I love how they got the mysticism of Dune out there and treated it seriously. Imagine Alia as a baby going through this with Baron Vladimir haunting her.
Won't happen. They're clearly setting up a Paul-Alia reversal in Part Three, otherwise Paul killing the Baron makes no sense. Villeneuve will likely be butchering the source material once more
@@humbleopulenceSo much salt & no spice. Denis is not doing Children of Dune. Alia’s possession by Baron can still be handled. Alia is Paul’s sister and Baron’s granddaughter after all.
@tarikbrowne Alia wasn't just a Reverend Mother able to see the female line, she was the preborn sister of a Kwisach Haderack, Paul, as was his equal as were the twins Leto & Ghanima.
Which makes me wonder if Desmond has become a sort of spice generated KH, who is possessed. Ghoula makes no sense as they still have to go through a childhood once created. Ixian tech is a definite maybe too. The KH idea could work well as against BGs, as it could then explain why they think a KH is possible, but they want one they can control. Desmond cannot be controlled but could open their eyes to how powerful a KH could be if created and controlled by the BG.
I loved the agony scene and representation of genetic memory in this episode. I liked it way more than how Jessica’s spice agony was portrayed in the movie. The image of Lila being overwhelmed by thousands upon thousands of egos of her ancestors in a dark claustrophobic but also unending corridors. Combined with the clothing design and vfx making them look like literal ghost. Just superbly weird, it visually got the idea across, and it was closer to how I pictured it while reading the books.
quite dumb, it shows the writers havent read any of the books, or they would know the genetic memory is passed up to the moment of birth, so its imposible the girl going thru the agony would remember the assassination of her ancestor, since, as the show has let perfectly clear, the sisters arent yet capable of voluntarily exchange memories with a dying sister in order to preserve that sister life knowledge as a whole. And not to mention in the dune universe the hability to murder people with your mind alone doesnt exist.
I believe the same. He only pretended to obey to lure Valya in even more....then see how she reacted when he was able to resist...and to watch the fear grow within her.
Your approval of the show is the most important one. I actually enjoyed it, they are threading with the original Herbert concepts and trying to sideline the Brian contribution. Hope that continues.
@@maciedixon3983it's true but it was short. It's definitely not expanded in the first Dune so we will see if they touch on the underlying themes like *counterfeiting a human mind*
they didnt even had the agony right.... the show has clearly stated that the sister are not yet capable of exchanging their memories right before death, so how the hell the girl going thru the agony got any memory of the asasination of her ancestor?... its ridiculous since the genetic memory transfer its cut right after birth when the umbilical is severed.
@@andressousa9006 they always had access to their own ancestral memories after the Agony... The sharing stuff was to spread genetic memory far and wide Sisters had access to multiple lines of memories.
“On a path too short”. Reminds me of the kwisatz Haderach which means “shortening of the way”. Maybe Desmond Hart is some kind of primitive flawed failed kwisatz Haderach that inspires the Bene Gesserit to undergo the breeding program.
Sounds like a direct reference to Paul Atreides to me. This is the Kwisatz Haderach prophecy. I wish someone could make a supercut of all the times in the movies that the female voices talk to Paul in visions. Because they tell the full story and directly connect to the prophecy in episode 2 of this show. At the end of Dune Part One during the Jamis fight, the voices say to Paul something like “Paul Atreides must die for Kwisatz Haderach to rise”, and then “if you take a life, you take your own” before Paul proceeds to kill him. So killing Jamis was Paul taking his own life, aka his blood life. Which directly sets him on a path to be reborn in the spice, and fully become the one. You hear the same voices again in Dune Part 2 during Paul’s spice agony. Right before he rises you hear them say “Kwisatz Haderach, climb up, rise!”. So now with the context of this show, we can imagine all of the ancestors anointing Paul as the prophesied one, as he escapes the agony. Paul is also a weapon born of war as was also said during the agony. The circumstances that allow him to become the one are the war on Arrakis. And if we take the “if you take a life, you take your own” line even further. We could infer that all the time he spent killing in the war was just a way to kill the Paul we knew in part one more and more. Making more and more room for Kwisatz Haderach to fill in. The Kwisatz Haderach (Paul) WAS a weapon born of war at the end of the day.
Solid 9/10 for me. The revelation of Bene Gesserit spies e v e r y w h e r e is chef's kiss. The other memory scene was horrific - i loved it, the parallels to Lila being possessed by her grandparent just like Alia would be 10,000 years later. I think Raquella's prophecy definitely relates to Desmond, although it could also be about Leto II. I still think ghola, or perhaps he's become a proto-Kwisatz Haderach through his experience with the worm, and his existence is what makes the Bene Gesserit reconsider their goal of a sister on the throne (maybe he's the reason they use the Gom Jabbar to sift people in the future). There seems to be something going on with Desmond's right eye throughout the episode though.
My two cents as well. This series is about reshaping Valyas H's focus on creating a pure Kwisatz Haderach (rememeber that this was a term used primarily by the Bene Gesserit. It was an old Chakobsa term that translated literally as "Shortening of the Way.") I do hope for Bene Tleilax and Golas though. Would be a great backdrop for Dune Messiah
I think the mind technique or technology used in the box definitely comes from Desmond. This hints that whatever he's got plan will fail and be whipped from history. This Corrino will not be remembered fondly.
I don’t think she died just yet bc in the previews for upcoming episodes shows her with some kind of device over her mouth with someone saying she’s close to death.
She's 100% not dead. She's comatose. The preview for Ep3 she's her on a medical bed with monitoring stuff on her face and they say, "she may never wake up". If you're watching shows on MAX you can ffw the end credits to see the previews for next week.
The words of the girl who died during the Agony showed just how ambiguous prophecies can be. To me, it sounded more like she was referring to Paul or Leto II, than Desmond Hart.
Yeah, I really doubt the visions have anything to do with Desmond Hart. The visions are all about the Tyrant; Paul and Leto II. It makes perfect sense, "born in blood" and "born in spice" makes solid sense for Paul and Leto II.
Yeah it's moving along better than I expected. The production looks really really good and the writing is good. I keep comparing this to The Acolyte and wow... what a difference. 1/3 of the budget too.
I feel like some of the acting is questionable, and the music was a bit over the top. I am enjoying the plot so far though and the set/costume design is very nice
I think that this show is much better than the Acolyte , at least , the studios have a excuse to do a women lead show with the Bene Gesserit and they've got a lot of lore to tell . Then , I know some fans don't like Bryan's work , he's a bit the star wars of dune but for now the serie is good , not perfect like Arcane
@friquite8926 I never even watched the finale just the read the recap for that amateur hour. This is decent though, there's intrigue. It looks good. I don't think THE PENGUIN will be topped anytime soon .. stange experience witnessing a masterpiece in real time. And ya what else I noticed while watching the behind the scenes that points to the FOCUS of the showrunner, writers and directors..?: All women and yet not one of them is bringing attention to that fact. They are focused on the *craft" and honoring this universe.
Thank you for what is easily the best analysis of this show I have seen. Other channels are basically just retelling the episode. You really dive deep, keep up the great work!
I rewatched the episode. In the final scene, Desmond says "Ive always wondered what you would fear" to Valya. That's something you say to someone you already know. We've already seen Dorotea show agency over Lila during the Agony. What if Dorotea is behind Desmond somehow?
Doratea tells Lila that she is her grandmother and that Lila's mother is not there in the genetic memory. That means Lila's mother is alive. Desmond having familiarity with Valya suggests he knows her. Whatever he is, Doratea's daughter/Lila's mother is the one pulling Desmond's strings
My fan theory about what Desmond Hart is (possible spoilers, unless I'm totally wrong of course. I've read all of Frank Herbert's books and most of Brian's/KJA's but not Sisterhood of Dune): ****Possible spoilers**** I think he might be a "false" Kwisatz Haderach. Remember how when Paul and others are tested with the Gom Jabar it's mentioned the reason they conduct these tests is because there have been disasters in the past when males were gifted with prescience? I think Desmond may be the first of those and explains both why he's so confused about his powers and why the Sisterhood have no clue how to deal with him or how he fits into the prophecy. Somehow, when he was swallowed by the sandworm he may have been exposed to their bile (or at least a weakened form since it wasn't drowned) and was connected to any latent potential he had, possibly through Bene Gesserit ancestors. He mentions in this episode being able to see what the Sisters cannot see and there's a lot of parallels in the structure of the episode between him and what Lila goes through as part of the Agony and Other Memory. He could still be a ghola too, but I think that's less likely since if the Tleilaxu have the genetic record of someone massively powerful like Desmond I feel like we would've seen them use and splice that into a lot more gholas and creations in the future books. As for the Sister's prophecy, I think they're still seeing the far future with Paul and the rise of the God-Emperor, but they are misinterpreting that as the threat rather than something now that threatens the Sisterhood's current existence (which would prevent Leto's Golden Path from coming to fruition and thus endangering all of humanity). In this early version of their prophecy they see the tyrant as the threat rather than threats that would block the tyrant's rise to power. They haven't mentioned the Kwisatz Haderach in this show yet so it's possible they're still flying very blind. Again, just my thoughts and a fan theory that popped into my head as I was watching the show. I take no credit if this turns out to be wrong by the very next episode. But if I'm right? I expect my check in the mail. 😎
@manasvenraina351 Thanks! I could be totally off (probably totally off), but it jumped into my head while I was watching and I'm glad the show got my noggin going.
