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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
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Sometimes, the underlying mechanics of a game can be confusing and difficult to learn. I know it's just a game, but if you love it and want the extra edge, I present to you the basic knowledge of damage calculation, an unseen but deadly weapon for your journey in the lands between.
The next video will be on the TRUTH about softcaps, and is a VERY IMPORTANT video. Don't miss it! It will change your entire theorycrafting and build optimization experience.
As usual, if you got any questions or suggestions, feel free to leave a comment below. there are SUBTITLES in english if it helps!
If you're interested on what the best catalyst at each given level of investment, here are the in-depth explanations:
Glintstone Staff: • The REAL Best Glintsto...
Sacred Seals: • The Best Sacred Seals ...
0:00 Intro
0:59 Armor and Negation
3:55 Leveling, Stats, and Defense
6:41 Level 125/Level 150 additional stats
7:21 (IMPORTANT) How Negation and Defense ties together
8:10 (IMPORTANT) Split Scaling and Takeaways
The build planner I used because I think it fits the screen best (no weapon AR): eip.gg/elden-ring/build-planner/
The cute blue avatar I'm using is called Bugcat Capoo! The artist's name is Yara: / capoocat
Ok, I know the ds3 vets/math dudes are going to take a dump on me right now calling defense flat damage reduction! If you took a look carefully at the DS3 defense you will see that defense applies at breakpoints and is not a literal flat def reduction (In fact, it applies before damage negation)! This video is a simplification so the average joe gets a sense of what is going on. The takeaway here is the actual defense formula is more effective the lower the enemy's attack rating is like how a flat damage reduction works. Split scaling weapons suffers harder from this.
Example:
200 damage * 0.7 = 140 => 140 - 50 = 90
100 damage * 0.7 = 70 => 70 - 50 = 20
I'm dropping a link here to DS3's defense formula if you want a very detailed read: darksouls3.wikidot.com/combat-game-mechanics
Oh! And Fire negation should be increased by 19% while lightning negation should be reduced by 21% Accidentally got them backwards (i.e think armor. Negation should be smaller than the sum of its parts when it comes to reducing incoming damage. It's the opposite for increasing damage taken).
People pointing out defense being a % based reduction rather than flat damage reduction are not 'taking a dump' on you in any way, it's just a correction. Defense worked this way since DS1, probably DeS even (not counting DS2, the only game in series to actually feature flat physical defense). IMO inaccuracies in terminology like this one should be pointed out, otherwise we'll end up with another 'hyper-armor' that isn't even hyper-armor.
I've made a discovery that pertains to my build, and I thought I'd share it here.
If Elden Ring uses DS3's defense formula, then Split Damage isn't as bad as you'd think, but still kinda bad in most situations. Here's why and an example:
Executioner's Greataxe is a primarily Strength based weapon. With the Hero Starting Class, you'd normally put 80 Strength and use a Heavy Infusion, and two-handing the weapon would give you 798 AR. Using Flame, Grant Me Strength + Golden Vow would boost that number to 986.5275
Here's where the Defense Formula comes in.
- If DEF >8x ATK, deal damage equal to 0.10 * ATK
- If DEF >ATK, deal damage equal to (19.2/49 * (ATK/DEF-0.125)^ 2 +0.1) * ATK
- If DEF >0.4x ATK, deal damage equal to (-0.4/3 * (ATK/DEF-2.5)^ 2 +0.7) * ATK
- If DEF >0.125x ATK, deal damage equal to (-0.8/121 * (ATK/DEF-8)^ 2 +0.9) * ATK
- If DEF
Thank you for the strict example.I also used this formula in DS3. However, it was calculated by multiplying first.
in the elden ring I try small goelm in the Underground Roadside.
I used Grafted Blade Greatsword
1H Multilyer : R1 (100) / R2 (125) / CR2 (165)
DMG : 604 (100) / 767 (126.98) / 1014 (167.88)
2H Multilyer : R1 (114 → 100) / R2 (141 → 123.68) / CR2 (180 → 157.89)
DMG : 775 (100) / 958 (123.61) / 1223 (157.80)
I meanning multiplyer first, not defense first.
Question because either I am blind or you don't mention this, but why do you multiply the number at the end with the MV rather than using the MV first and foremost as the ATK rating? Since motion value is tied to attacks, shouldn't the attack hit with the motion value being used, then get through flat defense and then absorption instead? I did a lot of calculation in the Monster Hunter series and this is at least how they always calculated damage, MV came before everything else because it is tied to the animation, whether you hit it or not, the damage is already in the attack before it strikes the target.
Edit: I just saw someone else pointed this out, I am an idiot. Still keeping this here to sorta fill this out, I guess.
Good job for using the math and stuff, i'm still gonna use what I think is/looks cool tho :D
try finger
but hole
Good to know how the defense works. Everyone always says split damage is worse but never says why.
These are the most underrated videos on Elden Ring. Chrightt gives you exactly what you need to know, stats and facts, two things you can’t bias with opinion. This kid is smart guys. Follow him.
I have been waiting for a true science person to break down these stats for a while. Glad to see you rise to the occasion.
Thank you, this is the only useful source I have found while searching for info on split damage scaling!
Great to hear! The next video will also be very useful for split scaling because it goes over the real softcaps (the often passed around softcap cheat sheet is wrong and misleading). I will be explaining in-depth.
@@Chrightt I will take a look at that one as well! This kind of video helps so much more than the average "You won't believe how broken overpowered this weapon is" video that keep filling my youtube home feed 😂
I just watched 3 videos that didn’t answer my question prior to finding this one. This is exactly what I was looking for.
THANK YOU!
Never understood the stats and just played the game but this explained it perfectly. Gives me a greater understanding of negation works. I've been running the sorseals too but now that I know I'll switch them out when reaching an appropriate level. Thanks!
