American Marines Carried Shotguns into WW1 and Germany Protested. Here's Why:
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.ค. 2022
- On July 21, 1918, German soldiers captured a U.S. soldier from the 307th Infantry Regiment, 77th Division, near Baccarat, France. He was carrying a weapon they had never seen: a Winchester Model 97 pump-action shotgun.
On September 15, 1918, the German government officially protested the use of the shotgun.
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Why can't those Americans use flamethrowers and mustard gas like gentlemen?
Yet remember in ww2 Americans complained about Germans using Snipers as it was deemed unhonourable.
Untill they were forced to give out rifles in the war which is why America had no sharpshooter division in ww2.
America had no Doctrine or Training for their sharpshooters.
Americans have no morals. They aren't gentlemen
How dare you call us americans out on our hypocrisy. @@plasticbudgie
"The first thing that one should demand of his weapon is that it be unfair." - Col. Jeff Cooper
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, your strategy sucks." Lol
Laughs in bioweapon
@@USS-SNAKE-ISLAND 😂
@@USS-SNAKE-ISLAND yup
@@USS-SNAKE-ISLAND That must be why the US military hides behind expensive toys and growth hormones..
As of 2010, Marines still carried shotguns. Can’t say after that but I had one on both my deployments to Afghanistan. First go round was a mossberg 590 and the second time was the benelli. I had it as a secondary weapon for breaching. I used it as my primary weapon when entering compounds and buildings too instead of switching back to my rifle. Absolutely loved it. Only issue was getting enough 12 gauge sent out too us. We just used regular old Remington 00 buck. No fancy breaching rounds or anything.
I carried the Mossberg 590A1 in Afghanistan..
I never carried one when I was deployed, but when I got out I bought a Mossberg 590 Marine model with chrome barrel. I love this scattergun. Having never owned or shot a Benelli, I wanted to ask which you liked better. My hobbies nowadays are black powder and handloading various rifle calibers for my hunting use
I carried a Benelli on my first rotation to Afghanistan in '04. Great for clearing rooms, and breaching mud brick walls; but it pretty much spent a lot of time just looking menacing and being extra weight.
@@nicholasmangialardi1618 I love them both but they are very different. It’s hard to beat the simplicity of the mossberg. Or the price in comparison. The benelli is a work of art but definitely requires a higher level of training to operate effectively under stress. And the price is pretty rough. I’ve since bought both on the civilian side. The mossberg is under my bed ready to go and the benelli is in my safe
We had Remington 870 & Mossberg 590 shotguns in both of my units(B-1/7 & F-2/7) 90-94(Gulf War-I & Somalia). We would privately purchase 00 Buck and 1oz rifled slugs to ensure against shortage of ammo, but our officers and nco's always made sure that we had plenty of ammo for all of our weapons no matter what.
"Maybe you should cry about it"
-Woodrow Wilson
truly inspirational
based lol
I recall hearing that the British ang French soldiers derided the Americans and their shotguns. Comments about bird hunting and small game with smiles and laughter. But when they heard and saw the results of close quarter combat, they changed their minds pretty quick. Even today the 12 gage shotgun is a standard weapon for the US Military, and other militaries have learned that lesson.
MARINES HAD 870 REMINGTON TWELVE GAUGE,THE HUNS OF WWI USED MUSTARD GAS...
Best gun ever. My first shotgun, the old Remington express.
It is good for shtf also.
A shotgun with slugs or large calaber buck shot is devastating at close range
source?
I carried a WWI trench gun on a patrol boat in Vietnam. Most armories had some. The ammo I used was made in the early 1950s, so I supposed it was used in Korea, too.
You sure it was of WW1 manufacture?
Some of the same models of shotguns like the Winchester Model 97 that were used to make trenchguns for WW1 were also manufactured during WW2 along with other models, newer models of shotguns like the Winchester 1200 were also made into trenchguns new during the Vietnam war, the Ithaca Model 37 was made into trenchguns during both WW2 and Vietnam under contract.
As a collector of military shotguns I'd love to see a picture of you with it should you have one.
@@dukecraig2402 It was an old, pristine shotgun said to be a WWI, never issued 1897 as told to me by the armorer. There were several more in the same condition. We had a conversation about it, and I had a small manual that was a copy of one printed in the 1920s, but 53 year old memory. I doubt I have a pic but will look.
@@dukecraig2402 by the time I came along into the Marine Corps, the main Shotgun we used, and I repaired was the M870, which was a modified Remington Wingmaster. It had a 20 inch barrel, a magazine extension, a clamp near the muzzle that stabilized and protected the mag extension, but also had a bayonet lug and at one time had a bladed front sight.
Just before I separated, we got in a couple of Winchester model 1200s.
We never called our shotties "trench guns" though, we called them Riot guns.
They were mostly carried by members of the guard force though.
A 12 ga. slug is a certain show stopper. Don't ask how I know.
@@gregwarner3753 it is...I tested a 3in 1 Oz slug on a 6x6 fence post before and it went through it. I shot 7 more times out of my moss 590a1 and it was no more..had a big grin on my face
I was in the US Army in the early 1970s. Several times when pulling guard duty , I was issued a Remington model 97.
Cool story
Did you kill the other guy?
@@gregjones3660 In typical army fashion, they issued me a model 97 but no ammo.
I pulled guard duty at an ammo dump in Berlin in 1979. I had a Remington shotgun with five shells of 00 shot. On the outer perimeter was a German guard from the 6941st Guard Battalion with an M-16 and a couple or three full magazines.
@@Washoewillie Was your Remington shotgun a model 97? The only time they gave me ammo for guard duty was when I was a payroll guard for a company payday at Ft. Meade, MD. Issued me a M16A1 on that occasion.
So they were using flame throwers and poison gas but the Germans were worried about shotguns?
How about the bombing of cities with zeppelins, and the documented bombing of hospitals by the Germans/Austrians. And the Armenian genocide by their allies. At least a shotgun wasn't used against civilians.
One major problem with trench shotguns at the time was the ammunition, they were paper/cardboard shells easy to degrade when exposed to moisture in the mud. Plastic shells were unknown at the time an all brass shells did not appear in quantity until after the war..
Very true. Also. being able to hit a thrown grenade or carrier pigeon would be a lucky hit at best under wartime conditions.
All brass shotshells were made long before wax impregnated paper shell's were, all brass was the original way of making them and as soon as the wax impregnated paper shell's were identified as a problem brass one's were procured and rushed to France, contrary to erroneous statements like that being spread around in the comments section of TH-cam videos all brass shot shell's saw service in France well before the end of the war.
The only reason that the US Military equipped troops with paper shell's at first was economics, they had to equip a million man expeditionary force and chose paper shell's because they were less expensive.
Also the training of US soldiers to shoot grenades and carrier pigeons out of the air with shotguns is a total myth perpetrated mostly by the US Military itself, although the US never signed the agreement to not use all lead or expanding type bullets it was eager to appear that it didn't want to run afoul of it, so it started a disinformation campaign to make it appear that shotguns were being issued to troops for those reasons, it even went as far as to have an advertisement in a magazine showing a US soldier with a trenchgun on a skeet range, anyone whose ever shot skeet or trap knows how ridiculous the idea is that someone could be effective at shooting objects that small out of the sky with buckshot.
