I think it’s very different for women who want to leave, sam you know first hand how controlling and hard these groups are to their members, they lead by fear and guilt but you know it as a Male, you had the small freedoms of a vehicle, money and working out of the community, most girls don’t, girls are kept closer, they are watched more and the grip on them is harder, they are more valuable in their eyes, and in a way men that leave actually helps them out. It would be so much harder and scarier for a girl to leave, she doesn’t even know how to make choices cause her whole life, people have been making decisions for her, even how she wears her hair! I’ve watched a lot of interviews with people who have left, more often than not it’s got physical and people have actually physically tried to stop people, that’s pretty full on and doesn’t need dramatics
Yes, I (Sam) agree that it is, in most cases, more difficult for women. Thank you for your comment! I do have to say, however, that I've personally experienced and have been a part of some of my sisters leaving. I know every family situation is different but my sisters that have left had a similar experience to mine when leaving. That being said, to your point, I have a lot more brothers that have left than I do sisters.
@@GrowingUpinPolygamy I’m so glad that they didn’t experience violence when leaving, it would be so difficult to decide to leave, them to leave on horrible terms would be heartbreaking 💔 I cannot even imagine 😢
It seems like with the FLDS that there was certain families closer to Warren Jeffs who bore the brunt of his abuse and then those families who were maybe not so much in the "inner-circles" (for a lack of a better term) who were less harmed by everything. Also, Sam being male and having a present father protected him from a lot of things. It's worth noting too that Sister Wives was made in part with the influence of a group called Principle Voices (which Christine was once part of) that seeks to advocate for polygamy. So, it was made with a deliberate effort to make polygamy seem normal, good, harmless etc. to portray it in the best light. You guys might not have watched it yet, but at one point there's a sort of crossover episode where Kolene from Escaping Polygamy is featured on an episode. Oh! This just made me remember something. There were a couple of very short lived TLC shows specifically about the FLDS. One was called Escaping the Prophet and the other Breaking the Faith. If you feel like watching them, I would be curious to hear your thoughts
Carolyn Jessop was pretty much the first one on the outside to write a book about what it was like for her in Short Creek, people there despised her for it, the book was revolutionary and jump started the changes that the community has gone through over the past two decades, Carolyn would be a lovely guest, if she would come on?!!! I have the highest of respect for her ♥️
I remember reading her book way back when. My mother-in-law bought it, and shared it with my sister and I. It was eye opening for sure. I don't know if she does interviews anymore, but I second it would be lovely to have you guys interview her.
I think we should be careful saying "well every group has some people abused and some people not" as if these groups have NORMAL rates of abuse. I think that high control religions have HIGHER rates of abuse than the average group of people and there are reasons for this.
@@China-Clay For example, I attended a mid-range conservative mennonite church and the way they viewed "forgiveness" and some other mindsets seemed to me to make FERTILE ground for abuse. Abuse problems aren't just because "we aren't perfect" and "we're human" like they say. If you enable abuse, sweep it under the rug, and don't take serious steps to stop it and instead blame the victim for not being "forgiving" enough, then there is going to be an abuse problem. I personally didn't even see any PHYSICAL abuse, but I just thought, wow this is a place where abuse could really thrive.
In particular, the women and children need protection. In cults there are no options outside the patriarchy. In main stream churches and ideologies there are many opportunities to meet outsiders and to read about diverging opinions.
I completely agree. Otherwise there is a minimization of the abuse. It is one thing to say “we couldn’t have fun.” Quite different that girls under the age of 18 are being forced to marry. That’s abuse regardless.
I really appreciate your nuanced perspective as always ❤️ It's a hard line to walk, and you'll never make everyone happy. I love the Ted Talk, the danger of a single story. Everyone has a story, and it doesn't take away or diminish anyone else's story. Also the complexity of trauma doesn't always look the way people think it does. It's complex. Thanks for always giving room for that.
My husband works in media and there’s a saying, “If it bleeds, it reads.” It wouldn’t make a popular TV show with high ratings if they showed a very calm situation of someone leaving without drama or just doing everyday chores of canning food and sweeping the floor. So it is very likely TV shows may be true, but it probably represents a smaller amount of cases that make entertaining television. I love your channel. Thank you for giving your thoughtful perspective. Can’t wait for the next video. All the best!
I really enjoy listening to you guys! I came across your channel recently. You're both so insightful and compassionate. I live in northcentral Idaho, and have many LDS friends and neighbors. There are many other (non LDS) churches in my area (including my own; I attend a Quaker/Friends church), and very large families are very common, so I definitely agreed with your comments about samenesses and differences between groups.
I do like it when you do the comparisons how much things are alike or different. You see interviews and get bits and pieces of it here and there, but when you devote a whole video to it you get to hear a little more in depth
Sister Wives really is a very different show now than the earlier seasons, not just in the breakdowns of the marriages, but also because a lot of the kids are grown now and many of them are not interested in being involved in the show. It shifted from being another show about a large, unconventional family (TLC has had tons of “big family” shows over the years), but now it’s mainly about the relationship drama between the adults (maybe more like TLC’s other popular franchise, 90 Day Fiancé?)
