So there IS a benevolent God. And seeing my suffering She leadeth me unto TH-cam, unto the path of antinatalist interviews, so that I shall no longer feel so alone. Thanks for the interview.
I think people who fight his position are in the dark regarding the horrors that take place on this planet every single day. Ignorance is utter bliss for them.
They are socially indoctrinated and biologically programmed to believe that life is a wonderful and great thing which have kept us continuing to live and produce offsprings. A serious cognitive dissonance that makes them think that there really is a point to this cycle of suffering.
A radio host would be unemployed if he wasn’t a chipper extrovert. One personal warning anecdote among many which I’ve experienced and would like to share is, decades ago I observed that my barber was being subtly and overtly bullied by his coworkers. One day he invited me to his home because I was in real estate. There I met his wife and severely physically and mentally handicapped, wheelchair bound young daughter who’d been struck by a car after chasing a ball onto the road. The young girl would be dependent on her parents and society for the rest of her life. His coworkers were making fun of him every day of his working life because of his misfortune. This is the reality of our existence. For anyone whose ever been seriously been bullied as a youth, don’t think things always get better as you get older because unfortunately they don’t always. Beneath the thin veneer of civility life can be truly brutal.
Stanley Kubrick So sorry to hear this about your poor brother. Thanks for sharing an example of life's cruel reality. Life is indeed cruel, unjust and peppered with corruption and parasitic materialistic greedy users. To my dear unborn child ......It is love that will ensure you are never born to experience this harsh life with all its suffering.
I think Prof Benatar was perfectly correct to make his views known . When I was about 6 ( 60 years ago !) I had this flash of realisation that life is essentially meaningless . Moreover we have little idea about that thing on which our life depends ie consciousness and we exist in a universe that we barely understand . So we don't know who we are and we don't know where we are and existence itself is meaningless - apart from the meanings we give it . Not a good place to be - and that's before we talk about the asymmetry of suffering . I have found some peace in eastern philosophy because they at least are explicit that life in the world is full of suffering . I never really discussed my feelings with anyone but I was determined that I wouldn't inflict life on another being . When I first came across David on TH-cam I was amazed and reassured that antinatalism was a thing . Moreover I was shocked in the Comments section that there were thousands of people who shared his and my views . Incidentally I did an undergraduate philosophy course many years ago , one section of which was on Schopenhauer. On that course they taught his ' idealism ' but never mentioned his antinatalism. It is still a very taboo subject .✌️🕊️
A classic Christian for example risks by procreating to condemn someone to eternal torture in hell. The sheer possibility I`d say should make Christians even more antinatalists.
Alas, committed Christians would argue that anti-natalism prevents both the "infinite bad" of Hell and the "infinite good" of Heaven. In other words, they would argue that eternal Heaven and eternal Hell are symmetric outcomes.
@@vau0807 They are ignoring the third part of the equation, non-existence, which doesn't desire heaven at all and therefore cannot suffer the deprivation of eternal pleasure.
David doesn't need to justify his position so much. It's enough that severe suffering is possible and no one knows the future. Heroes will make the best of it but the point is non-heroes can't opt out of being born.
There is some argument from David Benatar that I do not like, to put knowlage on the scale of nothing and omniscient. Also do not like the argument of eternity. Both is utopian fantasies and eternity is not even an end point on a scale. Rather the measurement should be at least in what humans so far have been capable of (most educated, longest life). Do not know how to measure that, though, also problematic.
When I was a mysotheist/maltheist, I thought this was the way to defeat the creator demiurge/ "God." Simply stop feeding the god abuse victims. However, I came to understand there is no _a priori_ creator god, and there probably isn't a "great universe maker" from another universe either. Eventually, and I've already started; but when I get enough funding and resources, I seek to discover how to make a person functionally and practically indestructible. No pain, the only suffering remaining would be curiosity, and with an asymptotically infinite Universe to learn how to explore, I'm sure that's the solution to this problem. In the meantime, having more children and multiplying the suffering is mindlessly stupid. It's so bad I don't think it even qualifies as sentient to keep doing it, once one realizes the monstrosity of it.
