Mystery Faith (part 1 of 2): Dr. Richard Carrier
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Richard Carrier is a historian, philosopher, author and atheist activist. In this conversation with Seth Andrews, Carrier speaks about being a "mythicist," the authors of scripture, the various Bible canons, and more.
PART 2 - David Fitzgerald: • Mystery Faith (part 2 ...
Awesome interview Seth! Richard Carrier is brilliant.
Everyone needs to watch this video. Its mind boggling to me that people don't see the holes and fallacies and the absolute lack of evidence for the existence of Jesus
+itsasin1969 Diego agrees with you. He wrote 2 sentences... was that too much to read?
Or maybe you're just backing up his assertion, which seems weird to do as a reply to his comment instead of as a reply to the video. In any case, the caps-locked "ZERO"s set the wrong tone.
+Diego Ruiz They either don't want to or they simply don't care. They insist that America is founded on christianity... That should be a hint.
+Diego Ruiz I think it's pretty fair to say that the cat's out of the bag nowadays.
But I don't think it's _necessarily_ either a boo or hooray fact either for atheists or for Christians. Since in practice Christianity is largely about an "imaginary friend" anyway, the news that the original Christ was the imaginary friend _par excellence_ could be taken as a cue to return to the roots of genuine Christianity. IOW, they could just say, "yeah, he's a thoroughgoingly spiritual being who really exists and really appeared - and still appears - in visions". Admittedly, that's not going to be a majority position, but it might be a majority position for any form of Christianity that survives through the coming centuries.
And why not, indeed? Perfectly fine, in my book. Nothing wrong with hallucinatory imaginary friends, so long as you don't get any on the furniture.
Then, from the atheist point of view, actually part of the resistance to mythicism has come from atheists who, in an attack dog frame of mind, think that mythicists are queering the pitch, that mythicism is such a bizarre idea it's a distraction in the fight against Christianity (i.e. so ridiculous that it's easy for the auld enemy to pooh-pooh). But I think as the consensus shifts, this objection will have less force. And I think the evidence (as Carrier's books show) is pretty strong - at the very least, it's absolutely not an irrational position, and it can be supported pretty well by the evidence, at least as well as the historicist position (and actually, better).
On the other hand, for atheists who are excited by mythicism because they think it will "destroy" Christianity - well, maybe not. Not only might Christians take the tack I outlined above (accept the original mythicist form as the real form), they can also go with the existential route that's already been taken by many serious, philosophically-minded Christians throughout much of the 20th century.
And of course, many Christians, and probably the majority, will just ignore it or rationalize it - stick to their guns (again, even if mythicism seems more likely on the whole, turning the tables, and by the very nature of the evidence, historicism is still _somewhat_ rationally supportable).
I think the form of Christianity that's most likely to be strongly affected is Catholicism, which does base its claim very much on the historical lineage. But even with Catholicism, Gnosticism is so much a part of its roots, that it's quite possible that a future Pope could re-adjust Catholicism to be more in line with the gnostic aspect of its roots, without too much bother.
+Diego Ruiz Many of them do see it. Just a few months ago, I got into a debate about this with a street preacher who was standing outside a subway station as I was leaving. After about 45 minutes of conversation, he more or less admitted that a couple of the arguments that he was using on people on the street had been debunked by various atheists (Matt Dilahunty and Richard Carrier were two of the names he mentioned) and that he was aware that those arguments had been debunked and that he was using them anyway. He went as far as to tell me that he had SEEN the debunking of the arguments and was using them anyway.When I pointed out this was intellectually dishonest and asked him why he did it anyway, he outright told me that he KNEW it was dishonest and that the reason he did it was because the arguments he was making worked on many people whether they were true or not. Basically, he admitted to being a "Liar 4 Jesus."Many of the followers of the religions don't understand that the arguments they are making are fallacious and have been debunked. But the leaders? The people they are getting these arguments from? They DO know. But they perpetuate the arguments anyway. People like Matt Slick and Ken Ham can have an argument be completely debunked one week in a public debate and be using the same argument again (and encouraging their followers to do so) the next and they seem to have no moral qualms about it.
ThatGuy182545
I see this all the time. When debating evolution, I demonstrate one argument to be wrong and I'm just served another one with no acknowledgement that I destroyed the first one. When debating my fundamentalist Christian parents, I've heard the same objection three times ("If people came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"), and I doubt they remember the answer or have learned not to use this argument, even after the third time.
This guy knows what he is talking about.
Not really. Whats does he actually say? Christianity adopted some of the religious ideas of other religions? That some manuscipts have been discounted as fraudulent? Neither is a new idea. And neither has anything to do if whether or not Jesus actually existed. He goes on about a lot of nothing and never actually presents any real verifiable evidence for or against the existence of a real person.
As best I can tell this guy is pandering to people predisposed to agree with him and not much more.
