Miles is always looking forward - to innovate. Wynton is focused on bringing the past back to the forefront. Love both players but they’re totally opposite in that respect
I appreciate how Miles said, "Maybe later..." offering that chance. 1987 is a long time ago, and Wynton has never stopped playing a variety of styles and compositions. I think Wynton composes, so perhaps we should hear those compositions. He is really marvelous at reflecting the history of American trumpeting.
I'll just say this: I'd much rather listen to Miles than Wynton. This goes for speaking as well as playing. As Miles says, very precise. Wynton could certainly play rings around Miles as far as speed and technique but that doesn't matter. The fact that he had to record Cherokee just a little bit faster than Clifford tells me everything I need to know. I'm retired and cranky.
See I'm the opposite. Every once in a while I'm in the mood for Miles' minimalism, but it leaves me cold at times (too internalized). I'm more of a bop and West Coast fan. Miles is a giant, no doubt, and he changed Jazz, but he's not in my top 5 when compared to Lee Morgan, Diz, Bix, Louis or Clifford.
💥 Wynton Marsalis is the jazz police that believe only Americans can play Jazz, and jazz is only the music played in a 4/4 bar, and from New Orleans. For him, jazz fusion, latin, electronic, cool jazz, avant garde dont exist, or it's not jazz, but this way of thinking is deeply rooted on some "root" American jazz artists. Currently, jazz is not a rhythm anymore. Jazz is a worldwide style of music, a musical philosophy shared by mankind. ❤
He had to change his mind when he first heard 14 years old (at the time) Francesco Cafiso from Sicily (Italy). Also, he was pissed when brother Branford went to play with Sting. Classic Wynton...
How is he "the same"? He's definitely NOT just "precise" with "nothing extra". He can be very bluesy, very groovy, that's exactly a reason why I like his music so much.
💥 Exactly. Wynton Marsalis is the jazz police that believe only Americans can play Jazz, and jazz is only the music played in a 4/4 bar, and from New Orleans. For him, jazz fusion, latin, electronic, cool jazz, avant garde doesn't exist, but this way of thinking is deeply rooted on some American jazz artists. Currently, jazz is not a rhythm anymore. Jazz is a worldwide kind of music, a musical philosophy. ❤
@@DihelsonMendonca I hear you, bro... But Wynton has a point, too. If Americans took samba and transformed it into something new and universal, I bet many Brazilians would say that's not real samba. That does happen, actually! It happened with salsa (Cuban-Americans had to rebrand it in NYC so Cubans wouldn't be as pissed lol)
@@canastraroyal I hear you too. Well, the rest of the world transformed our Brazilian samba to their uses. I can hear in numerous recordings, and many times, people don't even know what is that. They did that with other our rhythms and styles, like Baião, which in English they call "Baion", and "Xote", and also our frevo. Also, Bossa Nova is a mixture of samba and jazz, but there's a mutual recognizing and respect. We don't mind people play and change our music. The history of Brazilian music looks like jazz: Slaves brought from Africa to work here centuries ago, brought their music, and here it was mixed with European music and harmony. So, several kinds of music was born. If we should be true to the history, we should credit the samba and many other styles here to black guys, but they never claime as authors. Brazil is a mix of several people, races, European whites, black people, and fortunately, we never had strong prejudice against any, because white people married to black ones, so, we one way or another, have white and black blood in our veins, so there's no room for any prejudice. So is in music. Music is for all. There are dozens of rhythms which are less known, as the "Choro", "Maxixe", "Xaxado", each part of the Country has it's own styles, and since it's a very big Country, often people from some states don't know how to exactly play the music of other states, but that's fine. With jazz, we introduced the art of improvisation in most of our music, beginning with bossa nova, but all other styles currently support creative approaches and improvisation. Meanwhile, the Japanese like to play bossa nova on their way, so the Europe and USA also. For our standards, their rhythm never achieves what we want to play. Brazilian drummers are so far ahead on this area, but unfortunately, they are not invited to play a real samba, or a real bossa nova. It's strange to listen to other people playing our music in less than good rhythmic division, but we are grateful for the choice, the taste and respect. In the jazz Real Book, there are several standards from the Brazilian music, from Tom Jobim, and others. Só, jazz has incorporated some of the Brazilian music, and we have also Incorporated some things from jazz. So, jazz really began in US, but currently, it was "adopted" and absorbed by numerous Countries, and currently we have "Fusion", which is a word to reune these many different styles. 🙏👍❤️
What he meant was that Wynton played within the constraints of styles. Miles innovated and broke free from every style. Wynton is lazy in this respect because he is comfortable where he is even though he has the talent to go beyond. Maybe one day he will. Still waiting for that one day
@@CapoKabarthat's not laziness. To be able to play what Wynton plays requires endless practice, study and discipline...hes far from being lazy. If you were a musician you'd understand this and not make such an ignorant statement. Wynton plays what he plays because he loves tradition, wants to keep it going and there's nothing wrong with that. He doesn't feel the need to come up with something new and different just because dick heads like Miles think that's what a musician has to do to be relevant . It worked for Miles, bully for him but he doesn't represent nor speak for the entire jazz world. Wynton has done just fine on his own without the endorsement of Miles.
