The Nikon Z9 for Songbirds, Amazing Autofocus Tracking, with a Fatal Flaw?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
- In this video, I take you through the lens to show you the really impressive AF tracking of the Nikon Z9 for songbirds or wildlife photography in general. But what is this fatal flaw?? Why can't I focus on the bird?!
I included 2 tips here (you can find them in the chapters). The tip at the end should really help with focus acquisition so make sure you watch the whole thing.
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00:00 Intro
1:35 Impressive resolution
2:00 Autofocus tracking - 3D mode
4:50 Auto-area focus mode (fail)
6:00 Camera tip for wildlife focusing
10:30 Using 3D to compose frame-filling subjects
12:30 Uncovering the fatal flaw
18:00 Tip for songbird acquisition!
20:45 Conclusion
Love your work Scott! Thanks for sharing.
Thanks!
Thanks Scott, I have found the same to be true for all of the Nikon Z mirrorless camera bodies. Keep up your amazing work on your channel, your tips and humor are much appreciated .
Thanks so much !!
I have found the same issue at times and my work around is to custom set 3d and wide area. If it struggles with finding focus in 3d, I quickly press my function button for wide area, it will grab focus, then go back into 3d. It seems to work well. I just loaded FW 2.0, and will test as well.
I may be a little late to the party but I have the same problem but with my Sony body. The work around for me was the focus limiter switch on the lens. If I know I'm shooting close I just don't allow the lens to focus on distance in the firs place, I don't have focus memory. The other option to bring it in quickly is focus on the ground in front of me then retarget the subject. Unfortunately I'm new to birding so I'm sure some of it is me.
Thanks for the input!
In my experience with a SONY A1, the exact same principle applies.
When I'm about to turn my camera off, I focus on the nearest subject I can find.
When I turn it back on, it will autofocus readily on any target that is farther than this.
It all makes sense to me. An autofocus system that is focusing farther-then-nearer-then-farther forever is 'hunting'. It's going back-and-forth. It will necessarily take more time that a strategy that drills down on a target in one direction (namely 'near-to-far').
its definitely a near to far game, if I start close I usually get it, but if it happens to drop off, I get screwed and trying to get the muscle memory programmed to stay on the lens recall button to rack it all the way back to close to min. focus.
Excellent tips, really helps seeing through the lens! And yes, I do have that focusing issue on my Z7ii. I thought it was something I was doing wrong, like an incorrect setting. I'll have to check for firmware updates, I haven't done that yet. Thanks for the focusing help!
Thanks Barb
Well presented solid info! Sub'd and wish you luck on your channel!
Much appreciated!
Great video. Thank you!
Thanks!
Excellent tips thank you
thanks !
New to your channel. I previously have shot D500/D850 (now Z9) action/sports/wildlife. Was out prior to firmware 2.0 (4/19/2022) and have had the Z9 for four months, but used it the last 3 weeks for migrant birds hitting the Texas coast Wanted to give you a thumbs up for describing the issues in the field we all experience. It is my hope that firmware can eventually overcome this problem all mirrorless cameras seem to have. None of the current work arounds are ideal in my opinion. Racking manual focus for me seems to be the fastest. Pointing at a near object on the ground second. I haven't tried memory set, but for me this might be equally annoying because of the rapidly changing environment in the field and would require multiple memory resets. None of these "fixes" are ideal. I think the memory set function works well for the backyard setup you have. This was never an issue with DSLRs. So I'm going to call on your experience and ask if you have an answer or experienced this (as I have). QUESTION 1: Camera: Z9 + FTZii adapter + 600mm f/4, E, FL, ED, VR - I have tried to program "Recall Shooting" settings to the Fn1 button on the lens without success. Have you been able to do this? I noticed that some features in the Firmware 2.0 update (4 separate focus points) are only available on Z lenses (and only a few Z lenses at that). I didn't know if this feature of "recall settings" needed a Z lens (should not). QUESTION 2: BIF - Pre firmware 2.0, I need too many AF modes because none of them work consistently or reliably enough for me. I have for birds on the ground/tree AF-On (BBAF) set to 3D, Fn1 to single point, and hybrid half press shutter to Wide Area large. If the bird is starting on a tough background, or between tight branches, I'll start with single point and hand off to 3D. If the bird is free of background distractions or in flight, I'll either start with Wide Area (large) or depending on the situation, reprogram single point for Dynamic small and hand off to Wide Area. That's a lot of work and takes away from what should be a simple focus and recompose on the fly (yes, I know this was much harder in the past. I'm spoiled now). I'm curious what your experience is here. BTW: saw a Hermit Thrush here today as well (Quintana, Texas). Migrants this year have been a bit late and fewer in number, but decent species variation (if you can find them).
