So, what kind of updates are you looking to get from Harley? Appearance, tech, mechanical? I mean i know the price is a real problem. But, in your opinion, is there anything they can do in bike design to mitigate that concern for you?
By far, I'd say HD's biggest problem is they continue to "price people out" of their line up. However the " Basic" 2025 Nightster starts at $10,499 which is less than the $12,249 MSRP of my 2022 Iron 883 Sportster. The biggest issue I have with them, there is always a lot of things that need to be changed on any factory bike you get from them. the best example on my 883 the seat is nice for about 10 minutes in then it feels like a steel rail. They finally upped all the line up to all LED lighting, which is good. Overall what they seem to be doing is the same thing all the automobile manufacturers are doing, they only want to make and stock stuff that has all the gingerbread options and gee wiz stuff for an added premium. The Road King looks like it's on its way out, only bike in the line up with the 114 engine, maybe just to get rid of 114 stock. They did that with the Standard Softail with the 107 in 2024 which is no longer in the line up. To tell the truth, it looks like all HD really wants to do is push everyone into a Road Glide being it seems to be the only bike they like talking about. They also seem to be all over the place with the options and build outs of the bikes, never quite hitting the mark. For me it's a love hate relationship, I hate all the stuff I have to put money into to make the bike into the HD I've always known and loved.
First of all love the comment and agree with all, my opinion is similar and what I would like for people to stop buying HD at all and force them to lower the prices. That is the only way something will change. Here in EU prices of HD are even crazier , you can buy good car for one HD.
@@Joke89ful hd vs car; it;s always been that way at least for the last 100 years. if demand for bikes were like that of a cars, it would be a different story
The new Road Glide is SOOOO GOOOOD though! So good I bought one. Best bike I've had in my life. I've been riding for 25 years, and I've owned a ton of bikes. Even used to race superbikes (not pro but only at the club level)... But the new Road Glide is just so great all around us hard to ignore! Comfortable, powerful, rides great, awesome tech, immense aftermarket, top tier fit and finish... Everything. And it'll run for 150k miles or more unless you start dicking with it.
I honestly used to be one of those Harley haters… then I test ride a 48 sporty. Coming from a Ninja 1000 to that was crazy. Ninja was fast, comfy and all round… soulless. The 48? I took it for an hour. It shook at traffic lights, rumbled and burbled on and off throttle. Came back with a stupid big grin. It wasn’t just a bike. It was a Harley. I finally understood it. Yeah, 50ish hp vs 100, but I don’t ride spec sheets. I got hooked. Since then I’ve had 2 deluxes, a 72, fatbob, heritage, roadglide, fxdrs and now a street glide st 117. I love them. And honestly, once you ride baggers, everything else can’t compete. I can load up my bags, lock em. GPS and radio, cruise, hill hold, etc… clip on/off tourpak when wife wants to come along. It’s stable, responsive, comfortable and plenty fast. I can get on in all weather and ride comfortably. I can (and do) ride up and down the length of Queensland at a moments notice. Can’t really do that on most bikes without oodles of 3rd party, teeny luggage.
Normally my bike is a '23 TransAlp and it does everything I need easily: Long trips, highway commute, filtering through traffic, and it's both nimble, comfortable and fuel efficient to boot. However, despite being exhausting to lug through traffic, comfortable only until you hit a bad patch of road/highway (of which there are a lot in my region), at constant risk of something going wrong due to age on long trips, and burning gas because it's not running an optimal tune (in a country where good Harley tuners are either dead or on the opposite end of the landmass), my dad's '99 Road King is still my comfort bike that I like taking out just for shits, giggles, and a good time.
Sounds like you just changed riding styles, which is totally fine. I told my friends if I ever buy a bagger, take me out back and put me out my misery because I’ve obviously lost my mind. Just not for me.
@ have you ridden one? I’ve done sport bikes, tourers, motards, scooters, nakeds… all ok machines. But don’t match the comfort and versatility of a bagger. I sold my road glide and got the fatbob and heritage to see if having a smaller bike was easier. Nope. Got the street glide instead. It’s the best all rounder machine (apart from gnarly dirt or track work). I’ve done gravel roads on em. Love em. Comfort and it’s damn easy to ride.
@@chorseundgrd I’ve met guys with that same thought. They get bored of bikes and rather than “be seen dead” on a cruiser, they stop riding. And either never get back into it, or try to capture their youth on another litre bike in their 70s.
@@jamesbthejoke5614 I can’t ride a liter bike forever. I’m not delusional. My knees remind me. But I’d rather buy a Multistrada than a bagger. The size and weight don’t apply to me and I don’t like the way they look. They’re great bikes, but there’s a dozen and one bikes I’d rather ride than a bagger. It’s just not my riding style.
Always seemed like such an easy thing to make a Scrambler version of the Sporty in its last few years; my go to was "Why don't they build their version of an FTR?" only to see Indian is stopping production on them. Tough industry.
70 years old, I've got 27 motorcycles in my life. I started when I was 18 with a used 120cc Suzuki. After that a brand new 550 Suzuki after that it was a series of used bikes one of which was a 1982 Harley flh. Compared to the Z1 which I also had in my garage at the time it was ridiculously outdated but I could not believe I was always choosing the Harley even though it vibrated all to hell and broke down frequently. Multiple new and used Japanese and European sport bikes followed but I missed the feel of a Harley-Davidson. I came party back in 2006 with a Buell XB 12X. Much better reliability by then and the handling was very confidence inspiring even though I had just sold my R1. I then bought a new 2009 XR 1200 Sportster and ended up putting 27000 miles on it, not fast at all but just so satisfying to ride! I then traded for a new Tuono Factory in 2017 and that was easily the best overall bike I have ever owned. That thing just always had me laughing in my helmet at how good it was but I knew somehow I would have another Harley-Davidson and sure enough in 2022 I bought a new Road King. Yes I miss the instantaneous passing power, telepathic handling and other worldly braking power but I have no regrets. I know exactly what you are talking about.
I feel like Harley updates their bikes more often than other brands. Not just colors, but engines, options, entire models. There's a quote that says "Americans buy horsepower and drive torque". Harley riders buy torque and ride torque. They know that torque makes it easier to ride around town, easier to pull out of curves on a backroad, and easier to have a passenger and luggage on a long ride. I genuinely believe cruisers fit the riding most people do, whether they want to admit to themselves or not. The price is the problem.
Come on Harleys have been slow for the last 80 years with the exception of just the last few years.. yet they still can't handle curves. 18 Wheelers have torque from 855 Cubic Inch Engines with high compression and Turbo Chargers..
Tell me you know nothing about the motorcycle industry without telling me you know nothing, “Harley updates their bikes more often than other brands” you having a laugh?
They do make changes year over year. Some years it's more aesthetic than anything, but they're main go to is bumping displacement instead of altering the steering geometry which would drastically improve the bike's performance.
@@spitescorner I don't consider color and paint schemes an update.. Nor adding to the bore and stroke of the same engine. Indian has forced them to use better suspension components and even better brakes. Now that's an upgrade. Look at the Evolution of the Yamaha R-1 or the FZ-07 in USA where ABS was an option and the MT-07 in Europe where ABS was mandatory. Finally Inverted front forks. Now an auto shifting transmission which I don't want. A little stiffer frame better headlight .. all LED lights.
Great video Spite. Trashing is easy but a healthy debate is always the best choice. I love Harleys but have always been critical of them. I like a lot of other brands, I like the innovation, the tech, the cool stuff they provide, but somehow I am still drawn to Harley. Can't say I'm terribly surprised that I ended up on a Pan America after owning a few air cooled Harleys in a row.
I totally get what your saying .I’d love to see Harley make a naked bike out of the new nightster or something like that so they could reach more riders. I have a 07 nightster 1200 that’s been sitting for about a year and you getting your sporty lit the fire for me to do a club build on it that will be done soon so thanks 🤘🏼
You know it's long past sell point for a 500 pound naked bike with that motor lol.... competition has already blown that out of the water. They needed that around 2018 and then needed to refine it into the year we're in now. The PanAM is a legitimately good bike for the sector it's in tho. I haven't ridden it, but have seen them in the wild and they are very nice.
Many complain about the Harley's price - so lets get real. As of 2025, we are living in an age where a Royal Enfield bike is inching close to USD $10K, a BMW GS is at $32~36k (out of the dealer with taxes + fees), and a Honda Civic is $34k or more (yes, an EX-L model here in Glendale CA with taxes and fees!!)...and a gallon of gas here in California is...don't even get me started. Price has gone up for everything - and I think, given what it offers, Harley is priced pretty competitively. Motorcycling is not a cheap hobby, if you want a low price budget option for commuting, there are plenty of good options for your in used market (which I am a fan of) - but if you want something that makes you happy whether it's Harley, Ducati, or any other overpriced over-hyped "Prada" of a brand bike that offers its own charm and feelings - what ever makes you happy is your bike, then it's worth every single cent you paid for. Life is just too short - so get out there and ride what you love. No matter what everyone says, Harley Davidson still makes more profit than KTM and BMW Motorrad combined - yes they are having a tough time, but so as every other manufacturer as well.
Not a big fan of Harley's, or big cruisers in general, but the Pan America has tempted me, especially with lightly used near new examples going for half their original purchase price over here. What would get me over the line though is a new XR using the Rev Max 975, and I'm sure I'm not alone there. An Evel tribute version would be perfect for next year, although they shouldn't wait longer. 2027 would be a "problematic" anniversary.
