Excellent video! I make my own lap steels and too few people realize that other VALID instruments, lap steels do need to be intonated. I get a little hairy when I hear a lap steels called a "piece of wood with a pickup". Well done :-) Pete
Hi Joe! Thank you for posting this guide to setting the intonation on the SX Lap Steel. Just what I needed! I was given your DVD (#1) and a SX Lap Steel guitar for my birthday (70) and your instruction is clear and easy to follow. Best of luck!
Several years ago I bought a swamp ash lap steel from SX on a closeout. It never seemed to play as well as the SX that I already had from a previous purchase. Your video prompted me to check the intonation closely, and it was off a fair amount, and I also discovered the strings are not properly leveled. I'm working on correcting both of these problems and can't wait to see how much better it plays. The swamp ash models have sustain practically forever.
Yes! Swamp ash is such a great wood for a lap steel! I had a mahagony lap steel of similar size, and it seemed like the swamp ash was twice the weight! Which I love for a lap steel, as I usually play without a stand... the extra weight keeps it stable on the ol' lap :)
2022 Response: take it from an expert in guitar and lap steel: intonation of a lap steel is pointless. The bar itself is the intonation mechanism. This is why most lap steels don’t have adjustable bridges even though they existed at the time. The reason why this video exists is because SX/Rondo Music makes a good an inexpensive lap steel out of commodity parts like an adjustable tunomatic bridge. To make a lap steel sound great, you want to tune a full open chord with with the root note at A=440hz and then tune by ear in thirds or fifths. Or, you can search for Jon Ely’s site where he suggests some tuning offsets to sweeten the sound of strummed chords. The point is to offset the tuning of each string where the sum of the offsets is zero for the most common chord grips.
I am a guitarist who has recently taken up slide playing and was surprised to learn that some experienced slide players share the believe that setting intonation on the instrument is not necessary since pitch is adjusted by ear. I value your presentation and still believe that it is a good idea to have an instrument that has proper intonation. It seems to me that chords, double stops and the use of the slide with open strings would be more accurate. I have enjoyed reading the different points of view and the discussions have raised questions that I think can be answered by looking into acoustics.
I have never experienced this problem with any steel I have ever played, pedal or lap. Guitars need to be intonated because of detuning that comes from pressing the string against the frets. Steels obviously don't have this problem. If you're having trouble with intonation, it's possible the entire bridge is not completely parallel to the nut.
this is my biggest frustration with my lap steel. its the cheapest one you can buy, and im ok with that, but the fatal flaw is it has an adjustable bridge, so inherently there is already issues because the bridge should be exact and fixed. so i HAVE to intonate my instrument because its fucked to begin with, and im a complete newbie so trying to fix something that shouldnt be a thing is frustrating
I do a rough intonation by measuring the scale distance, however this guitar has kind of a weird length, being listed as 22 2/4 instead of a more standard 22 1/2. Joe's DVD's and Ebook are excellent and a bargain, by the way. One other thing I've noticed on one of my two SX's is that the string height is a bit off, which will cause it to be more prone to string buzz, and require more pressure on the bar. The only real way to fix that seems to be to file the slots in the nut, which will require nut files and a little know how and patience.
Thanks James! I have a few of the SX lap steels, and there is definitelysome variance in them. The good thing is they are really solidly built, so there's not much to worry about hurting by trying adjustments. Definitely agree that filing the metal nut would be a job for a more experienced tech... I wonder if there are good replacements for the nut... have to look into that.
@@joedocmusicI don't know, possibly Georgeboards might have something that would work. I have a set of fret files and have done a bit of that kind of work, so I'm probably going to try filing mine very carefully and gradually.
Exactly the issue I’m having right now with an Epiphone Electar. However, the tailpiece is a simple one without a chance to adjust the string length. Might be possible to try different string gauges.But as this particular instrument has some other issues as well, I’m going to return it and rather buy one with an adjustable bridge. So I’ll be better prepared to experimenting with different tunings. And thanks for this really helpful video, even if it’s a few years old already!
Thank you so much!! the video was very helpful. I just bought the same lap steel you have and its definitely out of tune at the higher registers. Appreciate it.
this sounds like adjusting for equal temperament. rather than intonation to allow for string stretch, on fingered fretted instruments. so the term intonation is being used correctly, but an explanation of equal temperament intonation. would make the problem clearer. ie pythagorous, and equal temperament.
Hello. You cannot adjust the intonation to an instrument that does not have a fret, a bevel slope, and does not stretch while pressing on the wire, like a fretted guitar. I don't think steel guitars need a moving bridge. If they are manufactured correctly. It is the right one in physics. I recommend you to read the book "harmonograph" by Anthony Ashton. My English is a little bad because I'm middle eastern 🤦🏻♂️
The problem here is that he started with a clip-on tuner. That's not how you tune a lap steel. Steel guitars use a "sweetened" tuning. For C6th, tune the C and G strings a wee bit sharp, then tune the E and A strings a wee bit flat. No need for an adjustable bridge. Tune it right and the lap steel is properly intonated at every fret!
