Metagaming at Larry's Table.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ธ.ค. 2023
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Meta isn't allowed at Larry's Table. RPG's Dnd D&d (not really but TTRPG somehow doesn't exist as coherent category)
Music:
The Inquiry - Shahead Mostafafar
Ablaze - Kevin Graham - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
(I generally don't do this but the tags are messing up the description button on some phones for this video.)
Paid sponsor for this was www.patreon.com/czepeku (there is a link in the description too if you can open it)
And the music was
The Inquiry - Shahead Mostafafar and Ablaze - Kevin Graham
I do something similar, but generally all I have to do to prevent metagaming is take the player who's in a sequence like this into a separate room so the other players can't hear. Then I come back and tell the other players what they see.
I love that zeebashew is going to outlive Dungeons and Dragons. Well, it's actually really sad, but there is a bittersweetness to it.
Can I ask what system this is supposed to be based on?
Yes also very curious what system it was they were playing I'm desperate for a forged in the dark fantasy
Will there be a Video of you explaining Metagaming and how this affects the game for the DM?
I do appreciate that Larry didnt just say "you have no reason to run to his room." He instead asked why. "Why would you do this thing in this situation." Both informing him of his metagaming but also leaving him open to the action if he found a reason
It would’ve been so easy to just go “Well, my character, spooked by the storm, decides to go regroup with his fellow party members
@@Brent-jj6qi That was basically his reasoning, plus the fact that the party member he was checking on wasn't in the best shape.
also how, while still having a harsh punishment in place, there's still enough leeway added to the event that would've prevented most of the damage if the person metagaming didn't immediately go to kill the "shapeshifter"
Like, obviously it's represented as a small joke animation, but it's clear that Larry had just established an entire scene and scenario that he wanted all the party members to take part in for the session, and for the story to work, the shapeshifter would need to have disguised itself as someone in the group and infiltrated the party during the storm. If it died before that could really get going, who knows how badly it would've thrown off the entire session.
If the player found a reason to immediately rush to his friend during the storm? A little odd, but could be worked with to continue the shapeshifter story. Yet the fact that they took this, barely looked around the room before declaring his friend a shapeshifter, and stacking every single buff and ability to instantly kill him without giving them even a second to explain what's going on? Well that would make absolutely zero narrative sense outside of metagaming, and serves little purpose to the party outside of skipping an entire storyline that took who knows how long to get to.
While it's a hasty fix that has severe consequences, making the first shapeshifter scene a dream was a good way to both keep the story in tact for the rest of the party, and make the metagamer really regret being so trigger happy about a situation their character should've had no knowledge of.
cruel but fair DMing
And I like that the player actually did scrape together a fairly understandable reason for going straight there. "Spooky bullshit is happening when my friend is hurt" is a nice reason to check up on him.
if it werent for the innocent player's character taking the punishment, i would actually really applaud the GM's whole approach to this.
Yeah, if he survived the fall, it would have been perfect
Hard same. I know players like this and always gets under my skin that they never recognize it as metagaming even when I point it out. As if somehow, I'm the bad guy for doing so.
I can't say this matches my DM style given that he publicly announced crap was going on expecting people not to act up at all is a bit silly.
I probably would have given him the rushing to his friend's room, it's good storytelling even if the second players in character motivations aren't completely clear.
It's that I already know your a shapeshifter bit where I would have given him a hard stop, like get up from my DM's chair and point the finger of shame at him well calling him a dirty-meta-gamer.
The meta gamer choose to go for the insta kill using a bunch of abilities, he could've tried a non lethal approach as the player knew that there was a shapeshifter somewhere.
This is the barbarian's fault, not the GM's.
Decent idea to punish a player clearly using outside knowledge to affect character decisions, but the only one being punished is the other guy who played fairly. The metagamer just feels dumb while the other player loses a character they grew attached to.
Definitive Larry moment.
Yea, I wouldn't have played along with the DM here, because it would have been me that get's punished. If anything, the DM should have made the off-screen encounter note based right off the bat, because that way the position actually creates surprises for all people involved.
Collective punishment is a core element of party dynamics from the moment the ink stains the paper. Often, a GM doesn't even have to dish it out. Happens organically, due to selfish decisions, like a three stooges short.
God damned it, Larry
Didn't they restart the encounter at the end?
He made the note as soon as the barbarian was heading to the guys room, I don't think this is an instance of Larry changing what he was doing but instead he is just not rewarding the metagaming by telling him what is actually happening.
Sure Zee gets punished but he is being punished because the DM did not intervene to protect him, not because the DM changed something to get him killed.
W Larry
L Metagamer
The reason why being that he metagamed going in there and continue to try to metagame to find the shapeshifter by assuming there was one to find at all
This is both a Larry moment and a barbarian moment.
Barbarian might be dumb because dump int. Bed's empty (as precised) no body lying around, only a shape shifter looking like an ally... That's too dumb even for a barb. First question should be are you safe? First action could be to look around for signs of struggle. But not this...
While I do see Larry at fault for not shutting this down, and allowing the scene to play out more organically, the blame definitely falls more on the player for trying to rush this through obvious metagaming. I feel if the scene were to play out, without the other player's interruption, either this would've been explained, or Larry wouldn't have come up with the punishment for the player's hasty actions through metagaming. Even gave Zee the chance to defend himself, whether he was the shapeshifter or not. I think, while Larry very clearly changed the scene to punish the player if things went askew, he still gave the chance for things to turn out alright, and played out the scene fairly, to the best of his abilities.
