Well said. I also like how Bookfox said it. At the BEGINNING is often great, for example, a premise is "What if someone with 6 months to live won the lottery?" Winning the lottery is rare, a huge coincidence, but it does happen. If we start the book that way, then we're exploring the consequences of that coincidence. If, instead the story was about someone with a gambling problem who digs himself deeper and deeper in debt making bad decision after bad decision, and then instead of him having a revelation or changing his behavior in some way, he wins the lotter at the END... that's a fiat ex machina!
Coincidence can also be its own character if it is used as the antagonist. Imagine a theme of "You can't control what the universe throws at you, but you can control how you respond to it."
Given the total number of events in the world, coincidences are inevitable. To ruthlessly delete every possible one is just unrealistic. They just shouldn’t be major plot devices.
@@judithstrachan9399 That is the lifeblood of every soap opera ever. Anything that might maybe possibly coincidentally happen or has happened at any time in human history anywhere in the world will happen to one of 20 predetermined characters in a tiny neighbourhood within the next ten years.
Let me see here…I’m not a good writer and have trouble finishing anything, but here goes… 1. Entertainment, but in trance form. I love word play. As an artist, I like creating an immersive narrative with a periphery, and I like to leave some room for liminal space. 2. Movie. I see all my stories unfolding on a big screen. Yikes. I have no interest in writing a screenplay. 3. What not to show? I prefer to allude to certain things so the reader can fill in the missing words. Gratuitous anything, especially sex and violence is a mood killer for me. I find that sex scenes tend to interrupt a story more than keep it moving. The same goes for violence. But a look, a touch, a gesture, fine. Same for violence, except obviously more threatening or menacing. The exception to this rule is if the sex or violence (or anything) has a specific purpose. I have a scene in one of my stories that is deliberately violent and gory, and the purpose is to jar the protagonist into the reality that he is in a very dangerous world, whereas prior to that, he was merely wandering in an expansive oblivion. It’s preceded by a scene that’s very sensual, alluding to sex, so I won’t draw lines in the sand. My characters tell me what’s up. 4. Both round and flat, but my favorite are those the start flat and emerge round almost from the background. All of my characters have pretty deep backstories, which helps create a more organic dynamic. The little things can make a big difference as far as options when I’m writing. 5. Primarily moral, but amorality is helpful for juxtaposition or to highlight one character’s experience in whatever bigger story I’m writing. I love subtlety. 6. Coincidences? They emerge sometimes, but I try to be deliberate about foreshadowing-to an extent. 7. Anticipation works better for me because surprise is almost like coincidence, and can ring hollow. 8. Mostly no name brands or celebrities. The stories I write have no need for them, for the most part. I am writing an absurdist story that has some references, and the story I’m almost finished with definitely has 80’s song titles as easter eggs throughout. I tend more toward MacCarthy. The world building is essential. Most of my stories come from vivid or lucid dreams I have. 9. Themes? I guess I start with a concept that naturally contains some kind of tension, but typically, the theme clarifies as I write. Great video.
i feel #3. writing actual sex happening feels too much like an anatomy textbook for me to like it. i don’t need to know exactly what character was where, that doesn’t convey any feeling.
@@juju10683 True - as long as you don't go overboard making things difficult. I remember watching a movie a long time ago where the protagonists were confronted with a major problem, but had a good plan and resources to combat it. Then everything fell apart due to a series of coincidences that ruined everything they tried and they had to adapt. Watching characters adapt is good, but the sheer number of things going wrong that were clearly meant solely to keep the characters from solving the problem too quickly ended up killing my suspension of disbelief.
#5 I LOVE your answer. One of the main reasons I read novels is to learn how to be a better person, to see characters in challenging (or not) situations, how they act, how they are rewarded or punished etc. and contemplate on how to be the best people we can be. Often this means the author is taking a clear stance on right vs. wrong. However, this can be done with counterpoints, characters who disagree, even succeed at times acting the "wrong" way etc. WITHOUT lecturing at me. I can't stand the author who patronizes and acts like their perspective is obvious and you must be a big dummy if you disagree.
I'm writing a novel that largely centers around the forests of the Adirondacks, and I needed a character to have the initials W.E. in his name. I happened on Ralph Waldo Emerson, and when I read about his philosphies on nature it made complete sense in relation to this character's own views of the world. And now the forest itself has become a character.
Right now I'm developing a novel idea, and already certain themes came to mind, like justice and the power of the mind. Your points about the risk of over-explaining and heavy-handed morality make much sense. As did the other topics you talked about here. Another very, very insightful video. Thank you, @Bookfox. Subbed.
I forget if Bookfox is more of a "discovery" writer, but that comment sounded like it. "The writing process" for me includes planning, outlining, structuring etc. and if I don't have a theme going into it, I think I'm gonna get lost!
My favorite book series doesn’t really have round characters, but the characters are SO MUCH FUN! Round characters are nice, but they’re not always necessary. I’m glad this video reminded me of that because I started feeling bad about the fact that my characters in the story I’m currently writing are flat as a piece of paper. I’m writing an allegorical fairytale.
- There is nothing like a surprise, that builds on anticipation. - On themes: I'd make the distinction between exploratory and explanatory themes; the ones asking questions and the ones answering them. I use exploratory themes for my development especially for characters. An example would be "The feeling of knowing everything there is to know about life and being thrust into new circumstances that question many of those formerly firmly held beliefs". It's an exploratory theme that stays with the character throughout the story and it doesn't have to come to any on-your-nose conclusions. However I will take to heart, that I'll try to never let those themes shine through in my prose. I'm now very aware of that pitfall. Great writing advice as always!
Great video, thank you :) As to themes, I actually do decide my themes before writing the novel... I tie them very closely to the character arcs, and based on reader feedback it doesn't come across as preachy or like I'm bludgeoning them over the head. In my current novel, the thematic message is that everyone can be loved, no matter who they are or how they see themselves, and that's also the lesson my two protagonists learn. I've found that my favorite authors all use that technique for themes, and so I've adopted it as best as I can because I enjoy writing what I enjoy reading. 😄
Same perspective here. For me, the theme is what keeps me on target with my writing. I don't want to shove anything down the reader's throat, but I want to ensure every scene is serving its purpose in conveying a moral message. Love your theme. Mine is something like "Fight not those on the other side but those above who divide."
Themes: My novel started a decade ago as a morality tale theme against mass animal kidnappings from the wild (such as trapping hundreds of budgies to be shipped to pet markets). But over the years, as things happened in the story, it's grown to include many issues (from unintended consequences, bureaucracy’s foibles, Murphy’s Law, and the dangerous allure of passionate desire and belief). The title now includes "(A Cautionary Tale)" after the main title.
In my opinion, this is why knowing your theme is important. It sounds like you might have more than 1 book there! Otherwise, people may get confused. Not saying you can't do it all, but you might think about how cohesive the story is, esp. if its 10 years in the making!
I don't know who said it, nor the precise verbetum quote, but one big writer stated that you should write without determining a theme, as the theme will emerge on its own.
If by started a decade ago you mean you’ve been working on the same novel for over a decade, what you’ve described about themes sounds like you may have an “overwriting” problem, in which you have a multitude of different versions of the same story that you’re trying to make coexist instead of committing to just one version of it and cutting unnecessary content from prior iterations of the story and/or saving those for sequels that expand on the original premise, rather than trying to make multiple premises coexist. This is actually a common problem that happens when a writer works on one story for many years. A good way to “test” for this problem is whether or not you can write a logline for the novel, likewise, if you can specify one primary theme that encapsulates the novel. If you find your story needs multiple loglines and themes to capture all of the “main” story, it may be a sign your novel isn’t really a standalone novel, but a series of novels and you’d have an easier time finishing it/bringing your vision to life if you give yourself the “breathing room” of multiple books to tell your story!
@@Sanakudou Here's my log line: "The story of a greedy but well-meaning alien who abducts half a million people from Earth, his AI boss who decides it must now conquer and manage a now-paranoid and pissed-off Earth to prevent interstellar war, and the self-doubting tech firm CEO who must defeat both but wonders if she should." The story has grown from the simple abduction story it started out as. And yeah, it flows, and is consistent, at least from my perspective. It's actually two stories with two, ultimately-merging plots. The abduction raid is a quick Prologue that sets the stage for both story lines. Then, a framing story has the AI telling the CEO the framed story, in a bid to get her cooperation. Framing and framed plots alternate in different parts. A quick, snarky Epilogue ties the two plot lines together. Time will tell; I need to find a beta reader to check my assumptions.
@@Sanakudou My logline is "This is the story of a greedy but well-meaning alien who abducts half a million people from Earth, his AI boss who decides it must now conquer and manage a paranoid and pissed-off Earth to prevent interstellar war, and the self-doubting tech firm CEO who must defeat both but wonders if she should." The story and themes have evolved. From my admittedly biased perspective, everything seems to mesh well. Time will tell. I need to find a reliable and knowledgeable beta reader.
For me, the moral/amoral question is tied to themes. I don't necessarily go for morality preaching, but more for an exploration of a part of a human condition, which is tied to the theme. The human condition could be connected to morality or separate from it. But the whole story is an exploration of it and thus, an exploration of the theme. I definitely go in knowing what the theme is, but I like having characters debate various elements of it, and often, various contrasting points of view are shown to have value. The best example I can use is Black Panther (the MCU film), where various points of view are examined regarding whether or not Wakanda should help groups of people that are in need/ that are victimized.
"What can writing do that films can't?" is exactly why a couple days ago I decided to focus on epistolary stories or, at the least, first person POV. I want to train myself NOT to think in a cinematic way.
A lot of people are talking about when and how to use coincidences. Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with where in the book it takes place, but how it relates to the characters' goals - the coincidence should only ever hurt the hero(es), not help them. Imagine you're 85% of the way through a heist story - if the coincidence is the protagonist guesses the password to the vault, that would feel lazy and kill interest. If the coincidence was that the police decided to do a random inspection of the casino that day, that would add to the tension and I think readers would be much more okay with it.
Some years ago, I audited a creative writing class to start myself writing again. I titled one of my short stories “At Janey’s Fountain.” I saved another student’s review of it. She wrote on her copy of my story, “I felt like I was there so much that when the story ended, I was surprised I wasn’t at Janey’s.” > All that to say maybe I'm a trance writer.
