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As someone with a few generations of Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft consoles hooked up in my living room, it’s pretty noticeable how much worse Sony got about backwards compatibility after they left the PS3 behind. I have to keep my PS3 and PS2 hooked up because very few classic Playstation games make it to PS4/PS5 in good shape (with a handful showing up either with cloud gaming or often poor local emulation). By contrast, there are some earlier generation Xbox games that have better graphics when played on my Series X and I never have to re-buy backwards compatible games again. Meanwhile, on the Sony side, my PS3 digital purchases typically don’t transfer to PS4/PS5 unless I want to use cloud gaming to just play on a remote PS3. Persona 5? I bought it for the PS3 but couldn’t play it on my PS4/PS5 unless I was willing to pay full price all over again.
The Japanese did not want to call the 4th PlayStation the PlayStation 4. Four in Japanese also means death so there's a superstition that it brings bad luck. I think they were onto something. The PS3 was the last noticeable generational leap and Playstation died with the PlayStation 4. The PlayStation 5 is just a reanimated corpse. That's why it has no games and is so ugly. It's been cursed.
@@samgee500 agree. PS5 is a huge and hugly low performance PC.... better get a PC with our prefered form factor / housing and now much better performances for not much more $$ than the newly announced PS5-Pro. Furthermore, such PC will run RPS3 very well for great PS3 emulation and still improving quickly
Don't forget nintendo does the same thing. Sorta. They have minor bc on some consoles like Wii, GBA etc, but re sell the big names as VC ports on everything else.
I will not lie. A lot of this conversation went clear over my head, and I like to think I keep up with tech news. But I know I have a pile of PS2 and PS3 games I would like to play if I buy a new console. And since Sony is choosing not to offer Backward Compatibility, I choose to keep my money in my bank account. It's that simple for me.
Just go buy a PS2 or PS3 off eBay or Amazon or something then... If you are still waiting to play those games because ps5 won't, then you don't really want to play those games as there are many solutions available to you, and have been for a while. I just looked. I can have a PS3 delivered to my house from Amazon and it be here in 2 days.
@@caliginousmoira8565 Had your fat been repaired before stolen? 'Cuz by now all original fat GPUs are likely failed or failing anyways (has to be repaired with chip from newer PS3 consoles)
@@MoonSon298 yes but the whole point of the PlayStation brand was to be able to play previous generations of PlayStation games on the newer PlayStation. This is one of the main visions from the Father of PlayStation. They only went back on their word when people complained about spending too much money on PS3. So Sony did what they could to reduce costs and in doing so, thought people don't really care about the feature. I CARE ABOUT IT!
It does. To PS5 and PS4. Which includes many games originally created and published on the PS3, as well as many PS1 and PS2 games with emulation wrappers on PSN. Beyond that, Sony has little motivation to do more.
even a ps4 could have ps3 backwards, just sony doont want it cause they are dumb as hell...., their company will dissapear in the next 40 years, because they are assholes
I have a large physical ps3 collection. I want to pop one of those games into my ps5 and play it. I don’t need or want a remastered version. I don’t want to rebuy this digitally or pay a subscription to access a game I already own
The issue with emulation is, no matter how well written, cannot perfectly simulate the enviro of the ps3 (or any target system for that matter) so that _every ps3 game will run as if natively._ The avg consumer just want their microwave to work, whatever food they heat up. Even with PCSX2 (a super mature emu),15% of games have various running glitches. If Sony just released a ps3 emu, the avg person just won't accept a bunch of games are just gonna be super glitched.
I mean the original X-box is named that as a shorthand for Direct X-box. So the take early in the video that MS treated X-box more as an API than a gaming console was spot on IMO.
No one ever brings up that we all owned ps1 classics on ps3 and Vita and Sony just decided not to carry those over to ps4. Getting ps1 running can’t be that hard. They just know we’ll still buy whatever they sell. I understand why ps3 is hard but for the older consoles they just can’t be bothered.
If you purchased a PS1 or PS2 game digitally on PS3 already, I noticed when they released the PS4/PS5 versions, they were unlocked for me as owned. It's disappointing all games are not on there and that I can't play my PS1, PS2 and PS3 physical discs.
They are named cut down yields, you can just ignore them ig I understand why he doing it, the amount of people who watch them till the end is probably a fraction and some of us (me included) like to rewatch time and time again
There is so much money in the BWC scene. Even to the fact they can even re-print PS1/PS2/PS3 games. But they want the digital market all for themselves. Greed is the factor companies run on these days.
I've wondered for a while how expensive it would be to take the CELL processor, shrink it down to a small and cheap process like 14nm, and include it inside the PS5. These days 7nm might even be cheap enough to do it. Theyd never do it, but it would be interesting to see if that was easier than trying to wrangle emulation with the CELL.
@@denisn8336 Yep. I legitimately would see the value in a 700$ PS5 Pro (W/ a disc drive of course) if it came with native PS3 backwards compatibility. It would be a genuine feature that would justify something like a 700$ console.
Without software emulation you won't be able to increase the native render resolution however with pssr you might be able to upscale the original hardware to the point where it's good enough.
@@samgee500 In this hypothetical they'd have only shrunk down the CELL, and would presumably be emulating the RSX which should allow them to increase the internal resolution. The PS3 did something similar where later backwards compatible models removed the GPU portion of the PS2, but kept the Emotion Engine which was the harder part to emulate. Of course they didn't increase the render resolution, but it shows the split design works.
PS3 back compat can work on PS5 (assuming emulator is like RPCS3) its the first party games that are difficult to emulate. Since they use the Cell SPU features. RPCS3 allows you to turn of some of those features in game. Its just every first party game uses them differently.
It would nice if Sony used a custom FPGA chip that they could easily emulate all past consoles to perfection. FPGAs are not cheap, but mass producing can bring down costs.
@@robertlawrence9000 that would be awesome. retro upcalers like the tink5x/4k PixelMorph and OSSC/pro make fantastic use of FPGA. the mister is a great product too. i think if Sony PlayStation engineers ever does delve into FPGAs, they would probably reverse engineer it and discontinue the chip later down the line so they could save a few bucks on manufacturing costs.