As best as you can tell is a very low bar indeed. Have you actually read his books? Have you listened to any of his lectures where he actually gives that data that forms the basis of his conclusions? He proposes that the writings of Paul are strictly revelatory, which anyone can read if they go to the bible. And therefore, Paul doesn't attest to the life and corporeal existence of Jesus. The four gospels are anonymous, with authorship being a matter of church tradition. This is also freely admitted by every single mainstream biblical scholar. And we have no sources for jesus outside of the bible. None. That's pretty damning, if one were attempting to prove the historicity of jesus.
May Dr. Carrier never lose his hair!
One of your best ever Seth! can't wait for part 2!
Such a great interview! I enjoy Dr. Carrier's clear explanations. :) A few books that I found enlightening, as well, are: 'The Psychedelic Gospels' (By Brown & Brown); And, 'The Dead Sea Scrolls and The Christian Myth', along with, 'The Mushroom and The Cross', (Both by John M. Allegro). I'm excited to start reading Dr. Carrier's books! Thank you for interviewing him! :)
Funny how not one of the negative comments have anything whatsoever to do with the actual content, but consist entirely of ad hominem attacks on Dr. Carrier AND the creators of this channel. Gee, could that be because they can't come up with anything FACTUAL to challenge you guys on?
Jennifer Brewer Exactly! That's what happens when the truth angers people. They get defensive and attack!!
Smear tactics... it's all the god-squad have got.
Because they very clearly don't have any evidence.
Ad hominem is the "go to" strategy when the facts aren't on your side.
Richard Carrier is just one of the reasons I became an atheist.
I'm a long time skeptic and non-believer - big fan of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Feynman, Sagan, Shermer, De Grasse Tyson, Pinker, Jillette, Gervais et. al. I'm amazed that I've never heard of Dr Carrier until a few days ago. Will be reading his books!
Reading OHJ for a second time right now, actually. Good to see this getting more press; maybe if enough attention is paid to the argument, we'll get an actual scholarly attempt to argue against it. Because so far, nobody has even attempted it.
Fantastic discussion. I’m looking forward to reading his book. Carrier is an exceptional orator. I wonder where his passions will take him next...
I suppose I should watch it before voting the video up but I'm taking it on faith that it will be good.
That's the (holy) spirit!
Seth, this video is MONEY ... for anyone who is sick unto death of the Jesus myth. Thanks to you and Richard ... a LOT.
Carrier is brilliant. Thanks Seth for a fantastic interview.
+Raoul Borans I just can't take the guy seriously.
+RpgDestiny I'm sure you have your reasons but it's probably best you keep them to yourself.
Carrier's credentials and knowledge are impeccable so I'm guessing you just don't like him as a person?
Raoul Borans Pretty much. I mean, asking for girlfriends on your blog is kind of pathetic. He also has the mentality that "if you're not with me, you're against me." So yeah, I don't think he's a great person.
macsporan I have nothing against his argument.
I find your remark about his respectfulness particularly outrageous. The man is an ideologue who can't not see left or right. No one is afraid of this man. He makes good arguments but he's so pathetic I'm afraid no one takes him seriously.
+RpgDestiny Can you give some reasons why you think Carrier is an ideologue not being able to see left or right (do you mean left right politically or some other figurative sense of the word)? Other than his personal sexual preferences, which make you uncomfortable, in what way do you think he is pathetic? If you think his arguments are good, why even bother to try to discredit him by focusing on everything other than his arguments? That being said, I don't think he is the one who should be called pathetic.
Terrific work, Seth! Thank you for a lively and informative interview with Dr. Carrier.
There's so much evidence now that the stories about Jesus are unreliable.
Richard has put a great deal of effort into researching the early Christian history.
His books are fascinating, enjoyable and very popular.
Highly recommended.
I'm currently quite in agreement with Carrier's notions. Jesus almost certainly never existed as most Chritians imagine him. There could have been some guy it's based on, but not necessarily. The least we can say is that his divinity is a myth.
Thank you so much to both of you for your work! Much appreciated.
Am I alone in thinking it's *DAMNED WEIRD* that the comments don't deal with Carrier's ideas and scholarly research??? Instead, the comments are focused on his personal life(which strikes me as perfectly fine to me and is none of my concern) and his philosophies on feminism (which *isn't* fine, but it's ALSO none of my concern).
But neither personal preferences nor public feminism(shudder) changes that I think he's dead on the money regarding the mythical nature of Jesus.
He's *right* about religion in this regard, and since he *IS*, I'll pay attention to that aspect of his public discourse.
Outside of that, I don't really care what kind of cream-cheese-llama-bondage the guy is into.
Just out of curiosity, what *HAS* Richard Carrier said that has everyone so pissed off?
I don't want a link, just write out your grievances like I ain't never heard nuthin' about this before.
+GoodAvatar As I understand it he was one of the driving forces behind the Atheism+ movement, being notable for publishing an article which specifically stated that the intention was to drive atheists who didn't ascribe to radical feminism out of the community and prevent discussion that ran contrary to the 'correct' way of thinking.
