How did the Trill Symbiont Evolve?
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Truly you are history's greatest monster.
I didn't notice
i have to very much point out you seem to describe evolution like a pokemon, a better theory would be the symbionts evolved from a passive patristic worm that evolved along side the trill, the same way humans get worms, then a probable genetic cross over happened via horizontal gene transfer to the worm increasing its intellectual ability )say a trill gets sick while they have worms an virus x mutates causing the cross of of genes) then though selective breeding removing the parasitic elements you get the symbiont, this would explain why they need to be maintained by the guardians, this would also explain why some trill reject the symbionts because like some early humans some trill would develop higher natural immunity to parasites' which would then be passed on. the same way some one could have a immunity to hiv passed on via a genetic immunity to the black death the same thing could be happening to some trill to make them reject the symbiote this would then also explain why it rejected riker parasites only evolve to attack a very narrow spectrum of species
In non-canon, they are an offshoot. In canon, I know.
Unknown centuries ago, two little Trill boys were playing next to some pools of stinky water in some old caves. At some point, one of them reached down and grabbed a wiggly baby symbiot out of the water, turned to his friend and said... "I dare you to eat this!"
The rest is history. CHEERS! 🍻✌
I love a good just so story. I'd say the symbiotes' first joining was serendipity. Someone lay dying from injury and a curious, adventuresome slug just happened along. This union attracted attention, research, curiosity. Symbiote and host culture co-evolved to their mutual benefit. Hosts achieved a kind of immortality while symbiotes gained a revered status as living history keepers.
The symbiote may be a kind of genetically engineered personality and knowledge library. They may not be natural at all.
The Trill select the hosts most likely to be "great" and give them and future hosts a leg up.
Oh, nitpicking me, but: The difference between a parasite and a symbiont has its reason. The parasite only takes ressorces from its host, in somecases all it can get, and gives nothing back (ending with the death of the host, in worst cases). The Symbiont takes only what it needs, while also giving something back to make sure both survive for longer... a Parasite can't be a symbiont or the other way (as long as nothing is complelty wrong, but that would, logically, be the exception)
However a parasite can develop into a symbiont
There are real world parasites that takes control of their host, causing behaviour changes but they also extends the hosts lifespan.
the main difference I think is life span. most parasites are much shorter lived than the host they inhabit. There is an adavantage to the parasite to take as much as possible from the host to multiply while a longer lived organism would have incentive to maintain its host as it would benefit both.
I have an MS and did a thesis on the topic. All things that live in something is a symbiont. These is a spectrum from parasitic symbionts to mutualistic ones. Your mitochondria was once a free living bacteria but was so beneficial that it was made part of your cells and is an example of a mutualistic symbiont. There are far more mutualistic symbionts than parasitic, but the parasites get the headlines. There is nearly always a strong evolutionary pressure pushing parasites to become more mutualistic, still when a parasite first evolves it in normally nasty because it can take advantage of a new population and kills off a large fraction which leaves the parasite homeless. Only parasites that leave the host alive survive and the better they are for the host, the more likely they will be able to stick around or even be passed down to the babies of the host on purpose. Even things like tapeworms are not pure parasites because of this pressure. They improve immune function and fight off worse parasites although it is probably not best catch one on purpose..
@@bigsprucerabbitry6238 improves immune function? That’s unexpected.
Those critters in the TNG episode "Conspiracy" seem more like the critters that inhabited the ruined Ceti Alpha V in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan than anything like the actual Trill. Sure, the method of entry is different - mouth (TNG) vs. ear (TWoK) - but what they do once they're in is quite similar: "they wrap themselves around the cerebral cortex, making the victim highly susceptible to...suggestion." (Khan, TWoK)
Given that there's at least a good 80-85 years between the events of TWoK and TNG (since Generations has that ToS late 23rd century part at about 75 years before what's basically the tail end of TNG season 7/a would be beginning of TNG season 8), that's PLENTY of time for any further surviving TWoK critters to have encountered more unwary people, hitch a ride to wherever they came from in TNG, and to have evolved into what they are in TNG.
And if you wanna take a shot that's most likely *pure* coincidence, the Federation _could have already known_ about the actual Trill & Symbiotes in the late 23rd century, as there was a Dax serving on the Enterprise-A during the events of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Buuut, if they can make it so that Voyager's Lt. Tuvok not only served on the Excelsior under Captain Sulu, but he was THERE during the events of TUC, then the Dax we see on the Enterprise-A for a hot moment could very well be at least one host before the oft-mentioned Kurzon Dax that DS9's Captain Sisko knew that Jadzia Dax was previously...if not a younger Kurzon Dax himself.