I completely agree with your take on themes. I feel like every advice video wants you to shove a theme in from the beginning, and that has never worked for me. In fairness, I am very much a pantser writer, so doing too much preplanning in any area kills my writing. I need to see it take shape organically and then revise to fix any issues.
I never intentionally write themes, but my stories always end up with one. For instance, my action/adventure about a fourteen year old girl and her five year old step brother ended up with a strong theme about depending on each other. My story about a crazy homeless guy, some children, and a police officer ended up being a story about beneficence. Apparently, my philosophy of life always takes over.
I don't know who said it, nor the precise verbetum quote, but one big writer stated that you should write without determining a theme, as the theme will emerge on its own.
As an editor for 40 years and as a writer of novels, I was very happy to run across this video of writing-craft questions and your discussion of them. It keeps things focused in a way that I've probably articulated in a fat, wordy way before. I'm bookmarking this vid to share with fellow writers and my writing clients. This is golden and informative without being all preachy. You're accessible.
This is a very interesting video. These questions should be asked by every author. It depends on your genre. What is suitable for your genre? It needs careful thought. Who is your audience? What is suitable for them?
There really is no right and wrong when it comes to writing a moral in your story. Some people prefer romantic art, other people naturalistic art. I’m definitely in the former camp. If I wanted to experience realism I just have to go to work and talk with people there.
I agree on wanting my fiction to have virtues and morals, but also dislike finger wagging 😅 One thing I try to do is to show the morals that often come up in real life, that we see in life. Like the book I'm writing now, I want one of the messages to be kindness repays kindness. My MC is going to make a decision to still strive to be kind despite what happens to her, because she wants to be that sort of person. She sees kindness is a good thing for her as it is for others, but not in any grand way, but how it often is in life A kind act to one random person isn't going to make you a millionaire, but it is nice to have a warm feeling in your heart seeing someone smile after what you did. And there have been times in my life where kindness I've put out has come back to me in surprising ways, but more common is that kind people get taken advantage of as well So the choice my MC makes is that it's still worth it for her to be kind, despite the fact she's going to have to also accept she has to be on her guard from being taken advantage of, and she's probably not going to see any grand reward. But it feels good for her in her soul. I know this all itself sounds like a lecture lol sorry, but it's just to say that's a moral I've seen in real life that usually has a natural conclusion reached, and it's an inner conclusion, you have to come to it yourself
Wow! What an excellent deep dive into these questions. I love how you are specific, but not overbearing in your advice. Regarding Brand Names, a recent read of Elin Hilderbrand's The Five Star Weekend comes to mind. It definitely evokes time and place. I write historical fiction, so it's fun to research brands popular in the 19th Century. Not all are easy, like Wells Fargo. I think what is key is making the reference feel natural, rather than like an obvious product placement in a movie or TV show. Does the brand show the wealth of the character? Also fun to make up names of companies. Keep up the great content.
I believe that Anticipation is a huge tool for a story's success. I'd make a video about this, but i don't have a following. Anticipation is the number one thing that keeps people focused on the story even if tension is low. It allows the audience to play a game with the book or movie to see if they are right about what's to come. As long as the audience isn't right all of the time, it will work wonderfully. Take Top Gun Maverick. Right away, we see that they are preparing something big (Maverick is getting suited up for something). You wait in suspense... You see that Ed Harris is coming and that he wants to cancel the flight test. Uhoh, conflict. Ticking Clock, they need to hurry. Will they succeed or will they not? You see that this is a test to push the bounds of aircraft speed. Will they beat the record? Maverick takes the roof off the security depot while Ed Harris is there. That pisses him off, the anticipated conflict is heightened. You see the ground control and Maverick lying to Harris' face. Anticipated conflict heightens. They beat the record, but the look on Maverick's face tells you immediately that he wants to go further. Hondo's reaction in the control room shows he's worried that Maverick will push it too far. You know what's going to happen, you sit at the edge of your seat. He pushes the speed, everyone is silent. You know something will go wrong. Tension is heightened. Then it goes wrong. Later, you see the fallout with Ed Harris. Anticipation ends for this sequence. In one scene, you have a a lot of anticipation escalating and being layered on top of itself. It keeps you engaged. And that is just in the first ten minutes. Now take Joker 2. You are almost never shown anything ahead of time. You are almost never clued into the plot's progression. It doesn't keep you on the edge of your seat by teasing you about what's to come. It uses surprise. The music scenes come as a surprise. The guards are nice, then mean, then nice at random (there is only one scene where you see conflict coming ahead of time). Harley is crazy, so her actions are largely surprising. Joker doesn't have a real arc, so his actions are both surprising and boring. Then you have the stakes. It is about a court trial for the Joker. The stakes revolve around whether he will win or lose. Your emotional tie in for court dramas is about the jury verdict. But what does Joker 2 do? (SPOILER) Right when he loses, someone blows up the courthouse and he escapes. This destroys the stakes sent up by the rest of the film. All in the name of Surprise. If the courthouse gets blown up so he can escape, then it doesn't matter how any of the court scenes played out previously. And on a rewatch, you will find yourself not caring about how they question a witness or if Harley will distract Joker or anything. It is all meaningless. Anticipation of conflict is easily one of the most poweful tools any writer can use. Although a little surprise helps with tension because it helps the reader to subconsciously understand that they won't be right about what they anticipate every single time, so it heightens tension. Of course, it often needs to be more subtle then what the video implies. If the audience is told explicitly what will happen, then there is usually no point in reading or watching it.
Bookfox probably didn't have a following when he started doing videos. It's risky and takes much consistent effort, but not having a following at the start should not be a factor. To your success!
@@Bookfox You're already at 30.7K subscribers - that's a fast climb. One main cause: you deliver above average quality information and thoughtful stuff.
I think it’s very interesting you discuss coincidence right after morality. I wonder if this is intentional? The book that came to mind as the exception to the general rule of “no coincidence at the end” is Tropic of Cancer by Henry Miller. His route out of Paris is pure coincidence, but tied to a radical style and morality. Does this justify the aesthetic choice? I would say yes, it’s a joyous moment in the book. And it feels true. After all, rules are markers, but creativity sometimes comes in the form of a broken rule
I like to write down general themes for my stories, but I always write them as questions that I don't have an answer to. If there's a "right" or "clear" answer, or I know exactly what i want to say about a topic, I won't use it as a theme for a novel since it makes for a much less interesting writing (and reading) experience!
Love the first one about language being a trance, or entertainment. I'm currently writing a Midwestern Gothic novel, and I tend to get into the weeds of artistic descriptions. Currently on my third draft, and I've been focusing on making the descriptions of the world feel more like a trance since I want to capture that sort of liminal kenopsia that the characters inhabit but be less artistic with the progression of the story when the characters interact or need to move the plot forward.
Great plug for pantsing about the theme emerging thru the story being explored ie, pantsing let's a writer explore the 'paranormal' energy in what's been plotted
Themes: my current novel began as an illustration that seemed to hint at a rather simple inversion of expectation. I layered on a rather standard “book by its cover” theme. But i never leaned into them. I said, these are inspiration themes. Then i spent 20y finding my characters, their voices, and so on. I discover new and deeper themes as the work progresses. The first themes are still there … but they’ve faded to subtext, i guess. I think what you might be warning on is focusing on the theme and not the story. I’m personally thinking I must be an odd writer. I’m telling my characters life stories. It just so happens they tend to have rather … dramatic lives. Hah! The story is lived, not assembled … at least in my mind.
There are different kinds of coincidences, and I think many of them are fine, as long as they aren't plot destroying coincidences. The main character, for instance might meet someone in the beginning who is tied to the antagonist, but not realize it until they meet the antagonist. There may be an item placed near the beginning of the story that becomes important later, but only as a reminder of something. Your Main Character could even realize at the last minute before the climax that there is a connection to something in her past that matters now. So, in order to truly use coincidences well, I think it might be a good idea to highlight what exactly they are and how to use them.
Number two is funny because I actually have an illustration degree so I started with graphic novels but I kept getting frustrated before I realized it wasn’t the right medium for those stories 😅😹
i'm new to your content, but it just seems so fresh and helpful!! like, i was pleasantly surprised that those questions are really good and i never thought of them and nobody really talks about them
I have found my themes during the character exploration process and when I'm settling on a premise. Like, I knew Family was going to be a theme of the series I'm writing because it centers around a character's identity as the child of a courtesan. But that was it. As I created my other characters I made sure I thought about their Family systems and found other themes linked to their values, like Duty vs. Desires, Found Family, Community vs. Individual, etc. It was a launching pad for finding other themes I didn't realize were there while letting go of themes I thought were.
#7 I need to think about this one hard because the name of my book is "The Magi's Secret." I think that title conveys a lot about the type of book it is, a fantasy worldview with a lot of questions/mystery for the remainder series. The "secret" that drives book 1 is known by ~15% mark, but it is doubted and challenged to varying degrees by different characters, AND at the climax of the book we get the "surprise" that the reader could have seen coming but wouldn't know for sure. Like many things, it's about balance I guess!
i get a kick doing every single thing i was ever told not to. that's my fave thing about writing, but when you add it all up, something's gotta do something. are you conveying what you intend to, whatever that is, or not?
My understanding of brand names is that if you don't portray them badly, you're fine. Example is in the Janet Evanovich Nicolas Fox/Kate O'Hare series characters in a scene are drinking Tim Hortons coffee and one says that's the best coffee they've ever had. Tim Hortons won't have a problem with that, but if you have another character say it makes a competitor's coffee taste like garbage you might have a meeting with that company's legal team
I think your take on themes is very interesting. I've been grappling with the idea of themes for years, now, and I could never really wrap my head around the idea that a theme is necessary. Most concepts that authors preach have eventually come to make sense to me, but the theme concept is not one of them. I've spent many hours trying to incorporate it into my story, but it's always seemed a bit contrived.
What a fantastic video. Love listenable writerly content, but, respectfully, the vast majority of it is Writing 101. Very nice to find some more advanced stuff out here. The theme of my WIP from the get-go was to explore the space between Fame, Notoriety, and Obscurity. When is one of these things better than the others?
I think "What good is this scene of explicit sexual violence against girls doing for my book?" is a question many, many authors (especially historical fiction authors) fail to ask themselves, honestly
Seems like a "kick the dog" moment notched up to 11. In other words, a very good way to show what an awful person someone is. In historical fiction, it's probably a good way to show the disparity between sexes, the lack of power women/girls used to have compared to today. I agree, authors should ask the question.
