment. Another Great Recession or Dot-Com bubble crash would wipe most of the value out of these funds. We have not had a single year with a consistent bear market downtrend since 2009, which makes these funds look good. But history shows that worse things can happen. If the Fed hadn't stepped in with unprecedented asset buying and Congress with stimulus bailouts, these funds might have gone to zero in 2020. Note that pretty much all of them started AFTER the great recession. Do you think the idea didn't exist back then? No...these funds went bankrupt back then and the product had to catch on all over again in the next bull market.
@@martinlutherkingjr.5582 well doing a lump sum into a downtrend is worse. Most people will agree that long term the market has a net positive outlook so the idea is that your DCAing into a long term uptrend. I just think there’s an argument to be made that DCAing into leveraged ETFs over a long time horizon could mitigate some of the risks associated with volatility & variance and possibly lead to better returns but not sure if they could deliver higher risk adjusted returns.
@@danaphanous I agree you can lose a lot of your investment in a short period of time but you can’t lose all of it. Though you could get very close to 0. That’s why I don’t think this would be appropriate for anyone with a short time horizon or without cash flows to consistently invest but I think there’s potential for it to work for long time horizon investors who are consistently DCAing. I’ve tried to research this and there are several mixed findings. Some people have tried backtesting market returns and found that it leads to higher returns than the base index even through the dot com bubble and 08 but also that it has less risk adjusted. There’s also an interesting paper by some Yale professors about how young investors with long time horizon should use leverage (in general not just ETFs) to invest because it provides time diversification for your portfolio.
@@danaphanous I agree that it worked out best for the 2010s decade and that could be an anomaly of a steady bull market run with little volatility & variance because of the feds expansionary policy but I’m skeptical on the idea that they have no place in the portfolio. I feel there could be some way they could be used to achieve kurtosis
So what if you buy the dip? The market (over time) has always gone up so if you buy the down days, can the daily “falls” actually amplify the up days?
What if one buys when VIX is 80 and markets have bottomed. SPX 3X would do wonders when bought In the dip.🤔
You can time the market, but also the market will time you out.
@@plumeater1 Lala, Risk hai toh IsK hai.🥃
timing market is not easy, just because market falls 20% it does not mean it will stop at that mark. Stay invested in quality growth stocks and you will be a winner over period of time no matter what.
What if you split your portfolio between stocks and bonds, but 2x leverage both sides? For example, I'm looking at investing 55% in SSO (2x leveraged SPY) and 45% in UBT (2x leveraged TLT). The bond exposure pretty much makes up the risk of the 2x SPY fund. According to backtesting since 1985, this would return about 3% more than the S&P500
wha if : no more than 10% of your portfolio into TQQQ and every month (or year) add to it and if the market super shits itself then add more.. but stay < 10% so even looong term holding : if dollar cost averaging TQQ should beat SPY ??
These leveraged ETFS are perfect for bull markets, you could have 20x your money if you invested in 2009
Great video that sadly only looks at the negative sides.
As well as the math works against you in a bear market. It will work in your favour in a bull market.
And the S&P500 have Never lost 34% in a single day. It simply can’t ever happened. Why? Because the NYSE will simply close the market for the day if it crashes so bad.
and you can use stop losses to protect your positions if you want. Mine are set to ten percent on any given day which does happen now and then. Of course I just reenter a week or so later....
What would $1,000 invested five years ago into TQQQ, SPXL, or SOXL be worth today? I laugh at these videos that warn people to avoid leveraged ETFs.
What if we enter 3X etf when it already fell 60%?
So get a loan for double your money and invest in QQQ making your personal tqqq who can't go to 0 and replicates exactly what the qqq does long term times 3. Got it.
May I ask, what if you borrowed the money on your own and invested it on an etf. I do not know how long term loans are and how high the interest rates are, but if the return is higher than the interest rate plus the inflation rate couldn't this work? You'd be essentially leveraging by yourself. I'd be interested to discuss this.
Just buy bonds and leave, you are so risk-averse that you can only own cash and bonds...why the hell are you even in the market? Why not go to a Buddhist meditation center and be risk-free for life...markets are not for you
A 1.1 to 2x leverage actually does result in higher returns in the long run
At 3x leverage the negative effects hit too hard
UPRO outperformed its underlying index by 5 times over the last 10 years. How can a 3x fund outperform by 5x? This goes against everything your video just explained.
Compounding..?
@@gabrielgr2653 daily compounding. You can use math to rebut this video, but it’s easier to just look at the charts. Check them out. Compare the SPY to the UPRO over the last 10 years. Volatility has been high over those 10 years and yet UPRO smashed the SPY.