The PS1,2 and the PSP all have Mips CPU's, the Vita has an Arm Chip. The PS3 has the Power PC Cell chip based on Risc Architecture. I think if Sony cared they can do it. Just recreate the Mips CPU and the Cell CPU all in one and emulate the GPU's on the AMD APU. Essentially hybrid emulation which will give you options like 4K Graphics and higher frame rates. They can have PS1,2 and 3 support on the next console and PSP and Vita support on the next handheld. It is doable.
He's right about the Game Pass and multiplayer, I use it often for things like that. But most of the games I played on Game Pass are smaller indie titles, I think I might not have tried otherwise. Or even heard about. I'm on PC.
It's incredibly weird that this gamedev guy (whoever he is) is avoiding that topic, when the entire reason GamePass became a thing is because of the success of indie bundles and steam sales. He's avoiding the simple fact that people aren't going to buy his game unless it's either bundled or on a Steam sale, and GamePass was a way to get around that problem and keep people from just fleeing to the PC ecosystem to take advantage of way cheaper prices on games.
Everything said in this video tracks with my experience, this is a very good video in so much as it managed to coalesce into words the feelings I've had about game pass and the PS everything
PS3 games were absurdly optimized to the point of gibberish spaghetti code. Understanding the code is on thing, being able to reproduce the quirky runtime to have deterministic results is something else entirely.
I don’t like hearing about “backwards compatibility” that doesn’t play the discs I own. Selling me new copies of PS3 games on my phone is not backwards compatibility.
It’s funny that they mention that if the pro had backwards compatibility that people might buy it, I’m one of those people, hell the reason I’m not getting the pro is there’s simply not enough features to me that makes the price reasonable, and I’ve just wanted backwards compatibility for the longest time
Sooner or later just like Microsoft Sony also has to adopt spir-v as the interchange format to assure backwards compatibility. Additionally games have to become way less cpu dependent. Now that AAA games take longer to produce and are rare Sony has to consider this point more than ever.
It tried downloading my first digital PS2 game for the PS3 a week ago; Mercenaries, and it works perfectly and was very cheap! Had no problem re-buying it for £3.99. I wouldn't spend much more than that for a digital PS3 game that I already own to play it on the PS5! It's the principle!
Sony will sell backwards compatibility on a ps5 pro then 2 years later disable it without notice with a system update. They wanted to do that with ps2 bwc on ps3 too.
I have a mini pc on 7840HS and ut runs RPCS3 pretty well in 1080P with good FPS. But forget about 4K 60FPS on all games. Not sure if the PS5 APU can do as well, worst or better... waiting for Strix Halo now 😊
He’s got a point with Xbox. Being able to get a pc, sign into my Microsoft account, download the games I was playing on my console and pick up right where I left off was an awesome experience. Yet for some reason Microsoft wanted to neglect this with Minecraft despite the fact they own mojang and pull all the strings with bedrock. Really annoying.
Both the ps5 and ps4 are incapable of reading ps1 discs at a hardware level. They just lack the IR laser needed for CDs. But they could get ps2 and up working since both the ps4 and ps5 can play video DVDs and, ps3 and ps4 discs are blu-rays (the ps5 discs are UHD blu-rays) so the only thing preventing ps2 and ps3 discs from running in the ps5 is software.
@@decegrease The PS2's DVD drive (as do most DVD drives) has 2 laser diodes, one for CDs and another for DVDs, since both those formats use different wavelengths of light (colors). The PS3's Blu-ray drive (like most Blu-ray drives) has 3 diodes, one for CDs, one for DVDs and another for Blu-rays. But both the PS4 and the PS5 lack the laser diode needed for CDs, only having 2 of them, one for DVDs and another for Blu-rays. PS1 discs are CDs, PS2 discs can be CDs or DVDs (most PS2 discs are DVDs tho), the PS3 and PS4 use Blu-ray for games and the PS5 uses UHD Blu-rays. I hope this clarifies somethings.
@@JoseLgamer05 yeah that basically nails it, I was curious what the hardware difference was. Figured it had to be something with the lasers that read said disks. Thanks!
@@JoseLgamer05 Yeah I remember the early PS2 games being on CD's still and the underside was blue in color. The ones based on DVD had a silver, mirror finish on the underside.
there is no way on earth the ps4, which could not smoothly emulate Jak & Daxter on the PS2 using Sony's own in-house emulator, was able to emulate PS3 games in a presentable way. And as for the PS5, it probably can emulate the PS3, but it won't match the games natively running on the console, which would be a big nono for sony. at the very least they have to get those games running at 1440p/30fps and 720p60 and let upscaling do the rest
If PS5 would offer PS3 backwards compatibility this would be a home run. It’s one way of turning around bad press and no exclusive games shortage. Imagine playing Resistance on PS5.
A good alternative to Gamepass/MP pass is the model that It Takes Two and other co-op games take. One friend owns the game and up to n players can play the game with that friend so long as that friend is online and in their party. n being a value that the developers can set and design for their games. We used to do it back in the PSP days with Ad-hoc multiplayer where some games only required one copy of the game before you could multiplayer with them. But if you wanted to play single player in your own time, you needed two copies. I think this is by far the fairest model.
Lack of PS3 compatibility is understandable. However, Sony solved PS1 emulation during the PS2 Slim era. It persisted on PS3 even when PS2 back compat was removed. It should have been standard on PS4 and PS5.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Sony to EVER release local emulation of PS3 games. They've been pushing remakes of their own IPs and third parties since be the a bit before the PS4 launched. Sit down with a complete list of PS3 games and start eliminating items. Start with the annual release sports franchises. The publishers of those wish the previous year's version would die as soon as its successor launches on the same platform, never mind two platforms removed over a decade later. Next, start eliminating games that have licensing entanglements that make them a hassle to keep on the market. (If they can't make new sales, Sony has no reason to care.) Then there's the orphan titles with no certain ownership. (Microsoft's iterative translation technique made those a no go for them due to creating a derivative native binary in the process.) Then there's the multi-platform releases that were markedly inferior on the PS3 due to the learning curve obstacle, especially in the first two years or so. Now the list is a fair bit shorter. We can now mark off all of the games that have had remakes released since the PS4 launched. What's left that made good money on the PS3 and anyone beyond a tiny niche audience still cares about? Not a lot. Why would Sony sink many millions into bringing those games to the current and future market? Where's the ROI? Anything on PS3 perceived as having good ongoing revenue potential has likely already received a remake or is in the process. (MGS4, for example) Having it on PS4/PS5 natively is far less hassle for cloud offerings and moving to other platforms without the CELL complexity holding up the process. When Microsoft went the extra mile for backward compatibility, it was because they badly needed it. They were the underdog more often than not. Sony had the entire PS1 library to draw upon, and many third party titles on PS2 that had no other venue. Microsoft had just the original Xbox to draw upon and that library was on the small side by comparison, with few genuine exclusives. Early on, publisher support for the Xbox 360 wasn't as wide as they would have liked, following the Xbox. Despite having done much better business with the 360, Sony still had a strong lead in diversity of titles on their machine. Microsoft wanted the BC to the 360 to be there at launch but the delay ended up being yet another stumble out the gate for the Xbox One. Their library on Xbox One needed all the help it could get, while Sony had the luxury of taking the slow remake approach to let them walk away from the CELL debacle. Whether the PS5 can support a full inclusive PS3 emulation doesn't really matter. They just don't have any real reason to bother.
