Thank you for watching and letting me share this story. It’s always a reminder that clear communication and mutual respect are essential in any professional relationship. Have any of you faced something similar? How do you handle situations where clients don’t honor their word or try to renegotiate on the spot? Let’s talk about ways we can protect our time and value as creative professionals! 🤬📸
I’ve covered weddings before. If I was the other photographer I would have packed my bags up on the spot and went home. Not only for respect for you and the embarrassing situation but the fact that the guy is scum and likely wouldn’t even pay anyway
That's some solidarity, right there. I wouldn't expect anyone to give up their own paycheck, but who knows how easy it's going to be for him to get paid.
Exactly. When he books, take a credit card for the non refundable retainer. For a wedding, I used to require a sizeable booking fee then payment in full 2 weeks prior to the wedding. No payment then, and I don't show up. Period. I am a professional and run a business. Want to contract with me, there must be consideration, thinks MONEY GIVEN, for me to agree to my duties. I refuse to be treated like "hired help" because I am and artist and a professional. If they don't like it, go hire some hamburger to give you crap.
I also agree that a retainer for a new customer is a good idea. Contracts aren't always easy to enforce. You did the right thing by being courteous to the other photographer. I suspect he wondered what surprises were awaiting him. The customer has played this game before.
A valuable lesson learned for any commissioned photographer - ALWAYS get a non-refundable deposit and full payment prior to the event. For short notices, payment in full in advance of the event. Exchange emails in agreement or send a simple photographer's contract agreement tailored to the terms. In final, professing as a professional photographer, this situation was self-created.
I'd have told him that - due to the last-minute cancellation - he would be charged 75% of the fee anyway, so he might as well agree to you staying and getting the photos for the other 25%. 😏
always get a deposit and have them sign a contract. ALWAYS. If they won't, they likely are bad to work for or will expect way more than what you promised verbally.
I understand the impulse to go down that road, but the amount of time and energy it would take wouldn’t be worth it to me. I’d rather spend the time working with clients, and getting new clients, that appreciate what I do.
To avoid such experiences, I always require e-mail or text confirmation of the order. However, in Denmark, where I work, the text with the address would be considered confirmation, and therefore, payment would be able to be enforced even if he sent you home.
As a retired wedding photographer, I understand your situation. I'm sure you can think of things that you would have done differently, had this not been such a last minute deal. You probably dodged a bullet. The rest of the event could have been just as bad!
This is why, when I had a chance to go fulltime and do weddings for a living, I passed and stayed at my regular job. Too many headaches with people who only think of themselves.
A tragic lesson regarding the absolute need for a signed contract, even on short notice. In the long run however, just think what a nightmare that client might have been when it came time for deliverables. You lost your day but probably dodged a bullet.
I agree with you 100%. I am not a professional photographer but I do own a small service business and unfortunately this type of situation is all too common. That is why for me everything needs to be in writing and signed. Also if travel is involved or if I need to reschedule to accommodate the client I require at least a 25% nonrefundable deposit especially if it is a new client.
I'm retired now, but I had a similar thing happen to me about ten years ago, so I really sympathise with you. The only difference was that I was sent away because I was a man......... It was the only time it happened in a career that spanned over 45 years. I had several gigs cancelled BEFORE I turned up, but that was the only time it happened once I'd arrived. I discovered later, from a friend whose sister happened to be a guest, that someone from the bride's place of work photographed the wedding free of charge, as a favour 😮
Earlier this year I told a photographer friend the joke/advice about the best way to make money from photography was to sell his equipment. He had sold it all and given up about a month later! I'd done him a spreadsheet to track it all for tax reporting purposes and perhaps seeing some numbers brought the joke home!
This is why I always did contracts for weddings when I used to photograph professionally. I only had two cancelled close to a wedding, (I think they broke up), but my contract had a sliding scale of cancellation charges ranging from 25% to 100% depending on how far away from the date it was. I implemented that after I drove to a wedding (in another country) to find they had cancelled the wedding and just not bothered to tell me. I did have one guy who point blank refused to return the contract, I told him he wasn't booked until it was returned and signed. He just wouldn't do it, so after around 5 reminders, I just left it thinking he must have changed his mind. On the day of the wedding I got a call 'where are you?' guy just assumed I was coming anyway, but I was booked onto another job by then. Apparently I wasn't the only service he was responsible for he hadn't booked when he thought he had and were also not there. Fun times.
For weddings I do similar. I don't have a sliding scale, but I do have cutoff dates for what funds are and aren't refundable. That's crazy someone would think they booked you without a contract after your reminding them you required one!
Im really sorry about your wedding story. When I Used to do wedding( Notice, I said I use to do weddings) I woild charge a booking fee. They would try to do that to me, I would not stand for it. For a wedding Photographer thats a big resposibility to deliver prints or pictures of that event. I don't take that lightly. What I would do is charge a booking fee of 1/3 the cost of the wedding, then if they cancelled on me , that would be no- refundable. You have to make a living, thats for your time and date secured just for them. Thats just a suggestion. Have a good day.
