It’s cool talking about this hard-core stuff. I guess in 10 years if the elevators work and the trains run on time, I don’t blow up on the landing pad on a very soft landing. It will be cool, but that’s another billion dollars away. Speculation is a good time and fun for a community with no game to play.
I agree on many points in this discussion regarding insurance, but what I would say Is not Everton has the luxury of getting paid to play the game. I have very limited time to play. I agree that upgraded weapons and components should not be covered the ships hull should be insured at the base level. So you have something to work for. But I think getting my hornet back with all its insured parts(non-upgraded) that’s fine. In reality we will all be in orgs that churn all these ships and components out. 6m, 120m and LTI have to have a purpose, but I’d rather see them be just that, clock starts ticking at 1.0
I think you guys are being almost paranoid. The ONLY reason the warranty exists is the pledge store. They added it to gameplay rewards to help level P2W gap. They are NOT gonna give us T5 replacements for free. They don't HAVE to, because they never sold any for real cash.
Thought experiment on the topic of insurance and the loss of components. The assumption is that when I get my components back, I will no longer buy them from Mike in the shop, but my insurance company will give them to me. What if there was a mechanic that the insurance company would use the money it receives from players as a premium and would have to buy the component in a shop? Logically, where it is the cheapest? Then at least Mike would possibly receive a message that component xy has been purchased by the insurance company?
Sounds cool, but what if Mike doesn't have the replacement stock? Dos the player that paid for insurance have to wait for Mike to make the item now, or does Mike just get the money without putting the effort in to make a replacement? Edit: I guess it's not a problem if replaced components/weapons are just stock ones, but if it's a crafted item of a higher grade, we run into issues.
@@beavschannel5217 not something we couldnt make work, what if he got a work order - so he had to make the component and deliver it to the person who insured it, who also doesnt get it until mike makes it. and gets a cash alternateive if mike doesnt / cant etc etc - just theory but it could be done in a way which engages the economy.
CIG needs people to pay for ships, forever. Yes, even after 1.0. Somebody who puts in $750 is going to be way ahead of somebody putting in $50. Nothing will change it.
Death doesn't matter in Tarkov after the first 3 days of a wipe. I kind of laugh when Mike says "let's be like Tarkov". Tarkov hasn't mastered this either. Tarkov doesn't really have an end game. At best death is just wasting you're time and this is what the players hate and BSG continually tries to fix with saved loadouts, QoL tools, stash management during serving searching etc.
The only one i played that it mattered was Everquest way back when you had to go and recover your corpse or you would lose everything on it. They eventually added graveyards the body would move to but before that I remember some stressful evenings corpse running for 20 or 30 people to save their gear, and that felt tense knowing it could just be gone. Without the risk of loss it is meaningless.
Your 25-year experience is either very limited, or you've actively avoided MMOs with heavy death penalties. WoW hardcore and Wizardry Online literally have/had permadeath. Everquest had exp debt and corpse runs; you could delevel in FF11 with exp debt. Eve Online was punishing as hell back in the day of SP clones and no plex. Dying for some meant losing weeks of real-time skill training.
Exactly, and I don't want to this game to be anything like Tarkov or Eve which have increased stakes for dying to make up for the lack of features and gameplay loops elsewhere. There is no rule that the thrill of playing an MMO should come from the fear of dying and losing progress. For me it comes from exploration and interaction with other players through events, trading or helping each other solve a pve problem.
We can't talk about insurance before we even know what the game looks like. Right now if you are playing salvage/mining tier 0, sure, then put in "death of space man", "lose everything insurance", or whatever you want. On the other hand if you are a racer and the idea is you will respawn at the hospital, then reclaim the ship, then fly all around the verse to re-equip various components, then go back to racing area this idea is obviously laughable. In general even if insurance has a cost to it CIG probably still needs to look at ways to reduce real world time wasting in the game.
50:25 No idea why this is so hard and even Jared cleared it up. If you purchase a ship on the website, when the ship is destroyed, you get a new one with ORGINAL COMPONENTS after a TIMER. If said player purchased Level 2 insurance, the player gets CREDITS for the VALUE difference between stock and the upgrades. The same applies to Level 3, a player gets CREDITS for the VALUE difference. So, for Cutlet's scenario, He would get his ship back with ORGINAL COMPONENTS and CREDITS for the lost UPGRADED Components. That means he would have to fly back to Mike to BUY THE WEAPONS AGAIN. The only magical duping via Insurance is getting a new ship with original components.
@@timkreis8543the cost of the component minus wear and tear. They were VERY clear. This bunch on the podcast is just trying to overcomplicate the already complicated insurance warranty system
my only issue with losing things on death, is griefers. we all know people that have an alt account, or multiple... who cares if they pad ram you on an alt? they dont, CIG dont, so it's just a shitty feeling losing something because a person is a douchebag. like, log in with only a few hours to play, get griefed and then lose the best BP i have because of NOTHING i did... yeah just shitty all around.
@ their discussion is based off the death of a spaceman part, where they want people to lose something. That was my relation to them, I am glad we don’t lose them, but their idea had loopholes
Didnt they say tier 2 & 3 was just getting the UEC value of those upgraded parts.😮 Warranty +T1 means you get the base ship back in an operational state
Try to remember, CIG is NOT trying to re-create Eve Online, or WOW. Star Citizen needs to take it's own path. Player crafted items should ONLY be replaced, if the player that created the item, gets the insurance money. Items of any quality level, purchased in-game, from a kiosk, or NPC dealership should be insured & replaced. Ships purchased in the pledge store MUST be replaced at the appropriate level of insurance. Period. Nothing prevents CIG from excluding player-crafted items, from the insurance program; protecting their uniqueness! Exclusive items, gained thru grinding, or completing certain missions, are just lost. Re-grind for another one.
That can't work in all cases. They HAVE to give us things we can't lose. Like rewards for doing the Main Story Quest, those should ALL be account bound. If there isn't a way for people to keep things forever, then they simply will never take their good things out, there'll never be anything good for pvp players to loot, cause we'll just roll with stock components and a sperm suit, nothing special to loot.
there is nothing unique about a crafted item. It's just the same old stats grind so you'll just insure it. That's why they have tier 3 for components and equipment. All of this tier crap is manufactured grind anyway to drive up investor demanded KPIs so you can bet they will put enough grind walls on everything to ensure the game is an insufferable mess. insurance simply makes it a tad more bearable
I've never played Eve or WOW and I totally agree with them. As someone who has been waiting years for crafting and a player economy, this massively steps on crafting and player to player trading. I don't get how anyone can suggest it's better for the game, the economy and crafting in general if I only have to craft the highest level components once and then I can dupe and hand them out to all my friends, completely bypassing all the gameplay that comes with it. Crafting is essential for the longevity of the game due to CIG's business model. Otherwise UEC is the only meaningful reward and you can achieve anything in the game without doing anything other than whatever loop generates the most cash. Also, it's not up to me or you to say what CIG is trying to do or not do. Nothing they have said so far has suggested that you will or will not get back ships or components above base level quality.
SC (and all business) runs around the money that comes in (ship sales) and the money that will continue to come in (from Ship sales). CiG will continue to get money and give advantage to those who pay 💰 vs those who do not pay. Because giving advantages to those who pay will bring in more money 💰 I bet CiG will sell ANYTHING that makes money. e.g. Warranties. Remember, they sold Land Claims...
Yes just wait they will be selling lifetime Tier 2 warranties on the pledge store. And it will probably double the price of the ship you are buying. 😆 "LTI&W2"
I think the issue of insurance on the economy could be not an issue, we don’t know how those warranty replacements are sourced, if a quanta npc or even better a dynamic player mission goes to get that upgraded component from Mike’s shop and delivers it to the insurance location then the player economy is preserved and players wait time for insurance will depend on the availability of their components on the market.
What i would like to see in terms of ships bought from the pledge store is. If you buy a ship from the pledge store with 3 month insurance. When your ship gets destroyed you get a Tier 0 ship back while ur ship is insured. Same for LTI or 10 year insurance , LTI always getting back a Tier 0 ship , 12 month insurance , for 12 months you get back a Tier 0 ship. And ofcourse being able to extend that insurance for any pledged / crafted / ingame bought ship. But the exact bonus , give us a Tier 0 blueprint for the ship we bought from the pledge store. With the blueprints of any tier , just being hard to get ingame. And skipping that by buying it from the pledge store. However , to get a higher Tier blueprint , you would still need to find a higher Tier ingame , or find a 2nd Tier 0 blueprint , to be able to upgrade that blueprint. Basicly , the blueprint you get thru the pledge store , has unlimited use. But can never be upgraded. And if you want a Tier 5 of that ship , you need to find another Blueprint , and spend time and effort to research that blueprint , and getting a higher tier , and X amount of useage out of that Blueprint.
There are super simple fixes to SpaceCutlet's problems with insurance. 1. Rare components are not covered by insurance (event or raid rewards, most alien stuff...) 2. Components with warranty come back 1 or 2 tier lower than they were 3. Gathering missions are generated to get components of a certain quality to a station based on components often replaced with warranty there (to simulate the warranty's sink on economy)
I have spent over $15,000 USD backing this project. Everything I own has LTI. I want stock ship stock components return. If we lose a ship I do not want everything that's upgraded back. This will not only ruin the game for me for others too. Reason why I bought everything with LTI was I did not want to have to track what was insured and what was not insurance. I knew right from the get-go I was going to have a large fleet of ships. I probably own by now over 50 ships of vehicles. All these years I was thinking that maybe LTI would be like a discount on higher tear insurance. Like 10% off or 20% off? Over any in games UEC bought ship. Edit: I did not want to have to grind for any ships or vehicles in game. This gameplay is not appealing or fun for me. So I chose to buy everything with real life money. Salty Mike however thanks. I screwed myself out of gameplay. Gameplay I'm not interested in mind you. I am interested in resource grinding crafting ship components, armors guns and etc. so the resource gathering is a must must have and being able to use such resources to better my fleet and my person.
@amaterasu5001 you might have misunderstood me I am not interested. In gameplay that would be associated with grinding for UEC so one could pay for ships. I want to already have the ships. I was interested in game play. That was grinding for resources to better the fleet that I already own. If I was interested in mining, I want to already have the ship to go mining with. I didn't want to have to grind money and reputation or even for blueprints to build a mining ship. I could just go flat out mining.
@@Metro2MetroI find it strange people don’t get this. I bought an expensive ship so that I can repair stuff and salvage. Those are the loops I’m into. So really all that has happened is I have skipped to the bit I wanna do. And I intend to do it forever…. Assuming insurance doesn’t screw it over.
@Embarkation1 you are totally correct sir. I skipped the bits. I don't want to do. Then start on day one on the bits I'm really interested in. Everybody has their own vision, on what they're going to do in the game. In addition to what they think they're going to enjoy. When we publicly announced. The gameplay they're looking forward to. We'd rather skip that step. That's where the misunderstanding comes from.