@@stevenmiller2820 as if you’ve done the math lol. Thanks warren
@@gabrielgr2653 theres actually web article were they did the math. But you’re right, I didn’t do it. 😉
People are okay buying 30x leverage investments in the real estate market without any hesitation, but god forgive we buy 3x leverage ETFs like UPRO volatility decay is a myth (mostly), UPRO and others are good because they reset margin daily, use another fund as a risk parity, and hello market outperformance!
Been running a levreged in my practice account for a year. It's crushing my normal portfolio and not down. I'm going to proceed with the real portfolio with a x2 levreged ETF
UPRO can't go to 0 because the SEC stops trading for the day if the S&P500 reaches -20% in a day so the most you can lose in a day is around 60%. Also it's 3x leverage on the underlying stocks not the final index so as long as one of the underlying stocks goes up in a day you will be safe from losing everything.
yeah circuit breakers exist
Correct
What if S&P500 drop -10% for four of five days in a row or something like that, did the UPRO go to zero. Belive me i experienced that with the inverse volatility in 2018 the etf went to zero and i lost 5000$ in one day.
I’m not concerned with the price fluctuations, but I’m trying to figure out if your actual shares can get liquidated somehow w this product?
Using your example, a 1/2 x fund would show positive long-term returns while the underlying fund traded sideways. Would you buy a fund that delivered 1/2 the daily returns? If not, then can you explain why you believe a 1x return is optimal?
If you correctly predict that an index will remain stagnant, yes. But let’s define what a 1/2 leveraged ETF would do by nature. Investing $1000 into one is like investing $500 and keeping the other $500 in cash, and then keeping those amounts equal at the end of every day. Yes, there’s a better chance that it will yield a positive return over a given time period, but the fact that the index itself doesn’t experience decay since it’s not leveraged means it’s probably the best investment without being too aggressive. Basically, choosing between 1/2x and 2x is a prediction of market volatility, and at the point you’re truly able to do that, just gamble your investments into options
@@EthanCowlbeck Your analogy of a 1/2 EFT is incorrect. You're forgetting, the multiples are based on a daily return and so compound daily.
If the 1x ETF returned 2% every day for 10 days, your $500 invested would become $500 x 1.02^10 = $609.50. Add in the other $500 you kept in cash and you have $1109.50.
The 1/2x ETF would yield 1% per day over the same 10-day period, so your $1000 would become $1000 x 1.01^10 = $1104.60
You could view the choice between a 1/2x and a 2x as a choice based on your prediction of volatility, but there are much better ways to capitalize on correct predictions of market volatility.
So again I ask, why is 1x optimal? I'm not trying to predict the future. I just want to know why, if you've already decided which underlying asset you're going to buy, wouldn't you choose some other derivative that yields a multiple return (either more or less than 1) of that underlying instead of just the underlying?
Also, this "Decay" talk is a figment. The share price is the share price. If you bought and held 1 share of UPRO in 2011, you own 72 shares of it now. The fund managers don't steal shares. Their fee is reflected in the trading price If the markets stayed perfectly flat, the fund would ultimately go bust. But that hasn't happened in the history of ever, so hedging against that seems very silly. It's also true for every ETF, as that is how funds collect profits from managing the assets.
On the long run ETF goes up, not down. And it goes up exponentially. Also there is no margin call if it goes down, so as long as you don't sell and retain your shares, you are fine on the long run.
Not really.. there are cases in which an S&P 500 stock ends up gaining money (positive returns) while its corresponding leveraged ETF actually loses money..
Volatility, especially sharp ones, are the enemy.
I dont know if you will be able to read my question but around 7:50 you said that if the etf drops by 34% then your 3x leveraged etf investment will go to zero but even if it rises to 50% or even 100% it will still be zero because 0 times any number is still zero, I’m confused because even though you didnt sell your shares of the 3x leveraged etf how come you would still have 0 amount of money? Hope you read this and explain.