Where I disagree is when he says it is allright to adopt children. I think by doing so we would be encouraging others to procreate irresponsibly. Seeing their own children suffer is a necessary punishment upon procreators.
I cant tell if this is a joke , but. Biological parents are strongly discouraged from seeing their children. Or sometimes the reason the child is.in foster care is because ths parent dies. Uniromically, Cut the edgy memes, if you're an antinatalist the best thing you can do is advocate with tact. It's the best way to.convice the gen pop.
8:17 I think he's wrong there and that Benatar is _greatly_ underestimating the problem. I think *if* materialism is true _(in the sense that there is no consequence of one's actions and decisions for oneself beyond the death of this body)_ *then* it is better in _every_ case to commit suicide, the sooner the better. The only reason I don't do it is because I am not certain that materialism is true. In fact, I see strong indicators of the opposite. So suicide could in principle make existence even worse.
The other reason not doing it is because contrary to popular belief its not easy: you have to defeat your biology-inbuilt drive to survive, the revulsion of body-envelope violation, and in addition is very hard to find reliable information about (let alone the means) effective, quick and painless methods in the wake of which you dont end up a vegetable or a forced "patient" in some mental ward. In other words, you underestimate the cost of a suicide-attempt. Theoretically there may be nothing wrong with suicide, and materialism is 99% true as far as I can tell, but to actually do it requires plenty of guts and plenty of work - well, at least in the case one would do it from a position of rational deliberation.
@Hypatia: I don't see that as a big problem. Heroin overdose comes to mind, that isn't so hard. The one major obstacle is that materialism almost certainly isn't true, but its truth would have to be absolutely certain to make suicide feasible. _"materialism is 99% true as far as I can tell"_ I would be crying tears of joy if it were so, but alas, you haven't seriously dealt with the issue then, IMO. But let's not go there since we both agree on the essential point that we have no certainty that it _is_ true which would be necessary.
I have no idea from where to procure heroin for example, the small European town where I live probably does not even have a black market of sorts, and even if it has, I would have no clue where to find them, and this is probably true for most people - not to mention the risk of being caught with it and imprisoned - as I said the risks are high. Even if I would have the necessary amount and know-how to use it for the purpose, I`d still have to confront my own irrational survival instinct, deal with some relationships and so forth...Again, its not easy to voluntarily die, even if a more reasonable society would lift the tacit suicide prevention and prohibition policies and wouldn't force people to sneak like thieves around the law to simply live with their basic right to chose between existing or not. As per materialism, I can assure you that I dealt with it more seriously than you`d expect, given that I majored in philosophy. My 1% uncertainty is simply a nod to the idea that perfect knowledge is elusive to say the least. But I am as convinced of physicalism being true as I possibly can, I am probably more convinced by it being the case than about *anything* else.
_"I have no idea from where to procure heroin for example"_ You'd go to a bigger town then and associate with the circles there. Imprisonment still comes after a crime, but you'd only have to take the overdose once. Who cares if they put a corpse in jail then ? A majoring in philosophy itself doesn't necessarily guarantee a talent for strict analytical thinking. I am a mathematician and studied the mind body problem in depth. The obvious result was that _all_ materialistic and dualistic solutions are beset with inconsistency and incoherence, making the only option left obviously the only solution - which of course hardly anyone in academia is allowed to talk about without losing his reputation. To say that you are convinced of physicalism, for instance, has absolutely no bearing on the question of survival since "physical" is metaphysically empty of meaning. All it means is that any view out has a view in correlate - which could very well include survival since the type of consciousness corresponding to the brain (note that I am not saying "caused by") is not at all certain to be the only thinkable one. Also, no intelligent analytical philosopher has ever been able to identify anything physical which would satisfy the condition of being demonstrably absolutely dead and free of proto-mental qualities. But those materialists don't even notice that they ascribe fundamental reality to complete abstractions (which are mental products, mind you), and that is what their materialism rests on. How 1000s of academics manage to collectively maintain that degree of utter stupidity is beyond me, but I guess it rests of the usual psychological mechanisms of herd instincts and wanting to keep their jobs without heavy lifting.
