Batman and Robin became who they were because of the loss of a loved one while Batgirl became who she was in order to save a loved one before it was too late. Quite the interesting parallel.
Fun fact: Batgirl was slated to have her own series back in the 1960s and they even produced a pilot episode featuring Killer Moth as the main antagonist. In the end, it was cancelled. Recently, Batgirl was slated to feature in her own blockbuster film featuring Firefly as the main antagonist with Killer Moth slated to appear in a sequel. In the end, it too was cancelled. History tends to repeat itself: first as a tragedy, then as a farce.
Really hope the third time's a charm since she's more then earned a movie/TV series of her own. It's long overdue like how we're long overdue for a Catwoman movie that's actually done right this time.
@@kaijuguy19 Perhaps...not to mention the upcoming Kite Man series, which I suspect will serve as a catalyst to springboard heretofore obscure characters in the DC universe (like Killer Moth) into stardom.
...I'm actually glad they got cancelled, since there's the obvious chance that they would have been crudely made and probably done disservices to Batgirl, Firefly, and Killer Moth.
You could say that her trauma came after. What Scarecrow did to her really lasted, and the fact in the comic of Beyond showed that she saw Spellbinder AS Scarecrow was something else. Sometimes I wonder how really is the most dangerous criminal in Gotham..yeah, Joker can break your legs and laugh but Scarecrow reminds you every night of what could of been..and what might be.
It makes you glad they redesigned scarecrow doesn’t it? The btas version was a loser that was hard to take seriously. Looked like a party city halloween costume to.
Though it had a certain sense of style, there are very few designs from the goofy 1966 series that stand the test of time. But I think their Batgirl costume is a winner! On BTAS, it was thrilling the way they teased Barbara's eventual adoption of the Batgirl mantle, especially in _Heart of Steel._ I was reminded of her espionage antics recently, reading about the early adventures of real-life Liverpudlian Batgirl, Jenny Radcliffe, in her book _People Hacker._ And of course, three cheers for Wooby!
I'm surprised Batman & Mr. Freeze: Sub-Zero wasn't brought up. Anyway, I really like how Barbara didn't immediately become Batgirl, much like how Harvey Dent didn't immediately become Two-Face. It's neat seeing these famous characters as they existed _before_ adopting their alter egos.
yep, my bad! I was so focused on Batgirl that the Barbara Gordon role in Subzero slipped my mind. Didn't really add much, other than show her willingness to help people, even if they had wronged her.
I honestly prefer Barbara pre Batman Beyond because she is so full of life, love and affection. Her becoming jaded and distrustful in Batman Beyond was a great touch, but she acted way to hostile to Terry. Honestly she did more for Gotham as Batgirl than as Barbara Gordon.
@@bgvo4373 Dick jilted them both. And Barbra is Bruce's type. Fearless. She had a crush on Bruce before dating Dick. When he stops being Robin he just leaves. Breaking up with both of them. It was a distraction. While its not a healthy relationship its believable to me.
Honestly, I like Batgirl however, I just wish they'd quit sidelining her and just let her have her own movie or at least her own mini animated TV show. And yeah, she definitely is fearless.
@@Dragonite43 That's not a belief. That's a researched and verified fact. Yanno what else is a fact? Girls won't watch shows with a female main lead either. At least not superhero/action hero shows. Hell, even the last decade worth of Marvel movie flops continue to prove that this is every bit as true today as it was 50 years ago. Boys or Girls both prefer male Heroes in their Superhero/Action media. The minority who feel differently are very loud and get all the activist-journalism amplification but alas, none of that translates into asses in seats.
Funny, I'm actually one of those men who are glad to have watched the likes of Revolutionary Girl Utena, The PowerPuff Girls, and Kim Possible, among others. Beats the machismo nonsense of the Rambo sequels and Johnny Bravo. In short, people are more likely to watch women as awesome people with their own adventures and not Sex and the City caricatures or whatever.
Maybe she didn't have to be but the fact that she's willing to go that far to help people really does make her all the more heroic and selfless. Helps that she provided some much needed light and levity to her allies who have a lot of issues and baggage going for them. I wish I have someone like her in my life.
I'm surprised that even as a silver fox she saw those splicers coming and was like Weave Grab grab Kick, then as soon as the bigger one rushed in she just responded by rushing too like COME ON RAHGHHH!!!
I now picture Woobie secretly being alive Toy Story style and sneaking off at night to help Batman catch villains. A scene of the Joker trying to run away while taunting Bats, with Woobie having none of it and holding an ankle high rope around the corner to trip the clown up only to then sneak off, instantly came to mind.
I feel like there was a missed opportunity with Eyewitness since it closely resembles her Fear Toxin induced dream, with Batman being at the barrel end of the GCPD's full might. Especially since the comics showed she still suffers from and relives that dream.
When it comes to Commissioner Gordon knowing Batman's identity, it could go either way depending on the version. But in BTAS, any decent detective could figure out Batgirl's identity. What looks like Batman appears at Gordon's rally to support him, only to be revealed to be a red-haired girl. A quick look into those around Gordon would give you the answer.
In "Over the Edge" Barbara's fear toxin induced nightmare seems to imply Gordon knows Batman is Bruce Wayne, or at least Barbara thinks her father knows. When Bullock asks Gordon "What do we do now?" and Gordon says "What I should have done years ago" before he calls Bruce.
Yeah but in her dream, Gordon told Bruce that 10 minutes on Barbara's computer told him everything so he might not know Bruce Wayne was Batman, I think he was referring to that he should have had Batman arrested instead of working with him
One of the things I love about Barbara was that she never stopped fighting the good fight. She may have changed how she did it over time, but she's always been the best hero in Gotham City.
Bro, you started something I just started watching this channel and now I have to watch every single one of the videos you posted. I missed the Batman animated universe.
When I heard the part about Batman and Robin being “psychologically homosexual“I had to stop the video, sit there for a few seconds and shout “HUH?” I was utterly flabbergasted.
@@Chadius people say that but I think it deserves reflection more than repetition. Kids will repeat what they see and hear, and are very easily influenced. The main casualty of seduction of the innocent was not superhero comics but many of the other genres, especially horror comics.
Imagines if the events of "Over The Edge", weren't a nightmare, but it would truly happened. And that this was the last episode of Batman The animated series. Making me think that if the producers would made another Season of Superman The Animated series, then maybe during a episode, Superman could meets Tim again, who ended like a homeless kid, and he will reveals the Man of Steel all the events of "Over The Edge", and that now Gotham city become a complete disaster after the death of Gordon and Batman, making that Superman considers to help him in Gotham, as part of his redemption to repair his broken reputation after "Legacy". Then after some events, Superman and Tim manages to finds a Mother Box, and combines it with other machines, to allows them makes only one brief travel to past, making that Superman can appears just in time, when the Scarecrow threw Bat-girl from the roof, allowing the Man of Steel rescue her, preventing Barbara's death, and preventing the manhunt that Gordon started against Batman. And as result, when Superman returns to the present, he will finds that Tim is Robin again, and that Batman and Bat-girl are still alive. Adding that thanks to this outcome, Batman will return to the favor Superman, supporting him like Bruce Wayne, to that Superman can get back some trust of the public, and as Batman, he will get some key evidence about Lex Luthor and General Hardcastle, to discredit their propaganda, making easier to Superman his way to retrieves his public image as a hero, leading to the events of Justice League, in that Superman was admired by the people again.
@@michaelandreipalon359 It would be interesting. Perhaps after the demise of Batman and Gordon, Gotham city descended into chaos, with the criminals and villains running rampant and taking advantage that the identity of Batman was revealed, allowing many criminals and villains could be free from the jail, as result that the Police force lost a lot credibility, caused by their fallout for their previous alliance with the Bat by the former Commisioner Gordon, causing that their arrests were nulled, for accepted the help of a wanted vigilante, and leading to that Gotham ended overwhelmed and notably sunk for the crime, much like in Batman Dark Knight Rises movie. And as result of this dire situation, Tim Drake, who was distraugh for all the recent events, he will want to resume his fight against crime, but due to that Bat-family disbading, he consider assumes a new identity; Red Hood, a more serious vigilante than Robin was. And eventually, Red Hood meets Superman again, who accept to help him to re-establishes the order in Gotham city again.
Just so you know, I think it was just one guy behind Batman Beyond responsible for the implications that Batman and Batgirl had a romantic relationship. I remember hearing that one of the head showrunnners/execs really had a… _thing_ for Batgirl, and projected himself onto Batman, and even though the writers didn’t like it he kept urging them to add more scenes to the show implying Batman and Batgirl had a sexual/romantic relationship. This was made pretty clear, but I can’t remember the man’s name.
I’m pretty sure that’s an urban legend. No one I’ve talked to that worked on the show corroborated that story. If anything the Batman/Batgirl romance is a reference to the 60s show that the writers and directors grew up with.
Either way, it's shocking how, despite his memetic reputation surrounding it, Bruce Timm didn't actually do most credits on the DCAU storylines featuring Bruce x Barbara.