US Military photographer's were instructed not to take any pictures of troops in France holding a shotgun and the censors in Washington were instructed to destroy any should one inadvertently appear in the background to help keep the controversy over shotguns to a minimum, this is why not a single picture of a US soldier in France during WW1 is known to exist, should anyone ever come up with one it would be worth a fortune to the authors of books on the subject and collectors.
@@dukecraig2402 Someone that actually knows their firearm and general history. Refreshing.
@@seanwalters1977 I have one and all you need to do is hold the trigger down and pump it, what a joy.
@@seanwalters1977
I've been collecting US military shotguns for over 30 years, I've read the after action reports on them from just about every conflict they've been used in, seen shipping records for both the shotguns and ammo used along with actual shipping crates from different lots of ammo with the dates on them from even WW1.
Everytime I read in comments things like "all brass shotshells weren't available until after the war" I just roll my eyes back in my head and say to myself "Here we go again".
The single biggest issue with the wax impregnated paper shell's is that they'd swell up in the magazine tube and get hung up and not feed, this was a huge problem since it was impossible to clear without disassembling the weapon which was a pretty big deal since they couldn't be field stripped.
Once the issue was identified soldiers simply learned to keep the shell's dry, that's all, it wasn't like it deadlined the use of shotguns by US forces in WW1 as some people have claimed, in another video there was actually a guy in the comments section who stated that US soldiers were "known" for throwing their shotguns away because of it, I challenged him to reference the after action reports where commander's claim this happened, I've read them from WW1 concerning the paper shell's and in them even with the complaint about the shell's they requested more shotguns because of their effectiveness, I had one guy challenge me to tell him how they managed to keep the paper shell's dry in the rain un France and I told him "The same way I kept my toilet paper and cigarettes dry when I was stationed in Europe in the Army, you just figure it out".
We had racks of these shotguns in the 101st Airborne Division. They were supposedly for "riot duty".
we used them on guard duty in korea 1965,
@@AmericanSavage593: Rakkasan!
The 1897 Winchester was invented by none other than John M. Browning. It was in production all the way up to 1957 as both a sporting and military shotgun. He also invented the Browning Automatic Rifle which went into service in 1918. It was also a “trench sweeper”. It was surprising that the Germans didn’t protest it as well.
Cause the Americans decided not to use the BAR due to fear of it getting in enemy hands. So why you didn't hear germans complaining about it cause it wasnt used at all in ww1
@@TheCaptainSplatter Interesting, thanks for the correction. I have seen a photo of Val Browning in a WWI uniform holding a BAR. Assumed it was put into service. Val was one of John’s son who was an inventor in own right.
The war ended in 1898. I do not know if the B.A.R. saw combat service that year.
Ironically I don't believe the BAR actually saw combat in WW1 because the dipshits in Washington were more concerned with it falling into Germany's hands than being able to actually use them to help win the war. Same concept as the when the Union turned down repeater rifle models during the Civil War because they thought it would lead to too much ammo consumption 🤦♂️
The M97 is literally David's weapon to take on God. A user with proficiency you can load multiple rounds, fire, and extract faster than you can with a rifle and aiming offhand can not only be done but done with remarkable effectiveness.
Keep in mind, the US’s army was not as organized before WWI as it is seen today. Most of the men in the army had little experience with certain weapons before this war, but many were familiar with the shotguns. A 100 years ago, hunting was still seen as a part of life, and not as controversial as it has become later. Add the fact the US is largely rural, technically, there’s plenty of chances for these men to use these shotguns. I can see how the shotgun was favorable both in it’s effectiveness and the knowledge the men had with it.
It is little history but important to show how much America has changed.
What really brings the point is when I played RDR1 placed before WW1 and even during when you play as a second character: There was the Mexican war, Fed growing and German pistols in total it was eye-opening.
P.S that era when the west was ending is sort of is saddening yet interesting.
I think hunting is more controversial because a significant percentage of the population practiced it as a part of their lifestyle and providing for themselves. I wonder what weapons modern recruits are most likely to be experienced with? For me it would be almost entirely shotguns or smaller rifles as I have family who do farm work or ratting/vermin killing but don't care about guns much outside of that, would suburban or urban recruits be more familiar with sporting rifles or pistols?
@@mattjk5299 Nowadays people are familiar with AR-15s before they enter service
Saddened to see the "west ending" when a lot of that was just colonial-era conquest and land grabs? And after that the US initiated a race war in the Philippines. This is a period that should be taught critically so as to purge the narrative of this type of colonial sentimentalism. @@adrianafamilymember6427
Goes to show how unnatural and un-American like Liberals are. They are anything but Americans and this explains there hatred for America
Mustard gas= Good
Shotgun = Bad
Trench Club =Ugly, lol.
Germans: "shotguns are war crimes!"
Also Germans: *uses mustard gas*
Exactly! Happy to shell civilians at Hartlepool, or in Paris, or use flamethrowers, or sink civilian passenger liners but - Oh My! A SHOTGUN?! Moral double standards.
Both sides used gas to be fair, Hitler himself was gassed in WWI.
I was looking for this meme of a comment. Hundreds of comments of "MY OL' PAPI DID IT WITH THIS VERY SHOT GUN" but not this golden piece of history.
My father served in the Malayan emergency during the 50’s.
He said that for jungle work his preferred weapon was a sawn off 12 bore pump shot gun. If nothing else he said the noise was enough to keep his spirits up, and it cleared the jungle like nothing else
The only reason it was called an emergency rather than a civil war is because British insurance companies wouldn't pay claims arising from a civil war.
@@meminustherandomgooglenumbers interesting. Can you substantiate that notion ?
A Putin play?
@@hugogreen4916 heck no, calling the British misnomer a Putin play when the Brits did it first wouldn't make any sense. In reality Putin's behavior toward Ukraine closely matches centuries of normal British and American behavior toward indigenous populations worldwide.
It's never a war crime the first time
so is rape
This hearks back to the use of grapeshot in cannons many years before with brutal efficiency, as shown at the battle of Culloden in 1746, against the Jacobite troops.
September 1918 Sgt Fred Lloyd found his regiment being held up by a German Platoon in a French village Loody grabbed a Winchester 1897, stuffed his pockets with shells and set off on a on man assault against the entrenched Germans For the next hour, until he collapsed from exhaustion, LLoyd's mates heard the boom of his shotgun as he methodically flushed the Germans out of the village LLoyd was awarded Distinguished Service Cross for his one man assault (MOH at that time was considered more of officers award)
The range of 20 to 30 yards mentioned in the vid is a huge underestimation. A hit with a single .33 caliber OO buckshot can take you out at 100 yards, easily. I suppose one could argue "effective range" because the pattern is dispersed and the hit probability drops, but WWI was mass attacks with groups attacking you, or you attacking groups in the other trench. If you fire into a group of men at 100 yards or so, you're liable to hit somebody out there, and the unlucky guy that takes that hit will likely be out of the fight.
It’s basically a handheld Claymore
A single buckshot would have a hard time killing you at 100 yards. Each buckshot has the energy of a handgun round. At 100 yards they lose a lot of energy. Not impossible but most likely no but it will still injure you.