"Imprisonment still comes after a crime...Who cares if they put a corpse in jail" You may risk being caught beforehand. "doesn't necessarily guarantee a talent for strict analytical thinking" Of course not, it neither precludes it tho, in fact it kinda requires it. I also studied the mind-body problem in depth, I even wrote my masters`s thesis in that field. Philosophy is at any rate more concerned with the problem than mathematics is. My findings pointed exactly to the opposite conclusion, I find all forms of idealisms and dualisms as gravely mistaken and irretrievably inconsistent and incoherent. "since "physical" is metaphysically empty of meaning" I am not sure what you mean by "metaphysical", but in philosophy proper we use that term synonymously with pre-Kantian "ontology" based on Aristotle`s "ta meta ta phusika", referring to the study of beings as beings. Taken as such, physicalism is simply one - the more rational and evidentiated one - view about the fundamental nature of reality. "Also, no intelligent analytical philosopher...." I must have been convinced by the unintelligent ones I suppose. "All it means is that any view out has a view in correlate -" This sentence has no discernible meaning. "How 1000s of academics manage to collectively maintain that degree of utter stupidity is beyond me" That alone should rather give you a healthy doze of skepticism regarding the quality of your deliberations. No offense to your self-declared super-intelligence of course, but you have not convinced me about the legitimacy of occupying that higher shelf to those utterly stupid 1000s of academics. "those materialists don't even notice that they ascribe fundamental reality to complete abstractions" As opposed to ascribing reality to spiritual realms, souls and consciousnesses floating in some supernatural aether? You are quite funny, in a rather disappointing way. "I consider you stupid beyond belief" Based on our rather short parlor, I am afraid the feeling is mutual. "Our conversation can therefore serve no further purpose" This is something about which I am almost as convinced as about the truth of materialism. "survival instict vis a vis the suffering that would otherwise ensue can ever be a serious obstacle to your suicide" It is quite a huge obstacle for all otherwise healthy organisms. Going against one`s biological imperative/drive to survive and against the inbuilt psychological revulsion of being subjected to serious harm can only be defeated by a huge amount of suffering imposed or in case sufficient suffering is not around, then a great deal of mental effort, courage and rational preparation. At this point you betray a remarkably low level of maturity and experience, accompanied with your seemingly habitual preference for making grant statements and claims without any substantiation given whatsoever. "I believe you are deluding yourself" I guess its now worth pointing out how ironical this is coming from someone convinced by crypto-religious supernaturalism. In my book all religions and associated mystical belief-structures are in fact psychologically motivated death-denying answers to the cognitive dissonance between our knowledge of our finitude and our biologically programmed incentive to survive at all costs. Your position is basically the definition of being deluded. "So your fear of suicide is..." Everything after this is a worthless armchair-psychologizing of my stance, utterly illogical, self-aggrandizing display of intellectual dishonesty and arrogance. I can assure you that I am a materialist, and nothing in your incoherent ramble above dissuaded me from that perspective on the nature of reality. In fact it gave me ample evidence, that you have no idea what modern materialism holds, nor are you in any way fit intellectually to tackle such complex ideas. So I agree, we are done! Cheers!
@@liteviews4493 whoa not like that bro. I mean like after you do a massive hike or walk that involves suffering yet after we get accomplishment after suffering
![ไปอยู่ไสมา - ช๊อปเปอร์ โตเกียวมิวสิค [ OFFICIAL MUSIC VIDEO ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sWuVNbRTJbc/mqdefault.jpg)
David benatar is like a Guy who goes to people drunk at a party and tell them alcohol is harm while they are dancing 😭
Benatar's logic is airtight, in spite of the resistance towards his position.
It is. People try so hard. They always fail.
I'm so glad the interviewer didn't turn this into a debate. I enjoyed it.
Claudia MM yes, unlike sam harris.
So there IS a benevolent God. And seeing my suffering She leadeth me unto TH-cam, unto the path of antinatalist interviews, so that I shall no longer feel so alone. Thanks for the interview.
