Really love the test you have been doing on the nine lead rifle rounds. I live in the USA where we’re still able too use lead in rifle rounds but I tried some copper ones out some years ago when they first come out. In 223,243 , 308 and 30/06. These rounds were made by Winchester and they are ballistic tips except for the 223 and 243. We have white tail deer in our country and since I stalk by myself and and disabled I don’t like having a deer run off further for me to have to go get help to drag it out of the wood so I started using a 223 round hollow point and shooting them in the neck. The round drops them dead where they are standing. These 223 rounds run so fast that the impact shatters the neck bones in a deer’s neck. When I dressed the first deer out that I ever shoot with these copper rounds I found that even if the round hadn’t have hit the neck bone that the shock of the round at such a high speed snapped the neck and spinal cord and killed the deer dead. I loose some neck meat but it’s worth it to me not having to drag the animal an extra 100 yards because of a heart shot. If you know our white tail deer you know how big they can get. The ones I kill in and around these mountains dress out over 200 lbs and has some thick hard bones. I haven’t used lead since I tried these and I only hunt with my 223 now since it’s so much lighter than my 308 or 30/06. I can take any game up to a white tail deer with these blisteringly fast little 75 to 90 grain rounds. I even shot a deer with a 55 grain once because I grab the wrong box of ammunition but I was so sure it would work that I tried it that day. I killed a 240 lb 8 point white tail buck with that small round at 150 yards with a neck shot. Thanks again for the great videos. Great help to a lot of people that’s having to change from lead to copper.
I don't normally put my 10p worth into comments sections but this is quite a good topic to discuss. The biggest issue I've found from experience, talking to various other stalkers/ game keepers etc who've tried copper ammunition through their rifles isn't just the fact these rounds hold together almost to well and pass through the animal at a far greater speed than conventional ammo. It's the fact that these rounds just don't seem to want to stop at all. Even on a range with a 99.9% perfect back stop you can clearly hear the round Ricochet....we all try our best to ensure safe backstops of course but a vertical bank behind the deer is almost never present. I think we've come along way with lead free ammo and i'm sure simply allowing the round to break up more on once its expanded would fix this issue but for the moment its still the biggest issue here in the south where a lot of ground is made up of 200ish acre farms surrounded by houses.
Please have a look at the link below. The copper bullets we retrieve from our impact areas and the best of premium lead, like A Square, H Mantel, Partition, Swift A frame all have the more potential to ricochet more than varmint bullets of cheap and cheerful lead core copper jackets. Ultimately any bullets can ricochet. When you HEAR a ricochet, it a tumbling bullet and when the weeeoooww stops, the bullet has landed from its tumbling arc. it is the low ground strikes which slide along the surface and rise again that are the real problem. If you here ricochets, or find skid marks behind your target board, you have an insufficient back stop. Hunting is usually one shot, target sessions and DSC courses can be hundreds of shots. Use enough back stop. Have fun and stay safe, Andrew: www.wmsfirearmstraining.com/andrews-blog/lockdown-illumination-lead-free-rifle-shooting/
Great show, I have noticed that there is never any mention of the fact that the 243 won’t be deer legal in Scotland apart from roe if a lead ban is implemented as a 100 grain bullet won’t stabilise in a 1/10 twist and no one makes one to my knowledge.
Laws seldom reflect modern developments in firearms, bullets and effect. Under Scottish law it is illegal to shoot a deer with a .458WM with a 500gn soft point...suggesting they don't believe it would be humane, or safe in the vast wilderness of Scotlands Highlands?
Try the 80 grain TTSX bullet from a 25-06 at around 3600 fps or so. It turns deer off instantly. A tip for reloading these mono-metal bullets...they need a running start at the lands to avoid pressure spikes, so seat them well short of contact.
I assume that Andrew is using home loads in this piece. For anyone wanting an excellent factory load, I have been using RWS HIT in .308 and am very pleased with their performance. 165g: 2690 ft/s: 2654 ft.lbs.
Good round. This, Hornady GMX and many other all copper rounds work well. Please note that RWS list the .308 Hit as effective to 175m, at which time the Hit 168 is dropping below 700mps or 2,275fps. Barnes and others also point out that the copper bullets expand best over 2,200fps. This is fair and important. Don't use tough copper OR lead cored hunting bullets at ranges at which they impact much below 2,200fps for best results. Expansion is much reduced under 2,200fps unless you are using fragile ballistic tips or varmint hollow points. Hydraulic shock occurs mostly over 2,500fps and becomes increasingly noticeable/effective over 2,600fps. Hunt your quarry before you fire, not afterwards. Closer is better. Good points, thank you.