It's rarely worth running a soreseal tbh doubt 20 stat points are worth 20% increased damage taken
@@Keln02 it's 15% extra damage without any armor, it allows you to get heavier armor, 5 of those levels are in HP, and it increases your Defense with those 20 levels. Outside of PVP the downside can also be completely negated with the +1 dragon shield talisman or better. On yop of that, your physical attacks will be much stronger thanks to the extra str and dex. Depending on build, it can be pretty nice to have in pve.
@@vyor8837They also make armor increases more effective, so they're not entirely bad if you have enough buffs (I run lightning scorpion charm, if I remove it the difference is 4% armor lol). I still never use them once I have the stats for my gear, only for early game memes.
apparently the dark souls math dudes have finished it, plus 20 stats is a better trade off (if you need to put the 20 stats into something else) in almost all cases
@@christinemorgan5379 scarseal is 10%, sore is 15%. Google it
I have been waiting for this video!!! These stats finally make sense thank you!!
This video is amazing, keep up the great work!
Really good explanation!!!
Thank you, your videos are fantastic.
this was incredible informative thank you so much, ima look through your catalog of old videos wile I wait for the next to see what els I can learn.
Awesome, thank you!
Very helpful, thx!
Hands down best videos on elden ring stats on TH-cam. Thank you!
Quality content, I've been subscribed since the 200s, I'm hoping to see your channel explode with subscribers soon.
I hope so too! Thanks!
@@Chrightt my dude, you went from 200 to 3k+ in a week. Congrats, here's to 10K.
thank you for explaining this
Love your videos.
Great video! Too many of these guides don't go into any depth. Thanks
This video needs more attention, its amazing.
Helpful. Thanks. I really like this game because a person like me, with average dodging, timing, figuring move sets, I just decided on a tank build pretty early. I kept leveling up offensive stats and here I am a beast offensively, and I couldn’t figure out why I am one shot in Farum Azula with lightning. This and other videos helped. The tankiest armor doesn’t…really…save me. Seeing the big jumps in levels at certain points helped, I will invest wisely. Damage negation is the tough one for me. I have to depend on incantations and phyzic, I’ll figure it out. The journey is fun. It takes my mind off work and other stress lol.
Thanks!
I love your videos
This explains why when I go back to Limgrave late in the game and an enemy hits me they do almost no damage even if I do not have much armor. This is possibly also why people complain that end game enemies do too much damage. We do not know what level FromSoft expected you to be at end game. If they thought level 250, and everyone is level 125, then that partly explains why the damage seems too high. Also, I can see why a high vigor strength build can be strong in PvP, since you are getting extra defense. It might not seem like much on paper, but sometimes you take barely any damage due to the higher physical defense.
... or it's just a souls game and it is supposed to be hard
@@yeetgrenade7492 Do you just randomly cut and paste that reply to lots of souls game comments? It doesn't even match what my comment is about.
Only video that explains flat defense thank you
When it comes to "split-damage", damage that covers two different types on a weapon, the best course is to know what your enemies have less resistance against to capitalize on the extra damage value. For example, the miners seem particularly susceptible to Magic damage while being highly resistant to physical damage. So splitting between physical and magical can be more effective against them. But in most scenarios, a flat amount of a high damage in one type (usually physical) is the best course, because then you're not contending with multiple resistances. And as pointed out at the end of this vid, Fire damage is often less effective because a lot more enemies and players have resistance to it, while Lightning is far more rare. That's why I rush for Lightning Strike in the Altus Plateau over Flame Strike in Caelid.
This is key some bosses have low elemental resistance slapping on flame art or lightning can make a huge difference especially stacking with other talismans/physick
@@MH-ut1rc I have a level 100 build that is entirely built around the idea of being able to swap out weapons and therefore damage and status types at a moment's notice. Just so I can try out an abundance of different things to see how effective they are. So far Mogh has been my only major obstacle, and it's mostly because the ai for your summons is bugged during that fight AND he still regains his health even if you prevent the damage from his blood ritual, which is just BS XD
@@Gakusangi anything that bleeds I just stick with that lol
@@MH-ut1rc Bleed is a bit OP in this game, that's for sure XD
Great video. very well explained!
Hey so I have a question and I'll give it in a specific situation so the answer can be more specific. (can't remember the exact stats but I'll get them close enough for the example)
On my arcane faith build, with a slender sword, with the occult affinity my AR is around 450 physical dmg. with flame art affinity I'm up over 500ar.
Is the loss of roughly 50ar worth it to be doing pure physical damage instead of split flame and physical? I know split is worth less real damage overall depending on the enemies defense, but how much less on average?
at what point is it worth it to go for split instead of physical?
thank you so much for these videos
Depends on the level because higher level opponent = more defense, so this is hard for me to say. It also depends on the elemental defense of the enemy. Let me give an example, players usually have higher fire defense than lightning defense (as you can see from the video). At level 125~150 even when a lightning weapon has only 45~60 higher AR it will be doing more damage than the pure physical version (still dependent on the individual of course). On the other hand, since fire defense is higher, you will need around 80~100 AR to be worth it.
Just a rough estimate.
@@Chrightt thanks for the response!
Note, of course, that such advice only really applies to pvp and not pve. Mostly because of elemental weaknesses.
Great video! This level of sweat is appreciated very much, very informative you deserve more views for sure.
Glad it was helpful!
It's still hard to understand but I still liked and subscribed
I'd be curious to know if the Fire vs Heavy infusion example in the takeaway comes to the same conclusion if you factor in split buffs like Flame Grant Me Strength.
Yes, even with Flame Grant me Strength included, split scaling still has the same issue. People seem to not realize that Flame grant me strength buffs the entirety of Fire infusion by 20% the same time it buffs Heavy infusion by 20% (since the whole heavy infusion is physical, all of it is buffed by flame grant me strength).
