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I would love to subscribe, but I don't have a credit card (quite normal for Dutch ppl), and I'm not getting one just for this... Please get them to accept more than just credit cards... Not everyone lives in the US.
Third spaces can take many forms. Religion, Sports clubs & Night school are classic Third Spaces. Its a toss up on the net who came first between communities like the well, bix/cix, IRC & MUD's & MOO's but they quickly evolved into second life, MMORG's etc All virtual pub spaces where people meet people regularly & become friends. Back in the 90's lots of people were on LiveJournal, but I had a great community that I played Unreal Fortress with (and I miss all of you if your reading this). These days I hang out of esoteric TH-cam Communities like the Guitar Geeks even when I don't even play!
Its really annoying Standard Management (the people behind Nebula) don't have an Xbox app but Curiosity Stream do. I pay for both either way even if can't watch Nebula because its a silly price
this is probably why a lot of americans remember their college & university years so fondly. It's a campus full of third places with towns popping up around them where you can go hang out. it's probably the biggest contributing factor in why people say you learn to define yourself during those years
Somebody went on a forum once and said, "How do I make friends?" And the best response I heard basically said that you need to become a "regular" somewhere. Go to the same coffee place every Tuesday, or the gym every Thursday night, or whatever, and you'll recognize other 'regulars' and staff members and will be immediately easier to break the ice with them and create a friendship from a common interest. Some of the best advice I've ever heard, but is increasingly difficult to do when you have to drive everywhere all the time.
@@kupokraft3685 Yea that's kind of the problem. I bike to my gym most Fridays, more people should. You're going for cardio anyway might as well eliminate your commuting time by making it part of the workout.
I think something that's critical to the 3rd place is that there needs to be an option where you can just exist without someone trying to extract value from you. Cafes and Pubs are great and all, but that doesn't work for those with low or no income. We also need parks, libraries, community centres, museums and art galleries.
Just wanted to say that this channel literally made my life better. We were looking for a property because my wife was expecting. Coming from small commy block apartment it is customary around here to move to the suburbs into a brand new house becoming part of cardependent nightmare. Instead, convinced by the arguments in these videos we moved in a modern apartament building close to the city center. The price was about the same, we lost the backyard but gained all the advantages described here. I never been so happy in my entire life. Thank you!
An important addition to the mall discussion: my local mall also implemented a rule recently where nobody under 18 is allowed to go inside the mall without a parent or guardian after 3pm. It's meant to deter underage shoplifters and vandals, but I think all it does is further narrow down what suburban teenagers are allowed to do. No wonder they just stay online all the time...
Also reduces the custom of the mall over the long term, as those under 18 will probably just shop online, then keep that habit into adulthood, resulting in the mall closing. Dose Elon Musk own/run that mall with such a "concept" of a brain fart?
@@Snowshowslow Which can be easily dealt with if the the teenager is honest about their age and the personnell is prepared to ask. Though some places is later in the evening maybe not what a teenager should experience.
And what`s the reaction of the teenagers? Do they now demonstrate each day from 4 till 6 on the mall parking lot against that really stupid rule or do they just take it? If tens of millions kids can skip school and demonstrate for better policies regarding climate change each Friday, I am sure that something that is affecting them right now and directly should be even more motivating to get on the street and stick it to the man.
@@atomicsmith Counter question: Which industries did Elon disrupt? His companies did invent a worse train, a worse tunnel boring machine, some decently working solar-tech, a car full of consumer electronics and a satellite network which is risking to end all space travel for the rest of mankind's exitance and seems to rely on subsidies from Pentagon and White House. I am not sure if this is the kind of disruption anyone should aim for. But sure, he made a lot of money with holding is stock after getting kicked out as CEO and watching how others build up PayPal. His parents really invested their money well. ;-) Nothing had been disruptive so far and Tesla's stock only makes Elon the riches man on earth because it has the potential to maybe be disruptive. Or not, that Stock can lose half it's worth in like a day apparently when people take their money and run. Sounds more like Bitcoin than Apple stocks from an investment perspective.
I feel a huge amount of social/political divide in the US is driven by the fact that everyone lives almost completely isolated lives at home with just immediate family, privately in their car to and from work, privately at work in a cubicle or desk. And as you point out, most people and their immediate neighbors tend to be of similar socioeconomic background. We feel separated, because we are. Some of the most fascinating conversations I've had have been in pubs or restaurants in Europe where I've met locals or other travelers. We talked late into the night having great food and drinks. Try chatting all night with strangers at your local Applebee's in a suburban area and you'll probably get kicked out for being a weirdo.
The third place sounds a lot like what college campus life is like, a series of small places where spontanous meetings between different people can occur.
Probably a reason why we Americans loved college/university so much and find it hard to recapture that level of social activity afterwards: college campuses & college towns are *full* of third places where you bump into friends & acquaintances
The concept of "no loitering" laws seems completely insane to me, even more so if it applies to places like a public park. Why on earth even have a public park if people are not supposed to spend time there? WTF, America?
Earlier this year I had a conversation with my mom where I said that I felt like I lived in a tunnel. The office was on one side, and my apartment was on the other. What I was describing, without knowing it, was the lack of a third place.
Used to work at Starbucks. In theory they say they want to make their stores into "third places", but in reality its mostly feel good corporate crap. The idea worked out ok at the location I worked at because its in a relatively small commercial area surrounded by residential (all single family homes mind you but the walking distances aren't prohibitive), even with that most people still drove there so the small parking lot was always a mess. If they were really committed to recreating third places, why did they reduce seating when they renovated the store? Why were they frequently trying to reduce the amount of patio furniture? And the most telling, why are they slowly shutting down cafe stores like the one I worked at in favor of replacing them with drive thru's. Sorry, bit of a rant but your video really put things into context.
Absolutely. The one I used to go to all the time switched to really dark decor, black everywhere with migraine-friendly unshielded bright lights. Also the seats were all swapped into hard wood, no couch or cushioned seats. I figured they were trying to encourage fast turnover due to pain if nothing else lol.
There was a discussion about my city a while back and someone said " is built for exclusively consumers and employees, there's no room to just... be human" and I agreed, of course I did because I could FEEL it, but I could never explain why I felt the way I did. This video just put those feelings into words. My city feels like this empty capital serving husk BECAUSE there are no third places. We exist to work and consume, and like the woman earlier said, there just isn't any room to live! Thanks NJB, for taking ideas and emotions we've always had and putting them into words and arguments we can use.
Lately I've been talking about this a lot about my city as well! Some of the specific areas retain some aspect of this but the downtown core is hostile to people just being human there. If you aren't an office worker who commutes in or a consumer going to a fancy bar or event, you're not going to find much hospitality, let alone a public restroom...
@@linuxman7777 I'm a little bit confused by this. What about Mister Donuts and the little bakeries and delis? When I studied abroad (in Tohoku) there was a reading room in one of the bookstores where you could study or chat with your friends. Little places like that. Especially the izakaya, in more rural areas the locals would say hi to each other even if you weren't at their table. Bars of course, and the small soba shops that are set up with bar stools around a central counter. Maybe in Tokyo there's more pressure for high turnover on a table, so they don't let you hang out, I wouldn't know. But in smaller cities you can chill at a Mister Donuts and study all day. You're right there's not a lot of sidewalk patios for outside eating, but there's still third places I'd say.
@@linuxman7777 Its not due to capitalism. Look at what remains of the neighborhoods of the USSR. Masses of apartment complexes with nothing around but maybe a small playground for children. Emphasis on small. Its a problem inherent in all new city planning styles developed in the 20th and 21st century.
I don’t like to drink and every weekend I think to myself, “I wish the cafe was open right now.” We need more social spaces after hours not centered on drinking or spending money
The closest to that is a park.Other than that I don't there will ever be a place indoors aside from a gym or recreation center past midnight where you don't need to spend money.
In Denmark we are currently experimenting with keeping libraries open after the employees has left. We use our library cards to get in, so they know who has been there. I don't think I've found one open past midnight, but several of them gets really close.
in latinoamerican countries cyber cafés were really popular, specially among younger ppl, you still need to pay, but it was really cheap and ppl just hung out there watching other playing or just talking and going to places after.
I've always subconsciously felt a lot of what's been described in this video, but I've never heard it put so eloquently. If I want to go out for drinks with friends I don't want to fight to find parking, probably pay $8-10 for it, limit myself to 1-2 drinks, try to remember where I parked, then drive 30 minutes home. Community is missing in North America and it's pretty essential for our wellbeing.
American here, lack of Third Place honestly really badly effects kids and teenagers. Most the time when kids or teens see other kids or teens, it is at school, where you get 8 hours of class time (when you stop talking unless its a group project) and then 30 minutes of lunch. The lunch time is basically when you hang out with friends, and big chance you don't live near each other, and mom and dad aren't always going to be there too (or want too) drive their kids all the time to the other persons house to hang out. So its taken away both the ability for us to make IRL friends for the most part, and for us to hang out IRL since kids, and most teens (unless you're one of those 16 year olds who has a car) can't drive. I feel this has made us very introverted, as who seek some more of socialization, because we're humans, so the internet is basically our only place we can, but you don't see that person on the internet, or shack their hand, go to a movie, or have a cup of coffee with. It's just not the same.
There needs to be more places for kids to hang out and meet other kids with similar interests. Places like game rooms, arcades, gyms, parks with ball fields and outdoor games, maker spaces and hobby shops. Places where they can go to learn new things too. When I was young there was a slot car racing place that many kids went to. Good healthy fun. It would also be great if more retired people like myself had places where we could interface with kids to teach them things like photography or woodworking or fixing and building bikes.
Also teenagers because good forbid teenagers have someplace to hang out, they aren't always causing trouble. Also we need to bring back mental hospitals, mentally ill people don't want housing, but they need to be some place where they will be taken care of.
@@lainiwakura1776 Here in the Netherlands we recognise 2 groups, "hang jongeren", teenagers hanging out, & "hang ouderen", pensioners (mostly men) hanging out. Lonely people need to meet somewhere cheap.
I think you can talk about how important a 3rd place can be for children some more. I always wished to hand out with people outside of school and maybe meet people other than my classmates and I feel like it would have benefited my current social standing. In cartoons you also see these places sometimes and I always wanted to experience them. I think the best example is Craig of the creek where the creek is a place the kids go to after school to play around. The fact that kids today might only go to school and nowhere else is probably a big factor in loneliness,depression, introversion and video game/social media addiction.
That is because kids were raised to not trust anyone not even neighbors and also people see kids who go out alone and will call the police and blame the parents.Suburbia is not considered an environment safe for kids anymore.That is why dense walkable areas are much better for families.
When I was a kid, in the Sixties, anytime I went outside the house, I would find a lot of other kids of my age in the street, no matter what the weather was like. We were all of large (but relatively poor) families. Nowadays, we have smaller (and wealthier) families. When I took my kid outside, some 20 years ago, to a nearby playground, there was NOBODY there. That was sad, tbh. In my time, the whole world was our playground, and, as we got older, we explored further. In the Eighties, I spent a few years in Africa - it felt like I'd traveled back in time to my childhood. Just goes to show, progress is not always progress. So, yeah, I can understand why kids these days get addicted to their smartphones and social media. They are exploring a wholly different world.
Another benefit is reduced political polarization. People are less likely to consider everyone on the other side of the political fence a lunatic trying to destroy their country when they know a few people who vote the other way who are decent, kind, regular people. And they’re less likely to fall into extremist rabbit holes on the internet themselves when they could be down at the pub with real live people instead.
@@danielmikula1375 yeah this really seems to me like the biggest driving factor in the modern american culture. its hard not to come to believe that its going to lead us into some increasingly dark places.
@@jordrider1917 cafes as well! Also, I'm not certain the original argument holds water seeing as even places that have a strong "Third place" culture (i.e. England, Germany) have large right wing extremist movements.
@@jordrider1917 When lots of regular people can get together and talk about the issues, building a consensus is somewhat easier than when they're shouted at with insanity that no one's around to question.
