Whats worse is that Fextralife claims that their sponsors know about the embedds, but I wonder if the sponsors know that when you watch the site from a phone, the embedding is still there but it gets hidden, so not only the user is completely unaware that there is a hidden embedding on the site, but also that Fextralife still counts those users as legit viewers, I'm sure those sponsors would be interested in knowing how many people that visits the wiki does so through their phones hence not only completely unaware that they're a viewer but more importantly, a viewer that guaranteed is not watching the ads nor aware that there is a streaming embedding.
The fextralife wiki can be jank but it's the only robust wiki for certain games. The embeds are easily the worst thing about it. Even on the pages that are inaccurate, the presence of user comments meant that anyone could drop their own remarks and corrections so that you'd almost never be truly lost for information. Shame the guy is a dick though.
I suspect the reason it's the only resource is because it's SEO'd so we'll and therefore naturally collects the community; if the community had collected on a better place it would probably just be better for everyone.
Fextralife is living off people's desire to correct wrong or missing information. That on it's own would be a grey area because they would just be keeping the site that people can find information at. But the fact is that any information that users put up on the wiki only helps Fextralife. They'll have a better reputation for providing information that would otherwise be hard to find (often without any effort on their part) and because people visit their sites for that information they gain revenue from ads displayed on their site and the embeds boosting their stream, profiting off of other people's work.
Your point about ethics vs morality vs legality is salient. The goal is not to get them thrown in jail - though if they are defrauding advertisers, that may happen on its own - the goal is to establish that they are willing to break the social contract to get what they want. They're trying to salvage their own PR, and we need to make it clear that we all know what's going on here. We don't have to tolerate shitty behaviors from shitty groups just because it happens to be legal, or even because it's not against TOS. Sometimes it's important just to call a spade a spade and act accordingly.
i think its youtube, my username here never had some fn number behind it, but eversince they added these ridiculous @'s before the names, the numbers came along with it
Then one of the people streaming on Fextralife ended the stream once asmon was talking about them, and they fake flipped them off to avoid tos(like a coward) by using their Ring finger like if it was a middle finger. sooo pathetic. also its hilarious how empty their large offline chat is, if you check its like over 23k viewers/offlinestreamchatters and no one typing where the stream bot that gives peoples advertisements for their own !commands is their most active chatter LOL
I've only seen embeds done right by one person, Iwilldominate's live view site where he commentates over LCS games on his stream and allows viewers to sync up on the official LCS broadcast
I see some website design issue but apart from that, shouldn't Twitch be the one that does all the logic of checking when tabulating the views? You literally just need to create an element and provide the src attribute to embed it in your website isn't it? I don't know why it's suddenly "aha! I knew you were exploiting the system" when Twitch provides the embedded content??
I mean, the problem they're have with embedding is... Getting extra ad revenue? Twitch is okay with it, advertisers also knows about it. I guess by extending that argument, is it only ethical if people who fully support your channel give you monetary contributions? What about all the ads that i blatently ignore on youtube videos, streams etc, should someone report that to advertisers and tell them they should get their money back? BTW i have no clue on what fextralife has actually done, but in a vacuum these arguments just sound insane to me. Edit, also if we consider webpage ad space, is it all of a sudden better if they replace the embedded twitch stream with another ad? They probably make the same amount of money regardless.
it sounds ridiculous to me as well. Yes you can inspect the element and found that the element is slightly smaller than the "recommended" width and height, but it does not prove anything lol. Twitch's provides the content of the embedded element, they can find ways to determine if the player is visible to user if they care. Asmongold made it feel like "oh, see! this is what I'm talking about. They are definitely exploiting the system" and that really does not sit well with me.
Content creators are just upset they didn't think of it first. They can't do it now, simply because they picked their hill to die on, and they can't go back on their "principles." It'd be one thing if the embeds couldn't be tampered with, but people can just _click the x_ or just pause/don't run the embedded stream if it bothers them so much. Objectively, Fextralife provides helpful info on things most people couldn't give two shits to make write ups on. That's all any normal person cares about. This is just clout, theatrics, and projections of jealousy from creators who want to play the "virtuous" but are just as unethical in their monetization practices. Lol
@@Section.9 while people like asmon and react streams steal content from smaller streamers. Which is far more unethical and offer very little content for fair use.
