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Electric vs. Combustion - Which Makes the Better Racecar?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ส.ค. 2024
- Today we discuss a hot and controversial topic, electric vs petrol powered racecars, and which makes the ultimate racecars. This video was produced in conjunction with the Learn Engineering youtube channel.
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Thank you Kyle for this wonderful video. The 'Learn Engineering' version of this video will be released in a few hours.
Yup
Hope you guys enjoyed this video! The idea behind it and the animations were all provided by Learn Engineering, check out his channel here: th-cam.com/users/LearnEngineering
KYLE.DRIVES what about the emotional part? The fun of gunning down a thundring engine? I totally see the superiority of electrical traits. but think about it this way: riding a horse or a bicycle?
KYLE.DRIVES Pls more vids on electric racing. How long are the races you do with your buggy? Is it within EV range?
This is nice "down to earth" video. I'm glad that you didn't immediately jump the hype train, but still see the clear benefits of electric powered cars in high performance scenarios.
This topic has been on my mind recently because of Porsche quitting their LMP1 cars and instead investing their efforts into Formula E. As much as I LOVE internal combustion engines the future benefits of electric cars are hard to ignore. Thanks for making this!
BYRDMAKES to be honest, lmp1 is/was the pinnacle of efficiënt technology, the relatively open rulebook has enough room for creating experimental cars (prototypes) which had insanely efficiënt drivetrains. Given that formula e does not allow for team development on key elements of the cars (such as the batteries) it is not the best way to drive technology forward. I would rather see the lmp1 rulebook changed to fit sustainable technologies than everyone joining formula e. Big manufacturers joining Formula e is more a means of marketing their stuff than actually developing new technology
yes the lack of development by the teams in formula e makes it a bit less interesting, but i think it was useful for the beginning of the series, as it keeps the costs for the, in the beginning mostly private, teams low. But the rules open from year to year and i think in a couple of years we see a more open technology competition.
The ACO more or less completed the work on the 2020 reglement for the lmp 1 and you can see there, that they also tried to keep the costs down to attract new factory teams. With the new rules there wouldn't be much efficency improvements but a in my opinion useless plugin hybrid so cars have to drive 1km fully electric after each pitstop. So after a pit stop a lmp1 car is slower than a lmp2 car, because the combustion engine of the lmp2s has more power than the electric motors.
XilefR while I fully agree with you on that I also think that the best way to push technology (that is important to the automotive industry in general) forward is through endurance racing since with endurance racing you have to focus much more on range and durabillity than with formula e.
fritzie p ... I didn't realize Formula E does not allow team development on batteries or "energy storage" components. That is utterly Stupid and contrary to the basic purpose of competitive racing where this is the proving ground and accelerated development of technologies that ultimately trickle into every day practical use transport. There's a stink in that boot & it smells a lot like burning Castrol.
The Formula-E move from Porsche was more of a political thing than an actual R&D innitiative.
They came back, defended their record and proved to be legends once again. Once Audi quit, they had no reason to stick around.
So instead of saying "We rather not waste our money here, bye." they said "Formula-E is where it's at!".
Electric race cars will come for shoter races first and endurance races later.
They already do pretty well on the dragstrip, where range is not a issue.
They will do well in short races or time attack soon, since they only need a battery big enough for a single round.
They're not likely to ever be used for endurance racing, not without swapping batteries every other lap.
@idontcare80 not with current technologies no. But if batteries are developed that are lot more energy dense (e.g. over 10 times more), then the time to safely swap out a battery over refueling is not a huge disadvantage compared to the many advantages if the electric car in general.
My other account appears to be banned for the day, so I'll post from this one. I guess the Tesla fanboys didn't like the realistic view of EVs that I was presenting in my comments yesterday and flagged my posts as spam. Anyway...
That's a big "if." I'd be very surprised if battery energy density increased by 5 fold in the next ten years. I like EVs as daily drivers, but I think they're utterly boring and inept as race cars (except for very brief races), and there are many other applications where they're simply not practical. I'd rather see a true, green hydrocarbon or alcohol fuel developed for use in race vehicles and in other vehicles which require huge amounts of energy (aircraft, for example).
@TheBrokenWorld that's strange. I saw your comment when I wrote mine. I really dislike TH-cam's auto-filtering systems. My comment was meant to compliment yours, from another perspective. I thought you made a good comment.