It’s actually one of the HD products that shows quality. Unfortunately they don’t sell well. Good news with that you can get one reasonable priced on used market.
My neighbour had one, engine crank ovaled out destroying itself. Couldn’t get a new engine so they gave him a brand new one, then has been plagued with electrical faults for a year…
With a background in 2 stroke dirt bikes and mostly Japanese inline 4s and Moto Guzzi's, I was not looking for a Harley but bought a 2009 Softail Custom because it was a 'good deal'. After riding it for the first time about a week ago, I'm hooked! It is super comfortable, has torque right off idle, and makes That Sound! As high priced as the new HDs are, the used ones are super cheap right now and a great way for someone to get to know the brand and see if it's for them.
Harleys aren't bad bikes. They are just more expensive than bikes that are better. That's why a lot of people like myself just can't bring themselves to buy one.
Adam Sandoval dropped a video a bit ago where he tried to defend the "value proposition" of Harley motorcycles by saying that they HOLD their value well. It was frustrating because he basically totally ignored what MOST people use as the definition of value proposition in this context. Which is Harleys, by and large, are too expensive for the performance you get. Yes Harleys hold their value better, and guess what that means to someone wanting to experience the brand? Even the used ones are more expensive. Meaning older Harleys with even less performance that the new Harleys cost more than brand new bikes from other brands with much better performance. It was a frustrating video because I respect Adam and his content. It's NOT controversial to say that Harley is a pretty bad value proposition when compared to other brands.
I didn't buy a Street Glide because I wanted a Harley, I bought a Harley because I wanted a Street Glide. There's just something about riding a Harley that feels different. Whether it's character of the bikes, the potato-potato sound, or something else... I'm not quite sure. But I've ridden other bikes, and still own a Kawasaki Vulcan 800... and I almost always hop on the Harley. They're not perfect, but they're the perfect bike for my style of riding, and with all the latest tech updates, the prices are almost justified [I mean, who WOULDN'T want motorcycles to be cheaper?]. I think it was Jerry Palladino who recently compared old and new Harley MSRPs, and adjusting for inflation, the new ones were the same or cheaper - with all the upgrades made over the past decade or so! Great video, Spite :D
Look, I am not an HD fan. You can 100% blame it on the cultist culture. The product is fine, for touring and being loud. I'm a conservative Texan and I still feel this way. I don't see any way out of the hole they've dug for themselves. It's crazy, but true. My friend's dad always preferred Triumphs to HD, and he started riding in the 60s. I love my Sv650 and Africa Twin. I would proudly own an Indian too. Interpret that how you will.
Want a HD but cant afford one. Maybe their business plan is just to be a premium brand like Ducati, BMW, MV Augusta.HD is like Gibson is in the guitar industry. So afraid to go innovative and cut the prices and damage the brand name. The hardcore fans dont want changes and therefore nothing gonna happened. They rather sell less bikes for more money. Its always about big money.
I'm at a point where I'm having back issues. I don't need to deal with a heavy bike. Also the feet forward position is hard on my back. I do like the new PanAm ST though. I don't ride off road and this new rim size is more suited for on road. I do like the taller windshield though on the standard model. The price is a little high, but when you compare it to a bike in it's class it's not as bad. Plus you are getting more horsepower for the extra money.
I've been a Harley guy since I was a kid. I got my first bike in June. I bought a 2000 Night Train with 3800 miles on it. I love it and ride any time I can. We aren't far apart I live in Killeen.
I’ve wanted a Harley since day one but never had one. 25 years ago wanted the 883R, got an SV650. Wanted a Buell Firebolt, bought a Speed Triple 1050. Wanted a Lowrider, bought an R1200S. Wanted a Street Glide, bought a Crosstourer. Wanted a Fatbob, bought a Hammer S and finally last year had the money for whatever I wanted; Goldwing, Fireblade, Fatbob, Roadglide, could have had any bike I wanted: Bought a BMW R1250GSA. Every time I get close price, bhp, ftlb, comfort, features or capability raises its head and screams “This is better”. Head over heart because every time I ride an HD I think “It’ll be nice when it’s finished”.
I am sorry, Spite, I could not resist it. Rephrasing the famous quote: "Never let anyone drive you crazy; it is nearby anyway and your own ride is good for you". Top notch video as usual, thank you!
A lot of people are addicted to speed and technology that doesn't improve their experience. They only ride to impress other people. I've met a lot of older guys who stopped caring about others people's opinions and they ride low CC bikes slowly down country roads and they are having a great time. I'll be honest, I'm not there yet but I can see the appeal.
The order of importance for characteristics on a motorcycle are as follows and Harley takes the cake on the top 5 1. Looks 2. Sound 3. Comfort 4. Reliability 5. Customizable 6. Performance
Good video, here and many good points. One issue surrounding Harley is the difficulty and expense of manufacturing and selling in the US these days. BMW, KTM and Triumph don't make many bikes in Europe anymore, yet they charge EU prices. Harley is doing something hard - designing and manufacturing motorcycles in the US. Indian also. Let's give them credit for that and cut them some slack. I share your view that you've never had a bad experience on a Harley and I'm grateful for that.
Interesting, I started riding in 1992 on a Goldwing. I took a break and recently started looking. I was between a 06 Sportster and a 04 Shadow. The Sportster won, and now that there is snow on the ground, I miss riding it.
I started out building a basket case ‘59 Sportster and have never looked back. After my shovel Electraglide, I just bought a M8 softail. To me they consistently inject new technology, but keep the thumping heritage alive at the same time. The Sportster engined Buell was the answer for the younger generations IMO. It is the shareholder “growth”demand that is killing them. They were doing just fine. The new ST Panamerica is stupid IMO, especially compared to the very successful ST softail. Electric bike in general is a lose lose proposition for a long time. Anyway, love your dialogue and passion for all things motorcycle … and electric guitar.
I just bought a 2016 Harley Davidson Street 500 a couple of weeks ago. Just a lot of fun to drive great I know it's slow, a little heavy and unwieldy and doesn't really do anything particularly well, but it's a lot of fun to ride and it sounds really cool. It's got a Harley feel to it so I'm happy.
You mentioned the new nightster and how awesome it is, but that it is comically expensive. Just wanted to point out that harley has dropped the price of both models by $1500. The base model is $10,499. Still quite expensive but a move in the right direction. loved this video and seeing you ride with friends!
$10,499 for the Nightster is actually competitive when you consider what you get. You're getting a bike that wrecks the Scout, for a few dollars more, with fully featured tech brembos and quality components. That's what I would consider reasonable for that bike. If Indian can get away with selling a cruiser for 10K Harley can too. BUUUUT They still need a cheaper entry level option along side that bike
DaThaiFlavor 😎 2025 NightSter $ MSRP Dropped from 13.5K (2024) to 12.5K (2025) In fact, All 3 'Sportster' Model Dropped $1K AS ALL? Baggers & Cruisers WENT Up 🙏
@@spitescorner Exactly! Make the base model $9,499 and drop the Special (like the one you ride last year) to $11,499.Then you have an entry level price that flat out beats the scout and the option for an entry level bike with every but of tech harley has to offer, for just a little bit more than the scout.
@@spitescornerthe Nightster wrecks the Scout, but I just can’t get over how much better the Scout looks as well. I feel like the aesthetics of the Nightster feel like an afterthought the Scout looks sexy.
I really enjoy Harley. My only issue with them now is they ended app support for the HD LiveWire I have. They said in an email they’re exploring other options for it. Also the touchscreen is delaminating and the dealer said it’s not covered under warranty since it’s only a powertrain warranty.
Good video. I became a Harley customer/rider at the tail end of the 90s high of the motor company. Anybody that thinks Harley has ever been 'Working Man' affordable has not been a Harley-Davidson customer for that long. Harley-Davidson, at least in the past 40 or so years has been a motorcycle we Gen X and late Boomer generation riders aspired to. We saved and saved and rode cheaper Japanese brands until we could afford a Harley. My first Harley-Davidson was a 2001 Sportster I ordered while in the Army stationed in Germany through Military Sales at a price of $10,000 in December 2000!!! Definitely not cheap. I waited six months for that bike to be delivered to Harley-Davidson in Frankfurt, Germany. I still own that bike along with three other Sporties and a 2003 Fatboy: along with a 2004 Buell XB12R and two Indians. Harley and Indian bikes are priced so close as to be negligible and comes down to brand loyalty and subjective taste---the BIG disadvantage Harley has is dealership markups at which point the Indian alternative comes in thousands of dollars cheaper. Tech-wise outside of not going fully water cooled like Indian, Harley has just about caught up. Good video!!
I have a ‘22 Nightster as my first HD and love it to death, started on a Ninja but was definitely over priced at the time (dumb decision at almost $18k out the door). Wish sometimes that I waited for the Special so I can get cruise control and lower price but that’s in the past. I’ve got my eyes on a Low Rider ST with the 117 but new at $25k is hard to swallow as a 30 year old. Used ones are available in my area so I might go that route
in regards to Harley's market share: they had a LOT of help from the US government. there were a lot of bailouts and special tariffs all designed specifically to keep HD from going out of business in the 70s and 80s. sure what they made truly was something special, but the business was almost run into the ground out of hubris and laziness and an inability/refusal to adapt.