That would be wild - I think the idea would be an entertaining one. What's this with the bile exposure and surviving that worm devouring him though? How, you think??
@justinklenk Still an unkown at this point, but maybe his awakening gave him a similar ability to neutralize poisons as the Bene Gesserit have? If one of his ancestors was a Sister they could have jumped in as his consciousness was fading and helped him maybe? As for surviving the rest of the worm eating him I'm still trying to figure that part out. 🤷♂️
To one of your points about the first episode, it's now totally apparent why they included the "space club/bar" scene as it becomes a home base for the orchestrators of the rebellion. I was totally with you on your last video in critiquing its inclusion but now it actually makes sense. Minor detail in comparison but worth pointing out.
Pretty solid episode. My only real complaint was with Valya interrogating Desmond. Specifically, that he's never asked how he did it. I can do some hand-waving at it I suppose but it seemed like an obvious thing to ask and it just wasn't. That was the only thing in the writing that bugged me this episode, it was pretty good otherwise. There's the whole "scene that went on too long" but it's HBO and well...(s)exposition is to be expected with HBO almost like it's a rule with any show from them. It was the nighclub scene from the 1stt episode essentially and I think we should just expect one per episode.
The HBO Sexposition Dump™ is a time-honored tactic to get eyes on "childish" genre fare like fantasy and sci-fi, but it always runs the risk of cheapening a production. It'd be a shame if being Hot TV Dune That Fucks™ overshadows the actual story in the discourse.
I at least appreciated that in this episode it leaned into the dune trope of women manipulating men with sex for political moves. But yeah, could have been about half the length lol
I also wanted her to ask more questions to the assassin... She knew the Duke and his woman were watching them watch him could have been more informative, imo. And when they were alone and she tried using the voice on him to end himself, maybe if she'd tried a bit harder and longer, he might have followed through.. oh well, I'm so excited for next week!
Maybe the overall arc of the show is about a reformation in the sisterhood, a process moved by external factors that moves the sisterhood itself to reforge their order/strategy/beliefs consolidating them as the Bene Gesserit that we come to see in Dune.
My theory on Dune: Prophecy, particularly Desmond. (As of Ep 2) Desmond is a herald, not a prophet. As a consequence of Sisterhood's over-reach, weaking the emperor, he has died and been reborn, strolled up to the palace, disheveled and gotten a job, then murdered the Emperor's advisor and a child-groom (representing the infantilised child the Sisterhood have turned the Emperor into). All a result of the Sisterhood. Desmond's character is complex but (being meta here) he functions an avatar of Death (change and transformation), and gets sucked into things only to a play pivotal role in balancing the scales. Also, I am picking up major Romance of the Three Kingdoms vibes, particularly the early chapters with the collapse of the Han Dynasty (Corrino) as a result of the Eunuchs (Sisterhood) corruption, causing a fanatical rebellion as a result of the peasants starving, which is eventually quelled by He Jin (Desmond), until he his eventually assassinated in the palace by the Eunuchs who are then put to death by his subordinates...leading to the collapse of the Eastern Han Dynasty and decades of civil war. Regarding him being a potential face dancer or ghola, I can't speak on that..HOWEVER. I have been reading about mind control; manufacturing identity, false memories etc. "He's telling the truth, so much as believes it." - While this may be the ladies standard manipulation to inspire doubt, it's very likely true. Desmond almost seemed lost when Valya asked about where he came from. If you are provided a false identity and false memories, you really do believe them to be true. Your identity, memories and beliefs frame your common sense experience. Imagine Kuze in Ghost in the Shell, now think of the 2017 movie and the guy who gets arrested and believes he has a kid... both represent two sides of the same coin. Connecting to Travis Fimmel's other characters, particularly Ragnar of Vikings (whose characterisation is fused with the myths of Odin) who was a highly manipulative leader, constantly concerned with fate, like Odin, fundamentally brings about the destruction of the world around him (even after his death). He is an aspect of Death, while the Sisterhood/Bene Gesseret function as aspects of Birth. Connecting to Raised with Wolves you get a similar thing, a man pretending to be someone he is not. Desmond, functionally does not serve the Imperium any more than he serves the Sisterhood, he simply recognises the bigger threat, suffers directly from their actions and is reborn anew, determined to help the underdog. Despite the mystery and complexity of his character, in the grand scheme of things, he is the serpent in the garden (devoured by Shai Hulud, the Great Worm/Wyrm), he purpose is to elevate consciousness, balance the scales. In this narrative, the Sisterhood have infantilised the Emperor, in other narratives, they would be oppressed heavily. In a standard romance, where both are equal, Desmond would be the outright villain. All in all, trying to understand is like to figure out Leonardo DiCaprio's true identity in Shutter Island: the more you look, the less sense any previous idea will make. Think like a prescient, recognise his purpose as a herald of a new dawn, an agent of death; one who brings change and transformation. PS. if you're wondering why he doesn't follow Valya's command, it could be more than technology. He simply tells the truth. Truth is not threatened by lies, lies are always threatened by truth. He recognises that everything she says is a manipulation designed to disempower and destroy you, he fully understands this and her motivations. Consider that the power is not in technology, but understanding. Most people hear Valya, Desmond can see her. The show is being told from the perspective of a Harkonnen that says their greatest weapon is the lie. The show is told from the perspective of the Third Reich, The Sith, Voldemort and Wyrmtongue. If you can't see that, you'll not recognise the story is being told from the perspective of the villains. Peace, prosperity and prescience.
Excellent take however I have to disagree with the idea do this story being told from the perspective of the villains, because I don’t believe Dune has villains or heros
It looks awesome and I agree FH would have liked seeing his work with so much production value. That said some important details of the source material aren't being respected very well so far. Namely how the girl shouldn't have had memories of her mother's death because that's not how genetic memory works... memories are only passed up until the point of conception in Dune lore. This weird fantasy interpretation creates the potential for a LOT of plotholes. Villeneuve made the same mistake with prescience in Dune Part 2 and it's diluting the sci-fi too much.
@@spacewombat4569 Lila's Mother was not even present in the memories. It was her grandmother. Tula is a master manipulator just like Valya. Don't fall for her sensitive motherly attitude. Her first lesson to acolytes was literally about "lies". She probably lied to Lila about how she could find her mother in her memories so that she would "willingly" undergo the Agony.
@Christo_Trismegistus that was her grandmother. She even days somthing about how her mother isn't here and is that what they told you to get you to do this.
If you wait until the end credits of the episode the trailer for the next episode plays. And there was a clip of Lila with some kind of breathing apparatus on like maybe she’s in a coma? And you see Tula with a cup of golden liquid. Possibly spice to try and save her? Maybe this also leads them to using spice instead of Rossack poison. Which would cause another dynamic if she lives where Lila knows that her great grandmother was killed by the rev mother
Could Desmond be the kwisatz haderach that the tleilaxu mention creating in Dune: Messiah? I distinctly remember skytale mentioning that the tleilaxu created their own kwisatz haderach at one point but that it went mad and took its own life. Desmond definitely seems to be troubled by his powers, possibly in pain when using them. Is he a proto-kwisatz haderach?
Love it... I can't help but think the WHOLE point of this show is to condition us to the idea's of the Tleilaxu, ghola's and face dancers in time for the next DV film (and the return of Duncan) ... they can explain a LOT in the 6 episodes of this series that the film won't have the time to cover. I'm also hoping we get some sort of introduction to the navigators, or at least the idea of them, in the series... that, too, could be a shock for new Dune fans if they haven't read the books... I think a lot of thought has been put into the Dune franchise, and future-proofing for more films, more series is great.
5:43 Wait, isn't that a reference to Paul Atreites? I thought it meant born as a human, reborn as the messiah with spicy eyes, coming from a war waged against his father, that made him grow up before he was ready for the burden of a galactic empire.
I enjoyed this episode more than the first. I like how things are moving forward and I am also very intrigued by the mystery of Desmond and his abilities. The fact he can resist the Voice really surprised me and excited me to see what's gonna happen next. I wonder what is gonna happen to Kieran because while he wants to help the Rebellion he has feelings for the Princess, and will he get outed or find a way to keep what he's been up to a secret? I wonder how things are gonna turn out for him since, unless we meet other Atreides offspring we have to assume the line of House Atreides that goes to Duke Leto and Paul goes through Kieran.
vorian atreides was basically genghis khan in this universe, his spawn is everywhere, he anchor beings the timeline. the house of atreides main characters the whole series, now newly established at caladan. also, lila is a descendant of reverend mother raquella who was the granddaughter of vorian atreides.