The only thing missing is the recording of the call you made, or could have made with your iPhone. That would have allowed him identify himself, and in his own voice made a complete ass of himself in public on the record! Just a thought. Thanks for posting about this.
I photographed a wedding, in the 80's.The couple wanted the full monty.£500[ a lot in those days].I took a deposit and shot the wedding.A nice day ,and all went well.One month after,still no balance payment.[photos still in my possession].Two months,no balance Three,Four ,Six months still no balance.Then I informed them that if no payment within one month there wedding pictures would be destroyed.I did so.Then after three years a knock came on my front door.He was very disappointed.
As others mention here, non-refundable retainer and signed, bullet-proof contract in advance - or I’m staying home and watching a movie. Sorry this happened to you. I don’t know how some people sleep at night, treating others this way. Sounds like you handled it really well 👍🏻
Sounds like a case for Judge Judy..... 🤣 This stuff is bread and butter to her in her court! The trouble is, so many people do not understand the idea of a verbal agreement and believe they are free to chop and change with no reckoning, and that's because it's too costly in time and money to take action against them. But you must surely really feel like doing just that!
@@AskaWedPhotog My advice is, always prepare a contract no matter how big or small the project is. It’s legally binding document that protects you as a service provider and your client as well. Don’t forget to collect a retainer, it will shield you against last minute cancellations and other “change of mind” surprises.
@@BelowZero And that’s usually my standard operating procedure. Given the situation and how things unfolded, I let my guard down and trusted someone untrustworthy.
You’re not wrong. For weddings and most commercial jobs. This is exactly what I do. Smaller organizations and individuals still occasionally work on handshake agreements, which was the case here. My bad for trusting this guy. I will be more cautious in the future for sure.
@@r423sdex Tell me the story about AI in about two years. Everyone, doesn't want to talk to you unless the hear AI but AI doesn't cut it, and take it from someone who's deeply involve in high tech.
@@r423sdex say you don't value what someone's style is while also saying AI can fix it. If all they want is snapshots of the day, sure most people can do that. But that means YOU would need to tell them all the shots you want since they wouldn't know from experience.
Never accept a verbal contract Because a verbal contract is no contact a signed contract plus deposit is a contract and if the customer double deal's you you can embed a Clause in the context that says if you turn up you keep the deposit meaning you won't be the one out of pocket because the world is full of time wasters
It is a crazy world, often f***** up by the Internet, people want everything cheap. I had a wedding, booked by the bride, cancelled because her father had booked the milkman as he was cheap. When I was mentoring another photographer we took extra images and offered them as an additional package. Only when a customer said they wanted all the images taken it got silly, they had paid for 250 images and wanted maybe 500, and mine. I told them I had deleted all mine and suggested the other photographer did the same, only he seemed to imagine the customer is always right. A professional photographer may have to compete with people doing photography for free, they put everything online, free downloads, when my income dropped to less than £5,000 pa I called it a day. [Motorsport incidentally]
Some people value cost over value and experience. This isn't an easy way to make a living, but I manage and have fun doing it. Thanks for sharing your story!
I can’t believe that someone screwed around with something soooo important as a wedding shoot. There are so many ways that this would go wrong. It’s one chance for one day in your life - pay a professional FFS.
I'm 100% on your side in terms of human civility, and 50% on your side in terms of business practices. He absolutely treated you poorly and should be ashamed of himself, although obviously he won't care in the slightest. On the other hand, why are you spending out of pocket and booking out a date to a "client" without getting a retainer fee or deposit. On the day of the shoot too. That's full fee up front territory, for example the reason you've encountered. If they've managed to get to the day of the event without hiring a photographer, it's obviously not something they value as a profession so they're going to be difficult getting the money from. Professionalism works both ways. If we expect our clients to follow basic rules like paying for what they agree, we need to follow it up by not leaving ourselves open to manipulation by people. I think you shot yourself in the foot on this example.
Software developer here. At least a clear email, that the client hires me. Either the client has a form, when bigger company ,or I use a simple contract form, with my rate, that has to be signed. If I don‘t have that, no dice. They could hackle later, or refuse to pay at all. They can sigh with a png, it is still valid.
That is sound advice. Typically do have some kind of written agreement, but this was situational so I proceeded with a verbal handshake agreement. My bad for trusting this individual.
@@AskaWedPhotog It might not even be him. It might be his boss changing his mind, trying to overrule. If they are not lazy or unwilling to write a simple email, they are trouble.
This is a learning experience for you. Why didn't you have a deposit put down? Why didn't you have a contract for services emailed to him before you did anything. Going to a job on blind faith is foolish and bad business.