I tried copper bullets here in Canada and found they just passed through doing far less damage than lead, especially at close ranges. You’d be more apt to wound than kill. The amount of lead introduced by big game hunters to the environment is negligible as most hunters rarely shoot more than once or twice at a deer. At one deer per year per hunter that’s next to nothing. Good luck.
Thanks for the test on non-lead bullets, interesting for me as all of my stalking is in Scotland. The concerns that I hold are not necessarily about terminal performance at 100m, they are more as to how do these bullets perform at slightly further ranges where a 200m shot on a hill stag is not uncommon. Further more, as I am often out with guests, how do these bullets perform at ranges greater than 200m should something go wrong and a follow up shot be required? On another note, what are these bullets’ BC like? Do they have the ability to buck the incredibly strong winds that we often see? Look forward to more on this topic! Thanks!
Check the remaining velocity at the ranges suggested? With lead, or copper once the velocity on well constructed hunting bullets drops below 2,200fps, kills can be slower. www.wmsfirearmstraining.com/andrews-blog/lockdown-illumination-lead-free-rifle-shooting/
Another good show, as ever. It would be really interesting to do this comparison in a controlled environment using ballistic gel to see the size of 'cavity' created within the gel (animal body). That said, I've been using the RWS HIT lead-free (165gr @ 2690ft/sec) for several years, have no issue grouping, or stopping and with limited meat damage. As with all things, we can put our heads in the sand and say that we want to use lead, or alternatively work together to share understanding and move in a positive manner to the new regulatory environment.
Hi Daniel, have a look at this, it shows the gel comparisons and the copper bullets expanding incredibly quickly at the velocities we recommend: www.wmsfirearmstraining.com/andrews-blog/lockdown-illumination-lead-free-rifle-shooting/
Trouble with Barnes 168 grain TSX at 300 plus meters is that they cause shallow wound channels and are as a result slow killers. (deadly out to 200 plus though). Hence now I use 165 Nosler Accubonds, which are deadly at all distances, from Chamois upwards in size. Just my own personal experience
Check out the 130gn TTSX and drive it at 3,000fps+ in a .308. Check the Barnes reloading pages on line. The key is impacting at 2,600fps+. If we load with lead to cope with kills at 300m+ we are using fragile bullets which cause excessive damage at 50-200m. Honestly, I believe the 'long range hunting' thing is best reserved for professional management of feral pest species. Sport hunting is best kept as hunting at sensible distances.
Copper ammunition needs to be compared with lead caliber for caliber target for target so we can see if copper can and will be a more viable option( replacement ). That is a wonderful painting by Teresa Davis, and now I wish I could have some of her painting of wildlife for my walls!
I use copper bullets in my rifle and I don’t see much difference in stopping power at all. Only problem is my rifle isn’t a fan of the Barnes, groups are the best. But if there is a lead ban I’m fine with it. Great episode
Yes led free hunting ammo is very good and capable. The problem with led banning is long range shooting and rimfire shooting. Led free bullets dont perform at longer distances and are very expensive.
Then reload. I use copper bullets since 8 years. Light and fast is the best for deformators. I use them in 222 243 270 308 300win . Mostly reloaded from me.
Long range hunting is an oxymoron. The purpose, challenge and joy of hunting is to get close enough to be certain, with a back up plan just incase. Hunt quarry, shoot targets. Good question re .22rf, that part of the industry seems to be asleep, in denial and at risk.
@@peterhert9350 Reloading doesnt make up for the simple facts: Led free ammo has a very bad sectional density and low bc compared to led core bullets. They are very big for their weight and require a different twist rate because of it. Lathe turned bullets are also super expensive. Im not talking about hunting in this, I'm talking about target shooting. Also copper bullets need a higher pressure to release.
be interesting see copper rounds in action in smaller calibers 22lr 17 hmr see the results of those as in end all ammo we use for shooting gonna have be lead free
Most people's bitching point with going lead free is not about just not using lead, it's about being shafted in the pocket. What's the price difference in in average hunting bullets between lead and non lead? Can bet your arse they aren't cheap! This might not be too bad for a .243 or .308 hunting round where you might only fire 50 shots a year but what happens when they try to trickle that down to shooting any quarry with a rifle. How much is viable lead free air gun or 22lr or 17hmr ammunition going to cost when you as could be hitting 50 plus rabbits a night?