There has to be many other Atreides. They are a ruling house in the Dune universe, the lord of a ruling house does not work as a servant in the Emperor's household, Keiran will be some distant cousin of the actual ruling part of House Atreides.
I can’t believe I didn’t think of this before but I think this theory may be right so POSSIBLE SPOILERS AHEAD…in the books the sorceresses of Rossak who inspired Raquella to found the sisterhood, and much of the sorceresses themselves joined the sisterhood, had the ability to boil the thinking machine’s brains with their telekinetic abilities. I think Desmond is the son of one of the last remaining sorceresses which means he actually does have this telekinetic ability. I think not only him but Jenn has this ability as well and she was actually the one to kill Kasha. Jenn is saying more and more that insinuates she does not agree with The Sisterhood and is probably working as an agent from the inside with Desmond. Majority of the sorceresses joined the The Sisterhood in very early days, and unfortunately much of them died off but I believe some never joined and remained on Rossak. Perhaps this is where Desmond came from and perhaps Jenn is related to him.
Just because the Tleilaxu make gholas from corpses doesn't mean that they can't also make a clone from a living person, or make multiple clones. Maybe Desmond is just a regular clone. And there could be more than one.
Yes it would be very interesting, but one thing doesn't sit right with me - how could she see him or sense him? Even Paul didn't know that he would have a son, he was that powerful, so how could one of the first reverend mother see it?
@@wlodarka fair enough, in the end I think the tyrant part is going to be a vague reference and Arafel, as Leto II forsaw it, must be a prescient machine of some sort.
Something about Constantine is setting off alarm bells. Ynez tells a story about rebels kidnapping her and Constantine when they were children. Their father covered it up and Constantine never talks about it - could he have been compromised somehow? Constantine was in the palace when the child burned and earlier he was ALSO in the house of the BG where Kasha later died - could he have planted a device somewhere which activated when she was near? Perhaps working in conjunction with Desmond (with or without his knowledge) or even using him as a scapegoat. He definitely let that information about Desmond slip on purpose. There's more to him and he's being played as a careless secondary character to lull us into dismissing him.
@maciedixon3983 It's kinda up to the Duke or emperor. Duke Atredies specifically recognized Paul as his heir and didn't marry any other suitable wife even wishing he had married Jessica. As for this show, my guess on why the prince isn't in line is probably a combination of BG manipulation for the correct bloodline (his daughter is but the son isn't) and his wife seems like she'd give him a pretty big fight if her daughter wasn't above his bastard son.
"The key to the reckoning is one born twice: " That sounds like Paul. Isnt the reckoning going to happen in Letos' time? The discrption is of being born twice, the second time through what might be spice agony. Paul did not become the shortening of the way ( Kwisatz Haderach) until he endured the spice agony.
great video! my fiance got me obsessed with Dune - I've read the 1st 3 by frank - and I'm loving prophecy... really like the way you did your review - i have so many questions! I'm absolutely hooked, can't wait for next week. notifications are on!
Kwisatz Haderach literally means, "The shortening of the way"....And the Other Memory says, "A path too short" ... i.e., the Kwisatz Haderach arrived earlier than expected (Paul).
12:00 I might be mistaken but I also believe it's stated in the original books by frank herbert that the Voice cannot override the most primal instinct of humans, like you can order someone to give you their gun but not to shoot themselves
The movies made the Voice way too strong. It's Jedi mind control, only worse. The show might follow in those footsteps. If the mother superior wanted to kill him, she could just have stroke his hand when he was resisting, pushing the blade into the throat. Or more in line with the books, she could have poisoned him, or used a mix of influences, lies and Voice to have a few palace guards do the dirty work for her. Yes the Voice is strong, but in a very short or very oblique way. Jessica couldn't have survived their desert trip if the Harkonens soldiers weren't undisciplined rapey thugs in the first place, and she spent probably a few hours studying and listening to them.
Given that Paul was able to train a Duncan ghola to resist the voice in Messiah, I'm taking that scene as the final clue that Desmond is, in fact, a ghola (or gholas, given the miraculous double and identical assassinations on different worlds.) I don't think anything else makes sense, and it's a pretty cool way to introduce the concept, IMO. I also like the idea that all of this is maybe an ouroboros with a touchpoint in the distant future instigated by the God Emperor himself.
It's official I love this show. So much in this episode love that I think this is the first time we've ever really got to see what it's like when someone accesses their ancestral memories. Beautifully done. I especially love that how when you awaken those ancestral memories if there's anything people have told you that are not quite true you're going to discover them.😊😊
I like the show too. My thought on "path too short" - it is reference to golden path. Like someone wants the same thing as Bene Gesserit, but wants to take a shortcut.
I absolutely love what Desmond says to Valya after he resists The Voice. “I always wondered what your greatest fear would be. Now I have seen it. It’s not that you’re afraid no one will listen to you. You’re afraid that they’ll hear you… *and just not care.*” That line goes so freaking hard, like my God. A unilateral “f you” to not just Valya but to the entire Bene Gesserit Sisterhood. Absolutely peak.
I'm really enjoying these reviews and dont mind the spoiler effects. I am waiting for the entire series to be recorded on my Foxtel, then binge watch the series at once. Love your work as always Quinn 😁👍
I love hearing your thoughts on this series, your videos on Dune series are what gave me a greater appreciation and understanding of the plot, world, and themes of Frank Herbert’s original 6. It’s interesting to watch this show not only through the lens of Dune fan but a Dune SCHOLAR haha. I’m digging the show a lot
First, I want to say your breakdowns of this show so far are fantastic. I really appreciate your deeper insight on this. You're prediction last week about Desmond being a Ghola is one I'm all in on, if they decide to go that route. The story about the worm taking his eye and replacing it with a gift seems a bit far-fetched to me... But he may also not know he is a Ghola, so there's that ... Personally, I loved this episode. It really did a good job of showing, not telling, when it came to the agony. I love that we got to see a literal version of the struggle Alia deals with in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. The deeper cost of prescience and seeing an agony that didn't go well was really good. It's clear the BG are still finding their way as a culture, and it's interesting to see these early steps to what they become later on. Some background: I've only read the first 4 Frank Herbert dune books so far. But this show is really motivating me to dust off 5 and 6, since the BG have a much bigger role in that era of the story. Loving the show and loving your breakdowns! Thank you!!
I'm cautiously optimistic about the show so far. It strikes me that part of what is being set up for the BGs is that they are uncovering this prophecy which actually speaks about Leto II and they are mistaking it as referring to their current situation. Realizing that mistake seems like the thing they must learn to reorient their objectives and priorities toward their Dune-time-period institutional structure. Alternately (or in parallel), it may be a warning about either the final assault of the Honored Matres that cripples the sisterhood, or even about the threat of a return of the thinking machines that at least the Brian/Kevin retcon of books 7 and 8 imply Leto was trying to prepare against. Either way, I think they are mistaking a project about a distant threat as describing their immediate threat and they have to figure that out.
The sisters’ belief that arafel is upon them could parallel a tendency I personally have observed among evangelical Christian’s sects to believe that the end times are constantly upon them. It’s a pattern they’ve displayed over 100 years pointing to a certain ‘current’ event and claiming it fulfills a particular prophecy. It’s possible the sisters are making a similar mistake with Raquella’s words. They think it is happening in their time when it can just as easily be referring to events 10,000 years in the future. I also wonder if “a path too short” isn’t a hint towards humanity as a whole being on the wrong path that would be cut short by prescient AI. This would lend towards Quinn’s theory that Desmond is a tool being used by Leto II to manipulate events in the past that will aid him in setting up The Golden Path. Really enjoying that they are dragging the revelations out slowly. It makes for fun theorycrafting!
My current theory is that Desmond Hart actually didn’t kill Reverend Mother Kasha. How would his power work across the galaxy. The emperor made A point to mention this. But….if there was a second ghola….? I think the acolyte Jen killed Kasha, and is a also a ghola with the same ability as Hart
Me and my dad are obsessed with Dune. We love watching your analysis right after the episode. Thank you for your work and passion for the saga. We can’t wait for next week. ❤
Something i dont see anyone talking about is Lila's ancestry. She was told that her mother died giving birth ... But grandmother (Dorotea) said during the agony that her mother "is not here." Which makes me think mothers death is a lie. If thats true, this is important. When offered a way out by Tula, "We'll just have to look for other options" ... Perhaps Lila isnt the only one they could attempt Agony with. Mother could be out there. Perhaps hard to reach, or someone who has gone rogue / anti Bene Gesseret (after learning about Valya killing Dorotea?). Or ... And this would be nuts ... But Mikaela, the sister assigned to the rebels, is her mother? I suspect Raquella's line will continue to be central to the show, and is perhaps the one rhing Brian Herbert wanted to influence (for better or worse).
@SPIKESPIEGEL1969 two thoughts: 1) is the Spice Agony identical to this primitive form with the Rossack poison? 2) What could it mean for Dorotea to say "your mother isn't here" then? The mother is dead but not present among the vast sea of past generations because ...? I really don't think you bother to write that in the script without it hinting to some larger purpose.