I really do think life is a ponzi scheme. Great analogy.
I think people who fight his position are in the dark regarding the horrors that take place on this planet every single day. Ignorance is utter bliss for them.
They are socially indoctrinated and biologically programmed to believe that life is a wonderful and great thing which have kept us continuing to live and produce offsprings. A serious cognitive dissonance that makes them think that there really is a point to this cycle of suffering.
A radio host would be unemployed if he wasn’t a chipper extrovert.
One personal warning anecdote among many which I’ve experienced and would like to share is, decades ago I observed that my barber was being subtly and overtly bullied by his coworkers. One day he invited me to his home because I was in real estate. There I met his wife and severely physically and mentally handicapped, wheelchair bound young daughter who’d been struck by a car after chasing a ball onto the road. The young girl would be dependent on her parents and society for the rest of her life. His coworkers were making fun of him every day of his working life because of his misfortune. This is the reality of our existence. For anyone whose ever been seriously been bullied as a youth, don’t think things always get better as you get older because unfortunately they don’t always. Beneath the thin veneer of civility life can be truly brutal.
Stanley Kubrick
So sorry to hear this about your poor brother. Thanks for sharing an example of life's cruel reality. Life is indeed cruel, unjust and peppered with corruption and parasitic materialistic greedy users.
To my dear unborn child ......It is love that will ensure you are never born to experience this harsh life with all its suffering.
I think Prof Benatar was perfectly correct to make his views known . When I was about 6 ( 60 years ago !) I had this flash of realisation that life is essentially meaningless . Moreover we have little idea about that thing on which our life depends ie consciousness and we exist in a universe that we barely understand . So we don't know who we are and we don't know where we are and existence itself is meaningless - apart from the meanings we give it . Not a good place to be - and that's before we talk about the asymmetry of suffering . I have found some peace in eastern philosophy because they at least are explicit that life in the world is full of suffering . I never really discussed my feelings with anyone but I was determined that I wouldn't inflict life on another being . When I first came across David on TH-cam I was amazed and reassured that antinatalism was a thing . Moreover I was shocked in the Comments section that there were thousands of people who shared his and my views . Incidentally I did an undergraduate philosophy course many years ago , one section of which was on Schopenhauer. On that course they taught his ' idealism ' but never mentioned his antinatalism. It is still a very taboo subject .✌️🕊️
rock solid interview
A classic Christian for example risks by procreating to condemn someone to eternal torture in hell. The sheer possibility I`d say should make Christians even more antinatalists.
Hypatia same with muslims & even Buddhist😎🙌
This is a really great argument.
Alas, committed Christians would argue that anti-natalism prevents both the "infinite bad" of Hell and the "infinite good" of Heaven. In other words, they would argue that eternal Heaven and eternal Hell are symmetric outcomes.
@@vau0807 They are ignoring the third part of the equation, non-existence, which doesn't desire heaven at all and therefore cannot suffer the deprivation of eternal pleasure.
I agree. I'm an anti-natalist and reverted to Christianity partially from fear of Hell.
Thanks for uploading this! :)
David doesn't need to justify his position so much. It's enough that severe suffering is possible and no one knows the future.
Heroes will make the best of it but the point is non-heroes can't opt out of being born.
thanks for uploading this
THE BEST EXISTENCE IS NONE EXISTENCE.
KNOW LIFE, KNOW PAIN.
NO LIFE, NO PAIN.
I wish i could click that Like Button more often
प्रजननविरोधी
did not know that anti-natalism had a hindi word. nice ! i speak it ...
this book is mad least to say. Very good actually!
There is some argument from David Benatar that I do not like, to put knowlage on the scale of nothing and omniscient. Also do not like the argument of eternity. Both is utopian fantasies and eternity is not even an end point on a scale. Rather the measurement should be at least in what humans so far have been capable of (most educated, longest life). Do not know how to measure that, though, also problematic.
When I was a mysotheist/maltheist, I thought this was the way to defeat the creator demiurge/ "God."
Simply stop feeding the god abuse victims.