@@brianx2504 Right. That's why I said "take you out" rather than killed, though it might well kill. Traditional subguns had 100 and 200 meter sights and if you got a hit out there with a 9mm you likely took that guy out of the fight.
@@kodiakkeith People take rifle rounds and keep fighting because of adrenaline. Stop trying to justify your fantasy. A 9mm round has far better ballistics than a piece of shot.
It Can’t take u out though!!
Thanks for this. I’d heard that shotguns were against international law and I always found that baffling. This clears it up. Working as a police officer on patrol, I loved my Remington 897 tactical shotgun and hung onto it when most other officers transitioned to the AR 15. Plus and minuses both ways, but I just felt better with the shotgun. Thanks again!
Personally I still think a cop is better of with a pump shotgun. Better in close in altercations and less over penetration. Plus most cops aren’t that proficient because they don’t practice and train enough. An AR 15 breaching into confined spaces will go through Sheetrock walls like paper,hitting unintended victims in other apartments or homes. Cops are not supposed to be warriors but peace keepers. SWAT should have all the heavy weapons not street cop.
@@fw1421 well, I wouldn’t say that an AR 15 is “heavier” than a shotgun, far from it, but other than that I agree with you. Most gun fights in law enforcement are within 20 to twenty five feet, and a shotgun is an absolutely awesome weapon inside that range. Police started carrying rifles after the North Hollywood shootout in 1997 where two heavily armed men with home made steel body armor held off police for about 45 minutes. They were finally killed but 8 civilians and twelve police officers were shot before the two were killed by a pistol round to the head. An AR 15 round could have penetrated the armor but they didn’t have any. That was a big turning point in thinking within police circles about rifles vs shotguns and the like. Still, my opinion is that though I definitely was glad there were guys carrying a rifle, just in case, but the majority of the time the shotgun is a better weapon for police.
There is lots of BS about "International Law" and the "Law of Armed Conflict" (LOAC) out there. I've seen otherwise competent NCO's and Officers spout the nonsense that using a .50 MG on troops is a war crime because it "does too much damage" so it can only be used against vehicles & material. So you can rip someone apart with a grenade, or hit them with a 155mm artillery shell, but a .50 BMG is off limits? Nonsense, even diplomats aren't that dumb. There are lots of others as well. Basically urban legends that are not supported by the actual laws. The laws have general principals like "inflicting unnecessary suffering" but do not generally list specific weapons or calibers. Use of glass fragments are considered banned (don't show up on an X-ray so hard for a doctor to remove), but even that is an interpretation.
I remember my first LOAC training the NCO was taking us through the material. However, he kept going "off script" to augment the training material with "his own knowledge", telling us about restrictions that turned out to be wholly made up in his own mind.
Currently, the media & politicians are hyper-ventilating about the use of Thermobaric weapons in Ukraine. It is a warhead that primarily uses heat instead of blast-frag. Not illegal. Been in use in the US military and many others for a long time.
For a long time the U.S. military's position was that soft-nosed or hollow-point ammo was a war crime, but we've changed that position and now issue it when appropriate.
@@jacobdillow2375 I think the ideal situation would be where teams of officers carry both.
The ideal would be that the police didn't carry any guns, or exist, but people suck so here we are.
British bobbies only have sticks and an authoritive/patronising tone for the most part (in general, outside of London), and they do alright. At least until a person of diverse complexion shows up looking a little suspicious, and then they're more afraid of getting accused of racism than locking down a potential terror threat and saving lives. You know how it is, that's a polite society for you. Wouldn't want to be accused of being impolite by suggesting that a diverse person walking into a packed music venue a fair bit after the venue started, carrying what appears to be a heavy backpack, is somewhat suspicious. Seems a diverse complexion is the police's kryptonite these days, like fuck, native criminals be like "grab the fake tan lads, we're going to make a fortune.".
I've only seen an armed officer in person once. He only had a handgun, but being English and not used to seeing that, I was suddenly feeling a lot less safe. Like, is there something I should know about, you know, should I be making myself scarce, seeking cover or what. So, being a polite Englishman, and at a urinal alongside him, I nervously glanced over and asked "Is that a genuine gun?" to which he said "Yeah, that it is.".
Perhaps he thought I was talking about his cock because i misidentified his modern style handcuffs. Because that's an easy mistake to make.
He seemed chipper enough and totally unconcerned, relaxed as he spoke, so I quickly felt a lot less concerned myself and basically returned to my normal relaxed state and said "Cool.", shrugged and then carried on with my own business. He was probably just a special cop or something rather than responding to any threat, right, right? If he was the threat, I'd have been done the moment i dropped my guard. I honestly didn't think that until just now, so fuck, that's a touch sobering 🤣
Whether there was a threat or not, if he was a genuine cop, he was a damn good cop that day. He likely caught on to my concern, not only due to my voice but also the fact that I commited the cardinal sin of talking to another man at a urinal. And he gave off the right level of friendliness to make me comfortable. That's good people skills right there, something many cops fail at.
Why do I mention that? Well, I think it showcases that the problem with cops having guns isn't the guns themselves, but the cops attitutde when they have them. If you're holding a gun and glaring at everyone who passes by, no one is feeling safe. But if you're smiling and being friendly, people feel safer, but then it might be the case that it's seen as weakness and thus taken advantage of. So where's the balance? You need the appropiate tools to deal with the threats faced, but you should also consider it a duty to not cause the public any distress by being an asshole. I think that's what the whole debate about cops and guns really boils down to, too many cops are outwardly antagonistic towards the public, either by training or just that they're assholes, and people just don't feel safe when such individuals are holding something that could end them in half a second if that cop felt it reasonable to do so. And it only takes one or two bad apples to taint the whole bunch.
A cop who seems/behaves as if they're on edge, puts everyone else on edge. That isn't safe. But meh, perhaps entirely the wrong place to voice that, but I just get into a flow when I'm on the loo. I was initially replying to a guy above, and didn't stop. But now I have to wipe my arse, so you know, as you were.
They literally filed an official complaint during a world war. That’s amusing as hell. That shotgun seriously if you’ve seen it in action. Is a beast.
The US and Germany were enemies. Of course they're going to do anything they can to fuck with us.
you never met a German? Very formal and structured people man look at ww2 these motherfuckers we're so hard core on being such point Dexter's they kept records of EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING like even wD crimes like idk which commander, what division, ect did these executions for this mass grave or gassed pows or Jews here and there this and that.
Qa
The Chief of Staff of the US Army called in the Judge Advocate General (the senior Army lawyer) and told him to write a legal brief as to whether shotguns were legal. The answer was yes, so he was told to draft the official US reply to Germany. In France, Pershing took a more direct approach, he told the Krauts for every American soldier they executed, he would hang a captured German officer (note that by world wide military practice, hanging is considered to be dishonorable and reserved for criminals, while being shot by a firing squad is considered to be an honorable death)
Retired Marine here. I thought since the 12 gauge work so well and the trenches. It would be perfect for a hallway. Even though I already have a standard 18 inch 870 I couldn't resist picking up a Tac 14.
Ok "Marine" you are a true Mensch 👍😛😂
I had a coworker sell me one of these vintage guns cheap after his father passed away with the caveat that I never sell it. I ended up gifting it to my favorite uncle who is a history buff and gun nut, and he had it retro-fitted into a trench gun years later. Such a cool piece of history.