I`ve been trying different makes of non Lead bullets through my .270 Win for a few years now, some just gave clean Calibre size pass throughs where the Deer ran a long distance, while others gave great expansion and `instant` kills. But in ALL cases accuracy and group size were significantly worse than my usual Sierra Gamekings. I`ll keep experimenting because our Leaders are dead set on getting rid of Lead.
Hello I switched to copper 10 years ago, having found lead flecks in undamaged meat. I did do experiments with copper and lead and chose the Barnes X at the time now the TTSX. More expensive compared to lead but more effective in knock down and penetration. One point I will make and I use my 30 years experience on animals for this. You are wrong to generalise in saying the lead bullet kills by fragmentation. Lead Bullets for deer are designed to expand, increase in surface area and retain their weight. It kills by dumping the energy into the animal causing damage. Fragmentation of lead bullets is an unavoidable side effect. However some lead bullets are designed for fragmentation. These are designed for pest control for fox and rabbit. Copper bullets for deer don't fragment but expand the surface area. It reacts quicker and does not lose any weight and provides an exit hole. Yes, it is a fact you have to use more speed on the bullet to get it to work and load it further from the lands to get great accuracy. BUT if you drive them too fast, the petals may brake off. The expansion effect is reduce and the hydraulic damage to meat will be excessive. I achieve quick clean kills with a 30 caliber bullet at 2800 for red, fallow, roe and muntjac. Quick kills without wasting 3-4 pounds of meat turned to jelly. I have to use a heavier bullet to do this. I would love to use 110 grain bullets and have the great accuracy but not at the cost of wasted meat. This is my experience with copper on animals and not just water. I use 30 caliber with 168 grain bullets to avoid excessive meat damage caused by smaller calibers and or faster bullets. This comes from my own experience of using .243 both lead and copper and butchering my own carcasses. If I kill an animal as part of a cull, I want to maximise its value as food. On a recent visit to my game dealer just before lockdown, I was thanked by the butcher for always providing clean chest shot carcasses. I do head shoot animals when it is appropriate but even chest shot muntjac are worth butchering. One observation from the early testing I did is that sometimes the exit wound will block with lung or other material blocking the exit wound and reducing the blood trail. On the plus side the copper bullets tend to knock the animal down much quicker. I do find the tip occasionally in the animal but no lead!!! The change or preparedness for change is the way forward and your video is a great start. Your video will help change attitudes so we are prepared for the lead ban. Please don't confuse this comment with pure killing power. There has been many debates about small caliber high speed being effective killers and they are, so is a 50 caliber. All will kill cleanly even the smaller calibers, with good shot placement, but what do you get to eat? Perhaps the DSC2 should contain a section called "you killed it now you prepare it as food". Feel free to draw your own conclusions but always respect your quarry and don't waste its life.
You're right there. Filming for Fieldsports Channel, I have seen everything from a bit dead to outright dead. I would always go for at least highly dead. / Charlie
It's a really good point. I have seen input with people saying the bullet 'failed' yet was recovered from a dead animal. It is not a failure to kill, it is a technical observation about the bullets condition. There is a 'fashion' at the moment for thinking an instant 'drop' is preferably to a short run as the animal bleeds out and collapses. In all of hunting history a bit of 'blood tracking' has been acceptable. Pressure for 'instant drops' can lead to more wounding from messed up head shots, massive meat loss from over fast and frangible bullets, etc. A clean and full penetration chest shot with good expansion is still the safest and most humane recipe for a clean kill when considering all aspects and risks. Really good question, thanks.
At the moment, cost wise the all copper bullet loads are the same sort of price as he premium hunting loads, on the basis they are premium I guess. The bullets for reloading are about the same price for 50 as the better lead cored bullets are per hundred. For hunting, I don't think it matters, an extra £1.00, € or $ for a clean killed animal with more edible meat left...
An great informative show fella's, with the lead free bullets, try Impala Bullets, they have them fro 17 cal upwards in the Light Weight High Velocity (LWHV), they also have Conical Flat Nose (CFN) and Round Nose Flat Point (RNFP) here's the link to their web site (impalabullets.co.za) or Woodleigh Bullets they Hydrostatically Stabilised projectiles from 7mm (.284") upwards and the VLD Brass Solid in the big game calibers, link to their web site is (woodleighbullets.com.au). If I was Will Thompson I would be giving Frederic Hanner from Blaser a very nice bottle of whiskey, it goes to prove there is still decient and caring people in the world still and he is a hunter to! Airline to use for transporting your firearms Qantas is excellent and they have flight routes all over the world. Cheers Everyone.