However, I came to understand there is no _a priori_ creator god, and there probably isn't a "great universe maker" from another universe either. Eventually, and I've already started; but when I get enough funding and resources, I seek to discover how to make a person functionally and practically indestructible. No pain, the only suffering remaining would be curiosity, and with an asymptotically infinite Universe to learn how to explore, I'm sure that's the solution to this problem.
In the meantime, having more children and multiplying the suffering is mindlessly stupid. It's so bad I don't think it even qualifies as sentient to keep doing it, once one realizes the monstrosity of it.
Where I disagree is when he says it is allright to adopt children. I think by doing so we would be encouraging others to procreate irresponsibly. Seeing their own children suffer is a necessary punishment upon procreators.
I cant tell if this is a joke , but. Biological parents are strongly discouraged from seeing their children. Or sometimes the reason the child is.in foster care is because ths parent dies. Uniromically, Cut the edgy memes, if you're an antinatalist the best thing you can do is advocate with tact. It's the best way to.convice the gen pop.
8:17 I think he's wrong there and that Benatar is _greatly_ underestimating the problem. I think *if* materialism is true _(in the sense that there is no consequence of one's actions and decisions for oneself beyond the death of this body)_ *then* it is better in _every_ case to commit suicide, the sooner the better. The only reason I don't do it is because I am not certain that materialism is true. In fact, I see strong indicators of the opposite. So suicide could in principle make existence even worse.
The other reason not doing it is because contrary to popular belief its not easy: you have to defeat your biology-inbuilt drive to survive, the revulsion of body-envelope violation, and in addition is very hard to find reliable information about (let alone the means) effective, quick and painless methods in the wake of which you dont end up a vegetable or a forced "patient" in some mental ward. In other words, you underestimate the cost of a suicide-attempt. Theoretically there may be nothing wrong with suicide, and materialism is 99% true as far as I can tell, but to actually do it requires plenty of guts and plenty of work - well, at least in the case one would do it from a position of rational deliberation.
@Hypatia: I don't see that as a big problem. Heroin overdose comes to mind, that isn't so hard. The one major obstacle is that materialism almost certainly isn't true, but its truth would have to be absolutely certain to make suicide feasible. _"materialism is 99% true as far as I can tell"_ I would be crying tears of joy if it were so, but alas, you haven't seriously dealt with the issue then, IMO. But let's not go there since we both agree on the essential point that we have no certainty that it _is_ true which would be necessary.
I have no idea from where to procure heroin for example, the small European town where I live probably does not even have a black market of sorts, and even if it has, I would have no clue where to find them, and this is probably true for most people - not to mention the risk of being caught with it and imprisoned - as I said the risks are high. Even if I would have the necessary amount and know-how to use it for the purpose, I`d still have to confront my own irrational survival instinct, deal with some relationships and so forth...Again, its not easy to voluntarily die, even if a more reasonable society would lift the tacit suicide prevention and prohibition policies and wouldn't force people to sneak like thieves around the law to simply live with their basic right to chose between existing or not.
As per materialism, I can assure you that I dealt with it more seriously than you`d expect, given that I majored in philosophy. My 1% uncertainty is simply a nod to the idea that perfect knowledge is elusive to say the least. But I am as convinced of physicalism being true as I possibly can, I am probably more convinced by it being the case than about *anything* else.
_"I have no idea from where to procure heroin for example"_ You'd go to a bigger town then and associate with the circles there. Imprisonment still comes after a crime, but you'd only have to take the overdose once. Who cares if they put a corpse in jail then ?
A majoring in philosophy itself doesn't necessarily guarantee a talent for strict analytical thinking. I am a mathematician and studied the mind body problem in depth. The obvious result was that _all_ materialistic and dualistic solutions are beset with inconsistency and incoherence, making the only option left obviously the only solution - which of course hardly anyone in academia is allowed to talk about without losing his reputation.
To say that you are convinced of physicalism, for instance, has absolutely no bearing on the question of survival since "physical" is metaphysically empty of meaning. All it means is that any view out has a view in correlate - which could very well include survival since the type of consciousness corresponding to the brain (note that I am not saying "caused by") is not at all certain to be the only thinkable one. Also, no intelligent analytical philosopher has ever been able to identify anything physical which would satisfy the condition of being demonstrably absolutely dead and free of proto-mental qualities.
