Terra Nil Claims It's A Reverse Citybuilder. It Isn't.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 เม.ย. 2023
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Terra Nil is a weird videogame, it claims to be a citybuilder with a reversed environmental theme, and yet, when it comes to delivering the fun you'd expect out of a citybuilder... Terra Nil just can't deliver - what gives? Is Terra Nil just a bad game coasting on false advertising, or is there something more going on here?
After clawing their way out from the ruins of their fallen civilization, and pouring over so many ancient tomes that they started to lose their charm, The Architect has gotten a few ideas about what's really happening with Terra Nil - it's a game that is specifically designed not to reverse the citybuilder, but to invert it, and that's a pretty big difference.
You Saw:
Terra Nil - 2023
Sim City 4 - 2003
Cities Skylines - 2015
City of Heroes - 2004
Civilization 6 - 2016
Anno 1800 - 2019
Satisfactory - Early Access
Factorio - 2016
Against The Storm - Early Access
Uncharted 4 - Uncharted 4
Final Fantasy 6 - 1994
Dragon Quest 11 - 2017
Xenoblade Chronicles 3 - 2022
Player Unknown's Battlegrounds - 2017
The Darwin Project - 2020
Minecraft - 2011
Infiniminer - 2009
DOOM - 1993
ULTRAKILL - Early Access
Metal Gear Solid 5 - 2015
Metal Gear Rising Revengance - 2013
Apex Legends - 2019
Counter Strike: Global Offensive - 2012
Resident Evil 2 Remake - 2019
Kirby and the Forgotten Land - 2022
Deathloop - 2021
Bioshock - 2007
The Stanley Parable Ultra Deluxe - 2022
Getting Over It - 2017
The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword - 2011
The Legend Of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - 2017
DOOM 2016 - hmm
Final Fantasy 7 Remake - 2020
Assassin's Creed Syndicate - 2015
Assassin's Creed Origins - 2017
Assassin's Creed Odyssey - 2018
Assassin's Creed 1 - 2007
Assassin's Creed Black Flag - 2013
Senua's Sacrifice - 2017
Mario And Luigi SuperStar Saga - 2003
Mario Odyssey - 2017
Sonic Mania - 2017
Rise of the Tomb Raider - 2015
Mirror's Edge - 2009
Dishonored 2 - 2016
Shadow Tactics Blades of the Shogun - 2016
Teamfight Manager - 2021
Resident Evil 4 Remake - 2023
Metroid Prime - 2002
Batman Arkham Asylum - 2009
Ark: Survival Evolved - 2015
Gears of War 5 - 2019
Quantum Conundrum - 2012
Forza Horizon 5 - 2021
Tchia - 2023
Xenoblade Chronicles - 2010
Scorn - 2022
Dead Space - 2008
Signalis - 2022
The Evil Within - 2014
Hollow Knight - 2017
Stardew Valley - 2016
Portal - 2007
Shovel Knight - 2014
Elden Ring - 2022
Resident Evil 8 - 2021
Runescape - 2001
Journey - 2012
World of Warcraft - 2004
Psychonauts 2 - 2021
Dark Souls - 2012
Prey - 2017
Borderlands 2 - 2012
Dark and Darker - Early Access?
Wandersong - 2018
Undertale - 2015
Grand Theft Auto 5 - 2013
Chrono Trigger - 1995
Psychonauts - 2005
Monkey Island 2 - 1991
Metal Gear Solid 2 - 2001
Dredge - 2023
Antichamber - 2013
What the Golf - 2019
Carrion - 2020
I Wanna Be The Guy - 2007
Jump King - 2019
Super Mario 3D World - 2013
Dark Souls 3 - 2016
Darkest Dungeon - 2016
Barbie Horse Adventures: Riding Camp - 2008
Marvel's Midnight Suns - 2022
Persona 5 royal - 2019
Hunt: Showdown - 2018
The Cycle: Frontier - 2022
Fortnite - 2017
Yume Nikki - 2004
LISA: THe Painful - 2014
Doki Doki Literature Club - 2017
Atomic Heart - 2022
Envirobear 2000 - 2009
Oxygen Not Included - 2017
Frostpunk - 2018
Surviving Mars - 2018
Rimworld - 2018
Immortality - 2022
Baldur's Gate 3 - Early Access
Dawn of War 3 - 2017
Sable - 2021
Pokemon Scarlet - 2022
There is no game: Wrong Dimension - 2020
Duty Calls - 2011
Wildfrost - 2023 - เกม
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Unsubscribing
Why?
Hey man, mind if I ask what game it is at the 1:11 mark?
@@maninthemask6275 You seem to spend an awful lot of time thinking about child predators... 🤔
@@michimatsch5862 he hates Elon and free speech
I feel like the idea of terra nil being a "reverse city builder" is a bit of a misnomer in a way, as I think it's trying to be a more thematic selling point rather than in terms of the gameplay and genre. It's a reverse city builder in the sense that you're returning the world to a natural state rather than conquering it, instead of it literally being a city builder in reverse.
exactly, and i assumed that thematic meaning would apply to the gameplay too, making it an "anti" city builder. if you read it as the reverse of a city builder rather than a city builder in reverse that's what you get.
its still fun asf though
I agree. Honestly. I call Terra Nil mechanically what it is. A puzzle game. A very nice puzzle game with neat mechanics, a very generous failure and win state and a good message.
@@siph0r154 I'd call it a puzzle game as well. Or problem solving game, since it's not about a single solution.
thematic reverse city building v. conceptual reverse city builder?...
“Terra Nil isn’t a reverse city builder, it doesn’t scratch my city planning itch.”
I genuinely want to hear him define “reverse”.
Yes, this. I was screaming variations of this at the screen up until the moment he said "it's not a reverse citybuilder, it's an anti citybuilder." He's an idiot who doesn't know how words work.
yeah, i was really scratching my head at that. like that's the point. this is a good video but the premise is flawed
that annoyed me so much lol
these youtube Video-Essay people sure be talking out of their ass sometimes haha
I get what he means.
"This is a puzzle game"
"This is a reverse city builder"
The former I think gives a better idea of what the game actually is. Even if you call it a reverse city builder, I'd expect it to be similar to a city builder, but with a twist.
Imagine Tetris calling itself a reverse RPG game. Sure, you aren't playing a role in Tetris, but I was kinda expecting something else from the description "reverse RPG".