Thanks for the info! This is a great tip. Unfortunately your comment is colored by disdain for the "clip-on tuner". Yeah, a nerdy little device, but actually useful for many purposes. Naturally, the problem is NOT with the tuner being clip-on or such, it is in the way I tuned the instrument! Even with the little clip on, I can now tune the strings as you suggest - a wee bit sharp - and I will try this. As should all other players who read this comment. Thanks for the input, and let keep the comments clear and bias-free! best wishes, -joe
The problem with clip-on electronic tuners is that they only tune to equal temperament, which is not how a steel guitar should be tuned. A lap steel should be tuned to pure harmonies. If you're going to use an electronic tuner, you should use one that allows you adjust to cents sharp or flat. Major thirds should be tuned about 14 cents flat for perfect harmony. In other words, if you tune the C to +7 cents, the E should be -7 cents. You can't do that with a clip-on tuner. In practice, I've found that +5 cents for the C and G strings, and -5 cents for the E and A strings, sounds very good and is easier to dial in. Of course, the bridge must be a straight line and you have to hold the bar straight.
Well Joe, with your lapsteel, with a string adjustable bridge, you indeed have to intonate the lap steel guitar. However, the old lapsteels from rickenbacker and fender had no adjustable bridge, just a smal bar or ridge where the strings go over. I have a lapsteel with such a smal bar, but with two screws you can bring the thin stringside and/or the thicker string side of the bar a little bit back or to the front, so the bridge and nut are NOT parallel. In my experience i need to bring the thicker side of the strings a bit back to be in tune on the 12 th fretmarker. And why is that, i really don't know. Maybe that is worth looking into.
Yes, the fixed bridge versions seemed to be set and ready to go... perhaps string gauge has to do with varying intonation? (The finer points of string gauge & possible need for intonation adjustment are unclear to me!) In any case, I presume these SX Lap Steels are produced using hardware they already had for their guitars, hence the lower cost. I dig the pickups and the ash wood, though, so I'm willing to spend a half-hour to fiddle with intonation ;-) j
@@joedocmusic Yes Joe, that pickup in your guitar sounds very good. In fact, after i heard you play sleepwalk i have started with lapsteel, and wanted to buy a SX Lap Steel, but could not find a dealer here in Belgium, so i bought a Recorder King. Sounds not bad either, but your SX sounds bettern maybe because of the hardware after the lap steel.. I also bought your online lessons at that time.
@@germona Thanks for the support! There's a music store in Ireland called "Walton's" that deals in SX instruments, not sure if they have the lap steels, tho. Worth asking! cheers, j
GREAT video! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! love it when the old guys talk about "sweetened" tuning. QUOTE: "You have to put it out of tune to get it to play properly." Give me a freakin' break. Too stubborn and hidebound to understand that the lap steel is EXACTLY the same as a standard guitar having 6 strings, each requiring different lengths for them ALL to be in tune with each other. BTW ... you are "fretting" the instrument with the tone bar ... it is EXACTLY the same as the metal frets on a guitar. Next the old guys will be trying to tell you the "tone wood" isn't correct.
Just got century, epiphone. Put exl 148 strings on upon checking with tone bar close to pickup string #3 can't get a clear note.it sounds lousy. Bridge is not adjustable, L shaped.itsounds bar is not touching #3 fully?
thanks for the video Joe. That's the best explanation regarding string intonation I've ever seen. You explained it much better than the repairman I used to work with at the music store. Gibson used to have a reverse tail piece if I recall correctly. You loaded the strings backwards and flipped them over the tail piece which acted as a bridge. How much difference does string gauge matter in that instance. I'm thinking of building a lap steel because mine 1940s Lelani is wearing out.
+TheNitsua59 Thanks - glad to hear it is appreciated! String gauge is important for the tuning you are going to use - there are a lot of possibilities for Lap steel... GHS makes a good C6 set. best, joe
Swami lap steels don’t normally come with adjustable bridge.....they just do not need them. This video has artificially made the bridge out of tune and then bringing it correct by bringing the bridge back in line. The whole concept of this video is wrong for lap steel.
Nice vid, Joe. I’m an advanced guitarist, but lap steel newbie. Most of my guitars have tunable bridges, which I am fanatical about tuning. Not sure if I’m going to really take a shine to lap steels, so I am looking at the SX lap steel that has soap bar PU, ash body but a sunburst finish and non-adjustable bridge for over $250 less than your model. My question: anybody succeed in replacing the bridge with one from, say, Gibson? Would like to know bridge post spacing.
All this is fine...except if the nut is not slotted correctly. If the strings passing through the nut all start and stop in the same place, intonation can be easily corrected. If the strings don't all start at the same point through the nut, you will not correct the intonation at the bridge. Not all lap steels have adjustable bridges.
Hi, thanks for this video. I have a 50's Oahu valco lapsteel that has a fixed bridge. I just bought it and it has flatwounds on it. The intonation is way out. Could it be the flatwounds? If not, how do I adjust the intonation on a steel that doesn't have tune-o-matic bridge? Thanks
Hi Jon, Is the bridge adjustable or movable in any way - can it be set at a slant, for example? It could be the strings... it may be the gauges are an odd set - thicker strings will need to be adjusted differently than thin ones, so if the intonation is way off, you may want to try a different string set.
www.joedocmusic.com Thanks for the response. No it's not, it's the classic string through valco pickup that is all one piece, like ry cooder used to use in his strats. I'm new to lapsteel, I'm a guitarist. What's the standard string gauge for these instruments?