As I mentioned in other comments, it was a last-minute, situational kind of thing. Not my usual MO. There are people who do business on a handshake, and this was one of those cases. Unfortunately, he went back on his work. With larger organizations, there is always paperwork, but this was not that kind of thing. Lesson learned.
@@AskaWedPhotog i totally get that, It is always when we try to accommodate someone without following our routines that we get bit in the butt. Deposits show good faith...if they can't do that then red flag on them. Wasting time is always the most painful.
You have every right to be pissed. To be told “no” is one thing but to be hired and show up at the job is not right. Yes it was only four hours out of your day and like a brussel sprout is hard to swallow you eventually get over it. Still not right
This is why I write a non-refundable deposit into the contract on cert a un shoots. Stuff like this is why I gave up wedding photography to be a combat photographer. Its a lot less aggravating.
I understand the impulse to go down that road, but I've spent enough time and energy on this guy already. I don't expect I'd prevail in such a hearing anyway, so I'm ready to move on and focus on the clients who appreciate what I do.
This is a fair point. Sometimes these things are situational but yes, I agree that a contract is the way to go to ensure these things don't happen. That point is on me. However, being lied to and gaslit is I still think is on him.
@AskaWedPhotog most certainly. He wasted your time and cost you money. I might have been cheeky and tested the reverse auction. Then, when the other photographer had left, told him I had another appointment and left. That would have left him with nobody - in desperation he may even have agreed to your original fee. I'd certainly have considered this if the journey time was considerable. Anyway, turning this into a positive - you learned something. 🙂
This is a fair point. And thank you. Sometimes these things are situational but yes, I agree that a contract is the way to go to ensure these things don't happen. That point is on me. However, being lied to and gaslit is I still think is on him.
Pretty disgusting ! I experienced nearly the same but the wedding couple were polite enough to mail they didn't need me as they picked someone else (cheaper).
This is an interesting story for a fellow photographer like me (even though it is not a very good story). Will you now change the way you deal with other clients in the future, having 100% signed documents on everything, etc.? Besides that, will you record communications, including voice over the phone, to have something to fall back on in case it goes wrong again in the future? I have not shot weddings for years, but listening to this story makes me think, I will probably do all the above if I ever shoot a wedding again. .... PS: Where I live we can record a phone call without the other person knowing, as long as the person calling is one of the 2 individuals talking at the time.... not sure if that is possible in USA or not. However I would definitely record at all times, from start to finish.
I’m pretty sure in my state we can’t record someone without their consent, so I wouldn’t be able to go that route. This wasn’t a wedding. I’ve never done a wedding without a contract. This was a commercial situation and some people do still work on handshake agreements, even verbal ones. My bad for trusting this guy. Will I be more diligent about such things in the future? You bet!
It's always hindsight, but you should have sent him a contract with a time limit to get the contract signed back to you. Only then do you make your prep and travel. In today's world, a person's word doesn't get very far, unfortunately.
This is a fair point. Sometimes these things are situational but yes, I agree that a contract is the way to go to ensure these things don't happen. That point is on me. However, being lied to and gaslit is I still think is on him.
I think lots of photographers get treated horribly on some up to many occasions. You are not taking it personally, based on what you are saying the client broke professional trust in a very bad manner. It would also appear he acted in a very bad faith and had this plan set up from the beginning using one photographer as a leverage against another. What the other photographer should have done was to walk away from the set as well. He agreed to being hired as a photographer not as a bargaining chip to force someone to go down on price. And both of you should sent him an invoice for the prep and travel cost.
That would have been a great example of solidarity, but I have nothing against the other photographer. He was a bystander. I'll be he has his own story to tell about the night!
@ not just about solidarity but the client needs to understand the consequences. To let him get away with such a behaviour contributes to the fact that he will do it again. And then you two photographers would have the same story 😊
Sorry for your trouble. With a regular lead time, you would habe been able to sign a conract, get a booking fee etc. It is a shame that your willingness to work on such a short notice is spoiled. I would have sued the customer. You cannont be such bad peoble get away with such behaviour.
With more lead time I'm sure this all would have been avoided. While I understand the impulse, I don't need to spend any more time or energy on the guy. I've moved on.
I just wish I had been the other photographer. As I would have gone home too. That would leave him without a photographer and he can explain it away to his bride and guests. Lets face it...... would he even pay ? Who knows..... the bride might have a change of heart..... would you marry such a person lol
Depending on your state laws never say deposit, that implies its refundable. Getting a booking fee, retainer, etc would have helped this not to happen for future events. Yeah while morally correct, verbal agreements are worthless....always get a contract even on these short notice gigs.
Where I live, a deposit is never refundable. I expect an oral agreement to be enforceable. It should, however, be confirmed by some means such as an email, SMS. The message should enforce that any deposit is not refundable, and/or no deposit by ... then no agreement.