There will be backwards compatibility once the rpcs3 emulator is good enough, the ps2 classics emulator used pcsx2 as a base. If you use the older version of pcsx2 and force the ps2 classics emulator on ps3 and ps4 to play certain games they have the exact same graphical bugs.
People are forgetting the PS5 Disc drive can't even read CDs. Just like the PS4. So all of the PS1 library will never work on PS4 or PS5. Now DVDs work fine but there are some PS2 games that use CD so those will fail to work.
can you make cut down yields a separate channel? I like the idea of taking interesting bits from your long 2-4 hour videos, they definitely aren't for everyone; but for those who actually watch those videos, seeing a new vid pop up and then have it be something we have already seen isn't the best. Hardware Unboxed has their HUB clips channel for this reason
Not every channel needs to have a separate channel just for for short clips. You can have both on one channel as long as they're clearly labeled. Also I think this is to bring attention to this channel anyway. Making a separate channel would mostly bring views and subs to that other channel.
That's nonsense. PPC to x86 and vice versa were already available for licensing when Apple was still making PPC Macs. Several companies made emulators to get Windows and Windows apps running on Macs. One of those companies, Connectix (who also made a PS1 emulator for PC), was bought by Microsoft. Microsoft previously had experience from the DEC Alpha era, producing a product called FX!32 that pioneered the iterative translation technique used for getting Xbox 360 games onto x86 Xbox. PPC translation to X86, especially when it can be a saved binary and doesn't have to happen in real-time, is no big deal nowadays. The sticking point is, and always has been, the SPEs on the CELL processor that distinguishes it from being a run of the mill PPC CPU. Creating a native x86 runtime that will duplicate the behavior of the SPEs exactly enough for games is painful in the extreme. Emulator projects have been working on it for almost 20 years, since the PS3 launched. Games are very unforgiving apps to get working this way. An app that didn't produce real-time output would be relatively easy. It isn't just PPC. It's CELL and CELL alone that is the problem here. This is why Sony chose to promote remakes as their answer to keeping popular older games in the market for purchase.
@@MooresLawIsDead Xbox layoffs happened years after the majority of 360 ports were made. MS used to have that excess capacity to do things like PPC ports. After blowing over $100 billion in M&A the board at Microsoft wants to see results, hence the massive belt tightening that we've seen. Also note that MS stopped work on new BC titles over a year ago. Its a thing of the past that only could have happened in a free money environment. Conditions are different now.
I remember hearing about a patent Sony filed on s PS3 emulator even back in the PS4 days. I might be misremembering and it was a PS2 emulator in the PS3 days but either way, its something the PS5 (and in the latter case,PS4) should do easily.
Local BC of older gens (last gen BC is a no brainer) doesnt actually push console sales in any meaningful way. If it did, Xbox would have dominated this gen. This is a case of the loud niche minority.
As someone who has wanted BC and complained about it, this is a really good point. Why should they devote the resources for something that doesn't guarantee revenue
I mean, xbox backwards compatibility program was patch based. Not every games would run, but only a select few that could be resold by the original publisher. To be a killer feature, backwards compatibility must work like it did on PS2 and PS3: You put the disc in > the game runs. No matter what game it is. At worst it can run like shit. But it shouldn't be based on patches and deals with the original publisher.
Man, I loved Resistance 2, it made me go out and buy Resistance and I got the PSP version one too. Didn't like the game after they killed off the main character.
it angers me that sony refuses to make the ps5 compatible with the ps2 and ps3 games because they would rather remaster the games and then have people buy them again. the ps5 is powerful enough to run those old games
That's absolutely not true that games don't make money on Game Pass. Certain big AAA or high budget AA might not make as much as they would have liked to, but Microsoft gives most of these developers money up front and then a fee for each download or such. It's true that it isn't the best choice for EVERY GAME, EVERY DEVELOPER, but to say that lots of games have and are struggling to make money through it like it's some sort of failed platform is not true.
I think if they had used never Zen Cores for the PS5 Pro or added AVX-512 support to the Zen2 CUs they could have easily make PS3 EMulator, as seen that RCPS3 has a lot of performance gains with AVX-512.
if ps6 won't have ps3 backwards compat then we will know they can do it just don't want to, eventually they have to stop the cloud streaming ps3 rigs they have and if that happens we will either get ps3 backwards compat or never see it ever.
@@btwiusearch2 Tbh PS5 Pro with a Discdrive and PS1/2/3 backwards compatibility would at least sweeten the 800 Euro/880Dollar price tag for us in Europe
Backwards Compatibility would quite literally increase the value of the playstation in a way no one could imagine. but with that logic, they cant give it to you for nothing. they have to milk it beyond realism. subscription based backwards compatibility possibly, or a special version of PS like the Pro.. they make no money from games that have already been sold over a decade ago, and there are no in-game-purchases.. so.. they have zero room for profit other than the Initial Sale.
I don't think PS is working on backwards compatibility atp. Before the PS5 was officially announced, total BC was the most hyped feature. People took it for granted but they werecall fabricated rumors.
It wouldn't surprise me if they can since regular people can now emulate it. It's more likely from what I've seen that they want to make the ps online library more appealing buy reselling the games there. Trouble is I don't want the library for play games I already own and would rather emulate or risk using my old ps3 and hope it doesn't bite the dust. It's also a Big reason why PS5 will be my last console, I'm moving solely to PC now.