After watching this video I stopped using cold scaling and switched to heavy. I didn't realize just how much damage I was sacrificing to get the status effect.
I’m trying to stack as much absorption without using heavy armor. (Ritual shield talisman, defense physick, etc). Does absorption have diminishing returns? I feel like there’s some sort of limit to how high your absorption can get.
This is an absolutely fantastic video! My dumb ass was able to understand it flawlessly. You did well to explain everything and you did it simple as well. I will reference this video to all my Elden Ring friends who don't understand. We were all just going, "Unga bunga higher numbers better so just get high numbers for defense!" but it sure is nice to know what is actually happening with those stats now. Thank you so much for taking time out of your life to make this!!!
I just do want to point out one thing, split scaling on damage depends sure the single scaling stats will usually be better but if an enemy has a type weakness split scaling can really shine. It won't be small meager numbers either like 20 to 50 points more damage no. It will be by a few hundred or several thousand which in souls games can be the difference between *ENEMY/GREAT ENEMY FELLED* and *YOU DIED* . If you take the Deathbirds or Death Rite Birds for example they are extremely weak to holy damage while having high physical resistance. So if you take a maxed out single scaling weapon vs something like the Golden Halberd which does physical and holy damage, the Golden Halberd will out damage the single scaled weapon. This is the case with other enemies as well where the split scaling weapon will perform better based upon the damage type the enemy is weak to.
This is why its very important to carry various weapons with different damage types instead of running around with the biggest metal stick or the sharpest sword.
Definitely! This is of course only considering the average case where the player wants to use 1 weapon rather than continuously switching elements. Also as a side note, pure physical scaling weapons allow for buffs to do this instead of having to switch across multiple split scaling weapons.
@@Chrightt a point well made the various grease items can add that other element temporarily thus giving you a pseudo split scaling weapon for a few moments. I just dislike relying on limited consumables so for me various weapons that have it naturally are more appealing to me. But thats just me personally.
I love that little cat thing as your pfp
Is the lighting affinity always better then keen?
I think you explained everything pretty well but I still have a basic question regarding the damage that is shown when hovering over a weapon. Base damage + scaling points. But for what kind of attack is that? One handed light attack? Two handed heavy attack? Or maybe something inbetween?
The Attack Rating number doesn't apply specifically to any one attack; what happens is the game takes your attack rating, multiplies it by a "motion value" (aka a unique number based on the type of attack you're doing), and that becomes the damage of your attack.
For example, if your AR is 100 and you do an R1, if the motion value is 1 then you'll output 100 damage. The motion value varies depending on the weapon and attack, which is why you'll see things like greatweapons seemingly having the same AR as smaller ones but doing vastly more damage per attack, or the unique ability of daggers to always get stronger critical hits despite having the same critical rating as a rapier with lower AR.
Generally speaking the motion value increases for every hit in an R1 combo, and is the highest for a fully charged R2.
@@Double512 Thank you that helped a lot!!
If i watch all of your videos a few more times things might make a little sense, thanks of the amazing work on all of this I'm working towards my associates in Chrightt school of Elden Ring
Now I know why multi hit attacks and spells are weaker at low levels when you're relying on base damage over scaling because each one hits a a flat defense correct?
Sorry if this was covered in the video or a link and I missed it, but - - which is applied first? Absorption or defense?
In the actual formula, defense actually goes before absorption. The example I gave in my video is the simplified version that seems to say defense goes after absorption (in order for me to explain it as a flat damage reduction). The real defense formula acts like a flat damage reduction but is very complicated. Not sure why they wanted to make it that way, but you can check out the DS3 defense calc link if you're interested in the deep dive.
The short story is just think more instances of damage = weaker per hit because every hit has a flat damage reduction. i.e. a spell dealing 500 damage will always out damage the same spell doing 250 + 250 instead of 500.
Still boggles my mind how you guys are able to work out these things.
The explanation of both damage negation and damage scaling and how they are connected is perfect. Walking away from this video with alot more knowledge on the topic. Thank you chrightt for being the elden ring educator we all need
Thanks for finally helping me understand who split damage is worse, especially at higher levels. I’m curious at roughly what level it becomes worse?
Honestly in elden ring it feels way stronger than previous games. Especially with the removal of "raw" infusions for pure casters. So far with my pure strength greatsword user, every boss I've faced has taken more damage from fire infusion than from heavy infusion.
@@Bourikii2992 wht level were you when u fought them. That’s the real question
thank you very much for this sir!
According to dark soul 3 defense is not flat damage reduction。it is a curve decided by the attack power/defence ratio, the attack power is the base attack without buff, debuff or any +percentage passive effect。when attack power / defense >=8 deal 90% damage, when
I don't play PvP -- but I am building a character to that meta to play PvE because self-imposed rulesets are fun to me. In looking around -- I've seen varying numbers on PvP meta level (125-170). Is there a codified number now? Are there different 'weight classes' within that range? Is that range wrong?
The thing about Fire infusion specifically, is that you get to double up on the buff Flame, Grant me Strength. Since damage increasing effects are also multiplicative, having the fire scorpion ring and the flask that buffs fire damage put your fire damage alone almost on par with the heavy version of a weapon. Then the physical damage is also boosted by 20%, bringing it that much closer. With a spell that buffs fire and physical damage by 20% each, fire infusions are some of the strongest when built for this, rivaling similar lightning builds with a scorpion ring and a lightning flask. Obviously this gets turned on its head by rain, but that's a different issue.
Yes, you can do this, but it's specifically orienting yourself around fire damage when the player can use: 1x talisman, 1x physic charge to do something else without scorpion charm making them take more damage. I'm not saying fire is bad, it just gets worse as you fight higher level players or progress to new NG+s.