Have ridden some others - and gladly so - but Harley-Davidson is the only brand I've ever owned and all I WANT to own. I want a bike that looks like something from the Black Rebels Motorcycle Club, eats meat with every turn of the throttle, and that I, as a mechanical amateur, can actually get into and learn on. Support now and for always, and looking forward to seeing you, Spite, continue to carve up the road.
Harley does a very good job of staying true to their heritage styling wise but blending in new technology and safety systems. I have a 2020 Heritage 114 that looks like it was made in the 60’s but handles like a dream, has abs, cruise control, adjustable suspension, shit tons of torque and get up, etc. All the new Softails this year got 117’s and RDRS with not much of a price increase.
I can say I agree. I never owned anything Harley due to lack of power to value proposition. Personally I know you can have advanced tech inside the engine to make more power such as the 108. And maintain the look image and feel. I want to go fast and be comfortable and as of now Harley hasn’t been the one. But I bought a sportster s. It’s a cruiser that’s not the most comfortable but it’s very comfortable compared to how fast it actually is. Beating a 600 with feet forwards is a hell if a feeling !
5 วันที่ผ่านมา +2
I've wanted a PanAmerica since they came. But the new ST really is for me. If all possible, I'm buying one this year.
As an American motorcycle rider I would love to buy a Harley. But for some odd reason that I will never understand HD makes bikes that are not fun to ride. Their bikes sit too low, foot pegs in weird places, wheel bases are too long, forks raked out, uncomfortable hand positions, and too heavy to easily move around when in the garage. So if you are a normal motorcycle rider HD does not make a bike for you. Normal bikes have 30-32 in seat height, sub 450lbs, normal rake and trail. And not at a price that is only marketed to cosplaying lawyers and dentists.
sounds like you only think about yourself. your definition of normal isnt the same as every other people... i think cruisers are superior in every way over a sport bike, but this is just my opinion. you see what i mean?
Normal is subjective. I like Harleys and I like sportbikes and standard motorcycles too. Really anything on two wheels and I have no issue adapting to the different styles. Seems you found what you like and prefer. Just stick with that if you can't get past a different style of bike.
what's normal to you may not be normal to others. People are passionate about their Harleys, and it's not always for practical or rake-and-trail reasons
If you can test ride a Pan America ST I bet it can make you smile and take care of most of your 12 reasons you don't like HD. I had a 24 Pan American for 1 year and about 9000 trouble free miles. The specs on the new ST look like it would be a very good round town, playing on twisties type bike.
@ Yes "normal" is subjective. But every other motorcycle manufacturer makes bikes with the typical dimensions. My point is simply that HD as a motorcycle company should also make bikes in the same category as every other company. By only making bikes with low, heavy dimensions they are limiting the themselves to only the riders who want a low heavy bike. They should put their new engine in a wider range of chassis. And the PanAm is definitely a dentist/lawyer cosplay bike.
After buying a 2023 SV650, discovering I preferred it to my 2021 MT-09, I traded the MT-09 for a 2021 Sportster Forty-Eight. This gives me what I consider a pretty much perfect pair. Of course I went Stage One on the Forty-Eight not too long after I got it… 13” Legend Revo shocks not long after that. I love both bikes, but the Forty-Eight gets ridden almost twice as much as the SV650. That 1200cc air cooled 45 degree V-Twin makes me grin like an idiot every time I start her up!
Getting away from Cruisers...but I'll probably keep my Victory Cross Country forever because it's dependable. Get back to basics means leaving the Bosch electronics off the Harley and letting owners wrench away on their new Harleys. Freedom is curtailed if you can't keep the bike outta the dealer's service bay.
I have both an Indian and a Harley. They're both phenomenal machines and both companies make an excellent product. There's no real reason to have to choose a side.
Sounds to me like you torqued the cometic gaskets to Harley gasket specs listed in the manual instead of cometics. The MLS gaskets take a way lighter spec than factory style gaskets because they are multi layered steel plates basically. Which would be a better explanation of how all the studs pulled. And being critical of Harley is warranted due to how expensive they are. I've done multiple hammer 1275 kits, they're awesome kids for the money! I'm loving the new pan America st idea, I might buy one myself
I started riding late summer last year and came very close to getting a Sportster as my first bike. It's a dinosaur, but that is exactly what makes them cool! For various reasons I wound up with a Bonneville T120 in stead as I have a soft spot for the Bonnies as well.
I’m 64, and I purchased a new Moto Guzzi V100 Mandello S in December 2023 and 2 years later I’d still purchase it again because I don’t see anything else on the market that would change my mind. I added the panniers and top box and it’ll do exactly what I want it to do and I didn’t have to spend $30k+. Got a 7 year warranty and a maintenance plan so hopefully I’m good to go for a while.
I think the 2025 Softail lineup is great.... fixed several of the little issues. It would be nice if someone competed with them with similar bikes. Indian is trying at least, but with less aftermarket support and many less dealers, its hard to justify buying a bike from hundreds of miles away when I have 2 different Harley dealers close by. Price is the only issue, but I can tell the difference when I compare them to my Honda or Kawasaki. It feels like cheap junk vs expensive.
I think they were muted on the P.R. this year because they axed the Electra Glide which has been around since ‘65 and didn’t want it coming back on them the way the sportster did.
The nanny state is so annoying. In 1992 I bought a new Yamaha Seca 2 without any MC training or experience. I spend about an hour in the parking lot, then rode about 15 miles home. I've been riding fairly consistently but due to a few years of travel work and an interstate move, my license expired. Oregon wants me to take a $200 MSF class to get an endorsement. I've taken the class a couple decades ago and somehow still have the credentials but the beurocracy will not recognize them. I'd rather spend that $200 on fuel money than give a damn thing to the nanny state. But that MSF card stays handy.
Same. Sure, the MSF teaches new riders (*depending on who your instructors are, most are farms to endorse dirty riders) but it's still expensive as hell and there should be an option to just go to the DMV and test instead.
Without the MSF, I wouldn’t be writing this comment. I’d probably be getting fished out a ditch somewhere. I went in with 0 experience and it was safe space to make mistakes and learn quickly. The one guy in my class that had the most riding experience did the worst on the riding test. I crashed the bike into a ditch on the first day and passed my riding test with only one demerit on the second day. The MSF actually worked really well for me, so I advocate for it but I do understand that everyone has a different riding background.
People don’t compare price or specs when they see a vintage car (insert example). But they do with vintage tech Harleys. 😅. I have a ducati but I can appreciate what HD offers.
I really enjoy my Street Bob. I did do the “stage 1” on it. A lot of fun there. I still enjoy my Ducati SS950 as well. I’m a glutton for punishment….. what can I say. 😎
Ride a 22yo YamaHarley RoadStar... love it tho just a simulacrum of a Road King - that said, I would still love to have a Harley. My bike has like 90k and is in the garage waiting for spring.
Hey Spite, I appreciate your vids, especially this one! I have a 2019 48 with a Stage 3 Kit. And I love it! Today I rode the Nightster 975. At almost 66, I've been thinking about a lighter bike and thought maybe this might do the trick. I thought it felt like riding a sport bike!! I ran it through the modes and the sport mode certainly delivered. But after owning a couple of Iron 883s and similar seating position to the Nightster, I just couldn't see myself trading for it. 5 months ago, I rode the Street Rod 750. I thought the bike had lots of potential. Why H-D dropped it I'll never know! Anyway, thanks again.
I remember reading a certain british magazines review of a Buell and loving it but, that sportster engine...you know! Then Buell got the 1125, a real sports bike engine...but then the lament was...hey , we really miss that sportster engined Buell, its just not the same. It's all about what you need vs what you want.
Great debate. Value is an interesting subject for me because it is subjective. Value can be established from a spec sheet, or from personal needs and desires, cultural and social influences, emotional connection, perceived quality or scarcity and past experiences. Ultimately for me it comes down to how it makes me feel when I ride. I hated Harleys in my younger days but as my sports bike riding friends disappeared right before my eyes, Harley became more appealing. I've been riding Harleys now for over 6 years and I've never been happier. The new 2024 touring models are ace and bring Harley up to date with their competitors.
Damn. Thought you were going to convince me to like them. Turns out we are all RIGHT. No one under 45 years old has ever seen a Harley worth looking at
Complicated, that's how Matt describes my relationship with them as well lol. I'd fairly certain I have a longer wrap sheet with them if you want to compare. I disagree with the sportsters being comically expensive though, if you compare the 2025 sportster prices to the 2025 Scout prices, the Sportsters are cheaper buy about $1000. I do love that new Pan Am ST. I think I need that one
As far some of the bikes I like them. I wouldn't mind having an older soft tail, one with the "vibes" for cruising around and I like the PanAm, XR1200 and a few others. Wish they'd take more risks on producing capable affordable bikes in fact because I think people would like them. What we typically don't like is the cosplay culture and the overpriced baggers for said cosplayers... as well as how the Co does biz and never branches out. I think my assessment is fair lol
That's totally fair. I think if more folks thought like that instead of straight "harley bad" we could communicate our wants more clearly to the company. They do listen to riders, just not all riders.
@spitescorner "Harleys bad" is an umbrella reaction to cosplay, t shirt company over trying to innovate and a lot of the core rider base. I wish they'd have kept Buell and kept innovating those--- Buell's are good bikes the EBR 1190 is sick AF and with limited resources behind it. There's just so much HD could have done other than what they're stereotyped for lol Triumph makes a bit of everything and HD should have evolved into that.
