How educated was Joseph Smith? Ep. 117
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- In this episode, Dave reviews what history tells us about Joseph Smith’s formal education, non-formal education, and what Joseph’s contemporaries said about his level of education/intelligence.
Transcript and notes: bit.ly/3emrcFy
Brain Hales infographic: bit.ly/3whJoYL
“Joseph Smith’s Education,” via Evidence Central: bit.ly/3u9CcvX
“Naturalistic Explanations of the Origin of the Book of Mormon: A Longitudinal Study,” by Brian Hales (BYU Studies): bit.ly/3cxusP0 / bit.ly/3u2FJwa
“Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon?: The Critics and Their Theories,” by Louis C. Midgley: bit.ly/3rBAEJw
“A New Witness For Christ,” by Francis Kirkham (both Vol. 1 & 2). Great sources in these books.
“Curiously Unique: Joseph Smith as Author of the Book of Mormon,” by Brian Hales (Interpreter Journal): bit.ly/3fsP10m
“‘Proving to the World’: The Unique Declaration in Doctrine and Covenants Section 20,” by Brian Hales: bit.ly/3lZg8l2
“Theories and Assumptions: A Review of William L. Davis’s ‘Visions in a Seer Stone,’” by Brian Hales (Interpreter Journal): bit.ly/2PzxkkV
“Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited: The Evidence for Ancient Origins,” Noel B. Reynolds (editor).
Notes:
-Orasmus Turner (who said Joseph “possessed of less than ordinary intellect”) claimed that Joseph “was a very passable exhorter in evening [Methodist] meetings” (Orsamus Turner, History of the Pioneer Settlement, pg. 214). Joseph Smith biographer Richard Bushman said that Joseph “is not known to have preached a sermon before the Church is organized in 1830. He had no reputation as a preacher,” (Richard Bushman, “A Historian’s Perspective of Joseph Smith,” on “Joseph’s Smith’s Relationship With God,” CD2, track 8). bit.ly/3cAu69V
-Joseph’s family moved to Lebanon, NH, around 1812. “As our children had, in great measure, been debarred from the privilege of schools, we began to make every arrangement to attend to this important duty. We established our second son Hyrum in an academy at Hanover; and the rest, that were of sufficient age, we were sending to a common school that was quite convenient” (“History of Joseph Smith by His Mother,” Lucy Mack Smith, p. 51). Joseph would have been 7 years old at this time.
-For my thoughts on the “God of the gaps” argument, see the notes section of the previous episode, “How have Book of Mormon origin theories changed over time?”
-“...Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same. I presume our family presented an aspect as singular as any that ever lived upon the face of the earth -- all seated in a circle, father, mother, sons and daughters, and giving the most profound attention to a boy, eighteen years of age, who had never read the Bible through in his life: he seemed much less inclined to the perusal of books than any of the rest of our children, but far more given to meditation and deep study. … Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship...with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them.” (“History of Joseph Smith by His Mother,” Lucy Mack Smith, p 82-83).
Some use the latter part of the above quote to argue that Joseph made up the Book of Mormon. Given the context of the quote, it seems to me that during these “amusing recitals,” Joseph was only relating what had been revealed to him by the Lord on the subject - not telling stories to entertain. It is also worth noting that the “amusing recitals” only occurred “occasionally,” and in the preliminary MS of her book, Lucy wrote that, “it will be recollected by the reader that all that I mentioned and much more took place within the compass of one short year” (bit.ly/2PeOUel). At worst, this quote falls quite short of explaining how the Book of Mormon came to be.
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Also, why would joseph scheme a master plan at age 14?
@@IDK-vh8pb exactly, thanks for commenting
Ask The Spirit of Religion.
Don't be naive.
It’s almost as if. The Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God
🤣
There are several agricultural and zoological, not to mention historical and theological, claims made in the BOM that have been proven to be FALSE. For example, plant life described in the BOM, as a matter of fact, is known not to have existed in the Americas until hundreds of years after the events in the BOM are purported have happened. The same goes for animal life described. In other words, the book of mormon has been proven to be FALSE, unlike the Bible, which has been proven correct through the archaeological record as new findings are unearthed.
"Almost", huh? Not quite.
I am now a High School graduate of eighteen years of age. I have more education than did Joseph Smith did at age twenty-three years. If I tried to produce a work like the Book of Mormon with my current level of education, it might still be immensely difficult to replicate, to near fulness, the Book of Mormon text. From a secular standpoint I am more educated than was Joseph Smith, as I have described, and while dictating what I believe to be personal revelation it has been done with assistance of material available to myself, which are pretty good despite my lack of wealth. Joseph Smith had hardly anything to assist him which was physically available like what I have. I believe, then, that the Book of Mormon is more than an epic story from a scholarly standpoint, I believe, unequivocally, that the Book of Mormon is the word and work of God and a miracle in its translation.