All in all, we're gonna need for Discovery to canonically explain that for us; Adira is a 32nd century Trill, symbiote and all...and even with where Discovery began (ten years before ToS), the events of TWoK & TUC wouldn't have even happened yet. So Adira - and the 32nd century Starfleet Command - is literally the only link to everything that's happened since TWoK, TUC, TNG, DS9, & Voyager, and everything thereafter (including the 30th century side of the Enterprise-J's mission back to the 22nd century during Enterprise).
Everyone READ THIS :D
One problem with the TUC theory: Crewman Dax wasn't a Trill. His appearance on screen visibly demonstrates as much, most notably with regard to his feet.
Discovery isn't canon.
I would imagine that at some point in the past, Trill scientists recognized the symbiont's extreme longevity and mental capacities and saw them as a potential vehicle for immortality.
The Symbionts aren't the ones domesticated the Trill were. Look at everything around the trill and how they are much more concerned for the symbionts life than anyone else's. I think at one time they may well have been a space fairing race that found a way to have the good life with all needs and wants met, through domestication of a humanoid life form. The secrecy comes from the symbiont as part of racial memory as they no longer can take care of themselves after so long with their domestication sentient's taking care of them.
I don't know about a space faring species originally but I would agree the Trill humanoids are the ones who are being farmed. I suspect the original symbiotes were parasitic in nature. Meaning they found a way to invade the Trill eons in the past. Of course once joined they accumulated a lot of knowledge, ability to effect the will of the host and with the vast knowledge the power to effect all of Trill society to see them as benevolent. Putting their survival as a top priority and even convincing current hosts to pass them onto other hosts. Of course over time they grew to be a little less hostile and a true symbiotic society. Without any other verbal or written forms of communication however, their origins would have to be parasitic symbiosis. No Trill would have found one of them and said........."Hey I should put this inside of me".
Spots are a common occurrence in domesticated animals. We see two tipe of trill two with ridges and the rest have spots
So, you're saying they're functionally like the Yeerks from Animorphs?
I don't think the trill and the neck popping aliens are the same one.
In the books they are an attempt to create more symbiote so more can be joined but it goes horribly wrong and they are wiped out ( or attempted )
I'm not sure why their evolving is a mystery, there are many symbiot species in nature, they could well have evolved as symbiots well before they became sentient. The blue gills could well have inspired the go'uld in SG1 The trill are a fascinating species though
Closer to the Tok'ra symbionts, where the symbionts live in harmony with the host.
@@alucardleashed yes, the trill are like the tokra, I was referring to the blue gills who take over the host completely
@@swfcocs1 Well, I guess so. Those Tokra seem pretty cool. Though they still seem much more to time-share with their hosts rather than integrate with them as Trill do. Like, they still 'take over' their hosts but also let the hosts drive a lot of the time, too.
We got symbiots in our bodies right now. We have an advanced bacterial culture in our digestive system to help recover nutrients from our food. There also some infections that alter our personality. One of thease twists our mind into liking cats.
Symbiotic organisms in nature do not require surgical intervention. There's no way to 'naturally' get a Trill symbiote entering through any kind of orifice (ugh) into the organ cavity where they are shown to live (the abdominal cavity in TNG and DS9, the chest cavity in Discovery). The same problem Lore mentioned with the Blue Gills getting to the base of the neck via the mouth.
Perhaps the trill discovered the symbiotes existing somehow in other creatures and ran several tests and recognized somehow that the symbiotes carried on memories learned from their hosts, and by this hoped they would experience a sort of immortality.
Great video! For me though I truly think that there was an over haul on the symbiont for DS9. The TNG version feels like a half formed good idea while DS9 feels like a fully realized concept.
The parasite symbiont encounter was one of those rare times I've seen Picard kill a lifeform on sight: no attempt to communicate, no attempt to understand it. Nope. Just poppin' a phaser cap in its ass.
Sometimes that is the right thing to do.
they have evil intentions, coexistence is a lie!
To be fair to Picard, the parasite did hollow out an admiral and was using him as a meat puppet. Most Starfleet admirals are only full of bugs in a metaphorical sense. I think anyone's sane response would be "kill it with phasers!"