In Massachusetts where I live, as I understand it, retainers are non-refundable while deposits can be, so IMO you're correct there. At the end of the day I trusted someone untrustworthy and got bit because of it.
@@oneeyedphotographer I don't know the legal aspects of verbal agreements, but some people do work on handshake deals. But yes, in writing is always better.
Yes! Here in Texas deposits can be refundable too so I call it a booking fee and clearly state it’s non refundable. But yeah we’ve all had those moments, but we learn from them which is why our contracts get longer and longer! 😂😉
Not trying to be disrespectful but if you didn't send him a contract asap then your responsible. I have avoided those situations for over 25 years as a wedding photographer. No signed contract, no photography.
You're not wrong. While this wasn't a wedding, and it's less common, but some people still do business on a handshake and their word. I trusted someone untrustworthy and got bit. I'll carry this lesson forward.
It's less common but some people still do business on a handshake and their word. I trusted someone untrustworthy and got bit. I'll carry this lesson forward.
This is 100% a story about you failing to get a contract- or even a confirmation email in lieu of a contract (Hi we discussed X hrs at X price with X as deliverables respond to this email with I agree to terms in order to secure my services)- and failing to get a deposit. All your excuses as to why you thought the deal was on are just that- after the fact excuses for failing to secure a professional agreement. Your customer was a smarter business person than you- that's the story. "He's not nice" really doesn't matter. Hopefully you learned the real lesson in that experience and adjusted your process. 😀
There are still situations where people work on a handshake deal. My error was trusting someone untrustworthy. I wouldn't agree he was smarter because he went back on his word, but in hindsight yes, I should have done things differently in this situation.
Dude, I was a US Army photographer, as well as a part-time freelance, including about a dozen weddings in a decade or so. Give me the security of combat over a wedding any day.
It's less common but some people still do business on a handshake and their word. I trusted someone untrustworthy and got bit. I'll carry this lesson forward.
This is a fair point. Sometimes these things are situational but yes, I agree that a contract is the way to go to ensure these things don't happen. That point is on me. However, being lied to and gaslit is I still think is on him.
@AskaWedPhotog agreed. It's happend to me but clients through friends. I generally ask for 75% cash up front if they come through them last minute. If they refuse then I don't do it
Thank you for watching and letting me share this story. It’s always a reminder that clear communication and mutual respect are essential in any professional relationship. Have any of you faced something similar? How do you handle situations where clients don’t honor their word or try to renegotiate on the spot? Let’s talk about ways we can protect our time and value as creative professionals! 🤬📸
Next Time, Get it in writing.
I’ve covered weddings before. If I was the other photographer I would have packed my bags up on the spot and went home. Not only for respect for you and the embarrassing situation but the fact that the guy is scum and likely wouldn’t even pay anyway
Well said.
That's some solidarity, right there. I wouldn't expect anyone to give up their own paycheck, but who knows how easy it's going to be for him to get paid.
Those were exactly my thoughts too.
Both photographer should pack up and go, should not tolerate this kind of person.
Here in the NJ/NYC area. Verbal nothing. lol...Contract and retainer are due at booking. A non-refundable retainer sends you home with at least $1K.
Exactly. When he books, take a credit card for the non refundable retainer. For a wedding, I used to require a sizeable booking fee then payment in full 2 weeks prior to the wedding. No payment then, and I don't show up. Period. I am a professional and run a business. Want to contract with me, there must be consideration, thinks MONEY GIVEN, for me to agree to my duties. I refuse to be treated like "hired help" because I am and artist and a professional. If they don't like it, go hire some hamburger to give you crap.
For weddings 100%. This was a situational case with a dishonest guy. I'll be more cautious going forward, for sure.
@@Bob-g1i For weddings I have a 1/3 non-refundable retainer. This was a specific situation where I trusted someone untrustworthy. Lesson learned.
I also agree that a retainer for a new customer is a good idea. Contracts aren't always easy to enforce. You did the right thing by being courteous to the other photographer. I suspect he wondered what surprises were awaiting him. The customer has played this game before.
A valuable lesson learned for any commissioned photographer - ALWAYS get a non-refundable deposit and full payment prior to the event. For short notices, payment in full in advance of the event. Exchange emails in agreement or send a simple photographer's contract agreement tailored to the terms. In final, professing as a professional photographer, this situation was self-created.
The man that supposedly hired you was rude and unprofessional. I am sorry to hear went through this.
I'd have told him that - due to the last-minute cancellation - he would be charged 75% of the fee anyway, so he might as well agree to you staying and getting the photos for the other 25%. 😏
always get a deposit and have them sign a contract. ALWAYS. If they won't, they likely are bad to work for or will expect way more than what you promised verbally.
This was situational, but in the end I trusted someone untrustworthy. Most people keep their word, but this is a lesson I'll carry forward.
They made a deal, it cost you. Take them to small claims court!
