The most egregious aspect of the Lion King remake is that real baby lions are SUPER expressive. They just made Simba’s face-rig stay rigid like a rock because it ‘felt more real’. It’s disappointing.
Heck, one of the reason the internet fell in love with cats (of all sizes) is how much emotion they have in their body language (if not their faces). Live Action Simba looks less like a CG lion and more like an animatronic puppet.
I really struggle with wanting to keep expressions “pretty,” especially on characters meant to be beautiful. I think that kind of relates to the whole off-model thing, somewhat...I don’t want to go “off-model” for this pretty character, even if I know a scene will have more punch with an uglier expression.
* I clicked on your channel. Only saw one old video, though. * I'm sure you'll get there. *nods* When you get good at it you can make the beautiful character look beautiful in a wide variety of expressions. Also, a lot more people than you think that look at your work might really like seeing that pretty character go off model for once. ;) You might wanna take some risks and experiment and see what other people- AND YOU!- think. Maybe you're always thinking the pretty character needs to be beautiful, as if 'beautiful' itself is an expression, or that beauty is the point of the character? If you make a character that's supposed to be like a doll, always reserved in the most beautiful expression, that could work great, and then with others... I really think the fact that you are aware that you have this issue means you'll fix it if you just keep improving and loosen up a bit. Loosening up will get you off model and find how far off model you need to go, and will lead to more powerful scenes, and continual improvement of art will help you keep them beautiful throughout. Maybe the practice Brookes showed us he does when he goes out of his comfort zone will really help YOU a lot. :) I think you should probably try finding cartoon characters AND people that you find to be beautiful and take a close look at what they look like in... um... more ugly expressions? And lastly, maybe it would be good practice to draw more non-pretty characters?
What a great break down of expression here. I’m not an artist but this even helps a writer like myself to think how I use expression in my stories. Describing body language in words emphasizes emotion to the reader without stating it straightforwardly. The break down of direct lines in the face and body helped me expand that utility belt of physical description to get an emotional point across. Thanks!
The Netflix interpretation of the Jungle Book " Mowgli Legend of the Jungle" does the live-action animal thing in a more expressive way then the new lion king. The animal's faces are more stylized. In a way that leans toward facial acting. I think it strikes a better balance for both camps.
I am making a fanfic for Pokemon, (basically my gameplay PokePark 2), I have drawn three characters' concept arts already. The main characters will look different, with differently shaped spots and body parts, and different colored eyes, as well as different hair. They each will have names too, Snivy is known as Sabine, Pikachu is known as Ace, and the Minccino npc that wants to return something to a Trubbish is known as Selena. Ace and Selena have different typings too. Ace was the first one I drew, from the start i knew what i wanted, stubby tailed Pikachu. He would look tough, but of course crippled, because as most of us know Iron Tail is something Pikachu use alot in battle. His tail also has no brown on it. Ace also has a bit of spiky fluff on his forehead, showing he isn't crippled despite his tail. His eyes are blue, and his face is shy, but confident. And his top stripe is lighting shaped. The text describing him of course flat describes what want out of him, as much as this text does, his features apparently do too. Everyone i show him to says he screams personality from everything. I not sure if it's the right personality i want, but at least it's there. Ace is Electric and Phychic type, making him able to use a move of his own equal to a strong Iron Tail. Selena is Ace's crush, and she is pretty and fluffy, just as i want her to be. Her sideswept and purple eyes make me thing of someone who has a nice voice, and she has heart represent Ace's love for her. She is typed Fairy and Dark, showing she is different and more powerful than the rest of the npc Minccino. Sabine, well, kind of screams regal too much, but it kind of suits her because that what i thought of when i heard she was princess. Regal o the outside, secretly sassy in the inside. Idk i think i need some help on how protray Sabine, so could any PokePark2 players help? If you're not one, that's fine too, i need all help i can get. This is gonna be a big animation project for sure. (XD what have gotten myself into?) Edit: What you said about the Lion King is good to know about. It'll help me for animationing in general and animating my Lion Guard fanfic. FYI the Lion Gaurd is about Simba's 2nd cub, who finds himself with being destined with Scar's old job, protecting the Pridelands. Kion, Simba's son and 2nd cub, asembles his friends, non-lions, to join his gaurd. But of course, he is supposed to get lions to join, thus the show bing called the Lion Gaurd. But in the end Kion and his non-lion friends prove that they can do things even if they aren't what they asked for. (Kion's friends are actually more they asked for, a skill that they naturally have is asked of each member, being feircest, fastest, bravest, and strongest, and keenest of sight, and him having a cheetah, a bird, a hippo, and a Honey bager (aka a creature that is not afraid of anything and even picks fights with lions despite being the size of a large housecat). Thanks to some weird magic, Scar returns, as well as Kion being cursed to become evil, so they set of to cure him. In the end Kion falls in love with another lion who is queen of another kingdom, and the other members fall in love with other animals too besides the hippo and bird.