I’ve always looked at this with that piece of information from rejoined where trill aren’t allowed to reform relationships with a trill from a previous host. They mention the fact that dynasties appeared from trill passing their power and symbiote down to another trill.
I thought the trill had some kind of pouch they showed in ds9. Perhaps the symbionts started as parasites but as they developed the ability to share past experiences and memories it increased the survivability of both species causing them to evolve in tandem. The trill that were less resistant to the parasite gained the knowledge and the symbionts that were less harmful to the host got the opportunity to live longer and have more chances to procreate
P3X-888 is the Tau'ri designation for the homeworld of a race known as the Unas, the first race that the Goa'uld ever took as hosts &Wild" Goa'uld still prowl the rivers and streams of the planet, from which they once leapt to take Unas as their first hosts.
“Bodies generally fit together quite tightly” is such a strange phraseology, I love it.
Sadly, unless the Bluegills are brought back at some point - and sadly, at this point, I think Lower Decks is the only show I’d trust to do them justice - we may never know where they came from or how they evolved.
Comparing them to Trill symbionts is sort of like comparing dolphins and sharks: they have somewhat similar functions, but VERY different ways of getting there. (Unless a theoretical future appearance has them being somewhat closer related, in which case a more apt comparison would be bees and wasps.) The Bluegills clamp onto the brain stem while sticking their gill out through the back of their hosts in order to breathe, and aren’t able to access their hosts’ long-term memory… for some reason. Symbionts, on the other hand, are completely encased in their hosts’ abdomens, specifically share memories with the host (even the memories of previous hosts), and (claim to) form a new gestalt being with each new joining, unlike the parasites who dominate their hosts and use them as meat suits. The Trill also, to my knowledge, do not possess super strength or high resistance to phasers set on anything below kill.
I have to admit, though, the Trill symbionts do seem like their universe’s version of Goa’uld symbiotes, don’t they?
I always figured the Trill kinda lived alongside some pools that the symbiont species lived in all along, ...they sure look like they'd be nice places for a young hominid species to hang out for shelter, and have some kind of electrochemical property such that maybe the two started rough communications somehow... (like maybe inevitably a trill ...egg or larva or something gets in some unsuspecting Trill, grows up, and they both start learning how to talk to each other via those pools and anyone accidentally 'joined' ....the Trill get the major species advantage of longevity of memory (once they figure out the surgical option, anyway,) and all the fast tech advancement and such that comes of that, and the symbionts get mobility and hands and generally a lot more to *do.* :) (Consequently, the symbionts may not have even been intelligent as we know it *until* they had other ways of experiencing the world and things to do about it. )
What would happen if The Borg assimilated a joined Trill.
I liked how the Conspiracy arc shows how Picard is absolutely willing to gun down a threat with little hesitation when the situation calls for it.
Dexter Remmick had one of the best lines: 'We seek peaceful coexistence'.
Am I the only one who is seriously disappointed that this episode thread was quickly forgotten about in the Star Trek franchise? This episode thread would of made for one of the most horrifyingly beautiful Star Trek episode threads ever.
Surprised you didn't make any Stargate references
The analogy of the Symbote and the Trill being two computers working in tandem is an interesting one. Perhaps some Trill scientists long ago wanted a way to increase their own abilities. So they somehow figured out a way to effectively pop a second brain into their self. Then figured out how to take it out of their self and pop it into other people, perhaps their descendants, so their knowledge would never be lost, instead growing over time with each host.
Perhaps but I think it started with an infection that caused a symbiot to grow in the abdomen of some people. Thease infected people became smarter and thus more likely to become scientists. Eventually they figured out a way to transfer the symbiots surgically to allow the hosts to achive some meause of semi immortality via the symbiots.
Unknown centuries ago, two little Trill boys were playing by some pools of stinky water in some caves. One of them reached down and grabbed a baby symbiot out of the water. Turning to his friend, he said... "I dare you to eat this!"
The rest is history. CHEERS! 🍻✌
Symbiont lifeforms are in Star Trek, Babylon 5, Stargate.
Marvel. 🤷♂️
And in SG1 we have the Tok'Ra where they blend in a way not totally unlike those of Star Trek. There are episodes that suggest personalities blur a bit with time more than makes sense for just sharing a body and taking turns.