It's not a reverse city builder. You don't deconstruct buildings and chase away people.
I would have thought a reverse city builder would be a game where the budding metropolis is actually the enemy, controlled by A.I. And you have to put together efficient ways of sabotaging and destroying the city as it tries to develop.
Thats such a good idea
Same here I though you would have to go against a stable society and somehow topple all that through whatever means necessary
Same
Isn't that just a single player RTS?
I also thought from the title that it would be something like this
Shoutouts to Minecraft developer, Hatsune Miku
Lol
Great way for Adam to see if the viewer is paying attention lol
but the creator of minecarf is notch
@@apkhbmbgamlkbh1531there is an ongoing joke that since notch is (or was idk) a terrible person minecraft was I initially created by miku instead
@@Charlie.G so we cant mention "bad" people now?
It is due to that "genre burnout" that I do not play many AAA games anymore. I play a lot more Indie games or small team games because it is there that either a new and interesting idea can be put forth or it can subvert my expectations. Games like Spiritfarer, Wuppo, Underhero and Celeste have been some of my fondest games in the last 2 years because of how good they are, how unique they are and how they make me feel something new.
I've been experiencing broad gaming burnout for several years and I've yet to figure out exactly why. Unfortunately I don't think it's only about desiring to be surprised like with this anti-game theory - because it doesn't make me appreciate the predictable games again (anymore?). My childhood favorites are still fond memories, but I don't enjoy playing them anymore. The closest I can come is vicarious enjoyment when playing games with someone else who enjoys the game. Or designing my own game and thinking about how much fun it'll be for the players. Am I alone in feeling this way?
@@Muskar2 I'm the exact same way. I can only really enjoy games with other people. I used to love Garry's Mod, but now it just feels empty. So i've moved onto designing my own games.
@@sourestcake Thank you for sharing that. That means a lot.
Play Ctrl Alt Ego, you'll love it.
@@Muskar2 I felt the need to reply to this, because I felt this way for a while. In my case it was both a consequence of getting bored with them, but also because I had short-term depression.
Therapy and medication helped me enjoy videogames again after a year or two. If it's not just videogames, it could be a good idea to seek out counseling.
If it is JUST video games, then maybe distance will make the heart grow fonder?
This is something I've found myself explaining a lot to my gamer friends. I consider myself a gamer for sure and I love video games, but compared to the majority, I really didn't get the "gaming growing up" experience. My first "actual" video game was TES Oblivion and I played it at the age of 20. I had some money left from a birthday gift card at an art shop, it was the sales season and there was the 10-year anniversary edition of Oblivion on sale. I had no idea what it was, I just thought the jacket looked interesting and I had played a bunch of DS games up until I was 15 or so, so I had a mild understanding of video games. So I thought hey, why not, for that price I can buy something I might not use at all. When I took the train back to my university flat, I opened my study laptop, put the CD inside and booted up Oblivion.
I cannot begin to explain what it's like playing your first video game at 20 and having NONE of the background knowledge you reference in this video. I understood NOTHING. I was so lost, but it was *so fun*. I spent the entire train ride just on the tutorial level, hopelessly lost on how the game worked and constantly referencing the barebone paper game manual that came with the box. I played Oblivion for hours, trying to figure out mechanics and gameplay and what the game expected of me. It doesn't help that I was born with a disability so I struggled at times with using my hands (which is the reason why, 5 years later, I still haven't played a single game with a controller - yes, I do indeed play Dark Souls and other similar games with mouse and keyboards, sue my body, not me).
But I had a blast. It was so fun, no matter how much I struggled. I remember my best friend coming to my flat to spend some quality time afternoon, and I had been playing Oblivion. At the time, I was perhaps 20% done with the game and I had still not figured out hwo the lockpicking worked. I would spend literal hours on the same lock. And she came into my room, asking what I was doing, so I showed her my laptop and explained what I was stuck on. She had never played a video game either, and we spent almost the entire afternoon slouched on the bed, looking at my poor study laptop, trying lock after lock and doing our best to figure out this damn mechanic. It was so much fun and a great memory.
Playing Oblivion, it never occurred to me that other video games existed; I didn't know what Steam was, since I installed from a box CD, so I just kept playing Oblivion. For over a year, I spent more than 400 hours in the game, polishing the hell at of it. At that point, I had shown my sister this incredible thing I had found, since we're so close in years, and we would take turn on my laptop playing it for hours. So one day, when my next birthday came around and I got that same art shop gift card, I went back and something caught my eye: the box set for the GOTY edition of TES Skyrim.
I recognised the font, the name, I was so excited! My sister was with me and we were screetching like dinosaurs in the shop, two 20-something starring at their second video game ever. I immediately bought it, and we collectively sunk another 800 hours into the game over the next year or so. So many new mechanics, stuff we didn't understand, but we began to see the pattern, that intrinsic knowledge you're talking about, all those things you "just know" when you've played game before.
And this was our pattern. About twice a year, we would go to that art shop (since, to our knowledge, that was the only way to get games) and we picked up what we found interesting. Our third video game was Dishonored, and to this day, still my favourite game ever. The fourth was Shadow of Mordor, my sister's favourite of all time. We've played a LOT of games since, discovered Steam, discovered the gaming world in general.
But because we came into games so late and had to play catch up, we never forgot that lack of knowledge we had at the beginning, how much we struggled because NOTHING was explained to us on a level we could understand. The games just *assumed* we knew that hitting space would make us jump. I remember having a notepad next to the computer while playing Oblivion, where I would religiously write down the controls and tutorial bits I got from the games and rephrase it in ways I could understand and easily reference while playing.
It was such a cool way to get into game, this organic "let's figure it out as a team" mentality between my sister and I, discovering games one after the other. Probably one of the best experiences of my life.
You're the best type of person to share childhood favorites with! So many games I love and appreciate but it's hard to recommend to other people who have played countless games, and so bring in so much baggage when I try to introduce something to them that I loved long ago.
Most gamers started to play to soon to remember those moments of figuring out the implicit rules. The closes I have is that I started playing shooters with analog sticks a bit late, like 10 or so years old. I remember that was a frustrating nightmare. I couldn't walk and look at the same time at all, it was just so confusing, like trying to look to different things with each eye at the same time. It seemed impossible to synchronize and control both hands at the same time. And ended up looking at lot to the ground and sky. Almost gave up, but the allure of shooting game was so good I persevered. And today it's natural, don't even think about it. It's like breading.