I really appreciate and like how you guys share your thoughts, your prospective. What he saw in his community and family in a respectful and honest way. Keep up the great work. I appreciate all you guys are doing.
Hello. Always enjoy your channel content. I’m not Mormon I grew up a Roman Catholic strict upbringing and strict catholic schools with abuse in both. I can see some similarities and differences equally between a lot of the stricter standards in different religions. It’s kinda weird how it all comes together in my head when I hear it from others perspective. We all probably had our moments of good to give us a breather from the oppressive lifestyle but these shows over do it to a point of disappointment and disbelief.
Yes, there's very little 'reality' in 'reality' TV. That said, I'm glad to hear you guys are talking to Peter and possibly working with him. I think a lot of stories are too dramatic, but you guys seem to have the respectful approach. I hope that works out for you both. He's got a style that lets people just tell their stories without all the drama. You and Peter could probably spend days together and still not tell everything. I can totally see Sam taking Peter on a walking tour of his hometown, especially as the son of a former mayor.
You 2 deserve much more subscribers and views!! So accurate and balanced between your own experience and perspectives Thank you so much! It's interesting and intriguing to know the reasons behind, what people are used to as influence's religion and what's next in a different life. It would be so interesting also to know what's now going on with people escaped some years ago. Xxx from an Italian 🇮🇹 fan (sorry for my English).
There was a time when there were a bunch of the polygamist families: my five wives is the one I remember but there were one or two more. They often didn’t last one or two seasons because there was less conflict and none of them took another wife.
I think it’s important you pointed out that every family is different. Also, sometimes things are more common than you might think. I grew up Ultra Orthodox Jewish and was married off in an arranged marriage when I was nineteen. I’ve had arguments with other women who were raised in the same community who claim that marriages aren’t “really arranged” and certainly never forced. And yet my marriage was arranged as was almost everyone I knew. And yes, many marriages including my own were what I would consider forced. Some families value the happiness of their children and allow them to say no to a prospective match and some don’t. Even within communities that seem very homogeneous, there will still be differences in people’s experiences.
I appreciate the acknowledgment that ALL people and groups have different experiences, good people and bad people among them, etc. I believe in living your best life and I support any combination of adult relationships / marriages. I mean it's not like monogamous marriage has been all that successful. In fact monogamous marriage has such a poor track record that many young people are rejecting marriage altogether, and as a middle age person, I can't blame them!! My view on life and people is each to his or her own. Just don't intentionally hurt anyone in living your best life.
I was an only child aside for a few years my parents were foster parents, so being an only child having that many siblings is kind of fascinating to me 😳
Me too. I didn’t grow up in any kind of Mormon religion, and I was my mom’s only child. My dad had a son from a prior marriage, and we didn’t really grow up together. It was pretty much just me, so to think of having any siblings around 24/7, let alone having like 20 or 30 siblings is just mind boggling to me. I can’t even imagine what that must be like. I’m sure it has pros and cons. I have four now, and in glad they have the sibling experience that I didn’t have because sometimes I was lonely.
This is why im hoping to create a documentary that really showcases how solid of a community Short Creek had. It's not the members, it was the leadership. And unfortunately the members are the ones suffering the consequences. I still believe Leroy Johnson was the last genuine leader of that faith, where he truly did what he thought was right for that community.
I think it would be more exaggerated if Sam was the 'odd one out' in terms of leaving. From what I've noticed on TH-cam, there are quite a few people who don't find these groups to be right for them and their lives. It seems like the majority of participants in these groups suffer in some way and that the normal human reaction is to want to get out. My maternal grandfather grew up in southern Idaho in the 1930's/40's and joined the military at 18 to 'escape.' He wasn't raised F/LDS but still wanted out of the prevailing culture. Great videos, thank you both for your hard work in discussing these difficult topics.
Big Love contains some themes from very dramatic Mormon history. If you know mormon history you'll realise that the producerar knew about Mark Hoffman, LeBarons and the Kingstons for starters.
You might want to check out 'My 5 Wives' reruns. It's centered around Brady Williams & his 'wives'. His wife, Rosemary, accused her dad of molesting her as a child. At the time of the show, Lynn Thompson was the leader of the AUB. I believe they'd formed their family while in the sect & stayed together after they left in the 2000s.
I think by now I’ve learned enough about the FLDS church to say that: Sam, you have an idealized perception of your own upbringing. I understand you wanting to defend your upbringing, but saying your childhood was the norm denies the reality for so so many others. You have said families were not allowed to interact with each other. So being a kid at that time, you don’t really know. You also have the experience of being a male, a good looking boy made u one of the lucky one.
I am a man from China,I had been in monogamy relationship, it is also filled with abusing,cheating,mental violence,manipulation even deception,I think it is not about polygamy or monogamy, it is purely about choosing the right one.
