Many Ways to Start a Turbine Engine
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 เม.ย. 2024
- Let's try to describe all the different ways used to start a gas turbine engine. We're including fighter jets, airliners, helicopters and industrial ground running engines.
I will include video examples of as many that I can, and here are some links to other vids:
The Blackbird start cart: www.thesr71blackbird.com/Airc...
RR Avons in a Canberra: cartridge fed turbine starter:
• Cartridge Engine Start
The F-22 startup, featuring a cartridge start of a small starter engine. The video has been edited to cut out the windup of the main engine. I don't know why they did that.
• This Is What F-22 Engi...
My video on the air turbine starter with a radial inflow turbine:
• The Air Starter - Turb...
My video about air turbine starters with axial flow turbines
• Air Turbine Starter - ...
My video about the our start cart containing a Garrett GTC 85:
• the Huffer - Turbine E...
bonus: • Northrop YB-49 "Flying... - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
![อยู่ได้แล้ว - LIPTA feat. Mirrr [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-9-hpntNym4/mqdefault.jpg)
I remember going to the RAF Kinloss Air Display in 1954 and being very impressed by a Sabre breaking the sound barrier in a dive over the airfield. The announcer told us all to cover our ears.
2-Stroke piston engine in the nose cone of the central shaft on the Me-262! That one always fascinated me, the only pull start jet engine i know of 😂
Yes, the opposed 2-cylinder 2-stroke Riedel engine was connected to the engine shaft via a friction clutch.
That impingent air manifold was used on the US Navy and Marine Corps F-4 Phantoms with the J-79-GE-8 & 10. The air was directed on the 2nd stage turbine wheel. The air start cart supplied high volume air at 75 psi. The cart itself has a small gas turbine engine and could also supply electrical power for the aircraft. The cart could also supply 45 psi for air turbine starters on other aircraft.
Thanks! I only knew of its use on ground running engines.
Thank You for the interesting information.
You can add one more to the electric start category: In single shaft turbo generators, it is possible to use the generator as a motor to start the turbine. That's how the monster gas turbines used in base load power plants are started. They apply field to the generator, and with a frequency converter, spin up the generator to start the turbine.
I've designed some battery packs for starting small(er) turboshaft engines, but that 132V Avon start system consisting 11piece of 12V blocks just blew my mind 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I didn't catch it on video, but the switch was a monster, and made huge sparks.
Hi jay z I have a mk1 avon that i ground run You have seen my vid on youtube The government forced me to dispose of my start cartridges so ive been unzble to start it for 12 months I have just been able to start her again I mounted a 30 vdc generator on the front inplace of the cartridge starter i manualy engage the drive dog then via solenoids i feed 12 v the once generator once the eng is rotating i flick a switch and increase the voltage to 24 which gets the eng up to 450 rpm enough to switch on igniters and fuel flow Starts up fine no increase in egt from standard Very gentle start now Thanks for what ive learnt from your videos
Very creative!
I've always thought it would be interesting to have a motorcycle engine as a starter. Same clutch mechanism as the electric start, but maybe a wailing two-stroke with a moto throttle powering it.
I think you're just the guy to make it happen.
@@AgentJayZ ha ha ha Im more than satisfied with this setup thanks Even managed to get it under the original starter cover A museum in aus converted their avons to electric start with starters off avons from a comet 45 hp 120v dc motors And ive managed to do if wifh 24 v into a dirty old bendix generator How would i get pics or vids to you, if yr interested ?
email address on my channel page.
@@AgentJayZ hi JayZ Ive just put a youtube vid up about my starter conversion Any video i had was too large to email you directly Cheers john
Very nice work! We recently sold an old aviation Avon starter. It was 48VDC. The one we tested years ago was different, and rated at 132 VDC.
One thing I worry about is your stand. If you take that thing anywhere near its flight operating RPM, between 7 and 8 thousand rpm, it'll make several tons of thrust.
I'm sure you know that, and are careful !
That engine is a beauty.
As a tech in the CF I was fortunate to have a couple postings to units that serviced visiting aircraft so I got to experience pretty well every kind of start for turbine engines except for the last 2 in your video.
The good old Nene 10 on the T-bird has a sizeable DC starter to wind her up. Our ground power units (GPU) had a 'soft' start feature that included a feedback circuit from the aircraft start panel. This allowed the initial current to the starter to be moderated. Away from base without a soft start GPU the delivery of full current had the potential to snap the starter quill shaft which is designed to fail before any damage is done to the engine. Every T-33 carried a spare quill shaft in the tail fairing compartment of a tip tank which also holds the tip tank ground safety pins. Don't think a pilot ever changed one himself haha. You could also do a battery start as there were a couple large lead acid batteries in the nose compartment. 2 x 12 volts hooked up in series.