I don't think the Blue Gills are related -- I'd imagine that if they were an earlier form, that the desire to take over hosts and their societies would continue in what we see as the Trill Symbiont.
It is an interesting question... I have to wonder if the Symbionts and Trill had evolved closely in a much earlier time of their evolution -- maybe Trill and the Symbionts had both been ocean-born lifeforms, and the Symbionts would enter and connect to the Trill in their fishy forms, and this continued on until eventually the Trill started intentionally managing the Symbionts...
beneficial over 10 million years
i hereby declare that though never explicitly stated, Picard takes place in a different universe known as the "cringe timeline" or cringe line for short. the plots from this particular universe are discarded in a quantum time script flux or something never to be used for any writing purpose again. prove me wrong. any reference to past events that may or may not resemble the main timeline are coincidental. prove me wrong.
lmao
You can throw in Discovery in such a timeline as well. Maybe thease cringe timelines are due to Q having hallucinations...
This is pretty much Picard never left the nexus theory
@@MrNoobed"cringeline" yes
Sounds good to me.
If I were creating the story of the Trill, I'd have the first merger be 2 new friends that had recently learned how to communicate to each other. While getting to know each other, an accident of some kind happens, leaving both near death. Joining then happened as the only option left to these new friends. Not only saving each other's lives in the process, but discovering "joining" and all the benefits that go with it.
Always felt the Trill and the Tok'ra symbionts (from SG1) to be very similar in nature, minus the enhanced strength and extended lifespan.
The do have those Sarcophagus that bring you back to life
It's been established Trill and/or symbiote have some form of telepathy. The episode where Jadzia talks to her former hosts shows this. And when they visit the guardians. So you can easily jump from there that a Trill took a dive in a symbiote pool, chatted with the symbiote and they eventually figured things out.
That would be my guess. Once they realized the worms were telepathic and intelligent, the idea of joining got ground.
The whole idea gives me the trill to the very core. And I mean it!
The TNG version of the Trill. Have some shocking differences from the DS9 version. Let's dismiss the physical version of The Host. DS9 needed an easier makeup job. But the DS9 version is bound by different customs then the original version. Note all three iterations of Odom wanting to jump Beverly Crusher's bones. Kind of a No-No in the later Trill culture. Although I can see the Temptation myself. Gates McFadden is very hot.
Yeah, it's hard to reconcile the Trill that Dr. Crusher got involved with and the Trill as they were developed for DS9. Like maybe the TNG ones were some splinter faction claiming to be official while the regular Trill were being so secretive.
@@OllamhDrab I think there are two species on the home world. Star fleet acts like there is one because they don't realize the difference between the parasitic one shown in TNG and mutualistic ones with spots in DS9. There is a good chance that the trill home world hides the parasitic form because Star fleet would not approve, but they both coexist and I would love them to do a deep dive into the interaction.
I prefer to think of it occurring way back in the evolutionary development of the trill. Having your ancestors memories would be extraordinarily useful all the way back to hunter-gatherer days. Later canon shows Trill to have pouches
[eyes flash]
[resonant voice] _Bow to your god._
The last time I was this early Alien was in the theatres…
It does seem weird that Trill symbiotes need to be surgically implanted into their hosts. It implies that one or the other -- either symbiote or host -- was modified for the purpose, that there's nothing "natural" about it. The Yeerks in the Animorphs books are far more realistic, in that they enter through an existing orfice (in Human Controllers' cases, the ear), and are gelatinous in their natural, sluglike states, better able to squeeze themselves inbetween the wrinkles of a host's brain. The Trill symbiotes look way too solid, more insect like, and way too large to make their way into a humanoid host in any way "naturally".
The thing about Symbiots and Trills is that it works well for both parties. Sure the Trill give up some of themselves but in return their "being" is effectively immortalised. That is an effective trade off for most people, I mean who wants to just die when your memories can be passed down the generations? On the other hand the Symbiot is incapable of survival without a host, and using its memory bank to pass down wisdom gained by past Trill is a small price for a continued supply of willing hosts.
I think Trill's symbionts are either a product of engineering of some natural symbiotic relationshiop or evolution from Trill's own biology, when a parasitic fetus(it looks a lot like a cyst/tumor) instead of death or parasitic behavior or killing host survives and makes beneficial relationshiop with host. It reminds me of an episode of the X-Files with a man, who had a parasitic twin, that was capable to separate itself, walk around and join back to its host.