The bit about organized house parties/barbecues could also use one more bit - organizing and hosting can get _exhausting_ really quick, and after a while, it starts feeling like a chore to set one up, so people slowly stop offering and even _that_ opportunity disappears. (Real) Third Places remove this barrier by being someplace people can just go to.
Malls do not want to be third places. Security guards make sure of that. My friends and I were paying customers and I was still almost kicked out for loitering. We ate dinner at the mall and purchased movie tickets. We had a little bit of time to kill between dinner and the movie. My friends decided swing by a couple stores while I chose to sit in a little lounge area and rest my eyes. Security tried to kick me out because you can't sleep in the mall. If this is what they do to a well dressed, well groomed paying customer just killing a little time between paid activities, I'd hate to know what they do to someone who hasn't or can't spend money there.
A third place I've been using a lot in urban Ottawa is dog parks. In suburban fake London the closest dog park was hidden behind a water treatment plant and basically had to be driven to. The ones I go to in Ottawa are positioned right in the heart of the neighborhood and most actually increase connectivity within the neighborhood by acting as a shortcut between blocks.
I live in urban Ottawa as well. We used to have a really nice dog park right beside my neighbourhood but it was bought out and turned into another neighbourhood unfortunately.
In defense of that Greenway dog park's accessibility; at least it's on one of the few bicycle paths in London. I found London could be reasonably bike friendly if all your destinations are along the river, because the bicycle paths follow it. I'm not sure how easily you can bicycle your dog to the park, perhaps if you had a cargo bike or a trailer?
I am European. Watching your videos is kinda like looking at a crash which is North America. It’s especially sad to her about children there. Also helps to appreciate and embrace what we got.
Wanna know something I learned while working a co-op contract job at Hyundai HQ Canada? In North America they sell a car called the Venue (idk if they do elsewhere tbh), I was watching sales training videos on all their cars just to familiarize myself with them and the Venue one included the reasoning behind its name. It's called the Venue because in car dependent North America your "Third-place" IS your car, so they named the car the Venue to allude to this. I didn't think much of it back then (mainly because I wasn't watching this channel at the time and I just kinda went "Oh yeah that makes sense for a name") but now after watching this video and realizing that a third place doesn't have to be a car it only adds to list of things I hate about a suburban lifestyle.
Sitting alone in your car for a couple of hours each day, makes your car anything but a third place. Who are you going to meet, except for the occasional bout of road rage when you cut or hit someone?
It’s interesting that Hyundai the manufacturer that makes some of the most bland cars to drive (exceptions being like the genesis but that’s still a poor performance car and the recent stingers which are still mediocre) wants their car to be the third place you WANT to be when they struggle to make cars that build a connection with the road. Idk I might just be a weird Honda guy but it seems strange
@@hendman4083 that’s just the reality of the situation. When you’re forced to spend like an hour and up in your car commuting each day your car gets forced into being your third place. It’s depressing
@@synible it’s definitely weird to name your entry level suv that and for that reason. It’ll ride like a cheap car (as it is one) and it’ll have minimal sound deadening so it won’t be a pleasing experience. It’s almost like they played around the fact that having your car forced to be your third place is just a depressing concept. For the reason they outlined for the name, I’d probably give that kinda name to an ultra-luxury kinda car. If it’s your third place it should be as enjoyable as possible right?
This is fascinating to me as an introvert. I live in a city where there is no shortage of third places (there are 3 cafés in my street alone and a public park just around the corner) but I never go there, I'm always just home. Maybe I should go more often. 🤔
Ease into it by bringing a laptop or a book and just hanging out there by yourself, and eventually get to know people (probably first the people who work there, if it's a cafe)
Do literally what makes you feel at home. Feel lonely? Maybe give it a shot but if you are genuinely happy dont feel forced to as Jason said having those places makes the area better to live in in general.
As someone living just on the rural side of suburban America, I can confirm the lack of a decent third place. The closest I've been to experiencing this is when my highschool orchestra saved up for a class trip to Ireland. Me and a couple other kids were wandering Dublin and popped into a tiny hole in the wall pub for a shepherd's pie and some apple tart. I don't think I'll ever be truly happy until I'm able to frequent a place like that. I think I might move to Ireland once I finish college. I've found a nice school that's close ish to friends and family, and not too expensive, so with luck I can graduate without too much debt, and be free of this hellish country before too many years more.
I always wondered why I loved the historic downtown areas of my state, always wishing I could live there, stay there for longer... it's almost like that tiny square of possible walkability was funner than driving everywhere. Your videos literally made me rethink my entire life in America. So much so that I've completely left the country. I hope for good.
As a non-American raised on TV I thought a common third place for Americans was the local diner. Was so sad when I visited to find out diners are basically now just truck stops. Twin Peaks lied to me!
The place where I grew up was a typical North American suburb but it has a decent little "third place" that I can appreciate a lot more after watching this video. The neighbourhood is a new-ish housing development much like the one at 10:19 but right in the middle of it, within close walking distance to most houses, there is a little strip with a convenience store, a hair salon, a florist, a butcher, and a good casual restaurant/bar. It really isn't much at all, just a tiny island of community life within a sea of detached single family homes, but it makes a huge difference. Sometimes I'll go back there with a few friends and we'll have chance encounters with people I haven't seen in years or we'll just start chatting up and drinking with randoms. Yet some of my friends who still live there never go to the restaurant/bar right in the middle of their suburb because they like having "more space and freedom" at home. If they do go, they will insist on driving because the 5 - 10 minute walk is too far and they feel embarrassed to be seen walking outside. Then they ask me how I can stand living in the city without a car or a backyard.
I walk in a car-dependent city and the only other people out walking with me are visibly poor. I think it's just classism; people don't want to be seen as poor.
I recently came home from a cruise trip in Greece, Italy, and Croatia. The walkable cities, the hospitality, and the warm welcome I felt while I was there made me feel life was worth living again (I’m not suicidal!). But I’m back home in the states returning to the life I have been praying to escape from for a long time… This video demonstrated everything as to why I’m constantly reminded that I DO deserve the life that I have envisioned. Inshallah I will achieve such a life 🙏🏻
As an introvert who grew up in suburbia, the concept of a "third place" has always been foreign to me. Even when I've lived in cities where they were available, I never considered just going out to such a place without a specific reason to be there. Even on learning about them from content like this, the notion remains strange and vaguely intimidating. Even if we fix the physical infrastructure of "third places" in the US, I wonder how long it will take to rebuild the cultural infrastructure that underpins them. I'll probably never feel comfortable in one without a difficult acclimation period that I don't expect many people to be willing to deal with. There are whole generations where a sizable part of the population has experiences like mine and that won't go away just because these places begin to exist again.
Thanks for making it impossible to unsee poor city planning in my city but also for giving me reason to advocate for better cities. I live in one of the 10 biggest US cities and I'm pretty sure our mayor, who lives the floor above me, is a fan of the channel or at the very least the content and messages it promotes, so our city continues to improve. I went car-free 6 months ago and have no regrets. Thank you NJB!
Engineers of the so called "hustle culture" actually don't want us 'wasting' time in third places. We are supposed to be hustling hard and making them richer, instead. Millions of people who work ridiculously long hours, working two shifts a day, plus a side hustle. They are systemically told that they can't afford a third place. Companies quickly adapted to this trend and they began employing people who would also enjoy being friends while doing work. That's why there's always more chit chat and 'hanging' happening in US workplaces compared with European counterparts. When our lords are seeking answers to decreasing labour productivity, they should keep this in mind. WE ARE BURNING OUT.
In the Netherlands these "3rd places", especially in villages and suburbs, are becoming rarer since the eighties. I grew up in a village with about 4,000 people and four pubs. One has turned into a restaurant, the others are gone. Social interaction between people has changed because of the way we can communicate with one another. The town square lost its meaning.
Think that has predominantly to do with rent prices for businesses. The great 'sell out' and consequently the higher prices for commercial properties made it impossible to establish 'a third place', the rent is simply too high.
This was especially noticable in eastern germany, where post 1990 a lot of the social structures just vanished from one day to the next because the party was the most important third place, followed by pubs and stores that promptly went out of business once the free market hit
This reminds me of being broke teens in suburban high school. If you didn't have any money the only place we could "hang out" was the mall. The mall was a terrible place for broke teens to hang out so we usually ended up parked in the car somewhere listening to music till adults chased us away or it was time to go home. Wish we had a third place back then.
As someone who recently moved to a city my problem with this is that for a pub or cafe to be your local you necessarily will have to spend money there. As someone who rarely spends money unnecessarily I often miss out on the benefits you pointed out in this video even while living in a neighborhood with a lot of these options. Free meet up events still end up being my primary means of social interaction. I also think it’s important to note that urban life is not a silver bullet. If you’re a reserved person in suburbia you’ll likely still be that way in the city. I hoped the move would cure my anxiety around people but so far it hasn’t helped.
This video makes me very much wish I had a third place nearby. The wife and I go for walks every night but there's no established place where people congregate -- we occasionally run into people we recognize but there's no conversation made. And we're just walking up and down the streets of suburbia.
I've lived in suburban America my whole life and after living in Japan for the past 4 months, I've really come to realize how horrid American city design is. I live in a small area just outside of Tokyo, its not too busy yet there are still so many businesses and public spaces that I regularly go to. I'm spending the least amount of time inside I ever have in my life, and I'm regularly meeting new people. The thought of stepping out my door and walking to a public space or a restaurant is so normal to me now but I could never even imagine doing something like that in my American hometown
you make the most compelling arguments for "being social" I have ever heard. My whole life I thought all I wanted was isolation, but you're opening my perspective to new ideas.
I grew up in a walkable community, and I came to know a lot of the neighborhood adults because my parents had a "weak tie" to them. The third places in my neighborhood were pizzerias, bagel shops, delis, food specialty shops, and the list goes on and on. I knew just a little bit about a lot of people, and I was known at least by name to people of various ages. As I have lived in the suburbs in my adult life, I have realized that there are pockets of restaurants and bars that are mainly the result of being grandfathered in, which are still the local place, even if the patrons moved elsewhere in town and drive over. All of this is by design to have exclusivity, due in large part of fear of the other. Suburbia was created based on "white flight" from cities, and there is that key selling point of looking clean and safe, which i always envision as places you want to get in and out as efficiently as possible.
This channel is the reason why I visited Denmark for a month to experience a walk-able city and good public transport. I felt the saddest I have felt in a long time when I had to go back to America. This video describes why. I didn't even know this was a thing before I went. Please keep up the videos. You are changing (improving) lives.
There was a very brief period of time in the late 90s and early 00s where internet cafes were a good Third Place. Pop in, play some games, chat with other nerds. It was a great time. I miss it.
One new development in the U.S. = the pickleball courts. One reason why tennis attracts a very different crowd is the social aspect. Pickleball players often sit in a common area while they wait for the next game, which promotes socializing with strangers. Players of all ages and socio-economic groups mingle, though senior citizens predominate. It doesn't quite meet the definition because players come from varied neighborhoods but it's close.
I never knew how popular pickleball had gotten until my parents started going out and playing twice a week, even going without the couple of friends they initially started playing with! And you're absolutely right, it's definitely becoming popular as more than just some recreational exercise, it's becoming a social gathering, albeit not with our immediate community, they have to drive pretty far since there's no pickleball courts near us, but I can tell they really enjoy mingling with everyone that shows up
Never heard of pickle ball. That posed a problem, all I could think of was 'court'. Why would anyone would be interested in court proceedings where you can't even open your mouth... So what is pickleball?
@@Paul_C in my own words, it's kind of low energy, convoluted tennis? With some strange rules and terminology, it's worth looking up like a clip of "professional pickleball" I think lol
A way to judge a quality of a "third place" is: do you feel comfortable hanging out there alone? Are you allowed to stay for a long time? Introverts often feel very uncomfortable in places where they cannot just be left alone and spend their time there.