Keep in mind, flame grant me strength boosts Heavy in its entirety by 20% as well. It boosts physical and fire, meaning it boosts the entirety of both physical builds or fire builds.
@@Chrightt I'm currently doing a new game playthrough with Nightriders glaive and I stopped leveling at RL 120 with 50 strength, I've alternated between heavy and fire throughout the game and I just entered Mountaintops of the Giants, so far other than the Volcano manor where a lot of the enemies are immune to fire, even without any buffs I always do more damage with the fire infusion. So for pve at lower strength fire is generally better imo.
Great guide. You mentioned the Fire scaling and that it doesn't do as much damage due to having to go through two defenses. I would've loved more explanation because you forgot 2 different things:
1. Fire, Grant Me Strength - This incantation increases both physical and fire damage by 20% and usually is a must for anyone using fire. Bad thing is its' only 30 seconds.
2. Oil pots - Oil pots increase fire damage and they are the ONLY pot in the game that you can use to debuff an enemy to make them weaker to an element.
3. Fire infusions scale with STR now - You gain FIRE and PHYSICAL with a STR. A lot of other infusions need different stats. Lightning infusions go up with DEX. Holy goes up with FTH and so on.
4. Flask buffs - You can increase Fire with the flasks in the game. There is no physical 20% increase either and 10 STR from the mixture isn't going to be as strong is 20%.
Effectively this means a fire infusion isn't weak just because it goes through two flat defenses. It will still most likely deal more depending on the situation, because there are enemies weak to fire and even against players the oil pot works and the incantation still increases your damage by a big amount and isn't nerfed in PvP unlike a talisman.
If you want to go beyond 120+ levels it seems like for STR you don't have to pick because you can always just swap whenever you feel like it. I would also like to mention Kukris and Fire Bombs scale with STR too. :)
Question. Do enemies in PvE have these flat defences like the PC? If not then that would mean split scaling CAN be stronger than single scaling for singleplayer as long as the AR gained is higher than the negations, right?
For example, Godrick has 0 physical negation and 20 magic negation. Would a magic infusion be stronger if it had at least 25% extra AR over a pure physical weapon?
All enemies have flat physical defense. In fact, even in the first playthrough, all enemies have AT LEAST 100 defense in all defensive attributes. Split scaling can still be stronger though, it's just something to take into account. In terms of early game, split scaling is definitely stronger though.
Elden Ring is my first souls game. I picked bandit because I believed Arcane to a Magic Wielding stat lol. Also, despite wanting to be a heavy tank boi, I put points into dexterity believing it to be the flat DPS stat like it is in other games. So I had close strength/dex. I did this till I hit 100+ or so. Then a friend explained to me how stats actually work lol so then I dropped points from dex into faith so I could use all the options with that. What a journey
since when does defense reduces incoming damage by a flat number? defense only functions as a guide to which damage calculations will be used for the received attack that negation will afterwards act upon. Damage mitigation is a functional NEGATION(DEFENSE(ATTACK)) that only uses percentages through and through.
I really appreciate your empirical approach to the game. I am still going to use suboptimal builds because they are fun/look cool and I am trash at the game anyway
Well, I go for cool when farming or exploring, don’t care what I look like in boss fights lol.
Some weapons seem like they may get a similar if not slightly better ar on occult then quality at high stat investment, scaling on occult is pretty decent and it's also worth noting that you actually have a higher base damage on occult then on quality so your looking at a larger raw number to multiply as well. For example (at least according to the wiki) the occult infusion on the brick hammer has a B in strength and a A in arc, that is supposedly flatly better than quality wich has lower raw and scales at B strength and B dex. Both scale off of 2 stats into 1 damage type but the occult is just seemingly superior over quality if you are looking purely at maxing out damage in higher levels. Like am I crazy or on to something here.
Yeah, its because stat requirements are also taken into account. My reply on your brick hammer post for example: The brick hammer doesn't really favor occult infusion because you have to remember to take into account stat requirements. You will have 31 strength that doesn't scale, so you should be comparing investment levels (i.e. 80 strength vs something like 30 strength and 60 arcane, not 80 strength vs 80 arcane because they take that into account. If you do this, you will see why occult is typically a bad option if the weapon doesn't have base status effects).
@@Chrightt it still gets a b in strength, probably lower than strength on quality but in the context of ng+ I'm not certain, don't really have any builds with the levels to compare ar between the 2, heavy is clearly the most practical of course, I'm more curious about what this says about the variation within scaling tiers. Also thx for the reply.
So if defense from armor is multiplicitive, and the result is a percentage reduction in damage taken, doesn't that mean it's more advantageous to use one high stat piece of armor, over two average pieces? Example: lets say I have 2 pieces of armor with 10 negation each. I would take 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.81 converted to percent damage. Now if I had 2 armor pieces with 1 and 19 negation respectively, then I would take 0.99 x 0.81 = 0.8019 converted to percent. Between 2 pieces of armor I have 20 points of negation, but the uneven distribution receives a more favorable result. Is that correct? If it is it's going to raise hell on fashion...
Another thing to keep in mind about split damage however is the abundance of buffs available for elemental damage. Mainly the cracked tears, scorpion charms and some spells.
These are even more effective on builds that scale heavier to the elemental damage on a weapon than the physical. Though these buffs are FAR weaker in PVP.
The fire infusion for example can take advantage of Flame, Grant me Strength which buffs both fire and physical damage by 20% *each* on the weapon, and AoWs that further increase the fire damage like Flaming Strike increase the amount of damage increased by these buffs.
This game really should have had a physical cracked tear, however it only buffs by 10% and prevent stacking the damage tears.