Sister Wives making it sounds as if they were on Utahs most wanted, I lived in Utah polgamy is the worst kept secret, I worked with women in polgamy they were not worried about the law considering we worked in the court system, if the cops were after them it would be more likely they were being served papers on a lawsuit. Utah hasn't prosecuted people for polgamy for years, but there has been polgamous people prosecuted for other things like tax evasion, welfare fraud ,domestic ect but not because they practice polgamy.
@@notafanof you need to read the actual case, they weren't being investigated solely on polgamy but other things as suspected welfare fraud, read the article in the Saltlake tribune April 11 2016, the prosecution was looking at Bigamy as an "additional" charge. The allegations were for receiving State benefits through deception, Christine was getting medical through the state for her kids when in Lehi, living in the same home as the father Kody Brown. I wasn't working in the court system then or in that area but had friends that did. It wasn't about all about them being polgamist, there are many closet polgamous professionals living and working in Utah, most don't advertise the 2 women I worked with didn't advertise they were in plural marriage. If you ever lived in Davis CO Utah I guareentee you will meet someone living in plural marriage and most like never know it.Bwt the case was dropped because they moved out of state. One of the ladies is or was a member of the AUB I heard a lot about Kody Brown and his family from her, and no she didn't know Robyn. The lawsuit your referring to was to decriminalize polgamy Christine was a big proponent among other AUB members who had been working on getting a law passed to decriminalize even though Utah was never prosecuting polgamy not since the big ordeal in short creek decades before.
In my opinion ,most of the Mormon families I have seen on the various TH-cam channels make family a priority and have better values than a lot of mainstream families; respectful, kind, good work ethic and seem genuinely kind and honest.
Big love made me laugh just by the first ridiculous episode. It’s as made up as the sapranos. I don’t think tlc would be interested in our polygamous family unless they want to come in and film us doing loads of laundry, hundreds of dishes, laughing and singing non stop like my girls, and our boys wrestling. I think sister wives this season speaks for itself how their lives are much more mundane because they just keep showing the same stuff over and over. Yes I agree I can relate a lot more to the Walt seasons vs now.
I am so, so embarrassed to have watched every single episode of sister wives and would be mortified if others in my life found out. Ive tuned in every week for 13 years and that’s no small feat from Western Australia 😂😂😂
I am not a Mormon but am considering moving to southern Utah. I have been told twice now that it is hard to be in Utah as a non mormon as far as jobs and things like that. Do you have any insight or opinions on that?
I think you will still have a great experience in Southern Utah. People are very friendly and I don't think you'll have a hard time getting a job. I think the biggest adjustment will be the culture. The culture is still very Mormon but as long as you are ok having church culture in your everyday life, I think you'll find it's a beautiful place to live!
Curious, could the difference be that men can leave and women have to escape? Men, unless they are direct relatives of the current leader are even sometimes run off and women are needed to produce the chosen kids/people and are treated more like a possession than an individual.
It anecdotally seems to me that the polygamous families I've seen on TV (Sister Wives, Seeking Sister Wife, the Rockland Ranch documentary, etc) have a higher rate of drama/disfunction than the monogamous families I know in my personal life. That said, they're a cherry-picked sample: _these are all people on TV!_ There's all the TV producer machinations you two spoke about. But also, agreeing to be on reality TV takes a certain kind of personality. I would hazard a guess that such people are above average in traits like desire for attention, not thinking through potential consequences, etc. These same traits aren't great for family harmony either. The most solid polygamous family I can think of are the Winders from _Seeking Sister Wife._ They decided to take a step back because they're sensible and they'd had enough of reality TV. Even when they were on, they got less screen time because they're just too functional and boring. The fact that 2/3 are major introverts also meant they came across as awkward and stilted on camera. Editors gave them less screen time, preferring to focus on more showy personalities. The same traits that I suspect help their family function also make them less desirable as TV subjects.
It may also be extremely different for men and women in those different groups. Women are most valued 8n polygamy because of the perversion of having so many wives.
That's my thought. Firstly, the FLDS is at a point where they can't even pretend to support their male population (if you're supposed to have at least 3 wives to get to the highest degree of glory, that means AT LEAST two thirds of the men have to leave, and leaving voluntarily is easier for everyone than forceable removal), so the loss of a boy like Sam, while sad for the family, helps the community maintain itself in the long run. The loss of a woman - particularly a YOUNG woman who can still have biological children - is far greater. Secondly - I say this coming from a conservative Christian background, though not fundamentalist Mormon background - these groups are much more likely to use force to get girls to follow the rules than boys in part due to girls being so explicitly under authority of their fathers or husbands.
It also seems like women have a harder time understanding that they can leave and having the resources to do so in terms of money and transferrable skills. Men can go out and get a construction job usually. It does seem like "escaping polygamy" is more of mentally leaving in addition to the physical moving out.