I would be more forgiving of the "live action" Disney remakes if they didn't create them so much to be a shot-for-shot recreation of the original. As you pointed out, the 2D animation style goes for very different expressive techniques. They should have gone in more creative directions, better suited to a different medium. But then, I guess that would be too "risky", and their whole motivation is just to cash in on nostalgia...
I love how during this video your own facial expressions are also showing what you are talking about (Intentional or subconciously doing it... still coool)
I didnt know you can use a real life reference for a cartoon character that doesnt even have the same body or anything! Its truly about capturing the essense and im thankful that i know now
Janbert Guerrero Check out behind the scenes of old school Disney Animation. Like the 9 Old Men. They used real life references all the time. And it can help you understand how your characters should move too.
Honestly! I saw a joke about how Simba shows no emotion in the live action trailers. I haven't really watched any except the first trailer, though. Anyway! I love the idea of drawing your characters with expressions that they normally wouldn't do! I'll definitely try doing that help with a character who's a bit of a struggle to draw (dragon, cat, bug, guy, weird anatomy ha, but not too complicated yet). Thank you for yet another amazing video!
For half a second, I thought the old theater you showed at the beginning was one we have here locally! But ours (The American Shakespeare Center/Blackfriars Playhouse in Staunton, VA) was modeled after the Globe theater, so that makes lots of sense. It looks so much like it! They also put on excellent plays there. Ok, back to the video...
Alright finished. As far as remakes go, whether they be from cartoon to live action or just someone else's rendition of that character in general. I believe the character should still bare a good resemblance to their original design. Take Sonic for example, his original classic design, then his jump to 3D, even his Sonic Mania artwork were done well. You can still tell it's Sonic. He still retains a lot of features that make Sonic, Sonic. Then we have the Sonic from the movie......who looks a lot less like Sonic. Which is surprising since we already have 3D models of Sonic they could've worked with. His personality is still cocky, but doesn't share the cynical/bad attitude that Sonic is famous for.
I remember I was into Craig Ferguson's standup AND into anthro art, so I would watch his bits and pause at random moments to capture his body language and expressions in badly drawn anthro... somethings (I was going for a squirrel, but it sure doesn't read as one!). I'm still super proud of those sketches :)
7:21 I've definitely seen this take place in the video game side of things and it upsets me. I miss the colorful and expressive animal mascots. It's all humanistic nowadays.
Same - mascot platformers are my favourite genre, and anime-style and sprite-based RPGs are a huge part of my childhood. I feel like the move into hyper-realism is part of the medium confusing maturity with grittiness and authenticity with realism, in a similar way to comics in the 90s, and that this relegates cartoon-styled games to an age of 'it was the best we could do with the tech we had, but now we've grown up'. I'd love to see more variety in character design and colour palette in major releases, and developers exploring the options that open up as you move away from realism (the transition into 'I Just Can't Wait to be King' is a prime example).