So is the Soreseal viable in PVE? And if you have multiple talismans equipped that increase damage taken do those stack? Personally Im level 114 with 45 Vigor.
Next video is on Talisman.
I hope you can answer me this. If I choose lightning affinity then split damage requires two flat damage reductions. But if I choose Keen affinity and then apply lightning grease, or lightning incantation of the weapon, will the same problem happen?
yes
So if I understand this correctly, for lategame pvp, the best ways to do melee weapon damage are either pure physical damage types, or lightning? Which would mean running builds based off of INT/FTH/ARC without taking advantage of spells, status effects, or fancy weapon arts, is just a straight up waste? Though skill tends to more than make up for numbers, at least outside of extreme situations, I suspect.
I'm also assuming this is all mostly moot in PVE since most enemies aren't resistant to stuff without some sort of visual sign of it (like fire-resistant things being fiery themselves) so you can pretty safely run a split damage weapon lategame and be okay for that. Right?
It's not saying pure physical damage is the best (more like 1 single concentrated attribute > 2 attributes). Lightning definitely is better than any other though. For example, sorceries are mostly just magic damage and still work just fine. If you do run arcane without any status buildup, you're definitely not taking full advantage of arcane (i.e. I don't recommend occult on any weapon without innate status buildup).
@@Chrightt Gotcha, thanks for the response!
What is that calculation you're using at 1:57? The 100*(1-.187).
Negation reduction. Veteran's armor reduces physical (default) damage by 18.7% so you only take 1-0.187 = 81.3% of the damage instead.
I know you don't recommend using the soreseals but how about the scorpion charms?
Scorpion charms can be used even until endgame (I only said make sure to consider the damage negation). The reason is soreseals give you a flat 20 stat, which becomes less and less valuable due to having more stats and soft caps making the stats worse. Scorpion charms, on the other hand, just give you a damage boost. If you're running predominantly one type of spell, scorpion charms can help boost your damage! The other thing is soreseals reduces ALL damage negation while scorpion charms only affect physical damage negation. Dragoncrest greatshield is an excellent piece to off-set this issue (but there isn't one as powerful for the spell side). Furthermore, heavier armor sets tend to have more physical than magical negation, so scorpion charms are perfectly fine.
@@Chrightt awesome! I didn’t want to lose the dmg boost from the magic scorpion charm but throwing on heavier armor and eating crab essentially negates the debuff.
How does damage work on enemies?
Is the defence formula the exact one used in ER? If so, itd explain percentage absorption being better in this game.
It isn't the exact same but with similar numbers iirc.
@@Chrightt i see. Hope it gets discovered soon. We noticed in our very rough testing that percentage reduction works very differently from the dks3 counter part. For example, 15% in ER could mean taking over more damage (obviously we were using giant hunt as a test baseline so the number will be more inflated), yet in dark souls 3 were probably talking like 5 more damage. Glad to see that armour/tank build feels more menacing, though it does make smaller weapons feel extremely stunted at times.
i dunno about the sore seal. for my build thats 20 levels im missing out on, and i can always put the defensive talisman to offset it
It depends on your level of course, but it's actually not 20 levels! First, you should consider the alternative. Instead of putting a soreseal, you can get a +5 talisman (so you're actually trading 15% damage taken on ALL types for 15 stat points). The physical talisman gives you 20% physical reduction in PVE (5% in PVP). Even if we "average" this out, it isn't enough to offset 15% damage reduction in all negation. Furthermore, if you check out my softcap video, stats get increasingly weaker per level.
I suggest not using the soreseal after level 125 because imho, there are better things you can slot into to make your overall character stronger.
@@Chrightt i mean for a lvl 150 prisoner it fits perfectly because you go from str 11 to 16 which u need for a lot of weapons. Ur stressed for stats as is splitting dex and int. Giving u 15 in vigor (more hp) dex (needed) and endurance (which lets u equip heavier armor).
@@DareToWonder The numbers just dont work out. Youre better off having slightly lower health and doing slightly less damage than using soreseal in most cases.
I'm curious about the split damage for PVE; do PVE enemies have flat defence reductions in the same way that player characters have flat defences as well? I'm asking cuz I can't find any info about enemy flat defences on the wiki, so I'm wondering if it exists.
so I know this was using PvP for ease of numbers, but how much do enemies "level"?
Do later game enemies (and NG+) enemies make split damage worse as well?
Absolutely. PVE enemies also level up as you progress from NG to NG+7 (anything beyond 7 will use the numbers from 7).
@@Chrightt RIP my split stuff... Thanks much for the info!
Didn't understood a very important thing, in which order are calculated the resistance of armour pieces??? Cause seems that the first piece has a much larger impact on the total damage reduction than the last one...
If that's true a really heavy armour whith ligth glowes defend better than a ligth armour whit heavy gloves. also if the total sum of resistance is the same.....
Am I missing something???
May be a bit late, but for any wandering soul wishing to learn...
Defense is rather -stagnant- on PvE enemies, which means in the long term, Split Damage will be worse early game, but be better late-game, depending on resistances obviously.
If you choose fire for excample, which most NPC's and bosses seem to be weak to, slap it onto a str scaling weapon, at 40+ Str, you will start to outperform pure weapontypes throughout the game. In PvE only, mind you!
Fire is the worst element to choose in PvP due to Vigors behaviour, as the Video already showed.
Dex-Lightning however makes for excellent invasion material.
does anyone know roughly what the flat defense stats of endgame enemies/bosses are?
PVE enemy stats in my discord resources.
so the negation in the defense section is a percentage reduction? ie if my negation is 25, that means the damage is reduced by 25%, not that the damage is reduced by 25 raw points?