I really like This version of Barbara Gordon and her Story Arc in how she became Batgirl in this series. I really like her Friendship with Supergirl and their Team Up episode. But I also liked her Romance with Dick Grayson & later how they didn't work out & Dick Grayson relationship with Starfire ( I liked that live triangle from the the post Crisis era ) My intro to Babs in the comics was seeing her in Grant Morrison's JLA & During 99 in No Man's Land & Gail Simone's Birds of Prey run . But I like how DCAU Babs became commissioner in Batman Beyond I have read a little bit of New 52 Batgirl but I didn't get into this version as much as I had like the Post Crisis version. And I have been playing Arkham Knight story pack of that version of Batgirl in her early days in that universe I love Babs as much as I love Kate Kane Batwoman & Rene Montoya & Huntress I liked her more as Oracle than as Batgirl
I always really liked the idea that Commissioner Gordon knows who Batman really is, and has known for a really long time, but just keeps it a secret from everyone for the same reason he doesn't let Barbara tell him she's Batgirl.
I love that Barbara was already a good person, even before she became Batgirl. It's proof that not everybody needs to have a tragic backstory to be a hero.
Love this iteration of Barbara!❤️ Strong willed and brave, she showcases a tough gal who won't let anything stop her for will is too strong!💕 Absolutely love Tara Strongs portrayal and her further evolution into Beyond! No I'm not bothered by her romance with Bruce: let's be adults here as these things happen in real life; plus, they have been on many adventures to share concern for each other ❤
I honestly loved Barbara as Batgirl in BTAS and TNBA, she was absolutely brimming with life and personality. And while I liked her role in Batman Beyond, I kinda would've liked to see the idea of her being Oracle in the past, and maybe helping Terry with her skills in the future. Still, it was nice to see she chose to follow in her father's footsteps. Also this goes without being said for most BTAS fans, but I HATED the weird romance between Bruce and Barbara. The first time I saw signs of it was in that one episode where Barbara has a dream about Bruce kissing her or whatever it was, I immediately felt icky. Much preferred when she was dating Dick, or just not dating anyone at all.
Nice character dive review as always! Could you do one on Dr. Leslie Thompkins? Not sure if she has a big part in comics before BTAS or when she was introduced as a character
Barbara Gordon (DCAU) is an interesting character, including Batman Beyond. With the passing decades you got to see how the city broke her, or at least took parts of her. The older you get the more that you relate to that.
While Batgirl Returns is a very fun episode, it’s always felt bizzare as being the last episode, when watched in production order, of the original run. But I guess it’s better then the release order of the Lion and the Unicorn
@@SerumLake my head canon is mask of the phantasm is the series finale, even with the statements that it’s supposed to be a prequel. It’s the best big scale story to end the show off.
@@jacktoma21It can't be a prequel anyway. The Bat-Signal is used in the movie, but it's introduced in The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy episode of the show. It has to either take place during or after the show and before The New Batman Adventures.
@@RbkARI yea I’m completely against that notion but in the commentary our beloved TH-camr put together, I believe Dan Riba, said it was supposed to be a prequel to even before he met Dick
So, here's the thing: I'd argue Bruce and Barbra's relationship with each other *is* present in "The New Batman Adventures", but it's depicted by way of subtle "parallelling(?)". I haven't got all the kinks worked out, but I believe the story is this: (01.) THE ULTIMATE THRILL: So, as far as I can tell, this is where the two characters first get together. In the episode, Batman faces off against Roxy Rocket, a sexual metaphor "thrill seeker" who rides (ahem) a phallic-shaped rocket and who's physical description bears a bit of resemblance to Barbra. The idea that Bruce and Barbra are currently hooking up is implied in the scene in the bat cave where Batman is reading Rox Rocket's dossier at the computer and Batgirl states "Or she's still after the thrill. And now that she's had a taste of you, she's not going to settle for anything less." Batman responds to this statement with an odd look. (02.) BATMAN: MYSTERY OF THE BATWOMAN: This would be the first break-up (if the relationship was in fact "official") and it's worth noting that Barbra mentions that spring break is "coming up soon". Barbra calls Bruce from college and he responds by faking a bad connection and is later seen hooking up with Kathy Duquesne. (03.) MEAN SEASONS: So, this would be the first episode to feature the two, post break-up/end-of-whatever-the-hell-the-two-of-them-were-doing. Batman and Batgirl face off against Calander Girl, and aging super-model driven to villainy after being unceremoniously dropped from the industry. There is a possible parallel between Paige Monroe and Barbra, in that both feel discarded because of their age: The industry discarded Monroe because she was too old, and Batman discarded Barbra because she was too young. This is evident in a scene where Batgirl is at the computer, explaining to Batman all of the steps she is going through to find information on Paige Monroe (possibly in an attempt to impress him.) It's also worth noting that when Batman refers to Monroe as a "Pretty Girl", Barbra gets indignant saying: "Don't you mean *woman*? She was your age when she made that commercial *bat boy*. It's worth noting that Calander-Girl attacks the television up fronts (which are typically held in May) and makes mention of dinosaurs still being allowed to star in movies, which is a possible reference to the Steven Speilberg film "The Lost World: Jurassic Park" (released May 23 1997). (04.) TORCH SONG: This episode features the character of Garfield Llyns, who is driven to villainy by his post break-up infatuation with ex-girlfriend Cassidy. Llyns is the bad version of Bruce Wayne, who runs into Barbra at a club and is clearly impressed and/or crushing on Barbra as she fights crime as batgirl. (05.) COLD COMFORT: This episode is set in August of 1997, as evidenced by the date on the giant check Bruce gives to the orphanage. Bruce and Barbra are back together. This evident from this exchange during Barbra's training exercise: Batgirl: I say we call it a night. Batman: Good idea. Barbra: *smiles slightly*. (06.) GROWING PAINS: Robin tells Commissioner Gordon that he was thinking about a girl and Gordon replies "Teenagers. Glad my Barbra's past her wild years". Batman observes this statement with an odd look. (07.) DOUBLE TALK: When Batman and Batgirl are locked in a safe with a bundle of Dynomite, Batman shoves the bundle down an air vent, he then makes a point of covering Barbra protectively. (08.) LOVE IS A CROC: The final break-up. The relationship between Batman and Batigirl is parallelled between Baby-Doll and Killer Croc. Baby-Doll is clearly in love, where Croc is indifferent. It's worth noting Batgirl's frustration with Batman when she struggles to push a craps-table off of herself. Batman indifferently barks "they're getting away!" and she replies "I'm fine, thanks."
Batgirl/Barbara Gordon from TNBA and Gotham Girls will always be my favorite interpretation of her, and I had the deepest honor of meeting her voice actress Tara Strong in New Orleans months ago at a convention
@@michaelandreipalon359 I already know about that and I wish people would quit shoving that down my throat, I've been wanting to meet Tara Strong since 2013 and my wish finally came true and I would like for that controversy to quit being rubbed in my face already
barbara is in college in mystery of the bat woman despite have graduated because she went back to pursue another degree. She wants to be police commissioner and has seen first hand how much science and technology can change that line of work given how much she works with Batman, there's many degrees she could be pursuing in order to expand her skillset or knowledge in either law, forensics, science, technology, etc. etc.
Alan Moore was asked if he had any regrets in writing his stories for DC. He said he had only one: crippling Barbara Gordon for the Killing Joke. He felt at the time it was necessary for the storyline, but he called the DC editors first for their permission. He said their response shocked him. One of them said "Sure. Go ahead. Cripple the bitch". Moore was shocked at the casual dismissiveness towards Batgirl, and discovered the DC editors even had an open hostility towards strong female characters. He said he didn't expect that attitude in the field of comic books, of all places.
My favorite Barbara Gordon is Batman Beyond version of her as the second commissioner Gordon. Maybe she was "back at college" because she went back for a master's degree? It isn't unheard of for detectives and the police administration to have forensic science/law degrees above a bachelor's.
I know the Batman vs Mr.Freeze: subzero straight to dvd movie focuses mostly on mr.freeae but im a little suprised you didnt bring it up! was one of my favorite movies as a kid and she plays a prominent role there iirc! well i guess its less batgirl and more barbara but shes got a good spotlight in that film
If someone ever tell me that a hero must have personal motivations for the things they do, I'll ask them: Is it so hard to believe that someone would simply want to do some good ?
Oracle is still one of the most epic members of the Bat family and let to the comic book character that got me to be more then a watcher of DC, Cassandra Cain. Cass and Terry being the one characters I feel worthy of being the next Batman. But yeah Barbara in btas was a high light for me. I always liked when she was with the crew she brought a needed energy and I too hated how she wasn't in Batwoman. Now as for her a Bruce together. NOPE too much of a power gap. Its one of those things that while I can see why writers want to it just creeps me out and is one of the reasons I hate the Killing Joke movie.
Batgirl and her infamous 'Bat-skullet'; fashion disaster. I prefer the re-imagining of Batgirl's cowl as a hat in the Harley Quinn Show. With that style, it makes sense that her hair would be exposed. Also, her hair is much shorter in that series, which is better for crime-fighting.
We had strong female characters back in the 80's. The old anime series Bubblegum Crisis had strong female characters. Even a cute red head who was part of the A.D police.