I understand the impulse to go down that road, but the amount of time and energy it would take wouldn’t be worth it to me. I’d rather spend the time working with clients, and getting new clients, that appreciate what I do.
To avoid such experiences, I always require e-mail or text confirmation of the order. However, in Denmark, where I work, the text with the address would be considered confirmation, and therefore, payment would be able to be enforced even if he sent you home.
Sorry about the problem. Thanks for posting...it will help others
I'm hoping!
After I sent you that reply, I started thinking about the same thing. You’re right just go on with Life.
As a retired wedding photographer, I understand your situation. I'm sure you can think of things that you would have done differently, had this not been such a last minute deal. You probably dodged a bullet. The rest of the event could have been just as bad!
You're probably right!
This is why, when I had a chance to go fulltime and do weddings for a living, I passed and stayed at my regular job. Too many headaches with people who only think of themselves.
This wasn't a wedding, but you're right that weddings aren't for everyone. You need thick skin sometimes.
A tragic lesson regarding the absolute need for a signed contract, even on short notice. In the long run however, just think what a nightmare that client might have been when it came time for deliverables. You lost your day but probably dodged a bullet.
I couldn’t agree more. I’m sure he would have drained my energy even more if I were to have stayed and actuality done the job.
@@AskaWedPhotog Totally. That kind of person can never be pleased.
@@desantisphotography No indeed.
I’m with you Seth 100.%
Unprofessional & disrespectful on his part for sure.
Thank you for the support, Peter.
I agree with you 100%. I am not a professional photographer but I do own a small service business and unfortunately this type of situation is all too common. That is why for me everything needs to be in writing and signed. Also if travel is involved or if I need to reschedule to accommodate the client I require at least a 25% nonrefundable deposit especially if it is a new client.
That's the way to go, even if I didn't follow my own best practices this time, even with it being a situational example.
I'm retired now, but I had a similar thing happen to me about ten years ago, so I really sympathise with you. The only difference was that I was sent away because I was a man......... It was the only time it happened in a career that spanned over 45 years. I had several gigs cancelled BEFORE I turned up, but that was the only time it happened once I'd arrived. I discovered later, from a friend whose sister happened to be a guest, that someone from the bride's place of work photographed the wedding free of charge, as a favour 😮
Last minute, no signed contract and no money up front- what could go wrong?
😂
Shocking! There are some jerks out there! Sadly, you were dealing with one! The other photographer should have left too!
Earlier this year I told a photographer friend the joke/advice about the best way to make money from photography was to sell his equipment. He had sold it all and given up about a month later!
I'd done him a spreadsheet to track it all for tax reporting purposes and perhaps seeing some numbers brought the joke home!
😂😂 thanks for sharing!
This is why I always did contracts for weddings when I used to photograph professionally. I only had two cancelled close to a wedding, (I think they broke up), but my contract had a sliding scale of cancellation charges ranging from 25% to 100% depending on how far away from the date it was. I implemented that after I drove to a wedding (in another country) to find they had cancelled the wedding and just not bothered to tell me.
I did have one guy who point blank refused to return the contract, I told him he wasn't booked until it was returned and signed. He just wouldn't do it, so after around 5 reminders, I just left it thinking he must have changed his mind. On the day of the wedding I got a call 'where are you?' guy just assumed I was coming anyway, but I was booked onto another job by then. Apparently I wasn't the only service he was responsible for he hadn't booked when he thought he had and were also not there. Fun times.
For weddings I do similar. I don't have a sliding scale, but I do have cutoff dates for what funds are and aren't refundable.
That's crazy someone would think they booked you without a contract after your reminding them you required one!
If I was the second photographer there I would have also left.
Im really sorry about your wedding story. When I Used to do wedding( Notice, I said I use to do weddings) I woild charge a booking fee. They would try to do that to me, I would not stand for it. For a wedding Photographer thats a big resposibility to deliver prints or pictures of that event. I don't take that lightly. What I would do is charge a booking fee of 1/3 the cost of the wedding, then if they cancelled on me , that would be no- refundable. You have to make a living, thats for your time and date secured just for them. Thats just a suggestion. Have a good day.
The only thing missing is the recording of the call you made, or could have made with your iPhone. That would have allowed him identify himself, and in his own voice made a complete ass of himself in public on the record! Just a thought. Thanks for posting about this.
I photographed a wedding, in the 80's.The couple wanted the full monty.£500[ a lot in those days].I took a deposit and shot the wedding.A nice day ,and all went well.One month after,still no balance payment.[photos still in my possession].Two months,no balance Three,Four ,Six months still no balance.Then I informed them that if no payment within one month there wedding pictures would be destroyed.I did so.Then after three years a knock came on my front door.He was very disappointed.
As others mention here, non-refundable retainer and signed, bullet-proof contract in advance - or I’m staying home and watching a movie.