I absolutely love the idea of store bought ships providing a blueprint for the ship over offering a "warranty" - leave those to be earnable in game. Blueprints offer that perfect blend of "you have it forever" with an appropriate level of punishment required in needing the right infrastructure/resources to reproduce your ship.
I was thinking in this direction for subscriber flair and some other items we have in our hangar. Especially since they talked about ownerships not only for pledged ships, but also important items. And the fact they mentioned we will be able to craft subscriber flair items. But you are kind of trading one evil for another, are you acquiring a Javelin, Sabre Raven or Star Kitten armor for yourself at that point or for the blueprint so you can craft those for other players? The source of the problem is selling something that isn't purely cosmetic in the first place.
Min 44 i am all in for the insurance to give me my tier5 ship back when i insured a tier5 ship. To day when i have a fully customized Porsche, let the surveyer see it and pay a adequate insurance i get the money for a rebuild WITH THE CUSTOMIZATION. And tbo i have a real life and a job and no time ore motivation to loose my 6 month progress over a fucking zerg group.
I think guys you seeing the Economy of this game in 2D, Lets scale it in 3D.. Everything as scale in SC. How the warranty would be a working way for the crafting gameplay. 1- the inssurance price go up or down in function of the average price market for an item in that sector. So if you take a tier 3 warranty with full recovery at tthe moment you take that warranty it will calculate all the item you have in your ships and give you a price based on the market price of those items. so price of issurance are variables and not fixed. 2. Every time an item is claimed it goes into a calculation of inventory and those calculation of inventory will create missions for crafters, example 30 000 pico have been requested, the Star sim system create missions for a few 200 pico requested.. The crafter take the mission and craft 200 picos.. that also create delivery mission cuz you need to deliver 200 pico or more. 3.As aplayer you can also either take contract by star sim or create your own store, selling rarest items in that sector 4. timers on ships request must also be variable... if almost no one is making idris at the moment, the time for an idris request will be very long.. if there is multiple peaples creating them the timer is less... I think that star sim need to create mission based on economy and sector of activity.. that was the goal from the get go... and doing that you can still add NPC economy into it and keep the crafting elements to fufill the universe need of comodity...i item out for a client an item need to be in for the next client.... dynamic economy and also dynamic missions.
i think the main issue is joe crafted a tier 5 ship part and it has been duped 100 times in 2 months and now multiple players have joe's ship parts without ever buying from him or his duped(stolen) parts are being sold on the market while the person who keeps losing there parts gets an unlimited supply of Joe's ship parts.
@@yungsofa8084 you cannot dupped ship. if you steal a ship ok you can make it your own or you can rip it appart and sell it into peice just like a stolen car business in real life but when joe go claim his ship.. a new mission is created on star sim that a ship need to be created for joe.. either by a player crafter or a npc in the simulation*not phisically create it doing all the complex animation like a player but running through a simulation... so with taht you have still an economy where player can inffluence it but you cannot completely unbalance it because you have also NPC simulated that can take those mission too and regulate the economy.
@@FulguroGeek i think you are confused i said "ship parts" not "ship". as far as joe is concerned he has less people buying items because there is multiple copies from original crafted pieces that are in the game not being purchased through joe or other sellers like joe. By the way i do see what you mean about the simulated aspect that we dont see that drives market values and etc but i cant think of one game that has a player driven economy where you can get back the things that would move the most in the market without player to player transactions. After raw mats ships and ship parts would have super high traffic for sales and people that play in markets would like to see there work being moved how it should.
@@yungsofa8084 you get the thing back but that create new mission for joe or other seller. example :one tier 5 ship with tier 5 components...that ship get claimed for whatever reason...if the ship has been stolen the pirate have it but thats the same ship...you cannot really duplicate it magically, example you give it to someone and you make it seems like it has been stolen so you claim it now there is 2 ships that true, but the ship you claimed created a mission for a crafter to create a ship tier 5...so joe can create another ship tier 5 as a crafter..... if there is 200 ship claimed there is 200 mission or bigger missions like a mission that require the creation of 10 tier 5 ships so as a crafter .. basically my point is everytime an item get claimed it need to be manufactured by a player or an npc, if you claim 1000 ships the game need to manufacture 1000 ships. in real life your inssurance and nothing get dupped its impossible an object you by 2 time need to be manufactured 2 times
@@FulguroGeek im not gonna lie you lost me for a min but now i understand what you mean and this approach isnt half bad. i still rather have no insurance for ship components but this is a solution i wouldnt complain about. i think you have looked at this thing differently then most and i gotta give you a +1 for that. This mixed with warranty limited in lawless systems is honestly the perfect balance to everything.
I think it would be interesting to have a game loop where if you have a higher tier of insurance and your ship is destroyed, a mission is created for someone to go and create an insurance claim. So they go and collect as many components from the ship and return them to a location. For anything that was not returned is filed as lost and the credit value is returned instead.
The reason everyone is complaining about 4.0 being gutted is because it's ALWAYS the same old thing with CIG, over hype under deliver, how many fucking years have we been waiting for it? And despite them cutting half of it, it will STILL be a broken fucking mess, they can't even deliver a fucking ship sale patch without breaking everything AND IT'S STILL BROKEN! Despite hot fix after hot fix, so if it's going to be broken just leave it all in and let it all be broken together, we might even have a miracle and have something work, that they removed be the only thing worth doing but I guess we'll never know now. And they get butthurt when people call them incompetent is it any reason why?
What I don’t agree with is what was said about ship claim times will take as long as it takes to build one yourself. Only crafted ships should take that long. A store bough ship should take as long as it currently takes. About the time to have one flown to your location from the location of the store it was purchased from.
My idea to fix a possible infinite item insurance glitch hurting crafting loops would be to have supply contracts for the insurance companies. This still leaves problems, but there are no prefect solutions. Think of this as step one of an SC Insurance Swiss Cheese Model. This assumes ships with warranty and tier 2 or tier 3 insurance will replace items rather than paying replacement value, blueprints, or something else. Don't worry about replacement timelines not matching, it's game magic. 1. The claimant makes an insurance claim where, in the proper time, they get their item. 2. Simultaneously, the insurance company places a "replacement crafting job" for X. 3. If there is an original player crafter for an item they get first right of refusal. 4. Next, random crafters can accept the crafting job. 5. Finally, if no player will craft the item, an NPC will take the job.
In the past, they talked about about an integrated economy where insurance claim times would be variable based on availability of replacements. So far, they've been fudging that with static times. But one way this could be fixed id if your ability to get your ship back with a tier 3 component depends on people (and perhaps some percentage coming from NPCs) creating those components, which would then depend on a supply of raw materials being fed into the economy to create those components.That could further depend on crafters being willing to sell their output to insurance companies or vendors willing to buy those goods at a fixed price. Done correctly, this could lead to the raw material and crafter supply chain having an impact on (1) how much component insurance costs because it would depend on how much miners charge high-end raw materials and crafters charge for high-end components and (2) how long it takes to get your replacement ship such that component insurance could be both very expensive and delay getting the ship replace substantially. And taking a cue from real life, a player who frequently loses their ships should have to pay significantly higher component replacement insurance than a player who rarely loses a ship.So while CIG changes their mind about a lot of things, I think it's premature to assume (1) that crafters won't benefit from component insurance (they may, if there are institutional buyers for their good and they have some say in how much they sell advanced goods), (2) that component insurance won't further delay replacement and that replacement times will remain as low as they currently are, (3) that component insurance won't be significantly expensive and won't get more expensive if you make a lot of claims.
100% insurance and warranty, you get your pledged ship back as a one time soulbound blueprint, and a % in currency to help you get on your way to being able to rebuild, and depending on how you recraft it, you add your upgrades then. A ship bought in game same deal without the blueprint. You dont lose your ship from the pledge store, you still own it, but its currently destroyed until you fix it, and if thats from ground up, so be it. Even if its an account locked currency that you can only spend at a special place for rebuilding pledge ships. But then, its almost the same thing, and itll come down to rebuild time, which they mentioned.
When you're in Lawless = You get stock (T0) ship, components and decorations back (Warranty). When you're in Lawful = You get stock (T0) ship and components decorations back (Warranty) PLUS varying UEC Payment (Insurance). T0 needs to be usable for basic PvE/Flight only. Job Done.
aaa they already do that in the calls at the end talking about the story of the day? what would be the point to add someone extra? I would like to see more content creators in the main part like today.
Instead of duplicating items, CIG should pull needed components from player inventories first, creating missions to deliver them if they’re available. This boosts the economy by connecting players, encouraging trade, and making every delivery meaningful.
A game without bugs as a prerequisite to insurance. Also, CIG can nerf anything. With respect to the custom "component" it makes no difference. As we've all experienced CIG can and will make a MKII of something and nerf the current meta, for its newest meta. So Mike's "gun" it can be nerfed just like our powerplants and QD's in the current patch, and everybody gets the same utility out of their device. Moreover what if the component you buy is 20% better, and you get attacked by 5 experienced players, will that 20% offset 5X difference? I don't think so.
Imagine LTI not being what it is. LIFE TIME INSURANCE. Woooh I can smell the lawsuits. "I think you shouldn't get it back" yeah... Keep on thinking that.
@saltemike what isn't your thoughts on the reclaimer cargo. Offloading the cargo is a super chore, you can only safely put 2 to 3 of the 16scu containers on the elevator. There is no cargo grid on it. Does the reclaimer just need a total rework or is there a way to fix it?
Life Time Insurance was always going to be a contentious issue. If SC was to ever go true MMO, LTI would have to be nerfed somehow. The current plan should be sufficient enough that when a player loses their ship, they can get their stuff back. LTI just means you don't have to pay a fee long term. The only issue I have with LTI currently is that while the loophole of spawning a ship, giving it to a friend who 'pirates' it, and claiming a new one is closed, you can still spawn infinite weapons/modules by insuring a ship with the most slots and constantly reclaiming it.
The more I listened, the more an idea hit me that probably solves all aspects of concerns here. Create a rotation that can be adjusted monthly, of a # of ships that would be full return (cargo excluded. purchased player-crafted items also excluded) per player. Then everything else the player has and insured, is only base. For base players, they get 1 ship. For backers of anything more than a base pledge but less than $1000, they get 2. For concierge they get 3. Simple. This way, people who paid into the game, get a little reward / benefit of convenience. But it doesn't disrupt economy long term because if you want to do anything besides 1 or 2 game play loops, you won't be able to without risk and engagement with the other players. This appeases those who can only play infrequently: they spend the time to grind once, from that point forward they are set as long as it's only the limited game loops they want to play. They also have the flexibility to rotate out every month to try other game play loops. This appeases those who want crafting and economy to mean something: the limitation makes it so players will have to engage with the other players to expand past their 1 game loop. This will also be very beginner friendly, making initial progress not feel so bad like you're losing everything. But by limiting the amount of ships, you won't have everything that benefits from this in game, which as players grow and expand, they will take on those risks.