Personally I'm of the 'when people talk sense I listen to them, when they talk crap I ignore them, it is the arguments that matter not the person saying them', but I understand the wounded feelings. Hopefully as the years pass and atheism+ fades deeper into a bad memory the bruised feelings will fade and he will generate less emotion, that is however something that would be helped by a cessation in the attacks from both sides.
+GoodAvatar Indeed, although I think his blog is gibberish and his drama on polyamory is just cringe-worthy, when he does research, he should be judged by that.
+Andrew Tall no it wasn't. Atheism plus was about humanism - an atheist philosophy which isn't hostile to women. Seems to me once you abandon religion you might as well abandon the patriarchal bullshit that religion teaches. Cant see what the problem is with that. Also dont see what is supposed to be so unacceptable about 'public feminism' @GoodAvatar, but I agree Carrier should be judged on his work not his personality.
Bruce Wayne Well, "Patriarchy" doesn't exist as defined by feminists. The fact that they're so rabid about it's existence strikes me as a tad kooky.
I'm all for egalitarianism.
But that's not what feminism *IS* or *WANTS.*
To me, feminists push an awful lot of double standards and total bullshit.
Too much for me to endorse or take seriously.
GoodAvatar patriarchy exists. Where do you get the idea that equality isnt what feminism is or wants?
Read the last chapter of Deuteronomy, then try to convince yourself that Moses wrote it.
It says that God buried Moses and nobody knows the location.
I don't see how Moses could write about the events after he died.
It also says that no prophet has been better than Moses !
brilliant man
It's welcomed, new insight👍💯
I have been a mythicist, and a real honest to goodness atheist, ever since I read Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces.
I've been a mythisist for awhile. Skeptical of Jesus. Yep.
***** No.
You don't. But the tidal fits.
***** I'm skeptical that jesus existed. I can call myself a mythisis or not and still be skeptical.
I've seen The Mesiah next to my bed in spirit form, bright white body with longer hair and a robe. If he was a man who walked the earth cool if he was never a man who walked the earth bit had power I still have to believe after that encounter of him.
@Allington Marakan because he he is not just going to show himself so a bunch of evil people can believe in him. He wants only the pure in heart to believe in him not everybody. There are people on this earth who are sent from Satan in fact many people who are satans children and not his fathers children. The battle on earth is between good and evil. God vs satans. There is scripture "get away from me you are of your father the devil" -Jesus.
Excellent thanks very much 😅
One of the issues about the historicity of Jesus is and has been since my childhood was there were no contemporary eye witness accounts that Jesus existed during the time of his supposed life. All accounts about his 'life" came years later, sometimes decades.
I talked to trees too, as a kid. Naivety and ignorance made for a magical childhood.
LOL, well said!
You are my kin..former child tree hugger too.
There's a song named "I talk to the trees" I like it, have you considered the possibilities of aliens?
Fascinating interview!
Feminism is mentioned in the comments way more than it is in this video... which is 0. I'm not a fan of the radical feminist movement going on either, but can we focus on whats in the video and put aside what isn't? I don't care about his stance on feminism (because a lot of atheist I really like are feminist unfortunately... kinda makes me sad but I turn them off when they say shit regarding it) or what he does in his personal life, I'm here for the information, which is why you should have clicked this, too. Unless you just searched Richard Carrier and commented "FEMINIST MORON" and disliked all the videos with him in it.
+DragonCharlz Thanks. I, too, lament that so many jumped onto a soapbox before watching the content (or before exclaiming that they wouldn't even take the time to watch). Lots of good stuff in here. -Seth
nodws Then what did you click this video for? Just to insult Richard? Get a life. Seriously, if you have nothing to say about the content, then you are literally wasting your time. Nothing is more childish than what some people, like yourself, are doing. We get it, you disagree with something he's not even talking about here, SO DO I, but I'm not here for that, because he's not talking about it here.
DragonCharlz yawn
***** I'm only interested in the topic of this video when I click on this video. When I want to see how stupid feminism is, I'll watch one of those videos, and if he's on the bad end there, then so be it. Right now, he didn't mention feminism one time, so you mentioning and acting like everything someone says should be dragged everywhere that they go is just stupid. Sorry I don't care about your hatred of feminism on a video that isn't talking about it. Grow up kids.
+DragonCharlz My angle is psychology with both the christians and capitalists because they refuse to listen. Atheists aren't perfect either.
Hey Seth, I'm not sure if you read the comment section of your vids but I just have to compliment you on how well produced they are. Tight, clean audio and well done, good quality video. I like how in this video you went with the, I'll call it, "PBS Frontline" style of interviewing where we don't see you, the interviewer, just the subject, Richard. Anyway, Keep up the good work!!!
Got here after the recent Bart Ehrman video. Have to say, it's a little odd to hear Ehrman get away so easily with his dismissal of Jesus mysticism, when this was out there all those years
Why are so many people afraid of open and honest debate? Is it because it is easier to just accept certain things as "given" and move on without examining the beliefs that we hold to be true?