I'm thinking Desmond is the ancestor of the Fenrings. Either he'll change his name (to Fenring) or have children with someone (and they'll be named Fenring) who will stick very close to the emperor until the events of Dune
one thing unmentioned: why did the souls during the spice agony scene look like literal face dancers? That was kinda out there, but not sure why at all.
Thanks as always for your thoughts and input. I liked this episode, it feels like they are trying to build the plot strands, intrigue, conflict points. All with a relatively modest budget. I fear this will not find a mainstream audience and remain a Curate's egg.
Given Scytale mentioned they made one between book 1 and 2 and he killed himself the show runners might want to borrow this. Villeneuve doesn't like too much exposition so he will probably not include this info in Messiah
@@MS-ii1sv yeah I was thinking the same thing. I had another read of the conspiracy chapter in Messiah and Scytale is vague on when they did their experiments. ‘We once bred a kwisatz haderach of our own’ and ‘we dabbled in various pure essences, pure good and pure evil…’
@@LiamBoyce-z1k If I'm not mistaken this show takes place like 80 years after the Butlerian Jihad. Bene Gesserit, mentats and navigators all happen in response to the moratorium on computers. Prior to that they relied on machines for almost everything so how developed are all of these new methods after a mere 80 years? 80 years can be a long time in technology but in evolutionary terms it is nothing.
Happy about the agony scene and how they showed the possibility of possesion. I liked Desmond and him facing Alya. I just don't like Constantine Corrino. So far he is there to be handsome and very dumb by leaking info. I also don't like the Atreides but Im happy the rebellion is going down since it felt awkward but Im happy that the Fremen is actually a Bene Gesserit, nice touch.
There's a great thematic irony here: Valya sets herself against the inflexibility of the zealots when she was young. Now she finds herself unwilling to disrupt a plan long in the making, blindsiding her and costing her Kasha's life and ultimately access to the Emperor.
The first line of the message is like a riddle or a witches prophecy/curse . The rest of it sounds like a Haiku poem with the first line acting like the Kireji. i wonder what 'Revenant' refers to and what exactly is the 'Reckoning'? Just by the name of the show alone, I assumed the prophecy is the discovery of the idea of the Kwisatz Haderach.
One question raised in this episode: Did/does Tula know that Valya murdered Theodora? Why would Tula lie to Lila about the circumstances of her mother's death if she knew full well that there was a good chance she was about to "meet" her mother and learn otherwise? Lila knew what Valya had done for the few moments she survived the agony, but did any other living person know?
Lila doesn't appear to be dead basing upon the preview for episode 3. I'm assuming she's in some sort of comatose state, or a state of near-death. I think the spice melange will be used in some way based on that scene where she's holding a small glass container with what appears to be spice mixed into some sort of solution.
It sounds like they’re purposely confusing the prophecy with Desmond and the god emperor. Like the current bene geserit think the prophecy refers to Desmond, then end up having a revelation that the prophecy refers to the god emperor. Also curious if Desmond is going to be the first ixian kwizats attempt and they’re testing his abilities by sending him out into the imperium
Never heard of Dune before the Villeneuve movies, never read the books, have watched hours of content on this channel. That being said, I find myself constantly craving more of the Dune universe and this has currently satisfied that craving lol. It’s early but I think these first 2 episodes are very promising. This stuff is fascinating.
"Born twice: once in blood, once in spice": sounds like it could be any future reverend mother on Arakis (or among the Bene Gesserit once spice serves as the substance of choice for the Agony) OR to Paul OR to Leto II. "A revenant full of scars" (sounds like Leto II but could conceivably refer to Paul) OR could refer to a ghola (albeit one with scars). "A weapon of war": very cryptic though there's the intriguing parallel to Ghanima (the "spoils of war"). "On a path too short": obvious parallel to the "shortening of the way" (aka Kwisatz Hadderach", though the "too short" is more suggestive of Paul. My conclusion: the showrunners are setting out a thick carpet of mist ("arafel", if you prefer) with tons of red herrings - or perhaps that should be "blue herrings" - to get viewers to look beyond the immediate hint that the "prophesy" is about Demond Hart.
My theory of Desmond Hart is a time traveling Duncan Ghola is gaining steam! Even his looks remind me of Jason Mamoa and the many art pieces of Duncan.
Your first video about Desmond being a ghola from the Tleilax stuck with me. I think it would make sense to introduce this here so they can have it in everything else. Very interesting to world build in the cinematic sphere since we can get Duncan back and not spend a bunch of time on it.
Episode 2 was genuinely fantastic. Not a single moment that wasn’t intrigue or drama. It even dips into trippy horror. Very excited for the rest of the series. The season premiere was just ok but this episode was phenomenal
Regarding resisting the voice, at 12:39 I actually think he was toying with her.... he was acting that he was under her control, when in fact she had no power over him
Desmond came straight from last episode of Raised by wolves 😂
Right?! Lol thats all I could think of
navigating the galaxy in his space ship builted by Floki
Travis is a good darn actor.
Yep...
Dude I said the same thing! 😂
I love how they got the mysticism of Dune out there and treated it seriously. Imagine Alia as a baby going through this with Baron Vladimir haunting her.
Won't happen. They're clearly setting up a Paul-Alia reversal in Part Three, otherwise Paul killing the Baron makes no sense. Villeneuve will likely be butchering the source material once more
@@humbleopulenceSo much salt & no spice. Denis is not doing Children of Dune. Alia’s possession by Baron can still be handled. Alia is Paul’s sister and Baron’s granddaughter after all.
Alia would only see female ancestors
@tarikbrowne Alia wasn't just a Reverend Mother able to see the female line, she was the preborn sister of a Kwisach Haderack, Paul, as was his equal as were the twins Leto & Ghanima.
Which makes me wonder if Desmond has become a sort of spice generated KH, who is possessed.
Ghoula makes no sense as they still have to go through a childhood once created.
Ixian tech is a definite maybe too.
The KH idea could work well as against BGs, as it could then explain why they think a KH is possible, but they want one they can control. Desmond cannot be controlled but could open their eyes to how powerful a KH could be if created and controlled by the BG.
I loved the agony scene and representation of genetic memory in this episode. I liked it way more than how Jessica’s spice agony was portrayed in the movie. The image of Lila being overwhelmed by thousands upon thousands of egos of her ancestors in a dark claustrophobic but also unending corridors. Combined with the clothing design and vfx making them look like literal ghost. Just superbly weird, it visually got the idea across, and it was closer to how I pictured it while reading the books.
quite dumb, it shows the writers havent read any of the books, or they would know the genetic memory is passed up to the moment of birth, so its imposible the girl going thru the agony would remember the assassination of her ancestor, since, as the show has let perfectly clear, the sisters arent yet capable of voluntarily exchange memories with a dying sister in order to preserve that sister life knowledge as a whole. And not to mention in the dune universe the hability to murder people with your mind alone doesnt exist.
It is two different chemicals so the process looks different. That was more harrowing I could see why they changed to worm piss.
I think Desmond just played along with Valya. He could resist the voice from the get go.
Yes, I was thinking that too. He just pretended to obey.
Same. That scene was so well executed
I believe the same. He only pretended to obey to lure Valya in even more....then see how she reacted when he was able to resist...and to watch the fear grow within her.
Yep, just to mess with her a little bit.
Also my same thought watching
so insane how big this channel is now compared to 2016.. much luv, glad to see the success you have found
Well said!
💯True. I remember when Quinn was just a friendly, knowledgeable voice. Talking about Dune when nobody else was.
The horror elements in this episode were really well done. I was intrigued by that part.
the spider-like Benegesserit crawling along the columns in Lila’s Agony trial was amazing, gave me chills.
@@shotty.Is "chills" all anyone can say in youtube comments about shows?
@@TheManWhoCan-y6u its better than saying "it gave me scurvy"
Your approval of the show is the most important one. I actually enjoyed it, they are threading with the original Herbert concepts and trying to sideline the Brian contribution. Hope that continues.
That was my biggest concern
Minus the butlerian jihad being more Brian
@@maciedixon3983it's true but it was short. It's definitely not expanded in the first Dune so we will see if they touch on the underlying themes like *counterfeiting a human mind*
they didnt even had the agony right.... the show has clearly stated that the sister are not yet capable of exchanging their memories right before death, so how the hell the girl going thru the agony got any memory of the asasination of her ancestor?... its ridiculous since the genetic memory transfer its cut right after birth when the umbilical is severed.
@@andressousa9006 they always had access to their own ancestral memories after the Agony... The sharing stuff was to spread genetic memory far and wide Sisters had access to multiple lines of memories.
“On a path too short”. Reminds me of the kwisatz Haderach which means “shortening of the way”. Maybe Desmond Hart is some kind of primitive flawed failed kwisatz Haderach that inspires the Bene Gesserit to undergo the breeding program.
@@awesomehpt8938 No. You’re just desperately trying to fill in gaps that aren’t even there, in a show/story that shouldn’t be here.
They're already doing the breeding program.