@@PhoenixCrown That’s always what is used to justify it, but my argument is that you can allude to it without showing it so raw and explicitly. Use what is not shown to haunt the reader instead of using the violence to shock. Sometimes those scenes feel almost voyeuristic. Sexual violence against women has a deep, layered meaning, it’s a very particular form of torture, and I feel like it often becomes a cheap and cruel tool for worldbuilding and shock value. I’m not saying it’s a subject to never be touched in writing. In his book Beartown, Fredrik Backman has an event of sexual violence at the core of the story, he shows the actual scene of it and the events afterward, and it is approached in a heartbreaking, gut-punching, amazing way I had never seen before (but then again Backman approaches everything wonderfully).
@@carololiveira4831I asked myself how many of my favourite pieces of media (movies, books, tv shows) have that type of scene, and the answer is genuinely zero. It is absolutely unnecessary for a good work of art to be so exploitative
@@carololiveira4831 Ah I understand. I totally agree that a lot can be said with subtext, and an author doesn't need to (and sometimes shouldn't) specifically detail the violence. Thanks for taking the time to clarify!
Yes. The question I always ask myself when there is a scene like that in books I read is "Was this scene necessary? Did it help grow the story or was it there for the simple purpose of being there?"
The answer to basically all of these I feel is "It depends," or "Somewhere in between," or "Both." I don't think these really are as foundational questions as the video makes them out to be. Sure, it's good to have a grasp on these subjects, but they're not "need to be able to answer" questions. If anything, these questions are probably more worthwhile to answer on a book by book basis rather than as an analysis of a writer's overall outlook. Even the "What lines will you not cross" question is something that really does and should differ based on a bunch of variables. So why constrain yourself to feeling as if you need to have these answers? I think the true point to these questions should be that you need to have a purpose to the things you choose to do when writing... which, yeah, agreed.
Wow your thoughts on theme really surprised me but I can totally see how they would work. I kind of had that happen with me but I’m not writing yet, I was just planning and I saw some correlations between the three characters I had and their arcs. I don’t want to depend on it too much because it feels weaker in some characters than in others, so we’ll see.
thank you so much. i prefer your philosophy of writing to so much of what i've been seeing here on youtube. all this talk of you need one big theme, one big beautiful idea. yeah, well, when i'm peddlin' parables i s'pose. i can do it, when it fits, like when i wrote the butterfly or the cave. the butterfly, particularly, was extremely concise, as well, which i rail against being constrained by so frequently, but in the butterfly, which amazingly for me, even has a beginning middle aqnd end, oh yeah it's the whole package., but my constant need to do everything my own way didn't need to sabotage those pieces because all these enumewrated details were appropriate to what i was laying down there and how. i digress. it's nice to hear a bit of yes and instead of always with the thou shalt not. i know you wouldn't know it, but you make me much less angry than some of these well meaning folks just tryna make ends meet
Great video😊. I use writing to depict events from real life, yet the characters response to life events like loss or unforseen event is very important.
It's interesting because the set pieces and conflicts I imagine in my novel have clear themes. But as I explore and expand my understanding of the characters, I realize tese themes will evolve and perfects even change completely...
i have put a lot of thoughts into nambrands. this is a point where i object to the characterizations of mr king is name brand affiliation as a character trait. i use name brands only in reference to ips and irl locations
Movies are not in omniscient as he says. They are in something called third person objective. This is also a legitimate narrative mode for novels and worth learning about.
the Dresden Files by Jim Butcher uses brand names a lot, and it's great. The aged Volkswagon bug, preference for Coca cola. it lets you know a LOT about the MC based on your own notions
One thing about that "drawing the line": You are not writing to every single person on the planet. So if you are adding things that maybe the mainstream would say are "taboo" or "offensive", there's still a lot of people who seek for that as they are not getting the exploration anywhere else. Those are you audience, your fans, your readers. You try to create for them and find them. You don't need ot pander to the crowd that will take offense to your writing. And that means you don't do it: If your book is offensive, you need to make it clear it is so and that it's not for everyone.
'member that time bart helped the real creator of itchy of roger myers sr's itchy and scratchy property?" it drove the whole company out of business, but bart and lisa doubled down and pulled an all nighter, racing to the studio to save their favorite cartoon, only to find lester and eliza had already done it. fn brilliant! think of all the unresolved psychic tension!
or similarly, director's commentary for venture bros' season 1, midlife chrysalis: rusty says "oh,i never have told you boys about your mother- oh that's charlene, gotta go!" doc and jackson - oh you want that? can't have it!
Brand names can give the reader a connection, for instance if I describe the sweet maple tinge in a drop of Jack Daniels, then anyone who drinks whiskey can relate. I discovered a theme in my book but not sure if I should push it. Mostly I think books should entertain. That’s it. I like reading and I like the kind of prose that makes you hate how dumb you are. I love Shakespeare. If there was a happy medium, I’m there.
in american psycho the use of brand names as personality traits is entirely fitting for patrick bateman. it actually draws attention to his entirely constructed personhood. brilliant example!
Theme: the importance of finding and protecting your inner child. Complete accident, discovered by writing. Did not set out to speak to this topic. Now that I know, I need to conceal it further as not to bludgeon our poor reader.
Talking about should there be a line that one does not cross. I'm not a fan of horror but my ex was. I had to sit through the first 3 or 4 Saw movies (I don't even know how many there are.) I'm not saying whether one should or should not cross lines, but I felt those movies were just someone trying to come up with the most disturbing ways to make people 'not live' themselves. I felt that the writer must be a very disturbed individual. Not saying he or she is, but that's just what those movies made me feel.
I wish you talked more about genre and tropes as they relate to some of these things. In a Cozy Mystery - or even an Amateur Sleuth Mystery which is the broader category - coincidental moments are a standard trope that readers expect whereby the sleuth just happens to run into a suspect or informant to get a clue that moves things along. I've also seen this technique done in romance storylines but I don't read that genre enough to know if it's something the readers expect or are just comfortable with. In a romantic subplot, I've seen things like a person going to the beach "and coincidentally" bumping into the love interest when both are there with other people. This type of coincidence seems more like a setup in the context of a romance rather than the payoff coincidence of it being crucial to getting a clue in a mystery.
Well, I think I did say that coincidences tend to be more accepted in commercial fiction (like the genres you mentioned) rather than in upmarket fiction or literary fiction. I agree that both the examples you give are good ones; they also tend to appear more in the middle of the book rather than at the end, solving the main problem.
You bring up a good point. I'm an ex police detective and one of the reasons I can't stand most mystery novels or police dramas on TV is because they so unrealistically depend on these tropes that never happen in real life. Also I always find it funny that characters like Father Dowling and Murder She Wrote etc constantly have people around them die. The bodies pile up every other week in their lives!
I knew my primary themes at first (the science of morality), but as the story progressed, I was able to dial in on specifics of those themes, like righteous anger. What's the threshold for it? Is there even such a thing? And by showing the reader different (preferably nuanced) examples of righteous anger with its merits or lack thereof on display, it can become a reflective delve for the reader.
13:19 hmm, this one had me thinking about my story. Not about brands per se, but place names. Should my character be encountering San Francisco, or should it big “big, coastal city central”
create themes or don't, they'll get in there. as a writer you are a conduit for the collective unconscious. that's why they say you're dead. these are our dreams you're describing
I loved all your questions, but I personally disagree with your philosophy on themes. I tend to seek out the theme in the stories I’m writing, particularly when I get stuck. My weakness is ending my stories, so when I’m trying to discover where the story goes I find it really helpful to figure out exactly what I’m trying to say with my story. If I know why I’m going, I can deduce where I’m going.
This definitely assumes those coincidences are Positive. Pixar has a rule to not have positive councidences, or any that help the characters fix their problems. Nothing wrong with a few negative coincidences to add obstacles. And the Inciting Incident is nearly always a coincidence, since it is usually an event outside of the protagonist's control. The satellite antenna hitting Mark Watney in the Martian is what starts the story. But even if you are writing a disaster story where a family is escaping a flood or an earthquake (which is sure to have a lot of unfortunate coincidences directly impeding the family at the exact wrong time, e.g. the bridge collapses as they are crossing it, the flashlight goes out while they are using it, the car won't start as the boulder is tumbling toward them, etc) it would be better if the coincidences improve the story by highlightng faults within the characters. Say a character never plans ahead: the flashlight going out, them not having a knife on them, running out of food, these could all be things to show their lack of planning, and maybe by the end they have learned to plan ahead and it saves the day. Or you can have a character who hesitates in dangerous situations like a deer in the headlights. The coincidences can highlight their need for change, and so when they finally act to save someone's life at end, it is a pleasant surprise that demonstrates positive change. Point being, even a coincidence could be there for multiple reasons, not just to add tension or aid the plot.
Regarding morals. Authors can be separated into two groups: those who do moralize and those who think they don't. I tried to make a terrible MC (spiteful, manipulating, paranoid, never ever saying a word of truth, etc). But on the other hand MC is fighting much more horrific things than most people could imagine. I actually tried to take morality out of the equation, because of the other themes and for comedic purposes. But I realized that even if I abstain from judging something, I still have inner moral scales for weighting things. At least relatively to each other. Effects of these (sometimes subconscious) "moral scales" can found even in the grim-grim-dark-dark books. And if their morals differs from the reader's, it's sometimes even worse than blatant finger wagging (just my thoughts not the objective truth, obviously)
Yeah the themes should happen by accident. Totally agree. As far as pop culture references.....well my book is set in the 90's and is loaded with them. But yes I wanted to ground it in the time period. But it could make it seem date to some. But another question is does the reader have to get all the references? Especially when it's so easy to Google if they want to.
I agree I like a mix. I try to make my descriptions of grand scenes more elaborate/beautiful prose. My dialogue should reflect the character speaking. My action is usually more straight to the point.
I actually don’t think it’s possible to write a (well-crafted) novel without betraying a particular moral perspective, even if that perspective is subtle or complex or uncertain. So, kind of like themes, I think it’s important to be aware of what perspective is coming through, and then edit/revise according to what you feel works best.
I agree. Your own morality is very likely to come through in some way, unless you make a conscious effort to project a different one. And amorality can be a very specific moral stance.