***** That always depends on the tuning you are using, but for C6, I like the set from GHS - the best price I found is here: reverb.com/item/6618-ghs-electric-lap-steel-strings-c6-tuning-15-36
Hi Bill, This video is meant for the modern production lap steels that are built with an adjustable bridge. They seem to be using the readily available guitar parts, so it happens that they are often not adjusted correctly when shipped. Cheers, joe
great info you put out I have a Goldtone 8 string and anxious to take the cover plate off and see what is under there. What do people tune the 7 & 8 large string to if we use C6 tuning?.....Thanks
Hi Gordo. I just noticed your tuning question. A nice 8 string C6 tuning is A C E G A C E G. So you add a low A and a high G. This gives you a low A string for your minor chords. It also gives you 2 full sets of major or minor triads. With the 2 CEG sets you can play Dobro licks.
Im a beginning lap steel player and my lap steel is clearly not intonated. My concern is when I put the slide down am I truly above the 12th position marker or not? Is it like playing slide on the guitar to where you hold the slide above the marked “frets” (humor me there) or is it in the spaces?
I'm thinking of learning to play Lap steel and notice that a lot of basic models don't have adjustable intonation. I wouldn't dream of buying an electric guitar like that although I suppose acoustics aren't adjustable (But they are 'intonated by the luthier). Would you advise avoiding lap steels with a simple fixed bridge. Would appreciate some expert advice.
Hi George, Intonation is always important, but honestly you have more leeway on a lap steel, since you can correct by ear. Naturally, if one string is way off, you'll never be able to get a consonant chord going on, but I don't think that would be a problem if the luthier planned it the right way with a fixed bridge. If it's a "cheap" model, I'd suggest taking it for a spin first! cheers, joe
The best lap steels do not have adjustable bridges. It's simply not necessary if you tune the instrument properly. The only lap steels with adjustable bridges are made in factories where they also make guitars. It's a cost-cutting measure. They don't want to make a proper lap steel bridge when they have thousands of cheap electric guitar bridges available. Check out clinesmithinstruments.com/cast-aluminum or georgeboards.com or asherguitars.com/pages/ben-harper-signature-6 ... These are lap steels that professional players use. No adjustable bridges.
I agree. The reason the cheaper manufacturers are using adjustable bridges is that they pick it out of the same supply they’re making their fretted instruments out of. Start with the saddles even and adjust if you notice that your bar is having to move one direction or the other over the imaginary frets to be in tune. It’s that simple. Steel guitars don’t need staggered intonation. Period.
Boy! A lot of people seem upset by this video. Me, I leaned from it. There is another fellow on TH-cam, Kountry Cuz, who MAKES lap steel guitars, and he has a whole video on this subject. His method is different than this one, but they both lead to the same result.
nick louda Thanks man, glad you dig. The bridge came stock on the SX lap steel, and is basically a Gibson-style tailpiece/bridge - the saddles adjust the same as on a LP. cheers, joe
can anyone please explain to me why the saddles are always staggered and not simply in a straight line? i understand that string gauge makes a difference, but why isn't there a consistent gradient/line across the saddles?
The reason is the strings get stretched when pressed, and so notes go slightly sharp. Strings have different gauges and tensions though, that's why they need to be adjusted individually.
Because the bigger the interior of the string (minus wrap on low strings) the more the string has to be pressed to “fret” the note on a regular guitar. Therefore the note goes sharp (just like when you bend a note) but this time the bend is going down into the fretboard. I don’t believe that a lap steel needs to be individually intonated. If there is differences in string diameter I believe it’s minimal. Remember small intonation problems can be user error when It comes to steel. Pedal steels aren’t “intonated” at individual strings only for bends. And pitch doesn’t go by 440 rules in that case.
Are you trying to tell us that all of the steel guitar manufacturers from the 1920s to today's builders have been building them wrong?? We are talking Rickenbaker, Fender , Gibson, Paul Bigsby, Todd Clinesmith, George Pilburn and many others here.
Yes but some modern updated ones do and for that reason all the guy and video is doing is helping people out that are not 100 %musical trained and putting your instruments into a guitar Luther yes I've heard a few bad repairs on soldering done on guitars some Luther are only trained in wood instruments and the ones they either play or work on lol
The presenter shows exactly WHY you don’t need a staggered string length on a steel. When you do a harmonic (at any fret) it’s at the same place independent of fret for instance a 12 fret harmonic is EXACTLY halfway between the bridge and the nut. THIS IS RELATIVELY WHERE YOU WANT YOUR 12th fret to be represented. In other words if you put the bar there perfectly you’d have a perfectly tuned note you don’t want that point (harmonic) to be staggered (in a different place for each string) you should want it to be the same for all strings. The small amount of bend caused by the bar doesn’t change across the 6 individual strings unlike the unequal pressure we inadvertently put on a barre chord with fretted instruments. I contend that the tone bar wasn’t completely straight on this demo. In summary you want all your strings to be the same length and have their 1/2 length point 1/3 point 1/4 point to occur at the same parallel. The benefit of having an adjustable bridge is that you can make string length longer or shorter to accommodate when it seems you’re having to over adjust to bar positions as they relate to the fretboard. Even if there were some minute staggering needed for steel guitar (there isn’t) it would be impossible to do since you don’t know if you’re even at the same point of tuning with the bar. The shorter the string length gets the laser you can rely on your eyeball.