Yeah I want FULL Backwards Compatibility back like the Father of PlayStation said the purpose of the name PlayStation means. He intended for all new generations of PlayStation to be able to play all last generations of games! Since people complained about spending a small amount of money more for PlayStation 3, Sony lowered the cost by going back on their word. I blame the complainers because they made it sound like it wasn't important to them so that alone tested the waters to kind of forget backwards compatibility even though probably a majority of people wants it.
I think Zen2 with the missing AVX512 is not powerful enough for the known emulation of the CELL processor. The "PC workaround" is probably not feasible on the PS5 Pro. Neither is post processing. Sony should somehow manage to emulate and parallelize the Cell processor via GPU.
XBox's BC was half baked. They didn't have 360 Indie Games support with bc, nor 360 Kinnect BC for One even though it was possible to make those games work on One. There are a LOT of XBox Studios games that aren't bc, case in point, Project Sylpheed. WTF is this not bc considering MS published it??????!!!!!!!
TLDR Sony has it working, but want it to work everywhee the way Microsoft pulled it off on Xbox, and they don't have that working yet. MLID had a source claiming Sony didn't release their PS3 emulator on PS4, so everything else in this conversation is speculation based on that
Ive been thinking this for this entire generation..... Why are they holding it back? Its the best "30th celebration" of Playstation! Ive been predicting them releasing this! Cant see them asking for money for it! BUT more as a GOLD FEATURE tick box for the next PS6!? i mean when you all get portable etc
Tell me how much they don't know what they're doing even though they are console platform leader and made the best games of past generation and this generation (so far). :D
@@sermerlin1 I think you're confusing Sony with Nintendo. Cause it's the Switch that is about to beat the all time record for best selling console currently held by PS2 and it's Nintendo that consistently puts out 9/10 games. Sony being ahead of Xbox has more to do with how badly Xbox screwed up in the last generation and how they continue to screw up this generation.
@@sermerlin1 against what? Redfall, Halo Infinite, and Quantum Break? Sure, they may have "more" releases, but it's BS like Spiderman 2, God of War Ragnarok, Concord, Dustborn, and a bunch of forgotten mediocre franchises like Killzone overall and scam games like Life of Black Tiger. The market is bone dry. At least Xbone has backward compatibility (provided you have an online connection). TLOU 1 and 2 don't need another remaster. Games like Killzone 3 need a remaster.
guys. ps4 pro you could change the hard drive. thessd on ps5 is soldered ans there is so many ps5s on the used market with damaged ssds and error codes that wont play gamea. i am disgusted with Sony.
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NOOOO HANK NOOOO DONT ABBREVIATE BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY AS BWC
who doesnt love bwc
LMFAO
Amirite?
It's not as big of a deal as bbc
Whats BWC?
Well, BWC strategy at the end may be beter than the BB...
Less chance for interconsole violence
@@POVwithRCwokies gonna be raging😂
ask your mom about my BWC strategy
The WHAT strategy?
Resistance 2 fans reunite!
So true…
Resistance, Infamous, Killzone, Motorstorm, Metal Gear Solid 4, ..............
Resistance is futile also.. (2)
As someone with a few generations of Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft consoles hooked up in my living room, it’s pretty noticeable how much worse Sony got about backwards compatibility after they left the PS3 behind. I have to keep my PS3 and PS2 hooked up because very few classic Playstation games make it to PS4/PS5 in good shape (with a handful showing up either with cloud gaming or often poor local emulation). By contrast, there are some earlier generation Xbox games that have better graphics when played on my Series X and I never have to re-buy backwards compatible games again. Meanwhile, on the Sony side, my PS3 digital purchases typically don’t transfer to PS4/PS5 unless I want to use cloud gaming to just play on a remote PS3. Persona 5? I bought it for the PS3 but couldn’t play it on my PS4/PS5 unless I was willing to pay full price all over again.
The Japanese did not want to call the 4th PlayStation the PlayStation 4. Four in Japanese also means death so there's a superstition that it brings bad luck. I think they were onto something. The PS3 was the last noticeable generational leap and Playstation died with the PlayStation 4. The PlayStation 5 is just a reanimated corpse. That's why it has no games and is so ugly. It's been cursed.
@@samgee500 agree. PS5 is a huge and hugly low performance PC.... better get a PC with our prefered form factor / housing and now much better performances for not much more $$ than the newly announced PS5-Pro. Furthermore, such PC will run RPS3 very well for great PS3 emulation and still improving quickly
Don't forget nintendo does the same thing. Sorta. They have minor bc on some consoles like Wii, GBA etc, but re sell the big names as VC ports on everything else.
I will not lie. A lot of this conversation went clear over my head, and I like to think I keep up with tech news. But I know I have a pile of PS2 and PS3 games I would like to play if I buy a new console. And since Sony is choosing not to offer Backward Compatibility, I choose to keep my money in my bank account. It's that simple for me.
Just go buy a PS2 or PS3 off eBay or Amazon or something then... If you are still waiting to play those games because ps5 won't, then you don't really want to play those games as there are many solutions available to you, and have been for a while.
I just looked. I can have a PS3 delivered to my house from Amazon and it be here in 2 days.
@@AnEyeRacky i had to buy the last ps3 made because someone stole my fat ps3 that could play ps2 games... i really hate people
@@caliginousmoira8565 Had your fat been repaired before stolen? 'Cuz by now all original fat GPUs are likely failed or failing anyways (has to be repaired with chip from newer PS3 consoles)
Theres a console for you its called the PS2 & PS3 or better yet buy a PC to emulate those consoles better than Sony ever will
@@MoonSon298 yes but the whole point of the PlayStation brand was to be able to play previous generations of PlayStation games on the newer PlayStation. This is one of the main visions from the Father of PlayStation. They only went back on their word when people complained about spending too much money on PS3. So Sony did what they could to reduce costs and in doing so, thought people don't really care about the feature. I CARE ABOUT IT!
Why give you backwards compatibility, when they can milk you for digital remastered versions 😂😂
You laugh but yes… why…
They can still do both. I mean a very nice remaster can be worth a buy.
Remaster of 1 years old games
@@robertlawrence9000 keyword being 'nice'. They'll just sell the same sh!t like last of us 2 remastered remastered remake pro max.