I watched all these episodes and I always wondered why they take a truck and try to take everything with them and then like you say “here they come” that part never made sense, if you truly have to escape you’d take some clothes and beat feet.
I think it would be interesting for you to watch My Five Wives and compare Brady to Kody. Such a different feel in the homes and the leadership of each husband
Oh you will definitely see the difference ! My Five Wives had mrespect, less drama and so was canceled. It was a great show, good people , hard times but he made it clear every wife was important to him. He also was involved with all the children. I really liked the show but they too left the FLDS
I have a question ? I have watched Sister Wife's from the beginning and what I truly don't understand is Cody has said many times that the wife's can leave and Divorce him at any time. But that he can not leave are Divorce them . Is this a Polygamy or Religious way . Or a Cody thing. I sure hope you can answer this for me Thanks Kay.
Women leaving a marriage in the AUB s acceptable, even though there's still stigms around it. Men leaving is hugely, hugely taboo. They're the priesthood holders, supposed to lead their families and have responsibility for their spiritual welfare. The primary covenant in marriage is with heavenly Father, not the wife. Divorced women in the group are a priority for men to marry, to be a good priesthood holder and make up for the failings of the previous husband and priesthood holder. A man who divorced a woman hasn't just broken his covenant with her, he's breaking his covenant with heavenly Father.
I really get your points, about the music and staging when it comes to reality shows, but feel like you are emphasizing the “not as dangerous or dramatic as it looks” narrative over the “worse than it looks” when personal accounts indicate that sometimes it’s one, sometimes it’s the other. On Amanda’s channel she has indicated that at least as many times it was actually worse, and Michelle said that some things she said in her interview on EP, the producers said were too graphic or extreme to be put on regular television. Eta: correct me if I’m wrong, the producers on Sister Wives were going at first for a more positive, quirky family thing like the Duggars, and it’s come out that it was a lot more toxic than originally portrayed
Me Personally can not watch the whole hour of these shows...., I am looking to learn and understand why People stay in these groups..., and not interested in staged drama for views..., I wish more People were like that and maybe Mr. Cody Brown wouldn't be making $$$ along with TLC...., I appreciate when You both have People and Families' come on, I feel I am listening to more of the truth..., My Opinion..., Thank You.
Just a note, you mentioned polygamy in a context beyond the LDS faith. I, on the other hand, am a Muslim, born of Somali ethnicity in Kenya, and I became a naturalized American citizen at the age of 10. I am married to a white American convert from my adoptive state, Minnesota, and from time to time, I visit Kenya - where I am currently visiting family, including 2 of my father's wives. Polygamy is a practice accepted in Islam as a legtimate marital institution, although it's not necessarily encouraged. According to Orthodox scholars, it is permissible as long as a man can provide for up to four wives and doesn't show favoritism. Additionally, polygamy is only suitable for those who find it culturally acceptable. This is what the religion teaches. However, what people actually do can be a different story. In my family, my father has three wives, but he falls short in meeting his responsibilities, resulting in rather unhappy marriages. My husband hails from a cultural background where polygamy is unfamiliar, and I myself find it to be an unusual practice. Yet, I must acknowledge that I've encountered, though rarely, polygamous families where it seems to function. The challenges they face are distinct, but somehow, they make it work.
I got so tired of the Sister Wives director using the scene of Meri closing the truck with the police sirens blaring when they were leaving for Vegas. They played it over and over again in many episodes. It was so obviously staged.
I just don’t see Polygamy being healthy the women deal with a lot of loneliness, the expectations of men is completely unrealistic and ten the children are brought into a world where there’s just not enough time and energy for them to be raised into healthy adults and someday parents who are literally taught to be a version of Stepford wives/families 😢💔💔😢
I think it’s very different for women who want to leave, sam you know first hand how controlling and hard these groups are to their members, they lead by fear and guilt but you know it as a Male, you had the small freedoms of a vehicle, money and working out of the community, most girls don’t, girls are kept closer, they are watched more and the grip on them is harder, they are more valuable in their eyes, and in a way men that leave actually helps them out. It would be so much harder and scarier for a girl to leave, she doesn’t even know how to make choices cause her whole life, people have been making decisions for her, even how she wears her hair! I’ve watched a lot of interviews with people who have left, more often than not it’s got physical and people have actually physically tried to stop people, that’s pretty full on and doesn’t need dramatics
Yes, I (Sam) agree that it is, in most cases, more difficult for women. Thank you for your comment! I do have to say, however, that I've personally experienced and have been a part of some of my sisters leaving. I know every family situation is different but my sisters that have left had a similar experience to mine when leaving. That being said, to your point, I have a lot more brothers that have left than I do sisters.
@@GrowingUpinPolygamy I’m so glad that they didn’t experience violence when leaving, it would be so difficult to decide to leave, them to leave on horrible terms would be heartbreaking 💔 I cannot even imagine 😢
That was exactly what I was thinking. 18-year-old guy leaves: sweet, less competition. Young woman leaves: no way - we need the breeding stock!
