Oh and I now have a TH-cam membership if you want to support the channel and watch me make music/sounds in monthly livestreams. Just click the JOIN button under the video to learn more :)
This is actually how I write a lot of my music. I design a sound first (as sound design is one of my favorite musical activities). Then start a loop. Then design another complementary sound, and layer. Similar process, but it completely revolves around the sounds that I make during the process. The song structure comes from adding and removing layers. Occasionally I'll layer all of the parts, and then subtractively arrange the parts/layers. Then go back in and add fills, sparkly bits, and other items to make it feel a bit more organic when the parts change. It's kind of a minimal process, but then I really like minimal music. :)
@e7950 What would make you think that from what I wrote above? I design analog synthesizers, and write electronic music on synthesizers. I design every sound that goes into my music from scratch. (that's what synthesizers are for) I do also enjoy getting lost in sound creation, as I find it therapeutic though. I did have 14 years of rigid classical piano training by a symphony pianist. However, I prefer to create my own music to reciting classical music. For the past 20 years, I've been writing electronic music of many genres on electronic instruments including my own. And yes, I also make what could be considered sound effects as well, though I generally incorporate them into more traditional types of electronic music also. I write a lot of my music by designing a sound as I said above, then get inspired by that sound, and its possibilities musically. Then procede to make more sounds, percussive sounds, bass sounds, leads, pads, etc. and fill them into a loop before then going onto to edit that into more of a structured piece of music. Sometimes subtractively from that loop, but not always. You probably wouldn't guess if you viewed my TH-cam channel, as most of what I post there are just demo sounds made on the synths that I make. My Soundcloud channel has more of the types of music that I make. Anything from space music to modern electronic styles, to soundscapes and other weirdness. Whatever grabs me on the day really. Edit: Sorry if my opening sentence sounded a bit brash. I may have misread the intent of your question. :) I mainly just wanted to answer the question, but initially felt a little reactive. :)
Reminds me of Olafur Arnald’s work. I’m always impressed at the way he can put together so much and it not sound like a sonic mud bath. Excellent track by the way!
It is so good to know this is a valid technique. Not that it needs validation, but I bet sometimes people wonder "Is it just me doing this? Is this wrong?". I know I do. Videos like this one helps a lot, and also explains how to develop it further.
This track is incredibly beautiful. Olivia's vocals put it on a whole other level. It's crazy how the beginning loop is consistent throughout but doesn't sound repetitive because of the techniques you describe in this video. Thank you for posting this!
I absolutely love this in-depth exploration of a single track - it is really enjoyable to hear your thought processes and dissect your work. It is a very cool view into your creative mind. Thank you for sharing! This sort of arrangement lines up with my natural inclination to think of arrangement (whether loops or not) as gesture.
Fav example of “subtractive composition” or whatnot is some older Autechre. Having one main loop, with stuff slowly being addd for it for half the song, then slowly removing stuff, ending in a totally different place.
This is basically how a larger percentage of hip hop beat makers work. They throw all of the elements/layers in there for four or eight measures, then copy paste it all across the desired amount of time, then subtract elements to create variety.
Bro. You are the best music production and info class on the internet. I swore I would never buy a course or membership. But, once my dog health problem is resolved and I get caught up…I am joining. Appreciate your channel so much.
Back in 1998 I created an ambient electronica score for a short film and 2 tracks featured a vocal artist training for opera. I barely had a plan for her parts, but the studio session turned out to be one of the most memorable ones ever. I can only describe it as heavenly. This including Olivia, reminds me very much of what I recorded that day.
Hmmm So instead of listening to my cool loop for 3 hours & then scrapping the patch out of boredom, I could... commit to developing it into a piece? Madness.
I am still strugling with arranging basic ideas/loops/sequences and not to make them too boring. But I am learning. These tips can help thaaaaanks . Often I start minimal and then end up cluttering again with often nonsense...