There is some truth to what he's saying, Wynton himself admitted a few years back he cringed at listening to a song of his in the 80's, but i think that he believes in preserving the "sanctity" of the music. Miles lived the time period that Wynton admired so his thought process was more so along the lines of innovation and pushing the creative envelope along. They both have served their purpose to music
I've always viewed my favorite trumpet players as I would my favorite foods or drinks. It's the variety that makes things interesting. And thankfully I have options depending on what I'm in the mood for. I try to appreciate what each musician has to say musically and not get caught up in the subjective game of "who's better".
Miles Davis had great imagination and everything that he played whether you liked it or not.. he proved that decades.. Winton plays with just a jazz sensibility.. and like Miles says he’s a good trumpet player.. when he did the album black code from the underground there was a spark of that creativity that could’ve been.. but he turned his back on it.. and that I believe was his mistake..
Basically the Ponzy scheme financier said, Marsalis was an academic (which mind you by and in itself a real achievement). While to him accounting is art
Miles is one of the most innovative jazz musicians of his age, and created one of the best Jazz albums ever recorded- Kind of Blue. Maybe the best. Marsalis is an excellent classical trumpet player.
I do not see how Miles' statement is arrogant at all, it actually is considerate and quite nice, considering how cocky Wynton tried to create beef and put himself on the same level as Miles. Looking back it is very obvious who is an artist and who not.
I mean, you can't argue with Mile's take and you have to appreciate that he didn't chomp on the bait to inflame some kind of perceived rivalry. The difference between Miles and Wynton follows the differences between a pioneer and an expert, respectively. Experts get trapped in theory and are limited by what they think is understandable or traceable. Miles just followed beauty and didn't care to understand the metaphysical of it.
marsalis is a good player ....just in the same way some of these classical guys can play well... but he doesnt bring marsalis to the table...what is marsalis but a copy of other people...that is what miles is saying and is 100 percent correct. he has no magic of his own....but that takes genius....winton is a technical wiz...but he aint bringing nothing...lkiek te people who play motzart or bach....they never bring anything...they just play well. art blakey, miles davis, charlie parker and john coltrane ARE MOTZARTS....
This is such an outdated and tired take. You should listen to some of Wynton's original records on the Blue Note Label in the late 2000's. Check out "From the Plantation to the Penitentiary" (2007), and "He and She" (2009), and tell me he's just a technical cat. Those are legit (and original) contributions to the modern jazz lexicon.
@@adamashforthdrums I just listened to from the plantation to the penitentiary.. there was some decent playing, but no magic, nothing special, the tune was bland, didnt even slightly rattle my soul in any way shape or form...i was hoping you were right, and giving you the benefit of the doubt, that maybe I had missed something...which would be nice if i did, as it would hand me some more jazz magic....listen to art blakey and the jazz messengers "free for all" ..i nearly broke down and cried when i heard that tune....listen to stuff like, these tunes hit hard , super hard and affect oyur life..wynton doesnt seem to have those kind of ideas...but thanks for the tunes anyway...ill listen to anything, because it is rare that i get to find a true gem, so always on the lookout.
@@runthomas Is the minimum criteria of any music you listen to is “it must rattle my soul, or bring me to tears”?That’s a high bar - what an exhausting listening experience. How can you listen to music frequently if you’re constantly crying through it? Seriously though, that’s awesome you listened to the title track straight away. Give some other tracks on there a try. I particularly like “Doin’ (Y)our Thing” (fantastic live version from their Cuba record), as well as Supercapitalism, and the ballad Love and Broken Hearts. As other commenters have said, The Black Codes of the Underground was his first landmark statement as an artist. His body of work entitles him to be respected as an authentic jazz artist and creator; not just a preservationist. What’s ironic is that Wynton gets criticized for having a stubborn and narrow minded view of what jazz is - hey, maybe you guys are more alike than you think!
@hforthdrums yes that is my requirement....but when you have been around as long as i have, you have built up a collection of thousands of amazing tunes...so no its not exhausting, its really enjoyable....as long as you keep them sorted organised. really its all about soul...and marsallis doesnt have it going on.
I remember a concert in 1986 when Davis was on stage and Marsalis walked on hoping to play but Davis shooed him off the stage. It was weird but that’s Miles. I would have liked to see them play together but Miles needs the spotlight.
No. It wasn't weird. It was a matter of RESPECT. The concert promoter told Wynton to walk out on stage during miles set and challenge him. Wynton came out and told miles "Hey, they told me to come out here..." and Miles told him to get the @%# off the stage.
My belief is preference... everyone know Mr. Miles Davis and his sound. I'm fairly young at 50 plus and I just love Wynton's sound and style of playing. Trombone shorty is another monster for me.
