Listening came first to the baby, a lot of listening. How do suggest a baby or anyone start speaking who has not heard the language? Input comes first. Unlike the baby adults can read. So, for adults, listening and reading come first, in my view.
Regarding your third point: "How much writing is beneficial for language acquisition?" That's exactly Krashen's point. It's the reading, reading and reading make the real difference in acquiring a language. Writing helps with organizing thoughts and better to express one. But it's not the pathway to acquire a language. Krashen agrees with you on writing as a necessary practice but not essential. Thank you for doing all of your talks. I especially enjoyed episode to advise Mark Z to improve his intonation in Chinese. Very practical! Thank you!
Steve, I have tried a lot of the advice that polyglots give on you tube and found that most of it is just hype to sell their books and cds so I am skeptical of polyglots. I have found you however to speak honestly from your experience. Thank you.
I make mistakes in Russian, but I am convinced that I would speak and understand less Russian if I had studied any other way. It is fine to make mistakes, not a problem. Eventually I will make fewer mistakes. By the way, who at the How to forum said that and when?
Having learned a few languages to a native level, I must say that yes, active input is absolutely essential to get to the last 20% or so. In that, I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, I do think I need to point something you said and add nuances. You say listening (comprehensive input) is in your opinion more important than reading, and I understand why one could say that. In the short term, it is really faster. But one cannot reach a really native level without some heavy reading. That being said, speaking is important, not only to improve pronunciation but also to organize one's thoughts. I also would like to share a technique that is in my opinion not only way too scarcely used but also drastically underestimated. I learn speeches by heart, mimicking every single detail of the original performance. After every single speech learned this way, my language skills really take a giant leap forward. But I have to confess that this isn't for everyone as it can require eh... how to put it.. quite a substantial amount of time...
I agree on the importance of reading. If I have time to dedicate to learning, I read. I listen while doing other tasks. The reading helps with vocabulary, and the listening helps my speaking, and of course oral comprehension.
***** AJ Hoge teaches this exact mimicking technique to attain native-like pronunciation, I'm glad to know it works so well, I'm not quite ready to do it yet, but I'll definitely do it in time.
Jagadish .A Hi. Let me give you a piece of advice which will help a lot if you are really passionate about English and want to get fluency. Never study gramma the traditional way. If you just want to speak and write correct English the readind gives you all you need to advance towards your goal. So readind is important but there are other things to know which are being in a peak emotional state ..being happy and the state of not being afraid of mistakes. The linguists as Steve Kaufman, A.J.Hoge and others are all pointing in the same direction saying that the normal/old methods don't suit the learners. Big grin, good luck!
From watching a lot of Krashen's talk here on youtube, I gathered that he also thinks that reading should not only be meaningful but interesting, he uses a synonym Compelling. He says that students should read stories that are not only interesting, but they should be compelling.
By the way, I do not learn grammar just by induction. I save words and phrases and tag them for case and other issues that I am trying to increase my awareness of. i also occasionally read through Teach Yourself Russian grammar and sometimes pick up some things that I have missed. But I find remembering the rules impossible. Meanwhile I have a large vocabulary and enjoy radio and audio books and literature in Russian. And I make mistakes. Mistakes are glorious!!
Firstly, I'm really enjoying listening to your ideas, & I agree with you. I happen to be a grammar junky, it just comes very easily to me. What took me a long to realise tho, was that learning grammar is of very, very limited use when it comes to learning to use a language, & I agree 100% that reading & listening are by far the most productive ways of aquiring a language. Your Swedish, by the way, is a testament to your method, I think. Not faultless but very clear.
@findmads Her name is Beniko Mason, you would have to google her name to find her work. I think that grammar is helpful if we treat it as something we refer to from to time to help us notice the language, but not with the goal of remembering all the rules nor as something to constrict our use of the language. I think that if we pay attention to our input and output, we gradually can notice our gaps and improve. Fossilization can be overcome with enough time and the right attitude.
It sounds very reasonable. Since I'm learning my first (additional) language and am also developing the method that works for me I can only agree that some small amount of writing is helpful to join the dots of the things that I've absorbed. Unfortunately the bulk of the time with Japanese is simply in learning to read, so the ability to gain from input is somewhat delayed. In the meantime I tend to listen a lot and study grammar - I can't pick it up from reading yet!
Post 3: Now I'm 25, and I've started on Japanese. The approach necessary was completely different from both German and Chinese. Immediately I had to learn the alphabets hiragana and katakana, as well as reading up a bit more about grammar than I would have needed to for other languages, since the grammar was completely different than anything I had ever encountered. In this case, learning grammar (without overdoing it) would make learning Japanese a bit easier. I really enjoy your videos!