A lot of commenters saying how unfair this was to Zee. That's what makes this such a Larry moment!
@@FoxyBlack2247 see most of it was fine up until he pushed the guy out the window. like he had no real indication that it was a shapeshifter...maybe if he saw there was another zee in the bed then sure...but for all intense and purposes...
Magestorms are such awesome concepts that aren't used enough.
EDIT: A few people seem to be unfamiliar with the concept, so for future readers:
A magestorm is whatever you want it to be. However magic works in your world, chances are it gets violent sometimes. Well, what if that violence was weather.
Perhaps it's a mobile roiling wild magic zone, bursting with scintillating wind elementals, and eldritch lightning. Perhaps it is the result of a truly hacked-off wizard, churning up a wrathful storm mixed with unnatural forces. Maybe it's the furious echo of an ancient battle between mageocratic empires.
Point is, it's magic and it's storm. If that isn't an epic idea, I don't know what to tell you.
what are they exactly? They sound familiar but I dont remember
what is a magestorm?
What is a magestorm?
Do you mind sharing what a magestorm is?
A magestorm can change slightly based on the system the game is being played in, and how the DM wishes to describe it…
But it is some sort of storm (Rain, Thunder, Lightning, Snow), where magic is surging so aggressively, to cause a magical storm of magical energy to be released onto the environment,
This causes the magical energy to mimic weather patterns like the ones listed in parentheses, but magical in nature.
I think there is an untapped market for DM-Larry animated shorts. It was fun seeing a scenario led by a chaotic-neutral DM who isn't concerned with the repercussions of sacrificing one player-character in order to punish another Player.
New alignment just dropped - chaotic larry
No one fucking asked
@@tylornelson2858 You mean Larry Neutral.
Not to start an alignment debate, but this hits home to me as Lawful Neutral. He essentially sets a trap for a "rule breaker".
@@heronator Agreed, honestly. They just aren't rules printed in any book after 2010.
“Shit….”
That was a perfect “are you sure?“ moment
"So you attack Tambor?"
A friend's dad had a legendary story along these lines. The thief knew to steal from someone for meta reasons. It was on that day the world discovered the elusive phenomenon of the gods known as "cave lightning" and it can be incredibly fatal. So fatal some say that even resurrection cannot bring them back.
That middle of a clear sky day, completely out of nowhere, indoor lightning can really be a killer. I hope he recovers!
@@DeadKing101 No one fully understands it. Some say it's just a myth to get children to behave...but we know better though. We trust that wise and learned sage for he has walked these planes many decades. He claims you can sense it coming. A person about to be smote will start acting off, in ways that make no sense as if they know their time is up.
My group called it blue lightning, only wielded by the gods (and annoyed DMs). If it struck you, you would take damage equal to twice your current HP.
@@eneekmot at 1 current health, I take two damage and use half orc relentless endurance to give the DM the bird lmao
Sounds like those bunker busting, homing Bovine of the Gods my deities like to hurl at people.
Ahh the old "I run into the room!" moment.
Probably the most classic of all metagaming moments across the history of RPGs.
What people are missing is that Larry and Zee have a friendship built on disrespect. They love insulting each other, inconveniencing each other, and taking the piss out of each other. This scenario was 100% fine--for them. This is critical. This was something that they could only do to each other. If you do this at your table, make sure it's someone you have that relationship with.
Yeah do people not remember the whole "superstition thing" about dice? Or the "mending" sketch where it ends with Larry saying all his answers were wrong, that it was a fake list, and that he's ruining the game and teaching others to ruin the game? This is par for the course for them.
I love this XD
Zee (the cartoon character player Zee, that is) really doesn't seem to think any of this is funny. Real-life Zee does a great job animating his characters, and it's pretty clear that the character is not taking this situation the way OP describes.
I read toon-character Zee and Larry's relationship differently. The subtext in the videos is not that of friends messing with one another, like the McGenk brothers do. Character Zee seems to feel committed to Larry despite not enjoying it, while Larry has grown over time to despise Character Zee, and at this point is just out to get him. I'm sure, though, that if Larry was confronted about this, he'd absolutely use OP's read as his defense, while verbally attacking whoever was confronting him.
Larry owns the local game store, which seems to mean the other players are stuck with him, or think they are. I've met several real-life Larrys, one even owned a game store. They're a lot less funny in real life.
It feels like real-life Zee has built this as character development over time, I think maybe they used to have a more "disrespectful friend" relationship, but it slowly goes sour, video after video. Maybe real-life Zee has a plan for this...
Larry owns the LGS? I thought Zee owned it and larry was just a rusted on wargamer in the back room?
@@VinemaplePretty sure Zee is the store owner, as he’s always the one behind the counter.
Man, this would just destroy most tables. if I killed off a player because another was metagaming, my players would be furious.
Wouldn't it just be letting a player kill another?
Please don't let your players kill other players at your table; the police always gets involved and there are often jailtime involved. Try to at least only kill of characters if at all possible.