As you said the evolutionary angle is what stumps me for the trill. The conspiracy ones could attack & enter on their own. But not the trill ones. Maybe they could back when & the pool is the rest of domestication &/or peace treaty?
good theory. star trek isn't exactly known for 'Biological Realism' so it is fun to try and make sense of things.
i agree with your multi-species theory and it would probably make getting a symbiote quite advantageous since it would have the knowledge and experience of animals further down the food chain it would improve the apex predators ability to hunt them.
It's just a Goa'uld, or more like a Tokra
Trill is very like Tokra yes in the way they work. But the blue gills are closer in biology to the snakeheads .
@@andljoy It seems Tokra has less integration between the host and the symbiont. Maybe Trill also went through such a stage, or we can say Trill may be the future of Tokra.
My Theory is the symbiont started as a tapeworm-like parasite that began to use the transference of memories as a way to survive, things like which food is poisonous and where available food would be transferred to the host. As this advanced, they began to evolve to be more symbiotic as keeping the host alive indefinitely proved more valuable than hunting for more hosts. They eventually focused on the Trill as they could gain knowledge better than any other creature on the world and as the Trill started caring for the symbionts they lost their more predatory ways of entering a host.
We used to joke that writers for Trek moonlighted as Stargate writers. Trill=goauld. Borg=Replicators. Jaffa=klingon/jemhadar. So much more.
There is an episode in Star Trek Voyager, in which B'Elanna it's attached onto by an intelligent parasitic species, causing the doctor to have to devise a means of removing it from her body without killing her.
.......it's the Goa'ould 🙃😛🙃😛
Well, this took a really dark turn... won't be able to see the Teill in the same light again...
Jadzia and Ezri are radically different people, so whatever the symbiont does, it doesn't appear to take over the personality.
WRT to the symbiont, it might have been discovered coexisting with a creature that had a pouch for it. Creatures do co-evolve and can even become mutualistic or symbiotic - look at mitochondria or chlorophyll.
So here's how I would write it. Some native animal evolves to a mutualistic arrangement - maybe an equivalent of a semi-aquatic marsupial has a natural pouch where it can survive. It is observed by the humanoids that that species seems to have this thing that comes out of it and swims to a new host, and that if you teach the first a trick, it remembers it. It is also observed that the creatures don't seem to be sick as a result of having the symbiote.
One day a humanoid falls into the swamp, having had its belly sliced open. A symbiont swims in. The humanoid is lucky enough not to die from infection. It is astonished to have memories of being an animal as well as a human, and to understand that it needs to be near another marsupial to survive when this host dies.
It communicates this information to other humanoids. Perhaps it has happened before and the humanoid was killed. But this time, they don't kill them, they let them live, and see that the personality doesn't change too much, and maybe it even knows some beneficial things that help that group survive.
Knowledge of the experience is passed on.
Later, experiments might be done on prisoners - expendables, slaves from other groups. The lack of consent brings a shameful history later on. But slowly they learn what works and what doesn't, and are astounded to find that humanoid memories can be transmitted this way. It is a limited form of immortality, but it is still better than what most have, and I can imagine the rich and powerful craving it as a possible way to survive death.
I expect that until medicine improved to at least the point of antibiotics, the process would be chancy, but such research would have the backing of the elites. Perhaps they create a mystique to protect their hoard of symbionts - a lie that only the "blue-bloods" can receive them.
Later, as democracy and egalitarianism take over, perhaps the mystique is extended so that certain special trill could use them. But there is still that tradition, partly a byproduct of that multi-generational memory that the symbiont creates. It is done because it is done.
If the symbionts were like the parasites, they would be forcing the hosts to share them with everyone. Instead, the Trill are in control, and limit access to them.
Oh crap the discovery trill isolation from the home world are evolving into goauld!
One other major difference that isn't mentioned:
The Blue Gills also supercharge the host, to the point that a elderly human male can toss Worf around like a doll - and it's not like Worf gets beat up by superhumans as regularly as the Holodeck malfunctions [Worf never met a augment though - a oversight of the writers].
I like the idea of computers in tandem. I consider the symbiont in that way also but, like as a natural biological historical record computer that some Trill found out how to connect with in the ancient past while they were originally out on a search for hallucinogenic amphibians.