I personally wish they’d milk the BWC
Does this mean Sony’s BBC strategy is officially a failure then?
The BBC strategy was too hard and was taking too long.
The pain points were too significant
If PS5 Pro had backwards compatibility then I'd get one.
For real
I would too if I could play my older PS games on it on one system using one disk drive. Instead of dusting off the PS2 and the older TV to play GOW.
It does. To PS5 and PS4. Which includes many games originally created and published on the PS3, as well as many PS1 and PS2 games with emulation wrappers on PSN. Beyond that, Sony has little motivation to do more.
even a ps4 could have ps3 backwards, just sony doont want it cause they are dumb as hell...., their company will dissapear in the next 40 years, because they are assholes
I'd even pay hundreds more if the simply did an SOC backwards compatibility solution.
I have a large physical ps3 collection. I want to pop one of those games into my ps5 and play it. I don’t need or want a remastered version. I don’t want to rebuy this digitally or pay a subscription to access a game I already own
EXACTLY!!! Bring the vision of PlayStation back!!!
@@robertlawrence9000 get a backwards ps3
Such a great Game Resistence is! I Miss Nathan Hale!
Sony doesn't, apparently. 🤦
The issue with emulation is, no matter how well written, cannot perfectly simulate the enviro of the ps3 (or any target system for that matter) so that _every ps3 game will run as if natively._ The avg consumer just want their microwave to work, whatever food they heat up. Even with PCSX2 (a super mature emu),15% of games have various running glitches. If Sony just released a ps3 emu, the avg person just won't accept a bunch of games are just gonna be super glitched.
But they could make a whitelist of games that work at 100% capacity, and from what I am told it is a long list by now.
tnats not true, an emulator its made by a big company like sony can be 100% functional
I mean the original X-box is named that as a shorthand for Direct X-box. So the take early in the video that MS treated X-box more as an API than a gaming console was spot on IMO.
If they did do Backcompat with the entire library of ps games, they would be able to track that data
No one ever brings up that we all owned ps1 classics on ps3 and Vita and Sony just decided not to carry those over to ps4. Getting ps1 running can’t be that hard. They just know we’ll still buy whatever they sell. I understand why ps3 is hard but for the older consoles they just can’t be bothered.
If you purchased a PS1 or PS2 game digitally on PS3 already, I noticed when they released the PS4/PS5 versions, they were unlocked for me as owned. It's disappointing all games are not on there and that I can't play my PS1, PS2 and PS3 physical discs.
Literally the perfect name for the cuts from your podcast. Excellent label, now there can be no confusion
When my favorite video game is on the thumbnail, I click
Please, make another channel for these clips. I saw the whole podcast already, YT will recommend this clips for me, but I won't watch.
They are named cut down yields, you can just ignore them ig
I understand why he doing it, the amount of people who watch them till the end is probably a fraction and some of us (me included) like to rewatch time and time again
There is so much money in the BWC scene. Even to the fact they can even re-print PS1/PS2/PS3 games. But they want the digital market all for themselves. Greed is the factor companies run on these days.
The love in the eyes of your dog whilst you’re reading you CDKey offer is something to cherish.
I've wondered for a while how expensive it would be to take the CELL processor, shrink it down to a small and cheap process like 14nm, and include it inside the PS5. These days 7nm might even be cheap enough to do it. Theyd never do it, but it would be interesting to see if that was easier than trying to wrangle emulation with the CELL.
exactly and have it be on a specific ps model everyone will buy it
@@denisn8336 Yep. I legitimately would see the value in a 700$ PS5 Pro (W/ a disc drive of course) if it came with native PS3 backwards compatibility. It would be a genuine feature that would justify something like a 700$ console.
@@theseabass Exactly sucks they Sony is run by guys that are out of touch
Without software emulation you won't be able to increase the native render resolution however with pssr you might be able to upscale the original hardware to the point where it's good enough.
@@samgee500 In this hypothetical they'd have only shrunk down the CELL, and would presumably be emulating the RSX which should allow them to increase the internal resolution. The PS3 did something similar where later backwards compatible models removed the GPU portion of the PS2, but kept the Emotion Engine which was the harder part to emulate. Of course they didn't increase the render resolution, but it shows the split design works.
The horrendous quality of PS2 emulation on PS5 gives me some doubts about Sony’s ability to create a proper PS3 architecture emulation
PS3 back compat can work on PS5 (assuming emulator is like RPCS3) its the first party games that are difficult to emulate. Since they use the Cell SPU features. RPCS3 allows you to turn of some of those features in game. Its just every first party game uses them differently.
Another problem is Getting the licenses to distribute PS3 games digitally. Not all publishers may agree to that,
It would nice if Sony used a custom FPGA chip that they could easily emulate all past consoles to perfection. FPGAs are not cheap, but mass producing can bring down costs.
@@robertlawrence9000 that would be awesome. retro upcalers like the tink5x/4k PixelMorph and OSSC/pro make fantastic use of FPGA. the mister is a great product too. i think if Sony PlayStation engineers ever does delve into FPGAs, they would probably reverse engineer it and discontinue the chip later down the line so they could save a few bucks on manufacturing costs.
@@robertlawrence9000 but i hope they keep the FPGA in the consoles going forward if it came to that.
@@billymichael1999 Maybe we should hit up Mark Cerny on it for future consoles. 😁
I would love to play infamous 1 and 2 and killzone 2 and 3 on the ps5 via backwards compatibility. Hopefully sony can make it happen soon.
The PS1,2 and the PSP all have Mips CPU's, the Vita has an Arm Chip. The PS3 has the Power PC Cell chip based on Risc Architecture. I think if Sony cared they can do it. Just recreate the Mips CPU and the Cell CPU all in one and emulate the GPU's on the AMD APU. Essentially hybrid emulation which will give you options like 4K Graphics and higher frame rates. They can have PS1,2 and 3 support on the next console and PSP and Vita support on the next handheld. It is doable.
He's right about the Game Pass and multiplayer, I use it often for things like that. But most of the games I played on Game Pass are smaller indie titles, I think I might not have tried otherwise. Or even heard about. I'm on PC.