Exploring the Options menu is an adventure even in itself, I know a few people who are terrified of breaking things who see the options menu and completely avoid it. How did you feel after discovering that options existed?
you arent a gamer then.
This was a lovely story!!
I wanna see a true reverse citybuilder where you systematically scrap buildings for raw materials, like stripping the walls of copper pipes and wire. Like Hardspace Shipbreaker but with buildings.
I feel like the classic flash game Rebuild kinda fits that description. You build a walled city inside the city, out of scavenged materials, during the apocalypse.
This is technically the fall of winterhome in frostpunk
Get hooked on drugs and you can play this game in real life.
Forever Skies might be something like that? It's like Subnautica, but in the sky of an abandoned planet, with decaying buildings and such.
there's also lumbearjack
I love channels like Razbuten, Game Maker's Toolkit and this one, which dig deeper in the game mechanics and things "under the hood" of gaming and game culture.
I recommend Daryl Talks Games!
I regularly confuse the four channels mentioned above
I've been into game-design discussion channels since Extra Credits was still strictly a gaming channel. So many game-design channels now take that original concept and take it far beyond what anyone could've imagined in the early 10s.
@@door_productions4896 same
Most Generic comment 2023:
I have to disagree with the idea that humans and nature can’t coexist, but this looks like a very interesting game.
I think that there needs to be some “untouched” areas of the world, just due to the fact that humans can’t really live with deer and bears and larger animals such as that knocking at their door, and those larger animals can’t live in the environment that human habitation requires. However, thinking of nature as something outside of humanity is not a helpful idea. Even though it’s not perfect, integrating plants and animals into our lives is a good way to bring biodiversity back in a lot of cases. Neighborhood community gardens, wildflower sanctuaries in cities, green roofs, more diversity in lawns, planting things that can survive in the climate they’re planted in without excess watering…
It’s possible to coexist to an extent.
I kind of went on a long rant there that was only tangentially related to the video. Good video! Good game! I just wanted to throw out some ecology knowledge :)
You should check out some videos about Murray Bookchin. He was a philosopher who discussed how humans are a part of nature and can't be fully separated from it (just like a houseplant can't be separated from the soil).
Our cities are _also_ a kind of nature, just like beehives. So humans can either live in conflict with the rest of nature, or in harmony with it.
i came to the comments to see if someone else would be talking about this! more of a criticism on the potential message of the game rather than the video itself i guess, but humans and nature have peacefully coexisted for ages, especially in the form of indigenous people who take great care of the nature around them and the nature in turn provides for them. saying that humans aren't part of nature is just plain wrong - the real issue stems from many people forgetting that fact lately! if we listened to indigenous people more, we could build a society that wouldn't exploit nature and instead live as a part of it
I totally agree with you -- though in the commentary, the question was posed about whether nature and human *endeavors* can coexist -- and I took that to mean tech advancement, megaprojects, etc. We're always so busy and consuming! :D
Not only possible, but necessary to coexist
Terra Nil is a cool premise and a decent puzzle game, but I found its objectives actual wound up working at cross purposes to its message at many points as I used machines to evaporate large swathes of the landscape I had built up to permanently flip the Rain Switch, natures careful equilibrium be damned. I'm gonna copy/paste my comment from the Video Games Are Bad video on it:
A funny wrinkle is that in a lot of cases if you want to fully complete the level - all 6 animal species, all environmental goals achieved, maybe some steam achievements as well - you kind of have to start wrecking shit. In many levels I found myself dumping a bunch of machines down to introduce massive, swinging atmospheric changes, leaving behind giant patches of torched forest or freeze-dried grasslands in a way that seems really antithetical to the message the game is trying to send.
It also made the 'appreciate' button kind of hilarious. "Ah yes, pristine nature. Mostly on fire, criss-crossed by a lattice of petrified canals. So beautiful."
It really exposed what to my mind is one of the major flaws of the game - it's not actually about balancing the environment. One you tick the 'rains start' box, the rains will keep going even if you dry everything out and freeze the entire county. Tundra needs dryness to grow, but once it's there you can inundate the place and it's not affected at all. Glaciers need -10 degrees to form but once they're there, they're there, no matter what you do to the temperature after. To much game, not enough terraforming.
I wonder what the game would be like without this - I suspect that it might be a little more challenging, a bit more deliberate, if you had to think ahead instead of just reaching the point where you have infinite time and resources to yank all the levers in different directions with your crazy machines so all the boxes are ticked.
I hope they examine gameplay dynamics like this in future updates and introduce the careful balancing act you need to implement in more true to form terraforming simulation. I love the game as is, but think this would add an interesting alternate way to play
What the game sorely needs is a "hard mode" that isn't just cost increases. Like needing to manage additional resources, making some decisions irreversible, or starting with elements that you need to protect.
Tldr: Terra nil is a game about making art not puzzle solving or city building.
I think, at least for me. Part of the fun of terra Nil is how open ended it is after a good run. You could burn the world and leave but, you could also build a bunch of extra patchwork biomes, more animals, etc to sculpt the landscape as you see fit. It finally clicked for me on the final normal level where I had a ton of money left over and just decided to keep going, make more land, reclaim more buildings into lush forests, make some more lagoons, etc until I turned the map into this beautiful quilt of warm and cool colors.
My favorite part about that moment was that my reward for doing well wasn't an A+ or a harder difficulty setting. It was making something beautiful of my own choice which I think clicks with the game really well. And I think that's why it's relaxed difficulty and goals are so good. Good play broadens your options.
@@LimeyLassen Yep. That was the central idea of that Video Games Are Bad video I mentioned, he reached the same conclusion as you.
I never had to wreck anything to complete my playthrough and only 1 achievement so far has had me do anything obtuse
I think by boiling it down to a series of mechanics and 'it rains now' triggers, you've optimized so hard that you missed the point. If you play Terra Nil like Factorio or Satisfactory, it will let you, on account of it being very easy, but you reproduce something only marginally better than the wasteland that came before.
Perhaps the game should enforce failure more strongly, but honestly it would be a bit on-the-nose, and they seem to want it to be an accessible and meditative experience
I will agree that the gameplay is not about actually balancing the environment in a ecology simulation, crunchy stats way, and that could be a source of frustration for players, but I still found its "paint the landscape with trees" approach to be very satisfying.