He plagiarized much of the BOM word-for-word from "The Late War Between the United States and Great Britain" by Gilbert J. Hunt. Joseph Smith, Jr. is a fraud. He was previously convicted of a felony in New York for being a "disorderly person and an imposter". The first fact above is validated by the second one. Joseph Smith, Jr.'s character, or lack thereof, is clearly evident by his history.
Great video, Heavenly Father shows his greatest works through our weaknesses and through unexpected means.
I don't believe he was learned enough. I believe he was a prophet.
Maybe he was both
@@cinnamondan4984 He was both unlearned and a fraud.
@@WatchList-xf8ic How can he be both at the same time
@@cinnamondan4984 How can he be both unlearned and a fraud? Easy, by plagiarizing much of the BOM from "The Late War Between the United States and Great Britain" by Gilbert J. Hunt.
I remember reading from Lucy smith that Joseph had never read the bible through. but after the event's of the first vision and his encounters with angels, he could basically open to any page in the bible and dictate it perfectly. And that every night, for a long time Joseph would lead in a family home evening. And just teach the most beautiful lessons.
But I mean, I guess that happens when you're literally being TUTORED BY GOD AND MORONI !!
Mohammed also was unlearned and illiterate. The things he taught were the overflow of things he heard from Christians and Jews he spent time around. The same is true of Joseph Smith, Jr. His head was filled with much religious dogma from the tent preachers and revivals he spent much time attending prior to 1823.
Joseph Smith was not "learned" at the time the Book of Mormon was brought forth, but there's no question he possessed a sound mind. And all the quotes from apostates about his upbringing and work habits are just the lies you would expect from them - he was known as a very hard-working young man and was bred that way in his family. I am so glad the Lord Jesus Christ used an unlearned youth to bring forth a work so powerful as the Book of Mormon. It was inspired and written by prophets by the gift of the Holy Ghost, it was abridged by a prophet of God, and brought forth by a modern day prophet. And it is self-evidently true. I've studied it over my lifetime and am amazed daily by its depth and inspiration. It contains the key to testimony, to recovery of one's faith, to repentance and restoration of blessings, to revelation, to happiness, and the list goes on an on. It's all right there, as millions will testify.
So true!
There’s some really great points in the Book of Mormon study guide that help prove it was translated and not his own imagination.
Elaborate.
All because someone has not got an education does not mean he does not have powerful imagination.
If you have to go to another channel in order to get your information, could we agree the current channel is inadequate for getting information?
@@BrendonKing it’s not a channel it’s a book and it breaks up each verse of the Book of Mormon and explains customs, traditions, language, and such. It’s very eye opening.
@@Cyrusmagi exactly my thoughts, but you’ll have to look into another video this channel has that goes further into what it takes to create such a book. And even compares it to J.R.Tolkien and other famous, and amazing authors.
@@Cyrusmagi yes exactly. And isn’t Lucy Mac Smith recorded as saying with he was a boy he would tell very articulate fantastic stories?
I'm no longer LDS, but critics cannot produce the bridge between Joseph's limited education and the Book of Mormon. Writing certainly didn't come easy for Joseph, but he was certainly glib enough to convince others of his testimony.
While being at home for years after his surgery Joseph’s parents were educated and his brother was at Dartmouth, and he also had relatives
Sure we can. He plagiarized entire sections of the BOM from "The Late War Between the United States and Great Britain" by Gilbert J. Hunt.
@@WatchList-xf8ic He didn't exactly plagiarize the "Late War", but he wrote in the exact style and phraseology within a few years of its publication . There are similar words, but it's relatively little.
awesome video this makes a lot of sense
The video is nothing but lies. He uses quotes from the palmyra project that are full of slander towards the smith family while ignoring the vast amount of quotes that say the exact opposite. Joseph smith was extremely bright and wel educated maybe not in the worlds standards of formal education but in raw intelligence and wisdom. Joseph was a prophet of god and the lord knew what he was doing.
I’ve never really understood the whole narrative that Jos couldn’t write a basic letter etc in his late teens/early twenties... His writings later in life (keeping in mind he died young) were very sophisticated and showed a rich vocabulary and depth of knowledge. I seriously doubt he was ever illiterate.