Sorry this happened to you. I don’t know how some people sleep at night, treating others this way. Sounds like you handled it really well 👍🏻
If it ain’t paid it full I don’t even show up
Sounds like a case for Judge Judy..... 🤣 This stuff is bread and butter to her in her court! The trouble is, so many people do not understand the idea of a verbal agreement and believe they are free to chop and change with no reckoning, and that's because it's too costly in time and money to take action against them. But you must surely really feel like doing just that!
And that’s why I always collect 50% retainer fee once the contract is signed. No surprises, misunderstanding or other issues.
Perfect. Thanks for sharing!
@@AskaWedPhotog My advice is, always prepare a contract no matter how big or small the project is. It’s legally binding document that protects you as a service provider and your client as well. Don’t forget to collect a retainer, it will shield you against last minute cancellations and other “change of mind” surprises.
@@BelowZero And that’s usually my standard operating procedure. Given the situation and how things unfolded, I let my guard down and trusted someone untrustworthy.
Seth my homie i can't believe that happened to you , I would have been pissed that guy was an ass and so unprofessional
Contract form, invoice, paper work agreement end your future tears.
You’re not wrong. For weddings and most commercial jobs. This is exactly what I do. Smaller organizations and individuals still occasionally work on handshake agreements, which was the case here. My bad for trusting this guy. I will be more cautious in the future for sure.
Plenty of photographers around. With modern cameras anyone can do it. You can even get Ai to do the editing for you.
@@r423sdex Tell me the story about AI in about two years. Everyone, doesn't want to talk to you unless the hear AI but AI doesn't cut it, and take it from someone who's deeply involve in high tech.
@@r423sdex say you don't value what someone's style is while also saying AI can fix it. If all they want is snapshots of the day, sure most people can do that. But that means YOU would need to tell them all the shots you want since they wouldn't know from experience.
@@r423sdex There are indeed many photographers, but the tools don't make the service. There's still skill involved, but not everyone values that.
Never accept a verbal contract
Because a verbal contract is no contact a signed contract plus deposit is a contract and if the customer double deal's you you can embed a Clause in the context that says if you turn up you keep the deposit meaning you won't be the one out of pocket because the world is full of time wasters
Some people still work on a handshake and their word. It's less common but it's true. In this case I trusted someone untrustworthy. Lesson learned.
It is a crazy world, often f***** up by the Internet, people want everything cheap. I had a wedding, booked by the bride, cancelled because her father had booked the milkman as he was cheap. When I was mentoring another photographer we took extra images and offered them as an additional package. Only when a customer said they wanted all the images taken it got silly, they had paid for 250 images and wanted maybe 500, and mine. I told them I had deleted all mine and suggested the other photographer did the same, only he seemed to imagine the customer is always right. A professional photographer may have to compete with people doing photography for free, they put everything online, free downloads, when my income dropped to less than £5,000 pa I called it a day. [Motorsport incidentally]
Some people value cost over value and experience. This isn't an easy way to make a living, but I manage and have fun doing it. Thanks for sharing your story!
I can’t believe that someone screwed around with something soooo important as a wedding shoot. There are so many ways that this would go wrong. It’s one chance for one day in your life - pay a professional FFS.
I'm 100% on your side in terms of human civility, and 50% on your side in terms of business practices.
He absolutely treated you poorly and should be ashamed of himself, although obviously he won't care in the slightest.
On the other hand, why are you spending out of pocket and booking out a date to a "client" without getting a retainer fee or deposit. On the day of the shoot too. That's full fee up front territory, for example the reason you've encountered. If they've managed to get to the day of the event without hiring a photographer, it's obviously not something they value as a profession so they're going to be difficult getting the money from.
Professionalism works both ways. If we expect our clients to follow basic rules like paying for what they agree, we need to follow it up by not leaving ourselves open to manipulation by people. I think you shot yourself in the foot on this example.
You're not wrong. I trusted the wrong person to keep his word. Lesson learned.
Software developer here. At least a clear email, that the client hires me. Either the client has a form, when bigger company ,or I use a simple contract form, with my rate, that has to be signed. If I don‘t have that, no dice. They could hackle later, or refuse to pay at all. They can sigh with a png, it is still valid.
That is sound advice. Typically do have some kind of written agreement, but this was situational so I proceeded with a verbal handshake agreement. My bad for trusting this individual.
@@AskaWedPhotog It might not even be him. It might be his boss changing his mind, trying to overrule. If they are not lazy or unwilling to write a simple email, they are trouble.
@@datacoderX Oh, no, he was the boss 😂😂
Feel free to share their name so that other people can avoid them.
I'm not interested in prolonging the drama nor my energy on this guy any further than I have to IRL.
As the saying goes: "“An oral contract isn't worth the paper it's written on”."
Indeed!
If you are a wedding photographer you need your client to sign a photography wedding contract.