I've just gotten B2 level at english just by reading and listening, I never spoke in English until the day of the test, so I really hope you're wrong so I can reach a C1 level without having to talk to anyone :)
I have been a language teacher for more than decades. I'm going to reply to your talk in few parts, otherwise, it might get too long. When you are comparing yourself, a super motivated polyglot, with general population, yes, you would be more interested in taking on difficult tasks. However, observing unmotivated learners in my classes, typically, it's these easy, or even below their instructional level books bring them on track slowly. Once they find something easy and interesting, there would be a hook. Expecting them to open a dictionary to try making sense out of an over-reaching content is like putting them on a path to fail. "Nothing motivates like success." We don't give our children to read Shakespeare. Lastly, I want to add that I have been enjoying listening to your talk. This is only a difference in opinion.
+haiyun lu I agree on the need for easier content and we are working on ways to make LingQ easier and to introduce more structured and easier material. I have found that the Q and A and type of content that Piotr uses for Polish is useful for learning the structures of the language.
+Verbatim Mitabrev And he's so "horrible" that people like Krashen himself say that Steve Kaufmans website is an excellent tool. (as he stated in an interview with Aaron Myers) I don't understand your aggressions towards Steve Kaufman. He doesn't claim to be a teacher, he doesn't claim to have a degree in this field or anything of that sort. He sees himself as what he is - a person that likes to learn languages and that wants to share the experiences he made over time. What he says is to a very high degree in line with Krashen and everyone is entitled to have an own opinion.
+haiyun lu I recommend you to take a look at it. I also checked out the website of your language school and I think it would be a useful complement due to the similarities in concept of your reading corner. Thank you very much for the free material on your website by the way!
Great video! Although my experience in language learning is much less vast than your own, I'd like to make an addendum: Different languages should be learnt in a different manner. For example: I was able to learn German from a novel at age 18. With no previous knowledge, I threw that novel open and looked up every single word I didn't know and wrote it down. After 7 novels and the occasional looking up of grammar on the internet, I was decently fluent in 1-2 months.
I agree that the nature of a text is more important than having input+1. I enjoy reading Polish literature and watching comedies, even when I misunderstand it or get a bit lost - I know I'm exposing myself to the language. You also mention that some amount of production is important too - yes! I actually find that reading/listening are much more effective ways to learn when combined with something productive, e.g. tell somebody in L2 about what I just read.
In regards to getting just the "right" amount of new vocabulary, didn't Kató Lomb acquire a lot of her languages through reading books? Since she reported having a rather small selection for some languages, she must've pushed the boundaries of comprehension quite a bit. While I agree that having not too many incomprehensible words is optimal, it seems to be possible to really teeter at the edge of comprehension. Right now, for my Spanish acquisition I'm reading "Harry Potter y la piedra filosofal", but I have this book by Juan Francisco Ferrández called "La Tierra Maldita", a historical novel quite a bit higher in difficulty than Rowling's book, and I'm really intrigued by it, despite having to guess a lot of the vocab.
There's Reading Writing Listening and Speaking. They are difficult in that order. And they use different parts of the brain. Many teachers leave you demoralized..and many make learners give up. Dont expect much tuition from a native speaker..but they will talk to you...Thats what I have learnt ..and I'm a muddy builder
Steve, I read a few pages of a Harry Potter book written in German every day. The words that I don’t know, I look up on google translate on my iphone as I am reading. In what way would LinkQ improve or speed up this process? I don’t understand what link does or how you use it. Of all your posts I have not found any that explain what LinkQ does and how to use it. It would be good for everyone if you would explain how you use linkQ when you are learning a new language. Thanks.
Post 2: This approach, however, would not have worked with Mandarin. Chinese characters are too complex and the amount of effort needed to learn Chinese from a novel would be so immense that mental exhaustion would occur long before language acquisition. The solution: When I was 22, I merely watched T.V. shows and chatted with friends online and via skype and learned like that. Listening was very important in Chinese, grammar learning was unnecessary.
By spoken language I meant oral language, language that we can hear from someone else, not written. Yes listening comes first, then speaking (to acquire the real pronunciation and accent) and then reading and then writing. Reading script without being able to pronounce it correctly generates big problems in the future :/
I can't disagree with Mr. Kaufman - your points are valid, but I still adore Krashen. I learnt (or better say "acquired") 2 foreign languages in natural environment while being in foreign countries - while in Sweden, I studied grammar intensively for a couple of months and then listened and read a lot... A LOT!!!! (like 6-8 hours a day) I received a lot of input along with grammar study in Sweden and I started speaking in my 5th month of study, nearly fluently at once (at the same time I was also very good in writing because of my grammar studies, I assume). Later on in life I ended up in a Spanish speaking country and there, I did not take any course, but started reading newspapers and listening a lot to formal Spanish.. I started speaking in about a year, but I was not very accurate and my writing skills were non-existent... and they are still not good to this day, even though I have been in close touch with Spanish for about 8 years now. I seriously need to take a course and study grammar in order to become completely literate. Spanish is my 4th foreign language and I kind of picked it up easily, but not with precision and I hate it. This is the point where I disagree with Krashen that we don't need grammar study - some basic grammar is absolutely necessary. Accurate (!) use of tenses can only be understood through a detailed formal instruction.
