Full podcast episode: th-cam.com/video/4KiO8GRgwDk/w-d-xo.html Lex Fridman podcast channel: th-cam.com/users/lexfridman Guest bio: Chris Tarbell is a former FBI special agent and cybercrime investigation specialist who brought down Ross Ulbricht and Silk Road, and Hector Monsegur (aka Sabu) of LulzSec and Anonymous.
Thank you for mentioning Aaron. He was a young man that truly understood the value of the digital commons and the need to freely share information. He left a huge legacy for us to live up to.
You owe it to him, Aaron Swartz. Perhaps doing multiple episodes on him and his story and his achievements and what it means today. Please do this asap, thank you.
Aaron Swartz was both a genius and a genuine altruist - a very rare thing. He was extraordinarily productive and, in the opinion of many, one of the finest minds of his generation. This was an incalculable and senseless loss. RIP Aaron. Your memory brings light in the darkest hours and inspires me to do good. Many thanks and condolences to the Swartz family. ❤
Aaron Swartz was writing a blog post about Batman the day before allegedly committing suicide. That doesn't make much sense. Also he rejected the plea bargain so he could fight his case in court. If he didn't have the fortitude of mind to go through with a trial that could cost him years in jail, he would have just taken the plea bargain. And let's not forget he wrote on his blog that the one thing he was worried about was that the secret service would come get him. They sure did. A.S. was trying to expose institutional corruption. Maybe he had something big on some of the shady things allegedly going on at the medialab.
ah yes. CP to be specific. :( I am looking for a inconspicouos YT link pertaining to that. JSTOR did not want to file charges anymore and thought it passe but MIT WAS very adamant in pressing charges (as his family and friends stated: they built a case against him by just taking videos of him stealing information, why?) When i found this piece of info I felt for Aaron: he must have been very very terrified for himself and for the people he cared for.
I think he created a service to make public court records accessible to the public. This was more dangerous to establishment than academic papers. Gave power to the people my making court proceedings accessible to the people, not restricted
I get his answer: We have separate legislative, executive, and judiciary powers. If you want to change the law, go to the legislators. Other powers follow those laws - that is how you get a lawful society.
While Aaron Swartz did download a massive amount of academic content from JSTOR, he did not publicly release these documents before his untimely death.
Before the internet, one went to the library to read the free copies of journals. Who paid for the research? That's their payroll, their living. Why was Swartz entitled to take the scientists' published research for free? That's one reason for copyright laws- to protect the income of the authors.
Honestly, he's wrong. You can't really say with certainty he is guilty of any single one of the charges he was facing. Computer hacking? No, he didn't hack any computer or account. He was essentially just downloading things. His "crime" was sharing the files he downloaded. Even then, that's a non-violent crime and as such his punishment shouldn't have been as severe. Maybe he should've just been slapped with a huge fine so MIT could "recoup" the financial losses that would be caused by the free distribution of those papers. "The role of the FBI is to uphold the law" - That may sound like a solid rebuttal but if you actually think about it you'll realize this means the FBI isn't responsible for protecting US citizens either. If anyone commits a horrendous act but they do so without technically breaking any law or at least not a very important one, then that means they'll get away with it because the FBI won't bother to go after them.
There is a theory, that is quite a bit below actual conspiracy level...that Aaron was going to apply macro scale analysis to many gigabytes of data in order to potentially expose corruption within the criminal justice system of elected and appointed judicial employees. That level of disruption often causes people to panic and run a sting op and then throw a 20 year felony at someone. Because, maybe, just maybe he would have found the macro scale trends he guessed were present. They(LEO's) literally watched him plug his laptop into the server room(or probably a portal hub in a closet, actually), using a password someone gave him permission to use. Then, they picked him up later and threatened him with the weight of 1000 books. Oh well. We will never know now. Centralized power or decentralized power often wins.