There's also the girls in GunBuster+DieBuster, Patlabor, You're Under Arrest!, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Cardcaptor Sakura, Ojamajo Doremi, The PowerPuff Girls, Kim Possible, the Bee Train girls-with-guns trilogy, ARIA, Panty & Stocking, Kill la Kill and so on... yes, I know some examples aren't action oriented, but I do care, not empowerment storylines involve superheroes, violence, and world crises. Also, would substitute the woefully incomplete Bubblegum Crisis with Dirty Pair instead.
It's always a bit confusing to me that The Killing Joke is considered a non-canon story, and yet the byproduct of it (Barbara's accident) had to be be canonized for her to become Oracle. Anyway, I absolutely love how BTAS incorporated Batgirl, similarly to Two-Face, by slowly setting her up first. And I always thought Barbara using her powder makeup to reveal the code on the key pad, was the coolest piece of detective work from any character, in the series. Batman included. (It's also a nice example of how femininity can be used in creative ways, and shouldn't be something writers run away from). She wasn't on the show alot, but they make the most of it when she is. As for the New Batman adventures, not much to say there, except I liked her redesign.
@@michaelandreipalon359If you’re talking about Tara Strong for the latter… you do know that she’s Jewish, right? It’s not fucking Islamophobia for her to side with her people when they come under attack. She didn’t even say anything beyond “Hamas can go and get fucked”
What she really didn't need to be was Batman's love interest. Honestly the fact that the New Adventures pushed their romance so hard has forever soured that season for me. EDIT: Okay in retrospect I suppose TNBA was never explicit about it as Batman Beyond, mystery of the batwoman, or the comic spin off of that specific season, but I do remember some moments where they implied some flirting and again that was the “era” when it was first pushed.
@@jaohonaxa It honestly didn't. It was Batman Beyond and Mystery of the Batwoman that did that. And even then they just have it as something that happens in the past and is never shown.
I know there's already a lot in here, but… no mention of Barbara in _Sub-zero?_ She had a pretty big role in that - not as Batgirl, but as herself. It was weird, but cool.
*(sees title)* Sure seems contentious at first glance. Granted, it reminds me of my fervent opinion that the offscreen DCAU Hal Jordan should NEVER become a Green Lantern; instead, he must stay a bad**s Muggle ace fighter pilot, who was so in love with his job that Carol Ferris ended up becoming Star Sapphire. 0:50: Meanwhile, novels like The Lord of the Rings got away with it via men openly crying and relationships like Frodo and Samwise's. 1:32: Cute, she's wearing Leia Organa's hairstyle in A New Hope. 2:27: A tale that should have been adapted for The Killing Joke movie and thus replaced the original infamous stuff that started the film, according to some fans. 2:50: Oh, good, you didn't show off that sneaky nipple shot of the poor lass. 3:42: Basically the premise of the original concept for Justice League Unlimited's Double Date. However, I can easily argue that the Gail Simone concept featuring Green Arrow x Black Canary vs. Huntress x the Question vs. the Mandragoras plotline we got by way of the Bat-Embargo is the better story. 4:15: Sounds like Itsuki Myoudouin/Cure Sunshine from HeartCatch PreCure and Corran Horn from the Star Wars Legends novels. Also, The Batman 2004's Batgirl iteration's path from being just a wannabe vigilante to the Bats' very first apprentice... now that was quite an original take on the character's dynamic origins. 4:54: This moment got deja vu'd in Gotham Girls, alongside the Commish being replaced by a robot. 5:19 reminds me of the use of thermal goggles in Splinter Cell. 5:25: I don't care. In my opinion, had she not been around, then the world would be quite unfortunate since Batman wasn't around to stop, hmm, the Imperium or the Thanagarians... "For Want of A Nail", people! The Batman Adventures issue 12 is a really good story, don't get me wrong, but its canonicity can be partially contested. For one, there seem to be folks wearing Wonder Woman costumes (though this may be chalked up on JL's "The Savage Time" chrono shenanigans); two, the story somehow is set during the interim of S1E56 - "Harley and Ivy" all the while Harley looks curiously different, and; three, Catwoman is strangely doing unmonitored crime pre-Catwalk (S2E9) and is uncharacteristically leading henchmen, which she isn't known to do in the DCAU. In my opinion, the first half should stay true canon, while the second half should take liberties, and thus should be a semi-canon prequel to "Shadow of the Bat" (S1E57-58). 6:57: If anyone wants catharsis on Barbara's vulnerability here, there's Batman: The Adventures Continue Season 2, where she kicks serious butt against Jazzman, with some Huntress spotlight. 7:06: Jazzman's hand should be bloody and mangled in reality. Fitting how Rupert Thorne was Two-Face's mob target, considering their memorable history. If it were me, I would gladly make Gil Mason be staying a good guy in a different DC universe iteration that I may make, even if means making him an undercover cop who seems like a loyal mook to a hated crime lord. Getting tired of the "oh, look, the new good guy character from out of nowhere is the villain all along" trope. 7:52: Doing a Matches Malone op, to be exact. I actually like the "Batgirl Returns" title. Reminds me of when Mr. Freeze said *"the Dark Knight returns"* in The Batman 2004's distant future ep "Artifacts". And speaking of, interesting how that ep, and by extension the SubZero movie (which is not alluded to in this video, hmm), are the series finale for B: TAS. As an argument, the lack of TNBA Batgirl-centered eps is because she already has a sizable amount of spotlight moments in a lot of the episodes. Reminds me of how Starfire went through in Teen Titans despite her lack of a spotlight season (which may have been a Season 6, though there's the Teen Titans Go tie-in comics... no, not to be confused with that trashy show). 11:17: Dunno, a select number of folks can attend a different college that fits their criteria even after finishing some other college that didn't have the courses they really preferred. Who knows, perhaps she was attending a police academy, which explains why she became the prodigious GCPD Commissioner in Batman Beyond; man, would love to see this awesome retcon be fleshed out. Anyways, if there's a lore detail that makes me foam in the mouth a bit, there's the mention of Mr. Freeze still on jail after the events of "Cold Comfort"... does this mean Gotham Girls is actually a Gotham Adventures interquel before the events of issue 51, where Freeze escapes to the Arctic up till Batman Adventures 2003 issue 16? Ehh, Montoya didn't do much in Gotham Girls (though there's those tie-in comics). Also, where's good old Zatanna? Hmm, why not Barbara Gordon-Young or Barbara Young-Gordon? I have a soft spot for mixed family names, like the theoretical Luz and Amity Blight-Noceda. 12:30: Nowadays deemed as anachronistic artistic liberties. The flashbacks most likely happened a few years after Justice League Unlimited (and maybe shortly after the dramatic JL Infinity tie-in comics), in what may be the year 2007. On a sidenote, Barbara, on Bruce's final Batman years, did become Oracle in the Legacies of the DCAU fan webcomics. I really wonder if her husband Sam, like her father James, figured that their awesome, brave, and kind wife was the Batgirl of yore, and yet didn't mention it because, well, it's inconvenient if said openly. Batman Beyond Vol. II issue 13 can easily fit canon, that I can let slide. Batman Beyond 2.0 is Elseworlds, but even I admit that some details, like Nightwing becoming scarred and grizzled and Terry being involved with the Justice Lords universe, should be DCAU canon. Not the poor Barbara has Bruce's child and then miscarriages bit though; but, I shall keep their past relationship if I had my way with the DCAU because it's already written canon no matter what. Shame you didn't talk about her best friend chemistry with Supergirl (and how J's Reviews is oh so wrong about his views on "Girl's Night Out). Would even call that Barbara not being alluded to in Kara's last appearance, JLU's "Far From Home", just feels criminal. Livewire has quite a fascinating history. She actually first appeared in the Superman Adventures tie-in comic for some reason, all while she became a budding heroine in what is now unfortunately deemed an Elseworlds arc (curses, Justice League's "Hereafter" and Justice League Unlimited Season 3). *(Apologies if I'm continuity-centric on this video.)*
That is a good question. I'd imagine Bruce got Tim into some exclusive and expensive programs to rehabilite him and kept his distance throughout most of it. Or Alfred effectively raised Tim. But who's to say.
So aside from the 2.0 BB comics having the most blatant interpretation of a sexual relationship between Babs and Bruce, what do the implications from the show mean then? That is are they suggesting a sexual relationship or just some kind of romance? Barbra seemed to fantasize about being on a grand adventure full of danger and love in her day dreams in Batgirl Returns, and the her suggestive implications in the actual BB cartoon over coffee with Terry.
Given the fact that Barbara makes sexual advances towards Batman over the phone in Mystery of the Batwoman, and it makes him uncomfortable, I assumed it was more of an emotional relationship than a sexual one. Regardless, it all would’ve come to an end following the flashback scene in Return of the Joker, that was the point that he pushed everyone away.
I remember hearing that one of the head showrunnners/execs really had a… _thing_ for Batgirl, and projected himself onto Batman, and even though the writers didn’t like it he kept urging them to add more scenes to the show implying Batman and Batgirl had a sexual/romantic relationship. This was made pretty clear, but I can’t remember the man’s name.