I had a Remington 870 in USMC 1987-1991 still one of the best shotguns ever made. I remember training to aim for legs and ricochet shots off the ground.
Germans: we spent years training a new type of soldier to raid enemy trenches costing us millions
Americans: haha shotgun go splat
Americans: haha Slam-fire goes *Full-auto*
Model 12 Winchester hold the trigger and pump (poor man’s auto) l think the 97 works the same way , the model 1200 dose not at least not the 1 l have
@@janicewessel9603 basically the *no full auto in the building* meme. When germany complained about the shotguns
I had a Vietnam veteran as one of my Instructors at Marine NCO School.
I was on Sea Duty at the time, so my NCO School was at MCRD San Diego.
He was one of those salty old school Marines, and it was always cool to hear his war experiences.
He said he carried a shotgun on one patrol and that was it.
The unit he was with got into a firefight and he was under cover below a small berm.
He said he stuck the shotgun over a small dip in the berm and fired.
He said there was a momentary lull of about two or three seconds, and then the enemy started directing their fire in his direction.
The Zips wanted nothing to do with Mr. Shotgun.
However, the Staff Sergeant didn't like all of the attention the shotgun gave him, so when he got back to base, he turned the shotgun in and got his M16A1 back.
One of Murphy's laws of combat is not to draw attention to yourself, so you don't draw fire.
I was an M-60 gunner and they always delighted in pointing out that my life expectancy was mere seconds after I fired my first burst. Good times 0331!
The same reason the WWII soldier with the BAR was told not have a long burst of fire. The enemy would target the weapon
@@kuvasz5252 Not to mention the barrel would heat like an SOB in sustained fire and barrel changes were NOT easy (screw in rather than just a quick twist & lock change). Always a good idea to let a BAR cool a bit between 4-6 round bursts.
@@patrickdurham8393
Semper Fi brother!!!!0331 FMF
Wow.
That is fascinating.
Here.
Have another paragraph.
imagine starting a war, then saying... time out, that's not very gentlemanly of you....we want a ban on a gun...
Poison gas, flame throwers, saw back bayonets were all just fine with the Germans. The Germans also used hunting ammunition in their sniper rifles. Hypocrisy at its lowest.
@Peter felts The first use of gas was French but the first effective use were German.
@@larsdahlen319 where was that use by the French?
@@virtuafighter3 August 1914 the gas used were Brom.
Ypres were the first successful use of poison gas by the Germans I believe that was Kloral gas their by called Ypres gas.
It should be observed that the first use by the French was tear gas not poison gas.
The German were first with that.
You can read details about it in Wikipedia, at least the Swedish one.
The Americans used flame throwers against the Japanese and cluster bombs against the Viet Cong and NVA not to mention nuclear weapons against the Japanese.
In addition it's well known that US marines committed war crimes against surrendering German troops.
Better practice what you preach
@@larsdahlen319 Canadian troops first victims of gas.
Commonwealth troops were the best in Commonwealth in particular Australian troops struck fear into.the hearts of German and Turkish troops in WW1 and 2
full length barrel. I was fortunate to have purchased that same model several
years ago. The barrel on mine is full choked, and was manufactured in Belgium
in 1954. It has the magazine stop feature, a small lever on the left side of
the receiver, handy for a hunter to change the load in the chamber quickly. That
shotgun is versatile, durable, reliable, and equally effective with bird shot, buck,
or foster slugs.
Are you talking about the winchester pump?
When did they have it made in belgium? And what manufacturer made it?
@@tbjtbj4786
Winchester pumps were never made in Belgium, he must be talking about the Browning A5 auto loader, that was the first patent that Browning didn't sell the design rights to Winchester.
The story is actually funny, Browning had designed several firearms that Winchester bought the patent rights to and simply shelved them just to keep other arms makers from getting them and even worse getting to know their secret weapon John Moses Browning.
Browning believed deeply in his new auto loading shotgun design and was afraid if he sold the design rights to Winchester that they might shelve it like several of his other designs, so he went to Remington to show it to them, the president of Remington Arms must have been thoroughly impressed with it because he dropped dead from a heart attack when he was looking at it in his office with Browning and his brother sitting just outside in the lobby.
Remington, the surviving management anyways, told Browning they were indeed interested in it but they were going to be busy for a little while sorting out a few problems they had at the moment and they'd get back to him.
So he decided to look outside of the US for a partner and instead of just outright selling the design he'd cut a deal with FN in Belgium to produce them under his name, that's how the Browning Firearms Company was born and is the reason they've never actually had their own production facility instead opting to have other arms makers produce theirs under contract, principally FN in Belgium and Miroku in Japan (some models starting in the 70's), in the immediate years after WW2 FN's factory had been bombed out by the Allies because the Germans had seized it and were using it to produce arms during the war so Browning had domestic US manufacturers producing their arms under contract until FN got their factory back up and running.
@@dukecraig2402 thats what I was thinking. But shotgun are my lower tir of gun knowledge.
Here most people used shotgun for hunting and to be different i liked handguns and rifles more.
@@dukecraig2402 i am glad that remington got the American right to make it eventually. I like my old 16ga rem 11.
@@tbjtbj4786
I grew up shooting skeet, then once in the Army they ask "Who knows how to shoot a shotgun?" so of course being stupid I stuck my hand up, that one time that I drew a shotgun out of an arms room started a fascination with me and after discharging from the military I started collecting military shotguns.
Please make more WWl & WWll videos 🙏🏻 as this channel is AWESOME!
"A horizontal spread of 9 feet and vertical spread of 3 feet." When we're talking the close distances of trench warfare (which is the context in which this spread figure is mentioned) that's a complete myth. Even at 100 yards where you could get that spread you're also significantly diminishing the odds of hitting the enemy.
Any time marine stuff shows up in these "history" videos it's a) usually embellished and b) usually something the Army did but gets attributed to marines.
My Dad, a Navy man, used an M-97 in WWII, not a trench gun though, but rather a sawed off bird shooter. It was used as a "deck broom" and "hatchway howitzer" during at least one prize crew operation, possibly more.
I’m not sure i believe you
@@panchopistola8298 I doubt Jacob cares about your opinions
@@panchopistola8298 wow
They didn't "saw them off", 20" barrel police riot guns were what trenchguns were built on, the military also procured regular riot guns during both WW1 and WW2 from any manufacturers contracted to make trenchguns for military police and security details.
During WW2 regular long barreled models of shotguns that were used to build trenchguns were also procured along with models not used for the building of combat shotguns such as auto loaders, these were US property marked in the same manner as combat shotguns were and were used for training aerial gunners and for high ranking officers to use for "leisure" activities such as trap and skeet shooting and hunting, RHIP (Rank Has It's Privileges).
@@dukecraig2402 would any of what you said matter when a sailor or soldier decides to shorten one’s own gun?
It’s interesting that shotguns are such a American weapon. Almost no other military copied it’s use. Which is strange because it’s a very effective close quarters weapon.
American gun culture grew at the same time as assembly lines and replaceable parts. Making shotgun pellets would have been too laborious for any previous gun-wielding infantry which is why they stuck to bullets.