@@MrEnjoivolcom1 the goals of the program could evolve over time
The Proto KH!
@@MinhFong-p6m Lame.
"Born once in blood and once in spice" sounds like surviving the Agony of Spice to me...
Sounds like a direct reference to Paul Atreides to me. This is the Kwisatz Haderach prophecy. I wish someone could make a supercut of all the times in the movies that the female voices talk to Paul in visions. Because they tell the full story and directly connect to the prophecy in episode 2 of this show. At the end of Dune Part One during the Jamis fight, the voices say to Paul something like “Paul Atreides must die for Kwisatz Haderach to rise”, and then “if you take a life, you take your own” before Paul proceeds to kill him. So killing Jamis was Paul taking his own life, aka his blood life. Which directly sets him on a path to be reborn in the spice, and fully become the one. You hear the same voices again in Dune Part 2 during Paul’s spice agony. Right before he rises you hear them say “Kwisatz Haderach, climb up, rise!”. So now with the context of this show, we can imagine all of the ancestors anointing Paul as the prophesied one, as he escapes the agony.
Paul is also a weapon born of war as was also said during the agony. The circumstances that allow him to become the one are the war on Arrakis. And if we take the “if you take a life, you take your own” line even further. We could infer that all the time he spent killing in the war was just a way to kill the Paul we knew in part one more and more. Making more and more room for Kwisatz Haderach to fill in. The Kwisatz Haderach (Paul) WAS a weapon born of war at the end of the day.
I kinda perceived it as pointing at Desmond Hart. The one who was born as a human and reborn after being swallowed by Shai Hulud.
It was about Desmond.
@@king_supreme1102maybe you should create a video. You can use this same concept. Voiceovers with snippets of the series and books
@EMPERORSPROTECTION-TERRA4LIFE Well, it can be interpreted as being about Paul and/or Leto II. But an easy in-show answer is Desmond.
Solid 9/10 for me. The revelation of Bene Gesserit spies e v e r y w h e r e is chef's kiss. The other memory scene was horrific - i loved it, the parallels to Lila being possessed by her grandparent just like Alia would be 10,000 years later. I think Raquella's prophecy definitely relates to Desmond, although it could also be about Leto II. I still think ghola, or perhaps he's become a proto-Kwisatz Haderach through his experience with the worm, and his existence is what makes the Bene Gesserit reconsider their goal of a sister on the throne (maybe he's the reason they use the Gom Jabbar to sift people in the future). There seems to be something going on with Desmond's right eye throughout the episode though.
My two cents as well. This series is about reshaping Valyas H's focus on creating a pure Kwisatz Haderach (rememeber that this was a term used primarily by the Bene Gesserit. It was an old Chakobsa term that translated literally as "Shortening of the Way.")
I do hope for Bene Tleilax and Golas though. Would be a great backdrop for Dune Messiah
I think the mind technique or technology used in the box definitely comes from Desmond. This hints that whatever he's got plan will fail and be whipped from history. This Corrino will not be remembered fondly.
I don’t think she died just yet bc in the previews for upcoming episodes shows her with some kind of device over her mouth with someone saying she’s close to death.
She's 100% not dead. She's comatose. The preview for Ep3 she's her on a medical bed with monitoring stuff on her face and they say, "she may never wake up".
If you're watching shows on MAX you can ffw the end credits to see the previews for next week.
Lila?
Like some Chosen One after his hubris left him burning on the shores of a volcanic planet 😉
Yes. She is seemingly catatonic currently. They show the Sisters attempting to “revive” her
I hope not her story arc and character is drawing to any scene she’s in . Very surprised how good this has been imo
The words of the girl who died during the Agony showed just how ambiguous prophecies can be. To me, it sounded more like she was referring to Paul or Leto II, than Desmond Hart.
Agreed
Out of all the people covering this, your analysis is best and your references show true understanding of source material.
"Path too short", sounds like the "Shortening Of The Way" a reference to the Kwizatz Haderach
Thought the same
Thought it could be a reference to Paul's aborted attempt at the golden path
Yeah, I really doubt the visions have anything to do with Desmond Hart. The visions are all about the Tyrant; Paul and Leto II. It makes perfect sense, "born in blood" and "born in spice" makes solid sense for Paul and Leto II.
Yeah it's moving along better than I expected. The production looks really really good and the writing is good. I keep comparing this to The Acolyte and wow... what a difference. 1/3 of the budget too.
Tell me why I was so excited the Acolyte when it was first announced only to be so disappointed ☹️
I feel like some of the acting is questionable, and the music was a bit over the top. I am enjoying the plot so far though and the set/costume design is very nice
It’s not perfect. Could have done without the bar scene and the jihad was more Brian then frank. Like it otherwise
I think that this show is much better than the Acolyte , at least , the studios have a excuse to do a women lead show with the Bene Gesserit and they've got a lot of lore to tell . Then , I know some fans don't like Bryan's work , he's a bit the star wars of dune but for now the serie is good , not perfect like Arcane
@friquite8926 I never even watched the finale just the read the recap for that amateur hour. This is decent though, there's intrigue. It looks good.
I don't think THE PENGUIN will be topped anytime soon .. stange experience witnessing a masterpiece in real time. And ya what else I noticed while watching the behind the scenes that points to the FOCUS of the showrunner, writers and directors..?: All women and yet not one of them is bringing attention to that fact. They are focused on the *craft" and honoring this universe.
Thank you for what is easily the best analysis of this show I have seen. Other channels are basically just retelling the episode. You really dive deep, keep up the great work!
I rewatched the episode. In the final scene, Desmond says "Ive always wondered what you would fear" to Valya. That's something you say to someone you already know. We've already seen Dorotea show agency over Lila during the Agony. What if Dorotea is behind Desmond somehow?
Doratea tells Lila that she is her grandmother and that Lila's mother is not there in the genetic memory. That means Lila's mother is alive. Desmond having familiarity with Valya suggests he knows her. Whatever he is, Doratea's daughter/Lila's mother is the one pulling Desmond's strings
My theory is Lila's mother is the sister undercover with the rebels. She is the one with the Eyes of Ebad.
@@eshowomanShe's seems to be, like... maybe 5 years older than Lila, 10 at the most?
Desmon Heart was in 'Raised By Wolves' (good series suck it ended) and had that same crazy insane look about him.
Agreed, I was disappointed that series was not further developed 😢
I think Desmond is an early Ghola or Facedancer.
My fan theory about what Desmond Hart is (possible spoilers, unless I'm totally wrong of course. I've read all of Frank Herbert's books and most of Brian's/KJA's but not Sisterhood of Dune):
****Possible spoilers****
I think he might be a "false" Kwisatz Haderach. Remember how when Paul and others are tested with the Gom Jabar it's mentioned the reason they conduct these tests is because there have been disasters in the past when males were gifted with prescience? I think Desmond may be the first of those and explains both why he's so confused about his powers and why the Sisterhood have no clue how to deal with him or how he fits into the prophecy. Somehow, when he was swallowed by the sandworm he may have been exposed to their bile (or at least a weakened form since it wasn't drowned) and was connected to any latent potential he had, possibly through Bene Gesserit ancestors. He mentions in this episode being able to see what the Sisters cannot see and there's a lot of parallels in the structure of the episode between him and what Lila goes through as part of the Agony and Other Memory.
He could still be a ghola too, but I think that's less likely since if the Tleilaxu have the genetic record of someone massively powerful like Desmond I feel like we would've seen them use and splice that into a lot more gholas and creations in the future books. As for the Sister's prophecy, I think they're still seeing the far future with Paul and the rise of the God-Emperor, but they are misinterpreting that as the threat rather than something now that threatens the Sisterhood's current existence (which would prevent Leto's Golden Path from coming to fruition and thus endangering all of humanity). In this early version of their prophecy they see the tyrant as the threat rather than threats that would block the tyrant's rise to power. They haven't mentioned the Kwisatz Haderach in this show yet so it's possible they're still flying very blind.
Again, just my thoughts and a fan theory that popped into my head as I was watching the show. I take no credit if this turns out to be wrong by the very next episode. But if I'm right? I expect my check in the mail. 😎
Interesting theory.
@manasvenraina351 Thanks! I could be totally off (probably totally off), but it jumped into my head while I was watching and I'm glad the show got my noggin going.
That would be wild - I think the idea would be an entertaining one.
What's this with the bile exposure and surviving that worm devouring him though? How, you think??
@justinklenk Still an unkown at this point, but maybe his awakening gave him a similar ability to neutralize poisons as the Bene Gesserit have? If one of his ancestors was a Sister they could have jumped in as his consciousness was fading and helped him maybe? As for surviving the rest of the worm eating him I'm still trying to figure that part out. 🤷♂️
if Desmond had been poisoned by the sand worm water of life, he should get Eyes of Ibad, don't you think ?
To one of your points about the first episode, it's now totally apparent why they included the "space club/bar" scene as it becomes a home base for the orchestrators of the rebellion. I was totally with you on your last video in critiquing its inclusion but now it actually makes sense. Minor detail in comparison but worth pointing out.