And your comment proves again why it's (unfortunately) necessary to be able to adjust a bridge should you buy a lap steel that has an adjustable bridge. The vintage Lap steels are lovely, and need no adjustment, but are of limited quantity and it's easier to get one of modern production. Follow instructions as needed if your modern aquition is in need of intonation! Much love x j
This is wrong. Intonation of a lap steel is done by tuning it harmonically, not by adjusting the bridge. A steel guitar should NOT have an adjustable bridge. None of the best lap steels have adjustable bridges.
The problem is, there are some on the market that DO have an adjustable bridge. In fact, they are - despite this design fault - fine instruments! So what are people to do that have one and it's not intonated? Well, this video seems to help them. I'm not after a pissing contest here - I certainly respect that some people believe "Lap Steels Should Not Be Made This Way" - please contact the manufacturer, not me. The info in this video is valid for those to whom it pertains. Some members of your forum are here spouting rudeness and IMHO this has no place in music or instrument discussions. Please feel free to provide a link to your video on tuning harmonically, and I'll approve it for posting here in this thread! Best regards, joe
I don't do videos, Joe, so I'll describe the method in text. First, measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret. DOUBLE IT. That's your scale length - the correct distance from nut to bridge. Set ALL of your adjustable saddles to be that far from the nut. Now, get a C note from somewhere. Tune your 6th string up to it. Then turn the tuner just a little bit more, so that it almost sounds sharp of your reference note. If you're using a clip-on tuner, tune that C note one notch sharp. Put the tuner away now. For the 5th string E, there's a harmonic point about 1/4" below the 4th fret. Touch that point and pick your 6th string. It's a high note. With practice you can hear it. Tune the E string's 5th fret harmonic to that 4th fret harmonic on your 6th string. Tune the 4th string G's 12th fret harmonic to the 6th string's 7th fret harmonic. Tune the 3rd string A's 7th fret harmonic to the 5th string's 5th fret harmonic. Tune the 2nd string C's 12th fret harmonic to the 6th string's 5th fret harmonic. Tune the 1st string E's 12th fret harmonic to the 3rd string's 7th fret harmonic. You can't tune a standard guitar with harmonics because you finger different frets. With a steel guitar, the bar is sounding all of the notes from the same fret. All you have to do is get the strings in tune. As long as they all have exactly the same scale length, they will be in perfect harmony wherever you place the bar. Just keep the bar straight! Happy steelin'.
There's a shortcut I use when I have to use an electronic tuner (noisy environment). Again, the bridge has to be straight so that all strings have the same scale length. Tune the C and G strings one notch sharp on the tuner. Tune the A and E strings one notch flat. Depending on the tuner, you might have to go 2 notches. Try it in a quiet room first so that you know what works with your tuner. I've been playing lap and pedal steel professionally for a very long time. This "sweetened" approach to intonation works on stage and in the studio. It's the sound that people expect to hear from a steel guitar.
Utter rubbish. The reason that cheap guitar has an adjustable bridge is because the builder is ignorant. Real steel guitarists use several tunings and when they retune, they compensate at the tuner on the head of the guitar. None of the famous steel guitars, like Rickenbacher, Fender or Gibson, have compensating bridges.
"cheap" is a problem how? The parts available are of a much wider variety than those used by the "famous" builders of many years ago. The parts that this company (SX) used for this lap steel reflect a modern variety of string gauges, and the choice of an adjustable bridge is wise, in my opinion. You can use this lap steel for a very wide range of tunings, and compensate easily with a very simple set of tools. With all due respect, I don't see why "ignorance" would come into the picture of criticism when the tuning you want to use can be set up to work properly. With best regards, joe
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Excellent video! I make my own lap steels and too few people realize that other VALID instruments, lap steels do need to be intonated. I get a little hairy when I hear a lap steels called a "piece of wood with a pickup".
Well done :-)
Pete
This just explained the issue I've been having. I thought I was just playing it wrong haha!!
Hi Joe! Thank you for posting this guide to setting the intonation on the SX Lap Steel. Just what I needed!
I was given your DVD (#1) and a SX Lap Steel guitar for my birthday (70) and your instruction is clear and easy to follow. Best of luck!
Several years ago I bought a swamp ash lap steel from SX on a closeout. It never seemed to play as well as the SX that I already had from a previous purchase. Your video prompted me to check the intonation closely, and it was off a fair amount, and I also discovered the strings are not properly leveled. I'm working on correcting both of these problems and can't wait to see how much better it plays. The swamp ash models have sustain practically forever.
Yes! Swamp ash is such a great wood for a lap steel! I had a mahagony lap steel of similar size, and it seemed like the swamp ash was twice the weight! Which I love for a lap steel, as I usually play without a stand... the extra weight keeps it stable on the ol' lap :)
@@joedocmusic ... and has exactly ZERO impact on tone. No acoustic chamber in a Lap Steel OR solid body electric guitar.