This example wasn't from a wedding, but the principle is similar. While this was situational, in the end I trusted someone untrustworthy.
This is a learning experience for you. Why didn't you have a deposit put down? Why didn't you have a contract for services emailed to him before you did anything. Going to a job on blind faith is foolish and bad business.
As I mentioned in other comments, it was a last-minute, situational kind of thing. Not my usual MO. There are people who do business on a handshake, and this was one of those cases. Unfortunately, he went back on his work. With larger organizations, there is always paperwork, but this was not that kind of thing. Lesson learned.
@@AskaWedPhotog i totally get that, It is always when we try to accommodate someone without following our routines that we get bit in the butt. Deposits show good faith...if they can't do that then red flag on them. Wasting time is always the most painful.
@@coreyhall Very well stated. It would be great to get the time back, but that’s not in the cards.
I would send him an invoice for your time and expense and take him to small claims court when he dose not pay.
Man I thought I had some rough stories , but it why I always try and get a deposit before I do any thing.
That's typically the way to go, for sure. This was situational, but lesson learned.
You have every right to be pissed. To be told “no” is one thing but to be hired and show up at the job is not right. Yes it was only four hours out of your day and like a brussel sprout is hard to swallow you eventually get over it. Still not right
Thanks for the support!
This is why I write a non-refundable deposit into the contract on cert a un shoots.
Stuff like this is why I gave up wedding photography to be a combat photographer. Its a lot less aggravating.
😂
Time to sue for loss of time and earnings. You have an agreement as per your email and text. Any judge would side with you.
I understand the impulse to go down that road, but I've spent enough time and energy on this guy already. I don't expect I'd prevail in such a hearing anyway, so I'm ready to move on and focus on the clients who appreciate what I do.
You need to get it in writing first - even just an email - confirming the gig and the price agreed upon. I'm sorry you had this happen.
This is a fair point. Sometimes these things are situational but yes, I agree that a contract is the way to go to ensure these things don't happen. That point is on me. However, being lied to and gaslit is I still think is on him.
@AskaWedPhotog most certainly. He wasted your time and cost you money. I might have been cheeky and tested the reverse auction. Then, when the other photographer had left, told him I had another appointment and left. That would have left him with nobody - in desperation he may even have agreed to your original fee. I'd certainly have considered this if the journey time was considerable. Anyway, turning this into a positive - you learned something. 🙂
This is a fair point. And thank you. Sometimes these things are situational but yes, I agree that a contract is the way to go to ensure these things don't happen. That point is on me. However, being lied to and gaslit is I still think is on him.
Pretty disgusting ! I experienced nearly the same but the wedding couple were polite enough to mail they didn't need me as they picked someone else (cheaper).
Sorry that happened to you! I hope you got to keep some kind of retainer.
@@AskaWedPhotog not really, didn't have a contract either
You’re not off base. Some people are pure a-holes.
This is an interesting story for a fellow photographer like me (even though it is not a very good story).
Will you now change the way you deal with other clients in the future, having 100% signed documents on everything, etc.? Besides that, will you record communications, including voice over the phone, to have something to fall back on in case it goes wrong again in the future?
I have not shot weddings for years, but listening to this story makes me think, I will probably do all the above if I ever shoot a wedding again. .... PS: Where I live we can record a phone call without the other person knowing, as long as the person calling is one of the 2 individuals talking at the time.... not sure if that is possible in USA or not. However I would definitely record at all times, from start to finish.
I’m pretty sure in my state we can’t record someone without their consent, so I wouldn’t be able to go that route. This wasn’t a wedding. I’ve never done a wedding without a contract. This was a commercial situation and some people do still work on handshake agreements, even verbal ones. My bad for trusting this guy. Will I be more diligent about such things in the future? You bet!
It's always hindsight, but you should have sent him a contract with a time limit to get the contract signed back to you. Only then do you make your prep and travel. In today's world, a person's word doesn't get very far, unfortunately.
This is a fair point. Sometimes these things are situational but yes, I agree that a contract is the way to go to ensure these things don't happen. That point is on me. However, being lied to and gaslit is I still think is on him.
@@AskaWedPhotog@AskaWedPhotog, your actions were honorable; his were dishonorable. This is if anything, a poor reflection on him as a human being.
I think lots of photographers get treated horribly on some up to many occasions. You are not taking it personally, based on what you are saying the client broke professional trust in a very bad manner. It would also appear he acted in a very bad faith and had this plan set up from the beginning using one photographer as a leverage against another. What the other photographer should have done was to walk away from the set as well. He agreed to being hired as a photographer not as a bargaining chip to force someone to go down on price. And both of you should sent him an invoice for the prep and travel cost.
That would have been a great example of solidarity, but I have nothing against the other photographer. He was a bystander. I'll be he has his own story to tell about the night!