I saw a SV (not sure which one) when you guys pulled over. You pointed out the Aprilia and referred to the Pan America later on. Believe it or not, my Honda Hawk GT has a similar "burble" exhaust note when going down the highway to your Sportster.
@@spitescorner Whoah!! I don't know that much about the SV 1000's. I went to a Hawk GT rally about 20 years back, and several of the Hawk GT club members had TL 1000s at that rally. Only exposure I had to them. I used to own a 01 SV 650 which I loved. Still wondering why I sold it!
I rode the CVO ST, and yea it is super expensive, but, if I had the money, I would... I totally would. That engine is such a gem. But yea, I'd take a Pursuit over any of the non CVO ST road glides especially now that they have the 112. I can not wait to compare a 112 Challenger to a CVO ST
@@spitescorner I got a chance to test rode a CVO ST, Pan America CVO, and the new Road Glide with the tour pack during moto GP at COTA couple of months ago. I have the footage but I've just gotten a cold feet from utube stuff. I dont know if I wanna edit those etc. Seriously dude, I hope you get to ride one. It is so good. It revs so fast and so alive, it really is like a shot of adrenaline. But yea... it is twice the price of my truck's current market value. And holy crap... nobody told me Pan America is a frkin beast. Most underrated HD
Harley is doing the classic publicly listed company thing where they prioritize profits for the next 5 years and just sell the shares when they’re at peak value. Then something happens, sales tank, the government bails them out, the cycle continues anew.
I know spite is talking about my Kawasaki Vulcan 650s as one of the kawasakis he didn’t enjoy . It’s a great bike for the price and my size . I got way more compliments on my Kawasaki than my KTM .
Always swore I'd never buy one. I bought a Fat Bob. At this point I think I've put as much into it as I paid for it in the first place. It's heavy. It's not exactly nimble. I wouldn't use the term 'smooth' to describe anything about it. I think that's why I love it.
To me the point will always be that they are too expensive. I get it btw. The brand, the legacy, the style, that cool factor. I see pictures of those bikes and I wish could own one, and I dont even know why, but that's how beautiful they are, they make you want one. But that's way too intangible when all I want is a bike. And money wise, you get more bike with other brands. So, most likely I am in the wrong crowd.
The Pan America is an absolute beast. My son owns one, and I may have to grab one when the manufacturing comes back to the states. I own a 2019 street glide along with a couple of Ducati’s. The new baggers just don’t appeal to me though.
Im in New Braunfels and was curious if theres another route planner that isnt so expensive. $47 is a little steep. My go to is out Canyon Lake way back down Devils Backbone to San Marcos but it just isnt long enough a ride.
I think the new 1250 ST looks good for a road bike version of the Pan Am. I noticed they have deleted the resonator box. I hate it on my Pan Am, it cooks my ankle. I have two HD's, first 1988 Lowrider 80ci Evo, hotted up and with a sidecar, had it since 1989. Second my 2022 Pan America Enthusiasts Collection version, it hasn't been perfect, the alternator failed and they fitted the 2024 upgrade alternator kit. I was in the HD workshop today getting it 3rd service, looking at the new bikes, the CVO touring bike looks cool, but it didn't grab me by the balls and make me want it. The Evo motors are just magic, especially the old ones with a carb. My old Lowrider is a beast, hot cam, massive flat slide carb, shotgun pipes (that are not too loud, I know you don't like them). Especially with the sidecar and very firm suspension, drifting it around corners in the mountains, without anyone in the chair is magic. The Pan Am is fantastic, in a completely different way, so many tuning options for the motor and suspension. I have a V&H muffler on it, and it is beautiful. I do think the modern normal HD bikes are great but they are trading on the name, and too damn expensive.
2025 Pan America ST setup with the 17" wheels is a step in the right direction. Be cool to see what Spite thinks of it given his previous affection towards the Ducati MTS 1260 Pikes Peak.
I am not a fan of the hd pricing which is the only thing stopping me from getting one as i really like the low rider st, but considering i can get a bike from another company a lot cheaper
I have ridden Harleys, competed against them in trials and wouldn't have one as a gift. I'd sell it and get a decent bike that will take me where I want to go.
I have been riding my 1997 Sportster for the past 16 years. I’ve ridden it all over eastern Australia in that time and it’s ALWAYS gotten me where I wanted to go. For your reference, Australia is the same size as the 48 states of the USA, give or take a few square miles, so this is a large area I’m talking about. Never had any problems with the bike. I can (and have) strip it down to the last nut and bolt. ONCE, when it turned 25 years old. I replaced wheel bearings, steering head bearings and stuff like brakes (callipers, master cylinders and lines) as well as upgrading to 1275cc’s with barrels and pistons. I put 1” longer shocks on it when I first got it. It came with a 2-1 exhaust system and it goes round corners quickly enough to raise eyebrows of sports bike riders. It produces torque in the 90ft/lb range which drives its 480lb frame along just fine. It doesn’t leak oil, it gets better than 60mpg even when ridden hard. It can lift the front wheel (if I’m not careful) and it will cruise all day at highway speeds. That’s all I need it to do. I’m not even remotely interested in two hundred mph bikes. They’re for the race track and I want to ride on public roads. If I ever got rid of the Sportster (unlikely) I’d get a Royal Enfield Super Meteor. Because I like them too. Riding is about enjoying what you ride. I don’t care what brand or type of bike it is. The constant BS about unreliability hasn’t changed since I kept hearing it about the Triumphs I started out on, three of which were my only form of transport over the decade and a half I owned them. I knew how to look after them is all. I LIKED the way they vibrated. Made them feel alive. (And me too) Not your cup of tea? Fine! That’s your choice and you have every right to it, but please just stop with the nonsense about which bike is ‘better’. That’s a subjective opinion that obviously differs between riders. Allow others the right to hold their own opinions and likes and just enjoy the ride. Anything else is just narrow-minded.
All Harley needs to do to become interesting is make some modern bikes. Get that RevMax engine and make a naked bike in the vein of the Indian FTR. Make an entry level big trail bike. Bam done.
I bought a 2024 Street bob. Initially, it had a few warranty problems, but now it's fixed. I'm so glad I got it when I did. Because this year's release, I am not impressed with. I don't like any of the color choices. (I got the orange one.) And while some of the rider aids are nice, you don't really need them...... And of course they're prices, are once again too high. Not to mentionThey don't make harley's for tall people anymore. Which sucks because i'm six foot six.
I love Harley, loved them since i first saw one in "Renegade" during the 90s and my dream bike is an evo softail. But I can't condone a company for having the cheek of selling 60k bikes and to ask 15k for their STARTER model. It's a slap in the face of everyone who's not rich, when harley always played on the blue collar image
I personally love the looks/power of the low rider S and the low rider ST. But I’m late-thirties and have a house so I’m starting to fall out of love with my ninja 600 and sportster. I’m starting to become that old Harley guy. Save me
I think that stat of 50% of all motorcycles sold are HD, when it was true was in North America. I don't believe they've ever held that much share globally. Big Red I believe always out sold them even in HDs hayday in the 90's and early 2000's globally.
Start exploring new roads with Calimoto today and use code SPITE10 for 10% off a yearly subscription: calimoto.app.link/Spites_Corner
So, what kind of updates are you looking to get from Harley? Appearance, tech, mechanical? I mean i know the price is a real problem. But, in your opinion, is there anything they can do in bike design to mitigate that concern for you?
Harley is great at what they do. They make the classic american muscle car of motorcycles and i love how each one comes with its own soul.
By far, I'd say HD's biggest problem is they continue to "price people out" of their line up. However the " Basic" 2025 Nightster starts at $10,499 which is less than the $12,249 MSRP of my 2022 Iron 883 Sportster. The biggest issue I have with them, there is always a lot of things that need to be changed on any factory bike you get from them. the best example on my 883 the seat is nice for about 10 minutes in then it feels like a steel rail. They finally upped all the line up to all LED lighting, which is good. Overall what they seem to be doing is the same thing all the automobile manufacturers are doing, they only want to make and stock stuff that has all the gingerbread options and gee wiz stuff for an added premium. The Road King looks like it's on its way out, only bike in the line up with the 114 engine, maybe just to get rid of 114 stock. They did that with the Standard Softail with the 107 in 2024 which is no longer in the line up. To tell the truth, it looks like all HD really wants to do is push everyone into a Road Glide being it seems to be the only bike they like talking about. They also seem to be all over the place with the options and build outs of the bikes, never quite hitting the mark. For me it's a love hate relationship, I hate all the stuff I have to put money into to make the bike into the HD I've always known and loved.
First of all love the comment and agree with all, my opinion is similar and what I would like for people to stop buying HD at all and force them to lower the prices. That is the only way something will change. Here in EU prices of HD are even crazier , you can buy good car for one HD.
@@Joke89ful hd vs car; it;s always been that way at least for the last 100 years. if demand for bikes were like that of a cars, it would be a different story
The new Road Glide is SOOOO GOOOOD though! So good I bought one. Best bike I've had in my life. I've been riding for 25 years, and I've owned a ton of bikes. Even used to race superbikes (not pro but only at the club level)... But the new Road Glide is just so great all around us hard to ignore! Comfortable, powerful, rides great, awesome tech, immense aftermarket, top tier fit and finish... Everything. And it'll run for 150k miles or more unless you start dicking with it.