A reverse city builder would be something like a game were you for example might raise a cult inside a prosperous city, and slowly though your influence and corruption bring the city to ruin and watch as the city begans to die, as you take over positions of leadership and on the surface attempt to stop the ruin when in reality your actions explorate it even futher.
This could be fun
Damn it! Now I have a strong desire to play a game that doesn't exist...
@williambraddell8052 French governement is a reverse democracy builder
Reminds me of Plague Inc. in a way.
That still sounds like a city builder with a different theme and not actually reverse mechanics.
The bit about suddenly realising how things in a game your playing fit into a genre you've played a bunch is exactly my experience with the first Horizon Zero Dawn game. The second I climbed one of the long necks and found out they were basically radio towers I completely lost interest in exploring much of the world.
Its happened to me with a couple of Dark souls like games as well
I'm glad you figured it out eventually. As someone who grew up (and out of) with the Assassin Creed franchise by the time Horizon trailers started appearing, it was VERY clear to anyone familiar with AC what to expect.
Sadly, there are still people out there playing both franchises that actually think those series are still "innovators." The mainstream is about as brain dead as it gets. 😂
I agree that horizon falls prey to a lot of bad tropes of open world video games. However, both the combat and the story (and I guess the mild survival element) really did it for me.
@@catStone92 Likewise. The open world is a bit lacking, although there are some things that are fun finding. But mostly you're spoon-fed missions and stuff. But the main draw of the game was always the robot dinosaurs. The combat is fun, and the story does have a relatively unique twist to it.
@@Secret_Takodachi Man AC 2, Brotherhood, and Black flag where the best. AC 2 innovated a Lot of the features, the stuff people are bored by now was cool back in AC 2. Brotherhood is literally just mechanically better AC 2 (not objectively but on a feature - engine level yes). Black flag innovated by far the most out of the games past 2 but to be honest still didn't change a whole lot; being a pirate with great ship driving and a lot of the Caribbean fit with the AC formula.
@@jhonthecat5061 Other than tacking on the pirate stuff, how did Black Flag innovate, exactly?
I think Tunic is a game that plays on prior experience incredibly well. I was comfortable going in from zelda and souls experience but by the end of the game it had taken on an entirely unique identity. Highly recommend 😂
Tunic is fun and more of an anti-anti game. Or a game game. It's a game to find out how the game works, and it plays entirely on expectations, hints, and foreshadowing.
I didn't like Tunic, it seemed boring :\
@@sashabagdasarow497 Seemed in what way? I mean, it's not for everyone. It's for people who like figuring things out themselves, with combat that's a bit of a cross between 2D Zelda and Dark Souls.
@@sashabagdasarow497 death.
@@AnotherDuck In a way that I didn't find it fun brother. I found the gameplay boring in a way that you don't do much and not much is happening. I mean, fights weren't that interesting too!
For context, I'm a life-long gamer (mostly PC) and I'm for sure a lover for figuring stuff myself, but that wasn't the problem with Tunic for me. For me it was the lack of anything actually happening. You may say too slow tempo. And Dark Souls is my most favourite series, I also never understood all the "builds" that people are doing etc. I just played my way, used the armor I liked and so on. I've never seen points for guidance, I can figure it out myself.
Like, what am I supposed to like in Tunic? Combat system? It's pretty simple, not impactful... I did not find it complex or interesting while playing it (I enjoy good combat systems a lot, Sifu, DS, Nioh).
I guess Tunic might've worked for me if it came out 10 years ago. But now it's just straight boring.
I liked Zelda, haven't played the old ones, but the new one was top notch. I do like exploring, but I like exploring an interesting world, not a plain world of low-poly stuff. I did not find the design in Tunic. My eyes aren't caught by anything.
If it was an art-picture I'd just scroll.
7:11 To be fair to Scorn, the "survival horror" thing only lasts for a single area, the Crater. Granted given the short length of the game "a single area" is still like a good 30% of it, but I do think it's a bit unfair to reduce the whole thing down to merely "yet another survival horror game" just because of that
I bought Terra Nil because I've been having an absolute blast playing the alpha of The Wandering Village. It's a very simple city builder (especially at the moment, since it's in pre-release) that forces a lot of creativity in your actual building by giving you a limited amount of space to do it. Terra Nil's small build space does still inspire that drive for optimization--which is a different goal in Terra Nil than in most games, but I still consider optimization just like I would consider placing furniture in the most convenient places in my home to be optimization--in me while being a very different experience, and I love that about it.
Urbek City Builder is another game that makes great use of the "there is not enough land to achieve your objective unless you optimize like crazy" school of map design.
You're making a very interesting point here, that I agree with and have actually been thinking about for quite some time. The first time that I tried the new Hitman trilogy, I didn't like it that much cause I assumed they were classic stealth games in the style of Splinter Cell, which means that I only engaged with the stealth system (which is not that great) and missed 90% of the content of the game, cause it seemed pointless to cause a mess when you can just as easily eliminate targets silently once and never replay the mission. The second time I tried the game, I finally understood that Hitman was not really about stealth but about finding creative ways to interact with the world and take down your targets, and that it's actually kind of an immersive sim. I have now more than 300 hours on the game and I consider it to be one of my favorite games of all time
There's a great video on this very channel called "Why Hitman Isn't A Stealth Game" that's a wonderful deep dive into exactly that concept you just brought up. It's also why Hitman Let's Plays from really good Hitman players like Bigmooney06 on TH-cam are so entertaining to watch, because when you see a player who not only knows what the game really is but has the skill to truly make the most of the game, it can be mind blowing.
@@SimuLord I went to check the video and it turns out that I had already watched it xD
I knew that I had watched a video about Hitman in that style a while ago but I didn't remember it was from this channel. But yeah, that video makes even more sense after watching this one.
And yeah, Hitman is one of those games that has so much content and you can do every piece of it in so many different ways that you can probably put thousands of hours into it without getting bored
@@Anteglio I actually looked it up because I couldn't remember if it was from this channel or Game Maker's Toolkit. Wanted to make sure I was giving credit to the right Brit.
That background experience, rather, a lack thereof, explains a lot about how The Stanley Parable left my folks dumbfounded about the point when I tried to present it to them. Their skill level within games stands on the, look down at the controller to find the buttons stage, so it fits I suppose.