At one point you let slip that fighter aircraft don't have batteries (47-48 minute mark). I don't recall working on any fighter that didn't have a battery. Perhaps not for starting but for emergency power and ignition for re-light if you lose the engine. Even the CF-104 had room for 2 very small batteries. I remember they were among the first NiCad batteries in service on aircraft and were of a size that fit nicely into a BMW airhead motorbike of the 1980's. ;)
At Base Flight in Cold Lake i was on start crew for visiting CF-101 Voodoo & B57 Canberras. The Voodoo had a different, more high pressure start cart that was unique vs what we used on CF-5 or CF-104. It was a bit scary as I didn't like being around that kind of pressure for start-up. I think it was some kind of bayonet fitting to the aircraft. The Canberra starts were always exciting, bang, smoke, start. As start crew we were simply a fire guard, no other work required. I recall the crew telling us to stand on the opposite side of the nose to the engine being started in case the cartridge blew out of its cone on ignition.
The start cart for the CF-5 was smaller than the CSU (Combined Service Unit?) we had to start the CF-104. The CSU was a beast with many features besides providing air. I believe it had both AC & DC power & possibly even hydraulics. In Germany during tactical exercises the 104's were started inside HAS (Hardened Aircraft Shelters). These were fully self-contained with an air compressor, huge air storage tank & electrical power. Near the end of the 104 era in Europe the CSU's were being replaced by 2 separate units, one for air, one for power. That was a bit of a nightmare as you now had to tow 2 units around the line each one as large as the CSU used to be.... progress...
You *are* a teacher. I always learn a lot from your videos!
Thanks!
Great video again. Don't sell yourself short, you are a great teacher! However, unlike what you implied, there are very few large airliners, even today, using electric starter motors for the main engines. As far as I know, the 787 is still the only one. Although the 747-8 uses the same basic engine as the 787, it still uses bleed air for engine start, and engine bleed air for air conditioning and wing anti-ice (iirc the 787 uses bleed air only for engine-intake anti-ice, and nothing else). I'm not sure about the 777X, but I assume that since it uses large parts of the old 777, its systems are designed around a pneumatic system. Even the Airbus A350 uses air turbine starters.
We're going to try to run one of those cartridge starters on 500f water. I cried when I saw the turbine wheel in that JFS-100
Always such cool informative educational videos JZ.👌🇦🇺
That was great! You rock.
The dual AC motors on the 787 engines are insanely powerful, first time I saw how fast those engines spool up i was amazed! The torque they produce must be ridiculous!
Evidently if the APU is inop it takes 3 start carts to provide enough electricity to start one of those engines 😮
2x250kVA Sir 🤐🤐
kVA is same as one kilowat or am I wrong? If im right, 500kw of just electrical power alone is amazing, but is expected since 787 has less hydraulic and more electrical systems@@barjan82
Great presentation! I learned a lot. Thanks.
I have 3 small gas turbines from the 1960s which are started by a hand crank. Rover 1S60, BMW 6012 and Deutz T16 (T216). Turbine power approx. 60-100 HP. The Deutz has no electrical ignition and is ignited with burning newspaper.
always a cool subject...
Yey! more Jet engines PRON .
I recall you covering this topic some time-a while ago in a video chapter if not in the whole video.
Thank you for the revisit.
Wuddup G, i put the kid to bed with your videos. Its always her idea. thanks!
Good to see you and your show again.Wow some of those engine's must be cool to run and work on and thank you.
Thank you! enjoyable video.
Fun video! I used to work on A-4M's and TA-4F's and J's in the Marine Corps. I was qualified to run the engines for maintenance purposes, so still recall some details about them. The TA-4's used the conventional air start process for their J52-P-6 engine. The A-4M's started out the same way, but were upgraded to use a JFS to spin up the J52-P408 engine. The novel detail was that the JFS had a hydraulic accumulator that started it. Once the J52 started, the aircraft's hydraulic system re-pressurized the JFS's accumulator. If, however, the engine start wasn't successful, the ground crew (i.e. me) had to pump up the JFS accumulator. :-( The early Skyhawks were air start too, but had a detachable turbine that fit into the engine. I got a video of this at the Warbird Heritage Foundation.... th-cam.com/video/VmA255p2MHg/w-d-xo.html Anything to save a few pounds!
Thanks for the info. I never knew about that method. So the JFS must have a little hydraulic starter motor. You and iTz_JLAR both brought this to my attention today.
Cant wait to see this!
