Oddly enough, you made me feel much better about my chess board, along with ALL my other shop projects. This is why guys like need to keep our day jobs. All kidding aside thanks for sharing, and at least others have learned from your mistakes. Possibly the wood was to wet???
Hey Greg, That build was such an enjoyable disaster! I watched every bit and subscribed. I mean, I liked the design, the laser-gold leaf bit and the finish looked fantastic. The fact it warped, twisted and imploded was kind of entertaining but, I have to say I felt your pain! Thanks to you I will never, ever use MDF for backing! I made a board 4 months ago and used high grade marine ply as a substrate and 30 minute epoxy to join them together. So far so good for my board. I expect you will make a near perfect board next time, so thanks for sharing. One Handed Maker - Australia
Thank you! I’m glad you liked it! We enjoy showing our success and mistakes. Also it’s a wonderful comment coming from you! I love your work. Keep up the good work! Cheers
I'm not gonna lie, I cried a bit at the end of this video. But buck up my friend and keep at it and you will be victorious. I can't count how many weeks, months I've spent on a project just to throw it in the wood stove. But eventually I am able to throw my hands in the air and scream, "I WIN".
Good on you for putting all of this out there! I think there are a few underlying concepts of expansion and contraction that may be worth reading up on. Some lessons are best learned by doing, but this is one where you can avoid it by learning the principles behind the failures. The first concept is that there really is no way to restrict the natural movement of wood. Wetting it, clamping it, gluing or screwing it to something else that is stable, etc won't work. Either the wood will force the substrate to bow, cup, or twist, or the wood will split itself apart. Nature will win. Second - End grain boards like this are very unstable. This is one of the reasons why good quality end grain cutting boards are at least an inch and a half thick. They are very prone to cupping. Gluing it to plywood or MDF will just not work, nor will putting a solid wood border around an end grain board. It'll move a lot, and the border won't move in the same ways. The other thing is that plywood, MDF, whatever, do not expand and contract at nearly the same rate as wood. So you really shouldn't glue wood thicker than a veneer to plywood. I said above that nature will win... well veneer is the exception. At some point, if you cut the wood thinly enough, the wood isn't strong enough for its expansion and contraction to overcome the strength of glue and plywood. I've watched a lot of chess board builds lately, including the channel you mentioned. I've seen a lot of guys glue 1/4" - 1/2" tops down to plywood a lot and it makes me cringe every time. It's a pretty big gamble to glue solid wood thicker than about 3/16" (max veneer thickness) to plywood. If the wood is really well acclimated to the climate, and the climate is very consistent in terms of temperature and humidity (i.e., a really well insulated house with even temps and humidity control), then I guess a board like that could last. But otherwise, there's a high chance the boards will fail. So IMO, if you want to make a board that will last, either the board needs to be veneered to a stable substrate, or it needs to be an end grain cutting board that's a minimum of an inch and a half thick with no border, or it needs to be a face grain board that isn't glued down to plywood and doesn't have a solid wood border. Those are the only configurations I can' think of where expansion and contraction won't cause you major problems.
Cupping in this case was caused by one of 2 things. The introduction of water to only one side of the substrate(glue). When it dries, it will shrink. The way to avoid this is to do both sides. Both sides is a necessity. A secondary cause contributing to this could be the hardwood not being sufficiently/properly dried. If a high moisture content at the center of those 3in thick planks you started with was suddenly exposed to air shrinkage would be extremely difficult to compensate for. I use mdf as my goto in most of my veneer work. It's ideal. I have even used partical board for the core of door panels. The substrate wasn't your issue. The results would have been a failure given the conditions the wood was put under no matter what you used.
Just found your channel and after watching the video decided to subscribe. I appreciate that you showed it all - especially the mistakes. In the near future I am planning to try making a similar board and hopefully learned from your mistakes. Looking forward to the next attempt which I'm sure will be a success.
Thanks so much for subscribing! I think it goes without saying, but I would suggest the first attempt at a chess board not be end grain lol. Good luck with your project!