Tbh, I reckon Babs would have gone into Law Enforcement anyway. We never know what she studied at college so,for all we know,it could have been Uniformed Services, like how my college did
In the Batwoman movie, did they say what degree she was going for? Considering her intelligence in the comics, it would make sense for her to have gone back for either an advanced degree or a second bachelor's
As much as I hate to be the "um, Actually-" person...I think it is worth pointing out that the picture of Bruce and "Barbara" at 15:33 ISN'T actually Barbara Gordon: It's Andrea Beaumont from The Mask of the Phantasm, who is redesigned in TNBA style. I found this out VERY late, but someone pointed this out once. and if you compare the picture with TNBA Barbara Gordon, you can see minor differences (but the artists REALLY should've tried harder, as she looks too much like Barbara that it is no wonder so many have made this mistake. Even *I* thought it was Barbara.)
@SerumLake Agree to disagree, then (I like your content, and don't want to start a senseless argument.) Frankly, I prefer it to be Andrea in my headcanon. The whole Bruce x Barbara ship is rather cringy in retrospect. It's fine if Barbara had a crush on Bruce (can't really blame her), but Bruce SHOULDN'T be attracted to someone Dick Grayson's age.
I personally heavily prefer Batgirl from Matsudaverse, but in DCAU continuity she is, in fact, a model Bat, a Bat Bruce ought to strive to become. Appreciating people around, not clinging to past like it's still here. Instead, she is kind of sidelined.
i dont think anyone who has ever taken acid has had a flashback trip. its really old myth from like the 70s or something. norm macdonald even does a joke about, saying its the most economical drug ever if that were true. two trips for the price of one.
In BTAS Barbara actually became Batgirl because her father was set up by the new corrupt DA. Gordon was accused of taking Bribes and was in jail. She asked Batman to make an appearance to raise moral. But Batman refused so she dressed like him and pretended to be him. Later taking on the mantle of Batgirl to save her father's reputation
You know I was under the impression that this Batgirl was a thrill seeking promiscuous idiot and then in the Beyond era she just a bitter lover especially since she was threatening to arrest Bruce and Terry just for trying to protect her husband from a killer like that tie in comic to made some sense as to why she was bitter towards Bruce and that Terry was a underage offender which I don’t know would have taken his word when he trying to give the evidence on Derek Powers from the start? As I said before about when Professor Hamilton compared Superman to the Devil just because he grabbed him by the neck while I guess that Dick would compare Bruce to the Devil for sabotaging and ruined his relationship. I always wondered why they didn’t use Killer Moth when she was starting to be Batgirl but instead they use Two Face and Gil Mason? 12:49 speaking of would be the Canon to Batman as the canon that Miguel talks about in Across the spider Verse?
A lot of post-DCAU stuff is worth lots of analysation. Just look at Teen Titans Robin, who may actually be the very same Robin as The Batman 2004, and with the fact that 2004's Batgirl was the one who first suggested creating a superteam of superteens...
Doesn't matter that the comics featuring Babs getting pregnant don't count, Batman started having sexual relationship with his best friend's daughter-a daughter he at least would've been in the orbit of since she was the age Dick Grayson was when Batman adopted a little boy. Then, the relationship happened after she, fresh out of college, was trained as a sidekick and worked with him for years. If that isn't grooming, it still belongs being discussed in the same paragraph. I'm … not a fan of this relationship. But I don't think this was ever intended to be a case of grooming, and I don't think it was in any intentional sort of way. It wasn't what he intended, but it eventually was what happened. As for Mystery of the Batwoman … I went back to university a bit after I graduated to get an advanced degree. So her being there for Mystery of the Batwoman isn't the continuity problem it sounds like for me.
let's be thankful for barbara gordon that DIDN'T had sex with batman next to dead bodies i don't believe bruce looks through pictures of his old loves specifically in that episode
My main issue with Barbara in Batman Beyond is that she contiues to be a little hostile towards Terry. Like I understand her not trusting him when he first became Batman, but it became annoying throughout the show.
No it doesn't. Like first actually reading those comics they just blatantly do not fit in canon with things they reference. But beyond that Barbara talks about the relationship, smiling and saying how it's a shame it ended. If she lost a child and ruined Dick's life she's not going to be happy about it.
@@michaelandreipalon359 No...why would they be? It's out of character for everyone, it does nothing but traumatize 2 characters that do not need it, and adds nothing of value.
@@michaelandreipalon359 Maybe but it would make sense if that happened after she gave up being Batgirl, which didn't happen until after the flashback sequence from "Return of the Joker" which happens after "Mystery of the Batwoman" Off topic tangent: I just realized how close the name "Return of the Joker" is to "Return of the Jedi" and both star Mark Hamill as the one who returns.🤯
![[#2024MAMA] G-DRAGON - 무제(Untitled, 2014)+POWER+HOME SWEET HOME+뱅뱅뱅+FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ox29z5Nf1Uk/mqdefault.jpg)
Maybe emotionally she didn't need to be Batgirl, but everyone is glad that she became Batgirl in her life.
Fr
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Batman and Robin became who they were because of the loss of a loved one while Batgirl became who she was in order to save a loved one before it was too late. Quite the interesting parallel.
Fun fact: Batgirl was slated to have her own series back in the 1960s and they even produced a pilot episode featuring Killer Moth as the main antagonist. In the end, it was cancelled.
Recently, Batgirl was slated to feature in her own blockbuster film featuring Firefly as the main antagonist with Killer Moth slated to appear in a sequel. In the end, it too was cancelled.
History tends to repeat itself: first as a tragedy, then as a farce.
Is always funny the closest to a main arch Barbara has is killer moth, like her always constant
@@KnucklesxReala911 Some continuities have made him a love interest for her but I have no idea where the inspiration for that comes from.
Really hope the third time's a charm since she's more then earned a movie/TV series of her own. It's long overdue like how we're long overdue for a Catwoman movie that's actually done right this time.
@@kaijuguy19 Perhaps...not to mention the upcoming Kite Man series, which I suspect will serve as a catalyst to springboard heretofore obscure characters in the DC universe (like Killer Moth) into stardom.
...I'm actually glad they got cancelled, since there's the obvious chance that they would have been crudely made and probably done disservices to Batgirl, Firefly, and Killer Moth.
You could say that her trauma came after. What Scarecrow did to her really lasted, and the fact in the comic of Beyond showed that she saw Spellbinder AS Scarecrow was something else. Sometimes I wonder how really is the most dangerous criminal in Gotham..yeah, Joker can break your legs and laugh but Scarecrow reminds you every night of what could of been..and what might be.
It makes you glad they redesigned scarecrow doesn’t it? The btas version was a loser that was hard to take seriously. Looked like a party city halloween costume to.
@@JaelinBezel I loved his look AND voice in the New Batman Adventures. Jeffery Combs was so damn good.
Riderler is terrifying when he lets go
Though it had a certain sense of style, there are very few designs from the goofy 1966 series that stand the test of time. But I think their Batgirl costume is a winner! On BTAS, it was thrilling the way they teased Barbara's eventual adoption of the Batgirl mantle, especially in _Heart of Steel._ I was reminded of her espionage antics recently, reading about the early adventures of real-life Liverpudlian Batgirl, Jenny Radcliffe, in her book _People Hacker._ And of course, three cheers for Wooby!
I prefer her black one
I'm surprised Batman & Mr. Freeze: Sub-Zero wasn't brought up.
Anyway, I really like how Barbara didn't immediately become Batgirl, much like how Harvey Dent didn't immediately become Two-Face. It's neat seeing these famous characters as they existed _before_ adopting their alter egos.
yep, my bad! I was so focused on Batgirl that the Barbara Gordon role in Subzero slipped my mind. Didn't really add much, other than show her willingness to help people, even if they had wronged her.
Yeah, even I was surprised.
I honestly prefer Barbara pre Batman Beyond because she is so full of life, love and affection.
Her becoming jaded and distrustful in Batman Beyond was a great touch, but she acted way to hostile to Terry. Honestly she did more for Gotham as Batgirl than as Barbara Gordon.
I also hate Barbara possibly being Bruce’s ex after dating Dick! Her husband is also kinda flat.
@@bgvo4373 I actually like Sam, he has to keep his cool dealing with Barbara and being the DA of Gotham.
Yeah I hate how she got with Bruce.
@@bgvo4373 Dick jilted them both. And Barbra is Bruce's type. Fearless. She had a crush on Bruce before dating Dick. When he stops being Robin he just leaves. Breaking up with both of them. It was a distraction. While its not a healthy relationship its believable to me.
@@TheYetixOUTxi don't think it's believable to me that bruce got into a relationship with his sons ex
Well yanno, cheating on your on-again/off-again boyfriend with his dad, then miscarrying the baby will have that effect on a girl.
Honestly, I like Batgirl however, I just wish they'd quit sidelining her and just let her have her own movie or at least her own mini animated TV show.
And yeah, she definitely is fearless.
l agree. Sadly, a big problem with executives have, is the belief that boys wouldn't watch a tv show with a female main lead. :/
Well, the closest to a Batgirl mini-series we can get is the Gotham Girls web series
@@Dragonite43 That's not a belief. That's a researched and verified fact. Yanno what else is a fact? Girls won't watch shows with a female main lead either. At least not superhero/action hero shows.