I have been doing it like this for such a long time it got boring and I began to doubt my motivation. However this injects new creative vigor and excitement. I find relief here. Maybe I am doing all right afterall.
I write in very much the same way. I think it was learned that way, because I started my journey in FL Studio (pattern based composing), and when I made the jump to Cubase, I brought with me the same overall workflow. I'll draw in 2-4 bar patterns, arrange, layer, and move onto the next section. Then start subtracting elements and adding flair bits for the different transitions. Awesome stuff, man! Really enjoyed this track.
The song Misfit Love by QOTSA kind of works off this principle. It does resolve into a b section but there’s nearly 4 minutes of a section looping and building before the b section
Love that transition! Kind of floating from measures 58 to 61; introduction of a 4 against 3 pulse at mes. 62; piano comes in with triplets at 63... Amazing stuff! The fact that the piano does'nt come in at 62 propells the song poignantly. Moreover, the presence or absence of all the different sounds contribute to the story line. Tremendous job!
More to the point, this was a great lesson, and I appreciate it greatly. 'Bolero' has been a 40-year battle of appreciating the brilliant orchestration vs. ohgodmakeitstop.
Through the years I bought some tracks from you on Bandcamp, but never heard this one before. What a beautiful track, it's in my cart now (I buy once in few months).
I'm most often composing the most powerful part of the song first, and then slim it out before and after. It's a great way of getting the structure right and, as you say, know that everything will sounds good when being out together. And it's an absolutely beautiful piece you're showing here.
ur always answering the important questions and offering a good perspective. It's easy to get lost when looking for guidance in the music world but I've come to trust you the most
I love this. I use iterative composition all the time when I produce beats for rap artists to keep the instrumentals fun and interesting the whole time. I also love the term "subtractive arrangement" and I use that technique all the time too. I'm for sure sending this to some of friends just getting into production.
Sounds fantastic. I've used atonal sounds, sometimes found sounds like recordings from a train station or similar, to create a sense of both continuity and randomness throughout my tracks. Once there was a moment where I'd just recorded some sounds on London Waterloo train station and by chance somebody scraped their chair back at a particular moment that seemed so planned in the track... but was entirely random in the melody that was going on around it.... Subscribed to your channel and will catch up on all your previous vids.... glad to have discovered you :)
This is literally a Godsend for me. I’ve been inspired to build out a live performance rig playing guitar and using some plugins from Logic and pulling everything into Loopy Pro on my iPad. It’s so much more flexible than Ableton IMO. but I’ve been getting frustrated trying to balance the linear process of performing each part in a way that allows me to build on it and then subtract as I go along. It probably just takes spending more time on the front end to compose ideas ahead so I know where I want to go, but so often I just get lost in an idea and then struggle to build that idea out live. Definitely going to be checking out your course as this idea has been burning inside my soul for almost 3 years and am just now getting to a place where it feels achievable. Subscribed for sure!
I really enjoy your videos! I actually have tried to implement a lot of the techniques you have discussed previously. I am still a novice, but I can tell a difference to similar songs I made a year ago, to the ones I am working on now. My goal is to successfully make a song with a ABA structure. I usually end up either just A or A then B. Anyway, happy new year and I wish you the best!
Nice. I actually work the same way, I just didn't know there was a clever name for it (and I have a problem to let go of parts I like and coming to an end) 😉
Has anyone in the comments here talked about Talking Heads? Their album Remain in Light is literally just loops but somehow it sounds insane and engaging all the way through
There's lots of music a bit like this and its all crap. This is beautiful and involving. I love it. Thanks for showing us the process. However there is an X factor in collaboration and a talent and a care for detail not shown. Great work!😃👍😎🤘
I always hated "step sequences", but since I got my Pro 3, I've made a bunch that I like. Not that I wouldn't like to get get back to my much longer old Sonar/DAW sequences, but with my limited time, these 'dumb' step-sequences have been fun.