Hornady GMX bullets as several other ammo makers have been out there for years. And if we all used lead free we could take the air out of the excuses the antis use when they want ranges shut down for air pollution of lead particles
What's a Z between friends? Yes, you are correct. Input appreciated. I also said the TSX was 80gn...when it is 85gn, shows it is live, spontaneous and we learn a little every day... ;-)
The armed forces have been firing copper into people with precision for year's I don't understand why everyone else has stuck with lead to be honest. If you can kill a man at 300 metres away with a 5.56 x 45mm I don't think hunters will have any issues. It's based on the .223 Remington. It can penetrate 3mm steel at 600 metres. As for grouping I achieved a 28mm 5 round grouping at 200 metres.
Does anyone know what that cheek riser is? Brand wise that is. -EDIT: Nevermind, turned resolution up and read "Bearproof" www.bearskin.se/en/artiklar/bearproof-precision.html
"Lead bullets kill by fragmentation" wrong!!! No they do not. They kill by both hydraulic shock and bullet placement in relation to internal haemorrage and nerve/organ damage. Fragmentation contributes to this but is NOT the primary mechanism. Please do not mislead. I am deeply sceptical of anyone pushing copper over lead except purely in constraints such as forestry and general deer shooting requirements in Scotland. That affects the minority of shooters so I wont be supporting any wholesale change as such blunt changes affect all shooters including target and especially long range target shooters . Copper is no suitable replacement for lead in such circumstances. There is also the increased risk of through and through at high velocities and ricochets which highlights some drawbacks of copper. If it is forced on us you falsley state that the transition will effectively be catestrophic. It will kill long range shooting for sure but for hunting it will not be catestrophic.. it will require load development and need understanding of external and external ballistics plus be less effective in some circumstances. Lead bullets already exist which dont fragment such as speer gold tips which form similar petals without breaking up. It is entirely possible to keep lead and follow such designs as the speer if concerned. I'll be continuing to use lead thankyou very much.
Pity you didn’t show both the lead and copper for their respective rounds but if you had done that with a .270 win copper federal 130gr round it would have gone through the lot like a rod. Great roe round but absolutely useless on anything else just slices through.
It may be that with roe and .270, a 110gn would be preferably at higher velocity? www.wmsfirearmstraining.com/andrews-blog/lockdown-illumination-lead-free-rifle-shooting/
WMS Firearms Training Ltd Andrew I don’t doubt that at 110g it would be ridiculously fast but also practically speaking unless you reload it’s impractical and I doubt highly a factory non toxic 110gr bullet on a 150kg stag is anywhere as humane or offers decent margin for error. I can only speak from factory ammo here in the uk that I have tried as I don’t reload and it’s just simply not up to the task at the moment. The last six stags i shot with copper rounds looked like they had been rodded through.
Lead free rifle bullets......honestly why why why why why why....... unless you can find somthing denser that deforms better then i am in. Other than that piss off its a non issue that shaggs my ballistics.
Massive kudos to Frederic from Blaser for helping get things sorted for a complete stranger. Top man!
Really love the test you have been doing on the nine lead rifle rounds. I live in the USA where we’re still able too use lead in rifle rounds but I tried some copper ones out some years ago when they first come out. In 223,243 , 308 and 30/06. These rounds were made by Winchester and they are ballistic tips except for the 223 and 243. We have white tail deer in our country and since I stalk by myself and and disabled I don’t like having a deer run off further for me to have to go get help to drag it out of the wood so I started using a 223 round hollow point and shooting them in the neck. The round drops them dead where they are standing. These 223 rounds run so fast that the impact shatters the neck bones in a deer’s neck. When I dressed the first deer out that I ever shoot with these copper rounds I found that even if the round hadn’t have hit the neck bone that the shock of the round at such a high speed snapped the neck and spinal cord and killed the deer dead. I loose some neck meat but it’s worth it to me not having to drag the animal an extra 100 yards because of a heart shot. If you know our white tail deer you know how big they can get. The ones I kill in and around these mountains dress out over 200 lbs and has some thick hard bones. I haven’t used lead since I tried these and I only hunt with my 223 now since it’s so much lighter than my 308 or 30/06. I can take any game up to a white tail deer with these blisteringly fast little 75 to 90 grain rounds. I even shot a deer with a 55 grain once because I grab the wrong box of ammunition but I was so sure it would work that I tried it that day. I killed a 240 lb 8 point white tail buck with that small round at 150 yards with a neck shot. Thanks again for the great videos. Great help to a lot of people that’s having to change from lead to copper.
thanks for the mention Charlie & the team
I don't normally put my 10p worth into comments sections but this is quite a good topic to discuss.