Hell, even the last decade worth of Marvel movie flops continue to prove that this is every bit as true today as it was 50 years ago. Boys or Girls both prefer male Heroes in their Superhero/Action media. The minority who feel differently are very loud and get all the activist-journalism amplification but alas, none of that translates into asses in seats.
Funny, I'm actually one of those men who are glad to have watched the likes of Revolutionary Girl Utena, The PowerPuff Girls, and Kim Possible, among others. Beats the machismo nonsense of the Rambo sequels and Johnny Bravo.
In short, people are more likely to watch women as awesome people with their own adventures and not Sex and the City caricatures or whatever.
@@michaelandreipalon359You quite honestly picked two awful examples of male heroes. I get what you were going for but Johnny Bravo? Seriously?
i love how they introduce barbra slowly. Its something most cartoons cant get a handle on
Maybe she didn't have to be but the fact that she's willing to go that far to help people really does make her all the more heroic and selfless. Helps that she provided some much needed light and levity to her allies who have a lot of issues and baggage going for them. I wish I have someone like her in my life.
9:25 I love how whenever Serum Lake mentions WB executives, there's always a clip of Mockridge, Daggett, etc. ;)
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What, no Derek, a la Watchtower Database's Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker censorship vid?
I'm surprised that even as a silver fox she saw those splicers coming and was like Weave Grab grab Kick, then as soon as the bigger one rushed in she just responded by rushing too like COME ON RAHGHHH!!!
My god that episode. Kid me really thought Batgirl died, it was insane
I now picture Woobie secretly being alive Toy Story style and sneaking off at night to help Batman catch villains. A scene of the Joker trying to run away while taunting Bats, with Woobie having none of it and holding an ankle high rope around the corner to trip the clown up only to then sneak off, instantly came to mind.
...Seems too corny.
@@michaelandreipalon359hey, it's DC universe, I have seen something weirder
@@ngrjordi2352 Well, yeah, I've seen and loved Batman: The Brave and the Bold, but even then, I don't see the sheer quality of this concept.
@@michaelandreipalon359 I also think it's corny. But it's also silly, and for a random funny thought that's good enough reason to do it.
I love this idea!
11:08 One of favorite moments for the Gordons. I always imagined Jim knows, and is turning a blind eye towards the Batfamily's identity.
I feel like there was a missed opportunity with Eyewitness since it closely resembles her Fear Toxin induced dream, with Batman being at the barrel end of the GCPD's full might. Especially since the comics showed she still suffers from and relives that dream.
When it comes to Commissioner Gordon knowing Batman's identity, it could go either way depending on the version. But in BTAS, any decent detective could figure out Batgirl's identity. What looks like Batman appears at Gordon's rally to support him, only to be revealed to be a red-haired girl. A quick look into those around Gordon would give you the answer.
Patiently waiting on an episode focusing on Woobi the Teddy 🧸
It's truly the greatest arck in the entire DCAU.
In "Over the Edge" Barbara's fear toxin induced nightmare seems to imply Gordon knows Batman is Bruce Wayne, or at least Barbara thinks her father knows. When Bullock asks Gordon "What do we do now?" and Gordon says "What I should have done years ago" before he calls Bruce.
Yeah but in her dream, Gordon told Bruce that 10 minutes on Barbara's computer told him everything so he might not know Bruce Wayne was Batman, I think he was referring to that he should have had Batman arrested instead of working with him
Bless Woobie, helping Commissioner Gordon with directions when driving
I had the biggest crush on the TNBA Batgirl/Barbara when I was a kid lol
It's that black lipstick.
One of the things I love about Barbara was that she never stopped fighting the good fight. She may have changed how she did it over time, but she's always been the best hero in Gotham City.
Bro, you started something I just started watching this channel and now I have to watch every single one of the videos you posted. I missed the Batman animated universe.
When I heard the part about Batman and Robin being “psychologically homosexual“I had to stop the video, sit there for a few seconds and shout “HUH?” I was utterly flabbergasted.
The Cold War was quite a sexuality conflicted time.
@@wilsonkerkhoff7556 Seduction of the Innocent wrecked the comic industry in general.
@@Chadius people say that but I think it deserves reflection more than repetition. Kids will repeat what they see and hear, and are very easily influenced. The main casualty of seduction of the innocent was not superhero comics but many of the other genres, especially horror comics.
@@benabaxterwhat do you mean by seduction of the innocent
1:42 Maybe that's where Bruce Timm got that wild idea of pairing Batman and Batgirl up...
Imagines if the events of "Over The Edge", weren't a nightmare, but it would truly happened. And that this was the last episode of Batman The animated series.
Making me think that if the producers would made another Season of Superman The Animated series, then maybe during a episode, Superman could meets Tim again, who ended like a homeless kid, and he will reveals the Man of Steel all the events of "Over The Edge", and that now Gotham city become a complete disaster after the death of Gordon and Batman, making that Superman considers to help him in Gotham, as part of his redemption to repair his broken reputation after "Legacy".
Then after some events, Superman and Tim manages to finds a Mother Box, and combines it with other machines, to allows them makes only one brief travel to past, making that Superman can appears just in time, when the Scarecrow threw Bat-girl from the roof, allowing the Man of Steel rescue her, preventing Barbara's death, and preventing the manhunt that Gordon started against Batman.
And as result, when Superman returns to the present, he will finds that Tim is Robin again, and that Batman and Bat-girl are still alive. Adding that thanks to this outcome, Batman will return to the favor Superman, supporting him like Bruce Wayne, to that Superman can get back some trust of the public, and as Batman, he will get some key evidence about Lex Luthor and General Hardcastle, to discredit their propaganda, making easier to Superman his way to retrieves his public image as a hero, leading to the events of Justice League, in that Superman was admired by the people again.
In my opinion, there IS an alternate universe where the episode did happen.
However, I'd rather Tim Drake become the Red Hood. Feels right too.
@@michaelandreipalon359 It would be interesting.
Perhaps after the demise of Batman and Gordon, Gotham city descended into chaos, with the criminals and villains running rampant and taking advantage that the identity of Batman was revealed, allowing many criminals and villains could be free from the jail, as result that the Police force lost a lot credibility, caused by their fallout for their previous alliance with the Bat by the former Commisioner Gordon, causing that their arrests were nulled, for accepted the help of a wanted vigilante, and leading to that Gotham ended overwhelmed and notably sunk for the crime, much like in Batman Dark Knight Rises movie.
And as result of this dire situation, Tim Drake, who was distraugh for all the recent events, he will want to resume his fight against crime, but due to that Bat-family disbading, he consider assumes a new identity; Red Hood, a more serious vigilante than Robin was.
And eventually, Red Hood meets Superman again, who accept to help him to re-establishes the order in Gotham city again.
Just so you know, I think it was just one guy behind Batman Beyond responsible for the implications that Batman and Batgirl had a romantic relationship. I remember hearing that one of the head showrunnners/execs really had a… _thing_ for Batgirl, and projected himself onto Batman, and even though the writers didn’t like it he kept urging them to add more scenes to the show implying Batman and Batgirl had a sexual/romantic relationship. This was made pretty clear, but I can’t remember the man’s name.
I’m pretty sure that’s an urban legend. No one I’ve talked to that worked on the show corroborated that story. If anything the Batman/Batgirl romance is a reference to the 60s show that the writers and directors grew up with.
Either way, it's shocking how, despite his memetic reputation surrounding it, Bruce Timm didn't actually do most credits on the DCAU storylines featuring Bruce x Barbara.
Maybe Barbara went back to college to get her Master's Degree?
And who knows, "college" may actually be a well graded police academy.
I always assumed she had just gone back for a masters, Barbara always seemed like the kind of person who'd push herself to 110% everything.
I really like This version of Barbara Gordon and her Story Arc in how she became Batgirl in this series. I really like her Friendship with Supergirl and their Team Up episode.
But I also liked her Romance with Dick Grayson & later how they didn't work out & Dick Grayson relationship with Starfire ( I liked that live triangle from the the post Crisis era )
My intro to Babs in the comics was seeing her in Grant Morrison's JLA & During 99 in No Man's Land & Gail Simone's Birds of Prey run .
But I like how DCAU Babs became commissioner in Batman Beyond
I have read a little bit of New 52 Batgirl but I didn't get into this version as much as I had like the Post Crisis version.
And I have been playing Arkham Knight story pack of that version of Batgirl in her early days in that universe
I love Babs as much as I love Kate Kane Batwoman & Rene Montoya & Huntress
I liked her more as Oracle than as Batgirl
I always really liked the idea that Commissioner Gordon knows who Batman really is, and has known for a really long time, but just keeps it a secret from everyone for the same reason he doesn't let Barbara tell him she's Batgirl.
I love your outro so much it never fails to makes me smile.
I love that Barbara was already a good person, even before she became Batgirl. It's proof that not everybody needs to have a tragic backstory to be a hero.
Love this iteration of Barbara!❤️ Strong willed and brave, she showcases a tough gal who won't let anything stop her for will is too strong!💕 Absolutely love Tara Strongs portrayal and her further evolution into Beyond! No I'm not bothered by her romance with Bruce: let's be adults here as these things happen in real life; plus, they have been on many adventures to share concern for each other ❤
It was either the Timmverse version or Yvonne Craig who taught me that I liked girls before I knew how to read.