I agree, not illiterate, just unstudious. Donald Trump (so obvious when he was younger and healthier), Adolf Hitler, and George W. Bush are other examples of people who possessed superior native intelligence but were not very learned. Bush was closed minded and lacking in curiosity in addition to suffering from years of drug and alcohol abuse for much of his life, but he got respectable grades at Yale. The quality of Hitler's writing, even after it had been edited by others who were more literarily competent, has been repeatedly panned by reviewers although he commanded the loyalty of top aides with fairly impressive IQ scores and was a spellbinding orator. Trump, although criticized for big gaps in his knowledge base especially where foreign affairs are concerned, spontaneously answered questions in his younger years with impressive fluency and in fairly complex sentences for oral communication. So I do think both admirers and critics may have overstated Smith's cognitive dullness for different reasons, although I do agree he was not literate enough to have written the Book of Mormon.
It was Emma Smith who said he could not compose a coherent letter much less a book. She should know she was married to him.
I know Joseph Smith was a true Prophet. Thankful for the restoration. God bless brothers and sisters 🕊🙏
This was very informative. I have found that Sandra Tanner has some wonderful research and teachings about this subject. I encourage all members to look her up and hear her full story.
Off question but the outro song, extended version of the intro, is actually p cool what's it called?
The Book of Mormon came about exactly as Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery said it did; with Joseph looking through 2 clear stones at the plates and saying the words he saw while Oliver wrote them down. There was NO other brown rock or hat, that's false. Joseph would use a hat to block out the sunlight, at times, but didn't look at any stone in any hat. Likewise, Joseph ONLY received the revelations he received by the Holy Ghost, not from himself as he would and could never come up with the genius things he said.
While I strongly believe The Book of Mormon to be the word of God, I think that it’s important to realize that Joseph Smith’s education, though informal, was extensive. He attended religious meetings, Bible classes, and Sunday schools as often as occasion would permit. He also read the Bible himself, and had conversations with ministers.
If we are to follow the example of the prophets we need to realize that none of them came across their knowledge of God without working hard to gain that knowledge. Joseph Smith may not have been burdened down with the brain washing education that governments or people in power chose for him, but he worked to gain the education that God wanted for him. He had the education necessary to ask the right questions and understand the answers.
@@jameswinesgreenspunjhs8954
The answer to your question is that without prophets people like you seem to have a hard time understanding even basic scriptures.
For example: John 3:13 doesn’t say that no man had ever been to heaven. It said that no man had ever “ascended” to heaven except Jesus. Jesus had to ascend back to heaven first so that we all could ascend back to heaven after we had become fallen man. Even a rudimentary knowledge of the Bible should let you know that Jesus was not the only being that descended from heaven, but he is the only man with keys to heaven and hell.
Likewise John 8: 21-23 doesn’t say that man’s soul didn’t come from God’s heaven. The point of this scripture is actually that if ye believe not (in Jesus), ye shall die in your sins (vs 24). It teaches the same principle that John 3:13 taught. It means that Jesus is the only way to heaven (see vs John 3: 14 and 15).
You only had to read two more verses to get the full context of what he was saying, yet because you follow blind guides you missed the whole point.
Your lack of eyes to understand doesn’t just extend to the scriptures that you pretend to believe. They extend to the words of Jesus that you reject. You don’t understand Doctrine and Covenants 84: 2-5 any more than you understand the Bible.
@@jameswinesgreenspunjhs8954
Educate me.
@@jameswinesgreenspunjhs8954
I ask, because none of the scriptures that you refer to add up to any of the points you’re making. So... it seems you’re bad at the Bible too. I’m sorry.
This is an excellent comment. And btw Joseph smith was very very intelligent.
@@jameswinesgreenspunjhs8954
I’m not disrespecting you. I’m pointing out that your arguments suck, and that you can’t come to any of the conclusions you’ve come up with about the Bible if you read the Bible with any sense of logic or thinking at all. This is probably the kindest thing anyone’s ever done for you. Usually it’s a parent’s duty to teach a child how to use their head. In the search for truth you can’t look to sources of truth simply to try to prove points. You’ve got to look to sources of truth to find what ideas you have that are wrong and learn what you don’t know yet. That’s how you search for truth. It starts, however, with understanding what you are reading in the first place, which means you have to recognize context including past (edit: or present) tense words like “hath.”
I appreciate all your videos, your intellect and optimism. You are truly a happy warrior, which I find uplifting. Peace
Awesome video guys! I love what you do for helping address church history questions! I do think its kind of funny though that because of the current arguments against Joseph Smith, we almost have to try and prove how dumb he was. Its definitely an odd situation lol!
But its also amazing to see how God works through imperfect people and helps them do amazing things!
It’s a horrible argument. Joseph smith was extremely intelligent and there are loads of quotes from people who actually knew him to demonstrate this instead of quotes from casual observers in palmyra given by people who blatantly lied about the smith family and Joseph. This video is very dishonest. Joseph smith was a prophet of god with all the dignity and glory, we don’t have to down play his remarkable ability in order to have a testimony.
Joseph preferred the school of God
Exactly and that says it all. As Thomas Sowell says, the road to hell is paved with ivy league degrees.