But those materialists don't even notice that they ascribe fundamental reality to complete abstractions (which are mental products, mind you), and that is what their materialism rests on. How 1000s of academics manage to collectively maintain that degree of utter stupidity is beyond me, but I guess it rests of the usual psychological mechanisms of herd instincts and wanting to keep their jobs without heavy lifting.
"Imprisonment still comes after a crime...Who cares if they put a corpse in jail"
You may risk being caught beforehand.
"doesn't necessarily guarantee a talent for strict analytical thinking"
Of course not, it neither precludes it tho, in fact it kinda requires it. I also studied the mind-body problem in depth, I even wrote my masters`s thesis in that field. Philosophy is at any rate more concerned with the problem than mathematics is. My findings pointed exactly to the opposite conclusion, I find all forms of idealisms and dualisms as gravely mistaken and irretrievably inconsistent and incoherent.
"since "physical" is metaphysically empty of meaning"
I am not sure what you mean by "metaphysical", but in philosophy proper we use that term synonymously with pre-Kantian "ontology" based on Aristotle`s "ta meta ta phusika", referring to the study of beings as beings. Taken as such, physicalism is simply one - the more rational and evidentiated one - view about the fundamental nature of reality.
"Also, no intelligent analytical philosopher...."
I must have been convinced by the unintelligent ones I suppose.
"All it means is that any view out has a view in correlate -"
This sentence has no discernible meaning.
"How 1000s of academics manage to collectively maintain that degree of utter stupidity is beyond me"
That alone should rather give you a healthy doze of skepticism regarding the quality of your deliberations. No offense to your self-declared super-intelligence of course, but you have not convinced me about the legitimacy of occupying that higher shelf to those utterly stupid 1000s of academics.
"those materialists don't even notice that they ascribe fundamental reality to complete abstractions"
As opposed to ascribing reality to spiritual realms, souls and consciousnesses floating in some supernatural aether? You are quite funny, in a rather disappointing way.
"I consider you stupid beyond belief"
Based on our rather short parlor, I am afraid the feeling is mutual.
"Our conversation can therefore serve no further purpose"
This is something about which I am almost as convinced as about the truth of materialism.
"survival instict vis a vis the suffering that would otherwise ensue can ever be a serious obstacle to your suicide"
It is quite a huge obstacle for all otherwise healthy organisms. Going against one`s biological imperative/drive to survive and against the inbuilt psychological revulsion of being subjected to serious harm can only be defeated by a huge amount of suffering imposed or in case sufficient suffering is not around, then a great deal of mental effort, courage and rational preparation.
At this point you betray a remarkably low level of maturity and experience, accompanied with your seemingly habitual preference for making grant statements and claims without any substantiation given whatsoever.
"I believe you are deluding yourself"
I guess its now worth pointing out how ironical this is coming from someone convinced by crypto-religious supernaturalism.
In my book all religions and associated mystical belief-structures are in fact psychologically motivated death-denying answers to the cognitive dissonance between our knowledge of our finitude and our biologically programmed incentive to survive at all costs. Your position is basically the definition of being deluded.
"So your fear of suicide is..."
Everything after this is a worthless armchair-psychologizing of my stance, utterly illogical, self-aggrandizing display of intellectual dishonesty and arrogance.
I can assure you that I am a materialist, and nothing in your incoherent ramble above dissuaded me from that perspective on the nature of reality. In fact it gave me ample evidence, that you have no idea what modern materialism holds, nor are you in any way fit intellectually to tackle such complex ideas.
So I agree, we are done! Cheers!
This is so wrong. Living is pleasure
For you.
@@finn-pt3ux well no. Its in our head to take certain suffering as pleasure
@@4doorsmorewhores298 in your subjective psyche
@@4doorsmorewhores298 masochist
@@liteviews4493 whoa not like that bro. I mean like after you do a massive hike or walk that involves suffering yet after we get accomplishment after suffering