And yes, I very much agree that it's doubtful that energy density of batteries will improve that much in the short term future. It will require another revolution like the lithium ion battery was. There are promising candidates, but we'll see if any of them ever make it into commercial production. Improvements on lithium ion batteries are currently not much better than linear, and probably will continue so.
As for racing, we disagree. I don't think they're boring. I think they sound vigorous, and their efficiency and minimal latency excites me. I'm sure newer generations will come to like them as well, when the ICE becomes old tech and the EV is all they ever know.
"I really dislike TH-cam's auto-filtering systems."
Same here, it just gets manipulated by slimeballs who have no problem flagging a differing opinion as spam. I basically end up with a limit on the number of comments I can post after posting controversial opinions. I think I got two comments today before they stopped posting.
A big part of racing for me is the sound of an engine and the skill that it takes for a driver to wrangle something as wild and primitive as an internal combustion engine, and that aspect of racing has been slowly diminishing in the faster race classes, but I don't think it will ever be replaced completely.
Very informative. I like the detail and the stats.
Pumping out solid content as per usual.
Hi if u could design a f1 car but without all of the bs regulations that current f1 have to work around what would u create
you would just end up with a F1 car with wider tyres, bigger aero, higher capacity engine made of rare metals and higher rpm etc. The "bs regulations" are there to stop the team with the most money winning because that what would happen given unlimited regs.
think redbull x1 concept
That's actually not true. You'd end up with a quasi-lmp type ordeal, like, as someone else mentioned, the Redbull X1 Concept.
With open regs you'd be unable to recognise an F1 car (which, alognside safety and cost-saving, is a driving force for regulation in the sport: tradition).
Anyone who’s ever been to a race would never accept a silent race. The aural experience is 99% of the fun.
Good stuff, should have talked about the mugen bikes. Electric all the way for street car though.
Great .Kyle I would suggest you to make a video on the emissions of cars specificly.i hope u would do that,and one more thing your videos,are helping me in my projects..........
Finally a car channel that doesnt talk BS!
Thanks, can you please clarify the 'grip co-efficient' which reduces with increased weight!? coz I feel that it is related to coefficient of kinetic friction which would remain the same given a specific surface characteristic of a tyre.
"ghetto torque vectoring" :D
Great information, with the right amount of humour, thank you Kyle!
please help me! what is the best car component to deal in i.e. transmission or cooling sys as i am looking foward to deal in some car components can you please help me with what components are commpn in fuel injected and electric cars ...
Hey Kyle, can you please make a video about exhaust blown diffusers cause i am reading so many different articles and they are all giving different explanations. One video,just one about exhaust blown diffusers and of course coanda exhausts
Hey Kyle, what was the car at 4:36? I recognize that DC motor...
Some improvement will be some gears in transmition for electric cars?. That will solve the problem to take more advantage of the range of battery. That's true?. Thanks.
F1 is all about going round half drunk round Monaco with a v10 deafening ur ear drums. Not cruising down Monaco at a steady 140 to find out you have won a trophy which is recycled copper
Great video. However charge time for electric car not directly comparable to filling gas. Most charging are performed at night while car not in use. Thus long charge time irrelevant.
real world vs factual data. Real world, you will probably only charge the car outside the home, 3-6 times a year. but the absolute time to charge the car doesn't change. 1-12 hrs depending on amperage available
Battery swap would be the best alternative. In a race setting where expense is no object
we need a race series with electric and petrol cars. something like gt or touring cars, maybe even a second more open series at the same day. there could be 2-4 runs of 10-20min per race day
e.g. 1 lap qually/time attack, ca 10min race and a ca 20min race. each race before would be the quali for the next race. drivers would get points for each race. you could have a electric and a petrol sub-championship adding to the overall championship to atract more teams in both systems
it would be really interesting to see vastly different cars on different tracks together. it would be important imo to have faster and slower tracks during the season to really see the difference
How big is the impact on weight in sth like Pikes Peak. In theory you only need to run your car for a few minutes. How much energy do you need to store for that?
Can you do the Aston Martin aeroblade
As a fan of vintage racing there is no debate in that arena. However for modern racing electric motors are the only way to go. If every car is electric then weight is not an issue. The E car that ran up the hill at Goodwood was sensational.
Great video well informative you should make a great skool teacher,..would love to see a video on eletric car towing, i know tesla Modle X can tow but are there any others ?? lemme know. thanks
Cogent analysis. Thanks!