It's incredibly weird that this gamedev guy (whoever he is) is avoiding that topic, when the entire reason GamePass became a thing is because of the success of indie bundles and steam sales. He's avoiding the simple fact that people aren't going to buy his game unless it's either bundled or on a Steam sale, and GamePass was a way to get around that problem and keep people from just fleeing to the PC ecosystem to take advantage of way cheaper prices on games.
do you have any info on Qualcomm supposedly trying to buy Intel?
Everything said in this video tracks with my experience, this is a very good video in so much as it managed to coalesce into words the feelings I've had about game pass and the PS everything
I want a resistance 2 remake with the multiplayer i have fine memories with that game with one of my friends that past away some years ago
But the R2 co-op was trash compared to R1
I don't expect Ps3 backwards compatible in this gen
They’re obviously holding on to it as a selling point for PS6
Just like Nintendo and GameCube, DS, 3DS support being saved for Switch2
PS3 games were absurdly optimized to the point of gibberish spaghetti code. Understanding the code is on thing, being able to reproduce the quirky runtime to have deterministic results is something else entirely.
Yup
You are right. Portable device is huge for gamers. Steam Deck is a perfect example.
I don’t like hearing about “backwards compatibility” that doesn’t play the discs I own. Selling me new copies of PS3 games on my phone is not backwards compatibility.
It’s funny that they mention that if the pro had backwards compatibility that people might buy it, I’m one of those people, hell the reason I’m not getting the pro is there’s simply not enough features to me that makes the price reasonable, and I’ve just wanted backwards compatibility for the longest time
Starhawk baby
Please, indicate somehow this upload is part of the podcast - some of us have already seen it. 😢
That intro beat has more than a little bit of 'Bella Lugosis dead' about it
Sooner or later just like Microsoft Sony also has to adopt spir-v as the interchange format to assure backwards compatibility. Additionally games have to become way less cpu dependent. Now that AAA games take longer to produce and are rare Sony has to consider this point more than ever.
It tried downloading my first digital PS2 game for the PS3 a week ago; Mercenaries, and it works perfectly and was very cheap! Had no problem re-buying it for £3.99. I wouldn't spend much more than that for a digital PS3 game that I already own to play it on the PS5! It's the principle!
I wish we wouldn't have parts of the podcast on here. Or at least, have it marked as such.
"Cut Down Yields" is in the title.
"Cut Down Yields" was in the title.
Sony will sell backwards compatibility on a ps5 pro then 2 years later disable it without notice with a system update. They wanted to do that with ps2 bwc on ps3 too.
Bring back the guitar intro!
I have a mini pc on 7840HS and ut runs RPCS3 pretty well in 1080P with good FPS. But forget about 4K 60FPS on all games. Not sure if the PS5 APU can do as well, worst or better... waiting for Strix Halo now 😊
He’s got a point with Xbox. Being able to get a pc, sign into my Microsoft account, download the games I was playing on my console and pick up right where I left off was an awesome experience. Yet for some reason Microsoft wanted to neglect this with Minecraft despite the fact they own mojang and pull all the strings with bedrock. Really annoying.
Both the ps5 and ps4 are incapable of reading ps1 discs at a hardware level. They just lack the IR laser needed for CDs. But they could get ps2 and up working since both the ps4 and ps5 can play video DVDs and, ps3 and ps4 discs are blu-rays (the ps5 discs are UHD blu-rays) so the only thing preventing ps2 and ps3 discs from running in the ps5 is software.
Genuinely curious, why can a PS2 play PS1 disks but not a PS5? I know dick all about optical drives lol
@@decegreasebecause the PS2 had the optical laser hardware necessary to read CD’s (PS1) and DVD’s (PS2). PS5 can only read DVD’s and BluRay.
@@decegrease The PS2's DVD drive (as do most DVD drives) has 2 laser diodes, one for CDs and another for DVDs, since both those formats use different wavelengths of light (colors). The PS3's Blu-ray drive (like most Blu-ray drives) has 3 diodes, one for CDs, one for DVDs and another for Blu-rays. But both the PS4 and the PS5 lack the laser diode needed for CDs, only having 2 of them, one for DVDs and another for Blu-rays.
PS1 discs are CDs, PS2 discs can be CDs or DVDs (most PS2 discs are DVDs tho), the PS3 and PS4 use Blu-ray for games and the PS5 uses UHD Blu-rays.
I hope this clarifies somethings.
@@JoseLgamer05 yeah that basically nails it, I was curious what the hardware difference was. Figured it had to be something with the lasers that read said disks. Thanks!
@@JoseLgamer05 Yeah I remember the early PS2 games being on CD's still and the underside was blue in color. The ones based on DVD had a silver, mirror finish on the underside.
there is no way on earth the ps4, which could not smoothly emulate Jak & Daxter on the PS2 using Sony's own in-house emulator, was able to emulate PS3 games in a presentable way. And as for the PS5, it probably can emulate the PS3, but it won't match the games natively running on the console, which would be a big nono for sony.
at the very least they have to get those games running at 1440p/30fps and 720p60 and let upscaling do the rest
If PS5 would offer PS3 backwards compatibility this would be a home run. It’s one way of turning around bad press and no exclusive games shortage. Imagine playing Resistance on PS5.
A good alternative to Gamepass/MP pass is the model that It Takes Two and other co-op games take. One friend owns the game and up to n players can play the game with that friend so long as that friend is online and in their party. n being a value that the developers can set and design for their games.
We used to do it back in the PSP days with Ad-hoc multiplayer where some games only required one copy of the game before you could multiplayer with them. But if you wanted to play single player in your own time, you needed two copies. I think this is by far the fairest model.
Lack of PS3 compatibility is understandable. However, Sony solved PS1 emulation during the PS2 Slim era. It persisted on PS3 even when PS2 back compat was removed. It should have been standard on PS4 and PS5.
Playstation should enable backwards compatibility for ALL PS1 to PS3 games on the PS5. I'd pay a premium price for a SOC implementation.
If PS6 has full backward compatibility & a disc drive, I'll buy one ... else I'll stick to Steam.