@@juicythrax8992 Yeah, as if you were the sole judge and arbiter on that matter. Those kinds of things happen on a daily basis. Are you really that clueless or just pretending? Just look at any of MamaMax's videos. The FBI not only allowed a predator to work in the White House back in the Obama days but they've also allowed him to roam freely after his time there even thought there's evidence to suggest he has continued to behave inappropriately. You could also look at UpperEchelon's video about the distribution of ilegal content through Google Drive. Surprisingly, it seems Google is harsher on copyright infringers than on actual criminals. The glowies are surely aware of these things yet they turn a blind eye to them. I wonder why.
@@juicythrax8992 I can give you some just off the top of my head: - speculating on food prices (wheat etc.), leading to countless deaths world wide - big companies like Nesté, Coca Cola, Danone, Pepsi etc. extracting insane amounts of drinking water worldwide by abusing local laws (or lack thereof), bottling and selling it, leaving the local population deprived of their local water source - selling weapons to countries that use them to kill civilians - corporate campaign financing (which is literally corruption), leading to policies that leave a majority of the country worse off and when it comes to healthcare, killing thousands of people every year with inflated prices (insulin for example)
How can people generalize and kind of turn a blind eye to Aaron, I only recently discovered him, and I find it so crazy how little people talk about him, and his ideas Completely revolutionary. The problem is we are all too scared. And people love over complicating things to the point its so hard to speak, oh noble men… Im not saying he should’ve been exempted completely, granted, he knew what he was doing. But 30 years in prison? For sharing academical research papers on a society where allegedly we pay for such information?, Telling his father they are using the case as a deterrent? To his father. I dont like how we speak as if law is made by perfect AI’s, its not, the only difference is the overwhelming difference in power and capital. How many deaths, and absolutely horrible things has the government done, does, and will keep doing while being completely unpunished? Were being punished by scraps, while they keep the world drenched in blood, may you rest in peace Aaron, thank you for instilling a roaring blaze in all of us, you did it; let us weep.
Aaron was an incredibly smart engineer who made a great impact on society. You can even say he may have had some influence in MIT releasing many of their courses for free online. The biggest problem with his story thought, is that MIT had a role in Aaron getting caught. While yes, MIT did not own the company hosting the papers, they were the ones who fully agreed to hide cameras to catch him in the act. I wont go as far to say they had a role in his death, you can blame that one the governmemt for trying to make an example out of him. They did have a role in him being in that situation to begin with, though and that doesnt look so great for a school who prides themselves in free access to public learning. I love what MIT has done for the open source community, but they do have a pretty rough history
That's interesting and true. In practical terms the law is not as rigid as described and it can be bent for special interests that often times aren't compatible with the limitations that a specific law or set of laws determine.
"the victim brought it forward" , but they dropped it and it was the government and only the government that continued pursuing it with overpunishment, their intentions were clear, not just following law
Exactly. From how the case was presented in The Internet's Own Boy, the prosecution actually had to prove he was going to release them instead of do analysis on them.
So why be a police man/woman when they will force you to do something you say you don’t agree with that is against what you believe is right but your just doing your job.
The job of the FBI, I thought, was to uphold the Constitution of the United States. Seems like there was something else too, about protecting the American people from it's enemies. It is a tragedy that he believes that the FBI serves us best by enforcing the laws, even if they are absent just cause or even being moral. We need to do better as a nation, as a people.
1. FBI's job is both uphold the law and keep citizens safe. 2. Aaron has ethical justification for distributing content that author has made publicly available 3. The book company has right to charge money for their service 4. FBI is not judge nor jury. Therefore they must report any activity that is not clearly legal. However this does not mean that they should violate privacy in search of illegal activity if there is no concrete reason for it. 5. Court must judge according to the law 6. If court is unfair or compromised by whatever party the members of the court must be judged themselves. Even court should not be above the law. 7. If the law is unjust or unethical it is the fault of politicians. 8. If the politicians are corrupted it is the fault of the voters. 9. If the voters were lied to it was done so by those in power. 10. If group is powerful enough to sway elections it is the fault of the people that they allowed them to gain such power. 11. If the people allow that it is because they are afraid, indifferent or have something to gain (or hope to gain). What happened to Aaron Swartz was the result of centuries of people being afraid, indifferent or serving themselves in expense of others. This embodies humanity, tragically missing its most humane essence.