Lucy said Joseph had never read the bible in sequence. Start to end. He had clearly read the Bible
So is Lucy lying?
@@elderinisrael No. I think you're just misunderstanding.
I believe she said that Joseph had never "read the bible in sequence" which means that he hadn't read the entire Bible cover to cover. Joseph, like most people that go to church weekly, reads portions of the Bible, but don't read the entire thing.
So she's not lying. She also talks about Joseph reading the Bible in her history- just not "in sequence".
You are awesome! Love what you do. You are doing such a great work. I really enjoy all of your episodes. Thank you for using your talents and faith to bless others and help gather Israel in such a powerful, uplifting, authentic, relatable way!
Wow, thank you so much for the kind words! Your encouragement means a lot. It's a joy to be able to share and connect with amazing people like you. If there's ever a specific topic you'd like us to cover, feel free to let us know. Appreciate your support on this journey! 😊🙏
Whenever I hear people talking about Joseph Smiths education I always think about the fact that people in those days were very very well versed in reading the scriptures every day i think he knew the Bible inside out....
Yes. I agree 100 percent.
Yeah but back then, you just can't go to the store and pick up a bible. these things are worth a fortune. it's like buying a computer.
@@charlemagnetheFranks no they weren’t. I am a historian and during the time of Joseph Smith many families had a family Bible. Also Smith was very active in the Methodist tent revivals, as I have read. He knew scripture well.
@@prayerwarrior7778 I'm not denying it. But no way that he would qualify as an educated preacher. This kid was very talented if that's just the case. But he did more than preach. I will still be amazed in comparison to Stephen King writing his books safe in his tower. And Joseph Smith writing his books being arrested tard and feathered and told to leave his properties of many times. And still made a book that flows as it does. Please make up a Bible like book and do it within 70 days. That would help me out a lot. And I want you to do your farm chores at the same time as well. Is Joseph Smith a savant? What did he get the information from on high? He has to be an enigma. Was he insane? Or did he really do it for real? That is my concern. the Bible and the book of Mormon to me are two of the strangest books I've ever investigated. That's all I want to say. Thank you.
@@charlemagnetheFranks you are not denying it because compare buying a Bible back them to owning a computer? He used the Bible to plagiarize many parts of the BOM. I know my Bible decently and just reading 1 and 2 Nephi I can hardly get through a page without a twist plagurized scripture from 1 Cor, Matthew or Isaiah.
Love the stove quote.
Geez, this is so mean! I'm glad I'm not a prophet, to have all these people on public record calling me a moron.
Rachel Rasmussen. It isn't mean. These points needed to be made because some who refuse to accept Joseph Smith's prophethood and argue against it claim The Book of Mormon was purely the work of Joseph Smith without help from God. It's true Joseph wasn't smart enough to create The Book of Mormon.
@@Hamann9631 yeah, but it's not fun to be proven right this way. Like if several people went on record proving Jesus was a virgin birth by testifying that Bible Joseph had no penis.
To be more credible, this video needs to be redone to include the study he did alongside his brother who was attending Dartmouth. That is what the people who leave are caught up on. (I am a believer with many friends/family members who have left)
Did you just show the Captain Kidd book you carefully ignored when talking about possible ways Joseph could have known about Camorah (that's how he spelt it) and Moroni in Africa?
Word print analysis debunks your nuisance claim.
None of Captain Kidds journals actual used either of those names.
Not a very shining report of the prophet! Lol
Hmmmm. 🤔. Interesting.
What is an "LDS scholar"? Since the LDS religion keeps documents that are purported to be authentic historical LDS religious documents under lock and key AND BYU does NOT offer an M-Div or a ThD or any other LDS religious desgrees, what, then, is an "LDS scholar"? Is this just a retired lawyer or a retired dentist who has read the LDS sacred writings over and over again? What sort of formal training or education does an "LDS scholar" have???
I believe by the power of god and Jesus Christ he have done it
First... like it matters
Well it does matter because obviously Joseph Smith didn't write the manuscript and he obviously didn't translate it from Golden Plates given the fact that he didn't use the plates and it's not a historical document given the fact that Pres. Nelson came out and said "It is not a textbook of history".
So what did Joseph Smith have in his magic hat?
@@danite1742 I actually just meant "first comment." But since you decided, two weeks later, to rant on my comment, allow me to share my testimony with you in relation to your concerns.
1. Have you never looked at a textbook? The Book of Mormon reads more like a journal- type record as opposed to a textbook, which simply lays out facts without personal narration. I'm pretty darn sure that President Nelson was remarking that this is a grouping of personal records, not simply an outline of events and stories.