This is also an issue with online shopping from giants like Amazon beating out some third places. In the trading card game community (magic the gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokémon TCG, etc.), there is a whole campaign to support your local card game store because if they can't get business, then they can't stay open and then everyone loses the third place and local opportunities to play the card games.
Bikes are similar, it's a bit different because the third place for bikes is basically just outside, broadly, but cyclists really need a good place for advice and short-notice parts, and that's what the LBS(local Bike Shop) are for
I wouldn't say amazons is beating any of those third places, amazon is useful in a pinch but it is quite overpriced for nearly everything especially for hobby stuff. It is more specialized online small retailer that are beating those places, maybe it is different in the US but that's how it is where I live, it is not exactly megacorp that are closing Hobby shop, you still have the same problem though. But third places don't have to be a shop, my local wargame/roleplaying hangout, is just a normal club in a community center. Local government can very easily encourage the creation of third place by allowing citizen to use the community center and to create club using those community center.
@@linuxman7777 I mean, the car and the Stroad reinforce each other, but you're right that the effects of online shopping and suburban sprawl also reinforce each other.
@@linuxman7777 He doesn't attack the suburbanites, he attacks the system that creates the suburbs and how it forms and shapes the behavior and thinking patterns of the people who (are forced) to live in them.
@@linuxman7777 Hard disagree on that Big Box store suffer in Europe those past 2 decades, to the point corporation started leaning back into proximity commerce, and convenience store. Specialized store are still somewhat declining but mainly because now many small shop compete for larger area through online retail, but it is hardly making city desolate, and some commerce can't just be done online. You seem to forget that a large part of that economics that encourage suburbanization is government aid and legislation.
I just want to really thank this Channel for introducing me to Urban planning. It incited a passion I didn't know I had and now my career path is set on becoming an Urban planner. Because of this channel I actually developed an idea of what to do for my future and what kind of degree to do, and it turned out that all my A levels supported following that path. So yeah, thanks a bunch.
One of my favorite memories from visiting a third place was when I was traveling alone in Amsterdam. I stayed in a hostel outside of the city and walked to the local pub. This group of people came in, we started chatting, and they invited me to the Sisqo concert that they were heading to (in 2018). It was so spontaneous and amazing and I will never forget the kindness of those people and seeing The Thong Song performed live!
I worked as a server for seven years (in Norway, Sweden and Denmark) in my thirties. The reason I did it for so long was mostly for the pure joy of interacting with my guest, butting in to their conversations and gaining friends along the way. Fun things happened every day and I stayed in that profession six years longer than I had planned. Day dream of going back every once in a while 😌Thing is, I went to joinery school and ran a furniture making business and later studied Economics, Statistics and Math at a pretty reputable university. So it's not like I lack options. But being a server was just so much fun. I now realised that was because it was like exercising while socializing at a great third place, and getting paid for it. No wonder I loved it so much... 🥰
The lack of third places and the consequent need of recreating them in your own house means that you need bigger houses and spend a lot more money, for instance if you don't have a gym nearby you would need to buy exercise machines and put them in your basement, or to build a bar just to hangout with friends, or taking this a bit further, to buy a car because that's the only option of efficiently moving around the city. So I imagine this makes that a lot of people that live in suburbia cannot imagine living in an appartment half the size of their home, because they are used to buy the appropriate things if they want to do stuff.
The bit about being a teenager hit me. I haven't been one for over 20 years, but I do remember what adults were like to me then. It was like no one wanted you around. Your very existence was a problem to manage. It's even worse today. One on the hand, kids get flack for always laying around the house in front of a screen. "Go outside and play!" Well, if you can't drive, if your friends all live too far away to walk (provided it's safe enough to walk), and no one will drive you, then there's not much reason to venture out. If you do anyway because your mother kicked you out because she's tired of hearing bitch about how bored you are, or listening to you yell at the TV because you're stuck at a difficult spot in your game, or maybe she just wants some time alone because God knows about the only time she gets to herself anymore is when she's sitting on the pot, then people don't like you loitering around as you mentioned. The malls increasingly don't want you around. I remember when there used to be a lot of resistance to things like skate parks, skateboarding, rollerblading, even sometimes biking. "Don't do that here! Go somewhere else! I'm calling the caps. Why don't you get off your lazy butts and get a job?" As a snotty young man, I might have said something like, "Why don't you go f*ck your mother with something hard and sandpapery?" It's infuriating! Even then, society seemed afraid of its kids and could be really unfeeling towards them, especially teenagers. There was little recognition of them as people who had needs, like needing downtime, a place to go, the need to socialize regularly. If you ain't spending money or working, get out! How do you expect kids to become well adjusted in this environment? In some fundamental ways, the US is exceedingly antisocial and overly materialistic. You exist to work and consume. If you can't do that, you have no value or place in this world.
A problem with having a cafe/restaurant as a third place is cost. I live very near to the place in Delft shown at 2:55. Although it’s very nice, it’s too expensive to really function as a regular meeting hub. I would like to see some more picnic tables and benches outside that are free to use. (Although I cannot really complain, given how nice Delft is overall.)
Here in brazil we were too influenced by the US, and I miss a lot the neighbourhood which I did my college(in another town) lots of third places, is a city district that was an extension of the campus. Now I moved to do a job, in a way cheaper region but it's a suburban hell. And ofc the college district is insanely expensive to live in, so everybody leaves there after graduation. Your channel is an inspiration for me and everybody I told about it
I've seen firsthand the benefits of a third place when I moved to a college campus as a student. The whole campus is essentially a third place, and I've seen my friends more often on campus via just running into them than I ever did in high school. It's strengthened my relationships with all my friends, and I've made new ones through just hanging out in public places on campus.
My local corner Taco shop next to 7-11 opened up a bar next door as part of the restaurant. I always wanted to tell the owner "Are you trying to create a local bar here in our neighborhood?! Because if you are, that is so awesome!" Shortly after they opened, I went there less than 1 month before lockdown. It was exactly like you said. I chatted with some neighborhood locals I hadn't met before. We felt like we had something in common since we lived in the same area! Now that I have a new ebike, I can be there in 5 minutes. I popped over there for lunch last week but hope to make it an evening hang out too. The point is everyone should be able to have a corner market (ideally better than a 7-11) and local bar!
Always enjoy a Not Just Bikes video, and as a New Yorker, every one of them makes me more gratified that I live here in a giant Metropolis rather than anywhere else
You could also argue that the decline of the third space in America has also contributed to the growing polarity and lack of empathy reflected in local and national politics. It's easier to be callous towards someone you rarely meet or to have unchallenged views when you are surrounded by people of your own socioeconomic background. Great commentary and analysis.
My beautiful city Groningen @ 11:01. Lived exactly on that location when I was a student. 🎉 Currently living outside the city in a village but it has indeed an impact on social life. I need to make a conscious decision to go to those places (luckily I can easily go there by a frequent bus connection) - and our life has changed now that we have a young kid which causes other issues - but still. Thanks for the insights. I think everybody deserves a good third place. And… not being able to hang out in a park? Why would you forbid that? That is the whole reason why you would have one anyway? Crazy Americans.
Your comment and the video made me realise how this could also explain why "outsiders"/people from the city often have trouble with properly integrating when they move to the rural towns here in the Netherlands. I live in Groningen as well, but I was mostly raised in a small town in another province. I've never really felt "at home" over there. People were overall nice to me and some knew me by name, but the fact that there were not as many third places made it harder to actually connect with people. There were a small amount of bars that were mostly aimed at the not-so-open-to-outsiders locals. The music that was played over there wasn't something most non-rural people would enjoy. There were a few other third places like a pool (only in the summer), but that was about it. When it's a nice summerday most people from the town often either relax in their own private gardens or go somewhere with family/friends. The pool is one of the few places to actually meet people. But in Groningen it is way different. Most people don't have a garden/balcony or it is too small to hang out. So they go to the park, like the Noorderplantsoen or the Stadspark. There are also way more bars/restaurants to choose from, so the chance of finding something you like is way larger. Same goes for the variety and frequency of parties. It's so much easier to meet people here and that fact made a huge impact on my life.
@@jarnobot I really get that. Im alsso from a rural place now going to Groningen and there is such a different vibe there than in my hometown and there is so much more to do. As someone who does not go to church pretty much all there is to do in my hometown is going to our community center (for as far as that still exists after municipal budget cuts) and the pool a few villages away, but that's it really. While in Groningen there are so many places to go to and meet people. The Starbucks in the University Library, The Forum, The Vismarkt and The Grote Markt, the parks, the list goes on. Really cool as someone who is acustomed to pretty much nothing XD
For many people like myself do to the lack of physical 3rd places around us, online Videogames like VRchat have become substitute's. The closest thing to feeling like you actually are somewhere else. Somewhere you can socialize that isn't work or home.
Even videogames are trying to kill that though, half the reason I still play TF2 is because I can still join the same community servers. CoD and Battlefield used to have that as well but killed it in favor of the matchmaking machine.
Because of this channel, I pushed really hard to find a place in the 5th district of Budapest because it is the closest to a mixed-use, walkable area here. I can't live without the benefits ever again. Every shop I need is within a 10 minute walk (most are just a stroll down the street). We are surrounded by amazing restaurants, cafes and bars. There are tons of cool, locally owned shops that are niche and fun. Its funny because I have been living here nearly a decade and I thought I knew the city so well, but now that I walk past all these places every day, I feel like I am exploring and getting to know my extremely local area. Thanks NJB, your videos helped us choose the right place and made our lives better!
Loved this video! Saw it on Nebula first. From the time I've spent in Europe or older American downtowns, I've come to realize that for me, this third place concept is what makes them so special. The cafes, the walkable streets, the public spaces, the "outdoor living room" is what we all need, especially in our hyper-individualistic society. It is something that cannot be totally replaced by online media. The human interaction and interrelations that happen in the third place shape us profoundly. It's a special thing that you don't realize that you're missing until you experience it.
5:50 The concept that literally as you say, "Hanging out", is somehow illegal in America is mind blowing as a European. I'm 26 now, and some of my best memories in life was from around age 12-16 where you were an independent teenager, could do pretty much anything you wanted with no responsibility, and "loitering" when your friends. Hanging out for hours outside the grocery store with a coke and a GameBoy, meeting on the bench at the school in the weekends and talking, getting an icecream and sitting for hours at the mall, just enjoying being out and most importantly independent from your parents.
Here in the UK, American style car dependant development is still becoming more popular... And every year (even pre COVID) we have had reports of record numbers of pubs closing. Never thought there might be causation between those 2 things... Rather than just correlation
It's more to do with beers being £4/5 a pint. Buy 3 pints and you've spent £10-15 which is enough to buy 10 cans. Outside of city centres the only places that survive tend to be those that do food where you can take the family. The suburban flat roofed pub that only does beer and knuckle sandwiches is pretty much long gone.
@@MultiMidden Exactly. The third space expects you to drop money. Its $7 coffees and $9 beer night in America now. NO thank you. I don't want to live in a cramped apartment "downtown" that makes me go insane that I feel I can't spend more than 1-2 hours in. That's why I live exactly the opposite of this clown in a nice house in the suburbs. I drink cheaply by myself. I've met the public, and they are trash...........
Hmmm. This year has been REALLY bad for pubs some that have been open for centuries. Though culturally they are still important since where else is better to watch the football?
One of the reasons I love living in Helsinki is that our unique third place is local saunas, chief among them being Sompasauna---a community run, free option right on the water. Sompasauna already deals with headaches from Helsinki's zoning as it was forced to move over a year ago, I can only imagine how much a similar space would struggle in North America.
Spaces like this are so good. I work in a train station pub and it's always so nice talking about random stuff with the regulars who stop by to chat and have a beer after their work.
Videogames face a similar problem. Servers used to be fixed addresses where you could meet the local crowd of varying skill and make friends. Now most games are matchmaking-based, so the skill is equal-ish and you never see anyone twice, unless you explicitly friend them (
I totally agree about the barbershop. I moved to a new city about three months ago and the barbershop is the only place I've had conversations with strangers.