I do believe the disk drive will be add-on moving forward.
nice song intro 😁
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Sony to EVER release local emulation of PS3 games. They've been pushing remakes of their own IPs and third parties since be the a bit before the PS4 launched. Sit down with a complete list of PS3 games and start eliminating items. Start with the annual release sports franchises. The publishers of those wish the previous year's version would die as soon as its successor launches on the same platform, never mind two platforms removed over a decade later. Next, start eliminating games that have licensing entanglements that make them a hassle to keep on the market. (If they can't make new sales, Sony has no reason to care.) Then there's the orphan titles with no certain ownership. (Microsoft's iterative translation technique made those a no go for them due to creating a derivative native binary in the process.) Then there's the multi-platform releases that were markedly inferior on the PS3 due to the learning curve obstacle, especially in the first two years or so.
Now the list is a fair bit shorter. We can now mark off all of the games that have had remakes released since the PS4 launched. What's left that made good money on the PS3 and anyone beyond a tiny niche audience still cares about? Not a lot. Why would Sony sink many millions into bringing those games to the current and future market? Where's the ROI?
Anything on PS3 perceived as having good ongoing revenue potential has likely already received a remake or is in the process. (MGS4, for example) Having it on PS4/PS5 natively is far less hassle for cloud offerings and moving to other platforms without the CELL complexity holding up the process.
When Microsoft went the extra mile for backward compatibility, it was because they badly needed it. They were the underdog more often than not. Sony had the entire PS1 library to draw upon, and many third party titles on PS2 that had no other venue. Microsoft had just the original Xbox to draw upon and that library was on the small side by comparison, with few genuine exclusives. Early on, publisher support for the Xbox 360 wasn't as wide as they would have liked, following the Xbox. Despite having done much better business with the 360, Sony still had a strong lead in diversity of titles on their machine. Microsoft wanted the BC to the 360 to be there at launch but the delay ended up being yet another stumble out the gate for the Xbox One. Their library on Xbox One needed all the help it could get, while Sony had the luxury of taking the slow remake approach to let them walk away from the CELL debacle.
Whether the PS5 can support a full inclusive PS3 emulation doesn't really matter. They just don't have any real reason to bother.
There will be backwards compatibility once the rpcs3 emulator is good enough, the ps2 classics emulator used pcsx2 as a base. If you use the older version of pcsx2 and force the ps2 classics emulator on ps3 and ps4 to play certain games they have the exact same graphical bugs.
RPCS3 works really well on an 8 core zen 2 CPU...
People are forgetting the PS5 Disc drive can't even read CDs. Just like the PS4. So all of the PS1 library will never work on PS4 or PS5. Now DVDs work fine but there are some PS2 games that use CD so those will fail to work.
can you make cut down yields a separate channel?
I like the idea of taking interesting bits from your long 2-4 hour videos, they definitely aren't for everyone; but for those who actually watch those videos, seeing a new vid pop up and then have it be something we have already seen isn't the best.
Hardware Unboxed has their HUB clips channel for this reason
Not every channel needs to have a separate channel just for for short clips. You can have both on one channel as long as they're clearly labeled. Also I think this is to bring attention to this channel anyway. Making a separate channel would mostly bring views and subs to that other channel.
SRPA agent ID’d. I really hope we see another Resistance game… ideally available on more platforms this time around.
So on PC?
Hey MLID, I think your big enough now where it would be pretty cool to get a dedicated CGI or UE5 render made of your logo =D
Microsoft has the excess capacity to make PPC to x86 ports, Sony doesn't. Simple.
Then why is XBOX laying off employees and milking their fanbase extra hard right now?
That's nonsense. PPC to x86 and vice versa were already available for licensing when Apple was still making PPC Macs. Several companies made emulators to get Windows and Windows apps running on Macs. One of those companies, Connectix (who also made a PS1 emulator for PC), was bought by Microsoft. Microsoft previously had experience from the DEC Alpha era, producing a product called FX!32 that pioneered the iterative translation technique used for getting Xbox 360 games onto x86 Xbox.
PPC translation to X86, especially when it can be a saved binary and doesn't have to happen in real-time, is no big deal nowadays. The sticking point is, and always has been, the SPEs on the CELL processor that distinguishes it from being a run of the mill PPC CPU. Creating a native x86 runtime that will duplicate the behavior of the SPEs exactly enough for games is painful in the extreme. Emulator projects have been working on it for almost 20 years, since the PS3 launched. Games are very unforgiving apps to get working this way. An app that didn't produce real-time output would be relatively easy.
It isn't just PPC. It's CELL and CELL alone that is the problem here. This is why Sony chose to promote remakes as their answer to keeping popular older games in the market for purchase.
@@MooresLawIsDead Xbox layoffs happened years after the majority of 360 ports were made. MS used to have that excess capacity to do things like PPC ports. After blowing over $100 billion in M&A the board at Microsoft wants to see results, hence the massive belt tightening that we've seen.
Also note that MS stopped work on new BC titles over a year ago. Its a thing of the past that only could have happened in a free money environment. Conditions are different now.
I remember hearing about a patent Sony filed on s PS3 emulator even back in the PS4 days. I might be misremembering and it was a PS2 emulator in the PS3 days but either way, its something the PS5 (and in the latter case,PS4) should do easily.
Local BC of older gens (last gen BC is a no brainer) doesnt actually push console sales in any meaningful way. If it did, Xbox would have dominated this gen.
This is a case of the loud niche minority.
As someone who has wanted BC and complained about it, this is a really good point. Why should they devote the resources for something that doesn't guarantee revenue
I mean, xbox backwards compatibility program was patch based. Not every games would run, but only a select few that could be resold by the original publisher.
To be a killer feature, backwards compatibility must work like it did on PS2 and PS3: You put the disc in > the game runs. No matter what game it is. At worst it can run like shit. But it shouldn't be based on patches and deals with the original publisher.
what is bc
It helps make people confident in a purchase if they could play their entire collection on newer hardware. It worked for PC.
Sony is in a dominant console position where it feels customers must adapt to its offerings and not the other way around.
Man, I loved Resistance 2, it made me go out and buy Resistance and I got the PSP version one too. Didn't like the game after they killed off the main character.
Any news about RDNA 4?
prob hear somethin on Tuesday
it angers me that sony refuses to make the ps5 compatible with the ps2 and ps3 games because they would rather remaster the games and then have people buy them again. the ps5 is powerful enough to run those old games
That's absolutely not true that games don't make money on Game Pass. Certain big AAA or high budget AA might not make as much as they would have liked to, but Microsoft gives most of these developers money up front and then a fee for each download or such. It's true that it isn't the best choice for EVERY GAME, EVERY DEVELOPER, but to say that lots of games have and are struggling to make money through it like it's some sort of failed platform is not true.