Ha! I just made a box with a cool houndstooth top that I laminated onto a quarter inch mdf substrate and I got the same cupping. Love to see the mistakes since I probably learn more than a perfect job. You inspired me to not give up, and try again.
@mtroyer66 Fantastic! Ya know I just spoke with someone last night who told me what my problem probably was. He said that a panel has to be balanced. So whenever you laminate something to one side of a panel, you have to laminate something on the other side as well so that the moisture in the glue equally effects both sides. Haven’t tried this yet so do what you will with that info lol. Thanks for watching!
Holy crap! So much work. I’ve experienced serious cupping and tried the same remedies with zero success. I feel for you man. Thanks for being human and sharing your struggles. Good luck with your future projects.
Thanks for the question! So this wood was most likely kiln dried. But I don’t believe that was the issue. I’ve spoken to some far more experienced woodworkers than myself since this video and I’ve found out a couple things. End grain wood like this just naturally swells and contracts with the temp/moisture. With the width of my chessboard here, it can expand and contract up to 3/16”. My biggest (well, one of the biggest) mistake was using dowels and wood glue to attach it to the frame. This gave the end grain zero room to expand and contract. So when the temp/humidity changed, it split. So next time, I think I’ll try attaching it using some kind of silicone or other flexible adhesive.
@@TheFridayForge thanks for the response. I understandwith cutting boards why one would want to use end grain, that it is gentler on the knives. Is their some other characteristic that makes it desirable for a chess board? Just a different aesthetic?
Hi, ... I'm saddened to see your project didn't turn out for you this time ... Really good video outlining your determination to succeed coupled with the pitfalls of taking on this type of project ... I'm certain you will get there ... 'If at first you don't succeed' ... keep trying, your dedication will pay off ... 🙂👍
I appreciate you sharing your experiences on here. I have been wanting to make a chess board, but I don’t want to do an end grain board. Do you think the cupping had anything to do with that or was it the MDF or your process? It ended up looking good at the end but obviously that was short lived. Thanks for the video and sharing it
Appreciate the comment! So yes, the end grain expands and contracts at a much greater rate than your typical edge grain chess board. If I was doing it again, I would not glue it to MDF. In my case when I put glue on the bottom of the end grain, the moisture caused that side (and only that side) of the end grain to expand and cup like you saw. The MDF just went along with it. I would imagine that you wouldn’t see near as much cupping if using edge grain wood since it doesn’t absorb as much moisture. But that being said, I’m not sure if it would work that well still. Look up a TH-cam channel called Wood U Make It, if you haven’t seen it already. He’s done a few where he glues his chess board to 3/4” plywood. I THINK in those ones he glued a second chess board on the other side of the plywood (making it double-sided) so that the moisture from the glue causes equal expansion forces on the wood. That’s 100% a guess lol but makes sense in my mind. Sorry for the long winded response, but hope it was at least a little bit useful. Needless to say, I definitely do not suggest end grain for a first attempt 😊
I am glad for the reply and all the feedback. I have seen several of Mike’s videos and he does use plywood. Thanks for sharing your video and responding back!
@@TheFridayForgemost definitely do both sides. The glue type is also something to consider. PVAs contain water, urethane glues and epoxy do not. None of that matters if the hardwood is not properly and fully dried. I would suggest making the board top and bottom as thin as you can. That makes it easier for the substrate to lock it in place. Definitely under 1/4 in thick veneer with a minimum 1/2 substrate.
I really appreciate your video. I subscribed. If I may, I think the cause of your board cracking is you did not let the board expand. When you pegged them at each corner, the board could not expand as it will with seasonal movement and the wood cracked. Next time, elongate the hole’s where you use the pegs and you will be fine. Good luck, mate.
@@TheFridayForge When I first started woodworking I read the book “Understanding Wood” by R. Bruce Hoadley. A great reference book to have in your shop!
You did a good job. I make chess boards from exotic woods also and there is a huge learning curve. My first 2 boards are leaning against wall as a reminder of my mistakes. Mike over on Wood You Make it. Has it down pat follow his instructions and you will be top of your game. 3/4 ply is one secret also dowels or dominos is the other for your miters. Keep your chin up and rock on 🤘
Thanks for the encouragement! I’m still on the fence about whether I should try to fix this board somehow or just let it be a “reminder” piece. But regardless, more chess boards are in the future!