I you know Miles, him repeatedly calling Wynton a good trumpet player means he’s telling the truth and it’s a sign of respect. Miles would not say someone was good if they weren’t. It’s more about willingness to go outside the box which Wynton does not favor and Miles lived for. Miles knew Wynton was good because, Wynton is really good, Miles didn’t throw false compliments around. It’s two schools of approach to music and we needed them both for the art to advance 👍
He's saying Wynton didn't have his own sound. From what I've heard of Wynton, he's most interesting when he's playing either Dixieland or classical, but not Bebop.
But Wynton's scope-within the older tradition-did widen in subsequent years.He found and solidly built upon his niche. Not every musician is as adventurous in the same manner as Miles was.In fact very few are true musical pioneers,as he was for several decades.
I think the context of this is Wynton had been critical of Miles for going electric, which offended Marsalis' idea of the proper acoustic roots of jazz. Wynton's cultural conservatism comes through in his (perfectly nice, but) comparatively very derivative and unimaginative playing.
Respectfully, what I know about Wynton…Miles assessment is correct. Perhaps that’s his classical training or just his nature. Personally, I’ve always preferred players willing to take chances, especially live. Even throw out the odd clinker, but push the envelope to unexpected heights! 🇨🇦
I completely understand what does it means. But what I do NOT understand is what this has to do with Wynton. He's completely capable of "pausing" and "playing as little as possible" and actually that was the reason he came to my radar and I became a fan of his many years ago when I saw some concert on tv, there was a solo of his in very minimalistic style. And since then I've heard so much of him, I never enjoy those "many notes players", Wynton ain't one of them. He has a special groove for sure. He definitely CAN pause. It doesn't mean that you should NEVER play "as many notes as possible", sometimes it sounds good.
I’d never criticise Wyntons playing- he’s a monster player versatile and technically accomplished. But Miles style and interpretation is unique and unmatched. It’s not about an amount of the notes it’s much more than that if you know what I mean
@@Paddy-power I know what you mean. That's exactly what I like in music. But what I'm saying is - I don't understand why Wynton is in the conversation about "amount of the notes". Every note he's playing has a meaning. There are so many trumpet players who sounds like they want to play as much (and as high) notes as possible, Wynton is not one of them.
But Miles was always looking foward. Dude was in the forefront of almost every jazz movement since de 50s. He also put the spotlight over a lot os major jazz musicians of our time, Coltrane, Cannonball, Hancock, Shorter, Ron Carter, Tony Williams, Mike Stern, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea and several others. What did Wynton do? I think now, in the 2020s we can say that Wynton did not achieve a 10th of what Miles did. He is a good trumpet player that is always looking backwards, ignoring new styles of music and jazz expression. A really snobish guy in terms of music. He's a good trumpet player, though, as Miles says. But just that. We could also argue that he is a better trumpet player than Miles ever was. But who marked the jazz forever? Miles Davis.
At this point in his life, Miles Davis said he was bored with jazz. Marsalis is obviously a fantastic horn player. Stylistically though, it wasn’t Miles’s cup of tea.
As Pat Metheny said, something somewhat troubling happened in 1982 when people came on the scene who were playing music for their parents. That is the story of WM.
The story of Wynton's life. Good trumpet player without anything extra. Of course, most people thought he was great because people pay attention to the next new thing, even if it's inferior to what came before it.
I saw Miles and Wynton play together in 88 in New Orleans. Miles was an arrogant ass to the audience and his fellow musicians. Shoving them around the stage and playing with his back to the audience. Hey Miles, there’s a lot more to being great than just playing the trumpet.
It’s very much the same now. Wynton remains a precise and incredible player-perhaps one of the most precise alive today. But listen to him play the Harry James Concerto for trumpet. Then listen to HJ himself play it, and tell me which performance feels more authentic, down-to-earth, inspiring. In my opinion, it’s not Wynton’s.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass I respectfully disagree. Wynton has the right to have his own musical expressions and identity on a particular piece. He is not Harry James. Therefore , his sentiments and preciseness towards the piece will come thru the horn.
Winston is one of the best four or five living trumpet players. He has more of a New Orleans jazz style and of course incredible unmatched technical classical skills. Miles was more advant garte in my opinion. I never was much of a fan of his music, although I appreciate his artistry. I Liked Freddie Hubbard a lot more. My favorite living player in this age is James Morrison. The guy can play any wind instrument.
@@morpheus3190 I meant with respect to “The guy can play any wind instrument “, that should have said brass. Not in the sense that he doesn’t play any wind instrument :)
Marsalis's precision is kind of off putting to me, but "Black Codes" and "J-Mood" are equal to "Kind of Blue" in terms of their emotional effect and musical fluency. I think Miles is showing a little jealousy here.
@@christiankrueger2330 "Black Codes from the Underground" was Marsalis's first jazz lp. It was followed by "J-Mood". Don't go by "fame" unless that's what you're into. Listen to the _music_ and let that be your guide.
Ellis Marsalis was not only a great musician, he was a great father who brought up some of the finest musicians out there. And Wynton is certainly one of them regardless of your view of his personality. Where was Miles when his children were growing up?