For road cars, the EV weight penalty is already relatively narrow. A 310 mile range Tesla Model 3 is only about 10% heavier than a comparable 427 mile range BMW 3 series. The gap will only continue to narrow over time, and may have major jumps as new battery technologies go into production.
See also VWs 2018 ID R Pike's Peak race car.
But what would happen if you use an electric motor with a transmission? Wouldn't the benefit of having a transmission on an IC engine be negated since electric motors are a lot more powerful, especially in relation to its weight? Also, theoretically, couldn't an electro-magnetic transmission exist?
Kool Kyurem25 the torque multiplication in a high power electric motor, for the most part, would destroy most transmissions.
Kool Kyurem25 ... As Shadowboost mentioned, electric motors tend to chew through transmissions quickly due to their instant high torque output. Tesla tried to have just a second gear transmission on their Roadster in the begging but couldn't get a transmission to live long, so they abandoned it and settled with a single reduction gear. However,the Rimac Concept One has a dual clutch transmission, I believe, although their power output is split between 4 motors rather than a single motor like the early Tesla Roadster.
one option is to put an overdrive transmission designed to take the torque rather than a traditional gearbox.... you could even put a series of them but you'll get more and more efficiency loss for each unit.
You can always go the tesla route with awd using different motors and reduction. Use one more for low power acceleration both in the mid range for more power and the other more at high speed acceleration.
You got 1000 likes! Cool vid.
So how long until the pikes peak record is broken? :)
If you are a good designer can you redesign a modern version of the shelby cobra from 1966
I kind of thought that electric motors were more efficient than gasoline. But how efficient would it be to have a gasoline motor for the sole purpose of being an electric generator? Like what we have on trains that use a diesel engine to generate electricity, but electric motors to actually drive the wheels.
Formula 1 cars and other racing series have been hybrid for a couple of years. There are also hybrid sports cars and even cheap ones and the take away is that they're still not as efficient as battery electric vehicles, despite the longer range, they just have more energy available to waste. To compare trains, it's like maglev trains being way faster than diesel electric hybrids.
If super capacitors get better in energy density, I saw a great potential for race cars... High power density, and instant recharge.
1:29 It means the renaissance of aluminium bodies
The problem with having 1 motor per wheel is that if you have 4 200HP motors, each wheel can only receive 200HP, whereas if you have an 800HP motor and a 3 differential setup like what was used in wrc before it was banned, you can theoretically send all of that power to just 1 wheel if needed. Theoretically.
To give an example, Rimac Concept_S has 4 motors and the two motors at the rear have a peak power of over 600 kW for each one, meaning they, by themselves could deliver 1.2 MW to the rear wheels if the pack could supply that much energy. The motors can peak higher than what current battery packs can supply, there is really no weakness with multiple motors systems.
eternitynaut
Huh interesting, I think gasoline has an energy density about 1000 times that of lithium polymer batteries.
Comparing them on weight, it's around 0.150 kWh/kg vs 12 kWh so around 80 times more energy dense. With engine efficiency being let's say 4x lower, you get about 20 times more energy per weight. In other words, if you start an ICE car with 100 kg worth of fuel, to match the energy with current batteries you'd need a 2000 kg pack.
eternitynaut
Oops I think I added a zero between the dot and the 1 lol
Internal combustion engine are usually around 50% thermal efficiency, slightly higher for diesel, turbochargerld engines, and high compression engine, and less in case of the opposite. Electric motors are usually about 80% efficient, so about 1.6 times the efficiency. So a battery would need to weigh 50 times more. Not to mention that in order to recharge a battery with decent energy storage quickly, you need a type of battery that doesn't exist right now, along with a charging current so high it exceeds the current at witch our high tension power lines carry electricity. An F1 car from a few years ago could on the other hand pump about 100 kg of fuel in about 16 seconds. On the other hand, 16 minutes to recharge a similar amount of electrical energy seems like science fiction right now. And at your house's socket, 16 hours is more reasonable.
The claims for 50% energy efficiency are somewhat misleading. They include batteries and electric motors used to recover energy. A car without them will be lucky to get 20% energy efficiency. As for recharging, in a racing scenario there are a couple of solutions, one would be to do a battery swap or use two cars per driver like Formula E or design the race to be just long enough so that a single charge is enough. If they were forced to actually recharge the same car during the race, it would take too long, anywhere between half an hour to an hour with current batteries. The power delivery is not an issue, stationary batteries can be used to deliver say 5 MW bursts of 500 kWh without putting any strain on the grid.