I saw in Star Trek fact files years ago that the symbionts were a result of a ecological disaster. If that’s so , it’s likely the Trill were around at the time researched how to safe them and joining was the best they came up with.Now it’s just natural
The Blue Gills could just be symbionts that _worshipped the Chaos Gods._
It has to do with a common ancestor. The symbiote can gather enzymes from the nervous system of trill because of it the trill learned this by observation of animals.
If they were related I'd theorize that like the Vulcans, and Romulans the Symbiotes took different paths, and had different results. The Trill version want to be as one with a host which lead to a bonding that they both enjoyed, and as a result the way in which they joined is voluntary. The Blue Gills on the other hand are Symbiotes who see other species as inferior. They have no desire to join as one, but just to use the body as a way of moving around. Because of this they have access to some of the hosts knowledge but it's limited. The way in which they take a host is also different. It's done by force so they invade the body rather than be implanted. I'd say that the Blue Gills are the original Symbiotes, and the Trill version are the Symbiotes that left, and wanted a symbiotic relationship with hosts.. Over time they lost the ability to procreate Blue Gills and no longer procreate in that way.
The Trill hiding stuff from the Federation isn't surprising.
The Vulcans kept the intricate details surrounding Pon Farr from even human scientists.
Where did the symbiont pouch come from? Are Trill marsupials or was the pouch added with genetic manipulation.
that the blue gills are intelligent implies that they could form a symbiotic relationship, they seem to choose to enslave their host. The lack of access to long term memory of the host could be because that is the only form of rebellion that the host is capable of.
The trill are classified as marsupial therefore they have pouches to carry their young and allow the symbiont to enter.The symbiont secretes a natural enzyme to penetrate the membrane sack and enters the body. It then uses secretions to join with the organs so that it acts like a neural transmitter and hence the two computer. It is likely early inhabitants could have fell or swam in the pool and the joining happened. It would go on and entice others to the pools and has the species evolved there was a shortage of symbionts. I would say that they would devise a system of Competition and as time progressed realised hat the symbionts can evolve to suite any trill.
I suspect the first Trill symbiote was jambed right up a Trills no-no place..
..and connected with the "host" to tell them to freakin stop using them as a sex toy.
Good video. You mentioned beta canon; I assume you were probably referring to one of the major story arcs in the DS9 "relaunch" novels which revealed that the "Conspiracy" parasites were evil first cousins to the Trill symbionts. I read those novels years ago and really enjoyed them. I don't remember all the finer details, but I thought it was an interesting idea to connect the two species. As much as we all love Dax, I've always believed that the symbiont race had a dark side to them.
I think the symbiote started as an intestinal parasite infecting the ancestors of the trill.
They carried the idea of a symbiot over to star gate
What do you mean by "Evolutionary Dead End?" It would only be a dead end if the animal could no longer have offspring or their offspring had little chance of survival. Take sharks for example. They have not evolved for millions of years, but they certainly didn't come to an end. Darwinian Evolution doesn't require continuous change, it just explains the changes we see in the fossil record.
There off spring have little chance of survival with out trill
@@LoreReloaded, I recall that one of the Trill Symbiosis Commission, High Muckety-Mucks, admitted to Dr. Bashir, that contrary to manipulated public knowledge, the majority of the Trill population (80+%?) was suitable for joining. There just weren't enough Symbiots to go around.
Get those wiggly worms a'breedin'! Feed them a bunch of questionable fertility drugs. Get them drunk, somehow. Pour a little liquefied Viagra into those pools! Put on some, Barry White, and light some candles! Then... get out of the way, and let nature take its course!
WOO-HOO! LOOK AT 'EM GO! Oh, baby!
Before you know it, they'll be spawning millions of eggs! Just like salmon, or sturgeon!
They won't be able to enjoy cigarettes afterwards, not in those pools, so they'll need Trill "afterglow" support to light them up, and blow the smoke on them when they come to the surface.
CHEERS! 🍻🐛 😂🚬 ✌
@@carldeithorn3450 Could be natural to have a low birth rate, Dax was what, over three hundred, so let's say one is born in any year, five or even ten years. That may not be increasable, think about how hard Panda's are to breed as an example.
@@LoreReloaded But that's the very thing, assuming for a second that symbiont evolution happened naturally, then that's the angle they took in their unjoined state they are nearly helpless from any predator... but joined with a trill and suddenly they have all the physical capabilities of that trill and can protect their young with all those abilities.