@Asheriancommand yep, which is why I think this whole fiasco is just a "flavor of the week" type of thing. They'll find something else to conjure up and create drama around, because you know, "content." Definitely a pot meet kettle situation though. They're all hypocrites. Lol
I always go back and forth on this, with Fextra, you can see it is bad. it is barely in a corner of each page and no call to action to check them out there. But I know of a like a charity i watch every year, they embed on their site for the charity but it points to hey watch the fundraiser here, and then points to how to make accounts for prizes/giveaways and it has a hey click here to watch/chat on twitch there is a call to action. There are people that use embedding legitimately, and things like Fextra is going to ruin something for others by gaming the system.
The key distinction in this post is the fact that the embed generates no ads or revenue. Yes, the numbers are inflated for the stream itself and that will bring in more curious twitch watchers who see the large numbers of viewers, but its not like theyre earning money from people who don't know theyre watching. I feel that morally the embedding isnt wrong, they are just using the system to benefit themselves. Disabling it would hurt more twitch streamers than it would help, but twitch should 100% make a distinction in viewer numbers between active people watching in chat and embeded "viewers".
@minuette1752 True, but I equate this kinda practice morally to something like undercutting market value in sales. It's annoying for anyone that gets undercut, but given the opportunity any salesman that could make decent profit from it would happily do it. It's slightly disingenuous, but realistically they've just found a way to boost their viewer number using a tool that twitch provides combined with their own resources. The problem isn't Fextralife playing the system, but that the system allows Fextralife to play it. Thus, imo, the solution is for twitch to separate viewer numbers so embedding like this doesn't offer such a strong advantage... But that likely wont happen because any advantage gained from this would only lead to more income for twitch.
The argument that this inflates views and therefore "hurts" small streamers is also bs. Pyromancer is an FFXIV streamer now so I'm sure a lot of people here have probably have seen a plethora of variety streamers playing the game recently. These streamers when they play will pull in thousands of not tens of thousands of viewers and are by far the biggest in the category, does this not hurt smaller streamers too who can't pull the same numbers? For the record I don't think it is, but I also don't see embedded boosting viewerships as a negative thing either. If you are a boring streamer, people will go elsewhere anyways.
the whole video revolves around the fact that it's twitch's fault. Neverless, just because it is allowed, doesn't make fextralife exempt from thinking about the moral aspects of their doing.@@cascade1788
the point is that fextralife does not deserve being on top. He doesn't have 50k viewers because his content is good but because the number is inflated with wiki-users who don't give a shit about the stream, which is what makes him being on top worse than "honest" streamers being there who are there because people actually like to watch them. Don't know what's so hard to understand about that, lol@@cynicalmanatee
Their wiki is rather lacking. But their videos are pretty good. Other than that idk what's true or not here. Gotta tell you Pyro, love how you've seem to have improved alot. You seem happy :)
Ah so they are a using a tool that is actively advocated for by twitch to help increase clickthrough and discovery... so not view botting and just using the tool as its meant for. Idk seems noncontroversey?
the problem is that the tool itself is flawed. I mean, it's explained in the video, but by going to the top of a twitch-game site (undeservingly, because 80% of the viewers are not actually watching, which is where the botting comparison comes from) they are pushing down someone else, who would have been visible otherwise (because there is a limited number of streams showing). This hurts this specific person - probably not by much, but for those people, every viewer matters. So being pushed out from the frontpage will keep them from being as visible as before. Twitch obviously wouldn't care (more viewers and money), which is why the tool in it's current state exists in the first place. The existence itself is btw no indication of morality, which could be called a naturalistic fallacy
Pyro's just excited to see Twitch drama he didn't create
I think creators need to be careful that they’re not potentially defrauding their sponsors with things like embedded links to show “growth”
I especially mean I don’t want to see an Adpocalypse 2 that hurts every creator.
Whats worse is that Fextralife claims that their sponsors know about the embedds, but I wonder if the sponsors know that when you watch the site from a phone, the embedding is still there but it gets hidden, so not only the user is completely unaware that there is a hidden embedding on the site, but also that Fextralife still counts those users as legit viewers, I'm sure those sponsors would be interested in knowing how many people that visits the wiki does so through their phones hence not only completely unaware that they're a viewer but more importantly, a viewer that guaranteed is not watching the ads nor aware that there is a streaming embedding.