Well, if you are using formal work on grammar alongside your work with input, you're not really following Krashen's advice. He believes that grammar can only play a virtually insignificant secondary role. But when I read his ideas in detail, I feel that he seriously mischaracterises how grammar would be used by an intelligent adult learner. My personal approach blends input with very targeted grammar work on areas of weakness, and it works for me.
***** Because you're an idiot. Teachers should be there to help you figure out how to be autonomous. Anything else is spoon feeding and hand holding and therefore keeps the student at the level of a child.
In my experience those people that make a lot of progress by themselves are the ones that are most successfull in language acquisition. The ones that only learn what is taught in class fall behind. Empowering students to become independant language learners is invaluable.
@evelioto I doubt having knowledge of grammar has anything to do with the ability to speak a language at all. It may be a window into a language for linguists and theorist - but there is little evidence which supports grammar study functions in any way to enhance language learning.
Also, just because listening comes first for a baby, doesn't mean you have to learn exactly like a baby. As an adult you have many more tools at your disposal. (Like a native language for association) You should use them. The optimal order for an adult would be reading, listening, speaking, then writing. Reading a short introduction into Mandarin pronunciation would suffice as Mandarin pronunciation is relatively easy. (fewer sounds than most other languages, thus the necessity of the tones)
Regarding your second point: "Should students do output activity?" Krashen never says "No, there shouldn't be any output any activity." and all one needs is "input" and "input". This is a misunderstanding of Krashen. Krashen says, "Everyone acquires language at difference pace." What he really says is that the length and input amount varies from person to person. When someone is ready to output, go ahead. Let's don't expect everyone to do output activity all at the same time. Also, "input" starts from listening, not reading. Of course, there are going to be tons of and tons of listening first.
@ewcia2288 youtube : Stephen Krashen on Language Acquisition. I believe he says that speaking can be a source to comprehensible input, but only through conversation. In the beginning output is not the most important thing, reading and listing, watching is far more effective.
TPR does not really concern about reading or writing ergo it doesn't really concer about characters. TPR and the natural approach are right brained approaches and they are all about comprehensible input, spoken language that you can understand through visuals , kinetics and common sense. Yes there's actual a reason why reading and writing should be the last things, how can you read and write a language if you cannot speak it, when you were a baby what came first?
Hi steve. Could you post the link to the reseach by d´errico Mason ??or what was his or her name? Also what are your thoughts on Fossilization and interlanguage ? ....do you also believe that gramma-instruction causes us to develop " a monitor" for speaking ?, that we constantly are reviewing everything we say/have said and could gramma- instruction lead to fossilization ? how do you think we can avoid Fossilized errors ?
It could work with Mandarin, the only exeption is that before you do it, you need to learn the tones. After that you can follow the Natural Approach, BTW reading is not that essential to the Natural Approach at the beginning, is just TPR a little bit revised. Reading and writing should be the last things you need to learn. Obviously after you master pinyin first.
You cannot learn a language by writing and speaking it. Reading and listening teaches you the language and then you can use the language to speak and write. I wasted years trying to speak a language that I hadn’t first learned by reading and listening. Now the only thing that I do is read authentic material an hour a day and my progress is better than I expected. Every day, while I read, I find words whose meaning I know, that I never tried to memorize. Apparently, while reading, I am learning new words. Its likely because I look up the meaning of words and see them used in context many times. I wish I had tried reading authentic material years ago. I wasted a lot of time.
By the way, insulting people and character assassination doesn't count as a legit point of view. If you think Steve's opinion about Krashen's theory is wrong, then please do share, why you think it's wrong, why Krashen is better and support it with proof points.
I think the most important thing is REAL content. There's nothing more laughable than seeing some course being sold and it's completely unnatural and completely fake feeling. You'll see a French course that gives it stuff like this: Dialogue: Person 1: Bonjour, comment ça va? Person 2: Ça va bien, merci! Et vous? I live in France and NOBODY here talks like that. It's so unnatural and forced. Grammatically 'correct' 'book' language needs to stop being taught because it's pointless for the real world. You'll hear 'Ça va?' and the response will either be 'oui' or 'Ça va. Toi?' Even pronunciation is taught badly. Even on the news people will most likely pronounce 'il y a' more like ee-yah or just 'ya' yet you'll see every course ever try to make you pronounce it fully. Then there are annoying things like being taught you have to put ne + pas when in reality it's hardly used. It's just verb+pas. On is also used a lot more than nous yet books only teach you 'nous'. The point being, that REAL content is the best if you want to learn to communicate with actual people. If you want to learn to read literature then read literature.
***** What a silly comment. It presumes that the DELF are good things. They're not. They do nothing but grade your own hard work in the language. It would be cheaper to get yourself to a high level in the language and then simply submit written and video evidence of your language ability to an employer/university (which is all they are used for).