Yes you want to kill Star Citizen instantly? Tell people their IRL bought ships are gone after being destroyed. 😆 Space cutlet is 100% right. That is 'non-negotiable'.
@TimOnTheNet if ship loss was told to supporters on DAY 1... Then ok. But it wasn't. So they are stuck with them being replaced. (& pretty sure they'd not have made 700+ million had it been so)
I don't think anyone is seriously arguing for that option anymore. They've been selling ships far too long and promising insurance to keep them. The question is how do we implement loss in a way that allows the game to continue on long term. If no one ever loses anything, then eventually we'll all have everything we want and the game will slowly die.
@Spike.SpiegeI I don't know if it's true anymore but... They said when the game launches you can only buy newly released ships in game. Now whether they changed their minds, or were lying in the first place... 🤷
@@Dracounguis I would love to see that system implemented but I doubt it. I think they'll always sell ships in the store because they make so much money from it. Personally I'd like them to start selling only cosmetics in the store which don't give anyone an advantage. Between being able to place custom logos on ships and with base building coming in, the ability to sell cosmetics becomes nearly endless.
Here's an idea: all warranties have a period of time that they can be fulfilled by players. That way the money for the warranty ships DOES go to other players.
48:55 Maybe insurance claims for player crafted items can only be filled by players. If spacecutlet loses his gun maybe the claim is filled by a system that is replenished by players. Mike could sell to traders that take the guns and in turn sell them to an insurance warehouse that stockpiles the items. If there's no item available could be a cash pay out that he could take back to Mike to get another custom build.
Omg, it's so easy to solve. Give the insured player the tier 3 repeater, and the insurance buys the 6 guns from Mike. Ore give the player the money what the tier3 cost and they can buy it from mike again.
While I think this was an interesting discussion overall, there are some over all points worth remembering: 1) CIG has been super vague about how insurance is supposed to work. Now they've pulled back the curtain, it's obviously worth discussing. 2) Most players aren't content creators and this discussion felt one sided as a content creator to another content creator. It's your podcast but that's how I felt. 3) I understand you're all passionate about this game but you need to stop interrupting especially Mike. Also there were long discussions where Croncy didn't say anything. 4) It's a Croncy and Mike show but it's still very much a Mike show.
I think if the insurance system has the ability to "buy" items that players have available for sale (they get paid if the price falls within a range, insurance charges the player who claims their deductible, the item disappears, its a potential solution
they mentioned that you can't just have unlimited level 2 insurance hinting that you can transfer it but there is a transfer time. also only citizens or people with rep with the council can get higher level insurance.
Maybe a good middle ground would be you get the factory tuned version of the component. Lets be real guys Mike isnt gonna be selling the fullly custom Salty Sprayer TM with custom model. Its gonna be the Onnisky V tuned to Mike spec. It makes sense that a big company wont be able to replicate that tuning or would even care to. So you still have to go to mike to stay at the highest level of competition.
I think this only works, if the insurance company is raising orders for the ships and weapons. That way you get job orders to supply the insurance company - instead of the player.
Im glad that we've been able to stream evo. its a waiting game with bugs. it's so easy for people to complain that there are bugs in live. and there are, but... not evo bugs.
Pretty sure that insurance like real life is going to give you cash to replace, warranty is going to give you base hull and loadout. The over thinking of this is a bit fearmongering.
I wanted to chime in on the blueprints. I wasn't able to when you guys were live, but I was thinking. What if the blueprints when you claim them from the terminal but you're crafting from can be hacked and stolen
If crafting is deterministic, they could probably determine a market based cost/claim fee to refabricate custom items for the sake of in game claim fees. I feel like if in game fees are really high in those cases, it might be enough pressure to value a ship's life and offset some of the pledge store's power, if even a little.
To add a new basic Tier 1 ship manufacturing loop going, they could spit out missions to build them. So, for every ship that is "duped" by an insurance warrenty claim giving you a new ship, the game should automatically create a mission contract for players to make a T1 version of the ship/component that pays out the exact amount that the insurance payout would have been if you didn't have a warranty.
insurance claims could create missions to create and provide the replacement parts and even the ship itself. the claim time wouldn't be tied to it being fulfilled. but if someone claims a tier two ship with tier three weapons it creates a mission for those to be crafted and then delivered somewhere.
What’s going to be the worst part is that they cut all of this and they still won’t get 4.0 out in a playable state. They will release it just to say they did but it will be completely unplayable for most.
I foresee tons of Solo players who planned on only spending $50. BUT over 12+ years and 20 upgrades @ $50 found themselves in the Whale group. Only to have CIG make sure you need a team of 4+ players to play most ships and there is no way the solo can use their really cool large LTI ship. So They melt their large LTI ship to get the largest solo playable ship with no insurance, then subscribe to insurance until their whale $1000 is gone. While they are upset because the whole point of buying LTI was to not have to pay a $15 subscription like WOW. I somehow am not worried about how CIG will get our money. They will! And I just hope that the game doesn't go bankrupt or players get so upset with them, that they all quit like. Starwars Galaxies.
I'm not disappointed about stuff being removed from 4.0. If anything I think it will actually help if they do bare bones 4.0 with meshing and then release features and bug fix as they go. It will be easier for them to identify issues as they gradually implement big game changing features instead of them putting everything in at once. Meshing is literally the only thing that matters in this patch and I would much prefer them to focus on just that while refining game systems in the background so they are also in a better state. If meshing doesn't work, then there's literally no point to anything they showed in the presentations
This where the marketing decisions CIG made star hurting the game. They simply can't not give the items bought with real money when the item is lost. In game credits or tokens are not an option. There is an actual possibility of a lawsuit coming if they do that. Even having to buy ships without LTI in game feels dodgy and I expect this to change. I wouldn't be surprised if they change it later to T1 insurance for ships without LTI and full warranty for the ones that do have LTI.
Blueprints shouldn't get corrupted, that's dumb. It's just data after all. The way crafting should be limited is not by degrading or losing blueprints but rather by the scarcity of materials. Just like when you craft a legendary weapon in Guild Wars 2, there should be some special resources you need that are seperate from mineables and are given out in extremely limited quantities, this prevents people from mass producing high tier items.
The problem of insurance duping comes only with PVP (or null sec zones), so you must loose the items when pirated by a nother player. but then you wouldnt want to go with your highest tier components in the first place.
Could space cutlets point be resolved by maybe saying crafted parts cannot be insured? Only things that can be bought? Or if you insure a fully hand crafted ship. Every component is hand crafted, every weapon etc. they still have what's considered a base component. Insurance only returns that base component. So it may be upgraded compared to their stock components (maybe all A class components) but they are all the standard ones that can be bought in game. Better than if you didn't pay for the better insurance but it'll never be the same as that hand crafted ship you had. You'll need to work for that back (be it crafting or buying back from someone like Mike or honestly myself).
To me this would be the best way to do insurance. Going to use small numbers but it would be based off server size and other things. Let's say an npc factory can have max 100 Connie Taurus on hand. That factory can only build 2 Taurus per day and only has enough supplies to build 10 and auto resupply enough for 2 per week. As people buy or do an insurance claim on the Taurus it's ship supply goes down and they start building max 2 per day. As it's supply gets lower and lower the cost to buy one goes up, maybe 2% to 5% for every 10 ships under 100. Cost only affects player buying the ship not insurance. Once the factory is down to 50% of its resources, missions go out for players to bring resources. Once the ship supply goes to 50% missions go out for players to build ships for the factory. If the factory runs out of ships, players can't buy that ship and insurance claims get put into a que. For insurance claims the factory could have tier 1 thru 5 in stock, but not purchasable. But same thing happens when they get low they ask players to build say tier 5 Taurus's. This concept works for everything from components to weapons and so on. This way crafters have a reason to make items still even if players are not buying it from them, the factory/insurance is buying it. The factory increasing the price is for when it has to buy from player crafters. Item normal price is 2 million, by the time the player is doing quest the price is 2.2 million. Player makes 2 mil and factory makes 200k
I've played MMOs since the mid 90s, starting with Ultima Online. Among those, I include those with really strong penalties to death like FFXI for years (there you could spend one year grinding to try to level up, to instead lose some). And the most hardcore they were, the less people played them and for shorter periods. Even in Ultima Online where you lost everything on you when you were killed, sending most players to play in PvE shards. And in none of those you could lose gear paid with real money. In Star Citizen where people pay hundreds (or even thousands) for their ships, it's simply not feasible to have a hardcore mode that includes PvP for everyone where paid ships could be lost and would require more than a progressive reasonable countdown or a small fee in in-game credits. The idea of having blueprints that would require weeks and intense grinding to get the materials, is simply not feasible IMHO. One thing is to play the game, the other is to turn your life into the game. I could see the existence of hardcore shards where that could happen, but not in mainstream shards. It would kill the game for most backers. On the other hand, restrictions like just receiving the base components while getting paid for the upgraded ones, that I believe it could work if explained properly and always allowing a special protection for certain items (for example cosmetic ones). That way most "casuals" would simply use vanilla ships (like when nowadays many people use the white suit you get for free when killed), while the sweaty hardcore without lives would be able to have tuned ones.
I feel like they still dont understand fully what the LTI is..... they way i heard it was that LTI is still the duration of time u have the level 1 insurance..... but if you bought it on like you have the warranty for the duration of the purchased insurance on the web site
All pledge ships have lifetime warranty and appropriate level of insurance was what they said. That means if you bought a ship with 6 months insurance, you will still have a lifetime warranty. Insurance covers the cost, it pays you to get back upgraded components minus the cost of wear and tear.
@1:58:31 The ammount of time to craft or research is irrelevant when players participants increase. Case and point Eve's first titan was built so fast the game asset wasn't even finished yet.
I think croncy is misunderstanding the specialization part. From how they described it, you are not specializing a specific blueprint for better speed or power. You are specializing in this one specific blueprint (for example, a hornet) which makes you a hornet crafter and not a gladius crafter. You have and want to specialize because the research to level up the blueprints is expensive and time-consuming which makes it unrealistic for almost all players to have high level blueprints of all the stuff in the game from fps weapons over components to ships.
Where is the player progression if all your stuff gets reset by insurance cash-out or character death. There's no player attachment. I think this warrants more discussion.
Blueprints and insurance could be money sinks. Insurance you will want to refresh so you buy it with store credit or UEC in-game. Blueprints could be prohibitively expensive, you are obtaining the knowledge of crafting something, but could also come with the purchase of a pledge or in-game ship (like a service manual) that you have do research on to be able to craft the best possible tier of that blueprint.
