Two very important things: Expectation management, and rolling in the open. When everyone is cool with the stakes, then whatever the dice decide is cool, too. Also, it has been my experience that players don't care if their character dies, as long as it is a meaningful death. After all, there is no better ending to any character in all of fiction than sacrificing themselves for their friends, or cause or ideals. Walking down a hallway, falling down a pit trap and instantly dieing is lame. Sacrificing themselves to hold a chokepoint to buy time for the party to escape is badass. Throwing themselves on a live grenade to save their foxhole buddies is heroic. When players do stuff like that (and they will), it can take the DM by surprise. Pulling punches in those cases is actively detrimental, as the player was embracing their character's death. As a DM it would be your job to give that player a proper badass sendoff. Make it worth of bards to sing about!
Based on just rules mechanics ( and style of play and specific DM's and players ) the easiest to hardest versions of D&D are: 1. 5E ( and 5E with supplements like xanathar and Tashas having more options for survivability ) 2. 4E ( more early hit points and daily and encounter " powers ) 3. 1E AD&D ( the negative 10 hit point rule is implied to be standard and not optional ) 4. 3E ( real close to the above spot but has healing options for additional cures with clerics and a negative hit point rule ) 5. 2E ( negative 10 HP rule is optional , Kits may have advantages to survivability ) 6. Original D&D ( dead at zero with less healing than other editions ) 7. B/X D&D ( dead at zero HP's but has less options than 0E .5 or .75 of original D&D supplements ) BECMI may be equal to Moldvay BX for the hardest D&D game to survive
You guys covered most of the points I was going to raise during your conversation. Setting expectations before the campaign or one-shot, being clear that PCs are not protected by 'plot armour' in your game, and making it clear that PCs can run away (tactically) to survive are all great tools. One-shots in particular can be great fun for players to experience a TPK or NPK, especially if there is a strong horror tome to it! One thing I would add is the pre-game check-in since not everyone who is having a bad week may think to volunteer it before the session starts.
Regarding the 21:00 discussion. I know I had the experience of jumping from system to system and never found one that played how I wanted it to. So I found one that was close and basically rewrote the rules I didn't like. So just playing another system gets old after a while and it reached a point where it was just easier to repurpose a different system to play how I wanted it to. Just a different pov.
Great conversation lads, your outlook on death in the game marries up very similar to mine. I have ran a lot of 4e, 5e and BFRPG games over the last few years and on the most part I think players know what they are signing up for but.... The amount of players especially online that get butt hurt at the idea of a character dying is increasing and it's unfortunate, some people have this sense of entitlement that this over produced, special and epic backstoried character shouldn't face the consequences of a life that in most game worlds would be the most insane profession. "What you want to go and raid tombs and fight hideous monstrosities for a living" that stuff comes with the CHANCE of death
This has been quite the topic in particular lately. I wonder what sparked the discourse, if anything. But without death in your games, there is no risk, if there is no risk, there is no true sense of accomplishment when you overcome a deadly challenge. It also encourages players to make prudent decisions about whether they should fight or avoid a fight.
Most of the players I've met in high lethality games either put no investment into the characters at all and just keep feeding generic avatars into the meat grinder, or refuse to go on any kind of adventure at all because only an idiot goes down into "The Death Hole"
I recently had to revise my stance on lethality in 5e when playing with kids. Low level play, without caution, is till very lethal. More skilled players, with a wall of HP and abilities at higher level can handle things way above their pay grade if they play smart and support each other. I've been enjoying OSR products in part because of minimalism. As for non lethal options, transformation, maiming, adding a horrible aspect to a use of an ability. You can also target their allies and their reputation. Being socially shut down can make power meaningless. Every party seems to adopt a goblin at some point. Some of the hardest losses have been when the Goblin gets taken out, often protecting the group.
Thanks so much! In addition to TH-cam you can find us on Spotify and other places Podcasts are found. You can find our RSS here: podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/strangemagicpodcast
I like a game where death is on the table and sometimes you survive this grand battle with 1hp only to slip on some loose rubble and die from that, but it isn't a full on meat grinder like level 0 DCC, it may not be as cinematic, but it feel more realistic to me. I've also begun using a variation of the AD&D 2e critical hit chart from the combat and tactics book where most of the time it's just more damage, but there is a really small chance that an enemy lands a devastating blow that cleaves your arm off and now you can't use two-handed weapons or a sword and shield
Deaths are great. They are a part of the story you are playing and it’s so much fun. You can always roll another character and insert it in the story later on - a meeting in an inn or a prisoner or something like that.