Was just about to glue individual cut squares hardwood of 1/4in onto. 3/4in MDF on one side before I saw this video. Already tossed one solid board by oiling only one side. Curious if, for this MDF one, if i seal the mdf in glue all around, then when dry, glue the squares on top. Do you think this is worth a shot since I have plenty of mdf?
Tough to say really. I think we’ve all but given up on MDF. I would hate for you to try it and it fail. But if you have enough MDF and you’re willing to experiment. I say give it a shot and for sure let us know.
@@TheFridayForge UPDATE: I mistaken the particle board I used with MDF. The 3/4 particle board sealed with glue around worked with no warp. However, I don't know if it is prone to warping or not originally. I applied wood glue sparingly when adding the cut squares to the top after sanding the first coat of glue. The oak and walnut chessboard came out really nice.
shelving the project for months... I feel that. Too much to explain here but a project I have yet to finish, has been put on hold a couple times because of painful moments like that.
Good question. If you’ve got a decent saw I would say it’s probably that the blade is dull. I used the blade that came with my dewalt for a while before spending some decent money on a blade. But it made a huge difference. So I would start with that 😊
“In a fit of rage I sanded all the gold leaf off and shelved the project for several months”. This is the most real woodworking video on the internet.
Thank you! We try to keep it real
Oddly enough, you made me feel much better about my chess board, along with ALL my other shop projects. This is why guys like need to keep our day jobs. All kidding aside thanks for sharing, and at least others have learned from your mistakes. Possibly the wood was to wet???
Hey Greg,
That build was such an enjoyable disaster! I watched every bit and subscribed.
I mean, I liked the design, the laser-gold leaf bit and the finish looked fantastic.
The fact it warped, twisted and imploded was kind of entertaining but, I have to say I felt your pain!
Thanks to you I will never, ever use MDF for backing!
I made a board 4 months ago and used high grade marine ply as a substrate and 30 minute epoxy to join them together. So far so good for my board.
I expect you will make a near perfect board next time, so thanks for sharing.
One Handed Maker - Australia
Thank you! I’m glad you liked it! We enjoy showing our success and mistakes. Also it’s a wonderful comment coming from you! I love your work. Keep up the good work! Cheers
I'm not gonna lie, I cried a bit at the end of this video. But buck up my friend and keep at it and you will be victorious. I can't count how many weeks, months I've spent on a project just to throw it in the wood stove. But eventually I am able to throw my hands in the air and scream, "I WIN".
Good on you for putting all of this out there! I think there are a few underlying concepts of expansion and contraction that may be worth reading up on. Some lessons are best learned by doing, but this is one where you can avoid it by learning the principles behind the failures.
The first concept is that there really is no way to restrict the natural movement of wood. Wetting it, clamping it, gluing or screwing it to something else that is stable, etc won't work. Either the wood will force the substrate to bow, cup, or twist, or the wood will split itself apart. Nature will win.
Second - End grain boards like this are very unstable. This is one of the reasons why good quality end grain cutting boards are at least an inch and a half thick. They are very prone to cupping. Gluing it to plywood or MDF will just not work, nor will putting a solid wood border around an end grain board. It'll move a lot, and the border won't move in the same ways.
The other thing is that plywood, MDF, whatever, do not expand and contract at nearly the same rate as wood. So you really shouldn't glue wood thicker than a veneer to plywood. I said above that nature will win... well veneer is the exception. At some point, if you cut the wood thinly enough, the wood isn't strong enough for its expansion and contraction to overcome the strength of glue and plywood. I've watched a lot of chess board builds lately, including the channel you mentioned. I've seen a lot of guys glue 1/4" - 1/2" tops down to plywood a lot and it makes me cringe every time. It's a pretty big gamble to glue solid wood thicker than about 3/16" (max veneer thickness) to plywood. If the wood is really well acclimated to the climate, and the climate is very consistent in terms of temperature and humidity (i.e., a really well insulated house with even temps and humidity control), then I guess a board like that could last. But otherwise, there's a high chance the boards will fail.