It's interesting that you use footage of Factorio and Satisfactory during your discussion about the city builder genre as I wouldn't consider this city builders at all - but I can kind of see the overlap in retrospect
True, they're incremental games.
@@LimeyLassen I would hardly call them incremental games, that would be like calling Fallout 3 a CRPG like sure it took some inspirations from the CRPG genre but it definitely isn't in that genre anymore.
Yeah i would classify them as Automation games, as they are now a genre on itself imo
The idea of turning a barren city into a garden of Eden actually sounds amazing, it's the same reason I got into universe sandbox, I just loved terraforming planets with different colours of water, atmosphere and plant life. A more complex version of this terraforming simulator would be a hit for me.
On the topic of new gamers not having experience, my mom only got into video games outside of puzzle games recently, and watching her go from struggling with controls for monster hunter rise to overcoming some of the biggest walls that game has to offer that, while easier than previous entries by MY reckoning, is entirely new to her has been....honestly, a truly pleasurable experience.
Funnily enough, the ending at 19:44 didn't work on me as this is the first video of yours I have watched. Good video, by the way!
A few years back when building a new tutorial for a particular MOBA we ran into an issue within labs among potential new players.
A particular feature, showing a "get back!" ring around an objective when it would target you, worked well for explaining the mechanic for most players - including those with very little gaming background - but worked *terribly* for players who had almost exclusively multiplayer FPS backgrounds. Among this group of players, they would almost all read the warning as a "the objective is in danger" instead of a signal to get back. This seemed to be based on the knowledge about how capture points worked in some FPS games.
Unfortunately, the feature worked too well for all the other players and we couldn't find a solution that was accommodating to the FPS crowd. So it shipped like that.
Very much relatedly (and at the same studio and on the same game) the tutorial had been rebuilt a few times over the years. Each time because the prior tutorials slowly became less and less effective as the incoming audience - and their prior game knowledge - changed. The first tutorial got a large jump start from RTS genres, but as fewer players had ever played an RTS started to show up, that became far less effective in terms of other tutorials. And even, eventually, investigation into other shifting control schemes.
It's critical for service based games to update their onboarding as players - and their foundational experiences - change over time. But this is sadly often all too neglected.
i recently played a small game with shooter elements. every fiber of my being wanted to shoot the red boxes to make em blow up, yet i knew from testing that they did not, they were just red boxes and honestly fit the surroundings.
its was... interesting
I've been dealing with my PC crashing lately (I plan to reinstall it to fix it as soon as I'm done with a few things), so that fakeout freeze actually raised my blood pressure. Hit a bit too close to home but well played. Personal experiences do help make unforgettable moments 🤪
omg i about had a heart attack.
lol
I'd already been expecting it once he started bringing the topic up. I'm too used to this kind of foreshadowing for it to be effective on me anymore. But it was still fun to imagine how B:AA players might have reacted on their first playthrough when they weren't expecting that to happen 😂😂
man i hear you, that sound looping felt like cold shower
Now I understand the meaning of «trigger warning» ! xD
I thought it would be interesting to see a game where one player tries to enhance the influence of nature, while the other tries to develop and conquer it in a kind of asymmetric RTS
Terra nil look more like a puzzle box (like the tabletop ones) it's a sandbox ich where you are Givin all the pieces to assemble the picture but not the instructions, so you start with the conners(scrubbers and irrigators) connect the conners(biomes and animals) and go towards the middle till you finish with it
idk if it counts as an anti-game but superliminal really messes with your head. it works differently from any other game even though i don't think it subverts a genre directly. it subverts your understanding of perspective and vision, which is more fundamental than a game genre.
I guess it may count as such! Like, anti-puzzle game that is actually a puzzle game but the one that defies the norms of the genre.
@@sashabagdasarow497 no, it’s a spatial illusion puzzle game, not an anti-puzzle game.
It's just a puzzle game, like Portal
Its still a puzzle game. Just using perspective as a puzzle element, which is a pretty novel idea.
Not sure you've played that much in Oxygen Not Included tbh) Real sustainability IS possible there, more of it - it is kinda the goal. You can't live off exhaustable resources. You need to switch to renewable ones if you want to expand and survive for hundreds of cycles.
This was a point I didn't like in the video, yes. Namedropping ONI only to say you have to expand since it's nearly impossible to be sustainable.
Food can be perfectly sustainable with wild planting, water is sustainable with geysers, and can be purified sustainably by evaporating it or using sustainable filtration mediums, and oxygen is sustainably created from water.
11:00 I think it's worth pointing out that the line between 'subversion' and 'cheating' is razor thin. Players don't want to play with things that break the rules they've agreed to. Subversion only works if you can artfully defy expectation WHILE following the unspoken contract you've made with the player.
A reverse city builder is just hoping on your friend's Minecraft/Terraria server and blowing up everything they've built
A reverse city builder sounds like a game where you're destroying cities.
Terra Nil, you're still building up from nothing, exactly what a regular city-builder does.
Cities of plants and animals rather than of buildings and people.
I think this is why tabletop games are so important. It's a heavy narrative experience that allows YOUR creative juices to flow and can give birth to new ideas that we see today. A good DM is invaluable to the gaming community.
Very good points. I'd just add one solution to the list : creating a completely new genre. Devs tend to mix different genres when they're trying to offer something unexpected, but creating a new type of experience is not impossible by any means. Look at Papers, Please for instance, clearly its gameplay doesn't fit in any box. Of course coming up with such an idea requires a rare amount of both imagination and luck, but among indie games we've seen it happen, and it's always worth the trouble. I think there's a lot we've yet to see.
You may say Papers, Please is a puzzle genre, won't you? Narrative, Puzzle. Easy as that. Of course it's not traditional puzzle game, but that's why we have genres, they are very broad.
The problem with Indie games that "invent a new genre" is that they seem to only have that one mechanic it's praised for. Papers, Please is a great game! But it only has that one single mechanic to offer.
@@sashabagdasarow497 Not really. There's no puzzle to solve. I'd say it's closer to adventure games like murder mystery games, where you need to choose who did it at the end. Except that you don't need to find clues, but simply verify info, and failure is allowed if not encouraged. Obviously we can always find similarities to other games but it's still a completely unique concept.