On a technicality, sure.@@jacevicki
You didn't kill anyone. The players did. In that world. The lights went out the barbarian charged into his friends room and murdered him on a hunch. His friend just had a bad dream got woken up and murdered.
@wishiwerespecial Mechanicaly you are correct, however the DM is the final be all end all of story. I'd have pulled a trick making the barb think they killed them, but have them survive by grabbing a branch. Then you get that drama in character rather than in person when the players start arguing and derail the whole game.
Seems the obvious solution here, at the end of the scenes when the player who metagamed and thus killed his friend has stewed in what he just did for a bit, is to have him wake from a nightmare too, having dozed of in the library, and to knock of with the excessive metagaming before he ruins the game for anyone. Helps to have a DM you trust not to kill your character to teach another a lesson too.
Good way to teach the metagamer there's no downside to metagaming
@@TheRealXartaX do you prefer the solution that the metagamer doesn't receive downside but instead the other players are punished? i.e, the scenario of the video
@@TheRealXartaX Because killing the character of the player clearly not having fun at your table because someone metagamed to help them is great for player retention, lol
I get your point but as a player I would be ok with the GM. It takes a lot away from the game having some play with Out of character knowledge.
@@TheRealXartaX I would actually have to disagree with that. Just because there wasn't a downside in that interaction doesn't mean the metagamer won't learn that consequences can arise from their behavior. If they're smart, and introspective, that interaction will make them realize that making assumptions about what the GM is doing is risky, because their assumptions can be wrong. If it can happen here, where nothing ended up happening, it can happen again when actual important repercussions are at stake.
Though ultimately, the most important thing to do is to communicate with the player in person and not in-game, that the table doesn't like what they're doing, and would appreciate it if they stopped.
*_With the rise of dawn, the Magestorm passes, and each of you awakens from your own harrowing nightmare. You all startle awake, panicked and drenched in sweat, and as you gather yourselves you slowly realize that the dreams you had were not your own, and that you are not in your own rooms anymore..._*
_"Alright, now comes the fun part.. Everyone? _*_Swap character sheets..."_*
Ohhhhhh that's such a good idea!
That's a great way to not fix a story
@@realdragon It's a usage 'It was all just a dream' trope that the DM could use to screw with their players and out them for metagaming, AND it could be used as a complication to either punish metagaming or throw the players off their game.
@@Brutalyte616 It's also shitty story telling. Also also people here would say it's not punishing metagamer because there would be literally no consequences to it
@@realdragon So having the DM forcing you to use somebody else's character sheet wouldn't be considered a punishment in any circumstance? And having a player accidentally killing another player's character because of a misunderstanding caused by an attempt to use meta knowledge is somehow fair or fun for the player whose character got killed? I don't think so, and I'd rather spin the situation so that everyone is still having fun.
A DM is a storyteller, but they're also a referee making sure that all the players are following the rules and, most importantly, HAVING FUN PLAYING THE GAME. If you're already throwing around dream and nightmare sequences like Larry/Zee is doing here, then you're focusing on an event that may last a session or two and doesn't necessarily contribute to the larger narrative, but it can, and the narrative and storytelling is merely the vessel by which the players may interact and engage with the world the DM is creating.
Case in point? Even if the dream sequence itself resulted in nothing significant happening and no players killed one another, the experience can affect the players' mindsets and by extension that of their characters, having the players swap character sheets and be forced to play other characters for a time creates a deliberately awkward situation where they may not be able to play optimally and have to learn new playstyles, and a DM can use that as an excuse to throw less difficult encounters at their players and compel them to seek out a means to deal with their current body-swapping predicament as a plot hook to follow through with something else.
Just because one person can't make an event interesting or relevant to the story doesn't make it bad, it just demonstrates a lack of imagination, resourcefulness and improvisational skills on their part.
_"Due to the Magestorm, you become an undead. You are dedicated to getting revenge against your unprovoked betrayer."_
Next Note - not shown to the Barbarian player.
Revenants are underutilized undead.
Yes because killing the barbarian character in revenge sure isn't going to cause any kind of hard feelings what a great fix!
@@tuomasronnberg5244 Your sarcasm is misplaced. We lack adequate context to assume there would be hard feelings. A mature, established group of like-minded friends could turn this into a legitimate course of action that everyone is happy with.
@@Leaky_Spigotright! Do all these people play with randoms or do their friends suck so hard that you cant do anything fun
This is almost perfectly executed by Larry.
Questions the player about actions taken that initially are meta-gaming but allows it when a reasonable explanation is given.
Then flips the scenario around when the player continues to meta-game.
The only downside, as some others have pointed out, is that Zee pays the price for someone else meta-gaming.
*R.I.P. Tamber.*
Eh, death ain't too big of a deal in even midgame dnd if they act fast
Though i can't tell what levels they are
@@Sarah12471 They're playing Larrymoore, not D&D.
Larry gifts cold chills like Santa Clause gifts children's toys. Merry Christmas
Terms and conditions apply
I can feel the "old school" vibe from this. I love your animations and your stories...as well as the lessons
A long video from Zee! What a thing to wake up to on a saturday!
This is a long video
@@colebrockman9579 indeed it is
On one hand, its a setup.
On the other, Hester did on one hand, some good metagaming (Aka, get some logical enough reason to do what he does), but really dropped the ball when attacking the 'Shapeshifter'. At that point reasoning was out of the window (pun intended).