When I was graduating high school I was eager to leave out town and move to a major city in California. While I enjoyed the city it was hard getting around driving. When I move back to my my town I decided to give the local bar a try. I started getting to know more people from the community. The whole street had small businesses that were within walking distance…
Third places are great but it needs to be said: even in walkable cities not everyone has an equal acces to them. I live with my partner in the city and we both have very small salaries. We often struggle to get by so going for a drink at a local bar or hanging out at a cafe is basically off limits. The two nearest park have been my "third places" for the time that I've lived here. I'm a bit of a urban sketcher so that's a nice spot to hang around and do just that (often sparks nice conversations as well). In the summer it's also nice to go there for a picnic with friends. I think it would be neat if there were more places that could act as third places while being free as well.
Dankzij je video’s ben ik als rij-instructeur mijn land en met name de infrastructuur meer gaan waarderen en beveel ik mijn leerlingen regering aan bepaalde video’s te bekijken ter educatie. Blijf vooral mooie content maken.👍🏻
The problem of dwindling places for unplanned and unfiltered socializing has bugged me for long. I'd like to add that the sizes of apartments add to the problem, since they are made for a small family and nothing else. The few places we have in Stockholm catering to those who want to share living space with other adults are very popular, with long waiting lists. We have designed our societies around the need of those who have, with no regards to secondary effects. Meaning many are now lonely - especially if you're odd or old or sick or poor or whatever. Also ties nicely into the car thing. I hate cars with such a fervor. Frothing at the mouth hate them. It's out of hand. But your videos are sooo soothing to my soul. To me, this one was one of your best. Kudos!
The best replacement for third places in cities that don't favour them are clubs. They fulfill the same role, but the participants don't necessarily need to be local and scheduled club evenings take away the need for spontaneity. Signing up to a club that interests you is also the single best advice for making new friends after you're out of school. They work even better when they're "proper" third places. Over here in Austria almost every town has a church, a volunteer firefighter unit, a brass band, the local political parties, and sometimes a hunting/shooting club, which together are the backbone of rural social life. I think this is part of why religion is so important to rural Americans, church is pretty much their only third place, even when they have to drive there.
My neighbors are trying to kill the third places in my neighborhood in San Antonio. We have tons of them but there is a group about 1/3 of the people who live here who absolutely hate them and that 1/3 is VERY loud.
I remember going to Victoria and visiting a diner there, and being befuddled by the host who would interact with me and my buddy during our conversation - by interjecting their opinion or contributing their own experiences. This is in stark contrast to the chain "third place" social house placed on the main road that my suburban enclave connects to, at that place there is no typical connection to staff outside of transaction and I'm separated from other people by partitions in assigned seating. There is an expectation at these suburban social houses to get in, pay and get out.
The thing that always bugs me is that these walkable places are the ones where most people want to live, but because there are so few of them, living in one is prohibitively expensive for most people, so they don't even think about living in one. Why developers have not figured this out...I have no answer for.
A lot of times it's not just the developers. It's the people on the town or city council who go into fits when they see a dense, walkable development being considered. This video sums it up great: th-cam.com/video/XBCNJQe6_ZQ/w-d-xo.html
@@danielkelly2210 It's also important to consider that the developer is done once the place is built. If they can just build some houses or apartments and get out they're fine with that. Even if they develop a mixed use location they typically have nothing to do with the operations of the businesses once it's complete.
Although tbh "Third Places" are also being destroyed in large cities too. Modern condos (large soul-less glass buildings) are popping up in cities everywhere. Think Hudson Yards in Manhattan or basically all of Toronto. These new developments are basically replacing smaller mom and pop businesses and often replace the fruit stand, the local pub, in favour of a franchised business or a medical office or a pharmacy.
There really needs to be a requirement for ground floor retail spaces on such structures. Honestly they make financial sense too, but "aesthetic" or other 'concerns' limit them.
The best I can do for a 3rd place is Discord - but even then it is usually people I know or have something in common with. I'd love for there to be small grocers, cafes, pubs in my neighborhood - which admittedly is better than most but still very isolating.
This is exactly why I like living in cities rather than suburbs. When my area flooded recently, I felt super connected to all my neighbours. Nobody could leave the area and only one cafe was left open so you get to know everyone! Anyway, my Aunty works for the council in my area and says that they require a certain amount of green spaces per Capita in high density areas. I thought that was great considering people in small units don't usually have backyards
Growing up in Ireland in the 70s and 80s, North America was soooooo attractive. When I finally went there in 93 (Vancouver + Seattle) I was soooo disappointed. No local pubs and few communal areas, shitty public transport systems and total car dependence. It is something we take for granted here and cannot do without.
I ended up at a local in Amsterdam when I visited on vacation. I went there with a group I met on a canal cruise, on recommendation from a couple of them who went for lunch and thought the owner was really nice. And this was a true local, like just a corner bar most tourists wouldn't go. Like it was poker night and most people were locals playing poker. Which made it incredibly wild when we set up a table outside the bar, I look through the window, and sitting there was someone who I had met at my hostel in Brussels only a couple days before!
In addition to regulation, a second hurdle we face trying to reintroduce these places is economic. The London local being converted to housing is telling. I work as a planner in a city where residential is so much more profitable than any other land use. If given the choice, our developers would never build mixed use, and they would convert all of our existing commercial sites to strictly residential to boot. So it isn't enough to simply stop regulating these place out of our neighbourhoods, in a lot of cases we now need to regulate them in.
Thank you so much for adding references and further readings. I am sociology student in my masters focussing on livable city design and will certainly use this concept of third places in an upcoming paper. Thank you!
Another great video! I think it’s also important to note that the isolation and exclusivity are built into suburbs on purpose. Suburbs were/are built for a specific demographic in mind with the goal of keeping others out. And for that group it’s often seen as a pro. They don’t want to interact with people from different socieoecononic backgrounds than them. They don’t want to share public spaces with them. And they are willing to become dependent on cars in order to “get away” from them. That’s their goal. It’s not an accident.
I love the message of this video. You do great work on your channel. I'm one of those fortunate ones in Canada who happens to live in a very walkable pre-war neighbourhood with homes close to services, transit, and common spaces, and I never really appreciated it until I started watching your videos recently. I can appreciate it now, and I tell all the folks I know who were lured into brand new cookie-cutter suburbs all about your videos. Thanks for your insights and keep it up!
I live in a car dependent rural area, all my considerable life here, and it's gone from a farming community to a commuter community. I now take the bus into town once a week just to be able to wander around and socialise with strangers. I love my garden and the space around me but I miss the sense of community we had when several people would just drop in over the course of a day, and the highlight was the Saturday livestock auction, which is now long gone.
A thought: Can a good public commute be a third place? I am reminded of my daily commute as a student, taking the train from the outskirts of Montreal island to the subway. The trip was a good hour in length, but was relaxing as seating was rather large and arranged in booths, so to speak. We would often see the same regulars, and sometimes spark conversations with them - especially if they were classmates. Sometimes we would see our professors there and chat with them. Small dramas would also unfold - like the time the conductor had wake up the regulars who napped (their stop was close), or when a lovers quarrel broke out, or the time the train stopped to eject a passenger who was smearing his feces all over a political advertising sign. I imagine that some of the more relaxing, high quality commutes (such as the authors experience in Switzerland) may be more condusive to this type of behaviour? Great video.
Third places may require regular cash payouts and excess caloric intake (cafes, bars), but the balance with mental well-being is a compelling component. Even in my walkable neighborhood I don't go "hang out" at a cafe. I do see some people in my neighborhood if we pass each other on the street, but the culture of the third place is essentially extinct. In North America it's also been snuffed out for parents by excessive fears for their children's safety (see other NJB video) and the overprogramming that leads to some families literally giving up on parental socialization until their kids move out. PS Would love to see a video on urban planning for large, multi-generational families in dense urban areas. With the small size and high cost of condos in Canada, there's no way for families to afford to make an urban choice.
I second that bleurgh regarding Wetherspoons! It's even getting hard to socialise in places like pubs - and it's becoming much more ingrained not to talk to someone you don't know if you haven't already met them online.
for the last few summers, my neighbourhood in montreal (verdun) has been turning its 1.6km main street into a pedestrian zone. it really brings people together. tons of space to just exist, play pétanque, people watch, meet with local councillors.
I hung out in and then worked at my local in Calgary. I moved from Calgary about 15 years ago but still know everyone when I go home for a visit. It is part of many people's stories (including many from outside of the neighbourhood). It is a huge part of who I am and was very important. I live in the US now and there is not a comparable pub in my city. I do have a series of coffee shops where I may find friends and community but it is not the same. I lived in the Beltline in Calgary and live just outside of the core in my current city. I am also an outlier in that I walk or cycle everywhere - trying to create it for myself!
Go to go.nebula.tv/notjustbikes to get a discounted subscription to Nebula (and support this channel, too)!
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I would love to subscribe, but I don't have a credit card (quite normal for Dutch ppl), and I'm not getting one just for this...
Please get them to accept more than just credit cards... Not everyone lives in the US.
It’s crazy how cheap it is!
@@zyansheep Dont recognise that, though I do recognise the street before it as it is a place I walk through very often :)
Third spaces can take many forms. Religion, Sports clubs & Night school are classic Third Spaces.
Its a toss up on the net who came first between communities like the well, bix/cix, IRC & MUD's & MOO's but they quickly evolved into second life, MMORG's etc
All virtual pub spaces where people meet people regularly & become friends. Back in the 90's lots of people were on LiveJournal, but I had a great community that I played Unreal Fortress with (and I miss all of you if your reading this).
These days I hang out of esoteric TH-cam Communities like the Guitar Geeks even when I don't even play!
Its really annoying Standard Management (the people behind Nebula) don't have an Xbox app but Curiosity Stream do. I pay for both either way even if can't watch Nebula because its a silly price
this is probably why a lot of americans remember their college & university years so fondly. It's a campus full of third places with towns popping up around them where you can go hang out. it's probably the biggest contributing factor in why people say you learn to define yourself during those years
Somebody went on a forum once and said, "How do I make friends?" And the best response I heard basically said that you need to become a "regular" somewhere. Go to the same coffee place every Tuesday, or the gym every Thursday night, or whatever, and you'll recognize other 'regulars' and staff members and will be immediately easier to break the ice with them and create a friendship from a common interest. Some of the best advice I've ever heard, but is increasingly difficult to do when you have to drive everywhere all the time.
Yeah I used to go the gym every Thursday night by walking there
Said no one ever
I go to the gym by bike often. The ride there is a good warm up and the ride back is a good cooldown
@@kupokraft3685 Yea that's kind of the problem. I bike to my gym most Fridays, more people should. You're going for cardio anyway might as well eliminate your commuting time by making it part of the workout.
@@JasonSleiman4thewin Similar experience, especially since the ride there is about 80% uphill and 10% down, and the way home is the reverse
Where I live the gym is certainly close enough to bike to but the infrastructure does not make it safe enough
I think something that's critical to the 3rd place is that there needs to be an option where you can just exist without someone trying to extract value from you. Cafes and Pubs are great and all, but that doesn't work for those with low or no income. We also need parks, libraries, community centres, museums and art galleries.
Just wanted to say that this channel literally made my life better. We were looking for a property because my wife was expecting. Coming from small commy block apartment it is customary around here to move to the suburbs into a brand new house becoming part of cardependent nightmare. Instead, convinced by the arguments in these videos we moved in a modern apartament building close to the city center. The price was about the same, we lost the backyard but gained all the advantages described here. I never been so happy in my entire life. Thank you!
I'm glad you found such a good situation for yourself! Hope all the best for you and your family 😁
@@valval4145 Thank you! All the best to you too!
In what part of the world do you live, if I may ask?
dont need backyard when entire neighbourhood is :D
@@VideoDotGoogleDotCom eastern Europe, a city w/ a population of 300.000
An important addition to the mall discussion: my local mall also implemented a rule recently where nobody under 18 is allowed to go inside the mall without a parent or guardian after 3pm. It's meant to deter underage shoplifters and vandals, but I think all it does is further narrow down what suburban teenagers are allowed to do. No wonder they just stay online all the time...