Thank's Jay
Another great video 👌 plenty of interesting info
Great video. While they don't use hydraulic motors to start the main engines directly, some combat aircraft like F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 use them to start the small gas turbine (JFS or APU). The hydraulic accumulators are recharged when main engines are operating, but if the pressure is too low, ground crew has to manually pump them before start. If you google "F-16 manual pump" you should get some photos of ground crew with a big lever stuck in the left wheel well of the aircraft.
So in a way these fighter jets are started with good old muscle power and a hand pump.... that charges the hydraulic accumulator, that powers the hydraulic motor, that starts the gas turbine, which cranks the engine through a gearbox (F-15, F-16), or air turbine starter (F/A-18).
Hey. My favorite Canadian!
I just got my copy of Gas Turbine Powerplants by Charles Otis based on your recommendation
You just became a bit more awesome!
Thanks.
Congratulations on your project. Gonna miss her?
I've been waiting 10 years to hear you mention something/anything about the SR-71/J-58!! Please mention it more! I'd love to hear your thoughts on anything related to the Blackbird.
Excellent video & explanation! You mentioned "handed" engines - I have read that a version of the CF-100 had "handed" Orenda engines ... does that mean the left and right engines were counter-rotating? Was this ever the case on any turbine powered aircraft?
Never. The cores were the same, but the arrangement of accessories on the outside of the engine may have been arranged in left and right handed orientation in order to simplify connections... for the fuel pumps for example.
@@AgentJayZThx!
My father told me that back in the ‘70’s he was one of just a few passengers on a flight out of Bangor, Maine. The 727 overnighted in Bangor on an extremely cold night. The pilots announced they were not able to get #2 started but, with the passengers’ concurrence, would take off on #1 and #3 and windmill start #2 in flight. The passengers agreed and the flight landed on time on all 3 engines. I’m guessing this would not “fly” today.
cold temps have no effect at all on turbine engine starting. Right down to -50F.
As explained here, there are no batteries to not work, the bearings are all roller, and the engine oil is liquid down to -70F.
I was on an MD 80 (same engines as the 727) in 2013, and they could not start one engine due to a stuck valve... The air valve to the starter as explained in this video. We waited an hour for a tech to come and bang on it with a wooden mallet. Old planes need extra love.
@@AgentJayZ Interesting. Two options for the stuck valve. Hit it with the calibrated hammer or windmill start in flight. Sort of like starting my old truck. Hit the starter with a hammer or roll start it. Cheers!!!
I don't believe that even back then, a passenger carrying airliner would be allowed to leave the gate with a nonfunctioning engine.
Absolutely no way.
this sounds like the story of an inoperative APU being misunderstood by a passenger.
Great video, answered a number of questions for me. One question, when starting a main engine with bleed air from an APU or the other main engine, does the bleed air spin a starter turbine connected to the external gearbox on the engine that is being started (so not direct impingement)?
British Airways Flight 009 might be an example of a 747 using the air start procedure but maybe they used the APU (they lost all four engines due to volcanic ash).
Also it would have been interesting for you to say that “no speculation” was allowed on why the SR-71 Pratt & Whitney J58 Engine takes so much additional horsepower to start, and then watch us speculate.
As far as I know, the airliner cross bleed ducting is for air turbine starters.
It would seem that direct impingement would be simpler, so maybe some airliners did use that.
@@AgentJayZ
Thank you, that is what I assumed and have no knowledge about direct impingement (but as you note, it seems more straightforward but probably in the real world, not so much).
Your shows are great!! Always wanted to know how jet engines work.. BTW,, what did the Avro jet fighter used for jet engine, before Defenbaker destroyed them a?
The only thing that can be described as a jet fighter made by Avro is the CF-100 Canuck. It used Orenda 11s, which are the same core as the 14, but with a different arrangement of external accessories.
Oh, you may be asking about that other plane. It was not a fighter, but an interceptor.
Not a trivial matter. In my business, the proper names for things is a critical thing.
I do have access to, and have made videos featuring, the Orenda 10, 11, 14, and Iroquois.
G'day Agent JayZed,
Well, I dunno if I'm the only one to notice - or if maybe I missed it (?) ; but one of THE most famous (infamous ?) of the early (Turbine-Exhaust) "Jet-Engined" Aircraft..., to employ your rather precise and exacting terminology (!) - used another, entirely different method of starting...
The Junkers Jumo and/or BMW Turbojets in the Me-262, the World's first Operational "Jet-Fighter"...; were started by a 2-Stroke Piston-Engine - itself started by a Hand-pulled Recoil Starter, with one 2-Stroke Motor in each Nacelle, mounted behind an Access Door to the Pull-Cord Handle in the very front of the
Domed Spinner of the front Wheel of Engine's Compressor Blades....