My rule of thumb is 'Would it be okay to happen in a book?'. Cause that feels like a good enough baseline for reasonable yet coincidental.
Yeah, seems like he could have asked a question only a comrade would know.
@reio4641 it kinda does. Clearly something creepy is going on. (Characters are allowed to be genre savvy) first rule of horror situations, check on the sick/injured. However I do agree that there should have been an out of character "can I do an insight check" or as mentioned "are you ok?" Type interaction...
@reio4641 Of course, a friend storming into the room right after something has happened is very excusable in writing. Its the kind of thing that happens a lot. Especially being the excuse was passable. A bit flimsy, sure, but 'This situation feels dangerous, lets try and be in groups.' feels good enough.
@reio4641 It's a bit sus, but they're in an open building and are adventurers in the middle of a weird magic storm and have people who want to kill them. A fit of paranoia is at least outwardly plausible.
I think Larry was fair in his ruling of "Ok, but you're on notice" which, in a more aware player, should be a hint to slow down on it for a while
This is an excellent rule of thumb! As long as you're actually trying to run an enjoyable game, and not punish one of your players for disagreeing with you about the Discourse.
hard lesson that you can't go off of other peoples IRL information, unless your character saw it or had the time for it to be communicated to them, it's role playing
Even harder lesson: trying to give information to the players that is not known to the characters and expecting them not to act on that information is an incredibly stupid idea. Whether intentionally or not, they *will* act on it or change their decision to things they wouldn't do if this information wasn't known.
If you want to have a character get switched with a shapeshifter, *never tell the rest of the party.* Even if they don't react to it immediately, they will absolutely change their attitude towards that character.
@@wanderer7965 Wouldn't they realize the instant the DM starts speaking for the replaced character, instead of the PC?
@@PhoenixBlazer39
Absolutely! That's usually why you'd have the dm tell the player of said character in question about it without letting the other players know.
Problem is, you now have a player playing a shapeshifter that's trying to act as that player's character: The meta knowledge will fuck it all up from the get go.
That's why I'm of the stance that, while an interesting concept, changing a character with a shapeshifter is way too prone to falling apart by the semes to be worth the effort as a DM *and* as the player of said character.
This is one of those moments that causes no end of grief at the table in the moment,then becomes a War Story the player tells for years. Good or bad, they WILL remember this one.
God, your animations are so good. Every time you take us into a world or scene like this, I'm inspired
I always assumed metagaming arguments between larry and his players would play out like 2 hour debates
I legit think this is could be a great move depending on what follows. It was just established that this is scene is full of terrifying dream sequences due to the magestorm, so you could turn this moment into something that is a part of that, while giving the metagaming player a very memorable sinking feeling about taking extreme action based on metagame knowledge. I know I'd remember the remorse of believing that I offed my friend's character.
If thunder rattled my castle so hard all the lights went out, I'd also go directly to the fighter
I had to do this once because of how much one person metagamed. It was agreed upon beforehand by my player, who wanted to make a new character after completing his current character's main goals.
How is every type of video you post such a banger? The animated spellbooks are fun and informative, the storytimes are fun and creative, and the shop talks are fun and enlightening.
I disagree with killing another character as punishment. But the DELIVERY was phenomenal. Whether Larry was lying or not he gets genuine reactions from both players. And had the metagamer been smart and looked for a second body, it would’ve been a reward for cleverness cuz lets fucking face it, our boy was dead before “backup” arrived.
He did! He checked the bed. DM said it was empty. Player still yelled shapeshifter and attacked for no reason.
I think the intent was probably to have them either duke it out for a round or two or have them argue to see what the metagamer plans to do. The metagamer however was too good and had an idea that would instantly kill the enemy in one blow and didn't let them try and convince him. If the plan was just to have one kill the other with no recourse there'd be no reason to give the other player the paper to tell them it's fake so they can convince the metagamer.
The dm didn’t kill the player. The meta gamer did.
Bet it won’t happen again
It's D&D... Your characters dying as part of your party members incompetence isn't punishment, it's the game. You aren't being punished if your character dies, you are living an empty shell of a game if your characters survive and don't potentially die out of your control.
@@LevattWolfheart for real. The threat of death is what makes tabletops meaningful.
The bit of me that was introduced originally by old guard players of AD&D loves every bit of this solution.
The modern GM that I try to strive to be is just crushed at how sloppy and rude this is to the victim.
Fantastic video!
This is why 5e has a DM shortage. DMs need to standup for ourselves again.
This is so well done it still drew me in the SECOND time I watched it, and I was surprised again when the video ended.
Favourite video I’ve seen of yours, very funny and really cool look to the castle scenes!
Good to see u have such struggles/stories too. Feels familiar
Larry is rad and amazing!
A longer video from Zee to wake up to on Xmas eve?.. amazing.
Thank you
Thank you for the great vid! Hope you have a happy holidays.
Wow a lot of people are really struggling to separate the joke from the lesson. Amazing work all around, thanks for the laughs!
The joke: Larry is an asshole
The lesson: Dont be an asshole
The level of tomfoolery that comes from Larry is OP. He is a shenaniganizer
Hey he gave a warning...and that group should know better than to cross Larry. He's a min-maxing wargamer with years (probably decades) of experience. He's got a contingency for everything.