Unfortunately, Mathematicians and Quantitative Research analysts from New Zealand, who studied "The Long Term Behaviour of Leveraged ETFs" (ref: ddnum.com/articles/leveragedETFs.php, full article: papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1664823) completely disagree with you. Here is their conclusion: "Leveraged ETFs can be held long term provided the market has enough return to overcome volatility drag. It usually does. For most markets in recent times the optimal leverage is about 2. But some markets and time frames will reward a leverage of up to 3. No markets will reward a leverage of 4." ... back to me now... Also, if you map Leveraged vs Non-Leveraged over 100 years, Leveraged are better (ref:
Wall Street Millennial video: th-cam.com/video/WzjApwk6VjY/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=WallStreetMillennial) ... Finally, I checked many leveraged etf funds that are tracking popular indexed (S&P500, Nasdaq100) and all of them are doing well and survived many economic down turns. (e.g. TQQQ, SPUU, SSO, QQQ3, UPRO, SPXL, TECL, etc.). If you are looking to optimise portfolio then 2x to 3x leverage is the way to do it, anything below that is under-betting and over that is over-betting. @the plain bagel, would you be so kind to share academic articles that actually indicate why leveraged etfs are bad?
BIG NOTE: Just want to add, that when I am talking about Leveraged ETF, I am assuming we are talking about S&P500 and Nasdaq100, where, based on my research, LEVERAGE IS A MUST (3x is best). However, if you are planning to go with an ETF that does not have a long track record, then DO NOT LEVERAGE under any circumstances, if there is no track record, then Leverage is super risky. Make sure you do due diligence. DUE DILIGENCE IS THE MOTHER OF LUCK! But I am assuming that you are smart enough to know this.
I miss my tvix :(
On the other hand, by the opposite of the volatility drag, if the market goes up 10%, then the triple levered would go up by more than 30%. So, triple leveraged doesn't go up 3 times but more on the long run.
Of course, otherwise it would be an arbitrage opportunity.
Missing half of the information. What about positive drift.
The only financial product where timing the market beats time in the market
They amplified the return and the potential losses lol.
I started buying 3x leveraged investments (TQQQ,UPRO,UDOW) starting Dec 2019 weekly every single week on Fridays as an experiment.
I held them during the Corona market and it was pretty painful, but I kept buying.
I sold out of my positions in Jan 2021. Effectively I made 60%
TQQQ performed wonderfully, but still not 3X of what QQQ did.
The other two did not perform as well.
I think the risk is not worth it to have a substantial investment in them, but I still hold a few leveraged funds like QLD, SMPIX and INPIX. Also, I think the 2X actual performance is much closer then the 3X funds.
What was the reason for selling in jan of 2021 that just sounds silly? the market has done nothing but go up.
All of what he says in this video can happen...in theory. In reality markets are up many more days than they are down. Ultimately, these are just funds. With a share price. That moves based on the price moves of the underlying index. You can go back 10 yrs and look at the share price and compare it today. If you owned them for that price, that’s your return. In reality. Yes, they can drop substantially in a short period of time. You have the option of buying more at a sharp discount. You can also trim at market highs, locking in profits. They are undoubtedly higher risk funds. But they are still just a fund. I’d recommend owning the underlying index as well and stick to common options (I own TQQQ and URTY) to simplify understanding market moves, but these funds can generate great returns.
So I just watched some other videos about leveraged ETFs and some people say that buying them with a 10-15% trailing stop (i.e. if the market drops below that value, you sell automatically) can mitigate a lot of the risk and make the investment worthwhile. Could there be any truth to that? 🤔
When do you buy back in? That’s the hard part
@@CalSticks Well, from what I know, the trailing stop basically acts like a valve and protects you from downturns. As long as that's true, it shouldn't matter when you buy back in. Unless, of course, you were unlucky enough to buy the second before the stock starts dropping.
@@feynstein1004 that’s correct - the trailing stop will close out your positions. But then you are no longer invested, and have to decide when to buy back in.
I say “that’s the hard part” because it’s very difficult to identify when the market has stopped dropping and can be expected to recover - after a drop of 10-15% it wouldn’t be surprising if that was actually quite close to the bottom of the dip and for you to risk missing the ‘recovery’ while waiting for a further drop.
@@CalSticks Ahhh okay I see what you mean now. But prolonged drops in the market should be relatively rare. So this strategy should work most of the time, I think? 😅
@@chase-warwick That's a good point. I guess there's just no way to do it lol
The leveraged ETFs are not buy and hold equities. But if they are in an account you rebalance frequently, say quarterly, they can really boost your returns. Just have to make sure they don’t ever make up too much of your portfolio
What did you mean by “rebalance”?
@@DrivenA111 Let’s say you have 2 equities in your account and you aim to have 50% of each. Over time, inevitably one will out perform the other and you will no longer have a 50/50 split anymore. At that point you sell out of the one performing well and buy into the other to get back to 50/50. You can do that on a set interval to keep your risk a bit lower in your account. Consult with a professional because I am not one.