Wow. Like Richard, I had intense "spiritual" experiences that convinced me that Taoism was true. Until I found science could explain my experiences...etc.
I had Christian spiritual experiences that I have no explanation for. Would you be kind enough to let me know what science says about these sort of
experiences, whatever religion they relate to.
Thank you kindly.
@@heatherclark8668 Hi. Yes. I was an atheist from childhood until age 17. Then I had an extreme experience that led me to become a Christian believer for a dozen or so years. Then a few years into my thirties I had another intense similar experience. I spent the nineties trying to figure out what was going on through mysticism and other religions. Then through the internet and TH-cam and research I have diagnosed myself as having neocortical temporal lobe epilepsy do to some traumatic brain injury I experienced as a child. My experiences match exactly the symptoms of people who have had religious experience, such as Paul and Mohammed and Buddha and many others. That's how science has explained my rapturous and amazing experiences that I still experience to this day, but I know are my physical body.
Hi to me from 7 years ago, doing well and enjoying life!
@@216trixie Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to me and in such detail.
I am very grateful especially since you posted that comment over 7 years ago.
@@heatherclark8668 Hi, sure. What kind of experiences did you have?
We know god is real and lives outside space and time.
Of course he hasn't always lived there, only since flying machines were invented.
He used to live in a bush up a mountain (Exodus 3:4. Deuteronomy 33:16)
And sometimes in a tent on a mercy seat (Exodus 25:22 Numbers 7:89).
One of the best, concise summaries of Carrier's research.
he is outstanding
Jesus lives......in the imagination.
Great video Seth!!! Fascinating subject for sure.
excellent analysis by Dr Carrier. great, informative interview.
What's the big deal on Carriers feminism - "I am a feminist because feminism is simply the belief that women should be treated as fairly as men, and there is no factual or rational reason to want the world to work any other way."
How is this a "sad" view? Why is everyone all - "I'm not a feminist like Carrier..."???
joel rivard There are many people who have some sense of how bad their sexism (or racism, etc) looks and will attack principled people (not saying Carrier is necessarily an outstanding example) so as to divert from their own anti-humanism.
Wonan are equal but different?
Another intelligent talk by yes...intelligent people. They are slowly changing our world in a good way.
Now for my thoughts;
All you religious fanatics that live in a fantasy world, listen up! The sooner you put aside your childish
beliefs in fantasy and grow up, the sooner this world will hopefully begin to slowly straighten out. We
need to put aside our selfish short term interests and work on global long term plans for the welfare
of future generations and our planet.
Sorry, I seem to have gotten side tracked. There has been more pain and suffering all throughout history,
caused by you believers following your religions then any other source. You don't live by your so called
god rules, you live by your own selfish interests. From the lowly parishioners on up to the pope who sits
on the top of the heap. At the top, it's money, power and control, at the bottom it's all about getting to live in
some kind of eternal Disney kind of wonder world. ( also known as paradise )
It is all about money, power and control, which seems to me beyond anything you parishioners can understand.
I mean..."god is behind your country when you go to war" in order to take over? Come on... use your brains!
Your like sheep that want to follow the wolf in sheep's clothing. What about plain common sense? The clergy
and politicians have you by the balls and you don't even know it. Your a very sad lot and I feel sorry for you.
Talks like this is a great help to overcoming the hold religion has on people. Thanks so much to the Internet
and especially the scholars that do all the hard work of debunking the stories from the bible and other such
works from the bronze age and of course later centuries as the rules were changed to appeal to the current
guy in charge at the time. It is so very important that the general public have access to this information
to think, absorb and digest. Knowledge is power! Sooner or later they will see the light so to speak, and
realize that fantasy is fantasy and the world around us is real and we should make the best of it while we can.
And yes it's a given that you need to be careful of what you see and believe on the net, but still it is a wonderful
source of information for people across the planet.
Big fan of Richard Carrier
Great interview Seth. Well done and you’re more at ease and professional with each clip.
Why did I get a "Capton" Church advertisement? it was like "let's spread god's word to Europe!"
The lack of consistency among the different versions of Christianity and in particular the bible was one of the bigger reasons I fell out of it. To hear that it gets even worse just based on the English translations compared to the original works only cements things for me and further shows how ridiculous it is to think this book is somehow a perfect scripture that should be used to control peoples lives.
A Sarkeesianbot.
Christianity was hatched by 'Rome. There was a Jesus who walked this Earth thousand of years before Cchritianity was hatched, He never saud he was the only way, never said he came to save anyone, never told anyone to follow him. His Message was Peace & Love.
Citation required.
Great interview, thank you.
If the rest can believe in Jesus, I can believe in Sherlock Holmes, Scarlett O'Hara and Rhett Butler, Superman and Santa.
Love this interview. Thanks!
Thank you so much for this it was very interesting
ordered Richard's book.
I’m so glad your bringing questions about the god stuff.Its to follow without question and believe leadership of military and church.