Also reduces the custom of the mall over the long term, as those under 18 will probably just shop online, then keep that habit into adulthood, resulting in the mall closing. Dose Elon Musk own/run that mall with such a "concept" of a brain fart?
In all fairness, a lot of pubs and alcohol serving third places will have the same issue. But it's a good point!
@@Snowshowslow Which can be easily dealt with if the the teenager is honest about their age and the personnell is prepared to ask.
Though some places is later in the evening maybe not what a teenager should experience.
And what`s the reaction of the teenagers? Do they now demonstrate each day from 4 till 6 on the mall parking lot against that really stupid rule or do they just take it?
If tens of millions kids can skip school and demonstrate for better policies regarding climate change each Friday, I am sure that something that is affecting them right now and directly should be even more motivating to get on the street and stick it to the man.
@@atomicsmith Counter question: Which industries did Elon disrupt? His companies did invent a worse train, a worse tunnel boring machine, some decently working solar-tech, a car full of consumer electronics and a satellite network which is risking to end all space travel for the rest of mankind's exitance and seems to rely on subsidies from Pentagon and White House.
I am not sure if this is the kind of disruption anyone should aim for. But sure, he made a lot of money with holding is stock after getting kicked out as CEO and watching how others build up PayPal. His parents really invested their money well. ;-)
Nothing had been disruptive so far and Tesla's stock only makes Elon the riches man on earth because it has the potential to maybe be disruptive. Or not, that Stock can lose half it's worth in like a day apparently when people take their money and run. Sounds more like Bitcoin than Apple stocks from an investment perspective.
I feel a huge amount of social/political divide in the US is driven by the fact that everyone lives almost completely isolated lives at home with just immediate family, privately in their car to and from work, privately at work in a cubicle or desk. And as you point out, most people and their immediate neighbors tend to be of similar socioeconomic background. We feel separated, because we are.
Some of the most fascinating conversations I've had have been in pubs or restaurants in Europe where I've met locals or other travelers. We talked late into the night having great food and drinks. Try chatting all night with strangers at your local Applebee's in a suburban area and you'll probably get kicked out for being a weirdo.
I wish moving weren't so hard. I'm so sick of stroads and strip malls.
Everyone?
Or they're just assholes to each other in general.
The third place sounds a lot like what college campus life is like, a series of small places where spontanous meetings between different people can occur.
And surprise surprise, many campuses are the only place in the city with relatively dense housing and walkable amenities.
Neighbours not trusting each other in the suburbs is so common they've made horror movies about it.
Probably a reason why we Americans loved college/university so much and find it hard to recapture that level of social activity afterwards: college campuses & college towns are *full* of third places where you bump into friends & acquaintances
The concept of "no loitering" laws seems completely insane to me, even more so if it applies to places like a public park. Why on earth even have a public park if people are not supposed to spend time there? WTF, America?
Earlier this year I had a conversation with my mom where I said that I felt like I lived in a tunnel. The office was on one side, and my apartment was on the other. What I was describing, without knowing it, was the lack of a third place.
Used to work at Starbucks. In theory they say they want to make their stores into "third places", but in reality its mostly feel good corporate crap. The idea worked out ok at the location I worked at because its in a relatively small commercial area surrounded by residential (all single family homes mind you but the walking distances aren't prohibitive), even with that most people still drove there so the small parking lot was always a mess. If they were really committed to recreating third places, why did they reduce seating when they renovated the store? Why were they frequently trying to reduce the amount of patio furniture? And the most telling, why are they slowly shutting down cafe stores like the one I worked at in favor of replacing them with drive thru's. Sorry, bit of a rant but your video really put things into context.
Absolutely. The one I used to go to all the time switched to really dark decor, black everywhere with migraine-friendly unshielded bright lights. Also the seats were all swapped into hard wood, no couch or cushioned seats. I figured they were trying to encourage fast turnover due to pain if nothing else lol.
What killed Starbucks was when every table was taken up with someone on their computers on the internet.
There was a discussion about my city a while back and someone said " is built for exclusively consumers and employees, there's no room to just... be human" and I agreed, of course I did because I could FEEL it, but I could never explain why I felt the way I did. This video just put those feelings into words. My city feels like this empty capital serving husk BECAUSE there are no third places. We exist to work and consume, and like the woman earlier said, there just isn't any room to live! Thanks NJB, for taking ideas and emotions we've always had and putting them into words and arguments we can use.
@@linuxman7777 japan known for its lack of cafes lmao
Lately I've been talking about this a lot about my city as well! Some of the specific areas retain some aspect of this but the downtown core is hostile to people just being human there. If you aren't an office worker who commutes in or a consumer going to a fancy bar or event, you're not going to find much hospitality, let alone a public restroom...
@@linuxman7777 I'm a little bit confused by this. What about Mister Donuts and the little bakeries and delis? When I studied abroad (in Tohoku) there was a reading room in one of the bookstores where you could study or chat with your friends. Little places like that. Especially the izakaya, in more rural areas the locals would say hi to each other even if you weren't at their table. Bars of course, and the small soba shops that are set up with bar stools around a central counter. Maybe in Tokyo there's more pressure for high turnover on a table, so they don't let you hang out, I wouldn't know. But in smaller cities you can chill at a Mister Donuts and study all day. You're right there's not a lot of sidewalk patios for outside eating, but there's still third places I'd say.
@@linuxman7777 Its not due to capitalism. Look at what remains of the neighborhoods of the USSR. Masses of apartment complexes with nothing around but maybe a small playground for children. Emphasis on small. Its a problem inherent in all new city planning styles developed in the 20th and 21st century.
@@linuxman7777 what are you talking about? There's a lot of izakaya in Japan
I don’t like to drink and every weekend I think to myself, “I wish the cafe was open right now.” We need more social spaces after hours not centered on drinking or spending money
The closest to that is a park.Other than that I don't there will ever be a place indoors aside from a gym or recreation center past midnight where you don't need to spend money.
In Denmark we are currently experimenting with keeping libraries open after the employees has left. We use our library cards to get in, so they know who has been there. I don't think I've found one open past midnight, but several of them gets really close.
in latinoamerican countries cyber cafés were really popular, specially among younger ppl, you still need to pay, but it was really cheap and ppl just hung out there watching other playing or just talking and going to places after.
Or religion
Wait .. the cafes are closed during the weekend? Wouldn't that be the best time to be open?
I've always subconsciously felt a lot of what's been described in this video, but I've never heard it put so eloquently. If I want to go out for drinks with friends I don't want to fight to find parking, probably pay $8-10 for it, limit myself to 1-2 drinks, try to remember where I parked, then drive 30 minutes home. Community is missing in North America and it's pretty essential for our wellbeing.
American here, lack of Third Place honestly really badly effects kids and teenagers. Most the time when kids or teens see other kids or teens, it is at school, where you get 8 hours of class time (when you stop talking unless its a group project) and then 30 minutes of lunch. The lunch time is basically when you hang out with friends, and big chance you don't live near each other, and mom and dad aren't always going to be there too (or want too) drive their kids all the time to the other persons house to hang out. So its taken away both the ability for us to make IRL friends for the most part, and for us to hang out IRL since kids, and most teens (unless you're one of those 16 year olds who has a car) can't drive. I feel this has made us very introverted, as who seek some more of socialization, because we're humans, so the internet is basically our only place we can, but you don't see that person on the internet, or shack their hand, go to a movie, or have a cup of coffee with. It's just not the same.
There needs to be more places for kids to hang out and meet other kids with similar interests. Places like game rooms, arcades, gyms, parks with ball fields and outdoor games, maker spaces and hobby shops. Places where they can go to learn new things too. When I was young there was a slot car racing place that many kids went to. Good healthy fun. It would also be great if more retired people like myself had places where we could interface with kids to teach them things like photography or woodworking or fixing and building bikes.
"Loitering" is mostly used to chase homeless people away, because the city in question does not want to confront its housing crisis.
nor its mental health crisis.
It's to social problems what jaywalking is to traffic problems. Save yourself some work and money on the backs of the weakest member of society.
Also teenagers because good forbid teenagers have someplace to hang out, they aren't always causing trouble. Also we need to bring back mental hospitals, mentally ill people don't want housing, but they need to be some place where they will be taken care of.
@@lainiwakura1776 exactly, at least to me it seems teenagers these days are no where near as malicious as we were when I was a teenager
@@lainiwakura1776 Here in the Netherlands we recognise 2 groups, "hang jongeren", teenagers hanging out, & "hang ouderen", pensioners (mostly men) hanging out. Lonely people need to meet somewhere cheap.
I think you can talk about how important a 3rd place can be for children some more.
I always wished to hand out with people outside of school and maybe meet people other than my classmates and I feel like it would have benefited my current social standing.
In cartoons you also see these places sometimes and I always wanted to experience them. I think the best example is Craig of the creek where the creek is a place the kids go to after school to play around.
The fact that kids today might only go to school and nowhere else is probably a big factor in loneliness,depression, introversion and video game/social media addiction.
That is because kids were raised to not trust anyone not even neighbors and also people see kids who go out alone and will call the police and blame the parents.Suburbia is not considered an environment safe for kids anymore.That is why dense walkable areas are much better for families.
When I was a kid, in the Sixties, anytime I went outside the house, I would find a lot of other kids of my age in the street, no matter what the weather was like. We were all of large (but relatively poor) families. Nowadays, we have smaller (and wealthier) families. When I took my kid outside, some 20 years ago, to a nearby playground, there was NOBODY there. That was sad, tbh. In my time, the whole world was our playground, and, as we got older, we explored further. In the Eighties, I spent a few years in Africa - it felt like I'd traveled back in time to my childhood. Just goes to show, progress is not always progress.
So, yeah, I can understand why kids these days get addicted to their smartphones and social media. They are exploring a wholly different world.
Your social standing? Do you mean your social skills? Otherwise, I don't see how you could've become upper-class just by having a 3rd place
@@jasonhaven7170 Social capital is different from money-capital.
@@peterstedman6140 No, social standing is specifically something used by socialites.
Another benefit is reduced political polarization. People are less likely to consider everyone on the other side of the political fence a lunatic trying to destroy their country when they know a few people who vote the other way who are decent, kind, regular people. And they’re less likely to fall into extremist rabbit holes on the internet themselves when they could be down at the pub with real live people instead.
The unfortunate fact is that for a good many people in suburbia, the Third Place is social media.
Don't most revolutionary movements start in pubs?
@@danielmikula1375 yeah this really seems to me like the biggest driving factor in the modern american culture. its hard not to come to believe that its going to lead us into some increasingly dark places.
@@jordrider1917 cafes as well! Also, I'm not certain the original argument holds water seeing as even places that have a strong "Third place" culture (i.e. England, Germany) have large right wing extremist movements.
@@jordrider1917 When lots of regular people can get together and talk about the issues, building a consensus is somewhat easier than when they're shouted at with insanity that no one's around to question.
The bit about organized house parties/barbecues could also use one more bit - organizing and hosting can get _exhausting_ really quick, and after a while, it starts feeling like a chore to set one up, so people slowly stop offering and even _that_ opportunity disappears. (Real) Third Places remove this barrier by being someplace people can just go to.
It is kind of sad that we are losing places like this. It forces us to depend more on the corporation than the common next door neighbor.
And that is the point.
Malls do not want to be third places. Security guards make sure of that. My friends and I were paying customers and I was still almost kicked out for loitering. We ate dinner at the mall and purchased movie tickets. We had a little bit of time to kill between dinner and the movie. My friends decided swing by a couple stores while I chose to sit in a little lounge area and rest my eyes. Security tried to kick me out because you can't sleep in the mall.
If this is what they do to a well dressed, well groomed paying customer just killing a little time between paid activities, I'd hate to know what they do to someone who hasn't or can't spend money there.