I honestly loved Barbara as Batgirl in BTAS and TNBA, she was absolutely brimming with life and personality. And while I liked her role in Batman Beyond, I kinda would've liked to see the idea of her being Oracle in the past, and maybe helping Terry with her skills in the future. Still, it was nice to see she chose to follow in her father's footsteps.
Also this goes without being said for most BTAS fans, but I HATED the weird romance between Bruce and Barbara. The first time I saw signs of it was in that one episode where Barbara has a dream about Bruce kissing her or whatever it was, I immediately felt icky. Much preferred when she was dating Dick, or just not dating anyone at all.
...and in the movie Batman: Bad Blood we get to see her in the last scene, swinging away to join the entire Bat family. I love that...
Nice character dive review as always! Could you do one on Dr. Leslie Thompkins? Not sure if she has a big part in comics before BTAS or when she was introduced as a character
Underappreciated characters getting videos? Now that's something I'm easily sold on!
Barbara Gordon (DCAU) is an interesting character, including Batman Beyond. With the passing decades you got to see how the city broke her, or at least took parts of her. The older you get the more that you relate to that.
While Batgirl Returns is a very fun episode, it’s always felt bizzare as being the last episode, when watched in production order, of the original run. But I guess it’s better then the release order of the Lion and the Unicorn
Oh yeah, 100% agree. Trial would've made a better last episode, I think.
@@SerumLake my head canon is mask of the phantasm is the series finale, even with the statements that it’s supposed to be a prequel. It’s the best big scale story to end the show off.
@@jacktoma21It's really awesome to think that it works really well both as an introduction to the show, and then as a great finale.
@@jacktoma21It can't be a prequel anyway. The Bat-Signal is used in the movie, but it's introduced in The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy episode of the show. It has to either take place during or after the show and before The New Batman Adventures.
@@RbkARI yea I’m completely against that notion but in the commentary our beloved TH-camr put together, I believe Dan Riba, said it was supposed to be a prequel to even before he met Dick
So, here's the thing: I'd argue Bruce and Barbra's relationship with each other *is* present in "The New Batman Adventures", but it's depicted by way of subtle "parallelling(?)". I haven't got all the kinks worked out, but I believe the story is this:
(01.) THE ULTIMATE THRILL: So, as far as I can tell, this is where the two characters first get together. In the episode, Batman faces off against Roxy Rocket, a sexual metaphor "thrill seeker" who rides (ahem) a phallic-shaped rocket and who's physical description bears a bit of resemblance to Barbra. The idea that Bruce and Barbra are currently hooking up is implied in the scene in the bat cave where Batman is reading Rox Rocket's dossier at the computer and Batgirl states "Or she's still after the thrill. And now that she's had a taste of you, she's not going to settle for anything less." Batman responds to this statement with an odd look.
(02.) BATMAN: MYSTERY OF THE BATWOMAN: This would be the first break-up (if the relationship was in fact "official") and it's worth noting that Barbra mentions that spring break is "coming up soon". Barbra calls Bruce from college and he responds by faking a bad connection and is later seen hooking up with Kathy Duquesne.
(03.) MEAN SEASONS: So, this would be the first episode to feature the two, post break-up/end-of-whatever-the-hell-the-two-of-them-were-doing. Batman and Batgirl face off against Calander Girl, and aging super-model driven to villainy after being unceremoniously dropped from the industry. There is a possible parallel between Paige Monroe and Barbra, in that both feel discarded because of their age: The industry discarded Monroe because she was too old, and Batman discarded Barbra because she was too young.
This is evident in a scene where Batgirl is at the computer, explaining to Batman all of the steps she is going through to find information on Paige Monroe (possibly in an attempt to impress him.) It's also worth noting that when Batman refers to Monroe as a "Pretty Girl", Barbra gets indignant saying: "Don't you mean *woman*? She was your age when she made that commercial *bat boy*. It's worth noting that Calander-Girl attacks the television up fronts (which are typically held in May) and makes mention of dinosaurs still being allowed to star in movies, which is a possible reference to the Steven Speilberg film "The Lost World: Jurassic Park" (released May 23 1997).
(04.) TORCH SONG: This episode features the character of Garfield Llyns, who is driven to villainy by his post break-up infatuation with ex-girlfriend Cassidy. Llyns is the bad version of Bruce Wayne, who runs into Barbra at a club and is clearly impressed and/or crushing on Barbra as she fights crime as batgirl.
(05.) COLD COMFORT: This episode is set in August of 1997, as evidenced by the date on the giant check Bruce gives to the orphanage. Bruce and Barbra are back together. This evident from this exchange during Barbra's training exercise: Batgirl: I say we call it a night. Batman: Good idea. Barbra: *smiles slightly*.
(06.) GROWING PAINS: Robin tells Commissioner Gordon that he was thinking about a girl and Gordon replies "Teenagers. Glad my Barbra's past her wild years". Batman observes this statement with an odd look.
(07.) DOUBLE TALK: When Batman and Batgirl are locked in a safe with a bundle of Dynomite, Batman shoves the bundle down an air vent, he then makes a point of covering Barbra protectively.
(08.) LOVE IS A CROC: The final break-up. The relationship between Batman and Batigirl is parallelled between Baby-Doll and Killer Croc. Baby-Doll is clearly in love, where Croc is indifferent. It's worth noting Batgirl's frustration with Batman when she struggles to push a craps-table off of herself. Batman indifferently barks "they're getting away!" and she replies "I'm fine, thanks."
Batgirl/Barbara Gordon from TNBA and Gotham Girls will always be my favorite interpretation of her, and I had the deepest honor of meeting her voice actress Tara Strong in New Orleans months ago at a convention
Now it feels like a blight worth washing my hands with nowadays... you know what I mean?
@@michaelandreipalon359 No, I don't know what you mean
@@FanaticMitchell1 Look up her viewpoints on the Israeli-Hamas conflict, and despair.
@@michaelandreipalon359 I already know about that and I wish people would quit shoving that down my throat, I've been wanting to meet Tara Strong since 2013 and my wish finally came true and I would like for that controversy to quit being rubbed in my face already
I love barbra gordon! she's a great character with a good heart, the true core of a hero!
I never noticed how Bullock's robot disintegration bot alluded to Terminator body horror while staying kid-friendly
Randa Duane is crushed by the elevator the same way the Terminator was crushed under a hydraulic press in the first movie.
I'll never understand how the brutality against robots and nonhumans are allowed in such fiction.
barbara is in college in mystery of the bat woman despite have graduated because she went back to pursue another degree. She wants to be police commissioner and has seen first hand how much science and technology can change that line of work given how much she works with Batman, there's many degrees she could be pursuing in order to expand her skillset or knowledge in either law, forensics, science, technology, etc. etc.
Thanks for the video.
Alan Moore was asked if he had any regrets in writing his stories for DC. He said he had only one: crippling Barbara Gordon for the Killing Joke. He felt at the time it was necessary for the storyline, but he called the DC editors first for their permission. He said their response shocked him. One of them said "Sure. Go ahead. Cripple the bitch". Moore was shocked at the casual dismissiveness towards Batgirl, and discovered the DC editors even had an open hostility towards strong female characters. He said he didn't expect that attitude in the field of comic books, of all places.
12:34 ...never noticed the Cheetah and Black Canary references in Return of the Joker!!!
Helps that the blondie's look got neatly recycled for the actual Black Canary come JLU.
Easter Egg to what they had in the oven?
My favorite Barbara Gordon is Batman Beyond version of her as the second commissioner Gordon.
Maybe she was "back at college" because she went back for a master's degree? It isn't unheard of for detectives and the police administration to have forensic science/law degrees above a bachelor's.
I know the Batman vs Mr.Freeze: subzero straight to dvd movie focuses mostly on mr.freeae but im a little suprised you didnt bring it up! was one of my favorite movies as a kid and she plays a prominent role there iirc! well i guess its less batgirl and more barbara but shes got a good spotlight in that film
If someone ever tell me that a hero must have personal motivations for the things they do, I'll ask them: Is it so hard to believe that someone would simply want to do some good ?
If anyone had an adult relation with barbara, it would have been robin.
Not bruce.
Bruce would just have been the supportive dad figure.
Oracle is still one of the most epic members of the Bat family and let to the comic book character that got me to be more then a watcher of DC, Cassandra Cain. Cass and Terry being the one characters I feel worthy of being the next Batman. But yeah Barbara in btas was a high light for me. I always liked when she was with the crew she brought a needed energy and I too hated how she wasn't in Batwoman. Now as for her a Bruce together. NOPE too much of a power gap. Its one of those things that while I can see why writers want to it just creeps me out and is one of the reasons I hate the Killing Joke movie.
Remember, sir. It's Bill Finger AND Bob Kane.
Or just Bill Finger, if one is that vindictive of Kane.
Batgirl and her infamous 'Bat-skullet'; fashion disaster.
I prefer the re-imagining of Batgirl's cowl as a hat in the Harley Quinn Show. With that style, it makes sense that her hair would be exposed. Also, her hair is much shorter in that series, which is better for crime-fighting.