2022 Response: take it from an expert in guitar and lap steel: intonation of a lap steel is pointless. The bar itself is the intonation mechanism. This is why most lap steels don’t have adjustable bridges even though they existed at the time. The reason why this video exists is because SX/Rondo Music makes a good an inexpensive lap steel out of commodity parts like an adjustable tunomatic bridge.
To make a lap steel sound great, you want to tune a full open chord with with the root note at A=440hz and then tune by ear in thirds or fifths. Or, you can search for Jon Ely’s site where he suggests some tuning offsets to sweeten the sound of strummed chords. The point is to offset the tuning of each string where the sum of the offsets is zero for the most common chord grips.
I am a guitarist who has recently taken up slide playing and was surprised to learn that some experienced slide players share the believe that setting intonation on the instrument is not necessary since pitch is adjusted by ear. I value your presentation and still believe that it is a good idea to have an instrument that has proper intonation. It seems to me that chords, double stops and the use of the slide with open strings would be more accurate. I have enjoyed reading the different points of view and the discussions have raised questions that I think can be answered by looking into acoustics.
Couldn't agree more. Why would you want to have to make such adjustments when it can be made to intonate correctly?
I have never experienced this problem with any steel I have ever played, pedal or lap. Guitars need to be intonated because of detuning that comes from pressing the string against the frets. Steels obviously don't have this problem. If you're having trouble with intonation, it's possible the entire bridge is not completely parallel to the nut.
this is my biggest frustration with my lap steel. its the cheapest one you can buy, and im ok with that, but the fatal flaw is it has an adjustable bridge, so inherently there is already issues because the bridge should be exact and fixed. so i HAVE to intonate my instrument because its fucked to begin with, and im a complete newbie so trying to fix something that shouldnt be a thing is frustrating
I do a rough intonation by measuring the scale distance, however this guitar has kind of a weird length, being listed as 22 2/4 instead of a more standard 22 1/2. Joe's DVD's and Ebook are excellent and a bargain, by the way. One other thing I've noticed on one of my two SX's is that the string height is a bit off, which will cause it to be more prone to string buzz, and require more pressure on the bar. The only real way to fix that seems to be to file the slots in the nut, which will require nut files and a little know how and patience.
Thanks James! I have a few of the SX lap steels, and there is definitelysome variance in them. The good thing is they are really solidly built, so there's not much to worry about hurting by trying adjustments. Definitely agree that filing the metal nut would be a job for a more experienced tech... I wonder if there are good replacements for the nut... have to look into that.
@@joedocmusicI don't know, possibly Georgeboards might have something that would work. I have a set of fret files and have done a bit of that kind of work, so I'm probably going to try filing mine very carefully and gradually.
Exactly the issue I’m having right now with an Epiphone Electar. However, the tailpiece is a simple one without a chance to adjust the string length. Might be possible to try different string gauges.But as this particular instrument has some other issues as well, I’m going to return it and rather buy one with an adjustable bridge. So I’ll be better prepared to experimenting with different tunings.
And thanks for this really helpful video, even if it’s a few years old already!
Thank you so much!! the video was very helpful. I just bought the same lap steel you have and its definitely out of tune at the higher registers. Appreciate it.
this sounds like adjusting for equal temperament. rather than intonation to allow for string stretch, on fingered fretted instruments. so the term intonation is being used correctly, but an explanation of equal temperament intonation. would make the problem clearer. ie pythagorous, and equal temperament.
Excellent demo and explanation!
That's exactly what I wanted to know. Great job. Thanks a lot.
Hello. You cannot adjust the intonation to an instrument that does not have a fret, a bevel slope, and does not stretch while pressing on the wire, like a fretted guitar. I don't think steel guitars need a moving bridge. If they are manufactured correctly. It is the right one in physics. I recommend you to read the book "harmonograph" by Anthony Ashton. My English is a little bad because I'm middle eastern 🤦🏻♂️
The problem here is that he started with a clip-on tuner. That's not how you tune a lap steel. Steel guitars use a "sweetened" tuning. For C6th, tune the C and G strings a wee bit sharp, then tune the E and A strings a wee bit flat. No need for an adjustable bridge. Tune it right and the lap steel is properly intonated at every fret!
Thanks for the info! This is a great tip. Unfortunately your comment is colored by disdain for the "clip-on tuner". Yeah, a nerdy little device, but actually useful for many purposes. Naturally, the problem is NOT with the tuner being clip-on or such, it is in the way I tuned the instrument! Even with the little clip on, I can now tune the strings as you suggest - a wee bit sharp - and I will try this. As should all other players who read this comment. Thanks for the input, and let keep the comments clear and bias-free! best wishes, -joe
The problem with clip-on electronic tuners is that they only tune to equal temperament, which is not how a steel guitar should be tuned. A lap steel should be tuned to pure harmonies. If you're going to use an electronic tuner, you should use one that allows you adjust to cents sharp or flat. Major thirds should be tuned about 14 cents flat for perfect harmony. In other words, if you tune the C to +7 cents, the E should be -7 cents. You can't do that with a clip-on tuner.
In practice, I've found that +5 cents for the C and G strings, and -5 cents for the E and A strings, sounds very good and is easier to dial in. Of course, the bridge must be a straight line and you have to hold the bar straight.