"Burned by the Internet, so often", ..that what is presented has to evolve across the spectrum of "truth" +/-, until it can be recognized by anyone who cares about the values presented in the current context. Good.
Academic discussion is best conducted from a double opposition positioning, that is taking the other proponents POV and challenging your own. It's how we are supposed to reason inside our heads before opening up the discussion.
Richard Carrier "lays it out" and adds the cross checking in detail.
The result is that it could be possible to realize the real world values and intended virtues of the topic.(?)
Awesome!
Kristo's is a Gnostic Aeon who wasn't Jewish and didn't die for your sin. Yahweh is a Demiurge and Yahshua is the replicant Archon of Kristo's created by the Demiurge. Lucifer who isn't Satan is another Archon who is extraordinarily busy on earth today via Kaballism who is in the process of fulling the myth of turning humans into Gods (via A.I. )...
Thank you, Seth. And, Richard!
its a surprise to me that richard carrier is not a household name yet. at least not where i come from. his thoery about jesus is the only one that really makes any sense.
Matt K Well, at least _Carrier_ is a household name. The "Richard" part not so much.
There's one major flaw in Carrier's hypothesis that I have yet to hear him address, namely, that if we take it for granted that Jesus the man never existed, at some point we have to start talking about human beings who actually existed. Do we start with Peter and the twelve disciples? We have even less evidence of them existing. Do we start with Paul? If so, then are we to assume that neither Jesus and his original apostles existed; therefore, Paul was promoting not one but at least a baker's dozen men who never existed. But Paul himself claims to know Peter personally, so that would be a rather delusional claim if Peter never existed. Or we could go to the other extreme that Paul, also, never existed, so we must hypothesize that all of Paul's writings were fabricated by...whom? The early church fathers: Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Justin Martyr? At some point we have to postulate flesh and blood people, and that becomes a far more gargantuan task than simply assuming that Jesus was an actual person who walked the earth. Of course, this doesn't prove Jesus existed, but it does suggest that presuming that Jesus never existed at all is quite a bit more far-fetched than presuming he did.
Well you failed to consider that Paul may have been lying , wasn't he the one who said that it was ok to tell a lie for God
Except that none of those people were ever worshipped as a god, while Jesus of course was. That affects the probability. Not to mention we actually have works that at least have the names of most of these people on them. We have nothing like that for Jesus, except for documents that we know are forgeries of course. Mythicism is also not just about a lack of evidence that clearly places a person in history, it's about the best explanation for the evidence we do have. There is a lot of evidence which is far better explained by a theory that Jesus was a pre-existent celestial being, not a man who lived on earth.
And Paul doesn't give names to Jesus's disciples. He never even uses the word disciples. He makes reference to "the Twelve", and he mentions Peter and James as Christians he met in Jerusalem, but he never says that they met Jesus or were his disciples.
Reality Forge You sound like someone who has never actually read Paul.
Matthew Prorok Doesn't sound like you've actually read Paul either.
I've got the audio books for the collection of papers and the latest. Unfortunately you still have to have the book handy for the footnotes. The latest one _On the Historicity_ is excellent. 5 stars.
And no, I'm not a feminist and I don't subscribe to Atheism+. However, I still appreciate the extensive knowledge of Dr Carrier on this subject.
Rand: Why don't you believe that women are equal to men and should have as many rights?
Why have I never seen this b4q
Crowdsourced research grant, how nice.
9:30 I guess he meant Sarapis or Serapis, that was a sincretic god. Osiris was already Egyptian and not Hellenistic.
Good stuff.
Carrier may be self-righteous and judgemental, but that doesn't negate the fact that he's a professional historian and probably knows what he's talking about here. Just... can't you people ignore his feminism and his history with the A+ movement for a moment? It has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
OTHJ is brilliant---you will learn so much. Highly recommend.
I totally agree with this analysis, but the problem is not so much how people can believe in such nonsense, as why. You can point out the fallacies/absurdities again and again, but if believers have a vested interest (economic, social, political and/or psychological) in their 'faith' then they'll continue to hold onto them. This is why we need to pay attention to the motives as well. A study still needs to be done into the spread of monotheistic religions inside the Roman Empire and its forebears, the social/economic groups that spread them, and their relationship to (with or against) the contemporary ruling elites etc.
gappy from JoJolion is real And in 2000 years everyone is going to worship him 😂
historical Jesus was always weak and the burden of proof is on them. even if he was real, it would be our scientific duty to forget about him unless the evidence asserted itself.
great talk and he is definitely one of the great authorities on this subject. just quirky how much he resembles the late self proclaimed messiah "david koresh" of the waco tx. branch davidian tragedy. just sayin.