And yes, if their evolution was natural it was definitely as nasty as nature tends to be with the symbiont ancestor probably looking and acting much like the 'bluegills' of conspiracy hunting down and infesting the 'australopithecus' analogue ancestor to the trill...
What if the relationship was always symbiotic, but there were parasitic evolutionary off shoots? In general, a parasite wouldn't want the host to die and/or it would need a way to find new hosts. Perhaps early on it was mostly parasitic, but could record the memories of prior hosts allowing knowledge to transfer, thus leading for people to seek them. Early on they might have swam in water, but once they were bred they lost the ability to transfer themselves, but gained the ability to put more energy into its brain and less into mobility, as that's what it's hosts wanted. Then over time they developed sentience, learning from the hosts. Then some would decide to become parasitic rather than merging, perhaps due to a stronger egoic self.
Lore my dude I think you are way off base. In terms of TNG, I would say the Blue Gills are at best a failed villain plot device. The Trill symb's I think are a parallel species on their homeworld that at some point in evolution the two became compatible with each other. I would kind of guess that the first joining was an accident where one of the human form trills was swimming in the symb's pool and just like Amazonian worms can crawl up your urethra; one of these little buggers did the same and entered the human form triill. But once joined was able to effectively make the first contact with the other dominant life on the planet.
The first symbiont could have been a brain cancer or even a parasitic twin. The original host would speak of having conversations with this lump of flesh, and after he dies some scientists were like "you know what? Let's put it in someone else and see if these claims were founded in any way".
nice video, i have a theory in another topic... was the romulan supernova bullets from the Q civil war Q?
The Trill remind me of the Goa'uld from Stargate. They act nice and courteous in direct opposition to the Goa'uld who acted cruel and egotistic.
So basically more like the Tok’ra.
@@backupplan6058 The Tokra were one emotion away from acting like the Goa'uld. It actually happened in a few episodes. To me, the Tokra aren't anything but Goa'uld in reality. Different tribes, same species.
@@chrisdufresne9359 Definitely the same species, just different philosophy. I also note that choice comes into play for Trill symbiots. They can choose to take a backseat to their host as Dax did when placed in Ezri. She never wanted to become a host and only accepted to become a temporary host during transport but it took to long and the bond became permanent.
@@chrisdufresne9359 no emotional outburst ever made the Tok’ra act anywhere close to the personality of a Goa’uld. It was the use of the ancient healing technology that was incompatible with Goa’uld and human physiology that gave them the behavioural differences seen.
One theory I have had for about a year since my latest ds9 watch through, stems from the extreme reactions to a trill keeping a relationship from a past blending.
For what seems to be a very scientific based society, the trill seem to be religious fanatics about the symbionts coming first. This makes no sense when there are so few compared to the hosts. As if the symbionts are worshipped.
So many strict rules about who can have a symbionts, disguised as avoiding rejection. What is the goal? How many lifetimes would a symbiont get? And with the scarcity, why would they ever cut someone off from ever getting reimplantation?
My theory is that it actually is all for combining many many lifetimes into a single being, aiming for an evolution of sorts. I haven't really been able to put it all together, but it leads to amassing all knowledge until they can rid themselves of their physical being and transcend. Perhaps even to become Q. Any attachments that span multiple lives, any unstable consciousness, anyone breaking the required path could corrupt the eventual being, which with that much power, could be devastating. No time should be wasted on a life that hasn't devoted themself to the eventual symbiont that they may receive.
This explains the religiousness, the extremism, the rules and restrictions. And why an entire culture and race is based around a tiny minority. Worship of their own gods that they are devoted to bring into existence
I am sure there was more to this, but I don't remember right now, maybe I need to re-watch ds9 again. This is the first time I have put any of this theory in writing, has anyone else heard of anything similar?
Not the same but when are they coming these bug type parasites?? 2700 ad? Or staying away from earth??
You forgot to mention the larva of Star Trek 2: Wrath of Kahn. It seems like those larva do a similar yet more parasitic role in their host.
You mentioned the beta canon link between the symbionts and the bluegills. Have you read the DS9 books in question that deal with it?
The synopsis only
The Goa'uld have found a way to invade Trek!!
In Star trek online the parasites from the TNG episode "conspiracy" where made by the iconians
In Star Trek online, for a few years, *everything* was an Iconian plot. :)
@@dembones5005 that is true lol
I love this theory.