Yes
@@Chrightt thanks for the reply! got it. so the soreseals are really quite detrimental then, as you say. disappointing
this goes for PVE too? so i shoudnt fire infuse my collosal weapons since i will be doing split damage to bosses and potentially doing worse damange to them ? so lets say the maliketh's black blade has a AR of 1000 which is more thant a heavy greatsword but the greatsword will still do more damage cause it only has to go throught only one type of damage negation? is that right ? am i dumb ( at 80 STRETNGH and 80 faith btw)
This applies to PVE enemies too. At endgame with higher strength/dex, you'll almost always do better with Heavy/Keen over Fire/Lightning (unless the enemies happen to be particularly weak to the element).
@@Chrightt dude thank you so much for the reply
*Laughs in PDef talisma x Golden vow x Black flame face tanking Malenia NG+*
Any chace you can explore flame grant me strength and if i combined it can outperform pure damage?
Flame grant me strength allows you to favor split-scaling weapons *slightly*.
Let's say a heavy weapon has 700 AR. 700 * 1.2 = 840
A split-scaling weapon has 400 + 400 => 480 + 480 = 960
It pushes your AR higher so defense would matter less, but not by a huge amount because you have to remember, the entire Heavy weapon also gets the 1.2x bonus from just the physical attack.
@@Chrightt Then you have to keep in mind that you can buff all fire passively with a ring, while physical you can't. You can also get another 20% fire with a flask, but still no physical counterpart. If built properly I think the fire infusion can outscale pure physical even at 150.
@@Chrightt currently running a dex faith build with magma blade, flame grant me strength and golden vow get me 900 ar lvl 157
Is it true that all enemies (including bosses) have 100 defense in every stat? I heard that the only way in which enemies differ, defensively, is in terms of negation.
This is not true, but all enemies have AT LEAST 100 points of defense. The bigger difference is definitely in the negation though.
For those coming here trying to figure out if you should use split damage in meta pvp levels 125 to 150 the answer to that is it depends on the weapon, if it's fire, lightning, magic, or holy, and the environment. Also I won't be using numbers but through testing this is the conclusion I have come to.
Let's start with fire and sacred flame, in general without buffs these are bad infusion to go with. Players at this rune level tend to have the most fire resistance and defense out of all the elemental damage types. The only way you will be doing more damage is by stacking a bunch of buffs on top of flame grant me strength. However you can also suffer -10% damage if it's raining or the enemy is in water so your damage can end up iffy when the buffs run out and ok while they are active. Only go this route if you are a STR/FTH caster with a lot of fire spells using a somber weapon that has fire split damage.
Now For lightning this is actually a decent option even at 80 dex. You will be doing slightly less damage or about even damage compared to keen with a lightning shrouded tear but the main point of lightning damage is your weapon arts will deal more damage even without buffs compared to keen. Additionally if it's raining or you're fighting in water you deal 10% more damage making this often better than keen especially with buffs.
The magic and cold infusions are pretty good. You want to use magic infusions if you're using a high 60 to 80 INT mostly pure caster as you can use a lot of magic buffs and focus and just damage. For cold that infusion is good if you are using a hybrid build especially INT/STR since it will add some INT scaling and keep a decent amount of the original scaling and while you might deal slightly less damage then a magic infusion the cold proc's and 20% increased damage against cold proc'd enemies greatly makes up for that.
Finally there is holy infusions. They are basically your better than nothing infusion for mostly pure FTH builds. Honestly you are better off using somber FTH weapons like sacred blade so you have pure damage but there are a few holy damage dealing weapons that can buff themselves and some builds around just a weapon like the Treespear are actually good since it has split damage by default and can be buffed using orders blade for the highest damage out of all the great spears on a 70 to 80 fth build.
As for poison, blood, and occult since those are really the only other split scaling infusion. Use occult on bleed weapons if you are mostly pure arcane and blood if you are STR or DEX with 45 arcane. As for poison pure arcane and hybrid both use it since you are really only using poison for the proc since the damage is pretty bad.
I miss DS1 armor
Should my Vagabond use DEX or STR? I use Bloodhound Fang if it makes a difference.
DEX scales Bloodhound Fang better.
@@Chrightt I see, so I should put way more points in DEX as long as I use Bloodhound Fang then?
More dex than str definitely, but if you end up leveling really high (if you're not staying at 125/150 for PVP), str still gives you scaling. Just make sure your dex is always higher than str when you're upgrading.
@@Chrightt Thank you for your answer! I am levling Endurance now to wear heavier armor and also for blocking etc, but will level DEX after that.
I know that is the DS3 defense math, but it really is one of the worst ways I have seen to calculate damage taken in a game. I also have to question if the negation is actually true percentage because with testing on the Putrid Avatar in Dragonbarrow (overhead staff hit) there seemed to be no difference in damage mitigated between 164 def/46.179 neg in Strike and 156 def/32.818 neg in Holy vs. 164 def/23.715 neg in Strike and 156 def/21.644 neg in Holy (phys, sla, and pie would be one to 2 percent higher, but I am certain the staff deals strike and holy damage as that is what the staff does when we get it. Which is the best guess I can make). So I am wondering how that is calculated by the game because otherwise there should be a marked difference in the damage you would take.
Edit 1: Just used the DS3 damage calc to check and there should have been around a ~324 damage difference between the two on a strike of 1000 damage if ER used a similar calculator; yet that isn't what happens in ER. So ER's calculator must be very different and, to be quite honest, I am not sure it is working properly if both of those two def/neg values took similar damage.
Edit 2: Honestly, the most simplistic damage reduction calculation I have seen in a game, and by far my favorite and most practical, is DE's in Warframe which is: % Damage Reduction = Armor/Armor+300. If, in ER armor and levels both gave flat values then something like that formula could be used to easily calculate damage. (I.E. With Warframe's calculation it is easy to see that 300 armor = 50% damage reduction.)