Pretty solid episode. My only real complaint was with Valya interrogating Desmond. Specifically, that he's never asked how he did it. I can do some hand-waving at it I suppose but it seemed like an obvious thing to ask and it just wasn't. That was the only thing in the writing that bugged me this episode, it was pretty good otherwise.
There's the whole "scene that went on too long" but it's HBO and well...(s)exposition is to be expected with HBO almost like it's a rule with any show from them. It was the nighclub scene from the 1stt episode essentially and I think we should just expect one per episode.
The HBO Sexposition Dump™ is a time-honored tactic to get eyes on "childish" genre fare like fantasy and sci-fi, but it always runs the risk of cheapening a production. It'd be a shame if being Hot TV Dune That Fucks™ overshadows the actual story in the discourse.
@@QBG There should be more fucking in every genre. What else are we paying all these pretty people for?
I at least appreciated that in this episode it leaned into the dune trope of women manipulating men with sex for political moves. But yeah, could have been about half the length lol
Foot jobs. Very honorable yes. Whole dialogue Coulda been done in 1\10 the time.
I also wanted her to ask more questions to the assassin... She knew the Duke and his woman were watching them watch him could have been more informative, imo. And when they were alone and she tried using the voice on him to end himself, maybe if she'd tried a bit harder and longer, he might have followed through.. oh well, I'm so excited for next week!
Glad to know each episode will last an extra 20-25 minutes, thanks Quinn
Maybe the overall arc of the show is about a reformation in the sisterhood, a process moved by external factors that moves the sisterhood itself to reforge their order/strategy/beliefs consolidating them as the Bene Gesserit that we come to see in Dune.
My theory on Dune: Prophecy, particularly Desmond. (As of Ep 2)
Desmond is a herald, not a prophet. As a consequence of Sisterhood's over-reach, weaking the emperor, he has died and been reborn, strolled up to the palace, disheveled and gotten a job, then murdered the Emperor's advisor and a child-groom (representing the infantilised child the Sisterhood have turned the Emperor into). All a result of the Sisterhood. Desmond's character is complex but (being meta here) he functions an avatar of Death (change and transformation), and gets sucked into things only to a play pivotal role in balancing the scales.
Also, I am picking up major Romance of the Three Kingdoms vibes, particularly the early chapters with the collapse of the Han Dynasty (Corrino) as a result of the Eunuchs (Sisterhood) corruption, causing a fanatical rebellion as a result of the peasants starving, which is eventually quelled by He Jin (Desmond), until he his eventually assassinated in the palace by the Eunuchs who are then put to death by his subordinates...leading to the collapse of the Eastern Han Dynasty and decades of civil war.
Regarding him being a potential face dancer or ghola, I can't speak on that..HOWEVER. I have been reading about mind control; manufacturing identity, false memories etc. "He's telling the truth, so much as believes it." - While this may be the ladies standard manipulation to inspire doubt, it's very likely true. Desmond almost seemed lost when Valya asked about where he came from. If you are provided a false identity and false memories, you really do believe them to be true. Your identity, memories and beliefs frame your common sense experience. Imagine Kuze in Ghost in the Shell, now think of the 2017 movie and the guy who gets arrested and believes he has a kid... both represent two sides of the same coin.
Connecting to Travis Fimmel's other characters, particularly Ragnar of Vikings (whose characterisation is fused with the myths of Odin) who was a highly manipulative leader, constantly concerned with fate, like Odin, fundamentally brings about the destruction of the world around him (even after his death). He is an aspect of Death, while the Sisterhood/Bene Gesseret function as aspects of Birth. Connecting to Raised with Wolves you get a similar thing, a man pretending to be someone he is not.
Desmond, functionally does not serve the Imperium any more than he serves the Sisterhood, he simply recognises the bigger threat, suffers directly from their actions and is reborn anew, determined to help the underdog. Despite the mystery and complexity of his character, in the grand scheme of things, he is the serpent in the garden (devoured by Shai Hulud, the Great Worm/Wyrm), he purpose is to elevate consciousness, balance the scales. In this narrative, the Sisterhood have infantilised the Emperor, in other narratives, they would be oppressed heavily. In a standard romance, where both are equal, Desmond would be the outright villain.
All in all, trying to understand is like to figure out Leonardo DiCaprio's true identity in Shutter Island: the more you look, the less sense any previous idea will make. Think like a prescient, recognise his purpose as a herald of a new dawn, an agent of death; one who brings change and transformation.
PS. if you're wondering why he doesn't follow Valya's command, it could be more than technology. He simply tells the truth. Truth is not threatened by lies, lies are always threatened by truth. He recognises that everything she says is a manipulation designed to disempower and destroy you, he fully understands this and her motivations. Consider that the power is not in technology, but understanding. Most people hear Valya, Desmond can see her. The show is being told from the perspective of a Harkonnen that says their greatest weapon is the lie. The show is told from the perspective of the Third Reich, The Sith, Voldemort and Wyrmtongue. If you can't see that, you'll not recognise the story is being told from the perspective of the villains.
Peace, prosperity and prescience.
you crammed in so many references to other series
As a fellow nerd, this is the best response.
Excellent take however I have to disagree with the idea do this story being told from the perspective of the villains, because I don’t believe Dune has villains or heros
Frank Herbert would be proud of this. They absolutely nailed Spice Agony and Other Memories' Possession.
It looks awesome and I agree FH would have liked seeing his work with so much production value. That said some important details of the source material aren't being respected very well so far. Namely how the girl shouldn't have had memories of her mother's death because that's not how genetic memory works... memories are only passed up until the point of conception in Dune lore.
This weird fantasy interpretation creates the potential for a LOT of plotholes. Villeneuve made the same mistake with prescience in Dune Part 2 and it's diluting the sci-fi too much.
@@spacewombat4569 Lila's Mother was not even present in the memories. It was her grandmother.
Tula is a master manipulator just like Valya. Don't fall for her sensitive motherly attitude. Her first lesson to acolytes was literally about "lies". She probably lied to Lila about how she could find her mother in her memories so that she would "willingly" undergo the Agony.
They literally showed her mother being murdered in the memory
@@Christo_Trismegistus Doratea is her Grandmother.
@Christo_Trismegistus that was her grandmother. She even days somthing about how her mother isn't here and is that what they told you to get you to do this.
If you wait until the end credits of the episode the trailer for the next episode plays. And there was a clip of Lila with some kind of breathing apparatus on like maybe she’s in a coma? And you see Tula with a cup of golden liquid. Possibly spice to try and save her? Maybe this also leads them to using spice instead of Rossack poison. Which would cause another dynamic if she lives where Lila knows that her great grandmother was killed by the rev mother
i just posted a similiar thought :). your post is better written . :)
@@jasons673 aw, thanks. i suck at writing. In case you're being sarcastic: haha XD
I can't help thinking that security at the palace is atrocious.
Could Desmond be the kwisatz haderach that the tleilaxu mention creating in Dune: Messiah? I distinctly remember skytale mentioning that the tleilaxu created their own kwisatz haderach at one point but that it went mad and took its own life. Desmond definitely seems to be troubled by his powers, possibly in pain when using them. Is he a proto-kwisatz haderach?
Love it...
I can't help but think the WHOLE point of this show is to condition us to the idea's of the Tleilaxu, ghola's and face dancers in time for the next DV film (and the return of Duncan) ... they can explain a LOT in the 6 episodes of this series that the film won't have the time to cover.
I'm also hoping we get some sort of introduction to the navigators, or at least the idea of them, in the series... that, too, could be a shock for new Dune fans if they haven't read the books... I think a lot of thought has been put into the Dune franchise, and future-proofing for more films, more series is great.
5:43 Wait, isn't that a reference to Paul Atreites?
I thought it meant born as a human, reborn as the messiah with spicy eyes, coming from a war waged against his father, that made him grow up before he was ready for the burden of a galactic empire.
I enjoyed this episode more than the first. I like how things are moving forward and I am also very intrigued by the mystery of Desmond and his abilities. The fact he can resist the Voice really surprised me and excited me to see what's gonna happen next. I wonder what is gonna happen to Kieran because while he wants to help the Rebellion he has feelings for the Princess, and will he get outed or find a way to keep what he's been up to a secret? I wonder how things are gonna turn out for him since, unless we meet other Atreides offspring we have to assume the line of House Atreides that goes to Duke Leto and Paul goes through Kieran.
vorian atreides was basically genghis khan in this universe, his spawn is everywhere, he anchor beings the timeline. the house of atreides main characters the whole series, now newly established at caladan. also, lila is a descendant of reverend mother raquella who was the granddaughter of vorian atreides.
There has to be many other Atreides.
They are a ruling house in the Dune universe, the lord of a ruling house does not work as a servant in the Emperor's household, Keiran will be some distant cousin of the actual ruling part of House Atreides.