@@MK_ULTRA420
The method for making shotgun pellets is simple and was developed in Europe.
Molten lead is poured from varying heights of a "shot tower", different size shot is made by capturing the falling molten lead in large vats of water and then screened for size, like water falling from a height the further it falls the finer the droplets so the finer the shot.
@@dukecraig2402 You're right but by the time of their development every European military was used to using bullets.
The beauty of the shotgun is that it will send down range almost anything that you can fit in the barrel. If you can make it fit in a 12 gauge shell it will shoot it.
Rocks, nails, coins lead shot, copper bullets. Rock salt. Broken glass. It’s a shoulder fired cannon
@@MK_ULTRA420 bollicks. shotguns and shot have been used since flintlock days
The German forces used poison gas, but a shotgun is out of bounds. That makes sense.
this was a great video so mch info to listen to and stuff you put on the screen deff would love to see more
Thanks for watching!
Lol so I guess mustard gas is just fine then right?
Of course, it’s just German perfume
Excellent video.
I have a Mossberg 930 SPX to protect my home and family. 8 rounds of 00 terror.
My Dad was a Gunnery Sergeant in Vietnam USMC.
Been around weapons my entire life. That will never change.
RIP Dad.
.... as you never know when the evil Hun will mount a trench raid on your home ....
BSM, not a nice way to have to live your life.
@@madamemeng884 My family and are I are happy and healthy. That's the only way to live.
@@madamemeng884 strangers on the internet explaining to other people how their life wasnt good? Color me surprised
Thank you for your dad's service in the war my grandpa while being graded 4f by the army during world war II served anyway down in Texas guarding German prisoners not in a role like he was but still a soldier
Great video. Thank you.
I carried a Mossberg 500 in the Marines. I loved it.
U.S. Marines carried 12-gauge shotguns in Vietnam and were equipped with bass shells. I saw several varieties of shotguns being carried including the Model 97 Winchester. I recon that 70-year old gun was the oldest weapon used in the Vietnam War. I also saw more modern shotguns (both pump action and semi auto) being used. I gained the utmost respect for the 12-gauge as a defense weapon while I was a photographer in Vietnam. I was with an M-60 machine gum position along a trail at night. There was a staff sergeant with a Model 97 there. Two V.C. tripped a flare a few yards down the trail. The Staff took them both out before the M-60 even fired.
I live on a fenced acre and a quarter in semi-rural California. That experience with a 12-gauge shotgun lead me to choose a modified Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun as my home defense weapon. The rounds I have chosen are those used in the Rhodesian Rebellion and are a combination of #2 shot and #2 buckshot... More shot coverage of shot than 00 buck with close to the penetration of 00 buck.
Model 97's were also produced in the trenchgun configuration during WW2, along with just about every model of pump shotgun made at the onset of the US's involvement in the war including some like the Steven's Model 620 that often get misidentified as Model 97's since they have the same shape receiver's, trenchguns have even showed up with scroll engraved receivers that were intended to be manufactured as regular shotguns that were in mid production when the government seized all production of shotguns when the US entered WW2.
Model 97's, Model 12 Winchester's, Model 37 Ithaca's, Model 620 Steven's, were all made into trenchguns during WW2, along with the regular 20" barrel police riot gun versions of them that were procured for military police, security details and the guarding of POW's even in the states.
Some pump shotguns were even procured with regular length hunting barrels and were US property marked like all other shotguns were including auto loader models that weren't used as combat shotguns, these were used to train aerial gunners and for high ranking officers to use for "leisure" activities like trap shooting and hunting, as you know RHIP, (Rank Has It's Privileges).
The quickest way to tell if a Model 97 trenchgun was manufactured during WW1 or WW2 is by the type of receiver, all WW1 trenchguns were made on solid frame receiver's since the addition of the bayonet lug/handguard assembly prohibited the take down feature of those style receiver's from being used, all WW1 Model 97 "riot guns" procured for security reasons were take down receiver's however.
Before WW2 Winchester had stopped making solid frame receiver Model 97's so all WW2 manufactured Model 97 trenchguns were built on take down receiver's even though the take down feature was negated, also the sheet metal handguard of WW2 manufactured Model 97's had less holes punched in them because they found that the type made for WW1 had the handguard's ripped off easily due to the increased number of holes in them.
Most 97's used in Vietnam were of the WW2 manufactured batch since there more had survived after WW2 because they were made in much larger number's, there are however some pictures of troops in Vietnam with WW1 vintage Model 97's but they're rare compared to the number's seen of WW2 manufacturer.
Curiously after WW2 the US military officially withdrew all Model 97's from service and declared them obsolete, however countless pictures and eyewitness testimony have shown that they were indeed used in that conflict, this is undoubtedly from shotguns that were "off the books" in individual arms rooms as a result of having been written off as combat losses during WW2 and even Korea but later gathered up after battles.
Joe Poyer, the author of Winchester Combat Shotguns and Other US Combat Shotguns, stated that while writing his book and working as a reporter for a Los Angeles news station he was sent to the middle east to cover the first Gulf War, being a collector and authority on US military shotguns he saw what was undoubtedly a Winchester Model 12 trenchgun in the hands of an Air Force security guard when he passed through an airbase there, upon returning after the war and inquiring to the Air Force historical department about their current use of Model 12 trenchguns for his book they informed him that it was impossible since all Model 12's had been removed from service years before.
The collecting of US military shotguns is a fascinating and often frustrating hobby since manufacturing and procurement records along with the military's records of use are incomplete due to shotguns being a "stop gap" weapon, I myself have been pulling my hair out for over 30 years collecting them and their even rarer accessories like ammo pouches and bandoliers, even finding books on them can be difficult since they're never big sellers and aren't in print for long.
@@dukecraig2402 I appreciate your sharing years of accumulated knowledge. Thank you.
The North Vietnamese counted older weapons among its arsenal, although in fairly limited numbers.
Same, 870 Remington protects mine, and all my children's homes, and it'll be passed on as a house warming gift as well.
We have survived 2 home invasions, no loss of life I can say that was mourned, was our own. Good tool.
A friend of mine was a sheriff's deputy and he carried a Mossberg 500 loaded with #4 buck shot. Hard hitting and more pellets per shot.
I once owned an Winchester 1897 Trench gun and the bayonet. It shot to point of aim better than my more modern shotgun.
According to Prussians Shotguns are war crimes.
But not Flame Throwers and Poison Gas.
I had worked with a Korean War vet who stated his issuance of a ‘97 upon arriving there. He pled for a rifle, but later realized that he would have died several times if his wishes had been granted. He also carried an Iver Johnson 22lr revolver sent from his Dad.
In a book of cowboy sayings I found: "Buckshot means burying." In my front yard is a small sign reading "Protected by 00 Buck."
Well done video, thanks! I have a 97 that has passed thru three generations. It is not a military model but it does slam fire, discovered that feature forty years ago when I was out shooting it one day. Beautiful shotgun.
Just discovered your channel and promptly subscribed. Not for the content, that is already been covered in dozens of videos over the decades. It's just plain nice to listen to a narrator who knows how to speak fucking English without any added dramatics. (Dark Docs, are you listening??)