If ER is anything like past titles by From, most enemies don't deal anything other than Standard damage unless it's a very obvious elemental attack, in which case it's purely that element. Split damage essentially doesn't exist for anything other than the player.
@@notquitenil That is good to know, even still the math doesn't work out using just the standard damage type so this system has to be quite different from DS3. Either that or some enemies or attacks aren't calculating correctly because I am still trying to wrap my head around how 20% negation and 40% negation are taking the same damage.
So if split damage is worse the higher the defenses of the target, how does that work in PvE? From what I understood from the wiki, enemies only have % negation, so would it even matter in that case?
Wiki is wrong as usual. All PVE enemies have at the very least 100 flat defense of every type. Most of them are higher (and they grow higher at NG+ up to NG+7)
@@Chrightt Yeah something certainly seemed off about that on the wiki, thanks!
How about crit damage calculation? My misericorde has a fairly low AR compared to my main weapon, but always does more on crits. Main wep has MORE than 140% of the miseri's AR, so it's most probably not a simple (AR)x(crit modifier).
There is a separate Motion Value for backstab/riposte. Crit modifier multiples that MV by 1.4 (for 140%). Basically, it also depends on the "base MV" of the backstab/riposte of the weapon type as well.
@@Chrightt I see. Thanks for the explanation!
@@jeanbleu641 also, if you go split damage on misericorde, your crits are bigger as the calculation for damage is done twice. 140% of your physical and 140% of whatever element is present on it.
Defense TL;DR
if DMG is higher than DEF= Less damage reduction up to a minimum of 10%
if DMG equal to DEF = you take around half the damage you would normally take without defense points
if DMG is lower than DEF = More damage reduced up to 90%
100 DMG + 100 DEF = 50 DMG
200 DMG + 100 DEF = 150 DMG
50 DMG + 100 DEF = 12.5 DMG
Now I just want to know how multiplayer scaling works. If I take my level 240 character and use a password to help my sister and her level 20 character, what happens to my effective stats?
Also, what happens if we’re invaded while in co-op?
Will the invader have closer stats to 20 or 240?
The level of invaders is tied solely to the level of the host, so your level wouldn't matter in this case. As to what your stats would be, they'd be cut down to just slightly higher than what a natural RL20 character would have (due mostly to rounding). You would still have access to all the tools you had prior to the password debuff, so you'd overall still be substantially stronger just by virtue of versatility.
@@notquitenil That scaling ignores items and spells that I no longer re meet the minimum sas for? How does that work exactly? Does it affect the strength of those spells and weapons?
@@-Lindol- you just downscaled all around the board in every single stat.
wait. +5 to endurance might mean you get a higher tier of armor available to you. coupled with +5 vigor that should be enough to make up for 15% more damage
Soreseals really depend hard on what level you're at. I will be doing a deep dive into talisman in one of my videoos to show the damage calc on soreseals. Your statement can be true/false depending on what level we're looking at, so I get your point.
For example:
If I'm level 60, I'd definitely be bring Radagon's
but if I'm level 150 with full set veteran's and 60 vigor, I think you should easily see that 5 more vigor (1900 HP => 1930 HP) and swapping to bull-goat's (actually, not even enough equip load) will not be able to overcome 15% difference. You can say, "just do 55 vigor and then make it 60 with radagon's". Sure, but the 5 extra stat point invested in offensive stat that is probably at softcap too will not increase your damage by even 5%. The vigor gain from 55 => 60 is 1814 => 1900 (4.74%) which will act worse because your effective HP (EHP) will decrease due to having less negation (so less HP even if you have more).
Anyway, difficult topic to discuss in a short time. The -15% negation can be very detrimental because of the few possible sources of negation. The TL;DR is I'd avoid soreseals as much as possible after 150.
@@Chrightt yeah its not fair to check it at the softcap
Only thing I want explained is the one thingi can't find a video for....whT does + mean when upgrading a weapon....it's obviously not damage or percent
So lightning is the go to element?
Not necessarily. It just means that it has an edge over the other elements.
To give an example, catch flame is a good incantation even though it is fire. However, if there is an incantation that is exactly the same but does lightning damage instead, then it would be better than catch flame. For weapons, if you can achieve the same AR with lightning or fire infusion, I'd pick the lightning over the fire too.
@@Chrightt thx for you answer, your channel is priceless
9:20 wait is this right? I always thought flat damage negation goes first, and then multiplier.
Defense check actually happens before negation check. But this model will make it easier to understand how defense works (if you check the real defense formula I briefly posted on screen, you will see that defense check happens first and is also a multiplier rather than flat. It just works more flat than multiplicative compared to negation).
@@Chrightt oh yeah 7:43.
j.f. christ.
Is there a google calc spreadsheet with those values encoded, or any chart that shows what they actually mean?
For the most part defenses on pve mobs appear to be percentage only so split damage isn’t too important but players get very strong flat defenses from leveling so definitely avoid split damage in PvP.
All PVE mobs have at least 100 defense of each type even in the first playthrough. They don't only have negation.
Anecdotally, i never had a split damage weapon outdamage my main physical weapon during my playthrough, even if the AR was significantly higher. I think it's possible that split damage weapons with good scaling will outpace pure physical weapons once you hit the highest softcaps in all involved stats, but during a regular playthrough, i dont think youre going to get near that point unless you totally sacrifice vigor and endurance.
Lol I still just want to know, does armor matter or is it still just Elden Bling?
It matters. Getting to 51 poise minimum is life saving since you wont get staggered to death by a dog's sneeze
True chads go for the Elden Bling. It commands respect and it lets your enemy know that you’re not only here to fight but to also mercilessly style on them.
Ok, so how come when I use the fire attack (Night and Flame sword) I make 1000+ damage? how does the math work out there?