No, server meshing will not make the verse feel alive... yes, you will see more people going around and it will feel more occupied... it will only ever feel alive when MMO staples come to Star Citizen! What does EVERY city have in any MMO that drives players of all levels to flock there? The auction house! What drives players to visit certain areas from time to time? Professions and quests!
yes but even if it is a money sink its still taking away from player driven economy. Ship parts and ships are just being sent to you without having to interact with player stores which has an impact on crafters and traders. i wouldnt mind if it was just the stock ship but getting high grade ship parts is just too much.
@yungsofa8084 no, it would drive player based community by offering ways to obtain UEC and a means of spending it as well to balance the use of bigger ships and possibly RMT... If you can get players to craft higher tier ships, they need to buy insurance this would add a UEC (money) sink sized with the value of the ship. If players want to craft a ship, they need to obtain the blueprint and research it. You could gain the requirements to earn access to the blueprint you can then either buy with UEC or comes with your pledge. Then you could craft and scrap a bunch of them for experience, maybe you could upgrade specific aspects of the chassis or use different materials to augment the stats (tier) of a ship. There are so many ways this could actually be a good thing, this is just one example of limiting wealth.
@@sjoervanderploeg4340 yea limiting wealth is great but what i care about more is player interactions and player purpose. This currently is a duping system. i take your ship and parts that were crafted by someone and then you get the same ship and parts back. Now me and you never have to interact with a trader for these parts and ships again. Then we multiply that a couple of times and you could see how this could damage the market and reduce value for parts and reduce the amount being sold. You cant say this is good in anyway you look at this thing. why are we creating more problems? let ships and parts be money sinks why do we need to make insurancee the money sinks and then let people dupe and then take away player purpose. my brain just doesnt work that way and ive worked on games before.i dont know who approved this and i wonder what the crafting and economy people think about this.
@@sjoervanderploeg4340 its not a good thing at all. you are making a system where i can take your ship and its parts and then you get them back. now everytime someone takes my ship or your ship we are removing buyers from the market while all getting these parts back if we lose them. the value for ships and ship parts are gonna drop cause people are just taking them from people with insurance. i dont understand why you and CIG create problems for no reason and then fix them with more problems. we dont need tier 2 and 3 as a money sink we need PARTS to be the money sink where actual players see the money.
Ship Insurance and ship/progression loss is what caused me to eventually drop E:D. Losing hard earned progress in games is simply poor form. If a new ship is earned in game then it shouldn't be able to be taken away (post 1.0). Real world 'backing' purchases should have no bearing on this. The cost of losing a ship should be limited to minor progress such as upgrades. Being booted back down to a start ship after many hours will drive players away.
Every IRL bought ships must be able to get back. You payd for it you keep it. If you remove that you kill the game, nobody will pay real money for the ships if you can loose it. people will then stick to in-game ships and the game then has to get money somehow to stay online. But with today market people will hold there money to other more important stuff then games
So I got an issue with that. The devs have gotten half a billion dollars in funding already. This should pay for 200 years of online presence. Devs are spending it all in real houses and cars while we got the digital version.
@@JosefK2275 I agree with that. But that does not effect the ships. For normal gamer like me that don’t have all day to grind and grind again due to I loose my ship to pvp players, npcs or server errors. I like to own a ship I like and have that and grind for other less important ships when I have the time
Not to mention they have ships that cost over 1000 USD. This is enough to buy almost 17 AAA games. Just imagine the uproar if Steam erased 17 AAA games from people's libraries.
@@feomec Yeah, it's pay2win, get over it. Losing ships would just make it even more pay2win, just with more money. This is a videogame. The model will be compared to other videogames, and in every game where you buy "premium" vehicles you keep them. I feel like poeple just never played a videogame in their LIVES while discusing this project for some reason.
Battle pass for arena commander, subscription gives some bonus to certain missions or temporary rep increase for something for the month (basically PU battle pass), purchase cosmetics paints for weapons/armour/ships - but they are X number so can be lost, players can create them they get a certain uec for sales.
From day one, in the Kickstarter, It was stated that there would be NO SUBSCRIPTIONS. If they were to add a subscription requirement, they would have legal problems, and thousands of people refunding accounts.
@@zantrag what legal problem? sounds like nonsense. They could 100% have a subscription that gives you bonuses in game for missions etc and extra access in the game. The idea that they would be sued for it is complete nonsense. Good luck to whoever wants to. If ship sales crashed then cig shutdown and there's no nothing for anyone. No one is getting any money back it's been spent, and if anything is given back it goes from biggest to smallest. Biggest being the *actual* investers who put in over 17 million. I think it might be a lot more than that. They will get the money from liquidating whatever they have left.
People who played Ultima Online think they are smarter, but I played it for two years and I'll tell you what I learned after having my moment of tears. I learned to leverage the game rules to always put me at advantage, not skill. I learned to keep my rare items in my museum and never use them. It's not the competitive beautiful gameplay people keep bragging about. Stop glorifying garbage.
The ship itself is the biggest cost in the game. I think non player commercial components should be insurable. They could make black market or military grade components that are not insurable. Commercial ships are a different question. High quality components should be insurable on non combat ships.
Just make it so that the insurance claims require the items to actually be crafted and shipped in game in order for the claim to be filled. If a real person doesn't take up the work in a certain amount of time its given to an NPC. This woild balance the economy and allow crafters to take insurance claim tickets with in game mechanics ans reputation.
CIG must make every. single. fking. thing. overcomplicated. This gets really tiresome after so many years. It's a real money asset, it's etenal wile the game exists, cut the masturbation.
This. They need to quit thinking they can influence CIG to make the game that THEY wanna play. There are 5.3 million accounts. At least 4.5 million of those are difficult people. I don't see 4.5 million people being ok with losing everything they've busted their asses for. There needs to be a way to keep stuff permanently, or people will just not engage with the pvp side.
The issue is imho that people will get reckless with their storebought stuff, or simply dont care about loosing it, making encounters meaningless. And cutlet coming from a piracy background would obviously be annoyed when the oposition just keels over and doesnt resist. And longterm the economy will break down when all people sit on billions of auec...
This discussions is just three guys who play for a living and have zero understanding of what the average working man or woman can do in game in a week. Who cares if we have LTI on a whale account with 20 ships when there are over 200 ships (and counting) in game? Stop pretending content will run out, or that buying ships is even the 'main' content at all. It's not. I've been playing 9 years with much less content than what is planned for 1.0. I'm sure most non TH-camrs will have years worth of content to engage with.
I 100% agree. It’s actually laughable how they say now that those who spent $$$ on ships should lose their stuff permanently… But would be the first ones crying to the community about it. I for the most part enjoy watching these but this is a bit much for them lol. CIGs new insurance/warranty feature is the best way to not make the game “PTW” but still allow those who’ve been BACKERS for years to have a safety net for what they invested in.
They don't play for a living. They make content for a living. Recording, editing, and writing scripts. At some point Mike said that he's getting burnt out making the Week in Review. Do you think Mike gets to play that much?
Its ok to have real cash ships back with basic loadout. Giving people blueprints is rediculous idea (assuming they have to buy materials and wait days for a ship exactly like players with in game purchased vessels) it was never part of the deal. Real cash buyers will still need to wait possibly days for bigger ship so it is ok. Crafted weapons and components should never come from insurance, its ok if individual item are on separate individual warranty as money sink. You have realised 14 years deep its pay for convinience pay to win game with this model? Kind of late. Not to mention even after final release ships will blow up due to bugs... its star citizen after all.
You should be able to MOD components thru crafting to make them better, but only get the unmodded version of that component back even with the best insurance
They have yet to show any prowess balancing or even basic game design. This fucks player economy, and sure they will adjust it, but THATS THE POINT. They have no good ideas from day one… it’s always trash that has to be redesigned or changed. They can’t plan a game properly when they use marketing to get there. They will drive everyone off well before tier 2 crafting
How is LTI a major advantage now ??! It's just T1 insurance, it just means you don't have to pay an unknown ammount to get your ships on warranty back. LTI just saves money. We don't know how much, and we're likely still gonna have to pay insurance premiums if we loose our ships often. LTI is slight money buff TO BE BALANCED. It's not OP ! Stop saying it is, you have no way of knowing and CIG will balance it based on our feedback.
Pledged ships get a warranty Non-pledged ships can get transferrable warranties of which you'll get a few. It effectively means you have a fleet of "warranty ready" ships. Pledged ships are always on that ready fleet. In-game purchased ships need to be swapped in and out of that fleet before you take them out. Transferrable warranties are "ready slots". There's a timer to swap a ship in one of those slots, but that timer can work itself while you do something else with another ship. Pledged ships are more convenient but not busted. Calm down.
lets just say you buy a brand new car and as your driving it off the lot it just explodes, now the sales guy walks up and says sorry you didnt have insurance so your gonna have to buy a whole new car..... I know things are bad in America but surely even you slabs can see the problem here. In first world countries we call this kind of coverage implied warranty where a product must be fit for service and operate without malfunction in standard conditions for a reasonable amount of time which is usually 1-2 years
It’s cool talking about this hard-core stuff. I guess in 10 years if the elevators work and the trains run on time, I don’t blow up on the landing pad on a very soft landing. It will be cool, but that’s another billion dollars away. Speculation is a good time and fun for a community with no game to play.
I agree on many points in this discussion regarding insurance, but what I would say Is not Everton has the luxury of getting paid to play the game.
I have very limited time to play. I agree that upgraded weapons and components should not be covered the ships hull should be insured at the base level. So you have something to work for. But I think getting my hornet back with all its insured parts(non-upgraded) that’s fine.
In reality we will all be in orgs that churn all these ships and components out.
6m, 120m and LTI have to have a purpose, but I’d rather see them be just that, clock starts ticking at 1.0
This was a great episode guys!
I think you guys are being almost paranoid. The ONLY reason the warranty exists is the pledge store. They added it to gameplay rewards to help level P2W gap. They are NOT gonna give us T5 replacements for free. They don't HAVE to, because they never sold any for real cash.
MAYBE there shouldnt be insurance for upgraded components. Else, the player crafting economy will not boom.
Thought experiment on the topic of insurance and the loss of components. The assumption is that when I get my components back, I will no longer buy them from Mike in the shop, but my insurance company will give them to me. What if there was a mechanic that the insurance company would use the money it receives from players as a premium and would have to buy the component in a shop? Logically, where it is the cheapest? Then at least Mike would possibly receive a message that component xy has been purchased by the insurance company?
This if you insure special weapons from mike, the insurance company only has one places to get such bespoke weapons, hence a new sale.
100% how i thought this worked
Sounds cool, but what if Mike doesn't have the replacement stock? Dos the player that paid for insurance have to wait for Mike to make the item now, or does Mike just get the money without putting the effort in to make a replacement?
Edit: I guess it's not a problem if replaced components/weapons are just stock ones, but if it's a crafted item of a higher grade, we run into issues.