This was such a leading question by building up Swartz as a hero and then asking what the guest thinks. Swartz killed himself because he was facing years in prison but didn't even listen to his lawyers that told him that his charges can be reduced and then also appealed, instead he just fkn killed himself over the dumbest thing. He was never going to go to prison for leaking educational documents.
I am 50-50 on the scientific knowledge to placed behind paywalls scientists are investing their time and instituition their money resources If u want a tech to open which is safe and will be immensely helpful for the humanity then yes let it open source U can't argue that every research paper shld be free there are stuff which shld not be open sourced which can cause lifes to be taken if its in the wrong hands
I just thought about Aaron today after 22 years since 9/11 imprisoned the planet. Of course Aaron is a hero. They used him to build the internet then gave him 35 years for sharing MIT files for free. A chomo doesn't even get five. Think about that
This FBI guy really does not come across as special or particularly intelligent compared to the majority of Lex's guests (with the recent exceptions of Ye and Destiny lol)
Not ethical case. Here is 19th Ctry American parallel: Law was to be hanged if you stole a horse. Not due to the monetary value of the horse but due to the knowledge that ability to law enforce and keep people safe is weak and at that time a horse was not only transportation but access to civilization, work, emergency response,... In order to keep foundations of civilized society, draconian measure was needed to as strongly deter quite easy theft of such crucial asset. If you stole a horse to bring your sick child to the doctor, you'd still be hanged... Aaron case is 21st Ctry version. Net' connected computer systems are trivial to break in, patches are constant but technical safety is quite impossible. Yet, they are the foundation on which modern society sits, from banking to production to information sharing. In 21st Ctry we don't hang hackers but we still impose on them severe consequences for the age. Aaron knew that he has no right to enter data closet, yet he did. Aaron knew that he has no right to add anything there, yet he installed a spying computer of his own there. Purpose is irrelevant. What if it was parallel acton of a bank clerk who broke into banking data closet, installed his hardware and stole your money...? Would it matter that he stole it to give for good cause charity? NO! You can give your money to charity, other people do not have right to steal from you for charity, still immoral, still theft, still attack on vulnerable foundation of the modern society.
And then what? The site and everyone on there is too far gone. Same with Twitter really. I know Musk is your God but all he has is money and in SOME cases, money doesn't solve everything. It usually does tho, but you simply cannot fundamentally change how millions or even billions of people think.
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
Full podcast episode: th-cam.com/video/4KiO8GRgwDk/w-d-xo.html
Lex Fridman podcast channel: th-cam.com/users/lexfridman
Guest bio: Chris Tarbell is a former FBI special agent and cybercrime investigation specialist who brought down Ross Ulbricht and Silk Road, and Hector Monsegur (aka Sabu) of LulzSec and Anonymous.
Thank you for mentioning Aaron. He was a young man that truly understood the value of the digital commons and the need to freely share information. He left a huge legacy for us to live up to.
Are you married Arika?
@@CyberAndy_ lmao I’m Romanian. Why do u ask?
Aaron Swartz was a God damn hero. There's no two ways about it, and anyone who contributed in anyway to his demise should rot in hell.
You owe it to him, Aaron Swartz. Perhaps doing multiple episodes on him and his story and his achievements and what it means today.
Please do this asap, thank you.
Aaron Swartz was both a genius and a genuine altruist - a very rare thing. He was extraordinarily productive and, in the opinion of many, one of the finest minds of his generation. This was an incalculable and senseless loss. RIP Aaron. Your memory brings light in the darkest hours and inspires me to do good. Many thanks and condolences to the Swartz family. ❤
Aaron Swartz was writing a blog post about Batman the day before allegedly committing suicide. That doesn't make much sense. Also he rejected the plea bargain so he could fight his case in court. If he didn't have the fortitude of mind to go through with a trial that could cost him years in jail, he would have just taken the plea bargain. And let's not forget he wrote on his blog that the one thing he was worried about was that the secret service would come get him. They sure did. A.S. was trying to expose institutional corruption. Maybe he had something big on some of the shady things allegedly going on at the medialab.