Pretty sure Giorgio Moroder recorded this way. Have a bunch of tracks going the whole time and bring them in an out during the song. This is how I learned how to record. I think its a great technique for pros and beginners.
Skimmed through your stuff on Bandcamp and also listened to the one you work on in this video - am noticing you don’t do much with percussion if anything. That’s gotta make things so much simpler.
I’ve done several things with more traditional percussive elements in the past, but have been consciously moving away from it lately. I love it, but it can also be used as a crutch to give a track energy and I’m really enjoying exploring other ways of doing that.
I have a monome norns, and it’s an amazing piece of gear that can create the most delicious loops imaginable. But I couldn’t help but finally come across the question, how do I take this further? I’ve been stuck for a very long time, and I can’t help but come to the conclusion that I just don’t know my way around music theory and composition. I just play purely by ear, would you suggest going to school for Music Theory & Composition? I’m 27 years old and a part of me feels too old to start but too young to give up?
Never too old to start. I would suggest finding artists whose music you really enjoy and try to find any insights into their process. Even attempting to recreate their style can be really insightful (not to plagiarize but as practice). For me, learning one instrument well enough to improvise ideas as starting points has been invaluable. Once you can create starting points, you can begin to experiment with how to develop them and arrange them.
Why are you using upper case for "song" and "loop" in the title? Thank God I was raised on Miles Davis and actually playing music. You got a lot of nerve comparing yourself to Ravel.
idon't see the point in this video. just jibeerish click baiting the youngies into thinking you were going to give them a cool vst plugin that can change their boring loop based track, but no, you want to chibby and chobbu and tallky talky with the cinematic swells. thats boring sonny. luv yer grandma
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Oh and I now have a TH-cam membership if you want to support the channel and watch me make music/sounds in monthly livestreams. Just click the JOIN button under the video to learn more :)
This is actually how I write a lot of my music. I design a sound first (as sound design is one of my favorite musical activities). Then start a loop. Then design another complementary sound, and layer. Similar process, but it completely revolves around the sounds that I make during the process. The song structure comes from adding and removing layers. Occasionally I'll layer all of the parts, and then subtractively arrange the parts/layers. Then go back in and add fills, sparkly bits, and other items to make it feel a bit more organic when the parts change. It's kind of a minimal process, but then I really like minimal music. :)
same here
So the result is "sound effects?"
@e7950 What would make you think that from what I wrote above? I design analog synthesizers, and write electronic music on synthesizers. I design every sound that goes into my music from scratch. (that's what synthesizers are for)
I do also enjoy getting lost in sound creation, as I find it therapeutic though.
I did have 14 years of rigid classical piano training by a symphony pianist. However, I prefer to create my own music to reciting classical music. For the past 20 years, I've been writing electronic music of many genres on electronic instruments including my own. And yes, I also make what could be considered sound effects as well, though I generally incorporate them into more traditional types of electronic music also.
I write a lot of my music by designing a sound as I said above, then get inspired by that sound, and its possibilities musically. Then procede to make more sounds, percussive sounds, bass sounds, leads, pads, etc. and fill them into a loop before then going onto to edit that into more of a structured piece of music. Sometimes subtractively from that loop, but not always.
You probably wouldn't guess if you viewed my TH-cam channel, as most of what I post there are just demo sounds made on the synths that I make. My Soundcloud channel has more of the types of music that I make. Anything from space music to modern electronic styles, to soundscapes and other weirdness. Whatever grabs me on the day really.
Edit: Sorry if my opening sentence sounded a bit brash. I may have misread the intent of your question. :) I mainly just wanted to answer the question, but initially felt a little reactive. :)
Reminds me of Olafur Arnald’s work. I’m always impressed at the way he can put together so much and it not sound like a sonic mud bath. Excellent track by the way!
Thanks Chris. Definitely has been an inspiration on my work.
I will straight up loop 8 bars for hours.