Ça va? :D Do you, by chance, know some concrete ways in which someone should learn French? I mean, I want to learn the aspects of language which you talked about. I need real content really bad. Could you check out FluentU and tell me if it's truly a real content which there aids you in learning? (note: I'm not advertising a product).
You're not missing anything. There are quite a few pious types who seem to think that languages are a noble intellectual calling, rather than something to have fun with and use as a means of communication. They seemed to be genuinely confused by the concept of learning a language just for fun, or as a window into a country's culture. Of all the people they could have targeted, Moses must surely be the least deserving of their snobbish ire. How can he not be an inspiration to us all?
When you said "this approach" I thought that you were talking about the Natural Approach invented by Krashen (which is the topic of this video) that was in itself derived from TPR, that's why when you said "this wouldn't work with Madarin" I was like... Yeah it could work. Everything that I said until now is in behalf of the theory not myself. But now I realize that you don't wanna talk about the actual theories he presented which I thought was the point of this video, now I see it isn't.
They may read just as well as the people who had reading and writing practice, but they won't write as well... So writing+reading still beats just reading.
Umm, no that approach does not work with Chinese unless you're a machine. The issue is not about the tones... but the complexity of Chinese characters themselves. It might work if you're a machine that never gets tired... but for a regular person using this method on Chinese... it's near impossible. Please note: my method means you have no pre-knowledge of the language. There is no reason reading and writing should be the last steps. Depends on your personality.
This video and it's title only show the weakness of Steve Kaufmann. i've been waching many kaufmann's videos and I agree totally about the importante of reading and listening, speaking e writing, but the title of this video and it's content show me only the weakness of caracter of Kaufmann. I only know Krashen by the videos made by Kaufmann. It's all.
No offense... but... who the hell was talking about TPR??? I was talking about subconscious saturation. I don't remember ever mentioning TPR. Nor did I ever mention right or left-brained approaches. If you are going to answer my posts, please say something meaningful and don't just throw out a string of words that have nothing to do with the conversation for argument's sake. If you want to start a new topic then post a new comment, don't answer mine. Lol...
First you say he doesn't speak the languages, then you say that he doesn't speak it well. I have no idea what your argument is but it's clear you're trying to belittle his efforts and opinion just because he disagrees with Krashen. This is a free world, everyone is free to have his own point of view. If you don't agree, don't watch it. There's no reason for you to insult someone just because he doesn't think as you do. Grow up.
I am an Italian speaker and I can tell his Italian is poor and stilted and this is proof 1) he overestimates his skills(title:How I learned Italian=he hasn't learned Italian) 2) His accent his not that good even in other languages ,,and 'quite well' isn't well enough for someone who pontificates on how to go about learning a foreign languag
I'd go with Krashen any day of the week. Plus he's not trying to sell anything. You can't learn a language with a textbook and a CD and repeat over and over again. Language learning has become a huge business. For my own experience, motivation is the key. I speak 4 languages but most people don't give a damn about it or about learning another language. Sorry but for me you sound like a used car salesman. Krashen is a professor not a language instructor.
Stephen Krashen seems to use alot of words to say the most obvious observations. His ideas seem so vague, nothing to pin down. Like what's the system that he is against?? Does it exist?? I thought everybody thinks more or less like the does.
First you say he doesn't speak the languages, then you say that he doesn't speak it well. I have no idea what your argument is but it's clear you're trying to belittle his efforts and opinion just because he disagrees with Krashen. This is a free world, everyone is free to have his own point of view. If you don't agree, don't watch it. There's no reason for you to insult someone just because he doesn't think as you do. Grow up.
Listening came first to the baby, a lot of listening. How do suggest a baby or anyone start speaking who has not heard the language? Input comes first. Unlike the baby adults can read. So, for adults, listening and reading come first, in my view.
I learn a lot in one year with the Stephen Krashen ideas. In just one year!
Regarding your third point: "How much writing is beneficial for language acquisition?" That's exactly Krashen's point. It's the reading, reading and reading make the real difference in acquiring a language. Writing helps with organizing thoughts and better to express one. But it's not the pathway to acquire a language. Krashen agrees with you on writing as a necessary practice but not essential. Thank you for doing all of your talks. I especially enjoyed episode to advise Mark Z to improve his intonation in Chinese. Very practical! Thank you!
If something is necessary it is also essential, though I can understand your point.
Steve, I have tried a lot of the advice that polyglots give on you tube and found that most of it is just hype to sell their books and cds so I am skeptical of polyglots. I have found you however to speak honestly from your experience. Thank you.
I make mistakes in Russian, but I am convinced that I would speak and understand less Russian if I had studied any other way. It is fine to make mistakes, not a problem. Eventually I will make fewer mistakes.
By the way, who at the How to forum said that and when?