@@WWFanatic0 would love to see some actual video from a session with zee and Larry.
@@FatherFigure-itout I want to see Larry be that brutal war gamer DM in a 3.5 setting where insta-kill mechanics are as common as a horde of orcs.
Between this and the skatti sprinters, we need more tabletop skits like these. A+ work man!
I love this concept! Going to start using this.
Why are you worried for him?
Im not, im scared of the dark!
Another good reason! XD
This is why the light cantrip in D&D is so dope. Oh no, my candle blew out whatever casts light on the candle.
@@stargateproductions you mean, fundamentally broken and bad for the game?
@@armorclasshero2103 what, how it's light.
@@stargateproductions just another spell that destroys the gold economy and the exploration pillar. when you get shit for free, then it's not a game it's charity.
These are amazing definitely would watch a campagin based off this
I kind of love his reasoning for entering his room when the place goes crazy of being worried for a injured player.
this is one of my favourite ones yet, i enjoy this as much as the cold road series
Haha, love this DM. This is the best.
First! thanks for sneaking in a new vid before the new year Zee.
Brilliant! I'll use this.
I love this. Such a good little story.
As a Tamberlane this is the 1st time I’ve ever heard of someone else choosing that name for a character. You Sir have good taste.
I thought it was a reference to the webcomic Tamberlane.
@@massimocole9689 There are real people who have this name too. Me for example.
@@The_Arcadian I wasn't saying otherwise? I was just bringing up another place I had heard it before which I thought was neat.
@@massimocole9689 ah okay
Tho this is a very genius way to give a lesson on metagaming... Isn't this punishing Zee far more than the Barb? Zee wasn't the one metagaming!
It's Larry what do you expect really
it's not genius, for exactly the reason you give. If the metagamer faces consequences it will be because Zee (in this case) gets angry about it, and the DM should not be stoking resentment like that. More likely though is that both players get pissed at the DM. Zee lost a character to try and teach someone else a lesson, and the metagamer just got called out publicly for a behaviour that they clearly thought was fine. Metagamers don't need to be 'taught a lesson', they just need to be asked to stop, or failing that find a table that's ok with that kind of thing.
@@MainlyHuman The only solution for this is for the DM to rule that the whole encounter is still a dream. And the Barb wakes up in the library with the lights out.
@MRdaBakkle well no... you could rule that the meta gamer does actually save Zee from a shapeshifter, you could give them information that would allow them to tell if it was a shapeshifter or not, or you could just say no, because the barb is clearly acting with meta knowledge. Or you could just not create the situation in the first place, half the point of the video is that Larry set this up to happen at Zee's expense.
Classic Larry
Excited for your next video!
You are all babies! This was awesome! If I wish I was in this group.
I could watch an entire series of Larry being vigilant against metagamers. This was legendary.
Oh my god, I feel this so much. Playing with some coworkers and its a lot of fun, but the level of metagaming is pretty through the roof. Would love for the GM to pull a stunt like this.
In fairness, the concept of metagaming being a problem is something that's very unique to trpgs, so if your coworkers mostly play other stuff that's not strange. In pretty much every other game it's fine. It's not like you play a game of warhammer or whatever and ask yourself "Would this particular group of troops really know about the things that happened last turn on the other side of the table?"
damn, the animation and atmosphere here was really nice.
Larry is using army drill sergeant tactics. Punish the jokers with the ire of the rest of the platoon.
That's how all society functions. Not just the army.
And when we all retire we piss on the sarges grave!
As much as Larry made a point of pointing out the Barbarian's meta-gaming by questioning his decision to suddenly rush to the room, feel like he should have ask him: "So you rushed to the room, concerned for his safety, only to push him out of the window, assuming he was a shapeshifter, when all you know is that the lights went out and the castle is creepy?"
He did point out that the room was empty.
I love that the berserker model is still alive and well. I grow attached to the assets of your animation and want to see them live
This was your best one yet!
Amazing job
I love the Magestorm, it seems like a cool idea for a setting. (Idk if it actually is, or is part of lore of a different setting) here’s what I came up with to expand upon it, not only as a random event but as a whole magic system.
Every couple of months a magestorm will occur, this violent yet beautiful violet storm tears a path across the land, leaving destruction in its wake and fucking with the laws of reality due to its wild magic effect.
However, those born during a magestorm or struck by the violet lightning have a chance of getting magical powers, permanently infused with the violet lightning and able to channel and weave it to cast spells.
Some scholars and artificers have learned through dangerous experimentation, to catch this violet lightning in a bottle and are then able to infuse it into ink to create spell-ink. This ink can be used with special paper, made from a tree that was struck by the violet lightning, can then infuse that paper with words of power which are whispered in the dreams of scholars or the storm-born during a magestorm.
With all three of those ingredients combined the first wizard was born, able to speak the words of power written with the spell-ink to cast spells. The tricky thing is, is that the words of power are in an unknown language, so only the intelligent have any chance of deciphering them and using their arcane power.
Any natural object (earth, ore, trees, ect.) become infused with the violet lightning and can be turned into magic items. However more powerful magic items need focusing runes engraved upon them to fully activate the items power. These runes can only be engraved with a magical chisel that was struck by the violet lightning. Rune-craft is a long standing tradition for Dwarves and ever so few races have been gifted with the knowledge of runes, however some scholars have begun to craft their own rune-craft system.