Oh really. Get a grip he's only doing it as easy as he can for the video then post yours and let's see how it's professionaly done lol
@@boblee4162 Peterson Strobe tuner works great on lap steels. You can get a more accurate percentage above or below pitch.
@@joedocmusic Ho Joe im new in lap Steel. Can i tune It with a regular guitar clipon tuner?
Thank you, very useful guide.
I’m wondering what your left hand is doing; specifically, how do you ensure the slide is exactly at the 12 fret?
Well Joe, with your lapsteel, with a string adjustable bridge, you indeed have to intonate the lap steel guitar. However, the old lapsteels from rickenbacker and fender had no adjustable bridge, just a smal bar or ridge where the strings go over. I have a lapsteel with such a smal bar, but with two screws you can bring the thin stringside and/or the thicker string side of the bar a little bit back or to the front, so the bridge and nut are NOT parallel. In my experience i need to bring the thicker side of the strings a bit back to be in tune on the 12 th fretmarker. And why is that, i really don't know. Maybe that is worth looking into.
Yes, the fixed bridge versions seemed to be set and ready to go... perhaps string gauge has to do with varying intonation? (The finer points of string gauge & possible need for intonation adjustment are unclear to me!) In any case, I presume these SX Lap Steels are produced using hardware they already had for their guitars, hence the lower cost. I dig the pickups and the ash wood, though, so I'm willing to spend a half-hour to fiddle with intonation ;-) j
@@joedocmusic Yes Joe, that pickup in your guitar sounds very good. In fact, after i heard you play sleepwalk i have started with lapsteel, and wanted to buy a SX Lap Steel, but could not find a dealer here in Belgium, so i bought a Recorder King. Sounds not bad either, but your SX sounds bettern maybe because of the hardware after the lap steel.. I also bought your online lessons at that time.
@@germona Thanks for the support! There's a music store in Ireland called "Walton's" that deals in SX instruments, not sure if they have the lap steels, tho. Worth asking! cheers, j
GREAT video! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! love it when the old guys talk about "sweetened" tuning. QUOTE: "You have to put it out of tune to get it to play properly." Give me a freakin' break. Too stubborn and hidebound to understand that the lap steel is EXACTLY the same as a standard guitar having 6 strings, each requiring different lengths for them ALL to be in tune with each other. BTW ... you are "fretting" the instrument with the tone bar ... it is EXACTLY the same as the metal frets on a guitar. Next the old guys will be trying to tell you the "tone wood" isn't correct.
Just got century, epiphone. Put exl 148 strings on upon checking with tone bar close to pickup string #3 can't get a clear note.it sounds lousy. Bridge is not adjustable, L shaped.itsounds bar is not touching #3 fully?
Good video.
And this is the Way it's Done Good Job
Hello..
KountryCuz1... Nice one for you sir.. Where can i see this too by..?
My wife just bought me a steel Guitar...I m hoping I can learn to play it ,,I love the sounds
Excellent video mate
thanks for the video Joe. That's the best explanation regarding string intonation I've ever seen. You explained it much better than the repairman I used to work with at the music store. Gibson used to have a reverse tail piece if I recall correctly. You loaded the strings backwards and flipped them over the tail piece which acted as a bridge. How much difference does string gauge matter in that instance. I'm thinking of building a lap steel because mine 1940s Lelani is wearing out.
+TheNitsua59 Thanks - glad to hear it is appreciated! String gauge is important for the tuning you are going to use - there are a lot of possibilities for Lap steel... GHS makes a good C6 set. best, joe
You are Right On Well Done !!!!!!
Wish I watched this before buying a lap steel without an adjustable bridge. Live and learn!
Swami lap steels don’t normally come with adjustable bridge.....they just do not need them. This video has artificially made the bridge out of tune and then bringing it correct by bringing the bridge back in line. The whole concept of this video is wrong for lap steel.
@@mzinns Thanks. I just bought some angle brass I was going to use to make a bridge in my lap steel project, and this video made me panic.
So if you do not change string weights. when you tune to different tunings you will have to re intonate something?
thank you for your video excellent advice.
Nice vid, Joe.
I’m an advanced guitarist, but lap steel newbie.
Most of my guitars have tunable bridges, which I am fanatical about tuning.
Not sure if I’m going to really take a shine to lap steels, so I am looking at the SX lap steel that has soap bar PU, ash body but a sunburst finish and non-adjustable bridge for over $250 less than your model.
My question: anybody succeed in replacing the bridge with one from, say, Gibson? Would like to know bridge post spacing.
Is this for different sets of strings. Thank you!
Well explained.....
All this is fine...except if the nut is not slotted correctly. If the strings passing through the nut all start and stop in the same place, intonation can be easily corrected. If the strings don't all start at the same point through the nut, you will not correct the intonation at the bridge. Not all lap steels have adjustable bridges.
Hi
Hi, thanks for this video. I have a 50's Oahu valco lapsteel that has a fixed bridge. I just bought it and it has flatwounds on it. The intonation is way out. Could it be the flatwounds? If not, how do I adjust the intonation on a steel that doesn't have tune-o-matic bridge? Thanks
Hi Jon, Is the bridge adjustable or movable in any way - can it be set at a slant, for example? It could be the strings... it may be the gauges are an odd set - thicker strings will need to be adjusted differently than thin ones, so if the intonation is way off, you may want to try a different string set.
www.joedocmusic.com Thanks for the response. No it's not, it's the classic string through valco pickup that is all one piece, like ry cooder used to use in his strats. I'm new to lapsteel, I'm a guitarist. What's the standard string gauge for these instruments?