It seems like with the FLDS that there was certain families closer to Warren Jeffs who bore the brunt of his abuse and then those families who were maybe not so much in the "inner-circles" (for a lack of a better term) who were less harmed by everything. Also, Sam being male and having a present father protected him from a lot of things. It's worth noting too that Sister Wives was made in part with the influence of a group called Principle Voices (which Christine was once part of) that seeks to advocate for polygamy. So, it was made with a deliberate effort to make polygamy seem normal, good, harmless etc. to portray it in the best light. You guys might not have watched it yet, but at one point there's a sort of crossover episode where Kolene from Escaping Polygamy is featured on an episode. Oh! This just made me remember something. There were a couple of very short lived TLC shows specifically about the FLDS. One was called Escaping the Prophet and the other Breaking the Faith. If you feel like watching them, I would be curious to hear your thoughts
I think for Sister Wives, they are so estranged from each other at this point that the ONLY conversations are the ones they're having for the cameras.
Carolyn Jessop was pretty much the first one on the outside to write a book about what it was like for her in Short Creek, people there despised her for it, the book was revolutionary and jump started the changes that the community has gone through over the past two decades, Carolyn would be a lovely guest, if she would come on?!!! I have the highest of respect for her ♥️
I remember reading her book way back when. My mother-in-law bought it, and shared it with my sister and I. It was eye opening for sure. I don't know if she does interviews anymore, but I second it would be lovely to have you guys interview her.
I think we should be careful saying "well every group has some people abused and some people not" as if these groups have NORMAL rates of abuse. I think that high control religions have HIGHER rates of abuse than the average group of people and there are reasons for this.
Exactly, abuse is inherent to some of these lifestyles, studies and statistics would be a very good place to go with this conversation
@@China-Clay For example, I attended a mid-range conservative mennonite church and the way they viewed "forgiveness" and some other mindsets seemed to me to make FERTILE ground for abuse. Abuse problems aren't just because "we aren't perfect" and "we're human" like they say. If you enable abuse, sweep it under the rug, and don't take serious steps to stop it and instead blame the victim for not being "forgiving" enough, then there is going to be an abuse problem. I personally didn't even see any PHYSICAL abuse, but I just thought, wow this is a place where abuse could really thrive.
In particular, the women and children need protection. In cults there are no options outside the patriarchy. In main stream churches and ideologies there are many opportunities to meet outsiders and to read about diverging opinions.
I completely agree. Otherwise there is a minimization of the abuse. It is one thing to say “we couldn’t have fun.”
Quite different that girls under the age of 18 are being forced to marry. That’s abuse regardless.
@@joerudnik9290 Yes they are trapped
I really appreciate your nuanced perspective as always ❤️ It's a hard line to walk, and you'll never make everyone happy. I love the Ted Talk, the danger of a single story. Everyone has a story, and it doesn't take away or diminish anyone else's story. Also the complexity of trauma doesn't always look the way people think it does. It's complex. Thanks for always giving room for that.
Thank you 😊
My husband works in media and there’s a saying, “If it bleeds, it reads.” It wouldn’t make a popular TV show with high ratings if they showed a very calm situation of someone leaving without drama or just doing everyday chores of canning food and sweeping the floor. So it is very likely TV shows may be true, but it probably represents a smaller amount of cases that make entertaining television.
I love your channel. Thank you for giving your thoughtful perspective. Can’t wait for the next video. All the best!
Much love to Sam for sharing his perspective
Thank you!
I really enjoy listening to you guys! I came across your channel recently. You're both so insightful and compassionate. I live in northcentral Idaho, and have many LDS friends and neighbors. There are many other (non LDS) churches in my area (including my own; I attend a Quaker/Friends church), and very large families are very common, so I definitely agreed with your comments about samenesses and differences between groups.
I do like it when you do the comparisons how much things are alike or different. You see interviews and get bits and pieces of it here and there, but when you devote a whole video to it you get to hear a little more in depth
Sister Wives really is a very different show now than the earlier seasons, not just in the breakdowns of the marriages, but also because a lot of the kids are grown now and many of them are not interested in being involved in the show. It shifted from being another show about a large, unconventional family (TLC has had tons of “big family” shows over the years), but now it’s mainly about the relationship drama between the adults (maybe more like TLC’s other popular franchise, 90 Day Fiancé?)
I really appreciate and like how you guys share your thoughts, your prospective. What he saw in his community and family in a respectful and honest way. Keep up the great work. I appreciate all you guys are doing.
Thank you! ❤️
Hello. Always enjoy your channel content. I’m not Mormon I grew up a Roman Catholic strict upbringing and strict catholic schools with abuse in both. I can see some similarities and differences equally between a lot of the stricter standards in different religions. It’s kinda weird how it all comes together in my head when I hear it from others perspective. We all probably had our moments of good to give us a breather from the oppressive lifestyle but these shows over do it to a point of disappointment and disbelief.