I smell epstein style
You know this was some Epstein shit
ah yes. CP to be specific. :( I am looking for a inconspicouos YT link pertaining to that. JSTOR did not want to file charges anymore and thought it passe but MIT WAS very adamant in pressing charges (as his family and friends stated: they built a case against him by just taking videos of him stealing information, why?) When i found this piece of info I felt for Aaron: he must have been very very terrified for himself and for the people he cared for.
Is there anywhere you know of I read more on this? I recently watched the documentary on him and there was sure some gaps..
We need him more than ever today.
RIP my man. What happened with him was a disgrace.
He was a pioneer. Hero.
I hate the excuse "I wAs jUsT dOiNg mY jOb", as if someone forced you to become a cop
Summary of his answer: Hey I don't care because it's not up to me. My job is to do awful things, it's not my job to decide how awful to be.
Aka- “just following orders”
The Nuremberg Coward Syndrome, another prime example.
lol could you imagine if every FBI agent enforced their own ethics
Dude. I'm so glad you brought this up fridman. This is really really really really imporant.
Bro Aaron was an angel. A real human being. Sadly, SUITS dont like angels.
Should have asked how he feels about DOJ putting Aaron in solitary confinement and left him with enough resources to commit suicide.
jews kill jews some times
He didn’t die in jail
I think you are confusing him with Epstein. Aaron hung himself at home. Do yourself a favor and read about the case before commenting.
I think he created a service to make public court records accessible to the public. This was more dangerous to establishment than academic papers. Gave power to the people my making court proceedings accessible to the people, not restricted
All the “Free” extorted porn out that never goes away and then knowledge is a “paywall“ ?
I get his answer: We have separate legislative, executive, and judiciary powers. If you want to change the law, go to the legislators. Other powers follow those laws - that is how you get a lawful society.
While Aaron Swartz did download a massive amount of academic content from JSTOR, he did not publicly release these documents before his untimely death.
Before the internet, one went to the library to read the free copies of journals. Who paid for the research? That's their payroll, their living. Why was Swartz entitled to take the scientists' published research for free? That's one reason for copyright laws- to protect the income of the authors.
Honestly, he's wrong. You can't really say with certainty he is guilty of any single one of the charges he was facing. Computer hacking? No, he didn't hack any computer or account. He was essentially just downloading things. His "crime" was sharing the files he downloaded. Even then, that's a non-violent crime and as such his punishment shouldn't have been as severe. Maybe he should've just been slapped with a huge fine so MIT could "recoup" the financial losses that would be caused by the free distribution of those papers.
"The role of the FBI is to uphold the law" - That may sound like a solid rebuttal but if you actually think about it you'll realize this means the FBI isn't responsible for protecting US citizens either. If anyone commits a horrendous act but they do so without technically breaking any law or at least not a very important one, then that means they'll get away with it because the FBI won't bother to go after them.
There is a theory, that is quite a bit below actual conspiracy level...that Aaron was going to apply macro scale analysis to many gigabytes of data in order to potentially expose corruption within the criminal justice system of elected and appointed judicial employees.
That level of disruption often causes people to panic and run a sting op and then throw a 20 year felony at someone. Because, maybe, just maybe he would have found the macro scale trends he guessed were present.
They(LEO's) literally watched him plug his laptop into the server room(or probably a portal hub in a closet, actually), using a password someone gave him permission to use. Then, they picked him up later and threatened him with the weight of 1000 books.
Oh well. We will never know now. Centralized power or decentralized power often wins.
ok name a "horrendous act" that would not constitute breaking the law and ill tell you whether law enforcement let alone the FBI needs to step in
@@juicythrax8992 Yeah, as if you were the sole judge and arbiter on that matter. Those kinds of things happen on a daily basis. Are you really that clueless or just pretending? Just look at any of MamaMax's videos. The FBI not only allowed a predator to work in the White House back in the Obama days but they've also allowed him to roam freely after his time there even thought there's evidence to suggest he has continued to behave inappropriately. You could also look at UpperEchelon's video about the distribution of ilegal content through Google Drive. Surprisingly, it seems Google is harsher on copyright infringers than on actual criminals. The glowies are surely aware of these things yet they turn a blind eye to them. I wonder why.