I love 5th Edition using the Hardcore mode supplement. No long rests short rests yes and no death saves just go to -0 level hit points like in previous versions. Also, Players should have a backup character sheet already pre-made and a short background, not a novel. It also depends on what version of D&D you playing I love OSRIC, Basic Fantasy, and many retro-clones as well. I think learning more than one version is helpful to be a better-rounded gamer.
Osr is the way to go. Especially basic fantasy. No sense buying 5e books when you can buy the entire basic fantasy line for the same price as a single 5e book
A different version of the question: assuming you always make the best possible decision, how many times should your character die in eight normal sessions?
Death is on the table in all my games. Dice rolls are in the open. If you say your PC does a thing, they do it. In a game which is not specifically "cozy", I feel like nerfing death takes air out of the room in much the same way as spells which eliminate resource management or the dangers of dark and unknown places.
I like this channel and this video but in this case i have to disagree with respect. 5E D&D death seems to be the Domino effect of cascade death for the most part. ( not 100% ) While in earlier editions PC's die at zero or negative with bleed out. And even if someone does stablelize that Pc is not the same for awhile. Mages loose memorized spells and all are at a non combat status, Plus , and this is important 5E has LOTS of healing spells with lots of classes with those spells and no penalty after a PC is brought back up to positive hit points . and second wind etc. Healing Word itself is a game changer, I see death in 5e but its mostly a domino effect and if just 1 healer ( bard, druid , cleric ) then it becomes a whack a mole scenario
That would be true if the players were always doing sensible things. My experience has been they get overconfident and start doing not so sensible things... :)
One thing of note about early D&D: Players were expected to have many characters they rotated. Thus Tomb of Horrors can make more sense as a "gamble"
Two very important things: Expectation management, and rolling in the open. When everyone is cool with the stakes, then whatever the dice decide is cool, too.
Also, it has been my experience that players don't care if their character dies, as long as it is a meaningful death. After all, there is no better ending to any character in all of fiction than sacrificing themselves for their friends, or cause or ideals.
Walking down a hallway, falling down a pit trap and instantly dieing is lame. Sacrificing themselves to hold a chokepoint to buy time for the party to escape is badass. Throwing themselves on a live grenade to save their foxhole buddies is heroic.
When players do stuff like that (and they will), it can take the DM by surprise. Pulling punches in those cases is actively detrimental, as the player was embracing their character's death. As a DM it would be your job to give that player a proper badass sendoff. Make it worth of bards to sing about!
Based on just rules mechanics ( and style of play and specific DM's and players ) the easiest to hardest versions of D&D are:
1. 5E ( and 5E with supplements like xanathar and Tashas having more options for survivability )
2. 4E ( more early hit points and daily and encounter " powers )
3. 1E AD&D ( the negative 10 hit point rule is implied to be standard and not optional )
4. 3E ( real close to the above spot but has healing options for additional cures with clerics and a negative hit point rule )
5. 2E ( negative 10 HP rule is optional , Kits may have advantages to survivability )
6. Original D&D ( dead at zero with less healing than other editions )
7. B/X D&D ( dead at zero HP's but has less options than 0E .5 or .75 of original D&D supplements )
BECMI may be equal to Moldvay BX for the hardest D&D game to survive
The problem with 5e death saves is it blurs the line and isn't fun for players. It usually happens in combat in which case they are sat in limbo.
You guys covered most of the points I was going to raise during your conversation. Setting expectations before the campaign or one-shot, being clear that PCs are not protected by 'plot armour' in your game, and making it clear that PCs can run away (tactically) to survive are all great tools. One-shots in particular can be great fun for players to experience a TPK or NPK, especially if there is a strong horror tome to it!
One thing I would add is the pre-game check-in since not everyone who is having a bad week may think to volunteer it before the session starts.
Regarding the 21:00 discussion. I know I had the experience of jumping from system to system and never found one that played how I wanted it to. So I found one that was close and basically rewrote the rules I didn't like. So just playing another system gets old after a while and it reached a point where it was just easier to repurpose a different system to play how I wanted it to. Just a different pov.