I found the not bludgeoning with a moral message aspect to be difficult. The line, I feel, is if the character feels strongly about it and there's a balanced argument, then it's just representing a passionate point and debate. I made my book very moral but amoral by exploring passionately the good and bad sides of my moral arguments.
I often try to think about the difference between propaganda and good narrative section with philosophical conflict. Propaganda straw mans the opposite viewpoint Or doesn’t present it at all. As long as your character has their viewpoint tested through the events of the story and through compelling arguments with other characters you should be ok.
@juju10683 Absolutely! I think it's just harder when the argument is countering propaganda and well-trod arguments. Need a clear message but not to overstep.
Great points here. I think it's going to depend on the theme in question. Having characters that explore from different angles is essential, but usually a book is going to make clear right vs. wrong in some way. In my mind, the question is how convincing was the book? If, by the end, the book is telling me I shouldn't eat animals, have they convinced me? (spoiler, they haven't =P)
Round v. Flat characters...so true!!!! Damn, never thought of it that way. How many of King's characters, how many pages and investment into non-relevant characters... :D
Question about brands. Do I actually have the right to use well-known brands? I can't remember where I encountered this, but an author had a problem because the company whose brand he used accused him of illegally using the brand (the book was rather controversial, maybe that's why.) And another thing, what about public figures? Can I use them? For example, a girl is a fan of some actor, dreams to meet him, writes love letters to him, which she does not send. On the one hand, he is a public figure, but on the other hand, it is the use of someone else's image for profit without the consent of that person.
One thing I'll note here (as a person who did doctoral research on novel-writing as a form of moral praxis in the work of, among other, Milan Kundera)--whatever Kundera SAYS about his moral purpose in writing, his novels are fundamentally moral and about morality. You're supposed to be outraged at people who destroy history. You're supposed to be angry at people who get so carried away with an idea that they don't pay attention to what it does to people. You're supposed to love his father and lament the tragedy that befell him. What Kundera is ultimately dispassionate about is the reality of whether we can prevent tragedies like these from happening. Being angry about them, even knowing about them, won't prevent them--but we wouldn't be human without the capacity to mourn that inevitability or the harm that it brings.
Yes, excellent point. I think of the beginning of "The Book of Laughter and Forgetting," how the character who went against the party was airbrushed from the photos, and how that certainly seems lamentable. In the end, I guess that shows how difficult it is to avoid making the novel moral. But there are certainly degrees on the spectrum -- Kundera was attempting, at least, to avoid moral judgments, as opposed to someone who set out to make a point. He might be less didactic than other writers. What I was drawing from was what he said in "The Art of the Novel" and "Testaments Betrayed." Stuff like: "Suspending moral judgment is not the immorality of the novel; it is its morality ... Not that the novelist utterly denies that moral judgment is legitimate, but that he refuses it a place in the novel." And your doctoral research sounds fascinating! Who else did you bring to the table other than Kundera?
@@Bookfox Yeah those comments by Kundera really reveal his underlying concern--that by making art explicitly didactic, because of the power art has to shape our experience of the world, it can't help but become in some sense authoritarian. And his answer to that was hold on to ambiguity and avoid express judgment within the space of the text...which I think he feels was successful in his mission, but I disagree :) The other two authors I compared and contrasted his approach with were V. Nabokov and Arthur Koestler (the guy who wrote Darkness at Noon). I looked at their work through the lens of their experiences of displacement for political reasons and their subsequent adoption of the novel as a space of both moral action and political/civil service. And how conflicted all of them were about those preoccupations given the fraughtness of their own backgrounds in that regard.
On craft question 6, 'Should you include coincidences in your fiction?' are the incidents that occur throughout the media coincidences if they are properly set up? If characters posses certain qualities or motivations which make the instances coincidental, does that count? How much of a chance does an instance have to be in order for it to be a coincidence? I assume that if the characters are making decisions that are in line with their qualities and motivations then their actions which may be convenient for the plot may not necessarily be coincidence. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
I started writing this story about a girl who gets revenge for her dead brother. The goal was a contemporary thriller with Gothic undertones, with the FMC being a pugnacious entitled brat at the beginning and learning about the plight of others and being changed by the events into a more mature, much more empathic person. I thought my theme was going to be, like, revenge, or transformation, or the power of discovery, or whatever... Really, I didn't think about theme because I want to write a story I'd want to read. Turns out... The theme os about family, blood and chosen, And it is really odd to me because after losing my mom (my last relative), I wanted nothing to do with family in my writing. I don't really know what to make of that. Except... I'm 60% into Book 3 of this trilogy. Oh well. I guess I'll have to write a story about family to get a theme of revenge? ;)
Drawing the line: It’s an interesting question. I have a belief that your reader should viscerally hate your villains. If YOU hate your villains and need a shower after writing their scenes, even better. the only way to do that is if your villains do actually terrible things. I blame refusal to show villains at their worst for the proliferation of gray morality stories. No-one is truly good, no-one is truly evil? But the generalized truth is … if you can’t stand to write it, it’s probably evil. If you refuse to write it, then are you undercutting the power of your morality play? Sure, there are always caveats, but in general terms catharsis requires intense provocation. Just remember that a little genuine horror goes a long way.
i wrote a brief news report aired in the near future in which siri and alexa discuss the anticipated effects of the recent human exinction on the stock market, so...
Loving your channel. Curious if it's just me or anyone else find the subtle music in the background of this video to be anxiously distracting? I might be neurodivergent ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I always start with themes, the premise from which I start, that becomes the leitmotif is always a theme. Sure, there are other themes that emerge, but if I do not start with theme in mind, then it feels like I am just rambling and there is no story worth telling. That is also how I read, if the book feels like it is about nothing, then I lose interest fast and probably will DNF it.
I tend to disagree with you when it comes to theme. If you're new and you don't know what you're doing, all of the pitfalls of choosing a theme could apply, but experienced authors who understand those pitfalls should have no problem avoiding them. I think one of the reason why writers can gravitate towards the pitfalls of writing a theme is because we view theme as a message were trying to convey, but I think if writers shift the idea of theme to something we want to draw the readers attention to, we can create scenes with the theme in mind, and then it feels organic within the story, but it is carefully crafted like all other aspects of the novel/story. In the situation your describing, the writer runs the chance of totally missing opportunities to embrace the themes they have seeded in the beginning of their story. They could miss the chance to explore them for themselves in a way that makes the process of writing even more meaningful to them, and then by extension the reader. I think like everything in writing it's just a matter of practice. But I'd be curious to know what you're take on my take on theme is.
I think that overall, the idea that we both share is not to make the theme too heavyhanded. I propose to accomplish that by allowed the theme to rise organically through the writing of the work, while you're proposing that for accomplished authors, you can start with theme and still sidestep the pitfalls because of the author's talent. I mean sure, that's absolutely a possibility for an author with some experience under his/her belt.
oh yeah, well, i can do mood and artistic language at once and seperately to demonstrate contrast. that's really a false dichotomy, and one of my many, not merely one central, themes is synthesis. i want the proverbial down to earth relateable show teeming with magic robots (i'll not speak of having and eating cake, after all, what else is cake for?)
Why should a writer have any responsibility beyond good story telling in the genre they are interested in? I want to read stories with compelling characters and plots. But the people who want to read sermons on their favorite topics seem to have the loudest voices and the most unrelenting demands (to which the publishing world seems too inclined).
His definition of round characters and flat characters is incorrect. A flat character is not surface level and shallow. Rather a flat character has one defining characteristic. That character may actually still be deeply developed. Gollum from Lord of the Rings is a great example. His one defining trait is enslavement to the ring. Never the less he is deeply developed, having a well explored backstory and occasionally complicated emotional responses.
Entirely wrong about themes. That should be the very first thing every artist crystallizes. The creativity comes from expressing theme as a question or conundrum.
#3 to each his own, but I am a NO LINE kinda guy. Referencing the s3xu4l violence against y0un6 girlz, yes that is awful subject matter. It's also a reality, a human issue, and one that is much better explored through a book than... other means. The beauty of a novel, ideas, speech, is that it can't hurt a person, unless that person's mind is so frail they can't exercise critical thought. Oops, turns out that's a lot of people, especially right now =( Sometimes I hear someone say, "Whoever thought this up has a twisted mind!" All of us have twisted minds. The question is if/how we act on our thoughts.
For me, no one under 20 dies or gets abused. Done. Dont care. Shush. That god that has never been mentioned will totally swoop in. That historical based child actually went to live with a cousin. If one such is threatened, just chill, the wee one is safe. Tragic pasts are going to have to arrive kinda late...
Your novel should be exactly as you want to write it. I do not think there is a right way or a wrong way (with regards to all your points in this video). Every author will be different, every style, approach, dialogue, perspective, etc. Hemingway, Koontz, Heinlein, Salvatore, or L'Amour... just write and write and write and see where the story ends up. Appreciate all your tips and advice, though, especially on the technical stuff and suggested reading.
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My thought on coincidence is that it amplifies the manic texture of comedy, but undercuts almost anything meant to be serious.
Well said. I also like how Bookfox said it. At the BEGINNING is often great, for example, a premise is "What if someone with 6 months to live won the lottery?" Winning the lottery is rare, a huge coincidence, but it does happen. If we start the book that way, then we're exploring the consequences of that coincidence.
If, instead the story was about someone with a gambling problem who digs himself deeper and deeper in debt making bad decision after bad decision, and then instead of him having a revelation or changing his behavior in some way, he wins the lotter at the END... that's a fiat ex machina!
Coincidence can also be its own character if it is used as the antagonist. Imagine a theme of "You can't control what the universe throws at you, but you can control how you respond to it."
Given the total number of events in the world, coincidences are inevitable. To ruthlessly delete every possible one is just unrealistic. They just shouldn’t be major plot devices.
@@judithstrachan9399 That is the lifeblood of every soap opera ever. Anything that might maybe possibly coincidentally happen or has happened at any time in human history anywhere in the world will happen to one of 20 predetermined characters in a tiny neighbourhood within the next ten years.
Let me see here…I’m not a good writer and have trouble finishing anything, but here goes…
1. Entertainment, but in trance form. I love word play. As an artist, I like creating an immersive narrative with a periphery, and I like to leave some room for liminal space.