@@juicythrax8992 didn’t the fbi raid people’s offices to get Biden’s daughters diary that was legally held? fbi sus as heck
@@juicythrax8992 I can give you some just off the top of my head:
- speculating on food prices (wheat etc.), leading to countless deaths world wide
- big companies like Nesté, Coca Cola, Danone, Pepsi etc. extracting insane amounts of drinking water worldwide by abusing local laws (or lack thereof), bottling and selling it, leaving the local population deprived of their local water source
- selling weapons to countries that use them to kill civilians
- corporate campaign financing (which is literally corruption), leading to policies that leave a majority of the country worse off and when it comes to healthcare, killing thousands of people every year with inflated prices (insulin for example)
He actually DIDN’T release any publications that he downloaded. He just downloaded them, which is a very important factor in this case
How can people generalize and kind of turn a blind eye to Aaron, I only recently discovered him, and I find it so crazy how little people talk about him, and his ideas
Completely revolutionary. The problem is we are all too scared. And people love over complicating things to the point its so hard to speak, oh noble men…
Im not saying he should’ve been exempted completely, granted, he knew what he was doing. But 30 years in prison? For sharing academical research papers on a society where allegedly we pay for such information?, Telling his father they are using the case as a deterrent? To his father.
I dont like how we speak as if law is made by perfect AI’s, its not, the only difference is the overwhelming difference in power and capital. How many deaths, and absolutely horrible things has the government done, does, and will keep doing while being completely unpunished?
Were being punished by scraps, while they keep the world drenched in blood, may you rest in peace Aaron, thank you for instilling a roaring blaze in all of us, you did it; let us weep.
Aaron was an incredibly smart engineer who made a great impact on society. You can even say he may have had some influence in MIT releasing many of their courses for free online.
The biggest problem with his story thought, is that MIT had a role in Aaron getting caught. While yes, MIT did not own the company hosting the papers, they were the ones who fully agreed to hide cameras to catch him in the act.
I wont go as far to say they had a role in his death, you can blame that one the governmemt for trying to make an example out of him. They did have a role in him being in that situation to begin with, though and that doesnt look so great for a school who prides themselves in free access to public learning.
I love what MIT has done for the open source community, but they do have a pretty rough history
Aaron Swartz L
Aaron Swartz did not break a single law.
Sadly he did when he accessed the MIT database secretly
People like him led Schwartz to take his life. His answer was terrible.
So basically he was "just following orders". It's that kind of attitude that allows evil to exist. He should at least express shame and regret
selective enforcement is on the prosecutors side not law enforcement
That's interesting and true. In practical terms the law is not as rigid as described and it can be bent for special interests that often times aren't compatible with the limitations that a specific law or set of laws determine.
Lex, you are a real one for bringing this up. Very weak answer.
Important topic.......horrible, horrible story. Mistreated genius is such a huge fuck up for hummanity.
"the victim brought it forward" , but they dropped it and it was the government and only the government that continued pursuing it with overpunishment, their intentions were clear, not just following law
Um…he never released those papers
Exactly. From how the case was presented in The Internet's Own Boy, the prosecution actually had to prove he was going to release them instead of do analysis on them.
So why be a police man/woman when they will force you to do something you say you don’t agree with that is against what you believe is right but your just doing your job.
Education is for the rich it’s simple
The job of the FBI, I thought, was to uphold the Constitution of the United States. Seems like there was something else too, about protecting the American people from it's enemies. It is a tragedy that he believes that the FBI serves us best by enforcing the laws, even if they are absent just cause or even being moral. We need to do better as a nation, as a people.
Terrible answer. He really didn’t answer 🙄
Rip Aaron swartz
Not all hero's wear capes 👏
1. FBI's job is both uphold the law and keep citizens safe.
2. Aaron has ethical justification for distributing content that author has made publicly available
3. The book company has right to charge money for their service
4. FBI is not judge nor jury. Therefore they must report any activity that is not clearly legal. However this does not mean that they should violate privacy in search of illegal activity if there is no concrete reason for it.