So IMO, if you want to make a board that will last, either the board needs to be veneered to a stable substrate, or it needs to be an end grain cutting board that's a minimum of an inch and a half thick with no border, or it needs to be a face grain board that isn't glued down to plywood and doesn't have a solid wood border. Those are the only configurations I can' think of where expansion and contraction won't cause you major problems.
Cupping in this case was caused by one of 2 things. The introduction of water to only one side of the substrate(glue). When it dries, it will shrink. The way to avoid this is to do both sides. Both sides is a necessity.
A secondary cause contributing to this could be the hardwood not being sufficiently/properly dried. If a high moisture content at the center of those 3in thick planks you started with was suddenly exposed to air shrinkage would be extremely difficult to compensate for.
I use mdf as my goto in most of my veneer work. It's ideal. I have even used partical board for the core of door panels. The substrate wasn't your issue. The results would have been a failure given the conditions the wood was put under no matter what you used.
Just found your channel and after watching the video decided to subscribe. I appreciate that you showed it all - especially the mistakes. In the near future I am planning to try making a similar board and hopefully learned from your mistakes. Looking forward to the next attempt which I'm sure will be a success.
Thanks so much for subscribing! I think it goes without saying, but I would suggest the first attempt at a chess board not be end grain lol. Good luck with your project!
I am now at the point that I shelved the project.. I'll get back to work..Think the gold was a nice idea. Hope to see your second attempt
that was a super tough watch
Good job. Keep it up.
Thank you!
Ha! I just made a box with a cool houndstooth top that I laminated onto a quarter inch mdf substrate and I got the same cupping. Love to see the mistakes since I probably learn more than a perfect job. You inspired me to not give up, and try again.
@mtroyer66 Fantastic! Ya know I just spoke with someone last night who told me what my problem probably was. He said that a panel has to be balanced. So whenever you laminate something to one side of a panel, you have to laminate something on the other side as well so that the moisture in the glue equally effects both sides. Haven’t tried this yet so do what you will with that info lol. Thanks for watching!
Just FYI 2 1/4 " squares is regulation size.
Holy crap! So much work. I’ve experienced serious cupping and tried the same remedies with zero success. I feel for you man. Thanks for being human and sharing your struggles. Good luck with your future projects.
Thank you Rick! Everything is a learning opportunity 😊
Oof. I aspire to some light woodworking like this, so this is an honest question, not a critiquea; was this fully dry wood when you started?
Thanks for the question! So this wood was most likely kiln dried. But I don’t believe that was the issue. I’ve spoken to some far more experienced woodworkers than myself since this video and I’ve found out a couple things. End grain wood like this just naturally swells and contracts with the temp/moisture. With the width of my chessboard here, it can expand and contract up to 3/16”. My biggest (well, one of the biggest) mistake was using dowels and wood glue to attach it to the frame. This gave the end grain zero room to expand and contract. So when the temp/humidity changed, it split. So next time, I think I’ll try attaching it using some kind of silicone or other flexible adhesive.
@@TheFridayForge thanks for the response. I understandwith cutting boards why one would want to use end grain, that it is gentler on the knives. Is their some other characteristic that makes it desirable for a chess board? Just a different aesthetic?
Yes. Perhaps also the prestige of saying you did it lol. But I doubt I’ll be doing end grain again anytime soon…
Hi, ... I'm saddened to see your project didn't turn out for you this time ... Really good video outlining your determination to succeed coupled with the pitfalls of taking on this type of project ...
I'm certain you will get there ... 'If at first you don't succeed' ... keep trying, your dedication will pay off ...
🙂👍
Thank you!