Having learned a few languages to a native level, I must say that yes, active input is absolutely essential to get to the last 20% or so. In that, I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, I do think I need to point something you said and add nuances. You say listening (comprehensive input) is in your opinion more important than reading, and I understand why one could say that. In the short term, it is really faster. But one cannot reach a really native level without some heavy reading. That being said, speaking is important, not only to improve pronunciation but also to organize one's thoughts. I also would like to share a technique that is in my opinion not only way too scarcely used but also drastically underestimated. I learn speeches by heart, mimicking every single detail of the original performance. After every single speech learned this way, my language skills really take a giant leap forward. But I have to confess that this isn't for everyone as it can require eh... how to put it.. quite a substantial amount of time...
I agree on the importance of reading. If I have time to dedicate to learning, I read. I listen while doing other tasks. The reading helps with vocabulary, and the listening helps my speaking, and of course oral comprehension.
***** AJ Hoge teaches this exact mimicking technique to attain native-like pronunciation, I'm glad to know it works so well, I'm not quite ready to do it yet, but I'll definitely do it in time.
may i know which method did used to develop to ur english? and improve vecobulary?
Jagadish .A Hi. Let me give you a piece of advice which will help a lot if you are really passionate about English and want to get fluency. Never study gramma the traditional way. If you just want to speak and write correct English the readind gives you all you need to advance towards your goal.
So readind is important but there are other things to know which are being in a peak emotional state ..being happy and the state of not being afraid of mistakes. The linguists as Steve Kaufman, A.J.Hoge and others are all pointing in the same direction saying that the normal/old methods don't suit the learners.
Big grin, good luck!
From watching a lot of Krashen's talk here on youtube, I gathered that he also thinks that reading should not only be meaningful but interesting, he uses a synonym Compelling. He says that students should read stories that are not only interesting, but they should be compelling.
By the way, I do not learn grammar just by induction. I save words and phrases and tag them for case and other issues that I am trying to increase my awareness of. i also occasionally read through Teach Yourself Russian grammar and sometimes pick up some things that I have missed. But I find remembering the rules impossible. Meanwhile I have a large vocabulary and enjoy radio and audio books and literature in Russian. And I make mistakes. Mistakes are glorious!!
Its undertandable content and its not only the most important thing, its the only thing that works.
Your method is GREAT! It helps me to impruve my English. Thanks
Firstly, I'm really enjoying listening to your ideas, & I agree with you.
I happen to be a grammar junky, it just comes very easily to me. What took me a long to realise tho, was that learning grammar is of very, very limited use when it comes to learning to use a language, & I agree 100% that reading & listening are by far the most productive ways of aquiring a language.
Your Swedish, by the way, is a testament to your method, I think. Not faultless but very clear.
Steve, Krashen never said that there's something wrong with a little grammar, he just said that it's extremely limited, and you agree with that.
@findmads Her name is Beniko Mason, you would have to google her name to find her work.
I think that grammar is helpful if we treat it as something we refer to from to time to help us notice the language, but not with the goal of remembering all the rules nor as something to constrict our use of the language. I think that if we pay attention to our input and output, we gradually can notice our gaps and improve. Fossilization can be overcome with enough time and the right attitude.
It sounds very reasonable. Since I'm learning my first (additional) language and am also developing the method that works for me I can only agree that some small amount of writing is helpful to join the dots of the things that I've absorbed.
Unfortunately the bulk of the time with Japanese is simply in learning to read, so the ability to gain from input is somewhat delayed. In the meantime I tend to listen a lot and study grammar - I can't pick it up from reading yet!
Post 3: Now I'm 25, and I've started on Japanese. The approach necessary was completely different from both German and Chinese. Immediately I had to learn the alphabets hiragana and katakana, as well as reading up a bit more about grammar than I would have needed to for other languages, since the grammar was completely different than anything I had ever encountered. In this case, learning grammar (without overdoing it) would make learning Japanese a bit easier. I really enjoy your videos!
I've just gotten B2 level at english just by reading and listening, I never spoke in English until the day of the test, so I really hope you're wrong so I can reach a C1 level without having to talk to anyone :)
That sounds too good to be true.
You don't sound like the most social person lol
Thanks Frosty, I will leave it. What you describe is kind of why I stopped going to that site.
Thanks for your insights - after being at odds with so many Krashen purists, I am glad to see that you are putting his methodology in perspective.....
I have been a language teacher for more than decades. I'm going to reply to your talk in few parts, otherwise, it might get too long. When you are comparing yourself, a super motivated polyglot, with general population, yes, you would be more interested in taking on difficult tasks. However, observing unmotivated learners in my classes, typically, it's these easy, or even below their instructional level books bring them on track slowly. Once they find something easy and interesting, there would be a hook. Expecting them to open a dictionary to try making sense out of an over-reaching content is like putting them on a path to fail. "Nothing motivates like success." We don't give our children to read Shakespeare. Lastly, I want to add that I have been enjoying listening to your talk. This is only a difference in opinion.