It's simply an attack with extremely high motion value (MV)
I think this author talked about it in some other videos
@@LaserTractor oh ok
I’m just here to find out why the Golden Halberd is STILL so much stronger than anything else I use.
I think its silly that lightning negation has no scaling with any stat, seems like an oversight
Damn, so this is why str builds always feel tankier. I didnt even realise str gives flat phys res
So I play a 54 str / 30 fth hybrid which gives me 80 str when 2h a weapon.
The Nightrider Glaive R1 with a fire infusion does roughly 10% more damage on the Cleanrot Knight outside the Prayer Room in the Haligtree area than with a heavy infusion.
With harder hitting weapons defense impact on dmg reduction is mitigated which leads me to believe that at PvP meta levels split damage will always outclass pure physical. If you are lvl200+, a 80/80 quality build will be a natural choice anyway, but at 150 and below, split damage seems better. Fire or Cold infusions are extremely strong at meta levels.
Cleanrot knights only have 10% damage reduction against the physical damage done by a Nightrider Glaive, and have a whopping -20% reduction against fire. I don't think this is a very good test of split damage, as the Cleanrot Knights defenses aren't representative of defense values of other players in PvP.
I am now more confused
Why do u stop at 125 I thought the pvp meta was 150?
? There is 150 though. I always cover for both metas (it's also in the timestamp with 125, don't skip too fast :D) 7:13
The PvP meta for tournaments, "official" duels and what not will always be 125, but lots of players go to 150 for extra stats or because they're close to that level when they beat the game, but you'll usually see players going slightly higher or under for more benefits
Now for the toxic thread. Knowing this. 125, 150, or 200
I might do one in the future, but personally I'm leaning towards 125 even though I do both 125/150 right now.
oh my god please change your subscribe image i just got flashbanged
I don't know if it is true... but according to a data miner that I've talked to... the game files only contain a single defense related value on enemies... and that is absorption... And to confirm this I've tried my damage outputs with both split and single scaling... eg. lightning vs keen... and often split scaling wins out on pure damage against baseline absorption stats... 🤔
I can tell you that you can see for yourself the defense stat is in your stat sheet and will change based on stats. Try unequipping everything and you will end up with 0% negation because they are unrelated. As I said, split scaling becomes weaker the higher level you go. This works conversely, because if your level and stats are not high enough, split scaling will always win.
@@Chrightt Yup, I saw a similar discussion on reddit... One guy pointed out that the formula falls apart because if it was a flat defense some hits shouldn't be able to damage you at all... Which someone tried out and it wasn't the case... Someone also pointed out that according to some guides the flat defense values only come into calculation while blocking.
Check the pinned comment! It isn't a strict flat defense, I simplified it for the general public to understand. The way it works is damage => defense check breakpoint => negation. The higher defense is in relation to AR, the more damage it reduces. There are breakpoints and scaling reduction, but you're right it isn't a strict flat defense because if it was strict that would make you unable to take damage, so it will only put you in the area of "greatly reduced damage taken."
But explaining a whole scaled defense reduction based on breakpoints would be very confusing and not be very helpful when the point is defense works better the lower enemy AR is. This is the example in the pinned comment (which ends up functioning like how defense actually works).
200 damage * 0.7 = 140 => 140 - 50 = 90
100 damage * 0.7 = 70 => 70 - 50 = 20
There are tons of nuances to defense and yeah, I should've definitely made it clearer when I said "just treat it like a flat damage reduction" that it functions in a similar fashion but isn't strictly flat def reduction.
Soreseal at post lv125 has been beneficial still because skill will still take presidence in pvp save for obvious match ups, ambushes or unfortunate positioning. This does not negate the suggestion but should be considered still as it is quite viable to have equipped with great consideration of the loss of defenses.
I disagree. With how cracked damage is in this game already soreseal feels like a huge nerf. Plus at 125 you hsould have more than enough stats to go around anyway.
Why does faith have to get the shaft? You'd think IT would increase your Holy damage negation, not arcane. If not, have it increase lightning negation at least since it seems like nothing else does.
From always had an pro intelligence bias. DS2 had a great spell system but then for no reason lightning/faith spells get nerfed. They already had the least amount of spell casts when compared to all the different soul arrow choices or even dark orb. But now they did even less damage.
In DS3 faith was a joke compared to pyro and sorcery.
It's better in Elden Ring but sorcery still reigns supreme. I just don't get it.
I know it was only mentioned in passing but the "meta" levels for Elden Ring really need to be revisited.
SL 120 was fine for Dark Souls where weapons only had 1 or 2 types of scaling and the soft caps for most stats were 40/60, but Elden Ring is not Dark Souls. In this game we routinely have weapons with 3 types of scaling and soft caps hitting around 60/80 not to mention higher end spells and weapons needing 40+ in certain stats just to wield them.
*** For example the Hand of Melania requires 16 str and 48 dex, or the Ruins Greatsword needing 50 str and 16 int. That's 64 and 66 levels respectively just to use them and not even at their full potential.
Then factor in Vigor, Endurance, FP and everything else and you start to realize that restricting yourself to Level 120 is kneecapping yourself for no reason just to follow a meta from a different game that with different rules.
I don't think it's knee capping. You can check my next video on how softcaps work and you'll see SL125 offers better variety because of tradeoffs than SL150 where you can just select everything! Hybrid scaling builds are actually stronger at lower level because they don't need the high stat investment. When you hit 150+ mono-scaling builds like using Heavy/Keen just comes out more superior so it'll be even harder to mix weapon + incant (percentage-wise you're actually losing ground vs a pure build at 150).
I played most of the game with the soreseal lol, a 10% damage increase isn't that much
Due to the way its calculated its much more than 10%