2. Movie. I see all my stories unfolding on a big screen. Yikes. I have no interest in writing a screenplay.
3. What not to show? I prefer to allude to certain things so the reader can fill in the missing words. Gratuitous anything, especially sex and violence is a mood killer for me. I find that sex scenes tend to interrupt a story more than keep it moving. The same goes for violence. But a look, a touch, a gesture, fine. Same for violence, except obviously more threatening or menacing. The exception to this rule is if the sex or violence (or anything) has a specific purpose. I have a scene in one of my stories that is deliberately violent and gory, and the purpose is to jar the protagonist into the reality that he is in a very dangerous world, whereas prior to that, he was merely wandering in an expansive oblivion. It’s preceded by a scene that’s very sensual, alluding to sex, so I won’t draw lines in the sand. My characters tell me what’s up.
4. Both round and flat, but my favorite are those the start flat and emerge round almost from the background. All of my characters have pretty deep backstories, which helps create a more organic dynamic. The little things can make a big difference as far as options when I’m writing.
5. Primarily moral, but amorality is helpful for juxtaposition or to highlight one character’s experience in whatever bigger story I’m writing. I love subtlety.
6. Coincidences? They emerge sometimes, but I try to be deliberate about foreshadowing-to an extent.
7. Anticipation works better for me because surprise is almost like coincidence, and can ring hollow.
8. Mostly no name brands or celebrities. The stories I write have no need for them, for the most part. I am writing an absurdist story that has some references, and the story I’m almost finished with definitely has 80’s song titles as easter eggs throughout. I tend more toward MacCarthy. The world building is essential. Most of my stories come from vivid or lucid dreams I have.
9. Themes? I guess I start with a concept that naturally contains some kind of tension, but typically, the theme clarifies as I write.
Great video.
i feel #3. writing actual sex happening feels too much like an anatomy textbook for me to like it. i don’t need to know exactly what character was where, that doesn’t convey any feeling.
I’ll allow a Coincidence to be a setup but not a payoff
Well said.
But don't eliminate them - life does contain coincidences. Random things happen, usually for no reason. Bad fiction perhaps, but true life.
@@jefftitterington7600 If a coincidence causes a problem you can leave it in. If it solves a problem you shouldn’t
@@juju10683 True - as long as you don't go overboard making things difficult. I remember watching a movie a long time ago where the protagonists were confronted with a major problem, but had a good plan and resources to combat it. Then everything fell apart due to a series of coincidences that ruined everything they tried and they had to adapt. Watching characters adapt is good, but the sheer number of things going wrong that were clearly meant solely to keep the characters from solving the problem too quickly ended up killing my suspension of disbelief.
@@juju10683 I'd say, a coincidence can solve a problem in a "yes, but" fashion, as long as it's not happening too late in the story.
#5 I LOVE your answer. One of the main reasons I read novels is to learn how to be a better person, to see characters in challenging (or not) situations, how they act, how they are rewarded or punished etc. and contemplate on how to be the best people we can be. Often this means the author is taking a clear stance on right vs. wrong. However, this can be done with counterpoints, characters who disagree, even succeed at times acting the "wrong" way etc. WITHOUT lecturing at me. I can't stand the author who patronizes and acts like their perspective is obvious and you must be a big dummy if you disagree.
I'm writing a novel that largely centers around the forests of the Adirondacks, and I needed a character to have the initials W.E. in his name. I happened on Ralph Waldo Emerson, and when I read about his philosphies on nature it made complete sense in relation to this character's own views of the world. And now the forest itself has become a character.
Right now I'm developing a novel idea, and already certain themes came to mind, like justice and the power of the mind. Your points about the risk of over-explaining and heavy-handed morality make much sense. As did the other topics you talked about here. Another very, very insightful video. Thank you, @Bookfox. Subbed.
I forget if Bookfox is more of a "discovery" writer, but that comment sounded like it. "The writing process" for me includes planning, outlining, structuring etc. and if I don't have a theme going into it, I think I'm gonna get lost!
Your explanation was by far one of the best videos that I have watched. Thank you.
My favorite book series doesn’t really have round characters, but the characters are SO MUCH FUN! Round characters are nice, but they’re not always necessary. I’m glad this video reminded me of that because I started feeling bad about the fact that my characters in the story I’m currently writing are flat as a piece of paper. I’m writing an allegorical fairytale.
- There is nothing like a surprise, that builds on anticipation.
- On themes: I'd make the distinction between exploratory and explanatory themes; the ones asking questions and the ones answering them.
I use exploratory themes for my development especially for characters. An example would be "The feeling of knowing everything there is to know about life and being thrust into new circumstances that question many of those formerly firmly held beliefs". It's an exploratory theme that stays with the character throughout the story and it doesn't have to come to any on-your-nose conclusions.
However I will take to heart, that I'll try to never let those themes shine through in my prose. I'm now very aware of that pitfall. Great writing advice as always!
Great video, thank you :) As to themes, I actually do decide my themes before writing the novel... I tie them very closely to the character arcs, and based on reader feedback it doesn't come across as preachy or like I'm bludgeoning them over the head. In my current novel, the thematic message is that everyone can be loved, no matter who they are or how they see themselves, and that's also the lesson my two protagonists learn. I've found that my favorite authors all use that technique for themes, and so I've adopted it as best as I can because I enjoy writing what I enjoy reading. 😄
Same perspective here. For me, the theme is what keeps me on target with my writing. I don't want to shove anything down the reader's throat, but I want to ensure every scene is serving its purpose in conveying a moral message. Love your theme. Mine is something like "Fight not those on the other side but those above who divide."
Themes: My novel started a decade ago as a morality tale theme against mass animal kidnappings from the wild (such as trapping hundreds of budgies to be shipped to pet markets). But over the years, as things happened in the story, it's grown to include many issues (from unintended consequences, bureaucracy’s foibles, Murphy’s Law, and the dangerous allure of passionate desire and belief). The title now includes "(A Cautionary Tale)" after the main title.
In my opinion, this is why knowing your theme is important. It sounds like you might have more than 1 book there! Otherwise, people may get confused. Not saying you can't do it all, but you might think about how cohesive the story is, esp. if its 10 years in the making!
I don't know who said it, nor the precise verbetum quote, but one big writer stated that you should write without determining a theme, as the theme will emerge on its own.
If by started a decade ago you mean you’ve been working on the same novel for over a decade, what you’ve described about themes sounds like you may have an “overwriting” problem, in which you have a multitude of different versions of the same story that you’re trying to make coexist instead of committing to just one version of it and cutting unnecessary content from prior iterations of the story and/or saving those for sequels that expand on the original premise, rather than trying to make multiple premises coexist.
This is actually a common problem that happens when a writer works on one story for many years. A good way to “test” for this problem is whether or not you can write a logline for the novel, likewise, if you can specify one primary theme that encapsulates the novel. If you find your story needs multiple loglines and themes to capture all of the “main” story, it may be a sign your novel isn’t really a standalone novel, but a series of novels and you’d have an easier time finishing it/bringing your vision to life if you give yourself the “breathing room” of multiple books to tell your story!
@@Sanakudou Here's my log line: "The story of a greedy but well-meaning alien who abducts half a million people from Earth, his AI boss who decides it must now conquer and manage a now-paranoid and pissed-off Earth to prevent interstellar war, and the self-doubting tech firm CEO who must defeat both but wonders if she should."
The story has grown from the simple abduction story it started out as. And yeah, it flows, and is consistent, at least from my perspective. It's actually two stories with two, ultimately-merging plots. The abduction raid is a quick Prologue that sets the stage for both story lines. Then, a framing story has the AI telling the CEO the framed story, in a bid to get her cooperation. Framing and framed plots alternate in different parts. A quick, snarky Epilogue ties the two plot lines together.
Time will tell; I need to find a beta reader to check my assumptions.
@@Sanakudou My logline is "This is the story of a greedy but well-meaning alien who abducts half a million people from Earth, his AI boss who decides it must now conquer and manage a paranoid and pissed-off Earth to prevent interstellar war, and the self-doubting tech firm CEO who must defeat both but wonders if she should."
The story and themes have evolved. From my admittedly biased perspective, everything seems to mesh well.
Time will tell. I need to find a reliable and knowledgeable beta reader.
For me, the moral/amoral question is tied to themes. I don't necessarily go for morality preaching, but more for an exploration of a part of a human condition, which is tied to the theme. The human condition could be connected to morality or separate from it. But the whole story is an exploration of it and thus, an exploration of the theme. I definitely go in knowing what the theme is, but I like having characters debate various elements of it, and often, various contrasting points of view are shown to have value. The best example I can use is Black Panther (the MCU film), where various points of view are examined regarding whether or not Wakanda should help groups of people that are in need/ that are victimized.
"What can writing do that films can't?" is exactly why a couple days ago I decided to focus on epistolary stories or, at the least, first person POV. I want to train myself NOT to think in a cinematic way.
I'd love to see a movie do something like "If on a winter's night a traveller..."
@@hardnewstakenharder That's exactly what I don't want to see. I'd prefer books do what books are best at and movies do what movies are best at.
Why pursue an MFA when we have you? Incredible💯
A lot of people are talking about when and how to use coincidences. Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with where in the book it takes place, but how it relates to the characters' goals - the coincidence should only ever hurt the hero(es), not help them. Imagine you're 85% of the way through a heist story - if the coincidence is the protagonist guesses the password to the vault, that would feel lazy and kill interest. If the coincidence was that the police decided to do a random inspection of the casino that day, that would add to the tension and I think readers would be much more okay with it.
7:47 THIS WHOLE VIDEO IS FANTASTIC!!!!
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it.
Some years ago, I audited a creative writing class to start myself writing again. I titled one of my short stories “At Janey’s Fountain.” I saved another student’s review of it. She wrote on her copy of my story, “I felt like I was there so much that when the story ended, I was surprised I wasn’t at Janey’s.” > All that to say maybe I'm a trance writer.
I completely agree with your take on themes. I feel like every advice video wants you to shove a theme in from the beginning, and that has never worked for me. In fairness, I am very much a pantser writer, so doing too much preplanning in any area kills my writing. I need to see it take shape organically and then revise to fix any issues.
I never intentionally write themes, but my stories always end up with one. For instance, my action/adventure about a fourteen year old girl and her five year old step brother ended up with a strong theme about depending on each other. My story about a crazy homeless guy, some children, and a police officer ended up being a story about beneficence. Apparently, my philosophy of life always takes over.