Thomas Crossley's Masterpiece , the Winnie mod.97 . One smooth chucker & still laboring every Season on Americas Dove Fields.
In the trenches the long bolt action rifles were not effective due to their seize and low firing rate.The germans developed for this reason the submachine gun (MP18).
Except for the U-boat, there was no German weapon more feared by the Allies than the MP-18. The Winchester 97 was seen as an effective counter to the MP-18, as the Allies had no submachine gun of their own.
@@johnh.tuomala4379 allies had no smg? Thompson, M2 grease gun,
@@snakeoo7ca I believe you're thinking of World War II. I was referring to World War I (The Great War). The Allies had no submachine guns in that war, unless you count the Italian Villar Perosa, which had been originally designed as an aircraft machine gun.
In World War II the Allies obsession with submachine guns goes back to at least 1939. Winston Churchill expressed concern about the Germans having so many of them.
This was what led the British Army to adopt the Thompson in large numbers. They had previously rejected the Thompson because they considered it "a gangster's weapon", which they as an army of
"gentlemen" thought beneath them.
@@snakeoo7ca You are thinking of World War Two.
The Germans were issuing C96 mausers and P08 lugers with stocks for trench raiders before the MP18 and the luger snail magazine came before the MP18 and was later adapted to the MP18.
The C96 was not fully automatic until the mid 20s, however a handful received 40 round magazines in 1917 before the project was abandoned for the MP18.
We had shotguns issued to us on ship, US Navy. For security alert teams.
Makes excellent sense for use on a ship.
I have a Mossberg 500 combo. I bought an additional home defense barrel, then added a heat shield, side saddle, pistol grip, and M-4 style telescoping butt stock. I've had that gun for 20 years and LOVE it.
Watched a crime program set in the UK in which a lady shot a couple of people with a shotgun. The coroner said the dead man had a small hole under his eye, the rear of his skull was missing and his brain was a few feet away.
The shotgun is indeed a most deadly weapon. Having used them for over 50 years, firing a huge variety all the way from .410G to 4 bore with everything from .410G No.9 shot in a modern centre fire cartridge to a single .58 ball in a smooth bore muzzle loader, the shotgun is an incredibly versatile piece of kit & it’s utility in trenches & enclosed spaces against a numerically superior enemy is a no-brainer.
Given that Browning produced the first pump-action in 1893 & the famous Auto-5 in 1900, I’m surprised it didn’t appear on the Western Front until the Americans joined the fray. The Germans probably got the hump because they hadn’t thought of using such a weapon for themselves.
One wonders what the Germans would have said if General Thompson’s own & subsequently legendary version of ‘The Trench Broom’ in .45ACP had reached the battlefield before war’s end?
‘Nein, nein, bring back the shotgun. Bitte!’
Nien! LOL
ATI makes a nifty little .410 on the M4 platform. Fun to shoot.
Nice one 👍.
Don't forget everybody's favorite automatic battle rifle.
An acquaintance of mine was robbed at his store, after the robber ran out he followed with a shotgun and ordered the man to stop. The robber fired several shots as he ran, my buddy fired one 00 buck. One pellet hit the guy in the back of the head and he dropped stone dead.
In the Vietnam War, New Zealand forward scouts used a Remmington pump to good effect.
We had 2 shotguns on my ship's security force. When a security alert was called we all ran like hell because the first 2 sailors to show up at the small arms locker got them. The rest got 45's.
Great video. Thanks!
During the Fall of the Philippines in 1942, some US troops dug out some "Air Corps Riot Guns" and walked around the line popping rounds into the trees to take care of snipers that had snuck in. It went on for a couple days until a US officer screamed about how it was a war crime and the shotguns were taken away. The Japanese snipers were quite happy after that.
fuck that guy shotguns arnt a war crime if you call shotguns war crimes look at automatics or better yet an automatic shotgun. Especily if clearing tree lines with shotguns as chances are thiers no one their so your just shooting trees if an enemy sniper/observer so happened to be in one then so be it he's an enemy otherwise your just shooting trees.
calling bullshit on anyone popping random rounds from a shotgun into trees. snipers would be stupid to be posted that close to the US lines
Of course someone would cry about a shotgun being used especially a officer too
Should of just ignored him
Seeing what the prisoners had done to them by the same people,, I'd have gotten more sent over and the officer sent home 😩😩😩
Germany:"Chlorine gas is ok but shotgun is a no no."
Thanks for info. I learned something unique about WWI
When I was in AIT at Ft Knox I was put on the ASP guard detail and we were issued this model shotgun.
One of the best weapons you could have in a trench system and as we know they don't like it up them
We had Mossberg 550s and Remington 870s for repelling boarders in the USN.
I'm a 120# female & I never felt safer than when I had my shotgun close. It was old & seen many owners some played smithy on it & it had hair triggers. No man could pull the first trigger & have the gun fire, without the second barrel going off during the recoil. Then I shot it. My fingers were so small that I didn't touch the second trigger. It's owner was so surprised he gave me the gun on the spot. My husband then got so mad he tried hiding it. His buddies found our & gave him such a hard time that he gave it back. I did sell it to a good friend who still has it & promised it will come back to me when he parts with it.
Most of this story is a lie. Why do you lie on the internet? whos gonna give a fuck?
What do you use now to stay safe?
When I'm living in rural Ohio, I do not feel comfortable unless I have a good gun. That is why I came upon that shotgun I wrote about above.
Never felt safer? You should live in berkshire, uk. It would blow your mind, people here dont carry guns at all.
@@zaphodbeeblebrox9109 Because they aren't allowed to.
My uncle described his pump action shotgun use in the Vietnam War as an instantaneous defense when attacked while patrolling in dense undergrowth. While in the lead he would fire to the left, then forward and then to the right before hitting the ground.
I have heard, & I don't know if it's true, that the German objection was that the U.S. shotguns were loaded with soft lead (non-jacketed) buckshot. Exposed lead projectiles were banned by The Hague Convention. To quote Hogg & Weeks, (two British weapons experts) "We fail to see the moral difference between an expanding bullet & an artillery shell which blows a man to bits". Anyway, the U.S. later started using copper plated buckshot. I always assumed that part of the reason was to address the exposed lead technically. (they also retain their shape & penetrate deeper than soft lead) Thank You for the excellent documentary
Having fired both into flesh a number of times, and having recovered about 50 or so "00" pellets, I have learned the following:
I can say with certainty that there is ZERO performance difference between plated and non-plated. Neither expand appreciably unless they hit bone, and neither expands more or less than the other.
Also, the leftover aluminium (or possibly galvanized) hull 12ga shells in my Dad's WWII footlocker do not contain plated pellets.
@@jacobmccandles1767 Good to know. I wasn't sure if they were plating the buckshot in WWII. In Vietnam I'm pretty sure they did. I've always used lead buck mainly because they're cheaper & they always did what they were supposed to.
Hard coating of shot means less deformation in the bore. The pellets fly straighter if not bent, mashed as soft lead.
@@mikesweeney5244 That's a good point. I remember reading that. They even plate some birdshot for that reason if I remember right. I've always been a cheapskate though & used unplated shot. I have some military grade buckshot shells. I have half a mind to open one up & look. You guys have got me curious.