+haiyun lu I agree on the need for easier content and we are working on ways to make LingQ easier and to introduce more structured and easier material. I have found that the Q and A and type of content that Piotr uses for Polish is useful for learning the structures of the language.
+Steve Kaufmann - lingosteve Very happy to hear that. I need to check out your website sometimes soon:)
+Verbatim Mitabrev
And he's so "horrible" that people like Krashen himself say that Steve Kaufmans website is an excellent tool. (as he stated in an interview with Aaron Myers)
I don't understand your aggressions towards Steve Kaufman. He doesn't claim to be a teacher, he doesn't claim to have a degree in this field or anything of that sort. He sees himself as what he is - a person that likes to learn languages and that wants to share the experiences he made over time. What he says is to a very high degree in line with Krashen and everyone is entitled to have an own opinion.
+haiyun lu
I recommend you to take a look at it. I also checked out the website of your language school and I think it would be a useful complement due to the similarities in concept of your reading corner.
Thank you very much for the free material on your website by the way!
Great video! Although my experience in language learning is much less vast than your own, I'd like to make an addendum: Different languages should be learnt in a different manner. For example: I was able to learn German from a novel at age 18. With no previous knowledge, I threw that novel open and looked up every single word I didn't know and wrote it down. After 7 novels and the occasional looking up of grammar on the internet, I was decently fluent in 1-2 months.
I agree that the nature of a text is more important than having input+1. I enjoy reading Polish literature and watching comedies, even when I misunderstand it or get a bit lost - I know I'm exposing myself to the language.
You also mention that some amount of production is important too - yes! I actually find that reading/listening are much more effective ways to learn when combined with something productive, e.g. tell somebody in L2 about what I just read.
In regards to getting just the "right" amount of new vocabulary, didn't Kató Lomb acquire a lot of her languages through reading books? Since she reported having a rather small selection for some languages, she must've pushed the boundaries of comprehension quite a bit. While I agree that having not too many incomprehensible words is optimal, it seems to be possible to really teeter at the edge of comprehension. Right now, for my Spanish acquisition I'm reading "Harry Potter y la piedra filosofal", but I have this book by Juan Francisco Ferrández called "La Tierra Maldita", a historical novel quite a bit higher in difficulty than Rowling's book, and I'm really intrigued by it, despite having to guess a lot of the vocab.
i wonder if "difficulty" is more accurately measured by the perceived individual fatigue vs some numerical accounting of known vs unknown words
Nicely done adverticement.
There's Reading Writing Listening and Speaking. They are difficult in that order. And they use different parts of the brain. Many teachers leave you demoralized..and many make learners give up. Dont expect much tuition from a native speaker..but they will talk to you...Thats what I have learnt ..and I'm a muddy builder
Steve, I read a few pages of a Harry Potter book written in German every day. The words that I don’t know, I look up on google translate on my iphone as I am reading. In what way would LinkQ improve or speed up this process? I don’t understand what link does or how you use it. Of all your posts I have not found any that explain what LinkQ does and how to use it. It would be good for everyone if you would explain how you use linkQ when you are learning a new language. Thanks.
Post 2: This approach, however, would not have worked with Mandarin. Chinese characters are too complex and the amount of effort needed to learn Chinese from a novel would be so immense that mental exhaustion would occur long before language acquisition. The solution: When I was 22, I merely watched T.V. shows and chatted with friends online and via skype and learned like that. Listening was very important in Chinese, grammar learning was unnecessary.
By spoken language I meant oral language, language that we can hear from someone else, not written. Yes listening comes first, then speaking (to acquire the real pronunciation and accent) and then reading and then writing. Reading script without being able to pronounce it correctly generates big problems in the future :/
I can't disagree with Mr. Kaufman - your points are valid, but I still adore Krashen. I learnt (or better say "acquired") 2 foreign languages in natural environment while being in foreign countries - while in Sweden, I studied grammar intensively for a couple of months and then listened and read a lot... A LOT!!!! (like 6-8 hours a day) I received a lot of input along with grammar study in Sweden and I started speaking in my 5th month of study, nearly fluently at once (at the same time I was also very good in writing because of my grammar studies, I assume). Later on in life I ended up in a Spanish speaking country and there, I did not take any course, but started reading newspapers and listening a lot to formal Spanish.. I started speaking in about a year, but I was not very accurate and my writing skills were non-existent... and they are still not good to this day, even though I have been in close touch with Spanish for about 8 years now. I seriously need to take a course and study grammar in order to become completely literate. Spanish is my 4th foreign language and I kind of picked it up easily, but not with precision and I hate it. This is the point where I disagree with Krashen that we don't need grammar study - some basic grammar is absolutely necessary. Accurate (!) use of tenses can only be understood through a detailed formal instruction.