It’s hilarious that Carrier criticism of Atwill sounds similar to others who criticize Carrier. I think the answers lie in the middle somewhere. Perhaps in time the wrinkles will be ironed out, but right now, to the casual reader, there are obviously egos in play, but then that’s nothing new.
if i heard him correct he said that the name demon basically means divine
Yep, check out the wiki on Demon, especially the Etymology section: "The Ancient Greek word δαίμων daemon denotes a spirit or divine power, much like the Latin genius or numen."
excellent
great interview. it's sad how many people genuinely aren't educated in history of their own religion.
and while I have as much opposition of modern feminism as the next guy, I don't see why so many people are bitching on a completely irrelevant subject.
Time to debunk also the Islam now
Great interview ᵔᴥᵔ ★★★★★
Katalyzt
I have no doubt this will be the consensus in a decade or two.
We can speed this process by sharing it far and wide. I share it with any Christians that respect intellect.
To all those ranting about his personal life I will say this. That is not an argument. Deal with what he's saying for fuck sake.
Thank you! :)
Jesus came to me in a dream last night. He assured me that he was real and promised me he would never lie to me. What more do you need?
When he says that we have two different version on Luke at 6:30, I think he meant to say Acts. They are by the same author so that may be why he got them mixed up.
No, we actually have two versions of both Luke AND Acts. The shorter one is in the canon.
+Jacob Zentichko Actually he said "Luke/Acts". Which he tends to refer to Luke and Acts as one work, "Luke/Acts".
+CaseAgainstFaith1 Oh, I didn't hear him say Luke/Acts a couple seconds later the first time I watched this video. Luke and Acts were sometimes circulated a one unit so it would make sense to refer to it like that.
+Jacob Zentichko I think he's talking about Marcion's gospel. The crazy thing about that is that Marcion wasn't writing until 130-140...Marcion's gospel doesn't have a birth story, which is a *very* important detail...
+Tim C I thought the Marcion Cannon contained the book of Luke along with 10 letters of Paul (if that is wrong, feel free to correct me). I guess I just wasn't aware that there was a different edition to the book of Luke as well as Acts.
Yeah, if I thought the bible was the word of god, I would be reading it over and over and over again and meet with others to discuss the text. I would read books by others discussing the text. My whole life would be centered around memorizing and understanding the text. It is bizarre that there are many people who think it is the word of god yet don't bother to read it.
Yeah, I did that. The indoctrination and waste of time I did to myself was considerable ... because of the lie that the bible is the word of God.
@@davidfenton3910Even if it’s entirely fictitious, the Bible is still one of the most important texts in the English language, at the very least. Even if you felt your time was wasted by Christians, consider that there’s much to be learned from the ancient text. With a different perspective your time may not have been wasted.
Hi EnigmaEuslam
Thanks for your reply to this old comment.
EVEN IF IT’S ENTIRELY FICTITIOUS,
Objectively, as far as I know and can show, the bible is significantly based on philosophical planning in Plato to deceive and defraud the general public by 'Philosopher--King' rulers. The text, 'Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible' lays out some of the planning and how it was used to create the bible. There are various YT vids in which the author discusses this. e.g.
th-cam.com/video/-WymCNbsAsQ/w-d-xo.html
THE BIBLE IS STILL ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT TEXTS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, AT THE VERY LEAST. ... CONSIDER THAT THERE’S MUCH TO BE LEARNED FROM THE ANCIENT TEXT.
*Yes absolutely!*
Because the Bible is a prime example of philosophical influence deceptively founding western civilisation, knowledge of it gives knowledge/insights into philosophical deception. Most significantly, this is an objective understanding of the ancient roots *and current nature* of western society.
The planning in Plato is still being used and like any design that works, it has been continually refined and improved. Because of well over 2000 years of use *and improvement,* the 'Religious Sense' of the bible has been genre transitioned - it's no longer outwardly religious, but is far more devastatingly effective.
EVEN IF YOU FELT YOUR TIME WAS WASTED BY CHRISTIANS,
I consider church attending Christians and most Pastors/Priests etc to be unwitting victims as I was. Those philosophically aware of what Christianity and society is and who perpetuate it; through failure to make known the truth of it; are the ones most responsible for wasting my time and doing extremely significant damage to my core of reason and hence thinking and living.
The violation through such trespass into and _'stealing'_ key parts of another's mind is atrocious. And western society is based upon and uses upgraded worse forms of it today! Western society today has billions of lovely people that have had extremely corrupting things done to their cognitive function and resultant world views and living. And because I'm still conditioned to collectivism because my familial ties were in-grafted into society, I love and feel deeply for them all.
WITH A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE YOUR TIME MAY NOT HAVE BEEN WASTED.
The time was definitely wasted in the sense that I was basing and living my life from philosophical fabrications, both in the Christian genre *and the Natural genre* which is the upgraded form of philosophical false narrative now most prominent.
Finding out the core fact that the Hebrew bible and religious beliefs from it (Christian/Islamic) are philosophical and in particular Platonic, in their roots, gives powerful perspective. So powerful that it helps penetrate the even the more deceptive and influential effects of the upgraded forms of philosophical deception today.