@@Joke89ful Manufacturing in the US and EU is expensive. BMW, KTM and Triumph don't do it anymore yet charge EU prices.
@ completely agreed in my view this is the problem I have with companies. If they want to charge that amount they should produce it in EU or USA
I've always had a soft spot for the Fatbob, but when it comes to spending actual money I always end up elsewhere.
I honestly used to be one of those Harley haters… then I test ride a 48 sporty. Coming from a Ninja 1000 to that was crazy. Ninja was fast, comfy and all round… soulless. The 48? I took it for an hour. It shook at traffic lights, rumbled and burbled on and off throttle. Came back with a stupid big grin. It wasn’t just a bike. It was a Harley. I finally understood it. Yeah, 50ish hp vs 100, but I don’t ride spec sheets. I got hooked. Since then I’ve had 2 deluxes, a 72, fatbob, heritage, roadglide, fxdrs and now a street glide st 117.
I love them. And honestly, once you ride baggers, everything else can’t compete. I can load up my bags, lock em. GPS and radio, cruise, hill hold, etc… clip on/off tourpak when wife wants to come along. It’s stable, responsive, comfortable and plenty fast. I can get on in all weather and ride comfortably. I can (and do) ride up and down the length of Queensland at a moments notice. Can’t really do that on most bikes without oodles of 3rd party, teeny luggage.
Normally my bike is a '23 TransAlp and it does everything I need easily: Long trips, highway commute, filtering through traffic, and it's both nimble, comfortable and fuel efficient to boot.
However, despite being exhausting to lug through traffic, comfortable only until you hit a bad patch of road/highway (of which there are a lot in my region), at constant risk of something going wrong due to age on long trips, and burning gas because it's not running an optimal tune (in a country where good Harley tuners are either dead or on the opposite end of the landmass), my dad's '99 Road King is still my comfort bike that I like taking out just for shits, giggles, and a good time.
Sounds like you just changed riding styles, which is totally fine. I told my friends if I ever buy a bagger, take me out back and put me out my misery because I’ve obviously lost my mind. Just not for me.
@ have you ridden one? I’ve done sport bikes, tourers, motards, scooters, nakeds… all ok machines. But don’t match the comfort and versatility of a bagger. I sold my road glide and got the fatbob and heritage to see if having a smaller bike was easier. Nope. Got the street glide instead. It’s the best all rounder machine (apart from gnarly dirt or track work). I’ve done gravel roads on em. Love em. Comfort and it’s damn easy to ride.
@@chorseundgrd I’ve met guys with that same thought. They get bored of bikes and rather than “be seen dead” on a cruiser, they stop riding. And either never get back into it, or try to capture their youth on another litre bike in their 70s.
@@jamesbthejoke5614 I can’t ride a liter bike forever. I’m not delusional. My knees remind me. But I’d rather buy a Multistrada than a bagger. The size and weight don’t apply to me and I don’t like the way they look. They’re great bikes, but there’s a dozen and one bikes I’d rather ride than a bagger. It’s just not my riding style.
Oof 22 points on the calimeter is rough
That's basically my highway commutes.
Don't rub it in
Always seemed like such an easy thing to make a Scrambler version of the Sporty in its last few years; my go to was "Why don't they build their version of an FTR?" only to see Indian is stopping production on them. Tough industry.
70 years old, I've got 27 motorcycles in my life. I started when I was 18 with a used 120cc Suzuki. After that a brand new 550 Suzuki after that it was a series of used bikes one of which was a 1982 Harley flh. Compared to the Z1 which I also had in my garage at the time it was ridiculously outdated but I could not believe I was always choosing the Harley even though it vibrated all to hell and broke down frequently. Multiple new and used Japanese and European sport bikes followed but I missed the feel of a Harley-Davidson. I came party back in 2006 with a Buell XB 12X. Much better reliability by then and the handling was very confidence inspiring even though I had just sold my R1. I then bought a new 2009 XR 1200 Sportster and ended up putting 27000 miles on it, not fast at all but just so satisfying to ride! I then traded for a new Tuono Factory in 2017 and that was easily the best overall bike I have ever owned. That thing just always had me laughing in my helmet at how good it was but I knew somehow I would have another Harley-Davidson and sure enough in 2022 I bought a new Road King. Yes I miss the instantaneous passing power, telepathic handling and other worldly braking power but I have no regrets. I know exactly what you are talking about.
I feel like Harley updates their bikes more often than other brands. Not just colors, but engines, options, entire models. There's a quote that says "Americans buy horsepower and drive torque". Harley riders buy torque and ride torque. They know that torque makes it easier to ride around town, easier to pull out of curves on a backroad, and easier to have a passenger and luggage on a long ride. I genuinely believe cruisers fit the riding most people do, whether they want to admit to themselves or not. The price is the problem.
Come on Harleys have been slow for the last 80 years with the exception of just the last few years.. yet they still can't handle curves. 18 Wheelers have torque from 855 Cubic Inch Engines with high compression and Turbo Chargers..
Tell me you know nothing about the motorcycle industry without telling me you know nothing, “Harley updates their bikes more often than other brands” you having a laugh?
They do make changes year over year. Some years it's more aesthetic than anything, but they're main go to is bumping displacement instead of altering the steering geometry which would drastically improve the bike's performance.
@@kfkwAL7 How comes a 1958 Harley looks so similar to a 1998 Harley .
@@spitescorner I don't consider color and paint schemes an update.. Nor adding to the bore and stroke of the same engine.
Indian has forced them to use better suspension components and even better brakes. Now that's an upgrade. Look at the Evolution of the Yamaha R-1 or the FZ-07 in USA where ABS was an option and the MT-07 in Europe where ABS was mandatory. Finally Inverted front forks. Now an auto shifting transmission which I don't want. A little stiffer frame better headlight .. all LED lights.
Calimoto is awesome. I’ve got nearly 100,000 miles in-app - most of it at 100 twisty rating, but I’m in Switzerland, not Texas. 🤣
Me: All I want is a one headlight standard looking motorcycle
Harley: Got it, make the light a rectangle, and body of a silver wing!!!!
Me : 🤦♂️
Most of the Softails have round lights, but a stripped back pan am with a round headlight would be killer.
@ correct sir, it seems like investors have an argument for new management based solely on not bringing them back
And charge you $3k for that headlight
Great video Spite. Trashing is easy but a healthy debate is always the best choice. I love Harleys but have always been critical of them. I like a lot of other brands, I like the innovation, the tech, the cool stuff they provide, but somehow I am still drawn to Harley. Can't say I'm terribly surprised that I ended up on a Pan America after owning a few air cooled Harleys in a row.
I totally get what your saying .I’d love to see Harley make a naked bike out of the new nightster or something like that so they could reach more riders. I have a 07 nightster 1200 that’s been sitting for about a year and you getting your sporty lit the fire for me to do a club build on it that will be done soon so thanks 🤘🏼
You know it's long past sell point for a 500 pound naked bike with that motor lol.... competition has already blown that out of the water. They needed that around 2018 and then needed to refine it into the year we're in now.
The PanAM is a legitimately good bike for the sector it's in tho. I haven't ridden it, but have seen them in the wild and they are very nice.
Many complain about the Harley's price - so lets get real. As of 2025, we are living in an age where a Royal Enfield bike is inching close to USD $10K, a BMW GS is at $32~36k (out of the dealer with taxes + fees), and a Honda Civic is $34k or more (yes, an EX-L model here in Glendale CA with taxes and fees!!)...and a gallon of gas here in California is...don't even get me started. Price has gone up for everything - and I think, given what it offers, Harley is priced pretty competitively. Motorcycling is not a cheap hobby, if you want a low price budget option for commuting, there are plenty of good options for your in used market (which I am a fan of) - but if you want something that makes you happy whether it's Harley, Ducati, or any other overpriced over-hyped "Prada" of a brand bike that offers its own charm and feelings - what ever makes you happy is your bike, then it's worth every single cent you paid for.
Life is just too short - so get out there and ride what you love.
No matter what everyone says, Harley Davidson still makes more profit than KTM and BMW Motorrad combined - yes they are having a tough time, but so as every other manufacturer as well.
I thought the new Pan America ST was a breath of fresh air! Next I hope to see news about them resurrecting the XR1200 with the new RevMax engines.
I'm with you on the XR!!!
Not a big fan of Harley's, or big cruisers in general, but the Pan America has tempted me, especially with lightly used near new examples going for half their original purchase price over here.
What would get me over the line though is a new XR using the Rev Max 975, and I'm sure I'm not alone there. An Evel tribute version would be perfect for next year, although they shouldn't wait longer. 2027 would be a "problematic" anniversary.
It’s actually one of the HD products that shows quality. Unfortunately they don’t sell well. Good news with that you can get one reasonable priced on used market.
My neighbour had one, engine crank ovaled out destroying itself. Couldn’t get a new engine so they gave him a brand new one, then has been plagued with electrical faults for a year…
With a background in 2 stroke dirt bikes and mostly Japanese inline 4s and Moto Guzzi's, I was not looking for a Harley but bought a 2009 Softail Custom because it was a 'good deal'. After riding it for the first time about a week ago, I'm hooked! It is super comfortable, has torque right off idle, and makes That Sound! As high priced as the new HDs are, the used ones are super cheap right now and a great way for someone to get to know the brand and see if it's for them.
Harleys aren't bad bikes. They are just more expensive than bikes that are better. That's why a lot of people like myself just can't bring themselves to buy one.