2. Saints Unscripted has plenty of videos addressing your exact concerns. I encourage you to watch them with an open mind, instead of going at it with the intent to attacking everything.
3. Said videos lay out your concerns, which have been brought up for going on 200 years and easily puts them to rest. Again, go watch the videos.
4. My understanding is that a seer stone was in the hat. Beyond that, I imagine maybe some felt, or animal skin, maybe some lint or dandruff. Idk. What I do know is that he didn't fit over 500 glow-in-the-dark pages of paper with luminescent ink from which he would have cheated from, if that's your concern.
@@DannyAGray You don't need glow in the dark pages. You just need a white top hat made with thin material. With someone observing it would seem he is looking in the dark and can't see anything, but the reality is you can see just fine. Go ahead give it a try, put a white sheet over your head... Can you see? Yep!
How also do you suppose the words of Christ from the book of Mark show up word for word in the book of Nephi 500+ years before Christ was here to say those words. If it didn't happen the way you have been taught and if Joseph did read a manuscript from his hat and if the original story was manufactured, would you still be able to see the beauty of what the church is today?
If it was manufactured could you see how the Book of Mormon is TRUE because it brings a man closer to God by abiding by it's precepts?
A Prophet is someone that professes or teaches of Christ, a Revelator is someone that gets thoughts and ideas, and a Seer is someone that can foresee what will happen based on their actions. Revelation comes when we study things out and gains knowledge and understanding. Just like someone knows their family can receive revelation for their family, and bishop can receive revelation for his ward, and a business man can receive revelation for his business, and the President of the church can receive revelation for the Church.
Can you see that just like we are prophets, seers, and revelators of our own lives, the President of the Church becomes the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator of the Church.
So if it was manufactured can you still see how we have a True Living Prophet on earth today?
So my biggest question is that if the first vision, angle moroni visitation, the Golden Plates, and the translation was all made up. Can we still believe the Book of Mormon to be True, The church to be true, and the Prophet to be True?
@@danite1742 so, you're saying the prophets can still be true, even presently, in what they say about the book of Mormon? Would they also be true, then, having said that if the book of Mormon were fabricated the whole church would be a waste (as I do believe they have said)? Adapting, I believe there were several first-hand witnesses who testified the hat to be black and was impossible to see through (again, I believe this is covered in a few Saints Unscripted videos you should definitely check out).
@@DannyAGray What makes someone a TRUE prophet is that they teach and profess the teachings of Jesus Christ. I was educated about this when I was a missionary back in 1997 when we were told that we are prophets because we were teaching of Christ. My mission companion found out that is actually what it means to be a prophet.
Revelation is interesting because it is based on your education and knowledge that formulate Ideas. So revelation on children being baptized in a same sex household could be different for President Monson who was an Advertising Executive vs. President Nelson who was a Medical Doctor with a knowledge and understanding of human biology. This can also mean that what was revealed at one point in time can change from another point in time as understand and knowledge changes. This is why sometimes even leaders in the church have simply made mistakes. This helps us to understand that revelation is progressive.
If a Prophet or General Authority has a revelation that we will never go to the moon and we actually do go to the moon it doesn't mean they don't receive revelation, they may not have the proper knowledge to receive the correct revelation. We know if a revelation is true when it progress our spiritual glory.
Jesus Christ taught about the Prodigal son and we understand the teaching and it helps us to grow spiritually and that is why the teaching from Christ is TRUE. Now if we went around looking for this father and two sons Christ talked about and come to realize the story wasn't real, then we have missed the point.
What makes the Church true is that it provides spiritual growth.
What makes President Nelson a true Prophet, Seer, and Revelator is if he reveals things that will help my spiritual progress and growth.
What makes the Book of Mormon True is the fact that they were produced by the gift and power of God and that abiding by its precepts will lead a man to God.
This becomes the real Truth that we are all on a spiritual journey and the Church Prophets, and Scriptures just become to tools to grow spiritually and if it dose that then that is what makes it true.
So it you build your testimony on the spiritual truth rather then the physical proof you can overcome any concerns you or anyone could possibly have.
Because at that point it no longer matters how we received the Book of Mormon, or if it is Historical. We can also understand that President Hinckley was wrong about "if it happened it is wonderful" and "if it didn't happen it's the biggest fraud"
So what if we accepted the story to be fabricated of the gold plates, Folklore Magic, and Guardian Spirits? Is it the tool that God needed to attract people to grow the Church to what it is today. If Joseph Smith was a fraud then the Church was really brought out of darkness didn't it? But it continues on as members turn to the Spiritual Truth.
The hat was white: Look at this photo and you will see the stress and disappointment on Nelsons face:
m.imgur.com/Xnjo2kA
I had a faith crisis and through that I came to the realization of this new spiritual truth that members need to understand.