And I disagree that it's a one-trick pony. The gameplay is completely tied to its setting, with unexpected dialogues and events, even new gameplay elements that show up after some levels. And there are multiple endings based on different ways of playing. It's a pretty deep game overall that fully explores its concept in my opinion.
It's an RPG. You are playing the role of the main character and taking decisions in his place.
@@joaolucaslages7792 It's absolutely not an RPG. 😆 There is no experience points and leveling system, nor combats, or anything found in an RPG except for the dialogues.
If you really want to place it into a genre, it's a simulation game. But then it's the only simulation game of its kind, which still proves the point.
@@timpize8733 SHouldn't a roleplaying game be defined by role playing and not those systems tho?
The use of "reverse" instead of "anti" is deliberate. The marketing team probably wants to convey the sense that Terranil is the 'aftermath' of your favorite play of factorio or Sims City or Banished. It doesn't want to go against the concept of progress of civilization, it just wants to convey a sense of cleaning up after ourselves when we don't need to destroy nature anymore. The phrase "anti-city builder" conveys that it is against the concept of city building. I really think "reverse city builder" in essence is the best terminology they could have used.
The more games I played and the more movies I watched, the more "suspension of disbelief" turned into an "agreement of suspension of disbelief" - it's hard to not see the mechanics at play, but now you can also appreciate the beauty of said mechanics and the underlying design.
You might be headed down the road of media analysis. Where the love of the mechanics and underlying design itself becomes the motivation and belief is no longer suspended but the experience is still enjoyed immensely.
Love that you have a clip of Wandersong in there, it’s such a fantastic little gem
Genre subversion is a really interesting topic, amazing video! Honestly besides "Anti-" games I like it more when traditional games subvert your expectations of genre tropes like "Yeah what's that? you found a chest in a secret room of the dungeon because you backtracked and explored? sure, it's your reward for your exploration endeavors... would be a shame it's actually a trap and there's a secret boss after you open the chest... haha jk... unless"
It's not the same I'm aware, but when I first played dark souls and found a secret room, and then hitted the chest in the secret room only to find an ENTIRE AREA BEHIND IT! I just couldn't stop laughing at that one.
A secret boss is a fine reward in my eyes!
Picking up the cup in DS3.
I didn't expect it to be a reward, but I really didn't know what to expect either.
wow a mimic very expectation subverting and not been done a hundred times before
@@Binzob not a mimic, a boss
The "PC crash" at 11:50 got me. I've spent all week fixing my PC after having many issues, and JUST got it working. I know the scene from the Batman game, I should have known that you would do it too, but hearing that crashing sound just made my heart sink. Well played!
Also, awesome video!
God yeah I've been having blue screen issues recently and it got me good too. The timing on the stuttering was spot on
That was a 22 minute video on how OP doesn't like "reverse" and suggests "anti" instead. Those words are synonyms for a reason.
Except that 'Anti' is possibly worse, since it has negative connotations, so is unlikely to be favoured by a good marketing department, hence use of 'reverse'.
I always thought of it simply as a puzzle game it's not a city builder at all since it doesn't have any interlocking mechanics that would make the game complex enough for it to be called a city builder imo
Crazy how this comes out as soon as terra nil goes on sale
Not gonna lie to you. The entire premise of this video seems like it's just semantics.
Yeah, Terra Nil isn’t a good game, and anyone who tells you so is making excuses.
I see things coming in games not because I've played a ton of them, but because I looked up guides and tips and tricks on mechanics before I even bought the game most of the time.
For me this makes the sense of wonder in games not come from know what a game can do, but instead learning what a game cannot do; and pushing what can be done beyond what most people think is impossible, and sometimes a game still subverts my expectations mechanically due to how systems interact not lining up the way I expected (and often times not how the developers intended either)
I was just looking for a small, one plate Terra Nil Review to go, stumbled upon this video and got a three-course-meal and then some. Great video, did subscribe!
I had this video randomly recommended to me and I'm so pleased that I checked this video out! Your thoughts are excellently laid out and the care and time put into this video is obvious. Definitely subscribing!
This video spoke close to home for me. Not only I had the same urge to replay my favorite citybuilders after playing Terra Nil, but you made me realize the exact reason why I've been feeling bored about my favorite media lately, describing it in terms I never thought before. Nailed it!
The highlight of scorn isn't its similarities to the survival horror genre. The art and story makes it worth a play through without a doubt. plus you get a yummy smoothie near the end
9:48 Having "expectations subverted" these days is just code for "bad writing".
"oh you thought my coffee shop would give you coffee ? well guess what ? it's a cup of shit, expectations subverted ! im such a genius."
Damn, the editing was top notch, really nice subtle links between what Adam was saying and the visuals!
I love that you squeezed a Duty Calls clip in there
Editing is top miku as usual.
I don't think either "reverse" or "anti" fits Terra Nil. Mechanically, it's a puzzle, or more accurately a problem solving game. It's sort of like how scenarios work in some city builders, where you have a limited time and/or money to solve a particular problem. It's entirely within that expectation, with the only difference is that it's skinned with nature instead of city buildings.
Many of the other "anti" games fit within normal contexts as well. Just a standard games with some deviations, like Darkest Dungeon. It's a roguelike dungeon crawler with expendable characters and an insanity mechanic. Not too groundbreaking. I think deliberately hard-controlled or obtuse games fit the "anti" label more, like QWOP. Deliberately frustrating like Souls games or Getting Over It are just that - games that intend to challenge patience as well as skill, but otherwise normal games. The latter more about skill and the former more about pattern recognition.
You don't have to play something that challenges the way you think about a certain genre to appreciate what you appreciate about it. You just have to actually think about it.
Also, morality in video games isn't anything new.
Also also, mimics are my favourite enemies overall in gaming. From DnD to Trials of Mana to Final Fantasy.
Agreed! Also, part of the commentary in the video is on Terra Nil not being efficiency oriented, but you’re absolutely still aiming for efficiency, it’s just pure resource efficiency as opposed to efficiency in service of productivity (The example that came to me was that of a tower defense game vs a factorio factory)
*I’ve only played the original game jam(?) version from back when there were no public plans to expand the game as far as I’m aware. Someone else in the comments was saying it’s more of an art making game, which makes more sense. It’s only a puzzle game mechanically, not in spirit ideally. Again, ideally, no idea how well it pulls that off.