@@beavschannel5217 not something we couldnt make work, what if he got a work order - so he had to make the component and deliver it to the person who insured it, who also doesnt get it until mike makes it. and gets a cash alternateive if mike doesnt / cant etc etc - just theory but it could be done in a way which engages the economy.
orr...what if for non stock components - only cash alternative was offered so they had to come back themselves.
CIG needs people to pay for ships, forever. Yes, even after 1.0. Somebody who puts in $750 is going to be way ahead of somebody putting in $50. Nothing will change it.
I've played well over a dozen mmos in the past 25 years and death has never mattered in any of them.
Death doesn't matter in Tarkov after the first 3 days of a wipe. I kind of laugh when Mike says "let's be like Tarkov". Tarkov hasn't mastered this either. Tarkov doesn't really have an end game. At best death is just wasting you're time and this is what the players hate and BSG continually tries to fix with saved loadouts, QoL tools, stash management during serving searching etc.
The only one i played that it mattered was Everquest way back when you had to go and recover your corpse or you would lose everything on it. They eventually added graveyards the body would move to but before that I remember some stressful evenings corpse running for 20 or 30 people to save their gear, and that felt tense knowing it could just be gone. Without the risk of loss it is meaningless.
Your 25-year experience is either very limited, or you've actively avoided MMOs with heavy death penalties.
WoW hardcore and Wizardry Online literally have/had permadeath.
Everquest had exp debt and corpse runs; you could delevel in FF11 with exp debt.
Eve Online was punishing as hell back in the day of SP clones and no plex. Dying for some meant losing weeks of real-time skill training.
And how did it go?
Exactly, and I don't want to this game to be anything like Tarkov or Eve which have increased stakes for dying to make up for the lack of features and gameplay loops elsewhere. There is no rule that the thrill of playing an MMO should come from the fear of dying and losing progress. For me it comes from exploration and interaction with other players through events, trading or helping each other solve a pve problem.
We can't talk about insurance before we even know what the game looks like. Right now if you are playing salvage/mining tier 0, sure, then put in "death of space man", "lose everything insurance", or whatever you want. On the other hand if you are a racer and the idea is you will respawn at the hospital, then reclaim the ship, then fly all around the verse to re-equip various components, then go back to racing area this idea is obviously laughable.
In general even if insurance has a cost to it CIG probably still needs to look at ways to reduce real world time wasting in the game.
50:25 No idea why this is so hard and even Jared cleared it up. If you purchase a ship on the website, when the ship is destroyed, you get a new one with ORGINAL COMPONENTS after a TIMER. If said player purchased Level 2 insurance, the player gets CREDITS for the VALUE difference between stock and the upgrades. The same applies to Level 3, a player gets CREDITS for the VALUE difference. So, for Cutlet's scenario, He would get his ship back with ORGINAL COMPONENTS and CREDITS for the lost UPGRADED Components. That means he would have to fly back to Mike to BUY THE WEAPONS AGAIN. The only magical duping via Insurance is getting a new ship with original components.
andwho is to determine the value the insurance has to pay? this is a ludicrous idea
@@timkreis8543the cost of the component minus wear and tear. They were VERY clear. This bunch on the podcast is just trying to overcomplicate the already complicated insurance warranty system
And who is to determine the price of 850 quality copper compared to 860 quality copper or the work to increase your tier of the blueprint?
@timkreis8543 StarSim
Ah magic I see…
my only issue with losing things on death, is griefers. we all know people that have an alt account, or multiple... who cares if they pad ram you on an alt? they dont, CIG dont, so it's just a shitty feeling losing something because a person is a douchebag.
like, log in with only a few hours to play, get griefed and then lose the best BP i have because of NOTHING i did... yeah just shitty all around.
Can’t lose blueprints after you have “examined” them or whatever term you want to use they said it’s bound to your account
@ their discussion is based off the death of a spaceman part, where they want people to lose something.
That was my relation to them, I am glad we don’t lose them, but their idea had loopholes
@@jsullivan649 I don’t beleive blueprints fell under that banner but could be wrong we just don’t know enough stuff yet
@@logancole9767 oh sorry i was refering to Mike and the guys talking about changes they wanted to see!
I didnt mean CIG themselves!
Didnt they say tier 2 & 3 was just getting the UEC value of those upgraded parts.😮 Warranty +T1 means you get the base ship back in an operational state
Try to remember, CIG is NOT trying to re-create Eve Online, or WOW. Star Citizen needs to take it's own path.
Player crafted items should ONLY be replaced, if the player that created the item, gets the insurance money.
Items of any quality level, purchased in-game, from a kiosk, or NPC dealership should be insured & replaced.
Ships purchased in the pledge store MUST be replaced at the appropriate level of insurance. Period. Nothing
prevents CIG from excluding player-crafted items, from the insurance program; protecting their uniqueness!
Exclusive items, gained thru grinding, or completing certain missions, are just lost. Re-grind for another one.
That can't work in all cases. They HAVE to give us things we can't lose. Like rewards for doing the Main Story Quest, those should ALL be account bound. If there isn't a way for people to keep things forever, then they simply will never take their good things out, there'll never be anything good for pvp players to loot, cause we'll just roll with stock components and a sperm suit, nothing special to loot.
there is nothing unique about a crafted item. It's just the same old stats grind so you'll just insure it. That's why they have tier 3 for components and equipment. All of this tier crap is manufactured grind anyway to drive up investor demanded KPIs so you can bet they will put enough grind walls on everything to ensure the game is an insufferable mess. insurance simply makes it a tad more bearable
I've never played Eve or WOW and I totally agree with them. As someone who has been waiting years for crafting and a player economy, this massively steps on crafting and player to player trading. I don't get how anyone can suggest it's better for the game, the economy and crafting in general if I only have to craft the highest level components once and then I can dupe and hand them out to all my friends, completely bypassing all the gameplay that comes with it. Crafting is essential for the longevity of the game due to CIG's business model. Otherwise UEC is the only meaningful reward and you can achieve anything in the game without doing anything other than whatever loop generates the most cash. Also, it's not up to me or you to say what CIG is trying to do or not do. Nothing they have said so far has suggested that you will or will not get back ships or components above base level quality.
@@cmdrls212 Jesus christ touch grass. Adding actual meaningful gameplay and a player to player economy is "driving up investor KPIs".
@Super-id7bq what gameplay. it's just player grind to drive up investor value and mtx conversion. you thought CIG was different?
SaltyEMike: But who are the Space Dad Crafters suppose to sell to?
Most Players: NPCs who else?
SC (and all business) runs around the money that comes in (ship sales) and the money that will continue to come in (from Ship sales). CiG will continue to get money and give advantage to those who pay 💰 vs those who do not pay. Because giving advantages to those who pay will bring in more money 💰
I bet CiG will sell ANYTHING that makes money. e.g. Warranties. Remember, they sold Land Claims...
Yes just wait they will be selling lifetime Tier 2 warranties on the pledge store. And it will probably double the price of the ship you are buying. 😆 "LTI&W2"
I think the issue of insurance on the economy could be not an issue, we don’t know how those warranty replacements are sourced, if a quanta npc or even better a dynamic player mission goes to get that upgraded component from Mike’s shop and delivers it to the insurance location then the player economy is preserved and players wait time for insurance will depend on the availability of their components on the market.
What i would like to see in terms of ships bought from the pledge store is.
If you buy a ship from the pledge store with 3 month insurance.
When your ship gets destroyed you get a Tier 0 ship back while ur ship is insured.
Same for LTI or 10 year insurance , LTI always getting back a Tier 0 ship , 12 month insurance , for 12 months you get back a Tier 0 ship.
And ofcourse being able to extend that insurance for any pledged / crafted / ingame bought ship.
But the exact bonus , give us a Tier 0 blueprint for the ship we bought from the pledge store.
With the blueprints of any tier , just being hard to get ingame. And skipping that by buying it from the pledge store.
However , to get a higher Tier blueprint , you would still need to find a higher Tier ingame , or find a 2nd Tier 0 blueprint , to be able to upgrade that blueprint.
Basicly , the blueprint you get thru the pledge store , has unlimited use. But can never be upgraded.
And if you want a Tier 5 of that ship , you need to find another Blueprint , and spend time and effort to research that blueprint , and getting a higher tier , and X amount of useage out of that Blueprint.
There are super simple fixes to SpaceCutlet's problems with insurance.
1. Rare components are not covered by insurance (event or raid rewards, most alien stuff...)
2. Components with warranty come back 1 or 2 tier lower than they were
3. Gathering missions are generated to get components of a certain quality to a station based on components often replaced with warranty there (to simulate the warranty's sink on economy)
I have spent over $15,000 USD backing this project.
Everything I own has LTI.
I want stock ship stock components return.
If we lose a ship I do not want everything that's upgraded back. This will not only ruin the game for me for others too.
Reason why I bought everything with LTI was I did not want to have to track what was insured and what was not insurance.
I knew right from the get-go I was going to have a large fleet of ships.
I probably own by now over 50 ships of vehicles. All these years I was thinking that maybe LTI would be like a discount on higher tear insurance. Like 10% off or 20% off? Over any in games UEC bought ship.
Edit: I did not want to have to grind for any ships or vehicles in game. This gameplay is not appealing or fun for me. So I chose to buy everything with real life money.
Salty Mike however thanks. I screwed myself out of gameplay. Gameplay I'm not interested in mind you.
I am interested in resource grinding crafting ship components, armors guns and etc. so the resource gathering is a must must have and being able to use such resources to better my fleet and my person.
If u are not intressted in the gameplay? What are the ships for?
@amaterasu5001 you might have misunderstood me I am not interested. In gameplay that would be associated with grinding for UEC so one could pay for ships. I want to already have the ships. I was interested in game play. That was grinding for resources to better the fleet that I already own. If I was interested in mining, I want to already have the ship to go mining with. I didn't want to have to grind money and reputation or even for blueprints to build a mining ship. I could just go flat out mining.
@@Metro2MetroI find it strange people don’t get this. I bought an expensive ship so that I can repair stuff and salvage. Those are the loops I’m into. So really all that has happened is I have skipped to the bit I wanna do. And I intend to do it forever…. Assuming insurance doesn’t screw it over.
@Embarkation1 you are totally correct sir. I skipped the bits. I don't want to do. Then start on day one on the bits I'm really interested in.
Everybody has their own vision, on what they're going to do in the game. In addition to what they think they're going to enjoy.
When we publicly announced. The gameplay they're looking forward to. We'd rather skip that step. That's where the misunderstanding comes from.
I absolutely love the idea of store bought ships providing a blueprint for the ship over offering a "warranty" - leave those to be earnable in game. Blueprints offer that perfect blend of "you have it forever" with an appropriate level of punishment required in needing the right infrastructure/resources to reproduce your ship.