Why can’t they make bikes American males under 40 like?
Their business plan is to sell fewer, more expensive bikes. Older people have more expendable income🤷♂️
I'm over 60 and have no use for anything so limited.
@ seems short sighted, like their customers I guess
What do males under 40 like?
@ bikes made for picking up chicks not impressing old men
Adam Sandoval dropped a video a bit ago where he tried to defend the "value proposition" of Harley motorcycles by saying that they HOLD their value well. It was frustrating because he basically totally ignored what MOST people use as the definition of value proposition in this context. Which is Harleys, by and large, are too expensive for the performance you get.
Yes Harleys hold their value better, and guess what that means to someone wanting to experience the brand? Even the used ones are more expensive. Meaning older Harleys with even less performance that the new Harleys cost more than brand new bikes from other brands with much better performance.
It was a frustrating video because I respect Adam and his content. It's NOT controversial to say that Harley is a pretty bad value proposition when compared to other brands.
Opinion
Bronx when?
Give up it’s not happening.
You just got it, Pan America ST. That's as close as we will every get, unfortunately.
I guess I’m in the minority. I think the PA ST looks great. That’s the Bronx for now.
Never
I didn't buy a Street Glide because I wanted a Harley, I bought a Harley because I wanted a Street Glide. There's just something about riding a Harley that feels different. Whether it's character of the bikes, the potato-potato sound, or something else... I'm not quite sure. But I've ridden other bikes, and still own a Kawasaki Vulcan 800... and I almost always hop on the Harley.
They're not perfect, but they're the perfect bike for my style of riding, and with all the latest tech updates, the prices are almost justified [I mean, who WOULDN'T want motorcycles to be cheaper?].
I think it was Jerry Palladino who recently compared old and new Harley MSRPs, and adjusting for inflation, the new ones were the same or cheaper - with all the upgrades made over the past decade or so!
Great video, Spite :D
Look, I am not an HD fan. You can 100% blame it on the cultist culture. The product is fine, for touring and being loud. I'm a conservative Texan and I still feel this way. I don't see any way out of the hole they've dug for themselves. It's crazy, but true. My friend's dad always preferred Triumphs to HD, and he started riding in the 60s. I love my Sv650 and Africa Twin. I would proudly own an Indian too. Interpret that how you will.
Want a HD but cant afford one. Maybe their business plan is just to be a premium brand like Ducati, BMW, MV Augusta.HD is like Gibson is in the guitar industry. So afraid to go innovative and cut the prices and damage the brand name. The hardcore fans dont want changes and therefore nothing gonna happened. They rather sell less bikes for more money. Its always about big money.
I'm at a point where I'm having back issues. I don't need to deal with a heavy bike. Also the feet forward position is hard on my back. I do like the new PanAm ST though. I don't ride off road and this new rim size is more suited for on road. I do like the taller windshield though on the standard model. The price is a little high, but when you compare it to a bike in it's class it's not as bad. Plus you are getting more horsepower for the extra money.
I've been a Harley guy since I was a kid. I got my first bike in June. I bought a 2000 Night Train with 3800 miles on it. I love it and ride any time I can. We aren't far apart I live in Killeen.
I’ve wanted a Harley since day one but never had one. 25 years ago wanted the 883R, got an SV650. Wanted a Buell Firebolt, bought a Speed Triple 1050. Wanted a Lowrider, bought an R1200S. Wanted a Street Glide, bought a Crosstourer. Wanted a Fatbob, bought a Hammer S and finally last year had the money for whatever I wanted; Goldwing, Fireblade, Fatbob, Roadglide, could have had any bike I wanted: Bought a BMW R1250GSA. Every time I get close price, bhp, ftlb, comfort, features or capability raises its head and screams “This is better”. Head over heart because every time I ride an HD I think “It’ll be nice when it’s finished”.
I am sorry, Spite, I could not resist it. Rephrasing the famous quote: "Never let anyone drive you crazy; it is nearby anyway and your own ride is good for you".
Top notch video as usual, thank you!
A lot of people are addicted to speed and technology that doesn't improve their experience. They only ride to impress other people. I've met a lot of older guys who stopped caring about others people's opinions and they ride low CC bikes slowly down country roads and they are having a great time. I'll be honest, I'm not there yet but I can see the appeal.
I think it's more fair to say different people like different things
Aesthetically, this year’s lineup looks amazing. Not an ugly bike in the bunch.
The order of importance for characteristics on a motorcycle are as follows and Harley takes the cake on the top 5
1. Looks
2. Sound
3. Comfort
4. Reliability
5. Customizable
6. Performance
Good video, here and many good points. One issue surrounding Harley is the difficulty and expense of manufacturing and selling in the US these days. BMW, KTM and Triumph don't make many bikes in Europe anymore, yet they charge EU prices. Harley is doing something hard - designing and manufacturing motorcycles in the US. Indian also. Let's give them credit for that and cut them some slack. I share your view that you've never had a bad experience on a Harley and I'm grateful for that.
Interesting, I started riding in 1992 on a Goldwing. I took a break and recently started looking. I was between a 06 Sportster and a 04 Shadow. The Sportster won, and now that there is snow on the ground, I miss riding it.
I hope they do something in response to the Pursuit 112.
Dealer network and aftermarket support for Harleys is top tier.
I started out building a basket case ‘59 Sportster and have never looked back. After my shovel Electraglide, I just bought a M8 softail. To me they consistently inject new technology, but keep the thumping heritage alive at the same time. The Sportster engined Buell was the answer for the younger generations IMO. It is the shareholder “growth”demand that is killing them. They were doing just fine. The new ST Panamerica is stupid IMO, especially compared to the very successful ST softail. Electric bike in general is a lose lose proposition for a long time. Anyway, love your dialogue and passion for all things motorcycle … and electric guitar.
This video is not for us but for HD corporate. He wants HD to send him bikes for review.
I don't have to make a video to do that. I can just ask them.
Of course who wouldn’t?
I just bought a 2016 Harley Davidson Street 500 a couple of weeks ago. Just a lot of fun to drive great I know it's slow, a little heavy and unwieldy and doesn't really do anything particularly well, but it's a lot of fun to ride and it sounds really cool. It's got a Harley feel to it so I'm happy.
You mentioned the new nightster and how awesome it is, but that it is comically expensive. Just wanted to point out that harley has dropped the price of both models by $1500. The base model is $10,499. Still quite expensive but a move in the right direction. loved this video and seeing you ride with friends!
$10,499 for the Nightster is actually competitive when you consider what you get. You're getting a bike that wrecks the Scout, for a few dollars more, with fully featured tech brembos and quality components. That's what I would consider reasonable for that bike. If Indian can get away with selling a cruiser for 10K Harley can too. BUUUUT They still need a cheaper entry level option along side that bike
DaThaiFlavor 😎
2025 NightSter $
MSRP
Dropped from 13.5K (2024) to 12.5K (2025)
In fact, All 3 'Sportster' Model Dropped $1K
AS
ALL?
Baggers & Cruisers
WENT Up
🙏
@ The list price of the Nightster has dropped to $10,499. Wherever you got your pricing info didn't look online.
@@spitescorner Exactly! Make the base model $9,499 and drop the Special (like the one you ride last year) to $11,499.Then you have an entry level price that flat out beats the scout and the option for an entry level bike with every but of tech harley has to offer, for just a little bit more than the scout.
@@spitescornerthe Nightster wrecks the Scout, but I just can’t get over how much better the Scout looks as well. I feel like the aesthetics of the Nightster feel like an afterthought the Scout looks sexy.
I really enjoy Harley. My only issue with them now is they ended app support for the HD LiveWire I have. They said in an email they’re exploring other options for it. Also the touchscreen is delaminating and the dealer said it’s not covered under warranty since it’s only a powertrain warranty.
Good video. I became a Harley customer/rider at the tail end of the 90s high of the motor company. Anybody that thinks Harley has ever been 'Working Man' affordable has not been a Harley-Davidson customer for that long. Harley-Davidson, at least in the past 40 or so years has been a motorcycle we Gen X and late Boomer generation riders aspired to. We saved and saved and rode cheaper Japanese brands until we could afford a Harley. My first Harley-Davidson was a 2001 Sportster I ordered while in the Army stationed in Germany through Military Sales at a price of $10,000 in December 2000!!! Definitely not cheap. I waited six months for that bike to be delivered to Harley-Davidson in Frankfurt, Germany. I still own that bike along with three other Sporties and a 2003 Fatboy: along with a 2004 Buell XB12R and two Indians. Harley and Indian bikes are priced so close as to be negligible and comes down to brand loyalty and subjective taste---the BIG disadvantage Harley has is dealership markups at which point the Indian alternative comes in thousands of dollars cheaper. Tech-wise outside of not going fully water cooled like Indian, Harley has just about caught up. Good video!!
I have a ‘22 Nightster as my first HD and love it to death, started on a Ninja but was definitely over priced at the time (dumb decision at almost $18k out the door). Wish sometimes that I waited for the Special so I can get cruise control and lower price but that’s in the past. I’ve got my eyes on a Low Rider ST with the 117 but new at $25k is hard to swallow as a 30 year old. Used ones are available in my area so I might go that route
👍🏻
in regards to Harley's market share: they had a LOT of help from the US government. there were a lot of bailouts and special tariffs all designed specifically to keep HD from going out of business in the 70s and 80s. sure what they made truly was something special, but the business was almost run into the ground out of hubris and laziness and an inability/refusal to adapt.