The biggest issue I've found from experience, talking to various other stalkers/ game keepers etc who've tried copper ammunition through their rifles isn't just the fact these rounds hold together almost to well and pass through the animal at a far greater speed than conventional ammo. It's the fact that these rounds just don't seem to want to stop at all. Even on a range with a 99.9% perfect back stop you can clearly hear the round Ricochet....we all try our best to ensure safe backstops of course but a vertical bank behind the deer is almost never present.
I think we've come along way with lead free ammo and i'm sure simply allowing the round to break up more on once its expanded would fix this issue but for the moment its still the biggest issue here in the south where a lot of ground is made up of 200ish acre farms surrounded by houses.
Thanks. Good points. / Charlie
Please have a look at the link below. The copper bullets we retrieve from our impact areas and the best of premium lead, like A Square, H Mantel, Partition, Swift A frame all have the more potential to ricochet more than varmint bullets of cheap and cheerful lead core copper jackets. Ultimately any bullets can ricochet. When you HEAR a ricochet, it a tumbling bullet and when the weeeoooww stops, the bullet has landed from its tumbling arc. it is the low ground strikes which slide along the surface and rise again that are the real problem. If you here ricochets, or find skid marks behind your target board, you have an insufficient back stop. Hunting is usually one shot, target sessions and DSC courses can be hundreds of shots. Use enough back stop. Have fun and stay safe, Andrew: www.wmsfirearmstraining.com/andrews-blog/lockdown-illumination-lead-free-rifle-shooting/
Great show, I have noticed that there is never any mention of the fact that the 243 won’t be deer legal in Scotland apart from roe if a lead ban is implemented as a 100 grain bullet won’t stabilise in a 1/10 twist and no one makes one to my knowledge.
Laws seldom reflect modern developments in firearms, bullets and effect. Under Scottish law it is illegal to shoot a deer with a .458WM with a 500gn soft point...suggesting they don't believe it would be humane, or safe in the vast wilderness of Scotlands Highlands?
I have a cat and a dog looking behind the tv for what was squeaking when jaf was trying to call the fox in 😂😂 great show as always 👍
😆
:)
I would suggest going for shoulder shots to add resistance with copper bullets. The lung only shots just make little holes.
www.wmsfirearmstraining.com/andrews-blog/lockdown-illumination-lead-free-rifle-shooting/
I would instead suggest that HILAR is the more humane shot and ought to be the one taught in dsc1.
Good onya! Frederick from Blaser.
Try the 80 grain TTSX bullet from a 25-06 at around 3600 fps or so. It turns deer off instantly. A tip for reloading these mono-metal bullets...they need a running start at the lands to avoid pressure spikes, so seat them well short of contact.
I assume that Andrew is using home loads in this piece. For anyone wanting an excellent factory load, I have been using RWS HIT in .308 and am very pleased with their performance. 165g: 2690 ft/s: 2654 ft.lbs.
I use not over 150grain copper in 308 Up to 150m. 130grain for longer distance. They need speed. Faster is better.
Good round. This, Hornady GMX and many other all copper rounds work well. Please note that RWS list the .308 Hit as effective to 175m, at which time the Hit 168 is dropping below 700mps or 2,275fps. Barnes and others also point out that the copper bullets expand best over 2,200fps. This is fair and important. Don't use tough copper OR lead cored hunting bullets at ranges at which they impact much below 2,200fps for best results. Expansion is much reduced under 2,200fps unless you are using fragile ballistic tips or varmint hollow points. Hydraulic shock occurs mostly over 2,500fps and becomes increasingly noticeable/effective over 2,600fps. Hunt your quarry before you fire, not afterwards. Closer is better. Good points, thank you.
I tried copper bullets here in Canada and found they just passed through doing far less damage than lead, especially at close ranges. You’d be more apt to wound than kill. The amount of lead introduced by big game hunters to the environment is negligible as most hunters rarely shoot more than once or twice at a deer. At one deer per year per hunter that’s next to nothing. Good luck.
Velocity is the thing. Go light for calibre and fast...