I think it's possible that the trill are not the symbians original host. But that the trill took up the mantle of host at the behest of the originals for some reason. Maybe they were dying off maybe a disease rendered them incapable of acting as a host. I don't know. But it isn't possible that the symbiotes evolved in such a state that they would be parasites that required surgical implantation to survive.
As a young'n my head canon was that they were a species that became stranded on trill and they adapted the native population to service them
what about the brain worms from the wrath of kahn? they were supposed to look like ant lions but.... anyway are those creatures with these in how they work?
Surprised that Dr. Crusher didn't know about the Trill host/symbiont relationship. Starfleet Medical didn't know about it?
Not at all, they kept it a secret
That TNG episode was gross where they blowed up the mother creature.
basically pacifist xenomorph?
3 types of TRILL
SYMBIONTS
TRILL FOREHEAD RIDGES
TRILL WITH SPOTS
My dude, there's a significant difference between a parasite and a symbiotic. The symbionts have a similar name for a reason.
This is the world of the parasites, we just live in it!
Just realised the trill stealer from DS9 is Teddy from Fear the walking dead lol
While biologically some symbionts evolve from parasites, most of the symbionts become symbionts due to at first being just an infection of foreign organism, and then the infector mutating enough to become beneficial to the host. While it has been observed in most microorganisms, it has rarely been seen in parasites and other small macro organisms.
Also, just remember, we are actually able to be born because a viral dna activates when forming placenta. To talk about symbionts, you may want to recruit a biologists to help.
Edit: So yes, it's possible, but highly unlikely.
The most likely explanation is that the species was symbiant from the start and trill wandered into them, OR that it was scientific experiment that went right, but didn't at first achieve it's objective, not directly anyway
When you fall in love with a horrible parasite.
Have you looked at STO there is more background of the Bluegills. At least according to the writers of that game.
I see you dropped Twitter. Thinking about it myself.
Not worth the return on investment .. net negative
That's a cool idea
Most likely the thrills started out as parasites.
Not the same species . Not even similar . Look more like the ones Khan put into Chekov's ear
*insert Stargate SG-1 theme*
Frankly the Trill symbiotes are just another Star Trek creature that can't exist in their current state naturally. Like the Ocompa from Voyager. There are only two theories that make any kind of sense - and they're both based on the symbiotes being artificially created.
1 - The Trill created the symbiotes. This is their last great secret known to a very few (pehaps none any longer). Sentience may or may not have been intentional but being a biological memory storage device for memory continuity over several lifetimes was. Bonus points for the better health, metabolism, etc.
2 - The first symbiotes came from visitors to Trill, who had already done theory 1 and decided to pass it on: Maybe the Trill were better hosts so the visitor-hosts decided to start a larval pool and even give up a few of their own to get things rolling. It might have happened before Trill recorded history - long lost to even storytelling, myth, or legend and even the symbiotes themselves if there is only so long they can live even hopping host to host.
Sounds a lot like the goa'uld vs the Tokra from Stargate.
This was creepy as heck
If the symbiotic organism/parasite uses abdomen, then it can use the cavity and be quite large. If the symbiotic organism is in thorax, it would be forced to replace internal organs and the host is more or less a shell. Anyways it seems to connect with the hosts metabolism and uses the body as if it was itself internal organ or organs - replace them and that could be a reason why they can't be separated. Neither host or parasite would survive, if they are interconnected and using each other's body as a collection of missing organs. It would require either co-evolution or rather engineering. But human body has neurons in abdomen and thorax too, and such trill would connect own CNS to hosts CNS trought this way. I guess. Trill could've evolved also from the host as some unique neoplastic organ, disease, tumor - a fetus can become a cancer. Who knows how oncology of embryo od the Trill's works. Genetics of a fetus could've been different, missing some organs and be parasitic as many monstra simplica are in our biology. But it wouldn't be a birth of stillborn acardius acephalus, but a fetus with wide variety of rare genetic mutations would migrate/join/metastase into parent's abdomen and after many generations such things would become normal and both organism will find a way to coexist without death. It's crazy speculation, but the nature is ful of weird symbionts and parasites and disorders becoming orders...maybe there is a reason, why human fetus is talked about so much in parasitology.
I'm not in love with it but it's an interesting theory
They're nice Tok'Ra