Smart has nothing to do with educated. Read some random PhD dissertations to see my point.
How much schooling did Peter, James and John have? What about John the Baptist, who supposedly lived all his life in the desert as a ascetic? Name any prophet of all and make yourself this questions, if you want.
Well did Peter James and John write the scriptures?
I believe what you said to be true.
Both parents were teachers and his brother Hyrum went to Dartmouth college! His uncle was a professor at Dartmouth. Why you have to make him out as uneducated, I don’t understand. While his leg was recovering I wonder how many books he read?
How do you explain Hyrum going to Dartmouth?
He didn't. Hyrum attended a charity school associated with Dartmouth, for two years between the ages of 12-14. That is not the same as attending college. It was not even a true Preparatory School, according to Dartmouth's own records, less than 10% of the attendees ever graduated, and less than half of those that did went on to actually attend Dartmouth proper. Charities Schools, as the name suggests, were free schools for the poor and indignant. They did not receive the same level of financial and staffing support, nor did they provide the same level of education as a true Preparatory, which itself would have been significantly different than attending the College.
Joseph Sr (like Hyrum) did graduate from 6th grade, which qualified him to teach elementary school, but had no additional education. Lucy graduated from 8th grade, which also qualified her to teach up to 8th grade herself. Hyrum was the only child to graduate from the 6th, most like Joseph only formally graduated from the 3rd.
As for the 'uncle', he was actually the cousin once removed of Joseph Sr. While the family connection likely helped Hyrum get in, the finacial distress resulted in Hyrum returning homes to work after two years. There is no evidence on any sort of close contact between the Smith family and this cousin. Joseph Sr, his own father, and all his brothers were farmers. There were extended family member who were better educated and more financially successful, but that was pretty much it.
As far as what books Joseph may have read while recovering, according to his mother, they only owned two books, one of which being the Bible. There is no record of any lending libraries existing during that period either. Given Joseph's youth, the answer would likely be none.
Well… how about when he went and lived with his uncle after his surgery to recover? But thank you for supporting the fact that they were educated!
I don’t think anyone is arguing that he was smart. He obviously wasn’t. People are arguing that he forged the Book of Mormon 😂
Your not wrong, however I think part of proving or disproving the authenticity of The Book of Mormon is wether he had the capability to do so. Its like a small question hooked to the bigger question
Hmm.. I don't typically hear from critics that JS wrote the BoM on his own. Far more commonly is the hypothesis that he worked with others.
ie: if we're operating under the assumption that JS didn't have the skills to write the BoM on his own, then what's more *probable*?
A: The book was actually written by an ancient people we haven't discovered any archaeological evidence of yet?
B: The book was actually written with help of ghost writers whos identity we haven't discovered yet?
Must've been Solomon Spaulding colluding with Joseph's mom or something.
Kenneth Hilker. A. There is a large amount of archaeological evidence. North, South, and Central America have ruins of ancient civilizations. I hope you will stop lying.
B. The ghost writers would have been found out already if they were there. If there were ghost writers, they would have been made known by dissenters.
@@Hamann9631 there are no lies in that comment. I asked a question.
A: none of the archeological evidence of Central and South America has been linked to BoM stories. I was referring to this video, which highlights that archeological research in that region is still young. Saints Unscripted has suggested they are hopeful future archeology will uncover details that link the two. th-cam.com/video/C3zEczFpwf0/w-d-xo.html
B: true, you can claim if there was a ghost writer, they would have been found by now. Similarly, I can claim if there were Jewish people building cities in South America, we would have found their relics or DNA by now.
Both would just be assertions though, which is why I asked as a question. Which is more likely: that we're missing an entire civilization, or we're missing a few ghost writers?
Joseph Smith was a religious genius.
If he wasn’t a prophet then he was a genius.
None of this is problematical if, as many contemporaries asseverated, one of Smith's close associates stole the unpublished manuscript of a more educated but recently deceased author, which was subjected to further editing by Sydney Rigdon. Smith just had to be the charismatic front man who could with a straight face and an unswerving voice assert the story of its miraculous origin.
The only time Sydney Rigdon saw the BOM was after it was published.
Evidence? Oh, just another desperate theory. Got it.
Believe what you want! If this church makes you more loving kind and a better person then it is the right church for you, for me it made me a liar! I always lied to the bishop to get my temple recommend like I guess most do!
It is just not for me
My best
He had the equivalent of grade 8 by today's standards.
How did you calculate that?
Exactly what Brett M said. How did you calculate that?
@@jameswinesgreenspunjhs8954 yep and don’t forget the Book of Abraham.