I was thinking in this direction for subscriber flair and some other items we have in our hangar. Especially since they talked about ownerships not only for pledged ships, but also important items. And the fact they mentioned we will be able to craft subscriber flair items.
But you are kind of trading one evil for another, are you acquiring a Javelin, Sabre Raven or Star Kitten armor for yourself at that point or for the blueprint so you can craft those for other players? The source of the problem is selling something that isn't purely cosmetic in the first place.
love it when guests show up
Love to see Cutlet on more.
Min 44 i am all in for the insurance to give me my tier5 ship back when i insured a tier5 ship.
To day when i have a fully customized Porsche, let the surveyer see it and pay a adequate insurance i get the money for a rebuild WITH THE CUSTOMIZATION.
And tbo i have a real life and a job and no time ore motivation to loose my 6 month progress over a fucking zerg group.
I think guys you seeing the Economy of this game in 2D, Lets scale it in 3D.. Everything as scale in SC. How the warranty would be a working way for the crafting gameplay.
1- the inssurance price go up or down in function of the average price market for an item in that sector. So if you take a tier 3 warranty with full recovery at tthe moment you take that warranty it will calculate all the item you have in your ships and give you a price based on the market price of those items. so price of issurance are variables and not fixed.
2. Every time an item is claimed it goes into a calculation of inventory and those calculation of inventory will create missions for crafters, example 30 000 pico have been requested, the Star sim system create missions for a few 200 pico requested..
The crafter take the mission and craft 200 picos.. that also create delivery mission cuz you need to deliver 200 pico or more.
3.As aplayer you can also either take contract by star sim or create your own store, selling rarest items in that sector
4. timers on ships request must also be variable... if almost no one is making idris at the moment, the time for an idris request will be very long.. if there is multiple peaples creating them the timer is less...
I think that star sim need to create mission based on economy and sector of activity.. that was the goal from the get go... and doing that you can still add NPC economy into it and keep the crafting elements to fufill the universe need of comodity...i item out for a client an item need to be in for the next client.... dynamic economy and also dynamic missions.
i think the main issue is joe crafted a tier 5 ship part and it has been duped 100 times in 2 months and now multiple players have joe's ship parts without ever buying from him or his duped(stolen) parts are being sold on the market while the person who keeps losing there parts gets an unlimited supply of Joe's ship parts.
@@yungsofa8084 you cannot dupped ship. if you steal a ship ok you can make it your own or you can rip it appart and sell it into peice just like a stolen car business in real life but when joe go claim his ship.. a new mission is created on star sim that a ship need to be created for joe.. either by a player crafter or a npc in the simulation*not phisically create it doing all the complex animation like a player but running through a simulation... so with taht you have still an economy where player can inffluence it but you cannot completely unbalance it because you have also NPC simulated that can take those mission too and regulate the economy.
@@FulguroGeek i think you are confused i said "ship parts" not "ship". as far as joe is concerned he has less people buying items because there is multiple copies from original crafted pieces that are in the game not being purchased through joe or other sellers like joe. By the way i do see what you mean about the simulated aspect that we dont see that drives market values and etc but i cant think of one game that has a player driven economy where you can get back the things that would move the most in the market without player to player transactions. After raw mats ships and ship parts would have super high traffic for sales and people that play in markets would like to see there work being moved how it should.
@@yungsofa8084 you get the thing back but that create new mission for joe or other seller. example :one tier 5 ship with tier 5 components...that ship get claimed for whatever reason...if the ship has been stolen the pirate have it but thats the same ship...you cannot really duplicate it magically, example you give it to someone and you make it seems like it has been stolen so you claim it now there is 2 ships that true, but the ship you claimed created a mission for a crafter to create a ship tier 5...so joe can create another ship tier 5 as a crafter..... if there is 200 ship claimed there is 200 mission or bigger missions like a mission that require the creation of 10 tier 5 ships so as a crafter .. basically my point is everytime an item get claimed it need to be manufactured by a player or an npc, if you claim 1000 ships the game need to manufacture 1000 ships. in real life your inssurance and nothing get dupped its impossible an object you by 2 time need to be manufactured 2 times
@@FulguroGeek im not gonna lie you lost me for a min but now i understand what you mean and this approach isnt half bad. i still rather have no insurance for ship components but this is a solution i wouldnt complain about. i think you have looked at this thing differently then most and i gotta give you a +1 for that. This mixed with warranty limited in lawless systems is honestly the perfect balance to everything.
I think it would be interesting to have a game loop where if you have a higher tier of insurance and your ship is destroyed, a mission is created for someone to go and create an insurance claim. So they go and collect as many components from the ship and return them to a location. For anything that was not returned is filed as lost and the credit value is returned instead.
The reason everyone is complaining about 4.0 being gutted is because it's ALWAYS the same old thing with CIG, over hype under deliver, how many fucking years have we been waiting for it? And despite them cutting half of it, it will STILL be a broken fucking mess, they can't even deliver a fucking ship sale patch without breaking everything AND IT'S STILL BROKEN! Despite hot fix after hot fix, so if it's going to be broken just leave it all in and let it all be broken together, we might even have a miracle and have something work, that they removed be the only thing worth doing but I guess we'll never know now. And they get butthurt when people call them incompetent is it any reason why?
What I don’t agree with is what was said about ship claim times will take as long as it takes to build one yourself. Only crafted ships should take that long. A store bough ship should take as long as it currently takes. About the time to have one flown to your location from the location of the store it was purchased from.
I think wear and tear will be one of the main driving factors for repair and crafting, together with upgrading.
My idea to fix a possible infinite item insurance glitch hurting crafting loops would be to have supply contracts for the insurance companies. This still leaves problems, but there are no prefect solutions. Think of this as step one of an SC Insurance Swiss Cheese Model.
This assumes ships with warranty and tier 2 or tier 3 insurance will replace items rather than paying replacement value, blueprints, or something else. Don't worry about replacement timelines not matching, it's game magic.
1. The claimant makes an insurance claim where, in the proper time, they get their item.
2. Simultaneously, the insurance company places a "replacement crafting job" for X.
3. If there is an original player crafter for an item they get first right of refusal.
4. Next, random crafters can accept the crafting job.
5. Finally, if no player will craft the item, an NPC will take the job.
In the past, they talked about about an integrated economy where insurance claim times would be variable based on availability of replacements. So far, they've been fudging that with static times. But one way this could be fixed id if your ability to get your ship back with a tier 3 component depends on people (and perhaps some percentage coming from NPCs) creating those components, which would then depend on a supply of raw materials being fed into the economy to create those components.That could further depend on crafters being willing to sell their output to insurance companies or vendors willing to buy those goods at a fixed price. Done correctly, this could lead to the raw material and crafter supply chain having an impact on (1) how much component insurance costs because it would depend on how much miners charge high-end raw materials and crafters charge for high-end components and (2) how long it takes to get your replacement ship such that component insurance could be both very expensive and delay getting the ship replace substantially. And taking a cue from real life, a player who frequently loses their ships should have to pay significantly higher component replacement insurance than a player who rarely loses a ship.So while CIG changes their mind about a lot of things, I think it's premature to assume (1) that crafters won't benefit from component insurance (they may, if there are institutional buyers for their good and they have some say in how much they sell advanced goods), (2) that component insurance won't further delay replacement and that replacement times will remain as low as they currently are, (3) that component insurance won't be significantly expensive and won't get more expensive if you make a lot of claims.
100% insurance and warranty, you get your pledged ship back as a one time soulbound blueprint, and a % in currency to help you get on your way to being able to rebuild, and depending on how you recraft it, you add your upgrades then. A ship bought in game same deal without the blueprint. You dont lose your ship from the pledge store, you still own it, but its currently destroyed until you fix it, and if thats from ground up, so be it. Even if its an account locked currency that you can only spend at a special place for rebuilding pledge ships. But then, its almost the same thing, and itll come down to rebuild time, which they mentioned.
When you're in Lawless = You get stock (T0) ship, components and decorations back (Warranty). When you're in Lawful = You get stock (T0) ship and components decorations back (Warranty) PLUS varying UEC Payment (Insurance). T0 needs to be usable for basic PvE/Flight only. Job Done.
You guys should invite some folks on your show who aren’t content creators who play video games for a living.
aaa they already do that in the calls at the end talking about the story of the day? what would be the point to add someone extra? I would like to see more content creators in the main part like today.
Content creators don't play video games for a living. They make content for a living! Recording, editing, and writing scripts.
You mean like they literally do when they invite callers on?
Nice to know what Croncy thinks of the shows callers….
Instead of duplicating items, CIG should pull needed components from player inventories first, creating missions to deliver them if they’re available. This boosts the economy by connecting players, encouraging trade, and making every delivery meaningful.
A game without bugs as a prerequisite to insurance.
Also, CIG can nerf anything. With respect to the custom "component" it makes no difference. As we've all experienced CIG can and will make a MKII of something and nerf the current meta, for its newest meta. So Mike's "gun" it can be nerfed just like our powerplants and QD's in the current patch, and everybody gets the same utility out of their device. Moreover what if the component you buy is 20% better, and you get attacked by 5 experienced players, will that 20% offset 5X difference? I don't think so.
Also with blueprints. I prefer croncys approach or limit the quantity someone can fully research to the max. Make people specialize.
Imagine LTI not being what it is. LIFE TIME INSURANCE. Woooh I can smell the lawsuits. "I think you shouldn't get it back" yeah... Keep on thinking that.
@saltemike what isn't your thoughts on the reclaimer cargo. Offloading the cargo is a super chore, you can only safely put 2 to 3 of the 16scu containers on the elevator. There is no cargo grid on it. Does the reclaimer just need a total rework or is there a way to fix it?
Is there any chance you could release these podcasts on Spotify?
Life Time Insurance was always going to be a contentious issue. If SC was to ever go true MMO, LTI would have to be nerfed somehow. The current plan should be sufficient enough that when a player loses their ship, they can get their stuff back. LTI just means you don't have to pay a fee long term. The only issue I have with LTI currently is that while the loophole of spawning a ship, giving it to a friend who 'pirates' it, and claiming a new one is closed, you can still spawn infinite weapons/modules by insuring a ship with the most slots and constantly reclaiming it.
The more I listened, the more an idea hit me that probably solves all aspects of concerns here. Create a rotation that can be adjusted monthly, of a # of ships that would be full return (cargo excluded. purchased player-crafted items also excluded) per player. Then everything else the player has and insured, is only base. For base players, they get 1 ship. For backers of anything more than a base pledge but less than $1000, they get 2. For concierge they get 3. Simple.
This way, people who paid into the game, get a little reward / benefit of convenience. But it doesn't disrupt economy long term because if you want to do anything besides 1 or 2 game play loops, you won't be able to without risk and engagement with the other players.
This appeases those who can only play infrequently: they spend the time to grind once, from that point forward they are set as long as it's only the limited game loops they want to play. They also have the flexibility to rotate out every month to try other game play loops.