Thanks for the test on non-lead bullets, interesting for me as all of my stalking is in Scotland. The concerns that I hold are not necessarily about terminal performance at 100m, they are more as to how do these bullets perform at slightly further ranges where a 200m shot on a hill stag is not uncommon. Further more, as I am often out with guests, how do these bullets perform at ranges greater than 200m should something go wrong and a follow up shot be required? On another note, what are these bullets’ BC like? Do they have the ability to buck the incredibly strong winds that we often see? Look forward to more on this topic! Thanks!
Check the remaining velocity at the ranges suggested? With lead, or copper once the velocity on well constructed hunting bullets drops below 2,200fps, kills can be slower. www.wmsfirearmstraining.com/andrews-blog/lockdown-illumination-lead-free-rifle-shooting/
Great show as usual. Thank you
Another good show, as ever. It would be really interesting to do this comparison in a controlled environment using ballistic gel to see the size of 'cavity' created within the gel (animal body). That said, I've been using the RWS HIT lead-free (165gr @ 2690ft/sec) for several years, have no issue grouping, or stopping and with limited meat damage.
As with all things, we can put our heads in the sand and say that we want to use lead, or alternatively work together to share understanding and move in a positive manner to the new regulatory environment.
Hi Daniel, have a look at this, it shows the gel comparisons and the copper bullets expanding incredibly quickly at the velocities we recommend: www.wmsfirearmstraining.com/andrews-blog/lockdown-illumination-lead-free-rifle-shooting/
Great show once again chaps, nice driving Jaf
Ha cheers dean 😆
Thanks for the mention in the hunting youtube feature.
Good film of yours. Keep it up. / Charlie
Trouble with Barnes 168 grain TSX at 300 plus meters is that they cause shallow wound channels and are as a result slow killers. (deadly out to 200 plus though). Hence now I use 165 Nosler Accubonds, which are deadly at all distances, from Chamois upwards in size. Just my own personal experience
Check out the 130gn TTSX and drive it at 3,000fps+ in a .308. Check the Barnes reloading pages on line. The key is impacting at 2,600fps+. If we load with lead to cope with kills at 300m+ we are using fragile bullets which cause excessive damage at 50-200m. Honestly, I believe the 'long range hunting' thing is best reserved for professional management of feral pest species. Sport hunting is best kept as hunting at sensible distances.
Copper ammunition needs to be compared with lead caliber for caliber target for target so we can see if copper can and will be a more viable option( replacement ).
That is a wonderful painting by Teresa Davis, and now I wish I could have some of her painting of wildlife for my walls!
Informative show as always.
I use copper bullets in my rifle and I don’t see much difference in stopping power at all. Only problem is my rifle isn’t a fan of the Barnes, groups are the best. But if there is a lead ban I’m fine with it. Great episode
Yes led free hunting ammo is very good and capable. The problem with led banning is long range shooting and rimfire shooting. Led free bullets dont perform at longer distances and are very expensive.
Then reload. I use copper bullets since 8 years. Light and fast is the best for deformators. I use them in 222 243 270 308 300win . Mostly reloaded from me.
Long range hunting is an oxymoron. The purpose, challenge and joy of hunting is to get close enough to be certain, with a back up plan just incase. Hunt quarry, shoot targets. Good question re .22rf, that part of the industry seems to be asleep, in denial and at risk.
@@peterhert9350 Reloading doesnt make up for the simple facts: Led free ammo has a very bad sectional density and low bc compared to led core bullets. They are very big for their weight and require a different twist rate because of it. Lathe turned bullets are also super expensive. Im not talking about hunting in this, I'm talking about target shooting. Also copper bullets need a higher pressure to release.
@@Wmsfirearmstraining I dont know if you were respoding to me but I wasnt talking about long range hunting. I was talking about long range shooting
be interesting see copper rounds in action in smaller calibers 22lr 17 hmr see the results of those as in end all ammo we use for shooting gonna have be lead free
Cci makes copper .22 lr ammo at something around1800fps. It's a tack driving round in most guns to 100 yards. 22plinkster did a youtube review on it.
Most people's bitching point with going lead free is not about just not using lead, it's about being shafted in the pocket. What's the price difference in in average hunting bullets between lead and non lead? Can bet your arse they aren't cheap! This might not be too bad for a .243 or .308 hunting round where you might only fire 50 shots a year but what happens when they try to trickle that down to shooting any quarry with a rifle. How much is viable lead free air gun or 22lr or 17hmr ammunition going to cost when you as could be hitting 50 plus rabbits a night?