Not only is the weight going to be an issue, but the range and recharge limitations just adds to that. A electric racecar going for 24 hours? Unless recharge times could be trimmed down to a couple minutes per ~1 hour depletion, we're just not going to see electric endurance racing at all.
Still confused as to why you only run a clear deflector in front of you and not your co-driver haha 😂
Good vid
Isn't it possible to combine both? I don't understand why no one thought of having an electric drive train using a small battery recharged with a turbine, that way you don't need a heavy battery, you can take advantage of a light electric motor and the torque control and, plus you could have a turbine giving out constant power to replenish the battery. AFAIK, and I'm NOT a mechanical engineer so might be saying s***, turbines can give out the same power as an ICE with haft the wait, so you can have weight saving there and still have all the superior control of an electric motor.
Fabio Milan i thisnk its because turning chemical energy into mechanical energy and then into electrical energy is inefficient, you save more energy by converting chemical energy to mechanical energy to dive the car.
Solid state
super capacitors would be better
Taiwo Olaleye this is a pretty good video on capacitor capabilities and the role of batteries and capacitors. th-cam.com/video/KQ2Eo6wl5r0/w-d-xo.html
They have lesser range!
maybe for a drag car but not much else...
What about using hydrogen as a fuel for electric motors? You still use an electric motor but with less weight and faster fill up times.
From my limited knowledge of the subject, the size and weight (not to mention the cost) of the storage unit is the issue leaving you in a similar situation as a battery. Then there's also the infrastructure issue, but that wouldn't be an issue for a race car.
Because they're massively inefficient, hugely expensive and it's difficult to store and transfer h2 safely because it leaks through airtight gaps, hydridizes seals and embrittles metal. A h2 fuel cell still needs to feed a battery buffer (though this can be smaller) because the fuel cell output can't be throttled up and down. The discharge capabilities (or more accurately lack of) of this much smaller battery also limit the power output of the electric drivetrain. TBH H2 fuel cell vehicles are basically a marketing campaign by carmakers.... the basic math doesn't work out for them a practical vehicles, in particular the economics.
cros13 can you present data to back up what you're saying
Methanol or ethanol fuel cells seem easier for storage.
Too bad really that cars with ICE's acting as generators with electric motors driving the wheels will probably never become common in racing, you'd really get the best of both worlds, any current F1 car would get absolutely wrecked by such hybrid powertrain even if the power restrictions still applied.
I can't wait for hybrid kits to be an off the shelf thing.
Some kind of kit that would let you mount an electric motor that replaces your driveshaft so you can use it to fill in power where the gas motor is lacking.
Implementation of hybrid system is the most difficult part. The electric motor can just be plug and play but making ICE and EV work together will take a bit of knowledge which is against "off the shelf" idea and this wont change soon.
even if that were available, if your car was not designed as a hybrid your going to have to give up your truck/boot or backseat to a battery pack. And not very good weight distribution if its just a racecar.
weight distribution could easily be 25% over every wheel as you could place the batteries wherever the weight is needed.
batteries above the wheels would be a very high centre of gravity.
Hydrogen powered F1 would be a perfect solution to weight problems of Li ion batterys, it would not suit road cars due to infrastructural issues but F1 could benefit from it
Last from the last
Soooo hybrid for the win?
no.
Hello most country lack of stable electric.so petrol car is the best
Solid State batteries should not be that far away. They are already saying it has 3x the energy density of current Li-On batteries. Add that with the fact that I.C.E. are about 4x LESS efficient than BEVs, and you have an even weight (overall). For instance, on the normal car side, the Tesla Model 3 and BMW 330i is about the same weight. The BMW gets about 150 more miles from a full tank. For about 150kg more, the Model 3 is only about 80 miles behind the BMW 3-series.
well, still not enough for GT racing with 1100 kg trough the field.
I hate electric cars. But their electric motors are just faster and torque ier. Just better. The only bad this about it is the co2 emission when producing batteries.
So simply put, Hybrids are better than both
Gas is the clear winner period
Clearly, that is why electric is taking over.
Lesics brought me here.
While I agree that those driver aids make for a more capable racecar, it makes the sport less competitive, therefore worse for racing. For example, I was quite happy when they ditched traction control in F1. The driver played a more important role.