A third place I've been using a lot in urban Ottawa is dog parks. In suburban fake London the closest dog park was hidden behind a water treatment plant and basically had to be driven to. The ones I go to in Ottawa are positioned right in the heart of the neighborhood and most actually increase connectivity within the neighborhood by acting as a shortcut between blocks.
Ah, that's great! Yes, a dog park could definitely serve as a third place, if it's accessible to most people nearby without driving. That sounds nice.
I live in urban Ottawa as well. We used to have a really nice dog park right beside my neighbourhood but it was bought out and turned into another neighbourhood unfortunately.
In defense of that Greenway dog park's accessibility; at least it's on one of the few bicycle paths in London. I found London could be reasonably bike friendly if all your destinations are along the river, because the bicycle paths follow it. I'm not sure how easily you can bicycle your dog to the park, perhaps if you had a cargo bike or a trailer?
You will probably will get weird looks though, when you go there but don't have a dog. Then again, you could spice things up by bringing a cat. 😉
@@questioner1596
Dogs can easily run with you on your bike, they can run faster than you can bike. XD
Ive always appreciated how Amtrak trains have the observation car and dining cars that create spontaneous discussion and camaraderie
I am European. Watching your videos is kinda like looking at a crash which is North America. It’s especially sad to her about children there.
Also helps to appreciate and embrace what we got.
Wanna know something I learned while working a co-op contract job at Hyundai HQ Canada? In North America they sell a car called the Venue (idk if they do elsewhere tbh), I was watching sales training videos on all their cars just to familiarize myself with them and the Venue one included the reasoning behind its name. It's called the Venue because in car dependent North America your "Third-place" IS your car, so they named the car the Venue to allude to this. I didn't think much of it back then (mainly because I wasn't watching this channel at the time and I just kinda went "Oh yeah that makes sense for a name") but now after watching this video and realizing that a third place doesn't have to be a car it only adds to list of things I hate about a suburban lifestyle.
Sitting alone in your car for a couple of hours each day, makes your car anything but a third place. Who are you going to meet, except for the occasional bout of road rage when you cut or hit someone?
It’s interesting that Hyundai the manufacturer that makes some of the most bland cars to drive (exceptions being like the genesis but that’s still a poor performance car and the recent stingers which are still mediocre) wants their car to be the third place you WANT to be when they struggle to make cars that build a connection with the road. Idk I might just be a weird Honda guy but it seems strange
"Americans live in their cars"
@@hendman4083 that’s just the reality of the situation. When you’re forced to spend like an hour and up in your car commuting each day your car gets forced into being your third place. It’s depressing
@@synible it’s definitely weird to name your entry level suv that and for that reason. It’ll ride like a cheap car (as it is one) and it’ll have minimal sound deadening so it won’t be a pleasing experience. It’s almost like they played around the fact that having your car forced to be your third place is just a depressing concept.
For the reason they outlined for the name, I’d probably give that kinda name to an ultra-luxury kinda car. If it’s your third place it should be as enjoyable as possible right?
This is fascinating to me as an introvert. I live in a city where there is no shortage of third places (there are 3 cafés in my street alone and a public park just around the corner) but I never go there, I'm always just home. Maybe I should go more often. 🤔
Yes! Become a regular at one of those places
Ease into it by bringing a laptop or a book and just hanging out there by yourself, and eventually get to know people (probably first the people who work there, if it's a cafe)
Do literally what makes you feel at home. Feel lonely? Maybe give it a shot but if you are genuinely happy dont feel forced to as Jason said having those places makes the area better to live in in general.
This is me, exactly.
Nah, just do sports
As someone living just on the rural side of suburban America, I can confirm the lack of a decent third place. The closest I've been to experiencing this is when my highschool orchestra saved up for a class trip to Ireland. Me and a couple other kids were wandering Dublin and popped into a tiny hole in the wall pub for a shepherd's pie and some apple tart. I don't think I'll ever be truly happy until I'm able to frequent a place like that. I think I might move to Ireland once I finish college. I've found a nice school that's close ish to friends and family, and not too expensive, so with luck I can graduate without too much debt, and be free of this hellish country before too many years more.
I always wondered why I loved the historic downtown areas of my state, always wishing I could live there, stay there for longer... it's almost like that tiny square of possible walkability was funner than driving everywhere. Your videos literally made me rethink my entire life in America. So much so that I've completely left the country. I hope for good.
As a non-American raised on TV I thought a common third place for Americans was the local diner. Was so sad when I visited to find out diners are basically now just truck stops. Twin Peaks lied to me!
The place where I grew up was a typical North American suburb but it has a decent little "third place" that I can appreciate a lot more after watching this video. The neighbourhood is a new-ish housing development much like the one at 10:19 but right in the middle of it, within close walking distance to most houses, there is a little strip with a convenience store, a hair salon, a florist, a butcher, and a good casual restaurant/bar. It really isn't much at all, just a tiny island of community life within a sea of detached single family homes, but it makes a huge difference. Sometimes I'll go back there with a few friends and we'll have chance encounters with people I haven't seen in years or we'll just start chatting up and drinking with randoms.
Yet some of my friends who still live there never go to the restaurant/bar right in the middle of their suburb because they like having "more space and freedom" at home. If they do go, they will insist on driving because the 5 - 10 minute walk is too far and they feel embarrassed to be seen walking outside. Then they ask me how I can stand living in the city without a car or a backyard.
I walk in a car-dependent city and the only other people out walking with me are visibly poor. I think it's just classism; people don't want to be seen as poor.
@@cloudyskies5497 not possessing manmade objects than others doesn’t make your own soul poorer from another
I recently came home from a cruise trip in Greece, Italy, and Croatia. The walkable cities, the hospitality, and the warm welcome I felt while I was there made me feel life was worth living again (I’m not suicidal!). But I’m back home in the states returning to the life I have been praying to escape from for a long time… This video demonstrated everything as to why I’m constantly reminded that I DO deserve the life that I have envisioned. Inshallah I will achieve such a life 🙏🏻
As an introvert who grew up in suburbia, the concept of a "third place" has always been foreign to me. Even when I've lived in cities where they were available, I never considered just going out to such a place without a specific reason to be there. Even on learning about them from content like this, the notion remains strange and vaguely intimidating.
Even if we fix the physical infrastructure of "third places" in the US, I wonder how long it will take to rebuild the cultural infrastructure that underpins them. I'll probably never feel comfortable in one without a difficult acclimation period that I don't expect many people to be willing to deal with. There are whole generations where a sizable part of the population has experiences like mine and that won't go away just because these places begin to exist again.
Thanks for making it impossible to unsee poor city planning in my city but also for giving me reason to advocate for better cities. I live in one of the 10 biggest US cities and I'm pretty sure our mayor, who lives the floor above me, is a fan of the channel or at the very least the content and messages it promotes, so our city continues to improve. I went car-free 6 months ago and have no regrets. Thank you NJB!
Hey, if your mayor is on board, that's already a better situation that most North American cities! Good luck!
Engineers of the so called "hustle culture" actually don't want us 'wasting' time in third places. We are supposed to be hustling hard and making them richer, instead. Millions of people who work ridiculously long hours, working two shifts a day, plus a side hustle. They are systemically told that they can't afford a third place. Companies quickly adapted to this trend and they began employing people who would also enjoy being friends while doing work. That's why there's always more chit chat and 'hanging' happening in US workplaces compared with European counterparts. When our lords are seeking answers to decreasing labour productivity, they should keep this in mind. WE ARE BURNING OUT.
In the Netherlands these "3rd places", especially in villages and suburbs, are becoming rarer since the eighties. I grew up in a village with about 4,000 people and four pubs. One has turned into a restaurant, the others are gone. Social interaction between people has changed because of the way we can communicate with one another. The town square lost its meaning.
Think that has predominantly to do with rent prices for businesses. The great 'sell out' and consequently the higher prices for commercial properties made it impossible to establish 'a third place', the rent is simply too high.
That must have been in the south of the Netherlands.
@@jannetteberends8730 No, in the north.
This was especially noticable in eastern germany, where post 1990 a lot of the social structures just vanished from one day to the next because the party was the most important third place, followed by pubs and stores that promptly went out of business once the free market hit
@@fortheloveofmusic860 4000 people and 4 pubs. Pity they are gone.
This reminds me of being broke teens in suburban high school. If you didn't have any money the only place we could "hang out" was the mall. The mall was a terrible place for broke teens to hang out so we usually ended up parked in the car somewhere listening to music till adults chased us away or it was time to go home. Wish we had a third place back then.
As someone who recently moved to a city my problem with this is that for a pub or cafe to be your local you necessarily will have to spend money there. As someone who rarely spends money unnecessarily I often miss out on the benefits you pointed out in this video even while living in a neighborhood with a lot of these options. Free meet up events still end up being my primary means of social interaction.
I also think it’s important to note that urban life is not a silver bullet. If you’re a reserved person in suburbia you’ll likely still be that way in the city. I hoped the move would cure my anxiety around people but so far it hasn’t helped.
This video makes me very much wish I had a third place nearby. The wife and I go for walks every night but there's no established place where people congregate -- we occasionally run into people we recognize but there's no conversation made. And we're just walking up and down the streets of suburbia.
This is why in the UK people will talk to complete strangers with an opening comment regarding the weather.
Someone mentioned dog parks in another comment. If there is one in your neigbourhood, they might even let you in when you don't have a dog. 😉
@@hendman4083 People would probably think I'm hella sketchy if I go into a dog park without a dog talking to people XD
@@fenlinescouser4105 I'm from the US and I wish more people would comment on the weather to me.
I've lived in suburban America my whole life and after living in Japan for the past 4 months, I've really come to realize how horrid American city design is. I live in a small area just outside of Tokyo, its not too busy yet there are still so many businesses and public spaces that I regularly go to. I'm spending the least amount of time inside I ever have in my life, and I'm regularly meeting new people. The thought of stepping out my door and walking to a public space or a restaurant is so normal to me now but I could never even imagine doing something like that in my American hometown
you make the most compelling arguments for "being social" I have ever heard. My whole life I thought all I wanted was isolation, but you're opening my perspective to new ideas.
I grew up in a walkable community, and I came to know a lot of the neighborhood adults because my parents had a "weak tie" to them. The third places in my neighborhood were pizzerias, bagel shops, delis, food specialty shops, and the list goes on and on. I knew just a little bit about a lot of people, and I was known at least by name to people of various ages. As I have lived in the suburbs in my adult life, I have realized that there are pockets of restaurants and bars that are mainly the result of being grandfathered in, which are still the local place, even if the patrons moved elsewhere in town and drive over. All of this is by design to have exclusivity, due in large part of fear of the other. Suburbia was created based on "white flight" from cities, and there is that key selling point of looking clean and safe, which i always envision as places you want to get in and out as efficiently as possible.
"places you want to get in and out as efficiently as possible." i had this thought as well but could never put it into words
This channel is the reason why I visited Denmark for a month to experience a walk-able city and good public transport. I felt the saddest I have felt in a long time when I had to go back to America. This video describes why. I didn't even know this was a thing before I went. Please keep up the videos. You are changing (improving) lives.
There was a very brief period of time in the late 90s and early 00s where internet cafes were a good Third Place. Pop in, play some games, chat with other nerds. It was a great time. I miss it.
One new development in the U.S. = the pickleball courts. One reason why tennis attracts a very different crowd is the social aspect. Pickleball players often sit in a common area while they wait for the next game, which promotes socializing with strangers. Players of all ages and socio-economic groups mingle, though senior citizens predominate. It doesn't quite meet the definition because players come from varied neighborhoods but it's close.
I never knew how popular pickleball had gotten until my parents started going out and playing twice a week, even going without the couple of friends they initially started playing with!
And you're absolutely right, it's definitely becoming popular as more than just some recreational exercise, it's becoming a social gathering, albeit not with our immediate community, they have to drive pretty far since there's no pickleball courts near us, but I can tell they really enjoy mingling with everyone that shows up
Never heard of pickle ball. That posed a problem, all I could think of was 'court'. Why would anyone would be interested in court proceedings where you can't even open your mouth...