Let me know what you guys think, love to hear yer feedback and expand this cuz I really wanna try to run a game with this kind of system. Idk if I should limit Sorcerers only to subclasses lightning or wild magic themed.
Actually incredible writing. Gonna be using some of this in the setting I'm building.
@@twinkdeer174 please feel free. If you have anything more you’d like to add to this, I’d love to hear it.
This is why I personally dislike DMs who use in-game tactics to deal with out-of-game problems. The best tables are where everyone communicates their problems to each other like functional adults.
yeah here they play likes they're eachothers crushes in school.
Thank you, that made me so happy.
Dat head turn @0:27 * italian hand gesture for delicious * Wonderfull animation work there :)
One the one hand this is a powerfull lesson about metagaming. On the other hand, it's being an asshole.
It's the dnd version of being forced to smoke a whole pack of cigarettes for being caught with one
But who was the asshole here?
The DM for allowing this?
The metagamer who wanted to be the star?
The victim who didn't stand up to the metagamer, silently wanting the other players to give him numerical superiority against the assassin/ambusher?
@@anders8204 Both DM and Metagamer are assholes. Metagamer for metagaming and DM for punishing someone who isnt metagaming.
i don't really feel this is a bad instance of metagaming tho? like, it moves the story foward (except with the shapeshifter part, that would at least require a roll or something) @@anders8204
@@anders8204 The DM because the one losing out and really being punished is the player who lost their character. The DM decided it was ok to have them lose their character from another player's wrong doing. Just vito the action as soon as they confirm that they're metagaming.
Continue the mancerclass series, gud video btw
This was awesome! Sad to see you lose your character over it, but of all the ways to die that aren't your own fault nor heroic, this has to be one of the best.
I've watched this several times now, and it just keeps getting funnier. So relatable.
Hey, he told him. "You're on notice!"
That's the kind of thing that happens when someone starts meta gaming to enter a scene their not involved in.
Absolutely. I would love to play at that table, and would gladly lose my character to shame a meta gamer. Love all the whiny comments about Larry here; I have to assume coming from meta gaming players, or people who only play characters that are such edgy special boys that losing them would destroy their whole world.
@@ZzZ-qd1zo Absolutely agree with your first sentence. Consequences of actions aren't always felt by the actor, and most mature people will likely be hit as hard, or harder when they mistakenly cause suffering on someone else.
That said, let's not attack those so called "edgy special boys", friend. We all have our own perspectives and in this context, there is no "right" way. It is just a game. Losses from circumstance outside of one's control are rarely viewed as acceptable. (Except maybe in games of chance.) I can certainly empathize why many would be upset in this situation.
@@ZzZ-qd1zo Judging from Zee's earlier videos, this is also a group that's used to having character death be a fairly common risk. For some players, that might be a scary proposition, but this is a group that's okay with it. Not everyone can get to grips with characters that are disposable, but this may be something that comes with experience of different perspective from different generations.
Dying builds character, after all. Well, building character usually gets involved after the dying, to be specific... but yeah, tl; dr this whole death thing isn't as big a deal at that table as it might be for, say, people who mostly know D&D from shows where characters kinda have to live long enough for the good stuff.
@@ZzZ-qd1zoAgreed! The GM asked questions, gave him a chance to stop. Didnt give away information and let the player run off assumptions.
He didnt even DIRECT him. This wasnt a bait and switch!
Player did it on their own. GM also didnt save the other player.
Now, I'd use it as a plot twist and or a warning. Like, the dead character comes back as undead, miraculously saved and the other players have to do something xool to save them.
Or a wandering monk who happens to be a plot hook to the next part comes up with near dead player.
Yknow, do something this cluster frag.
All that to say, I am legit shocked folks think the GM did anything wrong here.
Ahh my old friend consequence... How you warm my heart as a DM.
seriously i cannot recommend czepeku's maps enough. Each map fits that perfect niche of an art piece and a battlemap like nobody else. Not even sponsored their maps just make my life much easier
chimpkin numget
This was fucking hilarious and I laughed uncontrollably all the way through. I feel like I had a DM like this once.
What a lovely little holiday treat!
Glorious XD
Was wondering if that guy at the table was ever going to get a speaking role
Essentially this situation is on the Barbarian player. Larry did a good job about questioning them about why they'd go to Tamber's room and prevented Zee from metagaming further by basically telling him to let the situation play out. Barbarian basically burst into his friend's room with little provocation and declared him to be a shapeshifter then pushed him out the window. The only thing that Larry prevented was Zee telling the Metagamer the situation was a dream.
Right, he didn't get to say anything himself before he was pushed out the window. From his POV this is the same as the DM saying "you wake up and your friend comes in and pushes you out the window to your death" "can I say anything to him to stop him?" "No"
The situation is on the Barbarian player AND on Larry. That's why Zee used Larry as the DM. As a player, I expect the DM to work with me in order to have fun together, not to kill off my character in order to "prove a point" to another shitty player.
@drakegrandx5914 I'd say Larry is a dick... but he also was keeping the pace of the scene. What could Tamber have said to prevent himself from being thrown out the window? Tamber has no idea why he's even in there. And by the time he screams, die shapeshifter! The Barbarian is already attacking.