I don't know who said it, nor the precise verbetum quote, but one big writer stated that you should write without determining a theme, as the theme will emerge on its own.
As an editor for 40 years and as a writer of novels, I was very happy to run across this video of writing-craft questions and your discussion of them. It keeps things focused in a way that I've probably articulated in a fat, wordy way before. I'm bookmarking this vid to share with fellow writers and my writing clients. This is golden and informative without being all preachy. You're accessible.
Thank you for the kind words! Appreciate that, and thanks also for sharing the video.
the best thing to do with a suprise, is to turn it into anticipation in the scond readthrough.
This is a very interesting video. These questions should be asked by every author. It depends on your genre. What is suitable for your genre? It needs careful thought. Who is your audience? What is suitable for them?
There really is no right and wrong when it comes to writing a moral in your story. Some people prefer romantic art, other people naturalistic art. I’m definitely in the former camp. If I wanted to experience realism I just have to go to work and talk with people there.
'Themes, Madam? I know not themes!'
😂
Seriously though: when I spotted one in my last book I was impressed! Didn't know I could do that.
I agree on wanting my fiction to have virtues and morals, but also dislike finger wagging 😅
One thing I try to do is to show the morals that often come up in real life, that we see in life. Like the book I'm writing now, I want one of the messages to be kindness repays kindness. My MC is going to make a decision to still strive to be kind despite what happens to her, because she wants to be that sort of person. She sees kindness is a good thing for her as it is for others, but not in any grand way, but how it often is in life
A kind act to one random person isn't going to make you a millionaire, but it is nice to have a warm feeling in your heart seeing someone smile after what you did. And there have been times in my life where kindness I've put out has come back to me in surprising ways, but more common is that kind people get taken advantage of as well
So the choice my MC makes is that it's still worth it for her to be kind, despite the fact she's going to have to also accept she has to be on her guard from being taken advantage of, and she's probably not going to see any grand reward. But it feels good for her in her soul.
I know this all itself sounds like a lecture lol sorry, but it's just to say that's a moral I've seen in real life that usually has a natural conclusion reached, and it's an inner conclusion, you have to come to it yourself
Wow! What an excellent deep dive into these questions. I love how you are specific, but not overbearing in your advice. Regarding Brand Names, a recent read of Elin Hilderbrand's The Five Star Weekend comes to mind. It definitely evokes time and place. I write historical fiction, so it's fun to research brands popular in the 19th Century. Not all are easy, like Wells Fargo. I think what is key is making the reference feel natural, rather than like an obvious product placement in a movie or TV show. Does the brand show the wealth of the character? Also fun to make up names of companies. Keep up the great content.
I believe that Anticipation is a huge tool for a story's success. I'd make a video about this, but i don't have a following.
Anticipation is the number one thing that keeps people focused on the story even if tension is low. It allows the audience to play a game with the book or movie to see if they are right about what's to come. As long as the audience isn't right all of the time, it will work wonderfully.
Take Top Gun Maverick. Right away, we see that they are preparing something big (Maverick is getting suited up for something). You wait in suspense... You see that Ed Harris is coming and that he wants to cancel the flight test. Uhoh, conflict. Ticking Clock, they need to hurry. Will they succeed or will they not? You see that this is a test to push the bounds of aircraft speed. Will they beat the record? Maverick takes the roof off the security depot while Ed Harris is there. That pisses him off, the anticipated conflict is heightened. You see the ground control and Maverick lying to Harris' face. Anticipated conflict heightens. They beat the record, but the look on Maverick's face tells you immediately that he wants to go further. Hondo's reaction in the control room shows he's worried that Maverick will push it too far. You know what's going to happen, you sit at the edge of your seat. He pushes the speed, everyone is silent. You know something will go wrong. Tension is heightened. Then it goes wrong.
Later, you see the fallout with Ed Harris. Anticipation ends for this sequence.
In one scene, you have a a lot of anticipation escalating and being layered on top of itself. It keeps you engaged. And that is just in the first ten minutes.
Now take Joker 2. You are almost never shown anything ahead of time. You are almost never clued into the plot's progression. It doesn't keep you on the edge of your seat by teasing you about what's to come.
It uses surprise. The music scenes come as a surprise. The guards are nice, then mean, then nice at random (there is only one scene where you see conflict coming ahead of time). Harley is crazy, so her actions are largely surprising. Joker doesn't have a real arc, so his actions are both surprising and boring.
Then you have the stakes. It is about a court trial for the Joker. The stakes revolve around whether he will win or lose. Your emotional tie in for court dramas is about the jury verdict.
But what does Joker 2 do? (SPOILER) Right when he loses, someone blows up the courthouse and he escapes. This destroys the stakes sent up by the rest of the film. All in the name of Surprise.
If the courthouse gets blown up so he can escape, then it doesn't matter how any of the court scenes played out previously. And on a rewatch, you will find yourself not caring about how they question a witness or if Harley will distract Joker or anything. It is all meaningless.
Anticipation of conflict is easily one of the most poweful tools any writer can use. Although a little surprise helps with tension because it helps the reader to subconsciously understand that they won't be right about what they anticipate every single time, so it heightens tension.
Of course, it often needs to be more subtle then what the video implies. If the audience is told explicitly what will happen, then there is usually no point in reading or watching it.
Bookfox probably didn't have a following when he started doing videos. It's risky and takes much consistent effort, but not having a following at the start should not be a factor. To your success!
I only started making videos seriously in March of this year!
@@Bookfox You're already at 30.7K subscribers - that's a fast climb. One main cause: you deliver above average quality information and thoughtful stuff.
I think it’s very interesting you discuss coincidence right after morality. I wonder if this is intentional?
The book that came to mind as the exception to the general rule of “no coincidence at the end” is Tropic of Cancer by Henry Miller. His route out of Paris is pure coincidence, but tied to a radical style and morality. Does this justify the aesthetic choice? I would say yes, it’s a joyous moment in the book. And it feels true.
After all, rules are markers, but creativity sometimes comes in the form of a broken rule
Just a coincidence, ha ha.
But you're right, sometimes it's the right choice to break a writing rule.
I like to write down general themes for my stories, but I always write them as questions that I don't have an answer to. If there's a "right" or "clear" answer, or I know exactly what i want to say about a topic, I won't use it as a theme for a novel since it makes for a much less interesting writing (and reading) experience!
Love the first one about language being a trance, or entertainment. I'm currently writing a Midwestern Gothic novel, and I tend to get into the weeds of artistic descriptions. Currently on my third draft, and I've been focusing on making the descriptions of the world feel more like a trance since I want to capture that sort of liminal kenopsia that the characters inhabit but be less artistic with the progression of the story when the characters interact or need to move the plot forward.
Great plug for pantsing about the theme emerging thru the story being explored ie, pantsing let's a writer explore the 'paranormal' energy in what's been plotted
Themes: my current novel began as an illustration that seemed to hint at a rather simple inversion of expectation. I layered on a rather standard “book by its cover” theme. But i never leaned into them. I said, these are inspiration themes. Then i spent 20y finding my characters, their voices, and so on. I discover new and deeper themes as the work progresses. The first themes are still there … but they’ve faded to subtext, i guess.
I think what you might be warning on is focusing on the theme and not the story.
I’m personally thinking I must be an odd writer. I’m telling my characters life stories. It just so happens they tend to have rather … dramatic lives. Hah! The story is lived, not assembled … at least in my mind.
There are different kinds of coincidences, and I think many of them are fine, as long as they aren't plot destroying coincidences. The main character, for instance might meet someone in the beginning who is tied to the antagonist, but not realize it until they meet the antagonist. There may be an item placed near the beginning of the story that becomes important later, but only as a reminder of something. Your Main Character could even realize at the last minute before the climax that there is a connection to something in her past that matters now. So, in order to truly use coincidences well, I think it might be a good idea to highlight what exactly they are and how to use them.
Number two is funny because I actually have an illustration degree so I started with graphic novels but I kept getting frustrated before I realized it wasn’t the right medium for those stories 😅😹
i'm new to your content, but it just seems so fresh and helpful!!
like, i was pleasantly surprised that those questions are really good and i never thought of them and nobody really talks about them
I have found my themes during the character exploration process and when I'm settling on a premise. Like, I knew Family was going to be a theme of the series I'm writing because it centers around a character's identity as the child of a courtesan. But that was it. As I created my other characters I made sure I thought about their Family systems and found other themes linked to their values, like Duty vs. Desires, Found Family, Community vs. Individual, etc. It was a launching pad for finding other themes I didn't realize were there while letting go of themes I thought were.
#7 I need to think about this one hard because the name of my book is "The Magi's Secret." I think that title conveys a lot about the type of book it is, a fantasy worldview with a lot of questions/mystery for the remainder series. The "secret" that drives book 1 is known by ~15% mark, but it is doubted and challenged to varying degrees by different characters, AND at the climax of the book we get the "surprise" that the reader could have seen coming but wouldn't know for sure. Like many things, it's about balance I guess!
i get a kick doing every single thing i was ever told not to. that's my fave thing about writing, but when you add it all up, something's gotta do something. are you conveying what you intend to, whatever that is, or not?
Impeccable timing. Just perfect for my commute.
My understanding of brand names is that if you don't portray them badly, you're fine. Example is in the Janet Evanovich Nicolas Fox/Kate O'Hare series characters in a scene are drinking Tim Hortons coffee and one says that's the best coffee they've ever had. Tim Hortons won't have a problem with that, but if you have another character say it makes a competitor's coffee taste like garbage you might have a meeting with that company's legal team
I think your take on themes is very interesting. I've been grappling with the idea of themes for years, now, and I could never really wrap my head around the idea that a theme is necessary. Most concepts that authors preach have eventually come to make sense to me, but the theme concept is not one of them. I've spent many hours trying to incorporate it into my story, but it's always seemed a bit contrived.
What a fantastic video. Love listenable writerly content, but, respectfully, the vast majority of it is Writing 101. Very nice to find some more advanced stuff out here.
The theme of my WIP from the get-go was to explore the space between Fame, Notoriety, and Obscurity. When is one of these things better than the others?
I think "What good is this scene of explicit sexual violence against girls doing for my book?" is a question many, many authors (especially historical fiction authors) fail to ask themselves, honestly
Seems like a "kick the dog" moment notched up to 11. In other words, a very good way to show what an awful person someone is. In historical fiction, it's probably a good way to show the disparity between sexes, the lack of power women/girls used to have compared to today. I agree, authors should ask the question.