I appreciate you sharing your experiences on here. I have been wanting to make a chess board, but I don’t want to do an end grain board. Do you think the cupping had anything to do with that or was it the MDF or your process? It ended up looking good at the end but obviously that was short lived. Thanks for the video and sharing it
Appreciate the comment! So yes, the end grain expands and contracts at a much greater rate than your typical edge grain chess board. If I was doing it again, I would not glue it to MDF. In my case when I put glue on the bottom of the end grain, the moisture caused that side (and only that side) of the end grain to expand and cup like you saw. The MDF just went along with it. I would imagine that you wouldn’t see near as much cupping if using edge grain wood since it doesn’t absorb as much moisture. But that being said, I’m not sure if it would work that well still. Look up a TH-cam channel called Wood U Make It, if you haven’t seen it already. He’s done a few where he glues his chess board to 3/4” plywood. I THINK in those ones he glued a second chess board on the other side of the plywood (making it double-sided) so that the moisture from the glue causes equal expansion forces on the wood. That’s 100% a guess lol but makes sense in my mind.
Sorry for the long winded response, but hope it was at least a little bit useful. Needless to say, I definitely do not suggest end grain for a first attempt 😊
I am glad for the reply and all the feedback. I have seen several of Mike’s videos and he does use plywood. Thanks for sharing your video and responding back!
@@TheFridayForgemost definitely do both sides. The glue type is also something to consider. PVAs contain water, urethane glues and epoxy do not. None of that matters if the hardwood is not properly and fully dried. I would suggest making the board top and bottom as thin as you can. That makes it easier for the substrate to lock it in place. Definitely under 1/4 in thick veneer with a minimum 1/2 substrate.
I feel your pain. I'm trying to cnc chest pieces let me tell you it's painful. No rotary cnc one side and turn.
Has anyone tried this with vcarve pro and if so how do you rotate all four side accurately
I really appreciate your video. I subscribed. If I may, I think the cause of your board cracking is you did not let the board expand. When you pegged them at each corner, the board could not expand as it will with seasonal movement and the wood cracked. Next time, elongate the hole’s where you use the pegs and you will be fine. Good luck, mate.
Thanks for the input! And thanks for the sub! I agree. I had no idea just how much end grain stuff expands!
@@TheFridayForge When I first started woodworking I read the book “Understanding Wood” by R. Bruce Hoadley. A great reference book to have in your shop!
Can you measure the bend and fill the gap with other material?
We probably could. But I just think it was too far gone for any other major correction.
You did a good job. I make chess boards from exotic woods also and there is a huge learning curve. My first 2 boards are leaning against wall as a reminder of my mistakes. Mike over on Wood You Make it. Has it down pat follow his instructions and you will be top of your game. 3/4 ply is one secret also dowels or dominos is the other for your miters. Keep your chin up and rock on 🤘
Thanks for the encouragement! I’m still on the fence about whether I should try to fix this board somehow or just let it be a “reminder” piece. But regardless, more chess boards are in the future!
Was just about to glue individual cut squares hardwood of 1/4in onto. 3/4in MDF on one side before I saw this video. Already tossed one solid board by oiling only one side. Curious if, for this MDF one, if i seal the mdf in glue all around, then when dry, glue the squares on top. Do you think this is worth a shot since I have plenty of mdf?
Tough to say really. I think we’ve all but given up on MDF. I would hate for you to try it and it fail. But if you have enough MDF and you’re willing to experiment. I say give it a shot and for sure let us know.
@@TheFridayForge UPDATE: I mistaken the particle board I used with MDF. The 3/4 particle board sealed with glue around worked with no warp. However, I don't know if it is prone to warping or not originally. I applied wood glue sparingly when adding the cut squares to the top after sanding the first coat of glue. The oak and walnut chessboard came out really nice.
@oniteprompt2976 well done! That’s good to know. Might have to give that a shot.
@@TheFridayForge th-cam.com/video/xYnb8budRTA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ecDs_At_HOFXQ3h9
shelving the project for months... I feel that. Too much to explain here but a project I have yet to finish, has been put on hold a couple times because of painful moments like that.
My saw keeps pushin smoke when I put much of anything through it. How do you get it to cut so well?
Good question. If you’ve got a decent saw I would say it’s probably that the blade is dull. I used the blade that came with my dewalt for a while before spending some decent money on a blade. But it made a huge difference. So I would start with that 😊