If you want to discuss aspects/parts of philosophical deception past or present let me know. I wouldn't want to waste all that time gaining insights into the bible, which is at its root - Plato's-philosophical-planning.
Just like the bible had it's various topics and stories the new super narrative has its own. Feel free to pick one your interested in or don't know about or add one I don't know about.
- Schooling as the prime method of conditioning/indoctrination.
- Covid virus/pandemic
- Aids virus/pandemic
- Viruses not what we've been led to think
- Jenner's vaccination as philosophical narrative
- 'Woke' Ideology
- THE terrorist attacks on that date
- Nuclear Bombs as philosophical narrative
- Hitlers Germany Holocaust etc. as philosophical narrative
- Geneva convention - war trials as philosophical narrative
- Global warming etc.
- Or other aspects topics
Happy to talk to someone that plays guitar. I sold the Ovation I imported years ago, as needed $$$. When they stopped the Lords Prayer in parliament I arranged it to some guitar on YT and told them if they didn't believe it then the expectation to pray it was not reasonable and I and presumably other Christians would take care of it. I'll upload an mp3 to my website so you can have a listen to some of what my delusional bible belief caused me to do. The guitar is about as good as I put together, but I couldn't play it now.
Found it, uploaded it, the file was dated 2014! I've come a long way since then but not my guitar playing.
Have a GREAT day EnigmaEuslam!
sincerely
david
@@davidfenton3910 Wow. That’s one hell of a response! These topics are of great interest to me but I’m a father to two small children and caring for them consumes most of my daylight hours (leaving my music work resigned to a few hours n the evening) so responding in kind isn’t typically feasible, despite the fact that I’d love to hear more of your thoughts. Ever considered using your channel to express these ideas?
I must say that it definitely doesn’t sound to me like you wasted ALL of your time. Forming a worldview this unencumbered by prevailing narratives must be worth something right? Finding a way out of the cave is worth the struggle, no?
Have you noticed here of late Richard is looking more and like the fourth Doctor, Tom Baker?
I love dr carrier but I don’t agree with him trashing Atwill.
Seth, the ending! lol
Jesus, a guy whose sole purpose was to be murdered because someone ate Yahweh's fruit... Why is there any debate as to whether this story is true? It's the 21st Century people!
Many people who have been led to believe the bible is the word of God, have had their base essential human functionality, their conscious perception and awareness, compromised in profound ways. I have never heard of a case of someone coming out of deep belief in the bible etc. that didn't take years. And often it was years with lots of little steps to eventually 'get there'. That many don't know how human consciousness forms or is changed indicates that they never took an active role in forming theirs, but it was largely formed for them, without their knowing. And it's similar for those who don't know about how to change the conscious awareness of themselves or others.
It's 2015 C.E.(Common Era)
Dr. Carrier looks like Will Graham... 👀
The weakness in myth theory is the fact that he was not known as Jesus of Bethlehem. Everyone knew that he was from Nazareth. This is why both Matthew and Luke wrote such fanciful birth narratives. I cannot think of a single reason why Mark would have created this problem that prompted other gospel authors to twist themselves in pretzels.
Nazareth not on the map then as a town. It was a dumping area.
The Greek text said he was a Nazarine not from Nazareth. Nazarines were a Jewish sect.
What if religion is Evolution backwards ..
I think noitulove would be evolution backwards. lol
What is he even blabbering about?
Am I the only one who thought this was Seth until he started talking? :D
Very enlightening. I need to forward this to some people. Many things said really have been taught even in religion class, however, not as in depth and justifying things like the obvious edits and the fact that several authors hacked into one gospel.
Talking to trees is much better than talking to yourself for you see when you talk to trees there is an end, however when you talk to yourself it never ends unless of course you're working in the contemplative arts.
Not to mention the whole zeitgeist crowd that pushed the jesus myth and got him to actually consider it!
Great interview. I've read Carrier's books, yet I still think a historical Jesus existed.
The literary facts chronologically linking The Gospels and Josephus writing, especially the journeys and activities of Jesus and Titus Flavius, brought out by Atwill are dynamite for anyone wanting to show Jesus is not historical and is a literary creation.
If the theory Atwill put together from them and displayed them within is crap that doesn't discount the historical literary facts which speak for themselves and which anyone who will go to the trouble can see in the source documents for themselves. i.e. anyone can provide literary historical evidence that the Gospels are a literary creation. With a little effort they can show, that the writings of Josephus were used to back date the Gospel Narrative and sell the world's most influential Ideological control device as if was real history. Some of the literary typological links and how they, when taken together, form a solid case, follow:
Key:
1 IN CAPS:
THE GOSPELS (THE FORERUNNER, BACK WRITTEN AS A FALSE HISTORY BEFORE THE REALITY OF TITUS CAMPAIGN, WHICH WAS USED AS SOURCE MATERIAL TO WRITE THE GOSPEL STORY.)
2 in lower case:
Josephus Flavius ‘history’ of Titus' Military Campaign (Titus is the ‘reality’ from which the literary device of the Jesus Narrative was created.)