Biofuel cars is better
If electric is developing,then why can't engines,even during 1900s electric cabs where used but they proved to be useless,so what if today we have fully developed electric cars ,then why not engines ?
Electric cars are nowhere near fully developed, especially battery tech, which is now seeing billions being poured into development and offers huge potential for growth. The combustion engine on the other hand has had over 100 years of development, and it is basically hitting the limits of what is possible, whatever money is poured into it now, it's potential to improve is tiny compared to electric.
Phil Terry come on man Iam itself a petrolhead and I understand,and for a fact you should be knowing different types of combustion engine,like the rotary engine which can outrun electric cars,also recently an efficient rotary engine has been developed! And a Diesel engine which can run on 1:1 gear ratio! Also charging a battery is about catenation which a slow process,and if you know ,a jeep grandcherokee track hawk sleeper can outrun a tesla!
Good post. I just don't understand why we are not talking about hydrogen cars in the racing community. This to me seems to solve all those problem. Race with hydrogen and you give up nothing and gain everything!
To my knowledge, hydrogen fuel cells only have moderate advantages over internal combustion. On top of that, it's not a very mature technology and not very energy efficient to produce or store, so I don't think it's going to be developed very fast.
Hydrogen is extremely difficult to store, the tanks are huge and heavy. Hydrogen is also a fossil fuel (usually), it just comes from natural gas and the carbon component of natural gas is just vented to the atmosphere when hydrogen is produced.
People keep saying that lithium is a rare Earth, that is false, in Earth's crust lithium has the same abundance as copper or zinc whereas platinum used by fuel cells is rare and less abundant than gold.
eternitynaut Yeah - lithium isn't rare, it's the cobalt that's often used with it that is. However, manganese and other less rare metals may be (and are being) used, as well as other materials entirely, so this isn't a very big problem. A lot more attention is now being put on better battery technology, so I expect rapid gains in the near and distant future.
Actually the biggest problem is the fact that hydrogen explodes violently. I mean heck of a lot violently than let's say gasoline does. As motorsport is something very prone to crashing hydrogen isn't the best solution to it.
Electric motors is the future but you have to agree that the sound of an electric car is just appalling. The only reason why I think electric car racing sucks is simply because of that Terrible sound.
I bet they said the sound of those new fangled auto mobils around the 1900,s was terrible to . ( frightend the horses)
I like sound of electric car way more than ICE. For me, ICE race car is sound like V12 WW2 plane passing by, while electric whine sounds like space ship. it's more futuristic
combustion racecars will always stay, just for the sound of them.
nope, not really
I beleve everyone who sings the praises of electric cars do a tremendous disservice to everyone by glossing over the battery issue. Some liking this video we'll give some details on just how inefficient Lithium-ion batteries are. And how they're never likely to catch up anywhere near the contained energy of petrol. With a bigger more important point is the hazards that come from the lithium itself. Most Western countries will not allow Mass Manufacturing of lithium batteries. And no one speaks of this. Also no one talks about what happens to those dead batteries. Yes there are a few places that are working on ways to recycle it. But then again you have massive exposure two heavy metals. Which I find extremely funny people talk so bad about the risk associated with nuclear power because of the radiation. But they don't seem to realize heavy metal exposure is 10 times worse and 100 times easier to get exposed then radiation.
Everyone's current solution to this problem which is very well laid out in the Paris climate Accords it's to ship it to China and pay them to deal with it. But the whole purpose behind this is a cleaner environment right. But we can't worry about the mountains out of getting ground up in Alaska to mine the lithium. I can't worry about the millions of square acres of groundwater that's already contaminated in China and several other countries from storing old lithium ion batteries. I guarantee you the lithium content of the groundwater in your city has been elevated over the last 10 years 100% due to lithium batteries.
And also you may want to read up on what lithium does when it enters the human body. It's an extremely toxic heavy metal. Even in minuscule doses it will create massive changes in your brains chemical structure. Oh and once it's in your body it never goes out.
The environmental damage from the use of lithium carbonate doesn't compare to even 1 oil tanker spill, let alone more than a century of oil use that lead to the CO2 atmospheric concentration to rise to 400 ppm or the oceans becoming acidic as a result. Batteries are 99% efficient, you have no clue what you're talking about. Energy density and efficiency in storing and discharging energy is not the same thing.