Yes, there's very little 'reality' in 'reality' TV. That said, I'm glad to hear you guys are talking to Peter and possibly working with him. I think a lot of stories are too dramatic, but you guys seem to have the respectful approach. I hope that works out for you both. He's got a style that lets people just tell their stories without all the drama. You and Peter could probably spend days together and still not tell everything. I can totally see Sam taking Peter on a walking tour of his hometown, especially as the son of a former mayor.
Thank you!
“I don’t even know what I’m watching anymore” said every Sister Wives fan 😂😂😂
🤣
Exactly! 😂
You responded! I’m famous 😎😂
I also think men have a easier time leaving these groups than woman
You 2 deserve much more subscribers and views!!
So accurate and balanced between your own experience and perspectives
Thank you so much!
It's interesting and intriguing to know the reasons behind, what people are used to as influence's religion and what's next in a different life.
It would be so interesting also to know what's now going on with people escaped some years ago.
Xxx from an Italian 🇮🇹 fan (sorry for my English).
Thank you so much! 😊Your English is great 👍
Good morning, Sam and Melissa!! Thank you as always for everything youre doing! Much love from Virginia ❤❤
Thank you! ❤️
Your perspectives are so interesting. Thank you.
There was a time when there were a bunch of the polygamist families: my five wives is the one I remember but there were one or two more. They often didn’t last one or two seasons because there was less conflict and none of them took another wife.
I think it’s important you pointed out that every family is different. Also, sometimes things are more common than you might think.
I grew up Ultra Orthodox Jewish and was married off in an arranged marriage when I was nineteen. I’ve had arguments with other women who were raised in the same community who claim that marriages aren’t “really arranged” and certainly never forced. And yet my marriage was arranged as was almost everyone I knew. And yes, many marriages including my own were what I would consider forced. Some families value the happiness of their children and allow them to say no to a prospective match and some don’t. Even within communities that seem very homogeneous, there will still be differences in people’s experiences.
Thank you!
I appreciate the acknowledgment that ALL people and groups have different experiences, good people and bad people among them, etc.
I believe in living your best life and I support any combination of adult relationships / marriages. I mean it's not like monogamous marriage has been all that successful. In fact monogamous marriage has such a poor track record that many young people are rejecting marriage altogether, and as a middle age person, I can't blame them!! My view on life and people is each to his or her own. Just don't intentionally hurt anyone in living your best life.
I was an only child aside for a few years my parents were foster parents, so being an only child having that many siblings is kind of fascinating to me 😳
Me too. I didn’t grow up in any kind of Mormon religion, and I was my mom’s only child. My dad had a son from a prior marriage, and we didn’t really grow up together. It was pretty much just me, so to think of having any siblings around 24/7, let alone having like 20 or 30 siblings is just mind boggling to me. I can’t even imagine what that must be like. I’m sure it has pros and cons. I have four now, and in glad they have the sibling experience that I didn’t have because sometimes I was lonely.
This is why im hoping to create a documentary that really showcases how solid of a community Short Creek had. It's not the members, it was the leadership. And unfortunately the members are the ones suffering the consequences. I still believe Leroy Johnson was the last genuine leader of that faith, where he truly did what he thought was right for that community.
So true and I really hope you can do this documentary!
I think it would be more exaggerated if Sam was the 'odd one out' in terms of leaving. From what I've noticed on TH-cam, there are quite a few people who don't find these groups to be right for them and their lives. It seems like the majority of participants in these groups suffer in some way and that the normal human reaction is to want to get out. My maternal grandfather grew up in southern Idaho in the 1930's/40's and joined the military at 18 to 'escape.' He wasn't raised F/LDS but still wanted out of the prevailing culture.
Great videos, thank you both for your hard work in discussing these difficult topics.
Thank you! 😊
Big Love contains some themes from very dramatic Mormon history. If you know mormon history you'll realise that the producerar knew about Mark Hoffman, LeBarons and the Kingstons for starters.
You might want to check out 'My 5 Wives' reruns. It's centered around Brady Williams & his 'wives'. His wife, Rosemary, accused her dad of molesting her as a child. At the time of the show, Lynn Thompson was the leader of the AUB. I believe they'd formed their family while in the sect & stayed together after they left in the 2000s.
Big Love was entertainment,but in saying that,taught me what I never knew,I'd only ever heard of the LDS,not really aware of polygamy nor FLDS
Do you think that it is possible to live happily in polygamy? The entire family integrated and happy?
I believe that there will always be some jealousy issues but I have seen some very happy families that seemed to have it figured out.
I think by now I’ve learned enough about the FLDS church to say that: Sam, you have an idealized perception of your own upbringing. I understand you wanting to defend your upbringing, but saying your childhood was the norm denies the reality for so so many others. You have said families were not allowed to interact with each other. So being a kid at that time, you don’t really know. You also have the experience of being a male, a good looking boy made u one of the lucky one.