@@PhoenixCrown That’s always what is used to justify it, but my argument is that you can allude to it without showing it so raw and explicitly. Use what is not shown to haunt the reader instead of using the violence to shock. Sometimes those scenes feel almost voyeuristic. Sexual violence against women has a deep, layered meaning, it’s a very particular form of torture, and I feel like it often becomes a cheap and cruel tool for worldbuilding and shock value.
I’m not saying it’s a subject to never be touched in writing. In his book Beartown, Fredrik Backman has an event of sexual violence at the core of the story, he shows the actual scene of it and the events afterward, and it is approached in a heartbreaking, gut-punching, amazing way I had never seen before (but then again Backman approaches everything wonderfully).
@@carololiveira4831I asked myself how many of my favourite pieces of media (movies, books, tv shows) have that type of scene, and the answer is genuinely zero. It is absolutely unnecessary for a good work of art to be so exploitative
@@carololiveira4831 Ah I understand. I totally agree that a lot can be said with subtext, and an author doesn't need to (and sometimes shouldn't) specifically detail the violence. Thanks for taking the time to clarify!
Yes. The question I always ask myself when there is a scene like that in books I read is "Was this scene necessary? Did it help grow the story or was it there for the simple purpose of being there?"
The answer to basically all of these I feel is "It depends," or "Somewhere in between," or "Both." I don't think these really are as foundational questions as the video makes them out to be. Sure, it's good to have a grasp on these subjects, but they're not "need to be able to answer" questions. If anything, these questions are probably more worthwhile to answer on a book by book basis rather than as an analysis of a writer's overall outlook. Even the "What lines will you not cross" question is something that really does and should differ based on a bunch of variables. So why constrain yourself to feeling as if you need to have these answers? I think the true point to these questions should be that you need to have a purpose to the things you choose to do when writing... which, yeah, agreed.
Wow your thoughts on theme really surprised me but I can totally see how they would work. I kind of had that happen with me but I’m not writing yet, I was just planning and I saw some correlations between the three characters I had and their arcs. I don’t want to depend on it too much because it feels weaker in some characters than in others, so we’ll see.
your comments on anticipation and surprise was a great point. great video as always
thank you so much. i prefer your philosophy of writing to so much of what i've been seeing here on youtube. all this talk of you need one big theme, one big beautiful idea. yeah, well, when i'm peddlin' parables i s'pose. i can do it, when it fits, like when i wrote the butterfly or the cave. the butterfly, particularly, was extremely concise, as well, which i rail against being constrained by so frequently, but in the butterfly, which amazingly for me, even has a beginning middle aqnd end, oh yeah it's the whole package., but my constant need to do everything my own way didn't need to sabotage those pieces because all these enumewrated details were appropriate to what i was laying down there and how. i digress. it's nice to hear a bit of yes and instead of always with the thou shalt not. i know you wouldn't know it, but you make me much less angry than some of these well meaning folks just tryna make ends meet
Great video😊. I use writing to depict events from real life, yet the characters response to life events like loss or unforseen event is very important.
For the 2nd question, I’m doing it cause it’s cheaper and it feels less risky
It's interesting because the set pieces and conflicts I imagine in my novel have clear themes. But as I explore and expand my understanding of the characters, I realize tese themes will evolve and perfects even change completely...
Thank you 🙏🏻🙏🏻
i have put a lot of thoughts into nambrands. this is a point where i object to the characterizations of mr king is name brand affiliation as a character trait. i use name brands only in reference to ips and irl locations
Movies are not in omniscient as he says. They are in something called third person objective. This is also a legitimate narrative mode for novels and worth learning about.
the Dresden Files by Jim Butcher uses brand names a lot, and it's great. The aged Volkswagon bug, preference for Coca cola. it lets you know a LOT about the MC based on your own notions
One thing about that "drawing the line": You are not writing to every single person on the planet. So if you are adding things that maybe the mainstream would say are "taboo" or "offensive", there's still a lot of people who seek for that as they are not getting the exploration anywhere else. Those are you audience, your fans, your readers. You try to create for them and find them. You don't need ot pander to the crowd that will take offense to your writing. And that means you don't do it: If your book is offensive, you need to make it clear it is so and that it's not for everyone.
'member that time bart helped the real creator of itchy of roger myers sr's itchy and scratchy property?" it drove the whole company out of business, but bart and lisa doubled down and pulled an all nighter, racing to the studio to save their favorite cartoon, only to find lester and eliza had already done it. fn brilliant! think of all the unresolved psychic tension!
aristotle would plotz!
or similarly, director's commentary for venture bros' season 1, midlife chrysalis: rusty says "oh,i never have told you boys about your mother- oh that's charlene, gotta go!" doc and jackson - oh you want that? can't have it!
Very interesting points to think about, thank you 💖
Brand names can give the reader a connection, for instance if I describe the sweet maple tinge in a drop of Jack Daniels, then anyone who drinks whiskey can relate. I discovered a theme in my book but not sure if I should push it. Mostly I think books should entertain. That’s it. I like reading and I like the kind of prose that makes you hate how dumb you are. I love Shakespeare. If there was a happy medium, I’m there.
in american psycho the use of brand names as personality traits is entirely fitting for patrick bateman. it actually draws attention to his entirely constructed personhood. brilliant example!
Theme: the importance of finding and protecting your inner child. Complete accident, discovered by writing. Did not set out to speak to this topic. Now that I know, I need to conceal it further as not to bludgeon our poor reader.
Talking about should there be a line that one does not cross. I'm not a fan of horror but my ex was. I had to sit through the first 3 or 4 Saw movies (I don't even know how many there are.) I'm not saying whether one should or should not cross lines, but I felt those movies were just someone trying to come up with the most disturbing ways to make people 'not live' themselves. I felt that the writer must be a very disturbed individual. Not saying he or she is, but that's just what those movies made me feel.
I wish you talked more about genre and tropes as they relate to some of these things. In a Cozy Mystery - or even an Amateur Sleuth Mystery which is the broader category - coincidental moments are a standard trope that readers expect whereby the sleuth just happens to run into a suspect or informant to get a clue that moves things along. I've also seen this technique done in romance storylines but I don't read that genre enough to know if it's something the readers expect or are just comfortable with. In a romantic subplot, I've seen things like a person going to the beach "and coincidentally" bumping into the love interest when both are there with other people. This type of coincidence seems more like a setup in the context of a romance rather than the payoff coincidence of it being crucial to getting a clue in a mystery.
Well, I think I did say that coincidences tend to be more accepted in commercial fiction (like the genres you mentioned) rather than in upmarket fiction or literary fiction.
I agree that both the examples you give are good ones; they also tend to appear more in the middle of the book rather than at the end, solving the main problem.
You bring up a good point. I'm an ex police detective and one of the reasons I can't stand most mystery novels or police dramas on TV is because they so unrealistically depend on these tropes that never happen in real life. Also I always find it funny that characters like Father Dowling and Murder She Wrote etc constantly have people around them die. The bodies pile up every other week in their lives!
I knew my primary themes at first (the science of morality), but as the story progressed, I was able to dial in on specifics of those themes, like righteous anger. What's the threshold for it? Is there even such a thing? And by showing the reader different (preferably nuanced) examples of righteous anger with its merits or lack thereof on display, it can become a reflective delve for the reader.
Round -vs- flat characters. How would you characterize the characters in Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead?
13:19 hmm, this one had me thinking about my story. Not about brands per se, but place names. Should my character be encountering San Francisco, or should it big “big, coastal city central”
what we cannot face will come out in other ways
create themes or don't, they'll get in there. as a writer you are a conduit for the collective unconscious. that's why they say you're dead. these are our dreams you're describing
I loved all your questions, but I personally disagree with your philosophy on themes. I tend to seek out the theme in the stories I’m writing, particularly when I get stuck. My weakness is ending my stories, so when I’m trying to discover where the story goes I find it really helpful to figure out exactly what I’m trying to say with my story. If I know why I’m going, I can deduce where I’m going.
This definitely assumes those coincidences are Positive. Pixar has a rule to not have positive councidences, or any that help the characters fix their problems. Nothing wrong with a few negative coincidences to add obstacles.
And the Inciting Incident is nearly always a coincidence, since it is usually an event outside of the protagonist's control. The satellite antenna hitting Mark Watney in the Martian is what starts the story.
But even if you are writing a disaster story where a family is escaping a flood or an earthquake (which is sure to have a lot of unfortunate coincidences directly impeding the family at the exact wrong time, e.g. the bridge collapses as they are crossing it, the flashlight goes out while they are using it, the car won't start as the boulder is tumbling toward them, etc) it would be better if the coincidences improve the story by highlightng faults within the characters.
Say a character never plans ahead: the flashlight going out, them not having a knife on them, running out of food, these could all be things to show their lack of planning, and maybe by the end they have learned to plan ahead and it saves the day. Or you can have a character who hesitates in dangerous situations like a deer in the headlights. The coincidences can highlight their need for change, and so when they finally act to save someone's life at end, it is a pleasant surprise that demonstrates positive change. Point being, even a coincidence could be there for multiple reasons, not just to add tension or aid the plot.
Yes, good point! Negative coincidences don't solve a problem, and therefore aren't an issue.
Regarding morals. Authors can be separated into two groups: those who do moralize and those who think they don't.
I tried to make a terrible MC (spiteful, manipulating, paranoid, never ever saying a word of truth, etc). But on the other hand MC is fighting much more horrific things than most people could imagine. I actually tried to take morality out of the equation, because of the other themes and for comedic purposes. But I realized that even if I abstain from judging something, I still have inner moral scales for weighting things. At least relatively to each other.
Effects of these (sometimes subconscious) "moral scales" can found even in the grim-grim-dark-dark books. And if their morals differs from the reader's, it's sometimes even worse than blatant finger wagging
(just my thoughts not the objective truth, obviously)
Yeah the themes should happen by accident. Totally agree. As far as pop culture references.....well my book is set in the 90's and is loaded with them. But yes I wanted to ground it in the time period. But it could make it seem date to some. But another question is does the reader have to get all the references? Especially when it's so easy to Google if they want to.
Trance and entertainment are both important :D
I agree I like a mix. I try to make my descriptions of grand scenes more elaborate/beautiful prose. My dialogue should reflect the character speaking. My action is usually more straight to the point.