It wasn't the Hague Convention that was signed by countries banning that type of ammo, that's an often thrown around myth, it was an agreement signed some years before the Hague Covention, and despite popular belief the US never signed it.
Although during WW1 the US was eager to appear in compliance with the agreement and even went as far as to say that shotguns were being issued to troops for the purposes of shooting grenades and carrier pigeons out of the sky, it even went as far as to publish a picture in a magazine, I believe the aforementioned one in Scientific American, of a US soldier on a skeet range with a trenchgun as part of the disinformation campaign, that's how the myth got started that the US used shotguns in WW1 for those purposes, anyone whose ever shot skeet or trap knows how ridiculous the idea is that someone could effectively shoot grenades and carrier pigeons out of the sky with buckshot.
Should have said the US Army's 2nd Infantry uses trench guns thats who the Marines were attached to
That would have been a great detail to include for sure!
This was the geniuses of “Teufel Hunden” the name the Germans called the US Marines better known in English as “Devil Dogs!”
Awesome gun. Still on the list of best duck guns ever. My friend hunted with the old "knuckle buster" model 97, it had a hammer that would smash your thumb if your hand was too high on the stock when you racked it. I am partial to the model 12 myself
Imagine protesting a shotgun, but having no problem using mustard gas
Well, if the Germans got all butt hurt over a shotgun, I wonder what they would have done if the Thompson submachine gun had showed up in time for the war.
I don't think they would gotten hurt over the Thompson since they had the MP-18 and they were already fighting Italy who started fielding Beretta M1918s.
I don't think they would have complained very long because the Thompson would have put a stop to it
Your honor I object.
Why?
Because this is devastating to my case.
Over ruled
My Grandfather was in the 🇬🇧 RFC, WW1.
He had a flying accident, incident, details of service unknown unfortunately... However I have x 3 brass 12 bore/gauge carts which he returned from war with, plus a leather straight jacket contraption for his back injuries.
This deserves a follow!
2:46 Imagine trap-shooting dozens of bosch grenades as they try to fly over your wire. I hope this happened at least once lol
Pull!
This is incredible as it was the Germans who first used poison chlorine gas in 1915 in Ypres Belgium against allied troops. Something like hundreds of tons of the stuff. Naturally, it was awful to the allied troops . But shotguns are a no-no?
My thoughts, as well.
Don't forget the first use of flamethrowers, but shotguns are bad apparently lol.
It was first used on French colonial troops from North Africa. And lets not forget they also attacked civilians on the UK mainland, using Zeppelins and their ships shelling coastal towns and cities.
As a german myself, I am inclined to agree, that this demand was pretty hypocritical. WWI was an armsrace, with all sides using new weapons all the time. In the early stages we gunned down frenchmen charging into machine guns in their bright red uniforms, and would have laughed at the demands to "stop using 08/15 Machine guns". Keep in mind we also developed the Sub-Machine Gun for similar purposes in trench raids.
@@elgappa8693 And to be fair you get the myth on both sides of "Lions lead by Donkeys", no, more Officers and especially high ranking Generals were killed on both sides in WW1 than WW2 easily. To the point where the British Army alone specifically issued an order for high ranked Officers to not be in the thick of it as much because they were getting killed left and right. It came into popular culture after the 1960's-1970's and you will still see people who think they know a bit of WW1 history parrot. Except, the hundreds of Generals from all countries, could literally not fight the war differently except in certain campaigns like Africa. It's not like they just gave up thinking of new ways to win, it's not like they wanted thousands to slog it out and die a day, clearly not. They were forced to go forward. It's not like they never tried to come up with workarounds, but none worked because it was new technology forced into being used in frontal assaults.
The light portable machine gun, tanks, creeping barages, advancements in artillery, radio instead of telegraph wires, German Stormtroopers and their new way of attacking the enemy, unfortunately all had to fight the war like that and it took until 1918 for the allies to finally have a real combined offensive that worked with the fresh influx of American troops. And finally, most soldiers on both sides, if you read the rightfully tragic poetry made by a few well known poets, then contrast that with the letters sent home, most of them all thought they had a duty to fight and win.
TL;DR: We have the myth of the brave soldier lead by dumbfucks, which certainly happened, but over all, for all countries the higher ups tried in vain to figure out how to win while being forced into a massive slaughter. And the soldiers themselves overall, even the public at home, thought it was worth winning.
In the days before the smg became standard issue for close quarters, the shotgun sounds like it would've been a good choice.
Pretty optimistic stats for range and energy of shotgun!!!!!! LMAO!!
I offer you a 150 yard head start…
Good propaganda I guess…
The Germans were the first to use MP during the war, the MP 18. They called it "Grabenfeger", in English Trench Sweeper. The plump came out during a short time, not simultaniously. The effect and range was the same.
I'd never really thought about it before, but a pump-action shotgun with a bayonet fixed would have been a very handy thing to have around in World War I. It's a shame the Allies didn't have them earlier.
We were supposed to have Thompson Sub machine guns but those were readily avaiable until WW2. They were designed as a trench sweeper with the forward handle
I believe New Zealand forces were able to use shotguns in either the Korean or Vietnam war as they were there as ‘peace keepers’ , all I can say is that in the jungle that I couldn’t think of another gun I’d rather have on me
@@unvaxxeddoomerlife6788 it was Vietnam they used them I have just checked , however you are correct NZ were not peace keeping there , later on in East Timor was when they were peace keeping with them .
Add the Australians and the British 14th Army in Burma
@@scottallpress3818 you win the most refreshing post of 2022. Instead of being offended and getting into an keyboard war, you take the time to double check, learn more, and post back some additional interesting information. Seriously, amigo, I salute you! Lots of bozos could learn from this.
@@rjohnson5120 thanks mate appreciate the comments , I’ve worked really hard in my personal and professional life to be like this . And yes I agree too many people in the comment sections are just looking for some kind of unproductive mud slinging match .
@@colbeausabre8842 thanks for that , I feel like any jungle environment id want a 12g over anything else . Although I guess in some clearings etc a rifle would be the better bet
Yes it was a bit hypocritical coming from an enemy that lobbed mustard gas into opposing troops.
Why was it hypocritical when the French used it first?
I read about an Australian officer who used a sawn off shotgun at Gallipoli (ww1 ) for clearing trenches he was made to cease when it was officially known
Nice video. The last picture with the two marines features a M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle
Great story - The first U.S. combat use of the shotgun - Battle of New Orleans in 1814 - Then in 1861 in The American Civil War. In 1900 (Winchester Mod. 1897) was used against the Philippine Moro's. Next - 1916 Pershing's expedition into Mex. (Mod. 97') - Then WW1.
And the RIFLE seen in the WW2 picture @ min. 7:32 Is a "B.A.R." .30 cal. Browning Auto. Rifle, (w/Box Magazine) ...NOT a shotgun.
The battle of New Orleans was amazing , someone should have wrote a song about it.
@@ducknorris233 That song would be a piece of "Driftwood, - J." (circa 1958)... who would drift it by J. Horton in 1959.
@@mosriteminioncause7741 And I'm kin to J Horton. My grandma was a Horton from Haughton LA where johnny is buried.
@@ridgerunner106 Hey, thats GREAT! Heard his song many times as a kid, and probably taught me my first history lesson.