Well, if you are using formal work on grammar alongside your work with input, you're not really following Krashen's advice. He believes that grammar can only play a virtually insignificant secondary role. But when I read his ideas in detail, I feel that he seriously mischaracterises how grammar would be used by an intelligent adult learner. My personal approach blends input with very targeted grammar work on areas of weakness, and it works for me.
Also.
The only aim of a teacher is to make themselves redundant as quickly as possible. Anything other than that is spoon feeding.
***** Because you're an idiot.
Teachers should be there to help you figure out how to be autonomous. Anything else is spoon feeding and hand holding and therefore keeps the student at the level of a child.
***** Yes because you are an idiot.
In my experience those people that make a lot of progress by themselves are the ones that are most successfull in language acquisition. The ones that only learn what is taught in class fall behind. Empowering students to become independant language learners is invaluable.
It's clear Kaufmann doesn't really understand what Krashen is saying
you mean Krashen's input was not comprehensible? O_o
Thekla Fall Why? What is he saying then?
@evelioto I doubt having knowledge of grammar has anything to do with the ability to speak a language at all. It may be a window into a language for linguists and theorist - but there is little evidence which supports grammar study functions in any way to enhance language learning.
Also, just because listening comes first for a baby, doesn't mean you have to learn exactly like a baby. As an adult you have many more tools at your disposal. (Like a native language for association) You should use them. The optimal order for an adult would be reading, listening, speaking, then writing. Reading a short introduction into Mandarin pronunciation would suffice as Mandarin pronunciation is relatively easy. (fewer sounds than most other languages, thus the necessity of the tones)
0:54 who is benny co mason?
Beniko Mason
11 years ago? No aging at all, I think.
Regarding your second point: "Should students do output activity?" Krashen never says "No, there shouldn't be any output any activity." and all one needs is "input" and "input". This is a misunderstanding of Krashen. Krashen says, "Everyone acquires language at difference pace." What he really says is that the length and input amount varies from person to person. When someone is ready to output, go ahead. Let's don't expect everyone to do output activity all at the same time. Also, "input" starts from listening, not reading. Of course, there are going to be tons of and tons of listening first.
+haiyun lu agreed
@ewcia2288
youtube : Stephen Krashen on Language Acquisition.
I believe he says that speaking can be a source to comprehensible input, but only through conversation.
In the beginning output is not the most important thing, reading and listing, watching is far more effective.
Hi Steve I really want you answer this question do you think effortless English system by aj hoge is effective for me to learn
TPR does not really concern about reading or writing ergo it doesn't really concer about characters. TPR and the natural approach are right brained approaches and they are all about comprehensible input, spoken language that you can understand through visuals , kinetics and common sense. Yes there's actual a reason why reading and writing should be the last things, how can you read and write a language if you cannot speak it, when you were a baby what came first?
Hi steve. Could you post the link to the reseach by d´errico Mason ??or what was his or her name?
Also what are your thoughts on Fossilization and interlanguage ? ....do you also believe that gramma-instruction causes us to develop " a monitor" for speaking ?,
that we constantly are reviewing everything we say/have said and could gramma- instruction lead to fossilization ? how do you think we can avoid Fossilized errors ?
It could work with Mandarin, the only exeption is that before you do it, you need to learn the tones. After that you can follow the Natural Approach, BTW reading is not that essential to the Natural Approach at the beginning, is just TPR a little bit revised. Reading and writing should be the last things you need to learn. Obviously after you master pinyin first.
Too many Steve K's in this field, as if it wasn't confusing enough ;-)
Yes, but you're a genius! I'm sticking to kids picture books.
Uh, he actually speaks them quite well. Have you seen his other videos?
You cannot learn a language by writing and speaking it. Reading and listening teaches you the language and then you can use the language to speak and write. I wasted years trying to speak a language that I hadn’t first learned by reading and listening. Now the only thing that I do is read authentic material an hour a day and my progress is better than I expected. Every day, while I read, I find words whose meaning I know, that I never tried to memorize. Apparently, while reading, I am learning new words. Its likely because I look up the meaning of words and see them used in context many times. I wish I had tried reading authentic material years ago. I wasted a lot of time.
By the way, insulting people and character assassination doesn't count as a legit point of view. If you think Steve's opinion about Krashen's theory is wrong, then please do share, why you think it's wrong, why Krashen is better and support it with proof points.
@Aeux for quickly learning chinese characters try remembering the kanji/hanzi by james heisig
I can't believe that's 7 years ago, you don't look a day older!
Conscious grammar and other linguistic rules ARE language learning according to Krashen.
I think the most important thing is REAL content.
There's nothing more laughable than seeing some course being sold and it's completely unnatural and completely fake feeling.
You'll see a French course that gives it stuff like this:
Dialogue:
Person 1: Bonjour, comment ça va?
Person 2: Ça va bien, merci! Et vous?
I live in France and NOBODY here talks like that. It's so unnatural and forced. Grammatically 'correct' 'book' language needs to stop being taught because it's pointless for the real world. You'll hear 'Ça va?' and the response will either be 'oui' or 'Ça va. Toi?'