I actually don’t think it’s possible to write a (well-crafted) novel without betraying a particular moral perspective, even if that perspective is subtle or complex or uncertain. So, kind of like themes, I think it’s important to be aware of what perspective is coming through, and then edit/revise according to what you feel works best.
I agree. Your own morality is very likely to come through in some way, unless you make a conscious effort to project a different one. And amorality can be a very specific moral stance.
I found the not bludgeoning with a moral message aspect to be difficult. The line, I feel, is if the character feels strongly about it and there's a balanced argument, then it's just representing a passionate point and debate. I made my book very moral but amoral by exploring passionately the good and bad sides of my moral arguments.
I often try to think about the difference between propaganda and good narrative section with philosophical conflict. Propaganda straw mans the opposite viewpoint Or doesn’t present it at all. As long as your character has their viewpoint tested through the events of the story and through compelling arguments with other characters you should be ok.
@juju10683 Absolutely! I think it's just harder when the argument is countering propaganda and well-trod arguments. Need a clear message but not to overstep.
Great points here. I think it's going to depend on the theme in question. Having characters that explore from different angles is essential, but usually a book is going to make clear right vs. wrong in some way. In my mind, the question is how convincing was the book? If, by the end, the book is telling me I shouldn't eat animals, have they convinced me? (spoiler, they haven't =P)
Round v. Flat characters...so true!!!! Damn, never thought of it that way. How many of King's characters, how many pages and investment into non-relevant characters... :D
Yep The Stand could have been 500 pages shorter and much better
Question about brands. Do I actually have the right to use well-known brands? I can't remember where I encountered this, but an author had a problem because the company whose brand he used accused him of illegally using the brand (the book was rather controversial, maybe that's why.) And another thing, what about public figures? Can I use them? For example, a girl is a fan of some actor, dreams to meet him, writes love letters to him, which she does not send. On the one hand, he is a public figure, but on the other hand, it is the use of someone else's image for profit without the consent of that person.
I’d like to see that answered, too.
One thing I'll note here (as a person who did doctoral research on novel-writing as a form of moral praxis in the work of, among other, Milan Kundera)--whatever Kundera SAYS about his moral purpose in writing, his novels are fundamentally moral and about morality. You're supposed to be outraged at people who destroy history. You're supposed to be angry at people who get so carried away with an idea that they don't pay attention to what it does to people. You're supposed to love his father and lament the tragedy that befell him. What Kundera is ultimately dispassionate about is the reality of whether we can prevent tragedies like these from happening. Being angry about them, even knowing about them, won't prevent them--but we wouldn't be human without the capacity to mourn that inevitability or the harm that it brings.
Also--great video as always! What a gift to the community.
Yes, excellent point. I think of the beginning of "The Book of Laughter and Forgetting," how the character who went against the party was airbrushed from the photos, and how that certainly seems lamentable. In the end, I guess that shows how difficult it is to avoid making the novel moral.
But there are certainly degrees on the spectrum -- Kundera was attempting, at least, to avoid moral judgments, as opposed to someone who set out to make a point. He might be less didactic than other writers. What I was drawing from was what he said in "The Art of the Novel" and "Testaments Betrayed." Stuff like: "Suspending moral judgment is not the immorality of the novel; it is its morality ... Not that the novelist utterly denies that moral judgment is legitimate, but that he refuses it a place in the novel."
And your doctoral research sounds fascinating! Who else did you bring to the table other than Kundera?
@@Bookfox Yeah those comments by Kundera really reveal his underlying concern--that by making art explicitly didactic, because of the power art has to shape our experience of the world, it can't help but become in some sense authoritarian. And his answer to that was hold on to ambiguity and avoid express judgment within the space of the text...which I think he feels was successful in his mission, but I disagree :)
The other two authors I compared and contrasted his approach with were V. Nabokov and Arthur Koestler (the guy who wrote Darkness at Noon). I looked at their work through the lens of their experiences of displacement for political reasons and their subsequent adoption of the novel as a space of both moral action and political/civil service. And how conflicted all of them were about those preoccupations given the fraughtness of their own backgrounds in that regard.
On craft question 6, 'Should you include coincidences in your fiction?' are the incidents that occur throughout the media coincidences if they are properly set up? If characters posses certain qualities or motivations which make the instances coincidental, does that count? How much of a chance does an instance have to be in order for it to be a coincidence? I assume that if the characters are making decisions that are in line with their qualities and motivations then their actions which may be convenient for the plot may not necessarily be coincidence. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Nicholson Baker, not Nicholas--read him, he's great. THE MEZZANINE is amazing, as is HUMAN SMOKE.
I started writing this story about a girl who gets revenge for her dead brother. The goal was a contemporary thriller with Gothic undertones, with the FMC being a pugnacious entitled brat at the beginning and learning about the plight of others and being changed by the events into a more mature, much more empathic person. I thought my theme was going to be, like, revenge, or transformation, or the power of discovery, or whatever... Really, I didn't think about theme because I want to write a story I'd want to read. Turns out... The theme os about family, blood and chosen, And it is really odd to me because after losing my mom (my last relative), I wanted nothing to do with family in my writing. I don't really know what to make of that. Except... I'm 60% into Book 3 of this trilogy. Oh well. I guess I'll have to write a story about family to get a theme of revenge? ;)
Drawing the line: It’s an interesting question. I have a belief that your reader should viscerally hate your villains. If YOU hate your villains and need a shower after writing their scenes, even better. the only way to do that is if your villains do actually terrible things. I blame refusal to show villains at their worst for the proliferation of gray morality stories. No-one is truly good, no-one is truly evil?
But the generalized truth is … if you can’t stand to write it, it’s probably evil.
If you refuse to write it, then are you undercutting the power of your morality play?
Sure, there are always caveats, but in general terms catharsis requires intense provocation.
Just remember that a little genuine horror goes a long way.
I have your courses. Which ones teach anticipation narrative? Do you know any other books that teach anticipation narrative?
I believe I discuss it in a few courses, including Writing Techniques and the Novel course.
Daaamn.
thx, for this video :)
i wrote a brief news report aired in the near future in which siri and alexa discuss the anticipated effects of the recent human exinction on the stock market, so...
Loving your channel. Curious if it's just me or anyone else find the subtle music in the background of this video to be anxiously distracting? I might be neurodivergent ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I always start with themes, the premise from which I start, that becomes the leitmotif is always a theme. Sure, there are other themes that emerge, but if I do not start with theme in mind, then it feels like I am just rambling and there is no story worth telling. That is also how I read, if the book feels like it is about nothing, then I lose interest fast and probably will DNF it.
"Think about a novel that talk about pagers constantly"
Scream in lebonanies.
Sorry, but that sentence made me laugh a lot.
what evils lurk in the hearts of men? the shadow knows
I tend to disagree with you when it comes to theme. If you're new and you don't know what you're doing, all of the pitfalls of choosing a theme could apply, but experienced authors who understand those pitfalls should have no problem avoiding them. I think one of the reason why writers can gravitate towards the pitfalls of writing a theme is because we view theme as a message were trying to convey, but I think if writers shift the idea of theme to something we want to draw the readers attention to, we can create scenes with the theme in mind, and then it feels organic within the story, but it is carefully crafted like all other aspects of the novel/story. In the situation your describing, the writer runs the chance of totally missing opportunities to embrace the themes they have seeded in the beginning of their story. They could miss the chance to explore them for themselves in a way that makes the process of writing even more meaningful to them, and then by extension the reader.
I think like everything in writing it's just a matter of practice. But I'd be curious to know what you're take on my take on theme is.
I think that overall, the idea that we both share is not to make the theme too heavyhanded. I propose to accomplish that by allowed the theme to rise organically through the writing of the work, while you're proposing that for accomplished authors, you can start with theme and still sidestep the pitfalls because of the author's talent. I mean sure, that's absolutely a possibility for an author with some experience under his/her belt.
I hope the writers for the Rings of Power are watching these videos
oh yeah, well, i can do mood and artistic language at once and seperately to demonstrate contrast. that's really a false dichotomy, and one of my many, not merely one central, themes is synthesis. i want the proverbial down to earth relateable show teeming with magic robots (i'll not speak of having and eating cake, after all, what else is cake for?)
i guess i go more by what's called for
oh, i see, you got there. i guess, now i think of it, that's the gotcha style of a tuber
Why should a writer have any responsibility beyond good story telling in the genre they are interested in? I want to read stories with compelling characters and plots. But the people who want to read sermons on their favorite topics seem to have the loudest voices and the most unrelenting demands (to which the publishing world seems too inclined).
thank you for not repeating the sacrilegious line itself lol
It was incredibly offensive.
His definition of round characters and flat characters is incorrect. A flat character is not surface level and shallow. Rather a flat character has one defining characteristic. That character may actually still be deeply developed.
Gollum from Lord of the Rings is a great example. His one defining trait is enslavement to the ring. Never the less he is deeply developed, having a well explored backstory and occasionally complicated emotional responses.
Entirely wrong about themes. That should be the very first thing every artist crystallizes. The creativity comes from expressing theme as a question or conundrum.
#3 to each his own, but I am a NO LINE kinda guy. Referencing the s3xu4l violence against y0un6 girlz, yes that is awful subject matter. It's also a reality, a human issue, and one that is much better explored through a book than... other means.
The beauty of a novel, ideas, speech, is that it can't hurt a person, unless that person's mind is so frail they can't exercise critical thought. Oops, turns out that's a lot of people, especially right now =(
Sometimes I hear someone say, "Whoever thought this up has a twisted mind!" All of us have twisted minds. The question is if/how we act on our thoughts.
For me, no one under 20 dies or gets abused. Done. Dont care. Shush. That god that has never been mentioned will totally swoop in. That historical based child actually went to live with a cousin. If one such is threatened, just chill, the wee one is safe. Tragic pasts are going to have to arrive kinda late...
Writing about sexually abusing boys is okay? Huh.
About sexualy abusing boys - no, about sexual abuse of boys - yes.
Your novel should be exactly as you want to write it.
I do not think there is a right way or a wrong way (with regards to all your points in this video).
Every author will be different, every style, approach, dialogue, perspective, etc.
Hemingway, Koontz, Heinlein, Salvatore, or L'Amour... just write and write and write and see where the story ends up.
Appreciate all your tips and advice, though, especially on the technical stuff and suggested reading.