Look at Miles and Winton... First, this is high style, complete freedom, an explosion of artistic imagination! The second is conservatism, well-fed, ponderous solidity (beyond his years) You look at the first one with interest and delight. The second one is solid, but boring... The same goes for their music. Except for early Wynton, in the 80s, when he was still young and impetuous... Perhaps he was seduced by Lincoln Center
yeah Wynton plays the notes straight, he doesn't add any feeling to it like the greats. it must be his classical training that taught him to be note for note accurate. it doesn't work at all for jazz, with jazz its all about sound, you have to know to cut the sound to get the right feeling.
It's incredibly audacious to say that Wynton doesn't put emotion into his acting. It is understandable that someone did not like the style he plays, but to say that he has no emotions in music means that he is not a musician. There are no better jazzmen these days than Wynton or Herbie Hancock.
Sure, Miles will be Miles but how in the hell does anybody know whether anything he says at any given moment is said under the influence of drugs or alcohol?
Miles criticizing Wynton is a crock. Technically, Wynton is in another stratosphere. Miles was an inventor and was great in what he did but not a technician; he knew he had limitations and worked with what he had. Clark Terry, Morgan, Hubbard, Hurt, Severinsen and many others could all play rings around Miles.
You need traditionalists. Without them, every instrument will go the way of the electric guitar. Over the 60 years that I've played professionally I've seen the electric guitar go from inspired greatness in the hands of gifted players to absolute garbage nonsense.
Wynton is a reat musician! Does he try to be different like miles by cracking every other note? No like Miles says he is precise and technically ten times more sound than Miles! Miles is an acquired taste that is followed by the herd mentality folk who obviously cannot understand the "controlled noise" that comes out of his horn lol
It’s the same difference between bands of Stan Kenton and Duke Ellington. High and loud and “precise” vs. subtle and really playing the blues as individuals with different jazz personalities. .
Wynton Marsalis a musician, Miles is an artist. And when Wynton criticize Miles modern jazz is like Kenny G saying Trane just made a lot of noise. Come on Wynton shut up and collect your money and stop trying so hard to sound like an expert. You ain't
Miles is always looking forward - to innovate. Wynton is focused on bringing the past back to the forefront. Love both players but they’re totally opposite in that respect
I appreciate how Miles said, "Maybe later..." offering that chance. 1987 is a long time ago, and Wynton has never stopped playing a variety of styles and compositions. I think Wynton composes, so perhaps we should hear those compositions. He is really marvelous at reflecting the history of American trumpeting.
Music is an ocean where musicians are water drops.
maybe nowadays, but black codes changed the game
I try to innovate, but most people are comfortable doing what they know
Freddie Hubbard was light years ahead of both.
When you wear big sunglasses, you talk whatever comes to your mind and look badass. This theory is timeless
Badass? Looks like he just had his eyes dilated.
And look like a 70's pimp too...
Is pimping bad?
@@harounel-poussah6936he was a 70’s pimp.
@@kchuk1965 I heard about such rumours, but can you point evidences, i.e law enforcement records?
If I was Wynton, I`d take that. This is a huge compliment coming from Miles.
I'll just say this: I'd much rather listen to Miles than Wynton. This goes for speaking as well as playing. As Miles says, very precise. Wynton could certainly play rings around Miles as far as speed and technique but that doesn't matter. The fact that he had to record Cherokee just a little bit faster than Clifford tells me everything I need to know. I'm retired and cranky.
See I'm the opposite. Every once in a while I'm in the mood for Miles' minimalism, but it leaves me cold at times (too internalized). I'm more of a bop and West Coast fan. Miles is a giant, no doubt, and he changed Jazz, but he's not in my top 5 when compared to Lee Morgan, Diz, Bix, Louis or Clifford.
I’d say one thing, W has that ping, which is god given…it’s a joy that comes through…in his personality too….
💥 Wynton Marsalis is the jazz police that believe only Americans can play Jazz, and jazz is only the music played in a 4/4 bar, and from New Orleans. For him, jazz fusion, latin, electronic, cool jazz, avant garde dont exist, or it's not jazz, but this way of thinking is deeply rooted on some "root" American jazz artists. Currently, jazz is not a rhythm anymore. Jazz is a worldwide style of music, a musical philosophy shared by mankind. ❤
He had to change his mind when he first heard 14 years old (at the time) Francesco Cafiso from Sicily (Italy). Also, he was pissed when brother Branford went to play with Sting. Classic Wynton...
Wynton is still the same. The conservative jazz police
He did a very good job.
How is he "the same"? He's definitely NOT just "precise" with "nothing extra". He can be very bluesy, very groovy, that's exactly a reason why I like his music so much.