Oh, if Barbara told Terry's family that he is Batman. With Spellbinder hearing it...
Terry's mom and brother would probably laugh just like they did the one time Terry tried to tell them.
Spellbinder would be an issue, though...
People say there werent no strong female characters until recently.
But then theres people like Barbara Gorden....
We had strong female characters back in the 80's. The old anime series Bubblegum Crisis had strong female characters. Even a cute red head who was part of the A.D police.
There's also the girls in GunBuster+DieBuster, Patlabor, You're Under Arrest!, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Cardcaptor Sakura, Ojamajo Doremi, The PowerPuff Girls, Kim Possible, the Bee Train girls-with-guns trilogy, ARIA, Panty & Stocking, Kill la Kill and so on... yes, I know some examples aren't action oriented, but I do care, not empowerment storylines involve superheroes, violence, and world crises.
Also, would substitute the woefully incomplete Bubblegum Crisis with Dirty Pair instead.
Even in video games we had strong female characters. Kate Archer, Lara Croft, Chun Li, and thats just three.
@@3verlong Nice to see No One Lives Forever get a nod. Shame the games are still abandonware.
@@michaelandreipalon359i have the operative on ps2, yet to play it tho
I will forever maintain that Jim Gordon is way too good of a cop to NOT know who Batman is.
It's always a bit confusing to me that The Killing Joke is considered a non-canon story, and yet the byproduct of it (Barbara's accident) had to be be canonized for her to become Oracle.
Anyway, I absolutely love how BTAS incorporated Batgirl, similarly to Two-Face, by slowly setting her up first. And I always thought Barbara using her powder makeup to reveal the code on the key pad, was the coolest piece of detective work from any character, in the series. Batman included. (It's also a nice example of how femininity can be used in creative ways, and shouldn't be something writers run away from). She wasn't on the show alot, but they make the most of it when she is. As for the New Batman adventures, not much to say there, except I liked her redesign.
I really feel like you should do a discussion on Seduction of the Innocent
Interestingly this version of Barbara had multiple voice actresses during the DCAU I just found it bizarre they kept recasting her
And two of which seems to be cursed; one by suicide, another by shameful Islamophobia.
@@michaelandreipalon359If you’re talking about Tara Strong for the latter… you do know that she’s Jewish, right? It’s not fucking Islamophobia for her to side with her people when they come under attack. She didn’t even say anything beyond “Hamas can go and get fucked”
Barbara Gordon from Season 1 of BTAS is both the best characterisation and the best character design.
1:40 Huh, weird.
oooo gotham girls
People actually argue that Barbra Gordon Oracle can do more good than 1000 nights in the streets.
0:44 I hope Betty Kane is used in a future project to act as Bat Girl instead of Barbara Gordon. It would be interesting to see.
What she really didn't need to be was Batman's love interest. Honestly the fact that the New Adventures pushed their romance so hard has forever soured that season for me.
EDIT: Okay in retrospect I suppose TNBA was never explicit about it as Batman Beyond, mystery of the batwoman, or the comic spin off of that specific season, but I do remember some moments where they implied some flirting and again that was the “era” when it was first pushed.
that never came up in tnba... are you thinking of batman beyond?
@@FrozenJack2007 okay I admit that it was never explicit in tnba, but there was a lot of hinting at it.
@@jaohonaxa Its only in the Batwoman movie aside from BB. That film uses the TNBA character designs.
@@jaohonaxa It honestly didn't. It was Batman Beyond and Mystery of the Batwoman that did that. And even then they just have it as something that happens in the past and is never shown.
You can blame Bruce Timm for that.
I know there's already a lot in here, but… no mention of Barbara in _Sub-zero?_ She had a pretty big role in that - not as Batgirl, but as herself. It was weird, but cool.
*(sees title)* Sure seems contentious at first glance. Granted, it reminds me of my fervent opinion that the offscreen DCAU Hal Jordan should NEVER become a Green Lantern; instead, he must stay a bad**s Muggle ace fighter pilot, who was so in love with his job that Carol Ferris ended up becoming Star Sapphire.
0:50: Meanwhile, novels like The Lord of the Rings got away with it via men openly crying and relationships like Frodo and Samwise's.
1:32: Cute, she's wearing Leia Organa's hairstyle in A New Hope.
2:27: A tale that should have been adapted for The Killing Joke movie and thus replaced the original infamous stuff that started the film, according to some fans.
2:50: Oh, good, you didn't show off that sneaky nipple shot of the poor lass.
3:42: Basically the premise of the original concept for Justice League Unlimited's Double Date. However, I can easily argue that the Gail Simone concept featuring Green Arrow x Black Canary vs. Huntress x the Question vs. the Mandragoras plotline we got by way of the Bat-Embargo is the better story.
4:15: Sounds like Itsuki Myoudouin/Cure Sunshine from HeartCatch PreCure and Corran Horn from the Star Wars Legends novels. Also, The Batman 2004's Batgirl iteration's path from being just a wannabe vigilante to the Bats' very first apprentice... now that was quite an original take on the character's dynamic origins.
4:54: This moment got deja vu'd in Gotham Girls, alongside the Commish being replaced by a robot.
5:19 reminds me of the use of thermal goggles in Splinter Cell.
5:25: I don't care. In my opinion, had she not been around, then the world would be quite unfortunate since Batman wasn't around to stop, hmm, the Imperium or the Thanagarians... "For Want of A Nail", people!
The Batman Adventures issue 12 is a really good story, don't get me wrong, but its canonicity can be partially contested. For one, there seem to be folks wearing Wonder Woman costumes (though this may be chalked up on JL's "The Savage Time" chrono shenanigans); two, the story somehow is set during the interim of S1E56 - "Harley and Ivy" all the while Harley looks curiously different, and; three, Catwoman is strangely doing unmonitored crime pre-Catwalk (S2E9) and is uncharacteristically leading henchmen, which she isn't known to do in the DCAU. In my opinion, the first half should stay true canon, while the second half should take liberties, and thus should be a semi-canon prequel to "Shadow of the Bat" (S1E57-58).
6:57: If anyone wants catharsis on Barbara's vulnerability here, there's Batman: The Adventures Continue Season 2, where she kicks serious butt against Jazzman, with some Huntress spotlight.
7:06: Jazzman's hand should be bloody and mangled in reality.
Fitting how Rupert Thorne was Two-Face's mob target, considering their memorable history.
If it were me, I would gladly make Gil Mason be staying a good guy in a different DC universe iteration that I may make, even if means making him an undercover cop who seems like a loyal mook to a hated crime lord. Getting tired of the "oh, look, the new good guy character from out of nowhere is the villain all along" trope.
7:52: Doing a Matches Malone op, to be exact.
I actually like the "Batgirl Returns" title. Reminds me of when Mr. Freeze said *"the Dark Knight returns"* in The Batman 2004's distant future ep "Artifacts".
And speaking of, interesting how that ep, and by extension the SubZero movie (which is not alluded to in this video, hmm), are the series finale for B: TAS.
As an argument, the lack of TNBA Batgirl-centered eps is because she already has a sizable amount of spotlight moments in a lot of the episodes. Reminds me of how Starfire went through in Teen Titans despite her lack of a spotlight season (which may have been a Season 6, though there's the Teen Titans Go tie-in comics... no, not to be confused with that trashy show).
11:17: Dunno, a select number of folks can attend a different college that fits their criteria even after finishing some other college that didn't have the courses they really preferred. Who knows, perhaps she was attending a police academy, which explains why she became the prodigious GCPD Commissioner in Batman Beyond; man, would love to see this awesome retcon be fleshed out.
Anyways, if there's a lore detail that makes me foam in the mouth a bit, there's the mention of Mr. Freeze still on jail after the events of "Cold Comfort"... does this mean Gotham Girls is actually a Gotham Adventures interquel before the events of issue 51, where Freeze escapes to the Arctic up till Batman Adventures 2003 issue 16?
Ehh, Montoya didn't do much in Gotham Girls (though there's those tie-in comics). Also, where's good old Zatanna?
Hmm, why not Barbara Gordon-Young or Barbara Young-Gordon? I have a soft spot for mixed family names, like the theoretical Luz and Amity Blight-Noceda.
12:30: Nowadays deemed as anachronistic artistic liberties. The flashbacks most likely happened a few years after Justice League Unlimited (and maybe shortly after the dramatic JL Infinity tie-in comics), in what may be the year 2007.
On a sidenote, Barbara, on Bruce's final Batman years, did become Oracle in the Legacies of the DCAU fan webcomics.
I really wonder if her husband Sam, like her father James, figured that their awesome, brave, and kind wife was the Batgirl of yore, and yet didn't mention it because, well, it's inconvenient if said openly.
Batman Beyond Vol. II issue 13 can easily fit canon, that I can let slide.
Batman Beyond 2.0 is Elseworlds, but even I admit that some details, like Nightwing becoming scarred and grizzled and Terry being involved with the Justice Lords universe, should be DCAU canon. Not the poor Barbara has Bruce's child and then miscarriages bit though; but, I shall keep their past relationship if I had my way with the DCAU because it's already written canon no matter what.