I am a man from China,I had been in monogamy relationship, it is also filled with abusing,cheating,mental violence,manipulation even deception,I think it is not about polygamy or monogamy, it is purely about choosing the right one.
Sister Wives making it sounds as if they were on Utahs most wanted, I lived in Utah polgamy is the worst kept secret, I worked with women in polgamy they were not worried about the law considering we worked in the court system, if the cops were after them it would be more likely they were being served papers on a lawsuit. Utah hasn't prosecuted people for polgamy for years, but there has been polgamous people prosecuted for other things like tax evasion, welfare fraud ,domestic ect but not because they practice polgamy.
Interesting! Thank you for sharing this.
@@notafanofso the old law is back in place? I’m confused.
@@notafanof you need to read the actual case, they weren't being investigated solely on polgamy but other things as suspected welfare fraud, read the article in the Saltlake tribune April 11 2016, the prosecution was looking at Bigamy as an "additional" charge. The allegations were for receiving State benefits through deception, Christine was getting medical through the state for her kids when in Lehi, living in the same home as the father Kody Brown. I wasn't working in the court system then or in that area but had friends that did. It wasn't about all about them being polgamist, there are many closet polgamous professionals living and working in Utah, most don't advertise the 2 women I worked with didn't advertise they were in plural marriage. If you ever lived in Davis CO Utah I guareentee you will meet someone living in plural marriage and most like never know it.Bwt the case was dropped because they moved out of state. One of the ladies is or was a member of the AUB I heard a lot about Kody Brown and his family from her, and no she didn't know Robyn. The lawsuit your referring to was to decriminalize polgamy Christine was a big proponent among other AUB members who had been working on getting a law passed to decriminalize even though Utah was never prosecuting polgamy not since the big ordeal in short creek decades before.
In my opinion ,most of the Mormon families I have seen on the various TH-cam channels make family a priority and have better values than a lot of mainstream families; respectful, kind, good work ethic and seem genuinely kind and honest.
They are talking about FLDS not LDS.
I would love to see the reaction to Ethel from Shameless
Big love made me laugh just by the first ridiculous episode. It’s as made up as the sapranos. I don’t think tlc would be interested in our polygamous family unless they want to come in and film us doing loads of laundry, hundreds of dishes, laughing and singing non stop like my girls, and our boys wrestling. I think sister wives this season speaks for itself how their lives are much more mundane because they just keep showing the same stuff over and over. Yes I agree I can relate a lot more to the Walt seasons vs now.
I am so, so embarrassed to have watched every single episode of sister wives and would be mortified if others in my life found out. Ive tuned in every week for 13 years and that’s no small feat from Western Australia 😂😂😂
Lol we are starting to see why people get hooked on it 😉
I am not a Mormon but am considering moving to southern Utah. I have been told twice now that it is hard to be in Utah as a non mormon as far as jobs and things like that. Do you have any insight or opinions on that?
I think you will still have a great experience in Southern Utah. People are very friendly and I don't think you'll have a hard time getting a job. I think the biggest adjustment will be the culture. The culture is still very Mormon but as long as you are ok having church culture in your everyday life, I think you'll find it's a beautiful place to live!
Curious, could the difference be that men can leave and women have to escape? Men, unless they are direct relatives of the current leader are even sometimes run off and women are needed to produce the chosen kids/people and are treated more like a possession than an individual.
It anecdotally seems to me that the polygamous families I've seen on TV (Sister Wives, Seeking Sister Wife, the Rockland Ranch documentary, etc) have a higher rate of drama/disfunction than the monogamous families I know in my personal life. That said, they're a cherry-picked sample: _these are all people on TV!_
There's all the TV producer machinations you two spoke about. But also, agreeing to be on reality TV takes a certain kind of personality. I would hazard a guess that such people are above average in traits like desire for attention, not thinking through potential consequences, etc. These same traits aren't great for family harmony either.
The most solid polygamous family I can think of are the Winders from _Seeking Sister Wife._ They decided to take a step back because they're sensible and they'd had enough of reality TV. Even when they were on, they got less screen time because they're just too functional and boring. The fact that 2/3 are major introverts also meant they came across as awkward and stilted on camera. Editors gave them less screen time, preferring to focus on more showy personalities. The same traits that I suspect help their family function also make them less desirable as TV subjects.
It may also be extremely different for men and women in those different groups. Women are most valued 8n polygamy because of the perversion of having so many wives.
That's my thought. Firstly, the FLDS is at a point where they can't even pretend to support their male population (if you're supposed to have at least 3 wives to get to the highest degree of glory, that means AT LEAST two thirds of the men have to leave, and leaving voluntarily is easier for everyone than forceable removal), so the loss of a boy like Sam, while sad for the family, helps the community maintain itself in the long run. The loss of a woman - particularly a YOUNG woman who can still have biological children - is far greater. Secondly - I say this coming from a conservative Christian background, though not fundamentalist Mormon background - these groups are much more likely to use force to get girls to follow the rules than boys in part due to girls being so explicitly under authority of their fathers or husbands.