The current project I'm working on is about some adult depressing themes: lots of cosmic horror, existential dread, pessimist nihilism, among other dark stuff... and characters dedicated to kill the personification of those concepts. I think it's really funny. At first I wanted an american comic book style just because I liked DC comic drawings... but eventually y learned that my dark comedy can only be achieved by exaggeration and being cartoony, if the characters won't take threats seriously, why should I?
4:50 It's more so that some cartoons do overuse off-model expressions. They are not bad by themselves but if they are overused the character model starts to feel like just another shape rather than being the default. Off-model expressions should be the exception and not the norm.
What is the merit of something being "on model". What is the goal, or why does that somehow make it superior to something expressive that achieves the same thing.
@@CharacterDesignForge Because staying on model creates a standard that is expected and that people can identify with. If something breaks model so frequently it feels like the norm people don't get a firm idea of what it is in their head. The audiance should have in their head that the character is a certain way so that when they look super depressed it indeed feels like that and a severe differ from their usual mood. Also the more you overuse exagererend expressions the less effective they are. Off-model expressions pop because they are off model and break the norm. That gives important moments the punch they need. But that only works if those moments are rare. If you have a character that often loses fights or barely edges out a win to have them make an overwhelming victory is a big deal. But if they breeze through every fight it's just routine.
@@MrMarinus18 So you identify with a character like Spongebob less if his expression is more lively? I'm kind of only hearing that it should be that way because that's what you want or need it to be, and not really any merit to why something MUST be on model. It's become one of those arbitrary things that people ding something on purely because it happens and not because it represents any material change in quality. It's become as much of a "critique" as the memetic "cal-arts style" criticism that is not only not a criticism, and doesn't measure up to any kind of real quality measurement, it's just a way to be superior to something or say that you don't personally like it.
@@CharacterDesignForge I didn't say that. I said early Spongebob didn't overuse it as much. If exaggerated expressions become the norm than those expressions are standard rather than exceptional. You want exagererend expressions to stand out after all. I just explained the reason. Didn't you understand it?
@@CharacterDesignForge Also exagerated expressions should match the emotion. You should use strong expressions for strong emotions. If you use exagerated expressions for weak emotions then the character comes across as mentally unbalanced rather than expressive.
I don't know if this is a bad thing, but lately I have been working with a couple designs with limited facial expressions, including one with an almost rigid face. In these cases, I assume the movement of the body would take over what the face would normally portray, or is this just bad experimentation?
Hm, what if I'm trying to intentionally trying to make a character unreadable? My boi is supposed to be harder to read but I find it hard to do subtle expressions
Okay question, people. WHO WAS THE ONE PERSON WHO DISLIKED THIS?! Did they work on the live action Lion King film? As it someone who thought 2:34 was a spoiler? Was it Thanos when he saw his picture? Or was it an "artist" who stinks at expressions and refuses to change, or a prick that thinks going off model is sinful? Or maybe it was a real human being who lacks expressions due to botox. Oh no I just used up all the ideas!!!
I FINALLY make a video that contains my live action Lion King thoughts and... then they release that Sonic trailer 😑 no rest for the weary as they say
It's so bad
So you are gonna talk about the horrible of the sonic design? what you could say that hasn't been said yet?
Its getting chamged, thank god!
It became good, though! One of few good things in 2020, imho :P
The most egregious aspect of the Lion King remake is that real baby lions are SUPER expressive. They just made Simba’s face-rig stay rigid like a rock because it ‘felt more real’. It’s disappointing.
Heck, one of the reason the internet fell in love with cats (of all sizes) is how much emotion they have in their body language (if not their faces). Live Action Simba looks less like a CG lion and more like an animatronic puppet.
@@dotwarner17 That's an insult to animatronic puppets, LMAO. Even those can be more expressive. 😭
They even managed to recreate this range of expressions in the live action Mulan remake. Impressive.
I really struggle with wanting to keep expressions “pretty,” especially on characters meant to be beautiful. I think that kind of relates to the whole off-model thing, somewhat...I don’t want to go “off-model” for this pretty character, even if I know a scene will have more punch with an uglier expression.