But due to circuit breakers, the market never goes to 30% down
what about doing DCA with Leveraged ETFs ?
Anyone scared of 3x etf should look at their charts and performance long term. Do not invest in specific sector indexes or commodities and you should be fine...
Have you seen Wallstreet Millennial's video on this subject? He considered investing in the Direxion Daily S&P 500 Bull 3X ETF. With historical data, it would even in the long run greatly outperform the SPY ETF despite volatility drag. It might be worse if only made a one-off investment and the timing was bad but with dollar-cost averaging you'd still be better of than with SPY.
This got me thinking, would it be possible to make a leveraged ETF with long-term investing in mind? It could maybe contain stocks from multiple countries for better diversification and maybe weigh less volatile stocks more. Also, it might not need to fully rebalance daily to mitigate volatility drag.
i actually have been in it for a while. i commented about it above. looking at direxions other products, i really liked DRN which is there leveraged real estate etf. of course as this whole video says. Its not a fairy tale, but its performing for me, for now >:^]
Yea I don't really understand this video when leveraged clearly outperforms nonleveraged extremely well when the market is pumping.
@@HaloDude557 Though you should remember that some other leveraged ETF have probably underperformed the related index.
I agree with some of the points in this video. But let’s say that you have a 10% decrease. After a 11.1% increase, you break even (on normal) and your LETF has to go up 14.3% to break even. But this is assuming that the market goes down over time. Of course that’s not going to return you good things long term, but the market goes up over a long term period, and any chart that you see for the SPXL (3X leveraged S&P500) is ~300% for the past 5 years. Unless the market crashes 34% over the course of a few months (which lets be realistic here, I’d absolutely doubt it) it’ll be worth to invest into a LETF. Short term losses don’t even compare to the long term gains. Since 2008, the SPXL has risen 6,000%. So ya, it can be risky, but unless you’re in a bear market, it will always be more beneficial to do LETF’s.
its never apples to apples, youd have to consider the leverage drift as it works both ways, up and down.
I am hearing of studies that conclude the opposite, though I cannot cite them (I'm researching now). I appreciate the clear presentation of why a 3x product is not truly 3x, but if I pull up any long-term comparisons of SPY vs. UPRO, QQQ vs TQQQ, or SOXX vs SOXL ........ I would prefer the returns from the 3x leveraged products. Respectively the five year returns would have been: 86% vs 261%, 155% vs. 539%, 207% vs 409%. Pull up any long-term charts, side by side, and tell me why the unlevered is better than its levered counterpart. Not trying to be a jerk of a critic, truly just trying to understand and be wise with my money. Thank you for your well-done presentation, with very helpful graphics!
I have the same question and came to the same conclusion as you. Have you done more research on this?
@@Mr69elco Their math is just 1 math that affect the price movement of leveraged etfs. Price movements of stocks are more complicated than just saying a 1% up after a 1% down is a lower value. They also forgot to tell you about the downside is limited to nearly 100% but the upside is essentially unlimited. Also compound interest works its magic on the way up. Sure there are some risk in buying leveraged broad based diversified ETFs and a little extra cost too but so does trading options or any other derivatives.
That's what I thought, I don't know why many want to limit you from buying these ETFs, as long as you have read and researched what they are about, so go ahead
Yeah same here I mean the 3X leverage ETF 7.9X money when the Normal did 2X also to be more careful you can do a sip to avoid the jargon of getting bankrupt plus 34% in a day is just impossible his study is counting in for short term and not long term when the market is bullish which it always is after a good crash if you smart you can keep aside some money since beginig yes given you might lose the 3X factor and only 4X the money when the market is 2X but when the market is down 50% you have a upside potential of 150% excluding the Bulls runs that takes place after the bear hit
Do yourselves a favor and actually backtest how a portfolio performs with 20-30% in TQQQ and the rest in the market versus just S&P500 portfolio. Also, backtest 30% TQQQ and 70% GLD (neg correlation during the hard times). I think the results are illuminating especially when the max drawdowns are similar to just the market.
Financial nerds always talking shit about why these won’t work, but in reality they always do. I’m long TQQQ and UPRO.
💪💪💪
you are Canadian. Take a look at HSU and HQU. Tell me that they have done poorly haha
All of my leveraged ETFs are doing great. The trick is to buy when they fall, so you only get them when they're cheap.
totally agree - best when bought cheap, they have worked really well for me too.
imagine amplifying falling percentages is being called cheap buying
when did the sap ever fall by 34% in a single day?
Dude doesn’t know what he’s even talking about