So what is pickleball?
@@Paul_C in my own words, it's kind of low energy, convoluted tennis? With some strange rules and terminology, it's worth looking up like a clip of "professional pickleball" I think lol
@@Paul_C A court game played with a hard whiffle type ball and paddles.
Just wait until they monetize it…no good thing lasts in America.
A way to judge a quality of a "third place" is: do you feel comfortable hanging out there alone? Are you allowed to stay for a long time? Introverts often feel very uncomfortable in places where they cannot just be left alone and spend their time there.
You can, you aren't obliged to speak to anyone you don't want to. It's just there if you want to.
This is also an issue with online shopping from giants like Amazon beating out some third places.
In the trading card game community (magic the gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokémon TCG, etc.), there is a whole campaign to support your local card game store because if they can't get business, then they can't stay open and then everyone loses the third place and local opportunities to play the card games.
Bikes are similar, it's a bit different because the third place for bikes is basically just outside, broadly, but cyclists really need a good place for advice and short-notice parts, and that's what the LBS(local Bike Shop) are for
I wouldn't say amazons is beating any of those third places, amazon is useful in a pinch but it is quite overpriced for nearly everything especially for hobby stuff. It is more specialized online small retailer that are beating those places, maybe it is different in the US but that's how it is where I live, it is not exactly megacorp that are closing Hobby shop, you still have the same problem though.
But third places don't have to be a shop, my local wargame/roleplaying hangout, is just a normal club in a community center. Local government can very easily encourage the creation of third place by allowing citizen to use the community center and to create club using those community center.
@@linuxman7777 I mean, the car and the Stroad reinforce each other, but you're right that the effects of online shopping and suburban sprawl also reinforce each other.
@@linuxman7777 He doesn't attack the suburbanites, he attacks the system that creates the suburbs and how it forms and shapes the behavior and thinking patterns of the people who (are forced) to live in them.
@@linuxman7777 Hard disagree on that Big Box store suffer in Europe those past 2 decades, to the point corporation started leaning back into proximity commerce, and convenience store.
Specialized store are still somewhat declining but mainly because now many small shop compete for larger area through online retail, but it is hardly making city desolate, and some commerce can't just be done online.
You seem to forget that a large part of that economics that encourage suburbanization is government aid and legislation.
I just want to really thank this Channel for introducing me to Urban planning. It incited a passion I didn't know I had and now my career path is set on becoming an Urban planner. Because of this channel I actually developed an idea of what to do for my future and what kind of degree to do, and it turned out that all my A levels supported following that path. So yeah, thanks a bunch.
social media wants to be the third place of the modern world, but drives division and anger instead of peace and togetherness
Yep, sad but true 😢
One of my favorite memories from visiting a third place was when I was traveling alone in Amsterdam. I stayed in a hostel outside of the city and walked to the local pub. This group of people came in, we started chatting, and they invited me to the Sisqo concert that they were heading to (in 2018). It was so spontaneous and amazing and I will never forget the kindness of those people and seeing The Thong Song performed live!
I worked as a server for seven years (in Norway, Sweden and Denmark) in my thirties. The reason I did it for so long was mostly for the pure joy of interacting with my guest, butting in to their conversations and gaining friends along the way. Fun things happened every day and I stayed in that profession six years longer than I had planned. Day dream of going back every once in a while 😌Thing is, I went to joinery school and ran a furniture making business and later studied Economics, Statistics and Math at a pretty reputable university. So it's not like I lack options. But being a server was just so much fun. I now realised that was because it was like exercising while socializing at a great third place, and getting paid for it. No wonder I loved it so much... 🥰
The lack of third places and the consequent need of recreating them in your own house means that you need bigger houses and spend a lot more money, for instance if you don't have a gym nearby you would need to buy exercise machines and put them in your basement, or to build a bar just to hangout with friends, or taking this a bit further, to buy a car because that's the only option of efficiently moving around the city.
So I imagine this makes that a lot of people that live in suburbia cannot imagine living in an appartment half the size of their home, because they are used to buy the appropriate things if they want to do stuff.
The bit about being a teenager hit me. I haven't been one for over 20 years, but I do remember what adults were like to me then. It was like no one wanted you around. Your very existence was a problem to manage. It's even worse today. One on the hand, kids get flack for always laying around the house in front of a screen. "Go outside and play!" Well, if you can't drive, if your friends all live too far away to walk (provided it's safe enough to walk), and no one will drive you, then there's not much reason to venture out. If you do anyway because your mother kicked you out because she's tired of hearing bitch about how bored you are, or listening to you yell at the TV because you're stuck at a difficult spot in your game, or maybe she just wants some time alone because God knows about the only time she gets to herself anymore is when she's sitting on the pot, then people don't like you loitering around as you mentioned. The malls increasingly don't want you around. I remember when there used to be a lot of resistance to things like skate parks, skateboarding, rollerblading, even sometimes biking. "Don't do that here! Go somewhere else! I'm calling the caps. Why don't you get off your lazy butts and get a job?" As a snotty young man, I might have said something like, "Why don't you go f*ck your mother with something hard and sandpapery?" It's infuriating! Even then, society seemed afraid of its kids and could be really unfeeling towards them, especially teenagers. There was little recognition of them as people who had needs, like needing downtime, a place to go, the need to socialize regularly. If you ain't spending money or working, get out! How do you expect kids to become well adjusted in this environment? In some fundamental ways, the US is exceedingly antisocial and overly materialistic. You exist to work and consume. If you can't do that, you have no value or place in this world.
Well, now you know.
A problem with having a cafe/restaurant as a third place is cost. I live very near to the place in Delft shown at 2:55. Although it’s very nice, it’s too expensive to really function as a regular meeting hub. I would like to see some more picnic tables and benches outside that are free to use. (Although I cannot really complain, given how nice Delft is overall.)
Here in brazil we were too influenced by the US, and I miss a lot the neighbourhood which I did my college(in another town) lots of third places, is a city district that was an extension of the campus. Now I moved to do a job, in a way cheaper region but it's a suburban hell. And ofc the college district is insanely expensive to live in, so everybody leaves there after graduation. Your channel is an inspiration for me and everybody I told about it
At least you can hang out outside in a park or something. Here, it's freezing outside and there's snow everywhere - and it's not even December yet.
De qual lugar do Brasil vc está falando? Aqui no Rio, no meu bairro tem vários desses "terceiros lugares"
I've seen firsthand the benefits of a third place when I moved to a college campus as a student. The whole campus is essentially a third place, and I've seen my friends more often on campus via just running into them than I ever did in high school. It's strengthened my relationships with all my friends, and I've made new ones through just hanging out in public places on campus.
Watching your videos make me feel really good about my decision to move away from the suburbs to nice and walkable Hoboken, NJ.
I used to shit on NJ, but I was recently in Hoboken, and I must say, it was an awesome town. Really enjoyed walking there.
The only thing i know about Hoboken, NJ is that i used to always get spam calls from there lol
Bugs Bunny: "HoBOken?! I'm dyin', I'm dyin'!" Good cartoon. Obviously, Hoboken has been around for a while. I'll bet it's fun.
My local corner Taco shop next to 7-11 opened up a bar next door as part of the restaurant. I always wanted to tell the owner "Are you trying to create a local bar here in our neighborhood?! Because if you are, that is so awesome!"
Shortly after they opened, I went there less than 1 month before lockdown. It was exactly like you said. I chatted with some neighborhood locals I hadn't met before. We felt like we had something in common since we lived in the same area!
Now that I have a new ebike, I can be there in 5 minutes. I popped over there for lunch last week but hope to make it an evening hang out too. The point is everyone should be able to have a corner market (ideally better than a 7-11) and local bar!
Always enjoy a Not Just Bikes video, and as a New Yorker, every one of them makes me more gratified that I live here in a giant Metropolis rather than anywhere else
I'm jealous, I need to finish my degree so I can move out of suburban stroad hell
Check out other continents. You will thank yourself ( because New York isn't "the greatest city in the world", just the most obnoxious ).
You could also argue that the decline of the third space in America has also contributed to the growing polarity and lack of empathy reflected in local and national politics. It's easier to be callous towards someone you rarely meet or to have unchallenged views when you are surrounded by people of your own socioeconomic background. Great commentary and analysis.
My beautiful city Groningen @ 11:01. Lived exactly on that location when I was a student. 🎉 Currently living outside the city in a village but it has indeed an impact on social life. I need to make a conscious decision to go to those places (luckily I can easily go there by a frequent bus connection) - and our life has changed now that we have a young kid which causes other issues - but still. Thanks for the insights. I think everybody deserves a good third place. And… not being able to hang out in a park? Why would you forbid that? That is the whole reason why you would have one anyway? Crazy Americans.
Hang out in the park? Karen and Kevin from the Home Owners Association want to have a word with you. /s
Your comment and the video made me realise how this could also explain why "outsiders"/people from the city often have trouble with properly integrating when they move to the rural towns here in the Netherlands.
I live in Groningen as well, but I was mostly raised in a small town in another province. I've never really felt "at home" over there. People were overall nice to me and some knew me by name, but the fact that there were not as many third places made it harder to actually connect with people.
There were a small amount of bars that were mostly aimed at the not-so-open-to-outsiders locals. The music that was played over there wasn't something most non-rural people would enjoy.
There were a few other third places like a pool (only in the summer), but that was about it.
When it's a nice summerday most people from the town often either relax in their own private gardens or go somewhere with family/friends. The pool is one of the few places to actually meet people.
But in Groningen it is way different. Most people don't have a garden/balcony or it is too small to hang out. So they go to the park, like the Noorderplantsoen or the Stadspark. There are also way more bars/restaurants to choose from, so the chance of finding something you like is way larger. Same goes for the variety and frequency of parties. It's so much easier to meet people here and that fact made a huge impact on my life.
@@jarnobot I really get that.
Im alsso from a rural place now going to Groningen and there is such a different vibe there than in my hometown and there is so much more to do.
As someone who does not go to church pretty much all there is to do in my hometown is going to our community center (for as far as that still exists after municipal budget cuts) and the pool a few villages away, but that's it really.
While in Groningen there are so many places to go to and meet people. The Starbucks in the University Library, The Forum, The Vismarkt and The Grote Markt, the parks, the list goes on. Really cool as someone who is acustomed to pretty much nothing XD
Lived there too, Coehoornsingel, wonderfull time! I am now in the USA and it hurts how true this video is.
I instantly recognized Groningen too! Lived there in 2011-2012, miss that place so much!
For many people like myself do to the lack of physical 3rd places around us, online Videogames like VRchat have become substitute's.
The closest thing to feeling like you actually are somewhere else.
Somewhere you can socialize that isn't work or home.
Even videogames are trying to kill that though, half the reason I still play TF2 is because I can still join the same community servers. CoD and Battlefield used to have that as well but killed it in favor of the matchmaking machine.
Because of this channel, I pushed really hard to find a place in the 5th district of Budapest because it is the closest to a mixed-use, walkable area here. I can't live without the benefits ever again. Every shop I need is within a 10 minute walk (most are just a stroll down the street). We are surrounded by amazing restaurants, cafes and bars. There are tons of cool, locally owned shops that are niche and fun. Its funny because I have been living here nearly a decade and I thought I knew the city so well, but now that I walk past all these places every day, I feel like I am exploring and getting to know my extremely local area.
Thanks NJB, your videos helped us choose the right place and made our lives better!
Loved this video! Saw it on Nebula first. From the time I've spent in Europe or older American downtowns, I've come to realize that for me, this third place concept is what makes them so special. The cafes, the walkable streets, the public spaces, the "outdoor living room" is what we all need, especially in our hyper-individualistic society. It is something that cannot be totally replaced by online media. The human interaction and interrelations that happen in the third place shape us profoundly. It's a special thing that you don't realize that you're missing until you experience it.