@ not just about solidarity but the client needs to understand the consequences. To let him get away with such a behaviour contributes to the fact that he will do it again. And then you two photographers would have the same story 😊
Sorry for your trouble. With a regular lead time, you would habe been able to sign a conract, get a booking fee etc. It is a shame that your willingness to work on such a short notice is spoiled. I would have sued the customer. You cannont be such bad peoble get away with such behaviour.
With more lead time I'm sure this all would have been avoided. While I understand the impulse, I don't need to spend any more time or energy on the guy. I've moved on.
I just wish I had been the other photographer. As I would have gone home too. That would leave him without a photographer and he can explain it away to his bride and guests. Lets face it...... would he even pay ? Who knows..... the bride might have a change of heart..... would you marry such a person lol
While this wasn't a wedding, I do hope the other guy got paid in a timely fashion. It wasn't his fault.
Did he marry the original bride or did he make a last minute change to a cheaper one?
Depending on your state laws never say deposit, that implies its refundable. Getting a booking fee, retainer, etc would have helped this not to happen for future events. Yeah while morally correct, verbal agreements are worthless....always get a contract even on these short notice gigs.
Where I live, a deposit is never refundable.
I expect an oral agreement to be enforceable. It should, however, be confirmed by some means such as an email, SMS. The message should enforce that any deposit is not refundable, and/or no deposit by ... then no agreement.
In Massachusetts where I live, as I understand it, retainers are non-refundable while deposits can be, so IMO you're correct there. At the end of the day I trusted someone untrustworthy and got bit because of it.
@@oneeyedphotographer I don't know the legal aspects of verbal agreements, but some people do work on handshake deals. But yes, in writing is always better.
Yes! Here in Texas deposits can be refundable too so I call it a booking fee and clearly state it’s non refundable. But yeah we’ve all had those moments, but we learn from them which is why our contracts get longer and longer! 😂😉
@@whiterock1865 I've certainly evolved mine over the years!
Not trying to be disrespectful but if you didn't send him a contract asap then your responsible. I have avoided those situations for over 25 years as a wedding photographer. No signed contract, no photography.
You're not wrong. While this wasn't a wedding, and it's less common, but some people still do business on a handshake and their word. I trusted someone untrustworthy and got bit. I'll carry this lesson forward.
There must be a Yelp version to rate clients.
I'm sure I'm not the only vendor he's treated this way. Word gets around.
Sadly that is just how people are in the modern world 🤷🤷😵💫😵💫💩💩💩.
It's less common but some people still do business on a handshake and their word. I trusted someone untrustworthy and got bit. I'll carry this lesson forward.
This is 100% a story about you failing to get a contract- or even a confirmation email in lieu of a contract (Hi we discussed X hrs at X price with X as deliverables respond to this email with I agree to terms in order to secure my services)- and failing to get a deposit. All your excuses as to why you thought the deal was on are just that- after the fact excuses for failing to secure a professional agreement. Your customer was a smarter business person than you- that's the story. "He's not nice" really doesn't matter. Hopefully you learned the real lesson in that experience and adjusted your process. 😀
There are still situations where people work on a handshake deal. My error was trusting someone untrustworthy. I wouldn't agree he was smarter because he went back on his word, but in hindsight yes, I should have done things differently in this situation.
I would have taken a dump on the wedding cake
A bit extreme for my taste, but maybe a metaphorical equivalent would be the photos he receives from the other guy 😂
Difference between a wedding and a
war photographer? Higher life expectancy for the war photographer.😢
Dude, I was a US Army photographer, as well as a part-time freelance, including about a dozen weddings in a decade or so. Give me the security of combat over a wedding any day.
😂😂
@@davidscullbonz 😂😂 Best comment yet! 😂😂
The comments are right, next time do a retainer.
That’s always best, but situationally I decided to trust someone I shouldn’t have. Lesson learned.
No job without written and signed contract.
It's less common but some people still do business on a handshake and their word. I trusted someone untrustworthy and got bit. I'll carry this lesson forward.
Keep the deposit! Never do last minute jobs! Bet 2nd shooter, wasn't paid!
Honestly I do hope the other guy got paid. Given how the hiring guy behaved, though, I'm sure there was drama.
🥱
100% your fault for not getting paperwork signed including contract
Was this guy named Trump?
you dont use contracts? If not. Then its kind of your own fault. I was burned once but never after that
This is a fair point. Sometimes these things are situational but yes, I agree that a contract is the way to go to ensure these things don't happen. That point is on me. However, being lied to and gaslit is I still think is on him.
@AskaWedPhotog agreed. It's happend to me but clients through friends. I generally ask for 75% cash up front if they come through them last minute. If they refuse then I don't do it
@@synlfo7828 That's not a bad way to go. As I said, some things are situational, but one should protect oneself if one can.
This was a clear verbal contract but damn
@@intruder313 Right?!?