* I clicked on your channel. Only saw one old video, though. *
I'm sure you'll get there. *nods* When you get good at it you can make the beautiful character look beautiful in a wide variety of expressions.
Also, a lot more people than you think that look at your work might really like seeing that pretty character go off model for once. ;) You might wanna take some risks and experiment and see what other people- AND YOU!- think.
Maybe you're always thinking the pretty character needs to be beautiful, as if 'beautiful' itself is an expression, or that beauty is the point of the character? If you make a character that's supposed to be like a doll, always reserved in the most beautiful expression, that could work great, and then with others... I really think the fact that you are aware that you have this issue means you'll fix it if you just keep improving and loosen up a bit. Loosening up will get you off model and find how far off model you need to go, and will lead to more powerful scenes, and continual improvement of art will help you keep them beautiful throughout.
Maybe the practice Brookes showed us he does when he goes out of his comfort zone will really help YOU a lot. :)
I think you should probably try finding cartoon characters AND people that you find to be beautiful and take a close look at what they look like in... um... more ugly expressions?
And lastly, maybe it would be good practice to draw more non-pretty characters?
Even attractive people in real life look "ugly" when they scrunch their face up in anger or when they cry.
Try looking at hiroyuki okiuras animated movies, he mastered the art of expression man, specially when his characters are crying
i have a similar problem too :’)
What a great break down of expression here. I’m not an artist but this even helps a writer like myself to think how I use expression in my stories. Describing body language in words emphasizes emotion to the reader without stating it straightforwardly. The break down of direct lines in the face and body helped me expand that utility belt of physical description to get an emotional point across. Thanks!
The Netflix interpretation of the Jungle Book " Mowgli Legend of the Jungle" does the live-action animal thing in a more expressive way then the new lion king. The animal's faces are more stylized. In a way that leans toward facial acting. I think it strikes a better balance for both camps.
That note about the animated remakes seems quite timely with the Sonic trailer that dropped today.
I am making a fanfic for Pokemon, (basically my gameplay PokePark 2), I have drawn three characters' concept arts already. The main characters will look different, with differently shaped spots and body parts, and different colored eyes, as well as different hair. They each will have names too, Snivy is known as Sabine, Pikachu is known as Ace, and the Minccino npc that wants to return something to a Trubbish is known as Selena. Ace and Selena have different typings too. Ace was the first one I drew, from the start i knew what i wanted, stubby tailed Pikachu. He would look tough, but of course crippled, because as most of us know Iron Tail is something Pikachu use alot in battle. His tail also has no brown on it. Ace also has a bit of spiky fluff on his forehead, showing he isn't crippled despite his tail. His eyes are blue, and his face is shy, but confident. And his top stripe is lighting shaped. The text describing him of course flat describes what want out of him, as much as this text does, his features apparently do too. Everyone i show him to says he screams personality from everything. I not sure if it's the right personality i want, but at least it's there. Ace is Electric and Phychic type, making him able to use a move of his own equal to a strong Iron Tail. Selena is Ace's crush, and she is pretty and fluffy, just as i want her to be. Her sideswept and purple eyes make me thing of someone who has a nice voice, and she has heart represent Ace's love for her. She is typed Fairy and Dark, showing she is different and more powerful than the rest of the npc Minccino. Sabine, well, kind of screams regal too much, but it kind of suits her because that what i thought of when i heard she was princess. Regal o the outside, secretly sassy in the inside. Idk i think i need some help on how protray Sabine, so could any PokePark2 players help? If you're not one, that's fine too, i need all help i can get. This is gonna be a big animation project for sure. (XD what have gotten myself into?)