This appeases those who want crafting and economy to mean something: the limitation makes it so players will have to engage with the other players to expand past their 1 game loop.
This will also be very beginner friendly, making initial progress not feel so bad like you're losing everything. But by limiting the amount of ships, you won't have everything that benefits from this in game, which as players grow and expand, they will take on those risks.
Yes you want to kill Star Citizen instantly? Tell people their IRL bought ships are gone after being destroyed. 😆 Space cutlet is 100% right. That is 'non-negotiable'.
Meh, I'd be fine with it. I kind of wish I didn't have this giant fleet anyways. Will probably just melt the whole thing on 1.0.
@TimOnTheNet if ship loss was told to supporters on DAY 1... Then ok. But it wasn't. So they are stuck with them being replaced. (& pretty sure they'd not have made 700+ million had it been so)
I don't think anyone is seriously arguing for that option anymore. They've been selling ships far too long and promising insurance to keep them. The question is how do we implement loss in a way that allows the game to continue on long term. If no one ever loses anything, then eventually we'll all have everything we want and the game will slowly die.
@Spike.SpiegeI I don't know if it's true anymore but... They said when the game launches you can only buy newly released ships in game. Now whether they changed their minds, or were lying in the first place... 🤷
@@Dracounguis I would love to see that system implemented but I doubt it. I think they'll always sell ships in the store because they make so much money from it. Personally I'd like them to start selling only cosmetics in the store which don't give anyone an advantage. Between being able to place custom logos on ships and with base building coming in, the ability to sell cosmetics becomes nearly endless.
Here's an idea: all warranties have a period of time that they can be fulfilled by players. That way the money for the warranty ships DOES go to other players.
Where is Quantum Boosting? And Vehicles, on in-hangar Cargo lifts! and Ladders that actually work? All Gone!
I wonder if you will be able to resell crafted ships...
48:55 Maybe insurance claims for player crafted items can only be filled by players. If spacecutlet loses his gun maybe the claim is filled by a system that is replenished by players. Mike could sell to traders that take the guns and in turn sell them to an insurance warehouse that stockpiles the items. If there's no item available could be a cash pay out that he could take back to Mike to get another custom build.
Omg, it's so easy to solve. Give the insured player the tier 3 repeater, and the insurance buys the 6 guns from Mike.
Ore give the player the money what the tier3 cost and they can buy it from mike again.
While I think this was an interesting discussion overall, there are some over all points worth remembering:
1) CIG has been super vague about how insurance is supposed to work. Now they've pulled back the curtain, it's obviously worth discussing.
2) Most players aren't content creators and this discussion felt one sided as a content creator to another content creator. It's your podcast but that's how I felt.
3) I understand you're all passionate about this game but you need to stop interrupting especially Mike. Also there were long discussions where Croncy didn't say anything.
4) It's a Croncy and Mike show but it's still very much a Mike show.
I think if the insurance system has the ability to "buy" items that players have available for sale (they get paid if the price falls within a range, insurance charges the player who claims their deductible, the item disappears, its a potential solution
they mentioned that you can't just have unlimited level 2 insurance hinting that you can transfer it but there is a transfer time. also only citizens or people with rep with the council can get higher level insurance.
Maybe a good middle ground would be you get the factory tuned version of the component. Lets be real guys Mike isnt gonna be selling the fullly custom Salty Sprayer TM with custom model. Its gonna be the Onnisky V tuned to Mike spec. It makes sense that a big company wont be able to replicate that tuning or would even care to. So you still have to go to mike to stay at the highest level of competition.
I think this only works, if the insurance company is raising orders for the ships and weapons. That way you get job orders to supply the insurance company - instead of the player.
Im glad that we've been able to stream evo. its a waiting game with bugs. it's so easy for people to complain that there are bugs in live. and there are, but... not evo bugs.
Spacecutlets take is not a great look
Pretty sure that insurance like real life is going to give you cash to replace, warranty is going to give you base hull and loadout. The over thinking of this is a bit fearmongering.
I wanted to chime in on the blueprints. I wasn't able to when you guys were live, but I was thinking. What if the blueprints when you claim them from the terminal but you're crafting from can be hacked and stolen
I think if that you're a criminal doing criminal activity when your ship is destroyed then your insurance is invalid.
If crafting is deterministic, they could probably determine a market based cost/claim fee to refabricate custom items for the sake of in game claim fees. I feel like if in game fees are really high in those cases, it might be enough pressure to value a ship's life and offset some of the pledge store's power, if even a little.
To add a new basic Tier 1 ship manufacturing loop going, they could spit out missions to build them. So, for every ship that is "duped" by an insurance warrenty claim giving you a new ship, the game should automatically create a mission contract for players to make a T1 version of the ship/component that pays out the exact amount that the insurance payout would have been if you didn't have a warranty.
insurance claims could create missions to create and provide the replacement parts and even the ship itself. the claim time wouldn't be tied to it being fulfilled. but if someone claims a tier two ship with tier three weapons it creates a mission for those to be crafted and then delivered somewhere.
What’s going to be the worst part is that they cut all of this and they still won’t get 4.0 out in a playable state. They will release it just to say they did but it will be completely unplayable for most.
I foresee tons of Solo players who planned on only spending $50. BUT over 12+ years and 20 upgrades @ $50 found themselves in the Whale group. Only to have CIG make sure you need a team of 4+ players to play most ships and there is no way the solo can use their really cool large LTI ship.
So They melt their large LTI ship to get the largest solo playable ship with no insurance, then subscribe to insurance until their whale $1000 is gone.
While they are upset because the whole point of buying LTI was to not have to pay a $15 subscription like WOW.
I somehow am not worried about how CIG will get our money. They will! And I just hope that the game doesn't go bankrupt or players get so upset with them, that they all quit like. Starwars Galaxies.
10:07 "Not in 4.0" - they say "will reappear in incremental patch" which can mean 4.1 as well.
I'm not disappointed about stuff being removed from 4.0. If anything I think it will actually help if they do bare bones 4.0 with meshing and then release features and bug fix as they go. It will be easier for them to identify issues as they gradually implement big game changing features instead of them putting everything in at once. Meshing is literally the only thing that matters in this patch and I would much prefer them to focus on just that while refining game systems in the background so they are also in a better state. If meshing doesn't work, then there's literally no point to anything they showed in the presentations
This where the marketing decisions CIG made star hurting the game. They simply can't not give the items bought with real money when the item is lost. In game credits or tokens are not an option. There is an actual possibility of a lawsuit coming if they do that. Even having to buy ships without LTI in game feels dodgy and I expect this to change. I wouldn't be surprised if they change it later to T1 insurance for ships without LTI and full warranty for the ones that do have LTI.
Blueprints shouldn't get corrupted, that's dumb. It's just data after all. The way crafting should be limited is not by degrading or losing blueprints but rather by the scarcity of materials. Just like when you craft a legendary weapon in Guild Wars 2, there should be some special resources you need that are seperate from mineables and are given out in extremely limited quantities, this prevents people from mass producing high tier items.
If I get a rare component that I could lose, I'm never taking it out of storage. It will sit and rot in a museum.
The problem of insurance duping comes only with PVP (or null sec zones), so you must loose the items when pirated by a nother player. but then you wouldnt want to go with your highest tier components in the first place.
Could space cutlets point be resolved by maybe saying crafted parts cannot be insured? Only things that can be bought? Or if you insure a fully hand crafted ship. Every component is hand crafted, every weapon etc. they still have what's considered a base component. Insurance only returns that base component. So it may be upgraded compared to their stock components (maybe all A class components) but they are all the standard ones that can be bought in game. Better than if you didn't pay for the better insurance but it'll never be the same as that hand crafted ship you had. You'll need to work for that back (be it crafting or buying back from someone like Mike or honestly myself).
! would hope they "checkmark" the items in the 1.0 roadmap when they move to another branch.
What if dupe your ships with the insurance and warranty and have your friends steal them then claim ownership. So now u can hand out free ships
To me this would be the best way to do insurance. Going to use small numbers but it would be based off server size and other things. Let's say an npc factory can have max 100 Connie Taurus on hand. That factory can only build 2 Taurus per day and only has enough supplies to build 10 and auto resupply enough for 2 per week. As people buy or do an insurance claim on the Taurus it's ship supply goes down and they start building max 2 per day. As it's supply gets lower and lower the cost to buy one goes up, maybe 2% to 5% for every 10 ships under 100. Cost only affects player buying the ship not insurance. Once the factory is down to 50% of its resources, missions go out for players to bring resources. Once the ship supply goes to 50% missions go out for players to build ships for the factory. If the factory runs out of ships, players can't buy that ship and insurance claims get put into a que. For insurance claims the factory could have tier 1 thru 5 in stock, but not purchasable. But same thing happens when they get low they ask players to build say tier 5 Taurus's.
This concept works for everything from components to weapons and so on. This way crafters have a reason to make items still even if players are not buying it from them, the factory/insurance is buying it. The factory increasing the price is for when it has to buy from player crafters. Item normal price is 2 million, by the time the player is doing quest the price is 2.2 million. Player makes 2 mil and factory makes 200k
I've played MMOs since the mid 90s, starting with Ultima Online. Among those, I include those with really strong penalties to death like FFXI for years (there you could spend one year grinding to try to level up, to instead lose some). And the most hardcore they were, the less people played them and for shorter periods. Even in Ultima Online where you lost everything on you when you were killed, sending most players to play in PvE shards. And in none of those you could lose gear paid with real money.
In Star Citizen where people pay hundreds (or even thousands) for their ships, it's simply not feasible to have a hardcore mode that includes PvP for everyone where paid ships could be lost and would require more than a progressive reasonable countdown or a small fee in in-game credits. The idea of having blueprints that would require weeks and intense grinding to get the materials, is simply not feasible IMHO. One thing is to play the game, the other is to turn your life into the game. I could see the existence of hardcore shards where that could happen, but not in mainstream shards. It would kill the game for most backers.
On the other hand, restrictions like just receiving the base components while getting paid for the upgraded ones, that I believe it could work if explained properly and always allowing a special protection for certain items (for example cosmetic ones). That way most "casuals" would simply use vanilla ships (like when nowadays many people use the white suit you get for free when killed), while the sweaty hardcore without lives would be able to have tuned ones.
I feel like they still dont understand fully what the LTI is..... they way i heard it was that LTI is still the duration of time u have the level 1 insurance..... but if you bought it on like you have the warranty for the duration of the purchased insurance on the web site
All pledge ships have lifetime warranty and appropriate level of insurance was what they said. That means if you bought a ship with 6 months insurance, you will still have a lifetime warranty. Insurance covers the cost, it pays you to get back upgraded components minus the cost of wear and tear.
@1:58:31 The ammount of time to craft or research is irrelevant when players participants increase. Case and point Eve's first titan was built so fast the game asset wasn't even finished yet.