I always got a laugh out of the very idea of the much lauded
World's First JetFighter's
Engines being
Pull-Started..., like any common
Lawnmower, Chainsaw or Brushcutter (!).
And for your amusement, feel free to backtrack me to my Videos to see,
"Soft-Shank Twist-Drills ; New Adventures In Metallurgical Chinesium !"
I imagine it may well strike an empathic chord with you
And your worldview (?).
Such is life,
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
I think I did briefly mention that.
@@AgentJayZ
Ah, cool ; it was a long story and I admit to having watched in installments, and been dragged away by Kettle-boiling noises, etc - which was why my enquiry was intended to be tentative...
Thanks for the reply.
Have a good one,
Stay safe...
;-p
Ciao !
The RR Olympus has compressor bleed valves that unload the compressor The SR-71?
Pretty sure the early MIGs had a pull start
You provided links in the description! Is this a new thing?
I do it all the time, but most viewers don't read the description. They ask questions that are already answered.
Hey AgentJZ. I have an add on to your list.
The F-15 Eagle does not have a battery on board. It instead uses stored hydraulic pressure to spin up the JFS for engine start. If you like. Here is an F-15 engine start video where you can hear each stage from start to finish: th-cam.com/video/tNLz4HpsKQU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Zo4kNd4nzNGp9kTk
Thanks for the info. I never knew about that method. So the JFS must have a little hydraulic starter motor. You and SkyhawkSteve both brought this to my attention today.
Are the critical speed of shaft and temperature rise of components important in the startup of turbojet and GT such as steam turbine?
... such as a steam turbine? Nothing in your comment makes any sense to me.
@@AgentJayZ Sorry, I can rephrase my question. In the case of starting a steam turbine, the critical shaft speed, refers to a specific speed at which very high vibrations occur, must be avoided and the temperature rise of metallic components must not exceed 260 °C per hour to prevent cracking and eccentricity of the shaft. Is this valid for the startup of turbojets and GTs? THANKS
Not much. Components heat up very quickly during start. Cooling down slowly is more important. Each engine has different vibration behavior, so no blanket rules apply. Steam turbines have the same function as power turbines. I have several vids on that subject. See my channel page for the search feature.
💯💯🤗🤗
At 34:00 minutes into the video, when you show the turbine of the JFS-100, there are some tubes and a manifold visible to the left of the turbine. Is that an impingement starter? Looks to me like the thing when you explained impingement starting.
Nothing at 34:00, but at 35:14, you can see two handles, and a smaller diameter fuel manifold, connected to 5 fuel nozzles. As explained shortly after that, the JFS100 is started with a small electric motor driving the accessory gearbox, which is connected to the main rotor by the radial drive shaft, also shown.
@@AgentJayZ Thanks for the answer. I saw your explanation of the electric starter of the JFS100. I thought the JFS100 might have an impingement starter as an additional / alternative starter method. Sorry for not being clear on that.
Hmmm, We had a E-7 SFC, in our shop, that theory had it, could “suck start” a T-700…
I have no interest in the 'Many Ways to Start a Turbine Engine', I watched every minute of this video . . . . Oh, hmm; I guess I do.
Welcome to Jet City. And thanks!
The Jumo 004 has a built in two stroke starter engine, it can be pull started like a chainsaw.
Did I not metion that one?
@@AgentJayZ The Riedel 2-stroke starters were mounted directly on the engine, not a start cart.
they had electric start or a rope recoil start
I believe, doktor, that I did mention that. Did you watch the vid, or are you just piling on?
I rode my BMW today, and you have impinged .
Does that mean there's a Jet City treasure map?!?
I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes...
@@AgentJayZ You said you hid the cool things so they don't get scrapped
The BAC 111 uses a hydraulic starter. th-cam.com/video/SwRiTtOj92Y/w-d-xo.html
Toyota Corolla Motor.
The first one you show is not a DC electric motor or starter: It's rather a DC starter-generator
It's a starter generator. In starting, it acts as a 28VDC electric motor. When running it acts as a 28VDC generator. When it's a motor, it's a motor, eh?
A starter motor... now, where have I heard that term before... ...
How can there be anyone in the background when your videos don't have background music? : )
I turn the volume down so the lawyers can't hear it.
😂
Great video. Unfortunately, I had to quit watching halfway through with TH-cam cutting you off every few minutes and displaying 45 to 60+ second ads :(
I used to have control over that, but not any more. Apologies.
Your explanation of the avpin starter is a little off, i have some information i can send you if your interested
Always interested!
@@AgentJayZ drive.google.com/file/d/19zm_XHh1Kkvz_E9FLc9fvw6GzP_fartm/view?usp=sharing
Thanks!