Have ridden some others - and gladly so - but Harley-Davidson is the only brand I've ever owned and all I WANT to own. I want a bike that looks like something from the Black Rebels Motorcycle Club, eats meat with every turn of the throttle, and that I, as a mechanical amateur, can actually get into and learn on. Support now and for always, and looking forward to seeing you, Spite, continue to carve up the road.
Harley does a very good job of staying true to their heritage styling wise but blending in new technology and safety systems. I have a 2020 Heritage 114 that looks like it was made in the 60’s but handles like a dream, has abs, cruise control, adjustable suspension, shit tons of torque and get up, etc. All the new Softails this year got 117’s and RDRS with not much of a price increase.
I can say I agree. I never owned anything Harley due to lack of power to value proposition.
Personally I know you can have advanced tech inside the engine to make more power such as the 108. And maintain the look image and feel.
I want to go fast and be comfortable and as of now Harley hasn’t been the one.
But I bought a sportster s. It’s a cruiser that’s not the most comfortable but it’s very comfortable compared to how fast it actually is. Beating a 600 with feet forwards is a hell if a feeling !
I've wanted a PanAmerica since they came. But the new ST really is for me. If all possible, I'm buying one this year.
I want to pick on up.
As an American motorcycle rider I would love to buy a Harley. But for some odd reason that I will never understand HD makes bikes that are not fun to ride. Their bikes sit too low, foot pegs in weird places, wheel bases are too long, forks raked out, uncomfortable hand positions, and too heavy to easily move around when in the garage. So if you are a normal motorcycle rider HD does not make a bike for you. Normal bikes have 30-32 in seat height, sub 450lbs, normal rake and trail. And not at a price that is only marketed to cosplaying lawyers and dentists.
sounds like you only think about yourself. your definition of normal isnt the same as every other people... i think cruisers are superior in every way over a sport bike, but this is just my opinion. you see what i mean?
Normal is subjective. I like Harleys and I like sportbikes and standard motorcycles too. Really anything on two wheels and I have no issue adapting to the different styles. Seems you found what you like and prefer. Just stick with that if you can't get past a different style of bike.
what's normal to you may not be normal to others. People are passionate about their Harleys, and it's not always for practical or rake-and-trail reasons
If you can test ride a Pan America ST I bet it can make you smile and take care of most of your 12 reasons you don't like HD. I had a 24 Pan American for 1 year and about 9000 trouble free miles. The specs on the new ST look like it would be a very good round town, playing on twisties type bike.
@ Yes "normal" is subjective. But every other motorcycle manufacturer makes bikes with the typical dimensions. My point is simply that HD as a motorcycle company should also make bikes in the same category as every other company. By only making bikes with low, heavy dimensions they are limiting the themselves to only the riders who want a low heavy bike. They should put their new engine in a wider range of chassis. And the PanAm is definitely a dentist/lawyer cosplay bike.
I think they targeted their reveal at social media folks they knew would shill for them.
After buying a 2023 SV650, discovering I preferred it to my 2021 MT-09, I traded the MT-09 for a 2021 Sportster Forty-Eight. This gives me what I consider a pretty much perfect pair.
Of course I went Stage One on the Forty-Eight not too long after I got it… 13” Legend Revo shocks not long after that.
I love both bikes, but the Forty-Eight gets ridden almost twice as much as the SV650. That 1200cc air cooled 45 degree V-Twin makes me grin like an idiot every time I start her up!
Getting away from Cruisers...but I'll probably keep my Victory Cross Country forever because it's dependable. Get back to basics means leaving the Bosch electronics off the Harley and letting owners wrench away on their new Harleys. Freedom is curtailed if you can't keep the bike outta the dealer's service bay.
Cross country is the best bike ever made. Indian rides in bit more agile way, but the looks of XC...A
I have both an Indian and a Harley. They're both phenomenal machines and both companies make an excellent product. There's no real reason to have to choose a side.
Sounds to me like you torqued the cometic gaskets to Harley gasket specs listed in the manual instead of cometics. The MLS gaskets take a way lighter spec than factory style gaskets because they are multi layered steel plates basically. Which would be a better explanation of how all the studs pulled. And being critical of Harley is warranted due to how expensive they are. I've done multiple hammer 1275 kits, they're awesome kids for the money! I'm loving the new pan America st idea, I might buy one myself
I started riding late summer last year and came very close to getting a Sportster as my first bike. It's a dinosaur, but that is exactly what makes them cool! For various reasons I wound up with a Bonneville T120 in stead as I have a soft spot for the Bonnies as well.
I’m 64, and I purchased a new Moto Guzzi V100 Mandello S in December 2023 and 2 years later I’d still purchase it again because I don’t see anything else on the market that would change my mind. I added the panniers and top box and it’ll do exactly what I want it to do and I didn’t have to spend $30k+.
Got a 7 year warranty and a maintenance plan so hopefully I’m good to go for a while.
I think the 2025 Softail lineup is great.... fixed several of the little issues. It would be nice if someone competed with them with similar bikes. Indian is trying at least, but with less aftermarket support and many less dealers, its hard to justify buying a bike from hundreds of miles away when I have 2 different Harley dealers close by. Price is the only issue, but I can tell the difference when I compare them to my Honda or Kawasaki. It feels like cheap junk vs expensive.
I think they were muted on the P.R. this year because they axed the Electra Glide which has been around since ‘65 and didn’t want it coming back on them the way the sportster did.
The nanny state is so annoying. In 1992 I bought a new Yamaha Seca 2 without any MC training or experience. I spend about an hour in the parking lot, then rode about 15 miles home. I've been riding fairly consistently but due to a few years of travel work and an interstate move, my license expired. Oregon wants me to take a $200 MSF class to get an endorsement. I've taken the class a couple decades ago and somehow still have the credentials but the beurocracy will not recognize them. I'd rather spend that $200 on fuel money than give a damn thing to the nanny state. But that MSF card stays handy.
Same. Sure, the MSF teaches new riders (*depending on who your instructors are, most are farms to endorse dirty riders) but it's still expensive as hell and there should be an option to just go to the DMV and test instead.
Some places have a thing where you can just skip to the test. But it sounds like you can't do it there.
@ not here, unfortunately, it's almost like a money racket lol
Leave it to the boomer to fully believe they know everything.... too broke to afford $200??
Without the MSF, I wouldn’t be writing this comment. I’d probably be getting fished out a ditch somewhere. I went in with 0 experience and it was safe space to make mistakes and learn quickly. The one guy in my class that had the most riding experience did the worst on the riding test. I crashed the bike into a ditch on the first day and passed my riding test with only one demerit on the second day. The MSF actually worked really well for me, so I advocate for it but I do understand that everyone has a different riding background.
People don’t compare price or specs when they see a vintage car (insert example). But they do with vintage tech Harleys. 😅. I have a ducati but I can appreciate what HD offers.
I really enjoy my Street Bob. I did do the “stage 1” on it. A lot of fun there. I still enjoy my Ducati SS950 as well. I’m a glutton for punishment….. what can I say. 😎
Ride a 22yo YamaHarley RoadStar... love it tho just a simulacrum of a Road King - that said, I would still love to have a Harley.
My bike has like 90k and is in the garage waiting for spring.
Hey Spite, I appreciate your vids, especially this one! I have a 2019 48 with a Stage 3 Kit. And I love it! Today I rode the Nightster 975. At almost 66, I've been thinking about a lighter bike and thought maybe this might do the trick. I thought it felt like riding a sport bike!! I ran it through the modes and the sport mode certainly delivered. But after owning a couple of Iron 883s and similar seating position to the Nightster, I just couldn't see myself trading for it. 5 months ago, I rode the Street Rod 750. I thought the bike had lots of potential. Why H-D dropped it I'll never know! Anyway, thanks again.
I remember reading a certain british magazines review of a Buell and loving it but, that sportster engine...you know! Then Buell got the 1125, a real sports bike engine...but then the lament was...hey , we really miss that sportster engined Buell, its just not the same. It's all about what you need vs what you want.
Great debate. Value is an interesting subject for me because it is subjective. Value can be established from a spec sheet, or from personal needs and desires, cultural and social influences, emotional connection, perceived quality or scarcity and past experiences. Ultimately for me it comes down to how it makes me feel when I ride. I hated Harleys in my younger days but as my sports bike riding friends disappeared right before my eyes, Harley became more appealing. I've been riding Harleys now for over 6 years and I've never been happier. The new 2024 touring models are ace and bring Harley up to date with their competitors.
Have you seen the Pan America Super Scrambler by Black Cycles in Australia?? 😍 Now _that's_ a Harley that really gets my attention!
I feel similar. I love the brand and they have so much potential, but their price and lack of innovation don't line up
2 wheels and wind HD is cool however riding is riding.Thanks for sharing
Damn. Thought you were going to convince me to like them. Turns out we are all RIGHT. No one under 45 years old has ever seen a Harley worth looking at
Complicated, that's how Matt describes my relationship with them as well lol. I'd fairly certain I have a longer wrap sheet with them if you want to compare. I disagree with the sportsters being comically expensive though, if you compare the 2025 sportster prices to the 2025 Scout prices, the Sportsters are cheaper buy about $1000. I do love that new Pan Am ST. I think I need that one
I don't understand the Pan Am ST.