I think croncy is misunderstanding the specialization part.
From how they described it, you are not specializing a specific blueprint for better speed or power. You are specializing in this one specific blueprint (for example, a hornet) which makes you a hornet crafter and not a gladius crafter.
You have and want to specialize because the research to level up the blueprints is expensive and time-consuming which makes it unrealistic for almost all players to have high level blueprints of all the stuff in the game from fps weapons over components to ships.
Where is the player progression if all your stuff gets reset by insurance cash-out or character death. There's no player attachment. I think this warrants more discussion.
If I pay for a ship and lose it forever. I'm not playing and I want out my money back.
If they would loose your ship that you paid for with real money it will 100% end up in a lawsuit.
Blueprints and insurance could be money sinks.
Insurance you will want to refresh so you buy it with store credit or UEC in-game.
Blueprints could be prohibitively expensive, you are obtaining the knowledge of crafting something, but could also come with the purchase of a pledge or in-game ship (like a service manual) that you have do research on to be able to craft the best possible tier of that blueprint.
No, server meshing will not make the verse feel alive... yes, you will see more people going around and it will feel more occupied... it will only ever feel alive when MMO staples come to Star Citizen!
What does EVERY city have in any MMO that drives players of all levels to flock there? The auction house!
What drives players to visit certain areas from time to time? Professions and quests!
yes but even if it is a money sink its still taking away from player driven economy. Ship parts and ships are just being sent to you without having to interact with player stores which has an impact on crafters and traders. i wouldnt mind if it was just the stock ship but getting high grade ship parts is just too much.
@yungsofa8084 no, it would drive player based community by offering ways to obtain UEC and a means of spending it as well to balance the use of bigger ships and possibly RMT...
If you can get players to craft higher tier ships, they need to buy insurance this would add a UEC (money) sink sized with the value of the ship.
If players want to craft a ship, they need to obtain the blueprint and research it. You could gain the requirements to earn access to the blueprint you can then either buy with UEC or comes with your pledge. Then you could craft and scrap a bunch of them for experience, maybe you could upgrade specific aspects of the chassis or use different materials to augment the stats (tier) of a ship.
There are so many ways this could actually be a good thing, this is just one example of limiting wealth.
@@sjoervanderploeg4340 yea limiting wealth is great but what i care about more is player interactions and player purpose. This currently is a duping system. i take your ship and parts that were crafted by someone and then you get the same ship and parts back. Now me and you never have to interact with a trader for these parts and ships again. Then we multiply that a couple of times and you could see how this could damage the market and reduce value for parts and reduce the amount being sold. You cant say this is good in anyway you look at this thing. why are we creating more problems? let ships and parts be money sinks why do we need to make insurancee the money sinks and then let people dupe and then take away player purpose. my brain just doesnt work that way and ive worked on games before.i dont know who approved this and i wonder what the crafting and economy people think about this.
@@sjoervanderploeg4340 its not a good thing at all. you are making a system where i can take your ship and its parts and then you get them back. now everytime someone takes my ship or your ship we are removing buyers from the market while all getting these parts back if we lose them. the value for ships and ship parts are gonna drop cause people are just taking them from people with insurance. i dont understand why you and CIG create problems for no reason and then fix them with more problems. we dont need tier 2 and 3 as a money sink we need PARTS to be the money sink where actual players see the money.
Ship Insurance and ship/progression loss is what caused me to eventually drop E:D. Losing hard earned progress in games is simply poor form. If a new ship is earned in game then it shouldn't be able to be taken away (post 1.0). Real world 'backing' purchases should have no bearing on this. The cost of losing a ship should be limited to minor progress such as upgrades. Being booted back down to a start ship after many hours will drive players away.
Every IRL bought ships must be able to get back. You payd for it you keep it. If you remove that you kill the game, nobody will pay real money for the ships if you can loose it.
people will then stick to in-game ships and the game then has to get money somehow to stay online.
But with today market people will hold there money to other more important stuff then games
So I got an issue with that.
The devs have gotten half a billion dollars in funding already.
This should pay for 200 years of online presence.
Devs are spending it all in real houses and cars while we got the digital version.
@@JosefK2275 I agree with that. But that does not effect the ships.
For normal gamer like me that don’t have all day to grind and grind again due to I loose my ship to pvp players, npcs or server errors. I like to own a ship I like and have that and grind for other less important ships when I have the time
Not to mention they have ships that cost over 1000 USD. This is enough to buy almost 17 AAA games. Just imagine the uproar if Steam erased 17 AAA games from people's libraries.
And this would be the most pay2win game ever made. Imagine dying without consequences. Game would be dead day one.
@@feomec Yeah, it's pay2win, get over it. Losing ships would just make it even more pay2win, just with more money.
This is a videogame. The model will be compared to other videogames, and in every game where you buy "premium" vehicles you keep them. I feel like poeple just never played a videogame in their LIVES while discusing this project for some reason.
Battle pass for arena commander, subscription gives some bonus to certain missions or temporary rep increase for something for the month (basically PU battle pass), purchase cosmetics paints for weapons/armour/ships - but they are X number so can be lost, players can create them they get a certain uec for sales.
From day one, in the Kickstarter, It was stated that there would be NO SUBSCRIPTIONS. If they were to add
a subscription requirement, they would have legal problems, and thousands of people refunding accounts.
@@zantrag what legal problem? sounds like nonsense. They could 100% have a subscription that gives you bonuses in game for missions etc and extra access in the game.
The idea that they would be sued for it is complete nonsense. Good luck to whoever wants to.
If ship sales crashed then cig shutdown and there's no nothing for anyone. No one is getting any money back it's been spent, and if anything is given back it goes from biggest to smallest.
Biggest being the *actual* investers who put in over 17 million. I think it might be a lot more than that. They will get the money from liquidating whatever they have left.
Grind-to-win and pay-to-win are both bad. But getting an unfair advantage by grinding is what MMORPGs are all about.
They are not copy pasted. (Astrioid bases) some might be, but there are very unique ones
People who played Ultima Online think they are smarter, but I played it for two years and I'll tell you what I learned after having my moment of tears. I learned to leverage the game rules to always put me at advantage, not skill. I learned to keep my rare items in my museum and never use them. It's not the competitive beautiful gameplay people keep bragging about. Stop glorifying garbage.
The ship itself is the biggest cost in the game. I think non player commercial components should be insurable.
They could make black market or military grade components that are not insurable. Commercial ships are a different question. High quality components should be insurable on non combat ships.
Just make it so that the insurance claims require the items to actually be crafted and shipped in game in order for the claim to be filled. If a real person doesn't take up the work in a certain amount of time its given to an NPC. This woild balance the economy and allow crafters to take insurance claim tickets with in game mechanics ans reputation.
Im moving on to Dune Awakening and the Zenimax Online Star Wars mmo
Bye... We will all await your return, with breathless anticipation.
CIG must make every. single. fking. thing. overcomplicated. This gets really tiresome after so many years. It's a real money asset, it's etenal wile the game exists, cut the masturbation.
This. They need to quit thinking they can influence CIG to make the game that THEY wanna play. There are 5.3 million accounts. At least 4.5 million of those are difficult people. I don't see 4.5 million people being ok with losing everything they've busted their asses for. There needs to be a way to keep stuff permanently, or people will just not engage with the pvp side.
i get the problem about how it can effect crafting, but i don't see how someone could be pleading to lose the $$$ they spent on ships so badly.
The issue is imho that people will get reckless with their storebought stuff, or simply dont care about loosing it, making encounters meaningless. And cutlet coming from a piracy background would obviously be annoyed when the oposition just keels over and doesnt resist. And longterm the economy will break down when all people sit on billions of auec...
They just speant a ton of time making transit work for the instanced hangers, they probably dont want to reopen that sprint.
This discussions is just three guys who play for a living and have zero understanding of what the average working man or woman can do in game in a week. Who cares if we have LTI on a whale account with 20 ships when there are over 200 ships (and counting) in game? Stop pretending content will run out, or that buying ships is even the 'main' content at all. It's not. I've been playing 9 years with much less content than what is planned for 1.0. I'm sure most non TH-camrs will have years worth of content to engage with.
I 100% agree. It’s actually laughable how they say now that those who spent $$$ on ships should lose their stuff permanently… But would be the first ones crying to the community about it. I for the most part enjoy watching these but this is a bit much for them lol. CIGs new insurance/warranty feature is the best way to not make the game “PTW” but still allow those who’ve been BACKERS for years to have a safety net for what they invested in.
They don't play for a living. They make content for a living. Recording, editing, and writing scripts. At some point Mike said that he's getting burnt out making the Week in Review. Do you think Mike gets to play that much?
T2 insurance should only work in safe systems. Enter at your own risk.
Its ok to have real cash ships back with basic loadout. Giving people blueprints is rediculous idea (assuming they have to buy materials and wait days for a ship exactly like players with in game purchased vessels) it was never part of the deal.
Real cash buyers will still need to wait possibly days for bigger ship so it is ok.
Crafted weapons and components should never come from insurance, its ok if individual item are on separate individual warranty as money sink.
You have realised 14 years deep its pay for convinience pay to win game with this model? Kind of late.
Not to mention even after final release ships will blow up due to bugs... its star citizen after all.
You should be able to MOD components thru crafting to make them better, but only get the unmodded version of that component back even with the best insurance
They have yet to show any prowess balancing or even basic game design.
This fucks player economy, and sure they will adjust it, but THATS THE POINT.
They have no good ideas from day one… it’s always trash that has to be redesigned or changed. They can’t plan a game properly when they use marketing to get there.
They will drive everyone off well before tier 2 crafting
How is LTI a major advantage now ??!
It's just T1 insurance, it just means you don't have to pay an unknown ammount to get your ships on warranty back.
LTI just saves money.
We don't know how much, and we're likely still gonna have to pay insurance premiums if we loose our ships often.
LTI is slight money buff TO BE BALANCED.
It's not OP !
Stop saying it is, you have no way of knowing and CIG will balance it based on our feedback.
Pledged ships get a warranty
Non-pledged ships can get transferrable warranties of which you'll get a few.
It effectively means you have a fleet of "warranty ready" ships.
Pledged ships are always on that ready fleet.
In-game purchased ships need to be swapped in and out of that fleet before you take them out.
Transferrable warranties are "ready slots".
There's a timer to swap a ship in one of those slots, but that timer can work itself while you do something else with another ship.
Pledged ships are more convenient but not busted.
Calm down.
lets just say you buy a brand new car and as your driving it off the lot it just explodes, now the sales guy walks up and says sorry you didnt have insurance so your gonna have to buy a whole new car..... I know things are bad in America but surely even you slabs can see the problem here. In first world countries we call this kind of coverage implied warranty where a product must be fit for service and operate without malfunction in standard conditions for a reasonable amount of time which is usually 1-2 years