I will answer the second. I have only started playing with BIF as I was pretty locked in to ducks all winter and moving into songbirds now. I do most of BIF in fall and winter for things like harriers and I think i feel your pain. I did some tracking tests recently with swallows (fast moving!) and 3d was too small so i opened up all the points and it seems to do well. but as you mention as soon as they move into a different "zone" you may way different settings. With my old DSLR I defaulted to group focus as it was a decent compromise as long as I could track the birds in a predictable pattern. Swallows and such move erratically so having a "smart" system greatly helps! I am tweaking the controls still but I have usually defaulted to 3d with Fn1 set to an "oh shit" mode (something takes off) and I'm using Wide Area L with a high shutter speed programed. I think I currently have Fn2 set to open up all AF points so if a bird is relatively clear, it seems to track well.
Not sure if that helps? But these computers that take pictures are allowing so many options its hard to dial it in perfectly for all conditions
@@WildlifeInspired LOL. I would say you got that right. I have a lake across the street, and while there is not a ton to photograph, you can predict the Barn Swallows come out just as the light disappears and swoop over the water - thus needed low light AF, high shutter speed (unless panning - yeah, right). and see them a ways out and get lucky. 3D continues (even after Firmware 2.0 update) to jump off the subject onto the background too often for reliable use (even with close subject) although I keep trying to use it. FYI: I programmed Wide Area - C1 for a long horizontal edge to edge thin box for birds taking off and landing over the water. I worked like a charm. Pre-Capture: Eastern Bluebird landed close to me on the ground. Kept the WA Large box - animal subject detect/eye detect AF engaged and of course I hit the shutter button at least a quarter second after lift off. All images from bird on the ground to take off (some stunning) were recorded. Did it twice. Worked both times. Can we say "Sweet"?
Good video, great info. I have heard the same focusing flaw in the Sony and Canon systems. I have yet to make the jump to mirrorless, still enjoying my old d500 workhorse….maybe one day. Again, good video!
d500 is still an amazing body. old or not. Shes a trusty friend
Phillip, I love my D500. It's an awesome DSLR camera. I'm assuming since you are viewing this channel and have that camera you shoot wildlife/birds. The issues raised in this video is currently the main issue with mirrorless technology as it exists today. I'm not sure if a firmware update can overcome it or if it will need some special hardware or both. That said, Nikon has finally turned the corner on Mirrorless and shooting with the Z9 is an entirely new experience. The biggest differences for you in the future would be: Faster AF even on the lenses you have now (i.e. 200-500mm f/5.6 or 500 PF), silent and blackout free shooting - making following BIF much easier, improved AF accuracy especially with eye detection, and faster FPS (30 fps full size jpg, 11 mp 120fps jpg). Firmware 2.0 is going to add pre/post capture to the jpg settings. For those that say they "ONLY SHOOT RAW", I say if you ALWAYS ONLY SHOOT RAW you are closed minded, and not taking advantage of features the Z9 now has because you want the advantage of flexible file editing. You're trading one advantage for another. To Only Shoot in Raw is to me as silly as saying I always "fill in the blank". The DSLRs were not known for video either and the video AF on the Z9 is next level. Why am I telling you all this? Prior to the Z9, there wasn't a Nikon mirrorless camera that could really match the D500. Now, and I'm sure in the future, Nikon is finally there. When they come out with their 200-600 Z (Sony matching) lens, you might give it a thought especially when the technology trickles down.