I can’t believe I didn’t think of this before but I think this theory may be right so POSSIBLE SPOILERS AHEAD…in the books the sorceresses of Rossak who inspired Raquella to found the sisterhood, and much of the sorceresses themselves joined the sisterhood, had the ability to boil the thinking machine’s brains with their telekinetic abilities. I think Desmond is the son of one of the last remaining sorceresses which means he actually does have this telekinetic ability. I think not only him but Jenn has this ability as well and she was actually the one to kill Kasha. Jenn is saying more and more that insinuates she does not agree with The Sisterhood and is probably working as an agent from the inside with Desmond. Majority of the sorceresses joined the The Sisterhood in very early days, and unfortunately much of them died off but I believe some never joined and remained on Rossak. Perhaps this is where Desmond came from and perhaps Jenn is related to him.
Absolutely no idea how he survived that worm tho
I love the actress that plays the Empress, really enjoyed her in S1 of the Witcher. Cool seeing her here
Jodhi May. Looks so different now since I first saw her the Last of the Mohicans
I really disliked her in the Witcher, did not buy her character at all. she's better here though
Just because the Tleilaxu make gholas from corpses doesn't mean that they can't also make a clone from a living person, or make multiple clones. Maybe Desmond is just a regular clone. And there could be more than one.
Clones don't exist in the Dune universe only gholas.
I really hope they are talking about Leto II and not Desmond. That would be so dope.
Could still be cool if the Bene Gesserit think it’s Desmond but are wrong, and blunder, because Raquella is in fact referring to Leto II
Yea, Im moving closer to the idea that Raquella sensed Leto because they insist with the word Tyranny or Tyrant and we know thats our god boy
Yes it would be very interesting, but one thing doesn't sit right with me - how could she see him or sense him? Even Paul didn't know that he would have a son, he was that powerful, so how could one of the first reverend mother see it?
@@wlodarka fair enough, in the end I think the tyrant part is going to be a vague reference and Arafel, as Leto II forsaw it, must be a prescient machine of some sort.
@@Diogolindir the glowing eyes makes me believe it's a prescient machine. They were very machine-like.
Something about Constantine is setting off alarm bells. Ynez tells a story about rebels kidnapping her and Constantine when they were children. Their father covered it up and Constantine never talks about it - could he have been compromised somehow?
Constantine was in the palace when the child burned and earlier he was ALSO in the house of the BG where Kasha later died - could he have planted a device somewhere which activated when she was near? Perhaps working in conjunction with Desmond (with or without his knowledge) or even using him as a scapegoat. He definitely let that information about Desmond slip on purpose. There's more to him and he's being played as a careless secondary character to lull us into dismissing him.
What i don’t get about him is why he’s not in the line. Just cause he’s a bastard. Technically so is Paul. 😊
@maciedixon3983 It's kinda up to the Duke or emperor. Duke Atredies specifically recognized Paul as his heir and didn't marry any other suitable wife even wishing he had married Jessica. As for this show, my guess on why the prince isn't in line is probably a combination of BG manipulation for the correct bloodline (his daughter is but the son isn't) and his wife seems like she'd give him a pretty big fight if her daughter wasn't above his bastard son.
"The key to the reckoning is one born twice: " That sounds like Paul. Isnt the reckoning going to happen in Letos' time? The discrption is of being born twice, the second time through what might be spice agony. Paul did not become the shortening of the way ( Kwisatz Haderach) until he endured the spice agony.
great video! my fiance got me obsessed with Dune - I've read the 1st 3 by frank - and I'm loving prophecy... really like the way you did your review - i have so many questions! I'm absolutely hooked, can't wait for next week. notifications are on!
Kwisatz Haderach literally means, "The shortening of the way"....And the Other Memory says, "A path too short" ... i.e., the Kwisatz Haderach arrived earlier than expected (Paul).
12:00 I might be mistaken but I also believe it's stated in the original books by frank herbert that the Voice cannot override the most primal instinct of humans, like you can order someone to give you their gun but not to shoot themselves
The movies made the Voice way too strong. It's Jedi mind control, only worse. The show might follow in those footsteps.
If the mother superior wanted to kill him, she could just have stroke his hand when he was resisting, pushing the blade into the throat. Or more in line with the books, she could have poisoned him, or used a mix of influences, lies and Voice to have a few palace guards do the dirty work for her.
Yes the Voice is strong, but in a very short or very oblique way. Jessica couldn't have survived their desert trip if the Harkonens soldiers weren't undisciplined rapey thugs in the first place, and she spent probably a few hours studying and listening to them.
Given that Paul was able to train a Duncan ghola to resist the voice in Messiah, I'm taking that scene as the final clue that Desmond is, in fact, a ghola (or gholas, given the miraculous double and identical assassinations on different worlds.) I don't think anything else makes sense, and it's a pretty cool way to introduce the concept, IMO. I also like the idea that all of this is maybe an ouroboros with a touchpoint in the distant future instigated by the God Emperor himself.
It's official I love this show. So much in this episode love that I think this is the first time we've ever really got to see what it's like when someone accesses their ancestral memories. Beautifully done. I especially love that how when you awaken those ancestral memories if there's anything people have told you that are not quite true you're going to discover them.😊😊
I like the show too. My thought on "path too short" - it is reference to golden path. Like someone wants the same thing as Bene Gesserit, but wants to take a shortcut.
I absolutely love what Desmond says to Valya after he resists The Voice.
“I always wondered what your greatest fear would be. Now I have seen it. It’s not that you’re afraid no one will listen to you. You’re afraid that they’ll hear you… *and just not care.*”
That line goes so freaking hard, like my God. A unilateral “f you” to not just Valya but to the entire Bene Gesserit Sisterhood. Absolutely peak.
Thanks Quinn, nice review. I went from feeling a bit "hmm, ok this is interesting" to "I'm hooked" after the second one.
Man I was so excited to see your analysis of this episode. I can’t wait for Tuesday when you go more in depth.
I'm really enjoying these reviews and dont mind the spoiler effects. I am waiting for the entire series to be recorded on my Foxtel, then binge watch the series at once. Love your work as always Quinn 😁👍
I love hearing your thoughts on this series, your videos on Dune series are what gave me a greater appreciation and understanding of the plot, world, and themes of Frank Herbert’s original 6. It’s interesting to watch this show not only through the lens of Dune fan but a Dune SCHOLAR haha. I’m digging the show a lot
Thanks Quinn. Need em to keep me updated.
This episode ramped things up so much, it was insane. I enjoyed the first episode but this was something else
First, I want to say your breakdowns of this show so far are fantastic. I really appreciate your deeper insight on this. You're prediction last week about Desmond being a Ghola is one I'm all in on, if they decide to go that route. The story about the worm taking his eye and replacing it with a gift seems a bit far-fetched to me... But he may also not know he is a Ghola, so there's that ...
Personally, I loved this episode. It really did a good job of showing, not telling, when it came to the agony. I love that we got to see a literal version of the struggle Alia deals with in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. The deeper cost of prescience and seeing an agony that didn't go well was really good. It's clear the BG are still finding their way as a culture, and it's interesting to see these early steps to what they become later on.
Some background: I've only read the first 4 Frank Herbert dune books so far. But this show is really motivating me to dust off 5 and 6, since the BG have a much bigger role in that era of the story. Loving the show and loving your breakdowns! Thank you!!
Love your vids dude. Love the passion. Keep it going
I'm cautiously optimistic about the show so far.
It strikes me that part of what is being set up for the BGs is that they are uncovering this prophecy which actually speaks about Leto II and they are mistaking it as referring to their current situation. Realizing that mistake seems like the thing they must learn to reorient their objectives and priorities toward their Dune-time-period institutional structure. Alternately (or in parallel), it may be a warning about either the final assault of the Honored Matres that cripples the sisterhood, or even about the threat of a return of the thinking machines that at least the Brian/Kevin retcon of books 7 and 8 imply Leto was trying to prepare against. Either way, I think they are mistaking a project about a distant threat as describing their immediate threat and they have to figure that out.
Very good episode! Better pacing, a couple small twists, and a good cliffhanger. I'm excited to watch the rest of the season :)
The sisters’ belief that arafel is upon them could parallel a tendency I personally have observed among evangelical Christian’s sects to believe that the end times are constantly upon them. It’s a pattern they’ve displayed over 100 years pointing to a certain ‘current’ event and claiming it fulfills a particular prophecy.
It’s possible the sisters are making a similar mistake with Raquella’s words. They think it is happening in their time when it can just as easily be referring to events 10,000 years in the future.
I also wonder if “a path too short” isn’t a hint towards humanity as a whole being on the wrong path that would be cut short by prescient AI. This would lend towards Quinn’s theory that Desmond is a tool being used by Leto II to manipulate events in the past that will aid him in setting up The Golden Path.
Really enjoying that they are dragging the revelations out slowly. It makes for fun theorycrafting!
I'm loving this show thus far. But I think some of the more critical opinions are based in sheer impatience. Dune is not meant for the impatient.