Germans: Releases mustard gas to infantry.
Americans: Uses trench shotguns.
Germans: Wait, that's illegal!
Tbf there's no mask for trench shotguns
@@MK_ULTRA420 Or flamethrower
And over a 100 years today, you still cannot beat a 12 gauge pump shotgun.
There are few small arms more intimidating than a shotgun. It commands respect and inspires cooperation.
Don't U.S. troops use shotguns in combat to this day?
I've spoken with combat Vets who have told me they were "the shotgun guy" when at war in the middle east.
Yes
Yet machine guns that could cut a man in half were just fine. The logic of that time is hard to grapple with. The real reason the Germans complained was they didn't have their own shotguns.
Yeah I don't get how a country that was known for their use of chemical weapons had the nerve to complain about shotguns because the caused "undue suffering". I guess they thought those soldiers lying in hospital beds for weeks, before finally dying because of the chemical burns in their lungs were just taking a vacation. Like you said, just sounds like they were butthurt that they didn't start using them first.
They didn't like Americans using shotguns because they were getting a lot of their men killed by shotguns while trying to attack American trenches
My dad carried a model 97 Winchester trench gun in his squad car as a police officer. It had a 19.5 inch barrel. He used to say the first shot would cut you in half and the second shot would make a crowd out of you.
I did not go to Vietnam. but a friend of mine who I grew up with did. He Joined the Marine Corp. Upon his return we had occasion to talk at length about it. He carried a 12 Gauge shotgun. He spent a year, mostly in the bush. That was his combat weapon. Not the M16.
"Buy a shotgun!" - Joe Biden
Sorry, but the 2 Marines at 7:49 are not carrying shotguns. The man on the left is carrying a BAR 30.06 automatic rifle.
The Marine on the right appears to be carrying a .30 caliber carbine
Look carefully, the Marine on the left is holding a Winchester model 97. You can see the front pump forearm, squared receiver, external hammer.
As a former US Army Infantry squad leader the rules of engagement I gave my men were to dispatch the enemy anyway they can, just like they would you. Sgt D
Ths pump sound serves as a great first warning if needed. Especially in the moonlight.
Germany: Uses poison gas and flame throwers, and submarines to torpedo ships without warning.
Sees shotguns.
“Hey! No fair!”
Spoiler alert mate...Winston Toadstool-Lord of the Admiralty actually ordered that German seamen be shot in the water 🏊♂when their ships went down violating a long held tradition of ALL combatants to rescue them if possible. The British in WWII bombed German civilian cities (bomber Harris-kill the factory workers in their homes & demoralize the enemy ) whilst the Germans had only targeted Military locations in England. It was only after the British refusal to stop that Mr Hipster retaliated by bombing London ...thus the beginning of the Blitz. Winnie also wanted desperately to use poison gas in WWII whereas the most evil man in history forbade the use of the same because it was inhumane (and probably because he had been affected by chlorine gas in WWI as was my Grandfather whilst Churchill was merely affected by alcohol) ..nothing is simple and WAR is the CRIME !⏳
@@sheerluckholmes7720 So? I was talking about shotguns.
Ships carrying war material were legally sunk. They were torpedoed without warning because the smart allied leaders decreed to arm those ships. Before that the German U-boats would take the passengers off the ship.
@@BasementEngineer Sinking passenger ships is one of the main reasons America entered the war in the first place, along with the zimmerman telegram.
@@epa316 The Zimmermann telegram was a fraud instigated by the British.
Passenger liners were used to ship war material, and the Germans had large ads put into USA newspapers to warn the populace that these ships were subject to U-boat attacks.
While I served in the 70s and 80s, the shotgun was carried by Reactionary and armory security personnel. In Nam shotguns were used as pot pipes. Two people could get stoned with the same hit.
"The Chief purpose of using {a shotgun} in combat is the killing or putting out of action , at close range , as many as possible of the enemy in as short a time as possible ." - Bgdr. Gen. Samuel T . Ansel
1911 - 12 , we protested against the use of flame throwers by German soldiers clearing American trenches . Sadly , the quote holds true for the efficiency of the weapon .
I own a Remington Model 10 which were also modified and used as trench guns in WW1. Mfg. date on mine is 1906. Remington didn't name it model 10 until 1910. Interesting design in that it has no exposed hammer and is bottom load and bottom eject. The idea was to reduce dirt access points.
The mod 97 then the mod 12 then the Mod 10 Remington then the Ithaca mod 37??? Specially hardened #3 buckshot ( Vietnam)...no deflecting round ball in the Jungle.
It’s laughable that the Germans objected to the shotgun when they invaded your country ,used gases and bayonets and all sorts of devices to murder. It reminds me of that old saying all is fair in war and there is no glory just a murder Mayham and death. The Americans just improvised in a rough situation and used a tool That was most effective for the situation. And I remember all the soldiers who gave their lives for freedom, to fight against tyranny and ruthless invaders. These are my boys they’re all my boys and I will never forget them and there sacrifice for my freedoms that I live today. God bless America
At first: British troops also had sawblade bayonnets and sawblade engineer/ pioneers swords. Second: You only see Allied side. Here in Germany shotguns had nearly never been service arms of police or military. Only in 1830s/ 1840s few small , mostly southern states ordered small numbers of side by side shotguns , only given to policemen for extraordinary events. What happened to this shotguns after 1871, i don' t know. Also what ,Wildwest Stories' are for US citizens, had been in Germany/Austria ,Forrest officials and poachers' stories. In those german stories, the shotguns appear as ,the criminals weapons', while the Förster ( Forrest officials , literally Forresters) had been armed with rifles. Even today the few german soldiers or policemen who have access to shotguns can only fire to destroy things, for example doors, may be shooting a dangerous dog, but firing the shotguns at a person is strictly forbidden.
So, there is a large cultural difference in USA and Germany about shotgun use, it seems that US citizens don' t know this.
Your arguments seem pretty onesided to me.
The Entente-Powers were quick to use flamethrowers und poison gas themselves after Germany introduced them. In a War, no side uses purely fair methods. And the US-Government complained over the cowardice of german submarines themselves, as one trooptransport was sunk by them. Like you said, all is fair in a war and anybody uses the means to win.
@@raoulbraden5489 France began the use of chemical weapons in WWI.
@@BasementEngineer Thats correct. They used Teargas. I was reffering to the use of poison gas.
@@brittakriep2938 -- No offense, Britta. As an American. I can own any weapon I so choose to. We do know what a Shotgun round can do to a human body. That's the point.
If you had the BEST made 9mm pistol in the world, in your hand, pointing it at five criminals, who also are pointing their pistols at you..
And you were telling this criminals, repeatedly, to drop their weapons. Would they?
Or?
If you had a Shotgun in your hands, pointing it at these same criminals? Would they drop their weapons if told so by you?
I'd guess, Britta. That there would be a shootout with 9mm flying both ways. Some one(s) will get hurt or die.
With a Shotgun in your hand. I'd guess those criminals would drop their weapons. No one dead. No one hurt.
That's the point, of a Shotgun.
But death by, Shotgun, pistol, rifle, sword, knife, rock. Is still death.
Shotgun. Buy one. Auto or Pump. Learn how to use it. It's the best home defense weapon made.