💥 Exactly. Wynton Marsalis is the jazz police that believe only Americans can play Jazz, and jazz is only the music played in a 4/4 bar, and from New Orleans. For him, jazz fusion, latin, electronic, cool jazz, avant garde doesn't exist, but this way of thinking is deeply rooted on some American jazz artists. Currently, jazz is not a rhythm anymore. Jazz is a worldwide kind of music, a musical philosophy. ❤
@@DihelsonMendonca I hear you, bro... But Wynton has a point, too. If Americans took samba and transformed it into something new and universal, I bet many Brazilians would say that's not real samba. That does happen, actually! It happened with salsa (Cuban-Americans had to rebrand it in NYC so Cubans wouldn't be as pissed lol)
@@canastraroyal I hear you too. Well, the rest of the world transformed our Brazilian samba to their uses. I can hear in numerous recordings, and many times, people don't even know what is that. They did that with other our rhythms and styles, like Baião, which in English they call "Baion", and "Xote", and also our frevo. Also, Bossa Nova is a mixture of samba and jazz, but there's a mutual recognizing and respect. We don't mind people play and change our music. The history of Brazilian music looks like jazz: Slaves brought from Africa to work here centuries ago, brought their music, and here it was mixed with European music and harmony. So, several kinds of music was born. If we should be true to the history, we should credit the samba and many other styles here to black guys, but they never claime as authors. Brazil is a mix of several people, races, European whites, black people, and fortunately, we never had strong prejudice against any, because white people married to black ones, so, we one way or another, have white and black blood in our veins, so there's no room for any prejudice. So is in music. Music is for all. There are dozens of rhythms which are less known, as the "Choro", "Maxixe", "Xaxado", each part of the Country has it's own styles, and since it's a very big Country, often people from some states don't know how to exactly play the music of other states, but that's fine. With jazz, we introduced the art of improvisation in most of our music, beginning with bossa nova, but all other styles currently support creative approaches and improvisation. Meanwhile, the Japanese like to play bossa nova on their way, so the Europe and USA also. For our standards, their rhythm never achieves what we want to play. Brazilian drummers are so far ahead on this area, but unfortunately, they are not invited to play a real samba, or a real bossa nova. It's strange to listen to other people playing our music in less than good rhythmic division, but we are grateful for the choice, the taste and respect. In the jazz Real Book, there are several standards from the Brazilian music, from Tom Jobim, and others. Só, jazz has incorporated some of the Brazilian music, and we have also Incorporated some things from jazz. So, jazz really began in US, but currently, it was "adopted" and absorbed by numerous Countries, and currently we have "Fusion", which is a word to reune these many different styles. 🙏👍❤️
I can see what he means. Miles was like a rock star.
The definition of damning with faint praise
”He’s a good trumpet player though..”
Lol yess
Well, I'll be damned if that aint faint praise
What he meant was that Wynton played within the constraints of styles. Miles innovated and broke free from every style. Wynton is lazy in this respect because he is comfortable where he is even though he has the talent to go beyond. Maybe one day he will. Still waiting for that one day
@@CapoKabarthat's not laziness. To be able to play what Wynton plays requires endless practice, study and discipline...hes far from being lazy. If you were a musician you'd understand this and not make such an ignorant statement.
Wynton plays what he plays because he loves tradition, wants to keep it going and there's nothing wrong with that. He doesn't feel the need to come up with something new and different just because dick heads like Miles think that's what a musician has to do to be relevant . It worked for Miles, bully for him but he doesn't represent nor speak for the entire jazz world.
Wynton has done just fine on his own without the endorsement of Miles.
Wynton is a Master of many styles. Miles was an innovator and kept it that way. Like no two boxers are the same, so it goes for them too
There is some truth to what he's saying, Wynton himself admitted a few years back he cringed at listening to a song of his in the 80's, but i think that he believes in preserving the "sanctity" of the music. Miles lived the time period that Wynton admired so his thought process was more so along the lines of innovation and pushing the creative envelope along. They both have served their purpose to music
I've always viewed my favorite trumpet players as I would my favorite foods or drinks. It's the variety that makes things interesting. And thankfully I have options depending on what I'm in the mood for. I try to appreciate what each musician has to say musically and not get caught up in the subjective game of "who's better".
Love them both,two totally different spirits.
One of the coolest cats of all time
KING OF COOL!!!
Miles Davis had great imagination and everything that he played whether you liked it or not.. he proved that decades.. Winton plays with just a jazz sensibility.. and like Miles says he’s a good trumpet player.. when he did the album black code from the underground there was a spark of that creativity that could’ve been.. but he turned his back on it.. and that I believe was his mistake..
Basically the Ponzy scheme financier said, Marsalis was an academic (which mind you by and in itself a real achievement). While to him accounting is art
Thank you for uploading this, i was able to use it on an essay for US history on an influential american artist
Miles is one of the most innovative jazz musicians of his age, and created one of the best Jazz albums ever recorded- Kind of Blue. Maybe the best. Marsalis is an excellent classical trumpet player.
I do not see how Miles' statement is arrogant at all, it actually is considerate and quite nice, considering how cocky Wynton tried to create beef and put himself on the same level as Miles. Looking back it is very obvious who is an artist and who not.
Wynton IS on the same level as Miles
Wynton is not on the same level as Miles nor will he ever be! Miles was an innovator!
Miles was often arrogant - for instance calling Oscar Peterson just a technician who repeated the same bag of tricks over and over.