The fextralife wiki can be jank but it's the only robust wiki for certain games. The embeds are easily the worst thing about it. Even on the pages that are inaccurate, the presence of user comments meant that anyone could drop their own remarks and corrections so that you'd almost never be truly lost for information. Shame the guy is a dick though.
I suspect the reason it's the only resource is because it's SEO'd so we'll and therefore naturally collects the community; if the community had collected on a better place it would probably just be better for everyone.
Fextralife is living off people's desire to correct wrong or missing information. That on it's own would be a grey area because they would just be keeping the site that people can find information at. But the fact is that any information that users put up on the wiki only helps Fextralife. They'll have a better reputation for providing information that would otherwise be hard to find (often without any effort on their part) and because people visit their sites for that information they gain revenue from ads displayed on their site and the embeds boosting their stream, profiting off of other people's work.
Your point about ethics vs morality vs legality is salient. The goal is not to get them thrown in jail - though if they are defrauding advertisers, that may happen on its own - the goal is to establish that they are willing to break the social contract to get what they want. They're trying to salvage their own PR, and we need to make it clear that we all know what's going on here. We don't have to tolerate shitty behaviors from shitty groups just because it happens to be legal, or even because it's not against TOS. Sometimes it's important just to call a spade a spade and act accordingly.
Generally speaking:
Ethics are personal/professional codes of conduct
Morals are an individual’s rules/principles influenced by their society
If embedding is allowed why isent actual viewbotting allowed, when it is functionally the same thing.
i think its youtube, my username here never had some fn number behind it, but eversince they added these ridiculous @'s before the names, the numbers came along with it
Then one of the people streaming on Fextralife ended the stream once asmon was talking about them, and they fake flipped them off to avoid tos(like a coward) by using their Ring finger like if it was a middle finger.
sooo pathetic.
also its hilarious how empty their large offline chat is, if you check its like over 23k viewers/offlinestreamchatters
and no one typing
where the stream bot that gives peoples advertisements for their own !commands is their most active chatter LOL
I've only seen embeds done right by one person, Iwilldominate's live view site where he commentates over LCS games on his stream and allows viewers to sync up on the official LCS broadcast
Now I understand why a video I was watching on a random BG3 Wizard build had a ridiculous amount of dislikes despite the video being good information
I see some website design issue but apart from that, shouldn't Twitch be the one that does all the logic of checking when tabulating the views?
You literally just need to create an element and provide the src attribute to embed it in your website isn't it?
I don't know why it's suddenly "aha! I knew you were exploiting the system" when Twitch provides the embedded content??
I mean, the problem they're have with embedding is... Getting extra ad revenue? Twitch is okay with it, advertisers also knows about it.
I guess by extending that argument, is it only ethical if people who fully support your channel give you monetary contributions? What about all the ads that i blatently ignore on youtube videos, streams etc, should someone report that to advertisers and tell them they should get their money back?
BTW i have no clue on what fextralife has actually done, but in a vacuum these arguments just sound insane to me.
Edit, also if we consider webpage ad space, is it all of a sudden better if they replace the embedded twitch stream with another ad? They probably make the same amount of money regardless.
it sounds ridiculous to me as well. Yes you can inspect the element and found that the element is slightly smaller than the "recommended" width and height, but it does not prove anything lol. Twitch's provides the content of the embedded element, they can find ways to determine if the player is visible to user if they care.
Asmongold made it feel like "oh, see! this is what I'm talking about. They are definitely exploiting the system" and that really does not sit well with me.
Content creators are just upset they didn't think of it first. They can't do it now, simply because they picked their hill to die on, and they can't go back on their "principles."
It'd be one thing if the embeds couldn't be tampered with, but people can just _click the x_ or just pause/don't run the embedded stream if it bothers them so much.
Objectively, Fextralife provides helpful info on things most people couldn't give two shits to make write ups on. That's all any normal person cares about.
This is just clout, theatrics, and projections of jealousy from creators who want to play the "virtuous" but are just as unethical in their monetization practices. Lol
@@Section.9 while people like asmon and react streams steal content from smaller streamers. Which is far more unethical and offer very little content for fair use.
@Asheriancommand yep, which is why I think this whole fiasco is just a "flavor of the week" type of thing. They'll find something else to conjure up and create drama around, because you know, "content."