*****
That always depends on the tuning you are using, but for C6, I like the set from GHS - the best price I found is here: reverb.com/item/6618-ghs-electric-lap-steel-strings-c6-tuning-15-36
Can you recommend a good tune o magic bridge. My new lap steel has a fixed saddle and bridge.
How do you intonate a lap steel if it has a fixed bridge with no screws, just a bar?
Hi Bill, This video is meant for the modern production lap steels that are built with an adjustable bridge. They seem to be using the readily available guitar parts, so it happens that they are often not adjusted correctly when shipped. Cheers, joe
great info you put out I have a Goldtone 8 string and anxious to take the cover plate off and see what is under there. What do people tune the 7 & 8 large string to if we use C6 tuning?.....Thanks
Hi Gordo. I just noticed your tuning question. A nice 8 string C6 tuning is A C E G A C E G. So you add a low A and a high G. This gives you a low A string for your minor chords. It also gives you 2 full sets of major or minor triads. With the 2 CEG sets you can play Dobro licks.
Im a beginning lap steel player and my lap steel is clearly not intonated. My concern is when I put the slide down am I truly above the 12th position marker or not? Is it like playing slide on the guitar to where you hold the slide above the marked “frets” (humor me there) or is it in the spaces?
Right above the position marker is the place!
I'm thinking of learning to play Lap steel and notice that a lot of basic models don't have adjustable intonation. I wouldn't dream of buying an electric guitar like that although I suppose acoustics aren't adjustable (But they are 'intonated by the luthier). Would you advise avoiding lap steels with a simple fixed bridge. Would appreciate some expert advice.
Hi George,
Intonation is always important, but honestly you have more leeway on a lap steel, since you can correct by ear. Naturally, if one string is way off, you'll never be able to get a consonant chord going on, but I don't think that would be a problem if the luthier planned it the right way with a fixed bridge. If it's a "cheap" model, I'd suggest taking it for a spin first! cheers, joe
Many thanks. George
The best lap steels do not have adjustable bridges. It's simply not necessary if you tune the instrument properly. The only lap steels with adjustable bridges are made in factories where they also make guitars. It's a cost-cutting measure. They don't want to make a proper lap steel bridge when they have thousands of cheap electric guitar bridges available. Check out clinesmithinstruments.com/cast-aluminum or georgeboards.com or asherguitars.com/pages/ben-harper-signature-6 ... These are lap steels that professional players use. No adjustable bridges.
I agree. The reason the cheaper manufacturers are using adjustable bridges is that they pick it out of the same supply they’re making their fretted instruments out of. Start with the saddles even and adjust if you notice that your bar is having to move one direction or the other over the imaginary frets to be in tune. It’s that simple. Steel guitars don’t need staggered intonation. Period.
To clarify. If you adjust move ALL the saddles not just one. Always make them even on a steel.
Boy! A lot of people seem upset by this video. Me, I leaned from it. There is another fellow on TH-cam, Kountry Cuz, who MAKES lap steel guitars, and he has a whole video on this subject. His method is different than this one, but they both lead to the same result.
Yeah he so funny!
Hey buddy great video. Hey, what kind of bridge is that?
nick louda Thanks man, glad you dig. The bridge came stock on the SX lap steel, and is basically a Gibson-style tailpiece/bridge - the saddles adjust the same as on a LP. cheers, joe
The voice sounds like Christopher Walken just gave me a lap steel intonation lesson.
On closer look. It seems that he “corrected” the intonation from staggered to straight. So the bar wasn’t crooked it was the bridge lol.
can anyone please explain to me why the saddles are always staggered and not simply in a straight line? i understand that string gauge makes a difference, but why isn't there a consistent gradient/line across the saddles?
The reason is the strings get stretched when pressed, and so notes go slightly sharp. Strings have different gauges and tensions though, that's why they need to be adjusted individually.
Because the bigger the interior of the string (minus wrap on low strings) the more the string has to be pressed to “fret” the note on a regular guitar. Therefore the note goes sharp (just like when you bend a note) but this time the bend is going down into the fretboard. I don’t believe that a lap steel needs to be individually intonated. If there is differences in string diameter I believe it’s minimal. Remember small intonation problems can be user error when It comes to steel. Pedal steels aren’t “intonated” at individual strings only for bends. And pitch doesn’t go by 440 rules in that case.
Basically the answer is it’s the interior of the string that makes the difference.
Are you trying to tell us that all of the steel guitar manufacturers from the 1920s to today's builders have been building them wrong?? We are talking Rickenbaker, Fender , Gibson, Paul Bigsby, Todd Clinesmith, George Pilburn and many others here.
Could you point out where I said that?
The vast majority of lap steel players do not use adjustable bridges.
Yes but some modern updated ones do and for that reason all the guy and video is doing is helping people out that are not 100 %musical trained and putting your instruments into a guitar Luther yes I've heard a few bad repairs on soldering done on guitars some Luther are only trained in wood instruments and the ones they either play or work on lol
Why so much venom on this vid? It’s a fucking good vid!