THE MAIN THING being pointed to here, is the existence of SO MANY LITERARY SIMILARITIES, occurring in the SAME GEOGRAPHICAL PLACES in the two stories (and generally), in the SAME ORDER. (Some show crystal clear typological links, others are not so clear but if even just a third of the total (40+), are considered solid typological links then it’s mathematically certain these texts were written in a linked way.)
1 THE GOSPELS: START OF JESUS MINISTRY IN GALILEE: JESUS BEGINS AT GENNESARETH AND SAYS "FOLLOW ME" AND BE "FISHERS OF MEN"
2 Josephus history: Start of Titus campaign in Galilee: Titus has his "onset" at Gennesareth where his soldiers follow him and "fish" for men. (Not one of the clearest, but starting at the beginning is probably important)
1 THE GOSPELS: JESUS AT GADARA, ENCOUNTERS LEGION OF DEMONS INSIDE ONE MAN
2 Josephus history: Titus At Gadara encounters "Legion" of ‘resistance fighters’ possessed with wicked spirit coming from one man.
1 THE GOSPELS: "SWINE" RUN WILDLY AND 2,000 DROWN
2 Josephus history: At Gadara, 2,000 of the "demons" do not drown
1 THE GOSPELS: AT JERUSALEM, THE "SON OF MARY" OFFERS HIS FLESH TO BE EATEN
2 Josephus history: At the siege of Jerusalem a son's flesh is recorded as eaten by Mary
1 THE GOSPELS: JESUS ENVISIONS "SIGNS" OCCURRING BEFORE THE TEMPLE'S DESTRUCTION
2 Josephus history: Josephus records "signs" that occurred before the temple's destruction
1 THE GOSPELS: AN ESCAPE BY A "NAKED" INDIVIDUAL AT JERUSALEM'S NORTHEAST CORNER
2 Josephus history: An escape by a "naked" individual at Jerusalem's northeast corner
1 THE GOSPELS: MESSIAH CAPTURED ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES
2 Josephus history: Messiah captured on the Mount of Olives
1 THE GOSPELS: SIMON'S DENIALS
2 Josephus history: Simon's denials
1 THE GOSPELS: THREE ARE CRUCIFIED; ONE SURVIVES
2 Josephus history: Three are crucified; one survives
1 THE GOSPELS: JOSEPH "ARIMATHEA" TAKES SURVIVOR DOWN FROM THE CROSS
2 Josephus history: Joseph bar Matthias takes survivor down from cross
1 THE GOSPELS: SIMON IS THE ROCK UPON WHICH THE NEW CHURCH IS TO BE BUILT
2 Josephus history: Simon is the "rock" upon which the new "Church" will be built
1 THE GOSPELS: JESUS SENDS SIMON TO A MARTYR'S DEATH AT ROME BUT SPARES JOHN AT CONCLUSION OF MINISTRY
2 Josephus history: Titus sends Simon to martyr's death at Rome but spares John at conclusion of campaign
1 THE GOSPELS: JUDAS FALSELY ACCUSES JESUS, AND SPILLS HIS GUTS (IN THE BOOK OF ACTS)
2 Josephus history: Catullus falsely accuses against Josephus, Bernice and Alexander, and spills his guts
Richard Carrier does not agree with Joseph Atwill's theory that Jesus was based off of Titas Flavius and the typology of Moses.
I happen to disagree with Carrier on the topic. Atwill's theory is one of the most thought provoking theories I've Learned about in my lifetime. I hope that more historians will consider Atwill's theory and test his theories.
May I ask how you tested his theories? Did you compare his book to the Gospels like Atwill suggests? Are there other sources that you used as well to convince yourself into agreement with his theories?
And James Bond
Seth Andrews should definitely consider doing some voice acting
He did. He uses to be a Evangelical radio host.
Lesser but more accessible 'Jesus Potter Harry Christ'.
Great vid, but who were those people in the Talpiot Tomb? I know you have a background in Bayesian Stats. The probability of those particular name being found randomly on Ossuaries dating to around 70 AD is highly unlikely. Do you believe the inscriptions were faked? As I understand it the patina test came back legit. Maybe I have missed some other evidence along the way.
It was a group that included "Mother" ,"wife", "brother" and "son" , wasn't it? Much to explain either way.
Say, there is only one supernatural domain; which satan and god share [bump into, greet one another, or talk with each other or not do any of that]?
That would prove that god is not almighty; because satan is completely autonomous according to the bible; ie, can do as much evil as s/he likes.
God, of course; according to the priestly classes, does only good to people or only to people who believe in her/him.
So, god has his own [?objective/unchanging] morality and satan has his own!
These two supernatural moralities [or even realities] thus cannot be compared with human changing moralities and realities.
Comparing supernatural moralities with earthly would be like comparing a worm with a dino!
There is only the real domain. Things are what they are. There is nothing above or beyond reality i.e. nothing super-natural.