Edit: What you said about the Lion King is good to know about. It'll help me for animationing in general and animating my Lion Guard fanfic. FYI the Lion Gaurd is about Simba's 2nd cub, who finds himself with being destined with Scar's old job, protecting the Pridelands. Kion, Simba's son and 2nd cub, asembles his friends, non-lions, to join his gaurd. But of course, he is supposed to get lions to join, thus the show bing called the Lion Gaurd. But in the end Kion and his non-lion friends prove that they can do things even if they aren't what they asked for. (Kion's friends are actually more they asked for, a skill that they naturally have is asked of each member, being feircest, fastest, bravest, and strongest, and keenest of sight, and him having a cheetah, a bird, a hippo, and a Honey bager (aka a creature that is not afraid of anything and even picks fights with lions despite being the size of a large housecat). Thanks to some weird magic, Scar returns, as well as Kion being cursed to become evil, so they set of to cure him. In the end Kion falls in love with another lion who is queen of another kingdom, and the other members fall in love with other animals too besides the hippo and bird.
I would be more forgiving of the "live action" Disney remakes if they didn't create them so much to be a shot-for-shot recreation of the original. As you pointed out, the 2D animation style goes for very different expressive techniques. They should have gone in more creative directions, better suited to a different medium. But then, I guess that would be too "risky", and their whole motivation is just to cash in on nostalgia...
I love how during this video your own facial expressions are also showing what you are talking about (Intentional or subconciously doing it... still coool)
The part at 8:33 with Gordon Ramsay killed me...
I'm currently working on the expression sheet on my character, so this Really helped! I really enjoy your content as a whole. Keep up the good work!
Thank you!
I didnt know you can use a real life reference for a cartoon character that doesnt even have the same body or anything! Its truly about capturing the essense and im thankful that i know now
Janbert Guerrero Check out behind the scenes of old school Disney Animation. Like the 9 Old Men. They used real life references all the time. And it can help you understand how your characters should move too.
Honestly! I saw a joke about how Simba shows no emotion in the live action trailers. I haven't really watched any except the first trailer, though.
Anyway! I love the idea of drawing your characters with expressions that they normally wouldn't do! I'll definitely try doing that help with a character who's a bit of a struggle to draw (dragon, cat, bug, guy, weird anatomy ha, but not too complicated yet). Thank you for yet another amazing video!
For half a second, I thought the old theater you showed at the beginning was one we have here locally! But ours (The American Shakespeare Center/Blackfriars Playhouse in Staunton, VA) was modeled after the Globe theater, so that makes lots of sense. It looks so much like it! They also put on excellent plays there.
Ok, back to the video...
Ah! The reference here is actually for a theater company in Australia, unfortunately- but it’s the same idea, recreating the globe!
I needed this so much! Thank you!
PLEASE do a Sonic the Hedgehog video after the movie releases. Haha.
Alright finished. As far as remakes go, whether they be from cartoon to live action or just someone else's rendition of that character in general. I believe the character should still bare a good resemblance to their original design. Take Sonic for example, his original classic design, then his jump to 3D, even his Sonic Mania artwork were done well. You can still tell it's Sonic. He still retains a lot of features that make Sonic, Sonic. Then we have the Sonic from the movie......who looks a lot less like Sonic. Which is surprising since we already have 3D models of Sonic they could've worked with. His personality is still cocky, but doesn't share the cynical/bad attitude that Sonic is famous for.
You had me at the Splatoon music
seriously though, this is really helpful! thank you!
I remember I was into Craig Ferguson's standup AND into anthro art, so I would watch his bits and pause at random moments to capture his body language and expressions in badly drawn anthro... somethings (I was going for a squirrel, but it sure doesn't read as one!). I'm still super proud of those sketches :)
Thankyou this video is very interesting and informative. I love how you explain everything in the perfect amount of details.
This was so helpful i love all ur vids! Also the backdrop is so cool and really nice to look at
Thank you so much!
*sees new video* OH THAT’S RIGHT! IT’S TUESDAY! *pounces on thumbnail* XD
what great videos, a tresure trove of info and easy on the eyes too.
Glad you like them!
Your background is fire
7:21 I've definitely seen this take place in the video game side of things and it upsets me. I miss the colorful and expressive animal mascots. It's all humanistic nowadays.
Same - mascot platformers are my favourite genre, and anime-style and sprite-based RPGs are a huge part of my childhood.