@@jameswinesgreenspunjhs8954 yes. And it’s like the verses in Ezekiel 37:15-21 have nothing to do with other books. But they believe that God is going to join Judah and Joseph the tribes together, it is proof of the BOM. But that is circular reasoning because according to the Bible, no tribes of Israel went to the Americas, as the promise land for The Israelites has ALWAYS BEEN Israel. And not only that but Native Americans are not Semitic but Asian. And none of these Native tribes have ever practiced Judaism.
One guess: Oliver Coudrey.
🤔Ummm. He had a unpublished manuscript in his magic hat with a false bottom...am I close. 🙄
How would he even read it
@@manofculture467 It's a magic trick and the stone is the distraction. I need a reason to reach into the hat and the stone becomes my perfect distraction.
So he kept papers inside the hat and then shoved his face into it to block light? Also, the people who wrote as he translated saw inside the hat.
@@manofculture467 What is your theory?
?
Look up Grant Palmer... He outlines where more than 75% of the book of Mormon came from with proof.
Less proof than possible theories.
@@brettmajeske3525 I believe Joseph did it through the Urim and Thummim God had given him to translate the Book of Mormon.
He checked out several books from the Palmyra public library and copied from them. I can prove it.
@@nirtlocj Palmyra didn't have a public library in 1829. It would have one for almost another 100 years.
@@brettmajeske3525 Joseph did it through the Urim and Thummim a device that reads the timelines as well as interprets records. .A device that came from God. Sort of like a library.
It is heart breaking to see apologists use the same tired arguments to defend the Book of Mormon’s supposed authenticity.
The Mormon prophets have done horrible things to justify things like racism to deny the priesthood to blacks, as well as fighting against women being equals still to this day.
The prophets also deny basic decency to the LGBTQ community, yet we’re supposed to believe they are men of God and communicate with Him and interpret His will? Give me a break...
So many members act hypocritically and with hubris towards outsiders and their beliefs because Mormons supposedly know the truth, yet are so easily deceived and made fools of in so many instances. The pride is disgusting and unChrist like.
The Mormon Church seems to be no better than Protestant denominations telling non-Christians they will burn in hell forever for non-belief.
And the Church is so cruel towards those who are ex-communicated simply because the Church cannot or will not even try to satisfy the many questions of members, not to mention the many inconsistencies and contradictions.
Anyone that prophes or teach of Christ is considered a PROPHET, anyone that gets new ideas and thoughts are a REVELATOR and any one that can look into the future to see the outcome of our actions is considered a SEER.
Scientists show that we are the only creatures on earth that do these things and no one completely knows how we are able to formulate taught and Ideas, but for now we call this God.
Joseph Smith explained that God doesn't just give us revelation but we must study it out in our mind. In other words revelation is obtained through knowledge and education. You can receive revelation over you own family because you have spent the time getting to know your family. A Bishop receives revelation over a ward, but he can only receive revelation for people he really knows and understands well otherwise his advice is like throwing darts in the dark. Stake pres receive revelation over the stake, and the President of the church receives revelation over the Church. Like I said revelation comes with education and so some leaders thought that people choose to be gay and so of course as you can see the uneducated mind of Monson on the LGBT community is going to be different then Nelson, because Nelson is a Medical Doctor and understands biology. As the leaders continue to learn more about the LGBT community then they will receive different revelation.
Everyone is a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and the President of the church is the only one on earth that holds the keys to the Church, because he has been a general authority for years and has worked side by side learning how to run the church. If they put you or me in that position we would have no clue. This is why we can sustain President Nelson as the Prophet Seer and Revelator and the only one on earth that hold the keys.
I am glad to hear that you don't need to be told about Folklore Magic, Gold Bible Treasures, and Guardian Spirits to believe that you can use the church as a tool to grow spiritually if you choose and that is what makes the church TRUE.
The Book of Mormon is the most correct Book on earth and will bring a man closer to God by abiding by it's precepts then any other book. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to bring a man closer to God and that is what makes it the most correct. It is NOT true that the book of Mormon is a Historical Book, but what makes the Book of Mormon true is that it is a spiritual book that can bring you to God if we choose.
You are entering into a new understanding that your thoughts and beliefs are within you and you are becoming self aware of the love for all people including the LGBT community. This comes because of your knowledge and understanding of the people within that community. Remember a lesson as you enter this new understanding is that your personal revelations suppressed the President of the church revelation when your education and knowledge on the subject matter is greater.
Joseph Smith taught " I teach them correct principles and allow them to govern themselves"
Use the church as a tool for your spiritual growth because it is True. It can help you grow spiritually if you want that.
Use the Book of Mormon and other scriptures as your own personal guide through your personal spiritual journey if you so choose.
Govern yourself and don't criticize the leaders, the book of mormon, or the church because when you govern yourself you can no longer criticize others but you can find peace within the organization.