I mean, you can't argue with Mile's take and you have to appreciate that he didn't chomp on the bait to inflame some kind of perceived rivalry. The difference between Miles and Wynton follows the differences between a pioneer and an expert, respectively. Experts get trapped in theory and are limited by what they think is understandable or traceable. Miles just followed beauty and didn't care to understand the metaphysical of it.
To be fair, this was more true in '87 than it is now.
Pero era el año 1987... hay estamos en el 2024...!!!
They came of age in such different eras.
marsalis is a good player ....just in the same way some of these classical guys can play well...
but he doesnt bring marsalis to the table...what is marsalis but a copy of other people...that is what miles is saying and is 100 percent correct.
he has no magic of his own....but that takes genius....winton is a technical wiz...but he aint bringing nothing...lkiek te people who play motzart or bach....they never bring anything...they just play well.
art blakey, miles davis, charlie parker and john coltrane ARE MOTZARTS....
This is such an outdated and tired take. You should listen to some of Wynton's original records on the Blue Note Label in the late 2000's. Check out "From the Plantation to the Penitentiary" (2007), and "He and She" (2009), and tell me he's just a technical cat. Those are legit (and original) contributions to the modern jazz lexicon.
@@adamashforthdrums I just listened to from the plantation to the penitentiary..
there was some decent playing, but no magic, nothing special, the tune was bland, didnt even slightly rattle my soul in any way shape or form...i was hoping you were right, and giving you the benefit of the doubt, that maybe I had missed something...which would be nice if i did, as it would hand me some more jazz magic....listen to art blakey and the jazz messengers "free for all" ..i nearly broke down and cried when i heard that tune....listen to stuff like, these tunes hit hard , super hard and affect oyur life..wynton doesnt seem to have those kind of ideas...but thanks for the tunes anyway...ill listen to anything, because it is rare that i get to find a true gem, so always on the lookout.
@@runthomas Is the minimum criteria of any music you listen to is “it must rattle my soul, or bring me to tears”?That’s a high bar - what an exhausting listening experience. How can you listen to music frequently if you’re constantly crying through it?
Seriously though, that’s awesome you listened to the title track straight away. Give some other tracks on there a try. I particularly like “Doin’ (Y)our Thing” (fantastic live version from their Cuba record), as well as Supercapitalism, and the ballad Love and Broken Hearts.
As other commenters have said, The Black Codes of the Underground was his first landmark statement as an artist. His body of work entitles him to be respected as an authentic jazz artist and creator; not just a preservationist.
What’s ironic is that Wynton gets criticized for having a stubborn and narrow minded view of what jazz is - hey, maybe you guys are more alike than you think!
@hforthdrums yes that is my requirement....but when you have been around as long as i have, you have built up a collection of thousands of amazing tunes...so no its not exhausting, its really enjoyable....as long as you keep them sorted organised.
really its all about soul...and marsallis doesnt have it going on.
I remember a concert in 1986 when Davis was on stage and Marsalis walked on hoping to play but Davis shooed him off the stage. It was weird but that’s Miles. I would have liked to see them play together but Miles needs the spotlight.
No. It wasn't weird. It was a matter of RESPECT. The concert promoter told Wynton to walk out on stage during miles set and challenge him. Wynton came out and told miles "Hey, they told me to come out here..." and Miles told him to get the @%# off the stage.
Maybe Miles was correct at that time but by the time I heard Black Codes From The Underground, I figured Wynton to be a special generational talent.
Interestingly this interview was 2 years after that album
@@error9900 maybe he hadn’t heard it. Or maybe he simply didn’t like him.
My belief is preference... everyone know Mr. Miles Davis and his sound. I'm fairly young at 50 plus and I just love Wynton's sound and style of playing. Trombone shorty is another monster for me.
I you know Miles, him repeatedly calling Wynton a good trumpet player means he’s telling the truth and it’s a sign of respect. Miles would not say someone was good if they weren’t.
It’s more about willingness to go outside the box which Wynton does not favor and Miles lived for.
Miles knew Wynton was good because, Wynton is really good, Miles didn’t throw false compliments around. It’s two schools of approach to music and we needed them both for the art to advance 👍
He's saying Wynton didn't have his own sound. From what I've heard of Wynton, he's most interesting when he's playing either Dixieland or classical, but not Bebop.
But Wynton's scope-within the older tradition-did widen in subsequent years.He found and solidly built upon his niche. Not every musician is as adventurous in the same manner as Miles was.In fact very few are true musical pioneers,as he was for several decades.
I think the context of this is Wynton had been critical of Miles for going electric, which offended Marsalis' idea of the proper acoustic roots of jazz. Wynton's cultural conservatism comes through in his (perfectly nice, but) comparatively very derivative and unimaginative playing.
Miles Davis took no prisoners 😶
Respectfully, what I know about Wynton…Miles assessment is correct. Perhaps that’s his classical training or just his nature. Personally, I’ve always preferred players willing to take chances, especially live. Even throw out the odd clinker, but push the envelope to unexpected heights!