It also seems like women have a harder time understanding that they can leave and having the resources to do so in terms of money and transferrable skills. Men can go out and get a construction job usually. It does seem like "escaping polygamy" is more of mentally leaving in addition to the physical moving out.
In a lot of cases, it is a lot more challenging for girls/women to leave.
I watched all these episodes and I always wondered why they take a truck and try to take everything with them and then like you say “here they come” that part never made sense, if you truly have to escape you’d take some clothes and beat feet.
I think it would be interesting for you to watch My Five Wives and compare Brady to Kody. Such a different feel in the homes and the leadership of each husband
On the list 🙂
Oh you will definitely see the difference ! My Five Wives had mrespect, less drama and so was canceled. It was a great show, good people , hard times but he made it clear every wife was important to him. He also was involved with all the children. I really liked the show but they too left the FLDS
Brady also made a decision about how it was affecting his family and therefore did not renew their contract
And their eldest son joined the LDS Church and left to serve a Mission just as the show was cancelled.
I have a question ? I have watched Sister Wife's from the beginning and what I truly don't understand is Cody has said many times that the wife's can leave and Divorce him at any time. But that he can not leave are Divorce them . Is this a Polygamy or Religious way . Or a Cody thing. I sure hope you can answer this for me Thanks Kay.
Women leaving a marriage in the AUB s acceptable, even though there's still stigms around it. Men leaving is hugely, hugely taboo. They're the priesthood holders, supposed to lead their families and have responsibility for their spiritual welfare. The primary covenant in marriage is with heavenly Father, not the wife. Divorced women in the group are a priority for men to marry, to be a good priesthood holder and make up for the failings of the previous husband and priesthood holder. A man who divorced a woman hasn't just broken his covenant with her, he's breaking his covenant with heavenly Father.
I really get your points, about the music and staging when it comes to reality shows, but feel like you are emphasizing the “not as dangerous or dramatic as it looks” narrative over the “worse than it looks” when personal accounts indicate that sometimes it’s one, sometimes it’s the other. On Amanda’s channel she has indicated that at least as many times it was actually worse, and Michelle said that some things she said in her interview on EP, the producers said were too graphic or extreme to be put on regular television.
Eta: correct me if I’m wrong, the producers on Sister Wives were going at first for a more positive, quirky family thing like the Duggars, and it’s come out that it was a lot more toxic than originally portrayed
What did your kids go out as for Halloween? What did you think of your first Halloween, Sam? Did you always go trick or treating, Melissa?
Me Personally can not watch the whole hour of these shows...., I am looking to learn and understand why People stay in these groups..., and not interested in staged drama for views..., I wish more People were like that and maybe Mr. Cody Brown wouldn't be making $$$ along with TLC...., I appreciate when You both have People and Families' come on, I feel I am listening to more of the truth..., My Opinion..., Thank You.
Just a note, you mentioned polygamy in a context beyond the LDS faith. I, on the other hand, am a Muslim, born of Somali ethnicity in Kenya, and I became a naturalized American citizen at the age of 10. I am married to a white American convert from my adoptive state, Minnesota, and from time to time, I visit Kenya - where I am currently visiting family, including 2 of my father's wives.
Polygamy is a practice accepted in Islam as a legtimate marital institution, although it's not necessarily encouraged. According to Orthodox scholars, it is permissible as long as a man can provide for up to four wives and doesn't show favoritism. Additionally, polygamy is only suitable for those who find it culturally acceptable. This is what the religion teaches.
However, what people actually do can be a different story. In my family, my father has three wives, but he falls short in meeting his responsibilities, resulting in rather unhappy marriages. My husband hails from a cultural background where polygamy is unfamiliar, and I myself find it to be an unusual practice. Yet, I must acknowledge that I've encountered, though rarely, polygamous families where it seems to function. The challenges they face are distinct, but somehow, they make it work.
Love your channel. You are such a sweet couple.
Thank you! ❤️
Have you watched Seeking Sister Wife? Another show on polygamy ..
I got so tired of the Sister Wives director using the scene of Meri closing the truck with the police sirens blaring when they were leaving for Vegas. They played it over and over again in many episodes. It was so obviously staged.
Sam, not that your family and community weren’t sad and upset when you left, but would the reaction have been different if you were a woman?
I just don’t see Polygamy being healthy the women deal with a lot of loneliness, the expectations of men is completely unrealistic and ten the children are brought into a world where there’s just not enough time and energy for them to be raised into healthy adults and someday parents who are literally taught to be a version of Stepford wives/families 😢💔💔😢
The reality tv shows are so heavily over produced. I prefer documentary type shows & GUIP.
Me too. I prefer documentaries as well.
I don’t like reality tv
How sad. That's how you wife thinks. If that's not forced to leave. I've got my secretive girlfriend ok then why she a secret?