I`ve been trying different makes of non Lead bullets through my .270 Win for a few years now, some just gave clean Calibre size pass throughs where the Deer ran a long distance, while others gave great expansion and `instant` kills. But in ALL cases accuracy and group size were significantly worse than my usual Sierra Gamekings. I`ll keep experimenting because our Leaders are dead set on getting rid of Lead.
“You can even feed birds of prey copper!”
At what velocity?
Only joking 😂
I’ve been using Barnes vor-tx 130gr for a while and it works just fine.
Hahaha
Hello I switched to copper 10 years ago, having found lead flecks in undamaged meat. I did do experiments with copper and lead and chose the Barnes X at the time now the TTSX. More expensive compared to lead but more effective in knock down and penetration. One point I will make and I use my 30 years experience on animals for this. You are wrong to generalise in saying the lead bullet kills by fragmentation. Lead Bullets for deer are designed to expand, increase in surface area and retain their weight. It kills by dumping the energy into the animal causing damage. Fragmentation of lead bullets is an unavoidable side effect. However some lead bullets are designed for fragmentation. These are designed for pest control for fox and rabbit. Copper bullets for deer don't fragment but expand the surface area. It reacts quicker and does not lose any weight and provides an exit hole. Yes, it is a fact you have to use more speed on the bullet to get it to work and load it further from the lands to get great accuracy. BUT if you drive them too fast, the petals may brake off. The expansion effect is reduce and the hydraulic damage to meat will be excessive. I achieve quick clean kills with a 30 caliber bullet at 2800 for red, fallow, roe and muntjac. Quick kills without wasting 3-4 pounds of meat turned to jelly. I have to use a heavier bullet to do this. I would love to use 110 grain bullets and have the great accuracy but not at the cost of wasted meat. This is my experience with copper on animals and not just water. I use 30 caliber with 168 grain bullets to avoid excessive meat damage caused by smaller calibers and or faster bullets. This comes from my own experience of using .243 both lead and copper and butchering my own carcasses. If I kill an animal as part of a cull, I want to maximise its value as food. On a recent visit to my game dealer just before lockdown, I was thanked by the butcher for always providing clean chest shot carcasses. I do head shoot animals when it is appropriate but even chest shot muntjac are worth butchering. One observation from the early testing I did is that sometimes the exit wound will block with lung or other material blocking the exit wound and reducing the blood trail. On the plus side the copper bullets tend to knock the animal down much quicker. I do find the tip occasionally in the animal but no lead!!!
The change or preparedness for change is the way forward and your video is a great start. Your video will help change attitudes so we are prepared for the lead ban. Please don't confuse this comment with pure killing power. There has been many debates about small caliber high speed being effective killers and they are, so is a 50 caliber. All will kill cleanly even the smaller calibers, with good shot placement, but what do you get to eat? Perhaps the DSC2 should contain a section called "you killed it now you prepare it as food". Feel free to draw your own conclusions but always respect your quarry and don't waste its life.
Thank you, Chris. / Charlie
It's that the mauser m12 inpact
4:15
Btw just was curious of what degree of being dead does an animal shot have to be?
Definitely the more dead the better. I hate it when they are only just dead.
You're right there. Filming for Fieldsports Channel, I have seen everything from a bit dead to outright dead. I would always go for at least highly dead. / Charlie
I prefer medium dead, you get the best of both worlds.
It's a really good point. I have seen input with people saying the bullet 'failed' yet was recovered from a dead animal. It is not a failure to kill, it is a technical observation about the bullets condition. There is a 'fashion' at the moment for thinking an instant 'drop' is preferably to a short run as the animal bleeds out and collapses. In all of hunting history a bit of 'blood tracking' has been acceptable. Pressure for 'instant drops' can lead to more wounding from messed up head shots, massive meat loss from over fast and frangible bullets, etc. A clean and full penetration chest shot with good expansion is still the safest and most humane recipe for a clean kill when considering all aspects and risks. Really good question, thanks.
How expensive are they though
I can't say for the UK, but here in the US they're about 150% the cost of a Nosler Partition.
At the moment, cost wise the all copper bullet loads are the same sort of price as he premium hunting loads, on the basis they are premium I guess. The bullets for reloading are about the same price for 50 as the better lead cored bullets are per hundred. For hunting, I don't think it matters, an extra £1.00, € or $ for a clean killed animal with more edible meat left...