It is so good to know this is a valid technique. Not that it needs validation, but I bet sometimes people wonder "Is it just me doing this? Is this wrong?". I know I do.
Videos like this one helps a lot, and also explains how to develop it further.
This track is incredibly beautiful. Olivia's vocals put it on a whole other level. It's crazy how the beginning loop is consistent throughout but doesn't sound repetitive because of the techniques you describe in this video. Thank you for posting this!
Thx
I absolutely love this in-depth exploration of a single track - it is really enjoyable to hear your thought processes and dissect your work. It is a very cool view into your creative mind. Thank you for sharing!
This sort of arrangement lines up with my natural inclination to think of arrangement (whether loops or not) as gesture.
Thanks Brice!
Fav example of “subtractive composition” or whatnot is some older Autechre. Having one main loop, with stuff slowly being addd for it for half the song, then slowly removing stuff, ending in a totally different place.
This is basically how a larger percentage of hip hop beat makers work. They throw all of the elements/layers in there for four or eight measures, then copy paste it all across the desired amount of time, then subtract elements to create variety.
Bro. You are the best music production and info class on the internet. I swore I would never buy a course or membership. But, once my dog health problem is resolved and I get caught up…I am joining. Appreciate your channel so much.
Thanks so much!
Back in 1998 I created an ambient electronica score for a short film and 2 tracks featured a vocal artist training for opera. I barely had a plan for her parts, but the studio session turned out to be one of the most memorable ones ever. I can only describe it as heavenly. This including Olivia, reminds me very much of what I recorded that day.
Hmmm
So instead of listening to my cool loop for 3 hours & then scrapping the patch out of boredom, I could... commit to developing it into a piece? Madness.
Well….let’s not get too crazy lol
Love it. "We need 2 main things. 1. The Loop. 2. The other stuff" hilarious. Flat and excellent delivery. I love this guy's videos. Two thumbs up
Love the harmony!
I am still strugling with arranging basic ideas/loops/sequences and not to make them too boring. But I am learning. These tips can help thaaaaanks . Often I start minimal and then end up cluttering again with often nonsense...
Haha I do that too. Usually end up adding too much then stripping things away.
I will get it..slowly..learning^^@@JamesonNathanJones
Really glad I stumbled into this video. Really awesome stuff dude.
Your connections between modern and classical songwriting and production techniques are great. 🙌🏽
6:07 and forward: very nice!! I can't imagine a variety of scenes wherein this is the soundtrack--end of film.
I have been doing it like this for such a long time it got boring and I began to doubt my motivation. However this injects new creative vigor and excitement. I find relief here. Maybe I am doing all right afterall.
Great inspiration, thank you!
I write in very much the same way. I think it was learned that way, because I started my journey in FL Studio (pattern based composing), and when I made the jump to Cubase, I brought with me the same overall workflow. I'll draw in 2-4 bar patterns, arrange, layer, and move onto the next section. Then start subtracting elements and adding flair bits for the different transitions. Awesome stuff, man! Really enjoyed this track.
Great teaching and great composition. Beautiful!
The song Misfit Love by QOTSA kind of works off this principle. It does resolve into a b section but there’s nearly 4 minutes of a section looping and building before the b section
“I’ll show you all my parlor tricks…” love qotsa 🙌
Love that transition! Kind of floating from measures 58 to 61; introduction of a 4 against 3 pulse at mes. 62; piano comes in with triplets at 63... Amazing stuff!
The fact that the piano does'nt come in at 62 propells the song poignantly.
Moreover, the presence or absence of all the different sounds contribute to the story line. Tremendous job!
Thank you 🙏
I try to be supportive and you reward me by getting 'Bolero' stuck in my head. 🤪
More to the point, this was a great lesson, and I appreciate it greatly. 'Bolero' has been a 40-year battle of appreciating the brilliant orchestration vs. ohgodmakeitstop.