5. Court must judge according to the law
6. If court is unfair or compromised by whatever party the members of the court must be judged themselves. Even court should not be above the law.
7. If the law is unjust or unethical it is the fault of politicians.
8. If the politicians are corrupted it is the fault of the voters.
9. If the voters were lied to it was done so by those in power.
10. If group is powerful enough to sway elections it is the fault of the people that they allowed them to gain such power.
11. If the people allow that it is because they are afraid, indifferent or have something to gain (or hope to gain).
What happened to Aaron Swartz was the result of centuries of people being afraid, indifferent or serving themselves in expense of others. This embodies humanity, tragically missing its most humane essence.
The open source community
Will always remember what he fought for
Tim Dillon 2024
This was such a leading question by building up Swartz as a hero and then asking what the guest thinks. Swartz killed himself because he was facing years in prison but didn't even listen to his lawyers that told him that his charges can be reduced and then also appealed, instead he just fkn killed himself over the dumbest thing. He was never going to go to prison for leaking educational documents.
I am 50-50 on the scientific knowledge to placed behind paywalls
scientists are investing their time and instituition their money resources
If u want a tech to open which is safe and will be immensely helpful for the humanity then yes let it open source
U can't argue that every research paper shld be free
there are stuff which shld not be open sourced which can cause lifes to be taken if its in the wrong hands
I just thought about Aaron today after 22 years since 9/11 imprisoned the planet. Of course Aaron is a hero. They used him to build the internet then gave him 35 years for sharing MIT files for free. A chomo doesn't even get five. Think about that
This FBI guy really does not come across as special or particularly intelligent compared to the majority of Lex's guests (with the recent exceptions of Ye and Destiny lol)
Well he’s an FBI agent and not a PhD in a field.
@@TCH534 'Intellectuals' don't have a monopoly on insight.
@@JJandoONER heres another comment for u to disagree with
Yeah his response was basically "we just did our jobs". As if Lex and we, the viewers, didn't know that yet...
How can you talk about Swartz and not mention the word 'genius' or 'prodigy'.
What did Lex say on Twitter I can’t see it he blocked me for no reason
he said the holocaust didn't happen
Not ethical case. Here is 19th Ctry American parallel: Law was to be hanged if you stole a horse. Not due to the monetary value of the horse but due to the knowledge that ability to law enforce and keep people safe is weak and at that time a horse was not only transportation but access to civilization, work, emergency response,... In order to keep foundations of civilized society, draconian measure was needed to as strongly deter quite easy theft of such crucial asset. If you stole a horse to bring your sick child to the doctor, you'd still be hanged... Aaron case is 21st Ctry version. Net' connected computer systems are trivial to break in, patches are constant but technical safety is quite impossible. Yet, they are the foundation on which modern society sits, from banking to production to information sharing. In 21st Ctry we don't hang hackers but we still impose on them severe consequences for the age. Aaron knew that he has no right to enter data closet, yet he did. Aaron knew that he has no right to add anything there, yet he installed a spying computer of his own there. Purpose is irrelevant. What if it was parallel acton of a bank clerk who broke into banking data closet, installed his hardware and stole your money...? Would it matter that he stole it to give for good cause charity? NO! You can give your money to charity, other people do not have right to steal from you for charity, still immoral, still theft, still attack on vulnerable foundation of the modern society.
It seems like you are saying that what he did was unethical because it was illegal
But what he "stole" was created and given away to all already by the researchers
Aaron❤✊✊
'committed suicide'
I hope elon buys reddit.
And then what? The site and everyone on there is too far gone. Same with Twitter really. I know Musk is your God but all he has is money and in SOME cases, money doesn't solve everything. It usually does tho, but you simply cannot fundamentally change how millions or even billions of people think.
GOAM
First
❤
Aaron was suicided ..... Change my mind
Why he got 50 years? It makes sense he’d kill himself
hmmm su,icide...nope he got rubbed out