I have set up 3D tracking to the joystick "I am a back button focus user" the shutter button is only used to fire off the camera. The back AF-ON is set up for wide area large with animal detection set to animals, not need for the camera to be hunting for subjects that are not in my viewfinder.
To be honest I hardly use 3D Tracking, once my subject locks on while pressing the AF-ON back button all I need to do is make sure to keep it in the viewfinder and fire away.
It's not a matter of tracking, it's acquisition. BBF or shutter focus doesn't matter here. The contrast detection does not work at "close" range with smaller subjects.
The "fatal flaw" is a problem on all mirrorless platforms to date (as far as I have tested). Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Fuji and Olympus all experience this same problem to various degrees. (I've pretty much tried them all. (Although I have not tested the Nikon Z9 and the OM-1)). DSLR's (with mirrors) that we once used had a separate focus system and worked better for grabbing focus on smaller subjects in the foreground. This problem rears its ugly head with telephoto lenses in which there's a large focal range. Hopefully sensor manufacturers will figure this out at some point. It's the Achilles Heel to mirrorless cameras.
Gotta say, even though I’m a Canon guy, I did appreciate the spring shirt
lol next time just for you Maidens (you wild freak)
Too funny, I had the same issue the other day on my Sony with a silver breasted broadbill, and it was frustrating. I was on a tripod, so no big deal switching to manual focus- excellent video.
Thanks!
Good content, Scott. I forgot the term - but memory recall is a time saver. When you get the 800mm you will have fun with that lens too.
I do think its being ordered soon. Should be awesome for the hawkwatch! Open invite in September man.
@@WildlifeInspired I am there man.
@@WildlifeInspired Keep me up on that one (and the lens). When I was out today, I ran into someone with the Z9 + 400mm f/2.8 + Built in TC 1.4. Sweet. Not in my budget yet.
That's definitely been an issue for me as well. I'm curious to know if you've found the problem to be worse with certain lenses over others? I did the same and setup the memory recall feature on both my 600mm F4E and the 500pf. Anxious to load up the 2.0 firmware tonight and see how it performs.
JUST MADE A 2.0 video spoiler alert no change will post soon
I think we shouldn't expect too much here from the autofocus. Even I wouldn't recognize that blurry mush in the foreground as a bird. How should a computer do?
On occasion my Sony a1 will not focus close, as you showed in your video. I will assign a button for the issue. Great video!
Thanks!
This is an interesting flaw, I have never run into this. I have tracked dogs from 200 ft away to 10ft away and back and forth and this has never been an issue. Interesting to see the 2.0 firmware test. Good work around tip,
maybe the larger subjects is less of an issue. I had the same issue when working close distance with my 70-200 for flowers. The lens would NOT focus close. I had to manually use the ring focus, autofocus was useless as it kept crawling to the background.
@@WildlifeInspired Curious if you have updated the firmware on your camera/lenses. The LF 1.2 firmware corrects this "Fixed an issue that in rare instances would result in hybrid autofocus halting at the minimum focus distance during contrast-detect AF." Not sure if this is what you describing but it sounds similar. Referring to the 70-200 because I don't have the other lens you mentioned but maybe there is firmware updates for that one also. Just thought I would ask.
I will update and see if it looks better
This video was shot before the 2.0 firmware update?
I recorded this the day the firmware was announced. And yes before update. I am doing a follow up today !
1:36 Portrait season? Please explain. I can't find it in my Z9 menus. LOL
Going to be honest, I read most of the comments and have no idea what your comment means. If I used the phrase in the video, I assume I meant that songbird season was arriving here in the northeast.
@@WildlifeInspired It's ok, i've been misunderstood all my life (sob sob sob )
LOL. Now I'm going to have to go back and get the time of your words I was referring to. If I had half a brain I would have done that first saving you the confusion :)
@@WildlifeInspired Oh look, I did mark the time in my comment.