They probably just don't really think it's worth the money. People get big excited about it and then barely touch it, much less buy them
I think if they had used never Zen Cores for the PS5 Pro or added AVX-512 support to the Zen2 CUs they could have easily make PS3 EMulator, as seen that RCPS3 has a lot of performance gains with AVX-512.
if ps6 won't have ps3 backwards compat then we will know they can do it just don't want to, eventually they have to stop the cloud streaming ps3 rigs they have and if that happens we will either get ps3 backwards compat or never see it ever.
@@btwiusearch2 Tbh PS5 Pro with a Discdrive and PS1/2/3 backwards compatibility would at least sweeten the 800 Euro/880Dollar price tag for us in Europe
Backwards Compatibility would quite literally increase the value of the playstation in a way no one could imagine. but with that logic, they cant give it to you for nothing. they have to milk it beyond realism. subscription based backwards compatibility possibly, or a special version of PS like the Pro.. they make no money from games that have already been sold over a decade ago, and there are no in-game-purchases.. so.. they have zero room for profit other than the Initial Sale.
They’re not going to do PS3 backward compatibility. And even if they did it would only be a few games like the current Psone and PS2 classics.
I am convinced they could just do an Update and we have it but why should they bother… with Zero actual Competition right now.
I don't think PS is working on backwards compatibility atp. Before the PS5 was officially announced, total BC was the most hyped feature. People took it for granted but they werecall fabricated rumors.
It wouldn't surprise me if they can since regular people can now emulate it. It's more likely from what I've seen that they want to make the ps online library more appealing buy reselling the games there. Trouble is I don't want the library for play games I already own and would rather emulate or risk using my old ps3 and hope it doesn't bite the dust. It's also a Big reason why PS5 will be my last console, I'm moving solely to PC now.
Yeah I want FULL Backwards Compatibility back like the Father of PlayStation said the purpose of the name PlayStation means. He intended for all new generations of PlayStation to be able to play all last generations of games! Since people complained about spending a small amount of money more for PlayStation 3, Sony lowered the cost by going back on their word. I blame the complainers because they made it sound like it wasn't important to them so that alone tested the waters to kind of forget backwards compatibility even though probably a majority of people wants it.
I wangt a pixel perfect arcade Battlezone, HydroThunder, and other oldies. I don't know why Team Ninja pulled Dead or Alive 6...
Do you have any news/leaks of PS6 ?
Sony is currently working on native ps3 backwards compatibility for ps5
Correct
Took em long enough.
@troypowers750 Yeah, probably by 2025 or 2026 sony will announce native PS3 backwards compatibility for ps5
PS3 had no backwards compatibility (only the first big version with had literary the old counsel hardware build in)
Or just provide the source code when you buy the game and then you can fix it yourself and run it anywhere....... The GPL is so cool right ?
I think Zen2 with the missing AVX512 is not powerful enough for the known emulation of the CELL processor. The "PC workaround" is probably not feasible on the PS5 Pro. Neither is post processing. Sony should somehow manage to emulate and parallelize the Cell processor via GPU.
bro when is zen 5 threadripper?
Didn't I leak that years ago?
@@MooresLawIsDead bro i type "zen 5 threadripper moores law is dead" in yt, theres no title that says zen 5 threadripper came out 🥲
XBox's BC was half baked. They didn't have 360 Indie Games support with bc, nor 360 Kinnect BC for One even though it was possible to make those games work on One.
There are a LOT of XBox Studios games that aren't bc, case in point, Project Sylpheed. WTF is this not bc considering MS published it??????!!!!!!!
I think the PS6 will have backwards compatibility but they will lock it to their subscription service.
Instead of BC emulation, why not make a version of the detachable Bluray drive with PS1/2/3 hardware built in. For a price.
Because the R&D to modernize the cell engine would be too much.
Trying to kill off physical media
They probably are going the Nintendo route just rerelease stuff and charge for it or put it behind a subscription
No cell processor built In
TLDR Sony has it working, but want it to work everywhee the way Microsoft pulled it off on Xbox, and they don't have that working yet. MLID had a source claiming Sony didn't release their PS3 emulator on PS4, so everything else in this conversation is speculation based on that
Should've went AMD with the PS3. Problem solved. PS4 fast enough for PS2 emulation.
They should have done A LOT of different things with the PS3.
Ive been thinking this for this entire generation..... Why are they holding it back?
Its the best "30th celebration" of Playstation! Ive been predicting them releasing this!
Cant see them asking for money for it! BUT more as a GOLD FEATURE tick box for the next PS6!? i mean when you all get portable etc
I believe there is an emulator because if some guys can make it to PC, it is sure that Sony devs can do this. Why they delay it, who knows?
Sony has no idea what they're doing and they haven't since the ps4 pro
Tell me how much they don't know what they're doing even though they are console platform leader and made the best games of past generation and this generation (so far). :D
@@sermerlin1 I think you're confusing Sony with Nintendo. Cause it's the Switch that is about to beat the all time record for best selling console currently held by PS2 and it's Nintendo that consistently puts out 9/10 games.
Sony being ahead of Xbox has more to do with how badly Xbox screwed up in the last generation and how they continue to screw up this generation.
@@sermerlin14 year old console with 2 good exclusives lol
@@sermerlin1 against what? Redfall, Halo Infinite, and Quantum Break? Sure, they may have "more" releases, but it's BS like Spiderman 2, God of War Ragnarok, Concord, Dustborn, and a bunch of forgotten mediocre franchises like Killzone overall and scam games like Life of Black Tiger. The market is bone dry. At least Xbone has backward compatibility (provided you have an online connection). TLOU 1 and 2 don't need another remaster. Games like Killzone 3 need a remaster.
ps1 ps2 ps3 using powerpc arch, while ps4 ps5 ps6 uses x86. but with AVX512 it can emulate ps3 more close to ps3's hw capability
PS6 isn't out yet
Please don’t say BWC for backwards compatibility bro 🥴
guys. ps4 pro you could change the hard drive. thessd on ps5 is soldered ans there is so many ps5s on the used market with damaged ssds and error codes that wont play gamea. i am disgusted with Sony.
WHAT KIND OF COMPATABILITY?