@@wilhelmvoidwalker4810 That's true and all, but a good DM would have called it quits at the "Die, shapeshifter!". We're here to have fun, not to improv a story to sell and get money from, and keeping the tone of the scene is not more important than a player not having fun because of another's mistakes (which actually: you are about to allow an innocent player's character's death just to have a dick-misuring contest with the stupid one at the table; I'd say the tone of the scene is about to get disrupted pretty quickly regardless, if it hasn't already).
The skit is fun, but again, that's all that it's supposed to be to it: Larry's whole character is having understandable takes but terrible behavior, which is why he's being usen in the video. He is the bad guy even when he's on the good side. Zee just meant to make a funny video, not to portray a good example of how to handle metagaming.
@@drakegrandx5914 Couldn't disagree more with "A good DM would have called it quits at the 'Die, shapeshifter'". That's taking away player agency and playing your character for you. Even if it is to avoid having you make something the DM considers a mistake.
Larry being a good or bad DM here is contingent on something outside of this snippet we see in the video: the session 0, or other prior form of understanding establishing stakes, responsibilities and boundaries. As well as what happens next (like, does Zee just sit there for the rest of the game, or does Larry get him back into the game somehow?). If everyone sat down and agreed to play a high-lethality old school survival horror game then this could also be one hell of a way to set the tone.
Our party had a sort of similar situation during out Phandelver campaign, Our barbarian went on ahead of us and died from taking AOs from bugbears that ambushed her on the way in Wave Echo Cave, and kicked her body off the stairs after the ambush. As much as we tried we did not have an in game reason to know what happened to her, so when we got to the drow in the temple temple we had a missing tank and had to go through the big fight without her and the player had to sit out the finale.
Never split the party.
@@shrubninja6444 INDEED.
Beautiful twist.
Great scene, great GM
So, I have to agree with Larry on this one. Don't metagame, immerse yourself in your character, not the plot of the story. It can be hard, I know, but it is so worth it
Small fix for this to be more fair to the "bait" character:
A second note folded inside the first,
"Your character will be fine, just play along. The magestorm's harsh winds will blow you into the window of a lower floor. Hide this note."
You can then say that the player that got yeeted did indeed fall out the window, and convince the offender that they died. When they look out, the magestorm has conjured an illusion of a mangled corpse. All the while, the innocent player is simply disoriented a few stories down.
So... just pull a deus ex machina out your ass....
Sounds like bending over backwards against consequences. Idk why people think DMs need to baby the players. Yeah, above table shit falls in part on the DM to address, especially with a new group, but in-game things should be fixable by players.
Idk what is it with this dm parenting shit. Either the DM is one of the players and has only slightly more responsibility or they are above the players because they handle all of it. And idk about you, but I play with grown-ass people so I prefer the 1st one.
@@chukyuniqul you seem the type of person people would rather not hang out with if they have the option of someone else.
@@Zlyde007 lmao I mistyped, because I wanted to say I prefer the 1st option, and you making this comment made me notice that I wrote 2nd instead. Whops.
Either way might do you good to not assume about someone you've never played with. Nothing happening in this scene was unfair on the DM's part. If you think I as a DM should go and bubblewrap every corner of the world and then the players' hands so they can't hurt each other by being assholes then yeah, you're right you wouldn't like my games. If, however, you think that means that I'm against my players you're wrong again. I punish two things: expecting my NPCs to be skyrim-dumb and expecting their actions to not have consequences. The two kinda intertwine. I've always rewarded clever planning and never went out of my way to punish. If they're punished, they brought it upon themselves, like tryina steal or cheat or worse without an exit strategy. I only really put the kabosh on stuff that gets gross, but that's the end result of a multitude of choices not just one simple mistake.
@@chukyuniqul And you're the one bending over backwards to DMs pushing consequences to the extreme opposites. Zee didn't have to die to get the message across: this was just a d*ck move by Larry.
God, the more I get invested in RPG games, the more I realize this community is f*cking trash
I do like how he calls out ther barbarian, that is a subtle version of "are you sure you want to do this?"
Leaving a comment is good for the algorithm.
Ps: Great work Zee :D
Great animation as usual Zee, what system are they using?
That's what I want to know too.
Probably _Larrymore_ which is a d6-based system that we saw Larry running before, in the video "5 tips! Lies about starting a D&D group!" about a year ago on this channel, at 4:59 onwards.
@@SimonClarkstone LP must be Larry Points
I saw that twist coming a mile away and I STILL loved it. 😆
Larry was spot-on. Give the player a polite warning and a chance to back off from metagaming, but if they persist, let it ride out and let the group live (or die) with the consequences. Allowing (not causing) it to negatively affect another player's character is unfortunate, but legitimate, and helps drive the point home.
Interesting read, and, I guess, valid. I read it as Larry knowing his players so well that he can manipulate them into killing each other, and that he actually does that. This would be a pretty passive-aggressive way to punish metagaming. Especially when you could reveal it to be a dream, or put the barbarian in the dream, and reveal it later, or just not let the barbarian's player interrupt the dream.
If people are being a problem at one's table, isn't it better to talk to them, rather than take it out on their beloved characters?