5:50 The concept that literally as you say, "Hanging out", is somehow illegal in America is mind blowing as a European. I'm 26 now, and some of my best memories in life was from around age 12-16 where you were an independent teenager, could do pretty much anything you wanted with no responsibility, and "loitering" when your friends. Hanging out for hours outside the grocery store with a coke and a GameBoy, meeting on the bench at the school in the weekends and talking, getting an icecream and sitting for hours at the mall, just enjoying being out and most importantly independent from your parents.
This. is. everything. thank you for such a well made video describing why socializing in the US is so hard nowadays
Here in the UK, American style car dependant development is still becoming more popular... And every year (even pre COVID) we have had reports of record numbers of pubs closing.
Never thought there might be causation between those 2 things... Rather than just correlation
It's more to do with beers being £4/5 a pint. Buy 3 pints and you've spent £10-15 which is enough to buy 10 cans. Outside of city centres the only places that survive tend to be those that do food where you can take the family. The suburban flat roofed pub that only does beer and knuckle sandwiches is pretty much long gone.
That's really upsetting
@@MultiMidden Exactly. The third space expects you to drop money. Its $7 coffees and $9 beer night in America now. NO thank you. I don't want to live in a cramped apartment "downtown" that makes me go insane that I feel I can't spend more than 1-2 hours in. That's why I live exactly the opposite of this clown in a nice house in the suburbs. I drink cheaply by myself. I've met the public, and they are trash...........
Hmmm.
This year has been REALLY bad for pubs some that have been open for centuries.
Though culturally they are still important since where else is better to watch the football?
One of the reasons I love living in Helsinki is that our unique third place is local saunas, chief among them being Sompasauna---a community run, free option right on the water. Sompasauna already deals with headaches from Helsinki's zoning as it was forced to move over a year ago, I can only imagine how much a similar space would struggle in North America.
I really like Helsinki Central Library near railway station. I think those type of modern public places should be in each big city :)
@@dmytrojds Oodi is also a solid example of a unique third place in Helsinki, totally agree!
I'd love to have a sauna as a third place. Just popping in after work for a quick inexpensive sauna sounds like heaven.
Spaces like this are so good. I work in a train station pub and it's always so nice talking about random stuff with the regulars who stop by to chat and have a beer after their work.
11:11 Delft - my university town and the nicest place I've ever been to! Sitting in the town square really gives you a sense of serenity...
Videogames face a similar problem. Servers used to be fixed addresses where you could meet the local crowd of varying skill and make friends. Now most games are matchmaking-based, so the skill is equal-ish and you never see anyone twice, unless you explicitly friend them (
I totally agree about the barbershop. I moved to a new city about three months ago and the barbershop is the only place I've had conversations with strangers.
Having grown up in hellish suburbia I used to think town squares were an invention for fantasy worlds, the same as magic shops or dragon dens.
When I was graduating high school I was eager to leave out town and move to a major city in California. While I enjoyed the city it was hard getting around driving. When I move back to my my town I decided to give the local bar a try. I started getting to know more people from the community. The whole street had small businesses that were within walking distance…
Third places are great but it needs to be said: even in walkable cities not everyone has an equal acces to them. I live with my partner in the city and we both have very small salaries. We often struggle to get by so going for a drink at a local bar or hanging out at a cafe is basically off limits. The two nearest park have been my "third places" for the time that I've lived here. I'm a bit of a urban sketcher so that's a nice spot to hang around and do just that (often sparks nice conversations as well). In the summer it's also nice to go there for a picnic with friends. I think it would be neat if there were more places that could act as third places while being free as well.
Dankzij je video’s ben ik als rij-instructeur mijn land en met name de infrastructuur meer gaan waarderen en beveel ik mijn leerlingen regering aan bepaalde video’s te bekijken ter educatie.
Blijf vooral mooie content maken.👍🏻
The problem of dwindling places for unplanned and unfiltered socializing has bugged me for long. I'd like to add that the sizes of apartments add to the problem, since they are made for a small family and nothing else. The few places we have in Stockholm catering to those who want to share living space with other adults are very popular, with long waiting lists. We have designed our societies around the need of those who have, with no regards to secondary effects. Meaning many are now lonely - especially if you're odd or old or sick or poor or whatever.
Also ties nicely into the car thing. I hate cars with such a fervor. Frothing at the mouth hate them. It's out of hand. But your videos are sooo soothing to my soul. To me, this one was one of your best. Kudos!
The best replacement for third places in cities that don't favour them are clubs. They fulfill the same role, but the participants don't necessarily need to be local and scheduled club evenings take away the need for spontaneity. Signing up to a club that interests you is also the single best advice for making new friends after you're out of school.
They work even better when they're "proper" third places. Over here in Austria almost every town has a church, a volunteer firefighter unit, a brass band, the local political parties, and sometimes a hunting/shooting club, which together are the backbone of rural social life. I think this is part of why religion is so important to rural Americans, church is pretty much their only third place, even when they have to drive there.
I believe you are correct.
My neighbors are trying to kill the third places in my neighborhood in San Antonio. We have tons of them but there is a group about 1/3 of the people who live here who absolutely hate them and that 1/3 is VERY loud.
Why do I feel that those 1/3 are the newcomers?
Coming from medium town America, third places sound straight up magical
I remember going to Victoria and visiting a diner there, and being befuddled by the host who would interact with me and my buddy during our conversation - by interjecting their opinion or contributing their own experiences. This is in stark contrast to the chain "third place" social house placed on the main road that my suburban enclave connects to, at that place there is no typical connection to staff outside of transaction and I'm separated from other people by partitions in assigned seating. There is an expectation at these suburban social houses to get in, pay and get out.
Now that you say it, it rings a bell with some places that I do not find cosy at all, isolating groups of guests from each other.
The thing that always bugs me is that these walkable places are the ones where most people want to live, but because there are so few of them, living in one is prohibitively expensive for most people, so they don't even think about living in one. Why developers have not figured this out...I have no answer for.
A lot of times it's not just the developers. It's the people on the town or city council who go into fits when they see a dense, walkable development being considered. This video sums it up great: th-cam.com/video/XBCNJQe6_ZQ/w-d-xo.html
@@danielkelly2210 It's also important to consider that the developer is done once the place is built. If they can just build some houses or apartments and get out they're fine with that. Even if they develop a mixed use location they typically have nothing to do with the operations of the businesses once it's complete.
Incredible video as always. We are finally getting a brewery in my neighborhood and my neighbors and I couldn't be more excited.
Watching your videos depresses me as there’s not much I can do without devoting lots of time to fight this kind of stuff
Although tbh "Third Places" are also being destroyed in large cities too. Modern condos (large soul-less glass buildings) are popping up in cities everywhere. Think Hudson Yards in Manhattan or basically all of Toronto. These new developments are basically replacing smaller mom and pop businesses and often replace the fruit stand, the local pub, in favour of a franchised business or a medical office or a pharmacy.
There really needs to be a requirement for ground floor retail spaces on such structures. Honestly they make financial sense too, but "aesthetic" or other 'concerns' limit them.
The best I can do for a 3rd place is Discord - but even then it is usually people I know or have something in common with.
I'd love for there to be small grocers, cafes, pubs in my neighborhood - which admittedly is better than most but still very isolating.
This is exactly why I like living in cities rather than suburbs. When my area flooded recently, I felt super connected to all my neighbours. Nobody could leave the area and only one cafe was left open so you get to know everyone!
Anyway, my Aunty works for the council in my area and says that they require a certain amount of green spaces per Capita in high density areas. I thought that was great considering people in small units don't usually have backyards
Growing up in Ireland in the 70s and 80s, North America was soooooo attractive. When I finally went there in 93 (Vancouver + Seattle) I was soooo disappointed. No local pubs and few communal areas, shitty public transport systems and total car dependence. It is something we take for granted here and cannot do without.
I ended up at a local in Amsterdam when I visited on vacation. I went there with a group I met on a canal cruise, on recommendation from a couple of them who went for lunch and thought the owner was really nice.
And this was a true local, like just a corner bar most tourists wouldn't go. Like it was poker night and most people were locals playing poker. Which made it incredibly wild when we set up a table outside the bar, I look through the window, and sitting there was someone who I had met at my hostel in Brussels only a couple days before!
In addition to regulation, a second hurdle we face trying to reintroduce these places is economic. The London local being converted to housing is telling. I work as a planner in a city where residential is so much more profitable than any other land use. If given the choice, our developers would never build mixed use, and they would convert all of our existing commercial sites to strictly residential to boot. So it isn't enough to simply stop regulating these place out of our neighbourhoods, in a lot of cases we now need to regulate them in.
Thank you so much for adding references and further readings. I am sociology student in my masters focussing on livable city design and will certainly use this concept of third places in an upcoming paper. Thank you!
Another great video! I think it’s also important to note that the isolation and exclusivity are built into suburbs on purpose. Suburbs were/are built for a specific demographic in mind with the goal of keeping others out. And for that group it’s often seen as a pro. They don’t want to interact with people from different socieoecononic backgrounds than them. They don’t want to share public spaces with them. And they are willing to become dependent on cars in order to “get away” from them. That’s their goal. It’s not an accident.
I love the message of this video. You do great work on your channel. I'm one of those fortunate ones in Canada who happens to live in a very walkable pre-war neighbourhood with homes close to services, transit, and common spaces, and I never really appreciated it until I started watching your videos recently. I can appreciate it now, and I tell all the folks I know who were lured into brand new cookie-cutter suburbs all about your videos. Thanks for your insights and keep it up!
I live in a car dependent rural area, all my considerable life here, and it's gone from a farming community to a commuter community. I now take the bus into town once a week just to be able to wander around and socialise with strangers. I love my garden and the space around me but I miss the sense of community we had when several people would just drop in over the course of a day, and the highlight was the Saturday livestock auction, which is now long gone.
A thought: Can a good public commute be a third place?
I am reminded of my daily commute as a student, taking the train from the outskirts of Montreal island to the subway. The trip was a good hour in length, but was relaxing as seating was rather large and arranged in booths, so to speak. We would often see the same regulars, and sometimes spark conversations with them - especially if they were classmates. Sometimes we would see our professors there and chat with them. Small dramas would also unfold - like the time the conductor had wake up the regulars who napped (their stop was close), or when a lovers quarrel broke out, or the time the train stopped to eject a passenger who was smearing his feces all over a political advertising sign.
I imagine that some of the more relaxing, high quality commutes (such as the authors experience in Switzerland) may be more condusive to this type of behaviour?
Great video.
Third places may require regular cash payouts and excess caloric intake (cafes, bars), but the balance with mental well-being is a compelling component. Even in my walkable neighborhood I don't go "hang out" at a cafe. I do see some people in my neighborhood if we pass each other on the street, but the culture of the third place is essentially extinct. In North America it's also been snuffed out for parents by excessive fears for their children's safety (see other NJB video) and the overprogramming that leads to some families literally giving up on parental socialization until their kids move out. PS Would love to see a video on urban planning for large, multi-generational families in dense urban areas. With the small size and high cost of condos in Canada, there's no way for families to afford to make an urban choice.
I second that bleurgh regarding Wetherspoons! It's even getting hard to socialise in places like pubs - and it's becoming much more ingrained not to talk to someone you don't know if you haven't already met them online.
for the last few summers, my neighbourhood in montreal (verdun) has been turning its 1.6km main street into a pedestrian zone. it really brings people together. tons of space to just exist, play pétanque, people watch, meet with local councillors.
I hung out in and then worked at my local in Calgary. I moved from Calgary about 15 years ago but still know everyone when I go home for a visit. It is part of many people's stories (including many from outside of the neighbourhood). It is a huge part of who I am and was very important. I live in the US now and there is not a comparable pub in my city. I do have a series of coffee shops where I may find friends and community but it is not the same. I lived in the Beltline in Calgary and live just outside of the core in my current city. I am also an outlier in that I walk or cycle everywhere - trying to create it for myself!