You’re welcome 😏
Elektron song mode makes it pretty easy to work this way - can have it go through the loop with different combinations of tracks active each time.
Through the years I bought some tracks from you on Bandcamp, but never heard this one before. What a beautiful track, it's in my cart now (I buy once in few months).
Your video ideas are fantastic and you do a lot to contribute to this creative space on the internet.
Really appreciate that! 🙏
I'm most often composing the most powerful part of the song first, and then slim it out before and after. It's a great way of getting the structure right and, as you say, know that everything will sounds good when being out together. And it's an absolutely beautiful piece you're showing here.
Thanks for taking the time to put this together. Really helpful way to think about composition!
loop based approach is widely used by frahm and arnalds, even zimmer
ur always answering the important questions and offering a good perspective. It's easy to get lost when looking for guidance in the music world but I've come to trust you the most
this video came out at the perfect time for me so big thanks
Informative video. Beautiful piece! This is so along the lines of what I am trying to do.
Your videos are always an interesting watch!
Thank you for making them!
Thanks for watching them :)
Man, this one is so good. Really nice example you used there, what a gorgeous composition. Thanks for sharing your thought process behind it all.
Thanks for your great videos!
Really really nice!
I am ultra early for this one!
Love the video Jameson, keep up the fantastic work 👍🏻
Thanks!
Loving these videos. Might not be as interesting for you compared to other topics but greatly appreciated.
Well done, thanks for your advices !
I love this. I use iterative composition all the time when I produce beats for rap artists to keep the instrumentals fun and interesting the whole time. I also love the term "subtractive arrangement" and I use that technique all the time too. I'm for sure sending this to some of friends just getting into production.
Thank you!
Sounds fantastic. I've used atonal sounds, sometimes found sounds like recordings from a train station or similar, to create a sense of both continuity and randomness throughout my tracks. Once there was a moment where I'd just recorded some sounds on London Waterloo train station and by chance somebody scraped their chair back at a particular moment that seemed so planned in the track... but was entirely random in the melody that was going on around it.... Subscribed to your channel and will catch up on all your previous vids.... glad to have discovered you :)
It has been awhile since I’ve listened to this beautiful piece. Thanks for sharing. Olivia has such a beautiful voice!! ❤️
She does!
This is literally a Godsend for me. I’ve been inspired to build out a live performance rig playing guitar and using some plugins from Logic and pulling everything into Loopy Pro on my iPad. It’s so much more flexible than Ableton IMO. but I’ve been getting frustrated trying to balance the linear process of performing each part in a way that allows me to build on it and then subtract as I go along. It probably just takes spending more time on the front end to compose ideas ahead so I know where I want to go, but so often I just get lost in an idea and then struggle to build that idea out live.
Definitely going to be checking out your course as this idea has been burning inside my soul for almost 3 years and am just now getting to a place where it feels achievable. Subscribed for sure!
Thanks Michael! Welcome!
I belive this technique is quite essential for neo-classical composition, when elements depend on electronically generated loops or arpeggios.
Thank you. Happy New Year.
And to you!
I really enjoy your videos! I actually have tried to implement a lot of the techniques you have discussed previously. I am still a novice, but I can tell a difference to similar songs I made a year ago, to the ones I am working on now.
My goal is to successfully make a song with a ABA structure. I usually end up either just A or A then B.
Anyway, happy new year and I wish you the best!
I love this video!
Nice. I actually work the same way, I just didn't know there was a clever name for it (and I have a problem to let go of parts I like and coming to an end) 😉
Nice video and the song sounds cool as well! Is the second melody on the loop is a counter melody? Or is it something else?
Has anyone in the comments here talked about Talking Heads? Their album Remain in Light is literally just loops but somehow it sounds insane and engaging all the way through
There's lots of music a bit like this and its all crap. This is beautiful and involving. I love it. Thanks for showing us the process. However there is an X factor in collaboration and a talent and a care for detail not shown. Great work!😃👍😎🤘
Ostinato. Learned that word today. Thanks for that.