I feel like the move into hyper-realism is part of the medium confusing maturity with grittiness and authenticity with realism, in a similar way to comics in the 90s, and that this relegates cartoon-styled games to an age of 'it was the best we could do with the tech we had, but now we've grown up'. I'd love to see more variety in character design and colour palette in major releases, and developers exploring the options that open up as you move away from realism (the transition into 'I Just Can't Wait to be King' is a prime example).
that was helpful, especially that I struggle a lot with expressions
1:33 Finally, someone who realises that "technology" doesn't just refer to computers and smartphones.
A helpful video again
2:34 OmG tHaTs aN aVenGerS eNdgAmE SpOiLeR!!1!!!11!
The current project I'm working on is about some adult depressing themes: lots of cosmic horror, existential dread, pessimist nihilism, among other dark stuff... and characters dedicated to kill the personification of those concepts. I think it's really funny.
At first I wanted an american comic book style just because I liked DC comic drawings... but eventually y learned that my dark comedy can only be achieved by exaggeration and being cartoony, if the characters won't take threats seriously, why should I?
Me who draws people with no mouths: Your goals are beyond your understanding
4:50
It's more so that some cartoons do overuse off-model expressions. They are not bad by themselves but if they are overused the character model starts to feel like just another shape rather than being the default. Off-model expressions should be the exception and not the norm.
What is the merit of something being "on model". What is the goal, or why does that somehow make it superior to something expressive that achieves the same thing.
@@CharacterDesignForge Because staying on model creates a standard that is expected and that people can identify with. If something breaks model so frequently it feels like the norm people don't get a firm idea of what it is in their head. The audiance should have in their head that the character is a certain way so that when they look super depressed it indeed feels like that and a severe differ from their usual mood.
Also the more you overuse exagererend expressions the less effective they are. Off-model expressions pop because they are off model and break the norm. That gives important moments the punch they need. But that only works if those moments are rare.
If you have a character that often loses fights or barely edges out a win to have them make an overwhelming victory is a big deal. But if they breeze through every fight it's just routine.
@@MrMarinus18 So you identify with a character like Spongebob less if his expression is more lively? I'm kind of only hearing that it should be that way because that's what you want or need it to be, and not really any merit to why something MUST be on model. It's become one of those arbitrary things that people ding something on purely because it happens and not because it represents any material change in quality. It's become as much of a "critique" as the memetic "cal-arts style" criticism that is not only not a criticism, and doesn't measure up to any kind of real quality measurement, it's just a way to be superior to something or say that you don't personally like it.
@@CharacterDesignForge I didn't say that.
I said early Spongebob didn't overuse it as much. If exaggerated expressions become the norm than those expressions are standard rather than exceptional. You want exagererend expressions to stand out after all.
I just explained the reason. Didn't you understand it?
@@CharacterDesignForge Also exagerated expressions should match the emotion. You should use strong expressions for strong emotions. If you use exagerated expressions for weak emotions then the character comes across as mentally unbalanced rather than expressive.
I don't know if this is a bad thing, but lately I have been working with a couple designs with limited facial expressions, including one with an almost rigid face.
In these cases, I assume the movement of the body would take over what the face would normally portray, or is this just bad experimentation?
My main OC is sad and he knows he's sad...
But what about when he's happy...? **blurred movement** holy crap I gotta try that!
🤝
5:19
Hm, what if I'm trying to intentionally trying to make a character unreadable? My boi is supposed to be harder to read but I find it hard to do subtle expressions
do you have a deviant art?
Not that I've ever really used seriously. Never really got into the platform!
i see the complementaries blue and orange there
Okay question, people.
WHO WAS THE ONE PERSON WHO DISLIKED THIS?!
Did they work on the live action Lion King film? As it someone who thought 2:34 was a spoiler? Was it Thanos when he saw his picture? Or was it an "artist" who stinks at expressions and refuses to change, or a prick that thinks going off model is sinful? Or maybe it was a real human being who lacks expressions due to botox.
Oh no I just used up all the ideas!!!