@@vdub6343 Whether it's a puzzle or art game depends in my opinion on the difficulty. If it's about the art, it should be less difficult, since that allows for less strict optimisation, which means more room to express yourself.
The thing is, the term "Anti-" is always used in relation to previous experiences. Of course when once unconventional mechanics become commonplace you would stop seeing a game as subversive, but that only works in hindsight. You can't objectively say something did or did not recontextualize the genre from todays context that already has the change incorporated. The only way you can really judge the Anti-ness of a game is by having played it at the time of release and remembering whether or not it was defying the highly subjective expectations that were formed by your individual experiences at the time. And in that, you can only really speak for yourself.
@@marzipancutter8144 Yeah, I only judge them by what I thought of them at the time (like at the jam release date for TN), since I can't judge by anyone else's opinion.
I'm old enough to have more experience than most, though, so I've seen enough progress in the gaming field to not consider new development as equally groundbreaking as someone newer to the area.
The homogenization bit was a lot of my feeling going from Superliminal to Manifold Garden to Antichamber to Maquette
Tried The Stanley Parable afterwards, and it became one of my favorite games of all time
Maquette was boring though. Except the parts where you actually interact with the stuff
This is such a brilliant video. I'll consider this so much more now. Thank you soooo, sooo much
really brilliantly written script!! casual, tongue-in-cheek but not excessively, with clever lines. well done :)
It's impressing to see your video going from showing Terra Nil to explaining why so many consider the "Everything was better years ago" in the Media world. And I can totally agree as I noted this myself some years ago and started to discover games way outside of my normal preferences. One of them was actually Frostpunk and this is a pure Masterpiece to me.
Let's discover your other videos ;)
12:00 doesn't really work on mobile devices since they don't typically bluescreen to windows after a glitch
I'm never going to give this channel up. It never lets me down.
Absolutely lovely script, as always, Adam! And I loved the background images at around 9:13!
Did not expect to see Bowser’s Inside Story here, but always pleasantly surprised. One of my all-time favorite videogames, and an amazing Mario game
pretty sure thats superstar saga
Cant tell you how grateful I am for the list of games shown in the video. Incredible analysis of something that many of us wouldnt even consider.
for a really unique city builder you should try "against the storm" it manages to merge city building and rougelite elements
Im really loving terra nil, in spite of all of my expirience with city builders, factorio, tycoon games, and of course the desert storm sequels. Personally i think terra nil's genius outshines things like city skylines and factorio by exchanging stratigical skill with satisfaction.
Its satisfying watching bioms pop up, find animals, bring rain and most of all, remember the wasteland that you turned into a thriving ecosystem.
"Terra nil claims to be a reverse citybuilder. But when I compare it to other citybuilders, it seems like the complete reverse?? How odd!"
Terra Nil is a puzzler, a fantastic looking, extremely zenlike puzzler
The editing here is fantastic!
Back when I played the demo, which was also billed as a reverse city builder, I only played for a few minute before realizing that it has basically nothing to do with city building. It's just a pretty puzzle game that you could mistake for at city builder at first glance. It was quite enjoyable anyway 🙂
It was a revelation that something billed as a reverse city builder wasn't a citybuilder? lol
I know right? "This game that claims to be about revitalizing the landscape instead of destroying it for devastating urban planning didn't let me dominate the landscape and turn it into a concrete jungle? How dare!"
Did you like...watch the video? Or do you just leave comments based on the title of videos?
@@iamjustkiwi made it five minutes in, hit the narrator blatantly misunderstanding what "reverse city builder" means and stopped watching. Maybe it gets better and comes to a point, but I'm not going to slog through an annoying first act to get to the meat. Just write the first act to not suck.
@@synthgal1090 so thats a no
@@iamjustkiwi No, I get that it's an interesting video etc. but, a few minutes in, he presents the idea that it's not a city builder, it's an anti-citybuilder, as some revelation, which it obviously isn't
2:35 IS THAT LOSS?
at 7:26 my exact thoughts were ''oh yeah, this video is about Terra Nil''
The chests in Maximo were the first use of the “loot that isn’t actually loot and will attack you” I encountered as a kid.
from when I first saw Terra Nil announced months ago, I thought it was a puzzle game where instead of a timer you have a resource amount. Its kinda like a clock that ticks down and up at the rate that YOU play. That's what got me interested.
This gave me a really interesting idea for a concept game that actually isn't a city builder. I'll have to do some research
It got me thinking how I've been on a big kick lately playing games that are basically all just mashups of Minecraft, Harvest Moon, and Animal Crossing in some combination (Stardew Valley, the My Time games, Dinkum, Sun Haven...) and I'd love to see a game that does for them what Terra Nil does for city builders.
11:54 HA! That won't work on me because I have 3 monitors and they all blue-screen at the same time!
Also, the BSOD looks very different nowadays, though you might've picked that one on purpose.
I was only listening to the video. I was genuinely terrified.
Thank you for all the recommendations of things to check out!
Rimworld kind of did that for me. Most colony sims have you optimizing and expanding against nature or with some limitation, like being on a spaceship or in an asteroid. In rimworld it’s more realistic, where you can cut down trees and burn coal without immediately killing everyone, it feels good playing a colony sim with such an open world
Great video as always, I really liked your point about how subverting expectations both makes entertaining games and is crucial for making media that effectively critiques/questions our assumptions/beliefs. On the note of questioning assumptions, I would suggest that it is only our current (extractive) mode of human endeavor that is incompatible with nature, and there are still people living/striving to live in mutually beneficial relationships with land. Leanne Betasamosake Simpson's "As We Have Always Done" and Robin Wall Kimmerer's "Braiding Sweetgrass" are both great books if you're curious.
Yes. That humans act as a keystone specie in many biomes is one of the things this game misses.
This made me realise why I love certain RTS's a lot. Tooth and tail/ kingdom both subvert a lot about rts and defo made me love the genre more
Your best video yet! Great work!
Weird that you casually unpersoned Notch like that but okay.
While I'm not sure if Outer wilds is an Anti game, I've recently seen a youtuber make a set of 2 videos on that game with different perspectives in each. In the first he expressed a dislike for the game and confusion on why people praise it so much, for him to come around in the second one after a comment induced perspective shift. Turns out he was expecting a progression system, more clear indications of what to do and upgrades to his kit, all things that are rather common in triple a games. He expressed a newfound appreciation of the game and lamented the mindset he went into the game with. Then he played Echoes of the eye (watched him play it) and with this new perspective managed to get an amazing experience out of it. Still had a bit of a speedrunners mindset but still.