Yeah ok I cheated and just added it.
@@WildlifeInspired By the way, my method is to drive the focus ring with my left thumb which gives focus highlighting or Fn1 button which is set to single point to get close and then go to back button which is set for 3d subject tracking. And I thought my D850 was a piece of magic! Oh but how much more wonderful is the Z9! Still got much to learn though. Also, I just completed my feeder platform next to the birdbath. I sat watching for ages yesterday and all my offerings were ignored. All the species just wanted a drink and splash about. I put out 3 different branded bird feeds. Oh well. :)
Tony & Chelsea for life….
Not sure I understand the context, but assume you enjoy the Northrups
The Z6/7/6ii/7ii all have that limit focus mode option.. also have you tried the box with the eye tracking? It narrows down the area instead of the whole frame but gives a little more than the single point. It won't change the issue with the lens coming back but is probably my favorite mode. The nice thing about the Z9 vs the Z6/7(ii) is that the eye tracking can leave the box. Hopefully that can change in the Z6/7(ii) in a firmware update.
Agreed, that focus recall is a huge help with that issue in mirrorless cameras. It gets used a lot more now than it did with dslr.
The Z6ii did not have the ability to shut off some of the focus areas? I will check the menu again, but thanks for letting me know. I know you can turn off the AF-S but didn't think you could restrict the areas. Of course I could be very wrong, lol
Joe, I don't own the Z6, 7 or second itterations of those cameras. The Z9 is my first full frame mirrorless camera. Not sure what you mean by "all have that limit focus mode option". Is the "option" you are talking about Wide Area = Small/Large? (Dynamic also limits focus area). I also am not following your question: "Have you tried the box with the eye tracking?". Wide Area (large/small) are AF modes where people, animal, auto, vehicles detect can be engaged or not depending on what you are shooting. Eye detect also works with 3D. Not with single point or dynamic (as best I know). As of today (4/20/2022) you can now customize the size of the wide area box and it will work with all of the subject detection modes. Can you explain what you were referring to?
@@dance2jam Scott talked about it in the video and asked people to comment if it is in the Z6/7 (ii) bodies and Im just letting him know that it is indeed in those bodies.. Ive owned the Z6 and currently have the Z6ii and 7ii and they are there... I know because I can't stand flipping through focus area modes I don't use, so I've eliminated the ones that I don't use.. You can limit what focus modes are or are not in the menu when assigning a function button to scroll through /change them... In my personal preference, I've assigned the record button (in stills) to change focus modes and af-c/af-s) by button press in combination with front and back command dials
@@dance2jam and what I mean by box with eye tracking. In the Z6ii/7ii you can use the large box (rectangle) and the eye tracking will pick up the eye within that box. The 3D tracking in the Z6/7 (ii) is nowhere near what Ive seen the Z9 do.. and in the Z9 you can have multiple af-on with with separate area modes, by assigning another button. So you can use the box (say on half shutter press and then assign the af-on with 3D/eye tracking to another button.. so when you put the box on a subject and when the eye starts tracking you can hit the other button and it'll switch af modes but continue locked on the eye... So in two of Scotts examples in the video, what I just explained would be the best of both worlds. So can't wait for my Z9 to show up! 😁 but Im far down the list right now 😭
@@WildlifeInspired yup its under custom menu settings A8 for Z6/7 and A7 for 6ii/7ii... at least thats what they were under those... the letters/numbers may have changed placement in the menu with added functions/features in firmware updates
if the subject is so out of focus that it is just a 'blob' the 3d will have a hard time tracking - I have one of my BBF with single point - no subject AF for those cases - a quick push of this button will now set the proper focal plane so that subject recognition and tracking will now work. Basically if all the camera is 'seeing' is a big blob it will not find the subject.
agree when the close subject becomes OOF, it loses all contrast and NADA. It seems to be an issue when the subject is more isolated. Check out the next follow up video where I show a bird in a dense tree and had no issues as the tree was high contrast and occupied the whole frame so the camera was able to find it and therefore found the bird easilty
Yep, unfortunately this is a mirrorless trait related to on sensor PDAF... Z9 may be very slightly worse but they all do that. Funny enough one of the best in this is the Oly OM1 series, they aren't near as bad as the big three. I've set my memory recall on my lens to near min focus for when this occurs. I've uploaded the 2.0 firmware and will be going away for the next four days shooting, so a good test will be had. Definitely something you need to get used to with going from DSLR to MILC... I know I've been frustrated more than once!!