Shame you didn't talk about her best friend chemistry with Supergirl (and how J's Reviews is oh so wrong about his views on "Girl's Night Out). Would even call that Barbara not being alluded to in Kara's last appearance, JLU's "Far From Home", just feels criminal.
Livewire has quite a fascinating history. She actually first appeared in the Superman Adventures tie-in comic for some reason, all while she became a budding heroine in what is now unfortunately deemed an Elseworlds arc (curses, Justice League's "Hereafter" and Justice League Unlimited Season 3).
*(Apologies if I'm continuity-centric on this video.)*
DCAU Barbara was OK in BTAS. Then The New Batman Adventures and Bruce Timm's obsession happened and that was it.
I wonder if Barbara went in for a second degree or even a Master's? That would explain Mystery of the Batwoman.
Will the Livewire video include her appearances in the tie-in comics? I recall she had an interesting arc in that series.
yep!
Wish Justice League didn't ignore those comics.
Didn't she have a pretty significant role in Batman: Sub Zero?
Oh yeah, Barbara Gordon was a key plot point, I definitely should've mentioned that too. Thanks for pointing that out!
For some reason Bruce Wayne @ 0:09 almost looks like Gabriel Logan from Syphon Filter
Did Tim Drake continue living with Bruce after being Joker brainwashed? I never thought about it before
That is a good question. I'd imagine Bruce got Tim into some exclusive and expensive programs to rehabilite him and kept his distance throughout most of it. Or Alfred effectively raised Tim. But who's to say.
@snes90 hopefully not a boarding school at least.
She is my 1st ever love/crush.
So aside from the 2.0 BB comics having the most blatant interpretation of a sexual relationship between Babs and Bruce, what do the implications from the show mean then? That is are they suggesting a sexual relationship or just some kind of romance? Barbra seemed to fantasize about being on a grand adventure full of danger and love in her day dreams in Batgirl Returns, and the her suggestive implications in the actual BB cartoon over coffee with Terry.
Given the fact that Barbara makes sexual advances towards Batman over the phone in Mystery of the Batwoman, and it makes him uncomfortable, I assumed it was more of an emotional relationship than a sexual one. Regardless, it all would’ve come to an end following the flashback scene in Return of the Joker, that was the point that he pushed everyone away.
I think Barbara's picture might appear in Bruce's montage of past lovers that he looks through at the end of "Out of the Past" as well?
@@Elfenlied8675309 Yes, she is there
I remember hearing that one of the head showrunnners/execs really had a… _thing_ for Batgirl, and projected himself onto Batman, and even though the writers didn’t like it he kept urging them to add more scenes to the show implying Batman and Batgirl had a sexual/romantic relationship. This was made pretty clear, but I can’t remember the man’s name.
@@nkbujvytcygvujno6006 It wasn't Alan Burnett was it?
Tbh, I reckon Babs would have gone into Law Enforcement anyway.
We never know what she studied at college so,for all we know,it could have been Uniformed Services, like how my college did
In the Batwoman movie, did they say what degree she was going for? Considering her intelligence in the comics, it would make sense for her to have gone back for either an advanced degree or a second bachelor's
Gonna be blunt, it's fucking gross how the DCAU, more specifically Bruce Timm treats Barbara. Sexing her up, having her hook up with Bruce. Ew
As much as I hate to be the "um, Actually-" person...I think it is worth pointing out that the picture of Bruce and "Barbara" at 15:33 ISN'T actually Barbara Gordon: It's Andrea Beaumont from The Mask of the Phantasm, who is redesigned in TNBA style.
I found this out VERY late, but someone pointed this out once. and if you compare the picture with TNBA Barbara Gordon, you can see minor differences (but the artists REALLY should've tried harder, as she looks too much like Barbara that it is no wonder so many have made this mistake. Even *I* thought it was Barbara.)
Nah, thats Barbara.
@SerumLake Agree to disagree, then (I like your content, and don't want to start a senseless argument.)
Frankly, I prefer it to be Andrea in my headcanon. The whole Bruce x Barbara ship is rather cringy in retrospect. It's fine if Barbara had a crush on Bruce (can't really blame her), but Bruce SHOULDN'T be attracted to someone Dick Grayson's age.
I personally heavily prefer Batgirl from Matsudaverse, but in DCAU continuity she is, in fact, a model Bat, a Bat Bruce ought to strive to become. Appreciating people around, not clinging to past like it's still here. Instead, she is kind of sidelined.
Matsudaverse... so, The Batman 2004/Teen Titans continuity?
6:01 - 6:09
Duplicant Batman is a fan of Gangstalicious I see
I agree that Commissioner Barbara Gordan was a good evolution of the character. A sadly realistic take of what life as a superhero can do to you.
i dont think anyone who has ever taken acid has had a flashback trip. its really old myth from like the 70s or something. norm macdonald even does a joke about, saying its the most economical drug ever if that were true. two trips for the price of one.
In BTAS Barbara actually became Batgirl because her father was set up by the new corrupt DA. Gordon was accused of taking Bribes and was in jail. She asked Batman to make an appearance to raise moral. But Batman refused so she dressed like him and pretended to be him. Later taking on the mantle of Batgirl to save her father's reputation
Man, I love Batman Beyond's version of Barbara Gordon (skipping the marriage part, yuck.) She doesn't want another Robin, luckily Terry isn't a Robin.
You know I was under the impression that this Batgirl was a thrill seeking promiscuous idiot and then in the Beyond era she just a bitter lover especially since she was threatening to arrest Bruce and Terry just for trying to protect her husband from a killer like that tie in comic to made some sense as to why she was bitter towards Bruce and that Terry was a underage offender which I don’t know would have taken his word when he trying to give the evidence on Derek Powers from the start?
As I said before about when Professor Hamilton compared Superman to the Devil just because he grabbed him by the neck while I guess that Dick would compare Bruce to the Devil for sabotaging and ruined his relationship.
I always wondered why they didn’t use Killer Moth when she was starting to be Batgirl but instead they use Two Face and Gil Mason?
12:49 speaking of would be the Canon to Batman as the canon that Miguel talks about in Across the spider Verse?
waitaminute. . . CYBERTRON industries?! *le gasp* More than meets the eye. . .
Yeah I noticed that immediately when watching the show, I think it was intentional, since one of that episodes editor also worked on transformers
Any chance you could talk about Batgirl in The Batman cartoon show in the future?
Never say never
A lot of post-DCAU stuff is worth lots of analysation. Just look at Teen Titans Robin, who may actually be the very same Robin as The Batman 2004, and with the fact that 2004's Batgirl was the one who first suggested creating a superteam of superteens...
11:23 she could've been going for her masters
Doesn't matter that the comics featuring Babs getting pregnant don't count, Batman started having sexual relationship with his best friend's daughter-a daughter he at least would've been in the orbit of since she was the age Dick Grayson was when Batman adopted a little boy. Then, the relationship happened after she, fresh out of college, was trained as a sidekick and worked with him for years. If that isn't grooming, it still belongs being discussed in the same paragraph.
I'm … not a fan of this relationship. But I don't think this was ever intended to be a case of grooming, and I don't think it was in any intentional sort of way. It wasn't what he intended, but it eventually was what happened.
As for Mystery of the Batwoman … I went back to university a bit after I graduated to get an advanced degree. So her being there for Mystery of the Batwoman isn't the continuity problem it sounds like for me.
The TNBA Batgirl/Babs is waifu material. Gorgeous redhead, smart, badass and sassy. What more could a man want in a woman? lol.
let's be thankful for barbara gordon that DIDN'T had sex with batman next to dead bodies
i don't believe bruce looks through pictures of his old loves specifically in that episode
My main issue with Barbara in Batman Beyond is that she contiues to be a little hostile towards Terry. Like I understand her not trusting him when he first became Batman, but it became annoying throughout the show.
I know it's non-Canon quote unquote
But it feels... kinda true. It just kinda dose.
No it doesn't. Like first actually reading those comics they just blatantly do not fit in canon with things they reference.
But beyond that Barbara talks about the relationship, smiling and saying how it's a shame it ended. If she lost a child and ruined Dick's life she's not going to be happy about it.
I understand. The comics' essentially Elseworlds, but moments like Nightwing being scarred and grizzled should become DCAU canon, right?
@@michaelandreipalon359 No...why would they be? It's out of character for everyone, it does nothing but traumatize 2 characters that do not need it, and adds nothing of value.
No Subzero explanation?
Nah she was awesome as batgirl we needed her
Yup
Maybe in she was earning a masters degree during "Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman".🤷♂
Or attending a police academy.
@@michaelandreipalon359 Maybe but it would make sense if that happened after she gave up being Batgirl, which didn't happen until after the flashback sequence from "Return of the Joker" which happens after "Mystery of the Batwoman"
Off topic tangent: I just realized how close the name "Return of the Joker" is to "Return of the Jedi" and both star Mark Hamill as the one who returns.🤯
Surprised that you did not touch on Batgirl and Robin's romantic relationship.
Cybertron? did you just say Cybertron? did the writers of BTAS take some inspiration from Transformers?
11:20 she could be getting a different degree, or even a masters.
And/or top grades from a police academy.