Dirty Harry but incorrect.
The presenter shows exactly WHY you don’t need a staggered string length on a steel. When you do a harmonic (at any fret) it’s at the same place independent of fret for instance a 12 fret harmonic is EXACTLY halfway between the bridge and the nut. THIS IS RELATIVELY WHERE YOU WANT YOUR 12th fret to be represented. In other words if you put the bar there perfectly you’d have a perfectly tuned note you don’t want that point (harmonic) to be staggered (in a different place for each string) you should want it to be the same for all strings. The small amount of bend caused by the bar doesn’t change across the 6 individual strings unlike the unequal pressure we inadvertently put on a barre chord with fretted instruments. I contend that the tone bar wasn’t completely straight on this demo. In summary you want all your strings to be the same length and have their 1/2 length point 1/3 point 1/4 point to occur at the same parallel. The benefit of having an adjustable bridge is that you can make string length longer or shorter to accommodate when it seems you’re having to over adjust to bar positions as they relate to the fretboard. Even if there were some minute staggering needed for steel guitar (there isn’t) it would be impossible to do since you don’t know if you’re even at the same point of tuning with the bar. The shorter the string length gets the laser you can rely on your eyeball.
And your comment proves again why it's (unfortunately) necessary to be able to adjust a bridge should you buy a lap steel that has an adjustable bridge. The vintage Lap steels are lovely, and need no adjustment, but are of limited quantity and it's easier to get one of modern production. Follow instructions as needed if your modern aquition is in need of intonation! Much love x j
JoeDocMusic but you only need to arrange them in a straight line not by using the 12th fret and a tuner.
This is wrong. Intonation of a lap steel is done by tuning it harmonically, not by adjusting the bridge. A steel guitar should NOT have an adjustable bridge. None of the best lap steels have adjustable bridges.
The problem is, there are some on the market that DO have an adjustable bridge. In fact, they are - despite this design fault - fine instruments! So what are people to do that have one and it's not intonated? Well, this video seems to help them. I'm not after a pissing contest here - I certainly respect that some people believe "Lap Steels Should Not Be Made This Way" - please contact the manufacturer, not me. The info in this video is valid for those to whom it pertains. Some members of your forum are here spouting rudeness and IMHO this has no place in music or instrument discussions. Please feel free to provide a link to your video on tuning harmonically, and I'll approve it for posting here in this thread! Best regards, joe
I don't do videos, Joe, so I'll describe the method in text.
First, measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret. DOUBLE IT. That's your scale length - the correct distance from nut to bridge. Set ALL of your adjustable saddles to be that far from the nut.
Now, get a C note from somewhere. Tune your 6th string up to it. Then turn the tuner just a little bit more, so that it almost sounds sharp of your reference note. If you're using a clip-on tuner, tune that C note one notch sharp. Put the tuner away now.
For the 5th string E, there's a harmonic point about 1/4" below the 4th fret. Touch that point and pick your 6th string. It's a high note. With practice you can hear it. Tune the E string's 5th fret harmonic to that 4th fret harmonic on your 6th string.
Tune the 4th string G's 12th fret harmonic to the 6th string's 7th fret harmonic.
Tune the 3rd string A's 7th fret harmonic to the 5th string's 5th fret harmonic.
Tune the 2nd string C's 12th fret harmonic to the 6th string's 5th fret harmonic.
Tune the 1st string E's 12th fret harmonic to the 3rd string's 7th fret harmonic.
You can't tune a standard guitar with harmonics because you finger different frets. With a steel guitar, the bar is sounding all of the notes from the same fret. All you have to do is get the strings in tune. As long as they all have exactly the same scale length, they will be in perfect harmony wherever you place the bar. Just keep the bar straight!
Happy steelin'.
There's a shortcut I use when I have to use an electronic tuner (noisy environment). Again, the bridge has to be straight so that all strings have the same scale length.
Tune the C and G strings one notch sharp on the tuner. Tune the A and E strings one notch flat. Depending on the tuner, you might have to go 2 notches. Try it in a quiet room first so that you know what works with your tuner.
I've been playing lap and pedal steel professionally for a very long time. This "sweetened" approach to intonation works on stage and in the studio. It's the sound that people expect to hear from a steel guitar.
As concise as it can be! Thank you - I know that all the people who DO need to intonate a lap steel will appreciate your input! Best wishes, - joe
The Steel Guitar Forum Thank you! Yes.
Utter rubbish. The reason that cheap guitar has an adjustable bridge is because the builder is ignorant. Real steel guitarists use several tunings and when they retune, they compensate at the tuner on the head of the guitar. None of the famous steel guitars, like Rickenbacher, Fender or Gibson, have compensating bridges.
"cheap" is a problem how? The parts available are of a much wider variety than those used by the "famous" builders of many years ago. The parts that this company (SX) used for this lap steel reflect a modern variety of string gauges, and the choice of an adjustable bridge is wise, in my opinion. You can use this lap steel for a very wide range of tunings, and compensate easily with a very simple set of tools. With all due respect, I don't see why "ignorance" would come into the picture of criticism when the tuning you want to use can be set up to work properly. With best regards, joe
It means you have a piece of shit for a steel buy quality not Chinese junk