Yea, Im sure is not going to be THAT popular but not because the show is bad. More like Dune demands attention
My current theory is that Desmond Hart actually didn’t kill Reverend Mother Kasha. How would his power work across the galaxy. The emperor made A point to mention this. But….if there was a second ghola….? I think the acolyte Jen killed Kasha, and is a also a ghola with the same ability as Hart
this episode was so much better than the first! i am hooked! Happy to have another expansion of the Duneverse.
I'm loving the pace of those first episodes, hope it keep delivering good stories until the end of the season.
Me and my dad are obsessed with Dune. We love watching your analysis right after the episode. Thank you for your work and passion for the saga. We can’t wait for next week. ❤
Something i dont see anyone talking about is Lila's ancestry. She was told that her mother died giving birth ... But grandmother (Dorotea) said during the agony that her mother "is not here." Which makes me think mothers death is a lie.
If thats true, this is important. When offered a way out by Tula, "We'll just have to look for other options" ... Perhaps Lila isnt the only one they could attempt Agony with. Mother could be out there. Perhaps hard to reach, or someone who has gone rogue / anti Bene Gesseret (after learning about Valya killing Dorotea?).
Or ... And this would be nuts ... But Mikaela, the sister assigned to the rebels, is her mother?
I suspect Raquella's line will continue to be central to the show, and is perhaps the one rhing Brian Herbert wanted to influence (for better or worse).
@SPIKESPIEGEL1969 two thoughts:
1) is the Spice Agony identical to this primitive form with the Rossack poison?
2) What could it mean for Dorotea to say "your mother isn't here" then? The mother is dead but not present among the vast sea of past generations because ...? I really don't think you bother to write that in the script without it hinting to some larger purpose.
The empress calling the worm Shai-Halud seems like foreshadowing of some interesting backstory for her
I hope so, because It seems weird to me How important things that people did not know 10000 years later seem to be known by every character....
@@PeregrinoPotiguarI agree. How did she know it was called that
She is stated to be descended of Zensunni wanderers, who are precursors to the fremen.
Where?
I'm thinking Desmond is the ancestor of the Fenrings. Either he'll change his name (to Fenring) or have children with someone (and they'll be named Fenring) who will stick very close to the emperor until the events of Dune
one thing unmentioned: why did the souls during the spice agony scene look like literal face dancers? That was kinda out there, but not sure why at all.
Hey Quinn, I've been a fan for years and love your content. You are the Dune master in my book.
I am loving this show. I hope there will be a season 2, 3,...10. There is so much that can be done with this series.
Thanks for this, Quinn. Good thoughts and analysis.
I was quietly astonished by this episode and hope this level of drama continues.
I remember in one of the books they talked about wild kwisatz haderachs.
Thanks as always for your thoughts and input. I liked this episode, it feels like they are trying to build the plot strands, intrigue, conflict points.
All with a relatively modest budget.
I fear this will not find a mainstream audience and remain a Curate's egg.
Legit returning here every week to understand these episodes and probably to be told I was wrong lol (love ur content)
Maybe he is the Bene Tleilax kwisatz haderach. Probably not, just a thought that occurred to me watching today’s episode.
Given Scytale mentioned they made one between book 1 and 2 and he killed himself the show runners might want to borrow this. Villeneuve doesn't like too much exposition so he will probably not include this info in Messiah
The thing is that this seems way early in the timeline for all that.
@@MS-ii1sv yeah I was thinking the same thing. I had another read of the conspiracy chapter in Messiah and Scytale is vague on when they did their experiments. ‘We once bred a kwisatz haderach of our own’ and ‘we dabbled in various pure essences, pure good and pure evil…’
@@LiamBoyce-z1k If I'm not mistaken this show takes place like 80 years after the Butlerian Jihad. Bene Gesserit, mentats and navigators all happen in response to the moratorium on computers. Prior to that they relied on machines for almost everything so how developed are all of these new methods after a mere 80 years? 80 years can be a long time in technology but in evolutionary terms it is nothing.
@@MS-ii1svIt's more like 150 or more years after the Machine Wars, *cough cough* I mean, Butlerian Jihad.
This episode was so much better than the first one, hopefully they get better and not worse.
Happy about the agony scene and how they showed the possibility of possesion. I liked Desmond and him facing Alya. I just don't like Constantine Corrino. So far he is there to be handsome and very dumb by leaking info. I also don't like the Atreides but Im happy the rebellion is going down since it felt awkward but Im happy that the Fremen is actually a Bene Gesserit, nice touch.
@@SPIKESPIEGEL1969 maybe, yea. The Atreides "traits" are something the BG cultivates over the centuries.
Great analysis and yes, I'm hooked!
Enjoyed your guest appearance on the Gom Jabbar pod!
I was thinking Tleilaxu / Ixian hijinks too!
There's a great thematic irony here: Valya sets herself against the inflexibility of the zealots when she was young. Now she finds herself unwilling to disrupt a plan long in the making, blindsiding her and costing her Kasha's life and ultimately access to the Emperor.
Thanks for your review and explanations! Cheers
16:00 Couldnt you argue the worms have some sort of supernatural power because they are what produces spice?
No. Spice is a biological byproduct of the Worm's lifecycle. No "magic" involved.
The first line of the message is like a riddle or a witches prophecy/curse . The rest of it sounds like a Haiku poem with the first line acting like the Kireji. i wonder what 'Revenant' refers to and what exactly is the 'Reckoning'? Just by the name of the show alone, I assumed the prophecy is the discovery of the idea of the Kwisatz Haderach.
One question raised in this episode: Did/does Tula know that Valya murdered Theodora? Why would Tula lie to Lila about the circumstances of her mother's death if she knew full well that there was a good chance she was about to "meet" her mother and learn otherwise? Lila knew what Valya had done for the few moments she survived the agony, but did any other living person know?
Lila doesn't appear to be dead basing upon the preview for episode 3. I'm assuming she's in some sort of comatose state, or a state of near-death. I think the spice melange will be used in some way based on that scene where she's holding a small glass container with what appears to be spice mixed into some sort of solution.
You put me on to the Three Body books and help me sleep, least I can do is give you my thumbs. 👍
I'm honestly leaning towards Desmond Hart being a Tleilaxu creation. He has to be some sort of Ghola-like experiment.
Love Desmond's dialogue who always talk about control, self-reliance/thinking, so Herbert Duny
This episode interested me more than episode 1 🙏
Thank you, Quinn! I LOVE the connections you draw to GEOD!
Desmond's ability is more reminiscent of the Sorceresses of Rossak's abilities. I recall one 'detonating' cymeks in the prequels.
Thank you for your videos on DUNE. I enjoy your insight and views upon the series.
Hart v Reverend hooked me for the next episode.
Im so curious how he fits
Thank you for your breakdown!
It would make sense for the show runners to introduce Gholas since one in particular is very prominent in Dune Messiah.
loving these videos, keep it up!
It sounds like they’re purposely confusing the prophecy with Desmond and the god emperor. Like the current bene geserit think the prophecy refers to Desmond, then end up having a revelation that the prophecy refers to the god emperor. Also curious if Desmond is going to be the first ixian kwizats attempt and they’re testing his abilities by sending him out into the imperium
Never heard of Dune before the Villeneuve movies, never read the books, have watched hours of content on this channel.
That being said, I find myself constantly craving more of the Dune universe and this has currently satisfied that craving lol. It’s early but I think these first 2 episodes are very promising. This stuff is fascinating.
Same. I’m going to have to eventually read the books though ha ha
read the books! They are good!
You ought to start reading the books. Just go with the audio books
Highly recommend the audio books
Read the books, end of story…
"Born twice: once in blood, once in spice": sounds like it could be any future reverend mother on Arakis (or among the Bene Gesserit once spice serves as the substance of choice for the Agony) OR to Paul OR to Leto II.
"A revenant full of scars" (sounds like Leto II but could conceivably refer to Paul) OR could refer to a ghola (albeit one with scars).
"A weapon of war": very cryptic though there's the intriguing parallel to Ghanima (the "spoils of war").
"On a path too short": obvious parallel to the "shortening of the way" (aka Kwisatz Hadderach", though the "too short" is more suggestive of Paul.
My conclusion: the showrunners are setting out a thick carpet of mist ("arafel", if you prefer) with tons of red herrings - or perhaps that should be "blue herrings" - to get viewers to look beyond the immediate hint that the "prophesy" is about Demond Hart.
My theory of Desmond Hart is a time traveling Duncan Ghola is gaining steam! Even his looks remind me of Jason Mamoa and the many art pieces of Duncan.
Your first video about Desmond being a ghola from the Tleilax stuck with me. I think it would make sense to introduce this here so they can have it in everything else. Very interesting to world build in the cinematic sphere since we can get Duncan back and not spend a bunch of time on it.
Episode 2 was genuinely fantastic. Not a single moment that wasn’t intrigue or drama. It even dips into trippy horror. Very excited for the rest of the series. The season premiere was just ok but this episode was phenomenal
Regarding resisting the voice, at 12:39 I actually think he was toying with her.... he was acting that he was under her control, when in fact she had no power over him
I loved this second episode, and how it improved upon the first. Well done