Enjoyed it thanks.
An great informative show fella's, with the lead free bullets, try Impala Bullets, they have them fro 17 cal upwards in the Light Weight High Velocity (LWHV), they also have Conical Flat Nose (CFN) and Round Nose Flat Point (RNFP) here's the link to their web site (impalabullets.co.za) or Woodleigh Bullets they Hydrostatically Stabilised projectiles from 7mm (.284") upwards and the VLD Brass Solid in the big game calibers, link to their web site is (woodleighbullets.com.au). If I was Will Thompson I would be giving Frederic Hanner from Blaser a very nice bottle of whiskey, it goes to prove there is still decient and caring people in the world still and he is a hunter to! Airline to use for transporting your firearms Qantas is excellent and they have flight routes all over the world. Cheers Everyone.
Hornady GMX bullets as several other ammo makers have been out there for years. And if we all used lead free we could take the air out of the excuses the antis use when they want ranges shut down for air pollution of lead particles
The right move i believe. Let the industry find the solution not to be imposed.
The Copper mines are in Zambia, not Zimbabwe. Not much money to be made from Copper mines in Zim lol
What's a Z between friends? Yes, you are correct. Input appreciated. I also said the TSX was 80gn...when it is 85gn, shows it is live, spontaneous and we learn a little every day... ;-)
I will not be flying Lufthansa after this.
The armed forces have been firing copper into people with precision for year's I don't understand why everyone else has stuck with lead to be honest. If you can kill a man at 300 metres away with a 5.56 x 45mm I don't think hunters will have any issues. It's based on the .223 Remington. It can penetrate 3mm steel at 600 metres.
As for grouping I achieved a 28mm 5 round grouping at 200 metres.
The military do not use solid copper rounds, they use FMJ as full metal jacket. And internal composition is lead and steel cores.
@@michaelkearon9892 It has been tungsten for many years now I believe.
Does anyone know what that cheek riser is? Brand wise that is. -EDIT: Nevermind, turned resolution up and read "Bearproof" www.bearskin.se/en/artiklar/bearproof-precision.html
Bearproof from Sweden, cannot find them now in the UK. Anyone know of a similar velcro fit cheek raiser? They work really well.
Well done the Blaser man !
"Lead bullets kill by fragmentation" wrong!!! No they do not. They kill by both hydraulic shock and bullet placement in relation to internal haemorrage and nerve/organ damage. Fragmentation contributes to this but is NOT the primary mechanism. Please do not mislead. I am deeply sceptical of anyone pushing copper over lead except purely in constraints such as forestry and general deer shooting requirements in Scotland. That affects the minority of shooters so I wont be supporting any wholesale change as such blunt changes affect all shooters including target and especially long range target shooters . Copper is no suitable replacement for lead in such circumstances. There is also the increased risk of through and through at high velocities and ricochets which highlights some drawbacks of copper. If it is forced on us you falsley state that the transition will effectively be catestrophic. It will kill long range shooting for sure but for hunting it will not be catestrophic.. it will require load development and need understanding of external and external ballistics plus be less effective in some circumstances.
Lead bullets already exist which dont fragment such as speer gold tips which form similar petals without breaking up. It is entirely possible to keep lead and follow such designs as the speer if concerned. I'll be continuing to use lead thankyou very much.
Pity you didn’t show both the lead and copper for their respective rounds but if you had done that with a .270 win copper federal 130gr round it would have gone through the lot like a rod. Great roe round but absolutely useless on anything else just slices through.
It may be that with roe and .270, a 110gn would be preferably at higher velocity? www.wmsfirearmstraining.com/andrews-blog/lockdown-illumination-lead-free-rifle-shooting/
WMS Firearms Training Ltd Andrew I don’t doubt that at 110g it would be ridiculously fast but also practically speaking unless you reload it’s impractical and I doubt highly a factory non toxic 110gr bullet on a 150kg stag is anywhere as humane or offers decent margin for error. I can only speak from factory ammo here in the uk that I have tried as I don’t reload and it’s just simply not up to the task at the moment. The last six stags i shot with copper rounds looked like they had been rodded through.
Need to send 308 round out faster,3,100 FPS or you will not get full expansion,but can be a meat muncher.
It's not castleweeland its castlewellan pronounced castle well an lol
Lead free rifle bullets......honestly why why why why why why....... unless you can find somthing denser that deforms better then i am in. Other than that piss off its a non issue that shaggs my ballistics.