@@Vinemaple Revealing the whole thing to be a dream would fully negate the consequence of their actions, though. And it would risk lowering any stakes in future scenes since you've trivialized retconning a player death.
As for talking about it instead of giving in-game consequences: In Larry's defense he did call the metagaming out and DID put Hester's player 'on notice'. The immediate escalation after that does come across as pretty aggressive, but that'd be unavoidable in a four-minute video
this is my favorite Larry video.
Happy New Year and remember, no power creeping and rulez lawyering!
I can see why this kind of thing would breed resentment against Larry. He first plays along with the barb's metagaming, by trying to draw out a reasonable excuse for the player to get up and go check on his friend. But when it comes time to attacking the "doppleganger" he immediately pulls a 180 on that and doesn't ask the player to explain to him how he could know the PC before him was a fake. He just goes along with the player's whims and lets him kill the other PC.
Thank you! What people don't understand is that Larry canonically has it in for Cartoon Zee, for ideological reasons. In this situation, no matter what the players decide, Larry has the ability to make sure Zee's hero dies. This is how he plays at other people's tables, and the other players let him, because he (a) owns the game store and (b) has taught them that not letting him get his way is even _worse._
In fairness, he doesn't pull a 180 out of nowhere. He puts the player 'on notice', which is the moment when he stops asking for justifications.
Zee, I gotta ask: are the characters here aside from yourself based on people in real life, people you know?
I dont think that matters at all.
@@JonesCrimsonit does
@@bestaround3323 why would it ever matter?
@@armorclasshero2103 context
@@bestaround3323 all the context needed is provided.
This is amazing
very old school type event. i love it.
I would love to play at that table. I'd be too scared to do anything, but watching others flounder around would be hilarious!
Annnnd that's the moment I'd leave the table.
be honest with yourself knowing everything you do about larry; would you have sat down at the table for a session 0 to begin with? probably not
@@DanteHellfyre Absolutely lol.
Gosh darn do I love more Larry content
Wow! Expertly handled!
Ohh you know writing the secret down on paper and handing it to the player is something I’d never thought of. Then it can be revealed later and everyone knows it hasn’t changed. Clever - I may use that
I hate metagaming!
I am not claiming to have NEVER done it EVER in my gaming history, but it was always in some small & rather minimal way. (And even then, I felt guilty about it after the fact, when I realized what I had done. Like I had "cheated".)
But the completely obvious/ "omniscient mode" B.S. (like this) is just staggering to me!
Yeah, it is annoying, no matter if I am behind the screen or one of the PCs.
There are 2 types of meta gamers, the ones trying to use their own real life skills to influence the world (that one if fine if they play an Isekai, in fact you might want to let certain players be just that if you can't rid them of that habit) and the ones like Larry that thinks they know everything the other players know at all times.
Well, there is also the rules lawyer who knows the stats of every monster in the game and their weaknesses and abuse that knowledge, but that one is less of a problem since you can use a few custom monsters to work against him/her. Yeah, most rules lawyers don't do that but more then a few does.
Some is unavoidable and necessary as your character has much more knowledge of the nuances and common sense of the world than your player does.
And sometimes the game and/or setting encourages it, and people can have fun with genre savvy characters.
@@TGNXAR Yeah, as I said, Isekai characters tend to know this stuff and it is fine.
A normal character actually have to use skill ranks (and maybe roll for it if it is an obscure knowledge).
Knowledge skills are in almost all games including D&D to cover these things, if you don't have a knowledge skill your character don't know and you are cheating.
As a DM who gets annoyed by these things, you can always write down what kind of knowledge your players use without having it and force them to use skill ranks ob those skills next time they level up, that should teach them to RP.
@loke6664 @loke6664 knowledge skills can't cover every minute detail. And rolling dice for tedious minutia breaks immersion. Small amounts of player knowledge and action is fine. The player that metagamed his buddy might be in danger was one thing. Him using knowledge of what was happening to his buddy is something else entirely. "Foul shapeshifter" shouldn't have crossed his mind.
@@TGNXAR Yeah, I am talking about when it becomes a problem, like when a player start shouting out weak points of enemies his character never even heard about or when he is trying to build a real world style corporation (yeah, one of my players tried that) in D&D using knowledge he had but his player possibly couldn't have.
Small stuff really can't be helped, even the best role players sometimes assume their characters knows something that seems obvious for them but really isn't when you think about it.
When it starts to affect the game, I usually ask my player what he or she have in a fitting knowledge skill and if they don't have it, I point out to them that they couldn't possibly know that information unless they buy ranks in that skill. Most players actually agree when you point it out and try to avoid things like that.
If not, then they are meta gaming on purpose and it might be time to consider something to teach them that isn't fine.
For instance, knowing that it is a smart idea to boil water from a swamp before drinking it probably should require a rank in survival it is a minor thing and while people in the past actually didn't know that it is something I wouldn't protest against, it is a minor detail and no big deal (and save the players getting baboon butt).
If on the other hand, the player scream to the others to bring out a mirror when they see a women with snake hair, that is not something an average adventurer without bardic knowledge would know about.
So yeah, if you know you have a tendency to meta game you can besides playing an Isekai also play a bard, they can get away with a lot more then any other player without really cheating.
This. Is. Awesome! ❤❤❤
The only thing a DM can say to invoke as much fear as "you can certainly try"; just a simple 'why'