Before watching the video, I think Terra Nil is more a crossover between a puzzle game and a city builder, to the likes of Islanders, Dorf Romantik, Block'Hood and the upcoming Pile Up!, where the gameplay lies in placing the correct tile at the correct place at the right moment, than a city builder where the gameplay lies in the complexity of keeping a proper self-sustaining network that keeps feeding on itself over time.
In a proper city builder, every building keeps feeding into the general health of the city over time way after it's been placed, but in those games I mentioned, their impact stops after they've been placed or after they've been surrounded directly by other buildings, hence the feeling of puzzle tiles rather than proper buildings interacting with a whole city.
That doesn't mean Terra Nil is a shallow game or that it fails at showcasing its environmental theme, but I do believe it fails at embedding the concept of sustainability and the interdependence of the ecosystem in its gameplay. The simplification of the economy into three metrics - temperature, humidity and "leaf points" turn this game more into a min-max puzzle game rather than an actual environmental reclamation planner.
Kinda reminds me of Dead Cells being initially advertised as a "Metroidvania Rogue-lite", when at its core, it's only really a Rogue-lite, that happens to have a couple of abilities that open up navigation options, guarded behind specific routes that you unlock permanently after a couple runs.
To be fair both Dead Cells and Terra Nil are really good in their respective "actual" genres, but they are very different from the genres they're advertised as.
Good stuff! Thanks for the vid!
My guy just pulled some name out of his ass for minecraft's developer like bruh
"It's not a reverse city builder because it's not a city builder. It's a [insert synonym for reverse city builder] which I will now define as exactly what I would describe as reverse city builder." This entire premise is centered around your arbitrary definition of "reverse" vs "anti" which... yeah.
If you do want a game that feels like Terra Nil but with more of the strategy of a city builder I’d definitely recommend checking out Blockhood, it’s all about creating sustainable ecosystems too but there’s a lot more focus on managing and balancing all the different resources and creating a self-sustaining system, it’s a good cross between the Terra Nil style and a more traditional city builder I think
The clips of Wandersong made the video for me. That game is so beautiful and slept on
Does terra nil really subvert the optimization of normal city builder games? I feel like it still has the feeling of optimizing and planning, even if the thematic message is different.
I agree with you, I really can't see how Terra Nil is comparable to games that use your preconceived knowledge against you to trick you, nor do I see a precise intent from the developers to subvert a trope. The only thing that I agree with this video is that Terra Nil isn't quite a reverse city builder in a mechanical sense. I think the only key difference between Terra Nil and other similar games is its relaxing nature. While city builders tend to constantly keep your mind focused on all the dangers you might incur if you don't manage everything properly, Terra Nil only really gives you one thing to worry about which is to not go "bankrupt" with your green resources. Everything else plays more like a puzzle than an actual game, it's just something that you need to solve rather than to beat and conquer.
In this video: Adam Millard fails to understand what Reverse means, and instead expects the same thing. Is confused upon receiving the reverse thing.
This video gave me a cool idea for a game where you're actually the boss monster fighting the heroes and the story goes into how monster killing is actually hurting the planets echo system or something like that. The game play would have you playing in the same way a boss would with deploying different attack patterns that the heroes then try to figure out and exploit. I'm not a developer but if an indie developer reads this and think it's a cool idea feel free to steal it haha. Also if a game like this already exists feel free to recommend it to me!
“It’s not a reverse city builder, it’s actually a reverse city builder instead”
The distinction between reverse and anti seems a bit arbitrary, yes it's the opposite of a city builder. That's what reverse means.
^^
But Terra Nil isn't. You just build a city of plants and animals instead of buildings and people.
"This game does a lot of things opposite from how a city builder would, therefore it's not a reverse city builder"
Why do you expect a REVERSE city builder to play at all like a city builder? Reverse tower defenses aren't about towers or defense, that's what the word "reverse" means
This was a great video. Second video I've watched from you which seems surprising given the rest of the content I costume on yt. The video did a really good job putting to in very clear words what games I really enjoy and the reason for it.
Anyway, going to be sharing this around. Hopefully the yt algo does you better because it's clearly not meeting where your videos standards.
Your content is very educational. Even though I am not a game designer, I still enjoy very much. The only problem is the effect that you have made, i.e. buzzzzz glitch sound, gave me a mini-heart attack. I would like to give a feedback that please lower your sound effects if not remove them at all. Maybe it's my fault that I'm very sensitive to horror and seeing jumpcare that creator shows when mentioning that thought, or hearing things like horror sound or very loud and long bzzzz like I mentioned. Normally I'd add videos to my playlist for rewatching, but videos like this I had to mark out of the list even if it's good. I applogize if this is like a rant. But I'm really not a troll and want to give a genuine feedback.
*"There are only so many roundabouts you can build before you start going round in circles"*
I see what you did there... 😉
Once again you've explained things in a way I needed to hear! Games aren't getting worse, I'm just getting tired of reused tropes! Thank you for your brilliant videos ❤️
Reminds me of when I tried out Final Fantasy 12. I was curious about it and when the prologue had me battling enemies alongside like 5-6 allies, I was completely sold on the idea of using the "set up tactics for the AI to execute automatically" system to lead small armies.
Theeen the game restricted me to the usual 3 characters. It's not bad, but it's... not what I wanted. Automating AI is only interesting if there's enough AIs around that you can't micromanage them, otherwise you might as well just play them yourself!
‘The way you approach a game is informed by the past games youve played’ also applies to films, Ive noticed. Like if someone goes to watch a horror movie expecting to get jumpscared by a monster may leave dissatisfied or even bored if it was actually psychological, and the other way around. Also, with how current games assume you already understand controls and narrative beats, it’s interesting to see games walk the line of holding the player’s hand and leaving them completely lost. It makes me wonder how tutorials have changed over time and when instructions like ‘use arrow keys to move, space to jump, this means that, etc’ got phased out. Like how has the iconic tutorial ‘quest’ that introduces you to the game evolved over time?
Imagine you create the world's most popular game, but get censored with Hatsune Miku because no one wants to credit your accomplishment due to some twitter shitposts.