Definitely a pot meet kettle situation though. They're all hypocrites. Lol
@@Asheriancommandnot sure why TH-cam untags long comments now, which is lame - but see above.
They are about to scapegoat someone and put the whole blame on one of them in the company to pull the heat off.
I always go back and forth on this, with Fextra, you can see it is bad. it is barely in a corner of each page and no call to action to check them out there. But I know of a like a charity i watch every year, they embed on their site for the charity but it points to hey watch the fundraiser here, and then points to how to make accounts for prizes/giveaways and it has a hey click here to watch/chat on twitch there is a call to action. There are people that use embedding legitimately, and things like Fextra is going to ruin something for others by gaming the system.
Also it is only embedded on the home page of that site, like the donation page and other info pages of the site do not have the stream on them.
"Parasite on the platform", like you Asmongold, with your react slop?
Wait.. it's pronounced 'eff-ek-stra-life'??
I've been thinking it was 'fek-stra-life' this entire time. wtf does the 'F' mean!?
I say Fextra too. Idk why he says F Extra
You're saying it right lol
The key distinction in this post is the fact that the embed generates no ads or revenue. Yes, the numbers are inflated for the stream itself and that will bring in more curious twitch watchers who see the large numbers of viewers, but its not like theyre earning money from people who don't know theyre watching.
I feel that morally the embedding isnt wrong, they are just using the system to benefit themselves. Disabling it would hurt more twitch streamers than it would help, but twitch should 100% make a distinction in viewer numbers between active people watching in chat and embeded "viewers".
The thing is they are upping their views for sponsors
@minuette1752 True, but I equate this kinda practice morally to something like undercutting market value in sales. It's annoying for anyone that gets undercut, but given the opportunity any salesman that could make decent profit from it would happily do it.
It's slightly disingenuous, but realistically they've just found a way to boost their viewer number using a tool that twitch provides combined with their own resources.
The problem isn't Fextralife playing the system, but that the system allows Fextralife to play it. Thus, imo, the solution is for twitch to separate viewer numbers so embedding like this doesn't offer such a strong advantage... But that likely wont happen because any advantage gained from this would only lead to more income for twitch.
The argument that this inflates views and therefore "hurts" small streamers is also bs. Pyromancer is an FFXIV streamer now so I'm sure a lot of people here have probably have seen a plethora of variety streamers playing the game recently.
These streamers when they play will pull in thousands of not tens of thousands of viewers and are by far the biggest in the category, does this not hurt smaller streamers too who can't pull the same numbers?
For the record I don't think it is, but I also don't see embedded boosting viewerships as a negative thing either. If you are a boring streamer, people will go elsewhere anyways.
the whole video revolves around the fact that it's twitch's fault. Neverless, just because it is allowed, doesn't make fextralife exempt from thinking about the moral aspects of their doing.@@cascade1788
the point is that fextralife does not deserve being on top. He doesn't have 50k viewers because his content is good but because the number is inflated with wiki-users who don't give a shit about the stream, which is what makes him being on top worse than "honest" streamers being there who are there because people actually like to watch them. Don't know what's so hard to understand about that, lol@@cynicalmanatee
Their wiki is rather lacking. But their videos are pretty good. Other than that idk what's true or not here.
Gotta tell you Pyro, love how you've seem to have improved alot. You seem happy :)
Ah so they are a using a tool that is actively advocated for by twitch to help increase clickthrough and discovery... so not view botting and just using the tool as its meant for.
Idk seems noncontroversey?
It's all clout. They're all just pissed they didn't think of doing it first.
it is when people didnt even click or see the discovery lol
the problem is that the tool itself is flawed.
I mean, it's explained in the video, but by going to the top of a twitch-game site (undeservingly, because 80% of the viewers are not actually watching, which is where the botting comparison comes from) they are pushing down someone else, who would have been visible otherwise (because there is a limited number of streams showing). This hurts this specific person - probably not by much, but for those people, every viewer matters. So being pushed out from the frontpage will keep them from being as visible as before.
Twitch obviously wouldn't care (more viewers and money), which is why the tool in it's current state exists in the first place. The existence itself is btw no indication of morality, which could be called a naturalistic fallacy
I didnt even know about them till Asmon exposed them lmao.
This was so great lol