Im hoping it gets better soon. At close distance, I lose shots with my DSLR set ups when shutter gets loud.
I noticed that also coming from a D850 and D500. But it's not something I am losing sleep over. The Z9 is RIDICULOUS.
Unfortunately, 2.0 doesn't fix this. My solution for it is to find something close to shift to (not just an isolated item with the background still in focus, but the majority of the scene close), then switch back. Or, as you have done, manually focus. But it is annoying, especially since the D850 worked perfectly in this regard.
Just made a video and saw no difference!
FYI, firmware 2.1 is out, claims to have fixed this issue.
It did not, although it has improved. The AF issues described here and elsewhere had me considering going back to my D500, but recently I discovered a setting that solves the problem, which is to use the Pinpoint AF mode. This nails those close up low contrast tiny objects (like a bird flitting in a tree and I'm trying to get a shot off to ID the bird), and in my tests it works way better than Single Point AF - problem is it requires you to be in AF-S mode, so you lose all the benefits of AF-C. That's ok though if you are trying to ID a bird or capture a snap of one that landed on the tip of a branch a few yards in front of you and the Z refuses to focus in all other modes (the only recourse being to manually focus or point to something close by to rack the focus). By the time you do that the bird is one. If I'm anticipating action shots or for my subject to be hanging out a while then I'll switch back to AF-C, otherwise AF-S and pinpoint for me.
Z6 and Z7 had the exact same problem
Maybe firmware will help?
@@WildlifeInspired doubt it because it has been years and they never fixed it with either the z6, z6 ii, z7 and z7 ii. We'll see
The Z9 is a D850 on steroids. I received the camera five days ago. I set up the camera to 15 fps with a bottomless buffer"lossless compressed raw, no high efficiency *" for BIF, 20 is too many to have to go through. I also don't do any spray and pray shooting. Using the D850 helped to perfect my technique. The Z9 is RIDICULOUS.
Its a monster for BIF try focusing on something right in front of you ...... its bad......
@@WildlifeInspired yes, it's the shortcomings of mirror-less systems. I avoid shooting small birds in close proximity while they are surrounded by clutter.
Remember that DSLRs have been around for decades and their focusing systems have been optimized for decades.
The problem with mirror-less systems is that the sensor does all the focusing "different with DSLRs, the sensor does some, but it's mostly done by the lens, another reason why with DSLRs you need to find tune the autofocus of the lens with the camera body, which is not the case with mirror-less systems" which uses contrast "as it has to" as it's base to send the information to the lens so the lens can aquire focus on the target .
When with birds in flight, for focus acquisition, the DSLR can not be beat, mirror-less also struggles with this, especially if the target is not close enough.
At the end of the day, no system will be perfect, each has it's strengths and weaknesses, the strengths of mirror-less outweighs it's shortcomings.
Another reason why there is a place for both systems, DSLRs and mirror-less
Canon mirrorless pretty much same thing, once it's locked on something high contrast in the background, will not come back - grrrrrrrr
have you tried programming the lens button if thats available
@@WildlifeInspired ya it helps, but sometimes all you've got is a second
@@brandesd Exactly (see my comment above). Completely agree, brother.
your fatal flaw is a mirrorless flaw the canon r3 and r5 both do it
That's what I hear, but I wanted to test it specifically for songbirds. I think here is where the flaw is exposed the most, close range smaller target, something DSLR had no issues with.