Why would I buy it when the regular Pan Am can do everything the ST does, and also has the option of going off road?
How long did you ride the 750 becoming up..?
I road the 750s for like 18 months. I started on the Street 750 then the street rod
As far some of the bikes I like them. I wouldn't mind having an older soft tail, one with the "vibes" for cruising around and I like the PanAm, XR1200 and a few others. Wish they'd take more risks on producing capable affordable bikes in fact because I think people would like them.
What we typically don't like is the cosplay culture and the overpriced baggers for said cosplayers... as well as how the Co does biz and never branches out.
I think my assessment is fair lol
That's totally fair. I think if more folks thought like that instead of straight "harley bad" we could communicate our wants more clearly to the company. They do listen to riders, just not all riders.
@spitescorner "Harleys bad" is an umbrella reaction to cosplay, t shirt company over trying to innovate and a lot of the core rider base.
I wish they'd have kept Buell and kept innovating those--- Buell's are good bikes the EBR 1190 is sick AF and with limited resources behind it. There's just so much HD could have done other than what they're stereotyped for lol
Triumph makes a bit of everything and HD should have evolved into that.
I saw a SV (not sure which one) when you guys pulled over. You pointed out the Aprilia and referred to the Pan America later on. Believe it or not, my Honda Hawk GT has a similar "burble" exhaust note when going down the highway to your Sportster.
SV1000. That bike's motor blew up after I turned the camera off.
@@spitescorner Whoah!! I don't know that much about the SV 1000's. I went to a Hawk GT rally about 20 years back, and several of the Hawk GT club members had TL 1000s at that rally. Only exposure I had to them. I used to own a 01 SV 650 which I loved. Still wondering why I sold it!
I rode the CVO ST, and yea it is super expensive, but, if I had the money, I would... I totally would. That engine is such a gem. But yea, I'd take a Pursuit over any of the non CVO ST road glides especially now that they have the 112. I can not wait to compare a 112 Challenger to a CVO ST
They look SO good too. Especially the white one with the red drop H logo and the carbon fiber. I want to check one out but they're so expensive.
@@spitescorner I got a chance to test rode a CVO ST, Pan America CVO, and the new Road Glide with the tour pack during moto GP at COTA couple of months ago. I have the footage but I've just gotten a cold feet from utube stuff. I dont know if I wanna edit those etc.
Seriously dude, I hope you get to ride one. It is so good. It revs so fast and so alive, it really is like a shot of adrenaline. But yea... it is twice the price of my truck's current market value.
And holy crap... nobody told me Pan America is a frkin beast. Most underrated HD
I thought you weren’t digging the breakout with that air filter
Harley is doing the classic publicly listed company thing where they prioritize profits for the next 5 years and just sell the shares when they’re at peak value. Then something happens, sales tank, the government bails them out, the cycle continues anew.
I know spite is talking about my Kawasaki Vulcan 650s as one of the kawasakis he didn’t enjoy . It’s a great bike for the price and my size . I got way more compliments on my Kawasaki than my KTM .
That South Park intro is hilarious. 😆
Always swore I'd never buy one. I bought a Fat Bob. At this point I think I've put as much into it as I paid for it in the first place. It's heavy. It's not exactly nimble. I wouldn't use the term 'smooth' to describe anything about it. I think that's why I love it.
To me the point will always be that they are too expensive.
I get it btw.
The brand, the legacy, the style, that cool factor. I see pictures of those bikes and I wish could own one, and I dont even know why, but that's how beautiful they are, they make you want one.
But that's way too intangible when all I want is a bike. And money wise, you get more bike with other brands.
So, most likely I am in the wrong crowd.
The PA ST makes sense since most people don't off road ADVs and I do like low ride height. There are far more HD haters on YT than this channel.
The Pan America is an absolute beast. My son owns one, and I may have to grab one when the manufacturing comes back to the states. I own a 2019 street glide along with a couple of Ducati’s. The new baggers just don’t appeal to me though.
Im in New Braunfels and was curious if theres another route planner that isnt so expensive. $47 is a little steep. My go to is out Canyon Lake way back down Devils Backbone to San Marcos but it just isnt long enough a ride.
“ You just go straight and pull in the clutch … it’s not that hard 🤷♂️ “
😆
Sick shirt! I discovered Orbit Culture when i saw them open for Slipknot in September in Toronto. Huge fan now.
I think the new 1250 ST looks good for a road bike version of the Pan Am. I noticed they have deleted the resonator box. I hate it on my Pan Am, it cooks my ankle. I have two HD's, first 1988 Lowrider 80ci Evo, hotted up and with a sidecar, had it since 1989. Second my 2022 Pan America Enthusiasts Collection version, it hasn't been perfect, the alternator failed and they fitted the 2024 upgrade alternator kit. I was in the HD workshop today getting it 3rd service, looking at the new bikes, the CVO touring bike looks cool, but it didn't grab me by the balls and make me want it.
The Evo motors are just magic, especially the old ones with a carb. My old Lowrider is a beast, hot cam, massive flat slide carb, shotgun pipes (that are not too loud, I know you don't like them). Especially with the sidecar and very firm suspension, drifting it around corners in the mountains, without anyone in the chair is magic.
The Pan Am is fantastic, in a completely different way, so many tuning options for the motor and suspension. I have a V&H muffler on it, and it is beautiful.
I do think the modern normal HD bikes are great but they are trading on the name, and too damn expensive.
2025 Pan America ST setup with the 17" wheels is a step in the right direction. Be cool to see what Spite thinks of it given his previous affection towards the Ducati MTS 1260 Pikes Peak.
we have harley riders bodies but sport bike souls....
I love my over priced nightster, the 10.5k they want now is an absolutely appropriate price now. Another great video and I agree with so many points
I am not a fan of the hd pricing which is the only thing stopping me from getting one as i really like the low rider st, but considering i can get a bike from another company a lot cheaper
I have ridden Harleys, competed against them in trials and wouldn't have one as a gift. I'd sell it and get a decent bike that will take me where I want to go.
I have been riding my 1997 Sportster for the past 16 years. I’ve ridden it all over eastern Australia in that time and it’s ALWAYS gotten me where I wanted to go.
For your reference, Australia is the same size as the 48 states of the USA, give or take a few square miles, so this is a large area I’m talking about. Never had any problems with the bike.
I can (and have) strip it down to the last nut and bolt. ONCE, when it turned 25 years old. I replaced wheel bearings, steering head bearings and stuff like brakes (callipers, master cylinders and lines) as well as upgrading to 1275cc’s with barrels and pistons. I put 1” longer shocks on it when I first got it. It came with a 2-1 exhaust system and it goes round corners quickly enough to raise eyebrows of sports bike riders. It produces torque in the 90ft/lb range which drives its 480lb frame along just fine. It doesn’t leak oil, it gets better than 60mpg even when ridden hard. It can lift the front wheel (if I’m not careful) and it will cruise all day at highway speeds. That’s all I need it to do. I’m not even remotely interested in two hundred mph bikes. They’re for the race track and I want to ride on public roads.
If I ever got rid of the Sportster (unlikely) I’d get a Royal Enfield Super Meteor.
Because I like them too.
Riding is about enjoying what you ride. I don’t care what brand or type of bike it is. The constant BS about unreliability hasn’t changed since I kept hearing it about the Triumphs I started out on, three of which were my only form of transport over the decade and a half I owned them. I knew how to look after them is all.
I LIKED the way they vibrated. Made them feel alive. (And me too)
Not your cup of tea? Fine! That’s your choice and you have every right to it, but please just stop with the nonsense about which bike is ‘better’. That’s a subjective opinion that obviously differs between riders. Allow others the right to hold their own opinions and likes and just enjoy the ride. Anything else is just narrow-minded.
Bro what is going on with your cables on the sportster 😂
I didn't zip tie them lol
I believe if they can lower their price and if they do it will be become more popular. Value is often the main thing people go for.
All Harley needs to do to become interesting is make some modern bikes. Get that RevMax engine and make a naked bike in the vein of the Indian FTR. Make an entry level big trail bike. Bam done.
I bought a 2024 Street bob. Initially, it had a few warranty problems, but now it's fixed. I'm so glad I got it when I did. Because this year's release, I am not impressed with. I don't like any of the color choices. (I got the orange one.) And while some of the rider aids are nice, you don't really need them...... And of course they're prices, are once again too high. Not to mentionThey don't make harley's for tall people anymore. Which sucks because i'm six foot six.
I do miss my 2011 Fat bob, I would love another one, but life has other plans sometimes that don't include an all too expensive bike brand.
I love Harley, loved them since i first saw one in "Renegade" during the 90s and my dream bike is an evo softail.
But I can't condone a company for having the cheek of selling 60k bikes and to ask 15k for their STARTER model.
It's a slap in the face of everyone who's not rich, when harley always played on the blue collar image
I personally love the looks/power of the low rider S and the low rider ST.
But I’m late-thirties and have a house so I’m starting to fall out of love with my ninja 600 and sportster. I’m starting to become that old Harley guy. Save me
Now I know why Spite likes all the techno stuff on new bikes. He is new rider. I thought he was older. 2016 wasn't long ago at all. I like him though.
I think that stat of 50% of all motorcycles sold are HD, when it was true was in North America. I don't believe they've ever held that much share globally. Big Red I believe always out sold them even in HDs hayday in the 90's and early 2000's globally.
I learned on the street 500 too!