I think, although this is an older vid, that you are both very spot-on with what you've shared here! Thnx 👍🤓
Great conversation lads, your outlook on death in the game marries up very similar to mine. I have ran a lot of 4e, 5e and BFRPG games over the last few years and on the most part I think players know what they are signing up for but.... The amount of players especially online that get butt hurt at the idea of a character dying is increasing and it's unfortunate, some people have this sense of entitlement that this over produced, special and epic backstoried character shouldn't face the consequences of a life that in most game worlds would be the most insane profession. "What you want to go and raid tombs and fight hideous monstrosities for a living" that stuff comes with the CHANCE of death
This has been quite the topic in particular lately. I wonder what sparked the discourse, if anything. But without death in your games, there is no risk, if there is no risk, there is no true sense of accomplishment when you overcome a deadly challenge. It also encourages players to make prudent decisions about whether they should fight or avoid a fight.
Most of the players I've met in high lethality games either put no investment into the characters at all and just keep feeding generic avatars into the meat grinder, or refuse to go on any kind of adventure at all because only an idiot goes down into "The Death Hole"
I recently had to revise my stance on lethality in 5e when playing with kids. Low level play, without caution, is till very lethal.
More skilled players, with a wall of HP and abilities at higher level can handle things way above their pay grade if they play smart and support each other.
I've been enjoying OSR products in part because of minimalism.
As for non lethal options, transformation, maiming, adding a horrible aspect to a use of an ability. You can also target their allies and their reputation. Being socially shut down can make power meaningless. Every party seems to adopt a goblin at some point. Some of the hardest losses have been when the Goblin gets taken out, often protecting the group.
Hi. Really enjoying the podcast. Is it available as an audio podcast on an RSS feed? My pod catcher didn’t find it in a search. Thanks.
Thanks so much! In addition to TH-cam you can find us on Spotify and other places Podcasts are found. You can find our RSS here: podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/strangemagicpodcast
I like a game where death is on the table and sometimes you survive this grand battle with 1hp only to slip on some loose rubble and die from that, but it isn't a full on meat grinder like level 0 DCC, it may not be as cinematic, but it feel more realistic to me. I've also begun using a variation of the AD&D 2e critical hit chart from the combat and tactics book where most of the time it's just more damage, but there is a really small chance that an enemy lands a devastating blow that cleaves your arm off and now you can't use two-handed weapons or a sword and shield
Deaths are great. They are a part of the story you are playing and it’s so much fun. You can always roll another character and insert it in the story later on - a meeting in an inn or a prisoner or something like that.
I love 5th Edition using the Hardcore mode supplement. No long rests short rests yes and no death saves just go to -0 level hit points like in previous versions. Also, Players should have a backup character sheet already pre-made and a short background, not a novel. It also depends on what version of D&D you playing I love OSRIC, Basic Fantasy, and many retro-clones as well. I think learning more than one version is helpful to be a better-rounded gamer.
Osr is the way to go. Especially basic fantasy. No sense buying 5e books when you can buy the entire basic fantasy line for the same price as a single 5e book
A different version of the question: assuming you always make the best possible decision, how many times should your character die in eight normal sessions?
Death is on the table in all my games. Dice rolls are in the open. If you say your PC does a thing, they do it. In a game which is not specifically "cozy", I feel like nerfing death takes air out of the room in much the same way as spells which eliminate resource management or the dangers of dark and unknown places.
I like this channel and this video but in this case i have to disagree with respect. 5E D&D death seems to be the Domino effect of cascade death for the most part. ( not 100% ) While in earlier editions PC's die at zero or negative with bleed out. And even if someone does stablelize that Pc is not the same for awhile. Mages loose memorized spells and all are at a non combat status, Plus , and this is important 5E has LOTS of healing spells with lots of classes with those spells and no penalty after a PC is brought back up to positive hit points . and second wind etc. Healing Word itself is a game changer, I see death in 5e but its mostly a domino effect and if just 1 healer ( bard, druid , cleric ) then it becomes a whack a mole scenario
That would be true if the players were always doing sensible things. My experience has been they get overconfident and start doing not so sensible things... :)