Even pronunciation is taught badly. Even on the news people will most likely pronounce 'il y a' more like ee-yah or just 'ya' yet you'll see every course ever try to make you pronounce it fully. Then there are annoying things like being taught you have to put ne + pas when in reality it's hardly used. It's just verb+pas. On is also used a lot more than nous yet books only teach you 'nous'.
The point being, that REAL content is the best if you want to learn to communicate with actual people. If you want to learn to read literature then read literature.
***** What a silly comment.
It presumes that the DELF are good things. They're not. They do nothing but grade your own hard work in the language. It would be cheaper to get yourself to a high level in the language and then simply submit written and video evidence of your language ability to an employer/university (which is all they are used for).
Ça va? :D
Do you, by chance, know some concrete ways in which someone should learn French? I mean, I want to learn the aspects of language which you talked about. I need real content really bad. Could you check out FluentU and tell me if it's truly a real content which there aids you in learning? (note: I'm not advertising a product).
Nina Jolić Just find real people talking to each other. Try Easy French on youtube. Podcasts. Vlogs etc.
Yeah the "Easy Language" youtube channel is quite good.
always good man always good tidbits hidden to goose the ass of language acquisition. however I don't like linq... go figure.
You're not missing anything. There are quite a few pious types who seem to think that languages are a noble intellectual calling, rather than something to have fun with and use as a means of communication.
They seemed to be genuinely confused by the concept of learning a language just for fun, or as a window into a country's culture.
Of all the people they could have targeted, Moses must surely be the least deserving of their snobbish ire. How can he not be an inspiration to us all?
When you said "this approach" I thought that you were talking about the Natural Approach invented by Krashen (which is the topic of this video) that was in itself derived from TPR, that's why when you said "this wouldn't work with Madarin" I was like... Yeah it could work. Everything that I said until now is in behalf of the theory not myself. But now I realize that you don't wanna talk about the actual theories he presented which I thought was the point of this video, now I see it isn't.
They may read just as well as the people who had reading and writing practice, but they won't write as well... So writing+reading still beats just reading.
This sounds more like a LingQ advertisement.
Krashen as most of people who know better is humble and unassuming...not the guy here
Umm, no that approach does not work with Chinese unless you're a machine. The issue is not about the tones... but the complexity of Chinese characters themselves. It might work if you're a machine that never gets tired... but for a regular person using this method on Chinese... it's near impossible. Please note: my method means you have no pre-knowledge of the language. There is no reason reading and writing should be the last steps. Depends on your personality.
This video and it's title only show the weakness of Steve Kaufmann. i've been waching many kaufmann's videos and I agree totally about the importante of reading and listening, speaking e writing, but the title of this video and it's content show me only the weakness of caracter of Kaufmann. I only know Krashen by the videos made by Kaufmann. It's all.
No offense... but... who the hell was talking about TPR??? I was talking about subconscious saturation. I don't remember ever mentioning TPR. Nor did I ever mention right or left-brained approaches. If you are going to answer my posts, please say something meaningful and don't just throw out a string of words that have nothing to do with the conversation for argument's sake. If you want to start a new topic then post a new comment, don't answer mine. Lol...
Wait so you're telling me you just opened Tolstoy, sat there with a dictionary, and read swapping between the books, for hours?
First you say he doesn't speak the languages, then you say that he doesn't speak it well. I have no idea what your argument is but it's clear you're trying to belittle his efforts and opinion just because he disagrees with Krashen.
This is a free world, everyone is free to have his own point of view. If you don't agree, don't watch it. There's no reason for you to insult someone just because he doesn't think as you do.
Grow up.
I am an Italian speaker and I can tell his Italian is poor and stilted and this is proof 1) he overestimates his skills(title:How I learned Italian=he hasn't learned Italian) 2) His accent his not that good even in other languages ,,and 'quite well' isn't well enough for someone who pontificates on how to go about learning a foreign languag
I'd go with Krashen any day of the week. Plus he's not trying to sell anything. You can't learn a language with a textbook and a CD and repeat over and over again. Language learning has become a huge business. For my own experience, motivation is the key. I speak 4 languages but most people don't give a damn about it or about learning another language. Sorry but for me you sound like a used car salesman. Krashen is a professor not a language instructor.
is not ...that good ..sorry
Stephen Krashen seems to use alot of words to say the most obvious observations. His ideas seem so vague, nothing to pin down. Like what's the system that he is against?? Does it exist?? I thought everybody thinks more or less like the does.
First you say he doesn't speak the languages, then you say that he doesn't speak it well. I have no idea what your argument is but it's clear you're trying to belittle his efforts and opinion just because he disagrees with Krashen.
This is a free world, everyone is free to have his own point of view. If you don't agree, don't watch it. There's no reason for you to insult someone just because he doesn't think as you do.
Grow up.