🇨🇦
I love Miles’s quote. It’s easy to play many notes but it’s harder to pause and play as little as possible
I completely understand what does it means. But what I do NOT understand is what this has to do with Wynton. He's completely capable of "pausing" and "playing as little as possible" and actually that was the reason he came to my radar and I became a fan of his many years ago when I saw some concert on tv, there was a solo of his in very minimalistic style. And since then I've heard so much of him, I never enjoy those "many notes players", Wynton ain't one of them. He has a special groove for sure. He definitely CAN pause.
It doesn't mean that you should NEVER play "as many notes as possible", sometimes it sounds good.
I’d never criticise Wyntons playing- he’s a monster player versatile and technically accomplished. But Miles style and interpretation is unique and unmatched. It’s not about an amount of the notes it’s much more than that if you know what I mean
@@Paddy-power I know what you mean. That's exactly what I like in music. But what I'm saying is - I don't understand why Wynton is in the conversation about "amount of the notes". Every note he's playing has a meaning. There are so many trumpet players who sounds like they want to play as much (and as high) notes as possible, Wynton is not one of them.
Wyntons not in conversation. You may be overanalysing my original comment
The same could be said of Myles when he joined Charlie Parker after Dizzy left. He was young. What would Dizzy say of Myles' playing back in the day.
He’s talking more of the politics around jazz rather than the playing itself
But Miles was always looking foward. Dude was in the forefront of almost every jazz movement since de 50s. He also put the spotlight over a lot os major jazz musicians of our time, Coltrane, Cannonball, Hancock, Shorter, Ron Carter, Tony Williams, Mike Stern, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea and several others.
What did Wynton do? I think now, in the 2020s we can say that Wynton did not achieve a 10th of what Miles did. He is a good trumpet player that is always looking backwards, ignoring new styles of music and jazz expression. A really snobish guy in terms of music.
He's a good trumpet player, though, as Miles says. But just that. We could also argue that he is a better trumpet player than Miles ever was. But who marked the jazz forever?
Miles Davis.
Especially when Brownie passed away. If he had still been living, he would have hardly been recognized.
I agree, Marsalis is well-versed in what he does but he doesn't seek to break away, he's very traditional
I agree everything he said he’s talented. Nothing special but very good. A cool guy, but don’t mention him in with me in any the same sentence.
This isn't very long after the infamous Vancouver Jazz fest incident. When I saw the title of this video I was expecting much worse...haha.
So talks the man who was told by Bird to use a mute because his tone was ridiculous. Good thing he chose to innovate.
At this point in his life, Miles Davis said he was bored with jazz. Marsalis is obviously a fantastic horn player. Stylistically though, it wasn’t Miles’s cup of tea.
Funny he thinks that, cause Keith Jarrett isn’t very pleased with Wynton either
Too bad Miles had to go out like this.
Miles was a great musician. He should be taken seriously while he's playing music. It's best to leave it at that.
As Pat Metheny said, something somewhat troubling happened in 1982 when people came on the scene who were playing music for their parents. That is the story of WM.
The story of Wynton's life. Good trumpet player without anything extra. Of course, most people thought he was great because people pay attention to the next new thing, even if it's inferior to what came before it.
I saw Miles and Wynton play together in 88 in New Orleans. Miles was an arrogant ass to the audience and his fellow musicians. Shoving them around the stage and playing with his back to the audience. Hey Miles, there’s a lot more to being great than just playing the trumpet.
If Miles Davis critiques your musical abilities, listen and learn.
It should be that simple.
well - when he calls Oscar Peterson just a technician who used the same bag of tricks over and over, I'm sorry I have major disagreement with.
@@jamesrawlins735
It’s possible to disagree, listen and learn although most people wont listen and learn once they disagree
🫣🤔🤫
Have had.
Aaron
hmm, interesting🤔. That was then, how about now. ?
It’s very much the same now. Wynton remains a precise and incredible player-perhaps one of the most precise alive today. But listen to him play the Harry James Concerto for trumpet. Then listen to HJ himself play it, and tell me which performance feels more authentic, down-to-earth, inspiring. In my opinion, it’s not Wynton’s.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass I respectfully disagree. Wynton has the right to have his own musical expressions and identity on a particular piece. He is not Harry James. Therefore , his sentiments and preciseness towards the piece will come thru the horn.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Wynton never played the Harry James Concerto for trumpet...
That’s got to hurt Wynton.
Miles being miles and his miles so what he says goes
Micheal Jordan kinda execution personality
Wynton's classical playing gets in the way of his style in jazz..."too precise".
Freddie Hubbard was the shit tho
"Wynton ... is a good player... but perhaps needs ... more drugs... you know"
Wynton: " Hold my beer"
I get what Miles is saying...I'm curious as what he would think of Wynton today.
The same!
Shut up!-...he's the best!...🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣...just kidding😁😆😅🤣🤣😂😂
Wynton complained a lot about Miles, apparently not realizing that he was basically stealing his style.
Wow, when another jazzman calls you straight that's pretty bad
The Wynton disrespect in the comments is crazy.
Can't disagree, most of Wynton's jazz both then and now does very little to get me excited.
Miles er en sur gammel mand
Miles seems like a humble guy… almost unbearably humble!
😎
Largely unknown fact: You could see Davis' ego from space.