Nice walkthrough. Tracks slightly out of time makes the difference
I am inspired. 🙏
5/4 TIME.... my brain goes so haywire trying to playing in 5/4.
10:10 Very nice.
I always hated "step sequences", but since I got my Pro 3, I've made a bunch that I like.
Not that I wouldn't like to get get back to my much longer old Sonar/DAW sequences,
but with my limited time, these 'dumb' step-sequences have been fun.
Also... I had this one piece/composition that I sat on for 10+ years before I finally found a second part that would work with it.
my dumb ass thought "Olivia vocal" was a plugin. lol beautiful piece
Haha best plugin ever
Cool videos. What is your favorite piano plug-in?
My brain keeps wanting to drift off into space whenever he has the song playing. I think I missed some of the concepts.
Jameson Nathan Jones, please don't stop making videos) also what are you using for choirs?
Thanks! In this case, I used a real person and multitracked her haha
I didn't know that Bob from I Like To Make Stuff makes music.
Pretty sure Giorgio Moroder recorded this way. Have a bunch of tracks going the whole time and bring them in an out during the song. This is how I learned how to record. I think its a great technique for pros and beginners.
Looper is an underrated film
I agree
Skimmed through your stuff on Bandcamp and also listened to the one you work on in this video - am noticing you don’t do much with percussion if anything. That’s gotta make things so much simpler.
I’ve done several things with more traditional percussive elements in the past, but have been consciously moving away from it lately. I love it, but it can also be used as a crutch to give a track energy and I’m really enjoying exploring other ways of doing that.
Copy that, sent you a question on Bandcamp…
I prefer 4 bar and 8 bar loops. With turnarounds.
Klaus Schulze was doing this sort of thing back in the 70's!
I have a monome norns, and it’s an amazing piece of gear that can create the most delicious loops imaginable. But I couldn’t help but finally come across the question, how do I take this further? I’ve been stuck for a very long time, and I can’t help but come to the conclusion that I just don’t know my way around music theory and composition. I just play purely by ear, would you suggest going to school for Music Theory & Composition? I’m 27 years old and a part of me feels too old to start but too young to give up?
I'm 47 and just starting out with composition too. Just do it if it feels right and helps you grow. The right time is now.
Never too old to start. I would suggest finding artists whose music you really enjoy and try to find any insights into their process. Even attempting to recreate their style can be really insightful (not to plagiarize but as practice).
For me, learning one instrument well enough to improvise ideas as starting points has been invaluable. Once you can create starting points, you can begin to experiment with how to develop them and arrange them.
Sounds like its from a Ghibli film
That song does indeed have a sense of purpose and direction. I wish I had purpose and direction. haha jk 69noscope
Its not add bigger, then bigger and then even bigger drums?
Then biggest
@@JamesonNathanJones 🤣🤣 ❤️✌️
The track at the end is very beautiful. Thank you, you're good ;)
Yes loops are boring and not really phrase correct but they are good building blocks.
Hmm the Join button doesn’t exist for me
Sometimes it doesn’t show up on mobile. It should be on my channel page if it doesn’t show up under the video for some reason.
Not to belittle the idea or the execution but your loop is an ostinato, yes, or at least acts like one.
an ostinato is a pattern, usually accompanying melodic materal, that shifts with the harmonic structure. What do you think?😊
Need more drms 😊
Why are you using upper case for "song" and "loop" in the title? Thank God I was raised on Miles Davis and actually playing music. You got a lot of nerve comparing yourself to Ravel.
This particular loop is boring AF, and as a result - the whole video is boring.
idon't see the point in this video. just jibeerish click baiting the youngies into thinking you were going to give them a cool vst plugin that can change their boring loop based track, but no, you want to chibby and chobbu and tallky talky with the cinematic swells. thats boring sonny. luv yer grandma