The LDS Church belies are actually a Universalist teaching that God loves us all so much that he closed and sealed the door to the outer darkness of Hell making possible that all will be saved.
The LDS church teaches the gospel of the Kingdom of God which is to grow our spiritual glory to the point of the glory of God so we can receive our inheritance and rule with Him.
Christianity teaches a Wide gate to Hell that most will go. They also teach that they receive salvation through belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is the death, burial, and resurrection.
If you read the New Testament it will reveal to you that the correct gospel is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.
Not the gospel of Jesus Christ. No where in the Bible will you find the concept to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, but you will see throughout the scriptures to preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God which is only earned though our righteousness. Also remember that it's what you believe to be righteousness not what someone told you is righteousness.
@@danite1742 You’re still excusing the serious immoral wrongs of these so-called “prophets”, “seers”, “revelators”. I’ve read the scriptures many times over and unfortunately, I have come to the same conclusion; that the scriptures are of men. They are not divinely inspired or from God.
I could continue to believe in God if the scriptures (including the BOM) were at least morally consistent, but they are not.
I could get past all the logical problems and contradictions if God and his appointed prophets at least always acted as moral as can be, but they don’t. If they didn’t do or didn’t advocate for horrible immoral things like genocide, slavery, racism, sexism, etc, I could see past all the logical absurdities, but they don’t.
Also, these “prophets” always conveniently fit their own views and biases into “divine revelation”, even though it is supposedly of God. These prophets should know better and know the truth, yet still work their own warped biases like racism and sexism into doctrine or “the word of God”. Give me a fucking break.
Even on just a purely moral spectrum, Christianity and the LDS Church fail and fall short time and time again, while also simultaneously being illogical and absurd. They both fail at even adhering to basic moral principles and common human decency; let alone following higher moral principles.
More and more people are tired of the excuses, and Christianity as well as the LDS Church have to contend with the fact that the non-religious community is growing, and will only grow bigger with the hypocrisy that is exhibited by Christians/Mormons and their religious leaders.
@@Hesaysalot so every church is wrong? Every church had some form of oppression or evil-doing The Catholics had the crusades and used tithing as means of personal money many churches did not give women any sort of position until later in their histories the protestants didn't allow women to be deacons until the 1930's the Episcopal church 1974 most importantly you must know prophets are human and can make mistakes they aren't Christ they are not perfect they are like you and me and just like Judah they can be wrong in what God wants them to do and sometimes also God has a reason the Mormon church was already having states give them kill orders blacks were very much oppressed back then can you imagine if they gave black people the priesthood that would have angered the anti-Mormon population even more that for one is for you to ask God as to why. As for members of the LBGTQ community, what do you mean by treating them unkindly? I watch conferences and never once have I seen any form of hatred towards them during the conference heck I have seen the opposite Henry B Eyring said don't see them as Gay but see them as children of God and that to me is saying don't treat them any differently and if you mean them being anti-gay marriage it is clear that marriage according to their faith is between a man and women but even in the bible it says this 1 Corinthians 6:9 that says men who practice homosexuality will not inherit God's kingdom Romans 1:26 says the same I am sorry but your argument doesn't make any sense to me
@@Hesaysalot Tell me are you perfect in every way, without error or the frailties of every human? I can guarantee that you are not perfect, then why do expect prophets to be perfect? They are human and they do err.
@@elderinisrael What does me being perfect have anything to do with what I said? I never claimed I was perfect.
You’re just distracting from what many Mormons and Church leaders have done.
You have no way to actually make a sound rebuttal of what I said, so you have to go after me personally instead.
People like you are the problem and I will call you guys out. Sorry if it offends you for someone to point out your misdeeds and failures.
He was on drugs and saw a so called vision
Right.... he then jotted down the 588-page book. That's what people on drugs do, right?
Joseph Smith approached genius levels of intelligence and I also believe he was a prophet of god. This video is poorly put together, you have picked and chosen what quotes you wanted to in order to illustrate your belief that Joseph smith couldn’t have written the Book of Mormon because many many many MANY quotes exist that say the exact OPPOSITE. Why you chose quotes from the palmyra project that were all tainted in slanders against the smith family is beyond me. I know the common narrative many church members want to believe is that Joseph couldn’t have written the Book of Mormon because he was not very bright. It’s just not true. If your purpose in creating this channel is to bring people to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ then tell the truth. This video is absolutely disgusting 🤮 and yes I know exactly what you did.
lol 😂
U need help buddy if u think js was a prophet lol 😂
I think the problem is people confuse being educated with intelligence. Now most intelligent people get educated, but the two do not mean the same. Smith was intelligent but not educated. Just because he was not educated doesn't mean he could not craft well thought out stories, thar is where intelligence comes in.