Winston is one of the best four or five living trumpet players. He has more of a New Orleans jazz style and of course incredible unmatched technical classical skills. Miles was more advant garte in my opinion. I never was much of a fan of his music, although I appreciate his artistry. I Liked Freddie Hubbard a lot more. My favorite living player in this age is James Morrison. The guy can play any wind instrument.
Thanks for the mini essay but the guy's name is wynton
@@connorbyrne5036 yeah I know , but my autocorrect doesn’t…. Lol.
@@morpheus3190 Also, he plays brass instruments, not wind instruments :)
@@Hvidbergen he also plays saxophone and clarinet.
@@morpheus3190 I meant with respect to “The guy can play any wind instrument “, that should have said brass. Not in the sense that he doesn’t play any wind instrument :)
Marsalis's precision is kind of off putting to me, but "Black Codes" and "J-Mood" are equal to "Kind of Blue" in terms of their emotional effect and musical fluency. I think Miles is showing a little jealousy here.
One of those is the most famous jazz album and the other two I've never heard of
@@christiankrueger2330 "Black Codes from the Underground" was Marsalis's first jazz lp. It was followed by "J-Mood". Don't go by "fame" unless that's what you're into. Listen to the _music_ and let that be your guide.
Ellis Marsalis was not only a great musician, he was a great father who brought up some of the finest musicians out there. And Wynton is certainly one of them regardless of your view of his personality. Where was Miles when his children were growing up?
You can tell miles respected wynton but he did not respect the way in which wynton focused on an “outdated” style
For Miles...it was outdated! Still a great jazz format to listen to,though.
Wynton is a great Trumpet player. not good as Miles says here. he's great
Look at Miles and Winton... First, this is high style, complete freedom, an explosion of artistic imagination! The second is conservatism, well-fed, ponderous solidity (beyond his years) You look at the first one with interest and delight. The second one is solid, but boring... The same goes for their music. Except for early Wynton, in the 80s, when he was still young and impetuous... Perhaps he was seduced by Lincoln Center
yeah Wynton plays the notes straight, he doesn't add any feeling to it like the greats. it must be his classical training that taught him to be note for note accurate. it doesn't work at all for jazz, with jazz its all about sound, you have to know to cut the sound to get the right feeling.
Really?
It's incredibly audacious to say that Wynton doesn't put emotion into his acting. It is understandable that someone did not like the style he plays, but to say that he has no emotions in music means that he is not a musician. There are no better jazzmen these days than Wynton or Herbie Hancock.
Sure, Miles will be Miles but how in the hell does anybody know whether anything he says at any given moment is said under the influence of drugs or alcohol?
ok yea but black codes
Miles criticizing Wynton is a crock. Technically, Wynton is in another stratosphere. Miles was an inventor and was great in what he did but not a technician; he knew he had limitations and worked with what he had. Clark Terry, Morgan, Hubbard, Hurt, Severinsen and many others could all play rings around Miles.
Listen again. You are on the same page as Miles.
Miles said he wanted to die with his hands around a white mans neck.
Well I’ve heard Wynton’s tribute to Louis Armstrong so I really don’t agree with this.
I agree with Miles but add that I quickly get bored listening to Wynton.
Miles hatte nicht genug Stoff zuhause um was vernünftiges rauszuhauen.
Looks like Davis' fame has gone to his head! Painful to watch...
И в чем он не прав? 😂 марсалис глазированный джэйзи от мира негров😊
You need traditionalists. Without them, every instrument will go the way of the electric guitar. Over the 60 years that I've played professionally I've seen the electric guitar go from inspired greatness in the hands of gifted players to absolute garbage nonsense.
So Tosin Abasi and Tim Henson aren't gifted players?
When you recycle jazz music you will never be a great jazz artists until you invent your own style of play.
Oh Preach!
Who ever Miles is
Good trumpet player. But not an especially good musician.
Wynton is a reat musician! Does he try to be different like miles by cracking every other note? No like Miles says he is precise and technically ten times more sound than Miles! Miles is an acquired taste that is followed by the herd mentality folk who obviously cannot understand the "controlled noise" that comes out of his horn lol
It’s the same difference between bands of Stan Kenton and Duke Ellington.
High and loud and “precise” vs. subtle and really playing the blues as individuals with different jazz personalities. .
@@Puceter what you describe captures what an accomplished instrumentalist is vs a musician.
@Puceter Miles sure sounds technically proficient on those mid 60s quintet recordings.
@@PuceterI’m not familiar with any of the Miles recordings you mentioned where he cracks every other note…
Wynton Marsalis a musician, Miles is an artist. And when Wynton criticize Miles modern jazz is like Kenny G saying Trane just made a lot of noise. Come on Wynton shut up and collect your money and stop trying so hard to sound like an expert. You ain't
sounds like MIles is Jealous..!
Wynton unlike his brother Branford is old school dusty crusty who needs to explore his harmonic vocabulary.
Agreed..being also an English teacher..l think l just learnt a new expression.."dusty crusty"
Haha..all the best bud..greetings from Havana.