See how much plastic deformation of the head after initial heat cycle actually happens. Athena says for example not to retorque. I know tuners and racers who have had the gasket fail if they didn’t retorque. And those cars are pretty serious. Also do one on the 3 step torque procedure, compared to one step. Another channel said 3 step like arp says reduces the clamp load. Also test arp’s at a higher initial preload. Their ratings are supposedly 75%. There is another head stud manufacturer in the diesel world. Loved seeing the pqy. Would love to see more options, just because ARP prices have only gone up, availability gone down. Personally I just re installed my heads with 1/2” standard arp studs at 129-130 each, on the whole shot. Surprised I didn’t strip the aluminum block 🤣
Not a cylinder head bolt myth but I've heard that a bolt only needs 3 full threads turns engaged with a nut etc to exceed the tensile strength of the body of the bolt i.e. the bolt body will stretch before failure of the threads of the bolt or nut. Any chance you could test that?
Although I wouldn't say 24 hours is necessary, an hour or so is how long I wait when using copper head gaskets. The nuts will generally drop from around 90 ft. Lbs to around 75-80 ft. Lbs at the head of the fastener
This channel is quickly becoming the hardware test variant of Project Farm in the amount dedication and attention to detail, I love it. On behalf of all the subscribers, please Keep it up, and thank you. 👍 👍
Really cool test with off the shelf test equipment! At work (for a large diesel manufacturer), we've put in a lot of research to bolted joints and have some info that may be helpful here. The dial indicator was solid, in industry we grind the tops and bottoms of each bolt, and measure the stretch with an ultrasonic gauge (MC900), and correlate that to a tensile test to get actual preload. Bolt preload with a torque only torque procedure is typically accurate to +/- 30% using the same fastener design with the same threads and same coating... different coatings can influence the friction factor of the threads by typically 30-50% as well, which further compounds the error from a straight torque. different tensile diameters (like parts that have a waisted or turned down shank) will also vary the preload for the same thread size. In a straight torque joint, preload is directly proportional to the total friction coefficient times the torque applied, with the grip length (distance from the underhead surface of the bolt to the first engaged thread) being independent with no contribution. +/-30% is pretty excessive, so on more clamp load sensitive joints, we implement a torque+angle, non torque to yield (TTY). In these joints, about 1/3rd of the preload comes from the straight torque, with the resultant preload coming from the fixed displacement of the threads. This means that bolt friction only contributes to that 30% error to the first 1/3rd of preload. The difficult part of this though is that because it's a fixed displacement, the distance that displacement occurs over (the grip length) does matter. For the same angle of displacement, the shorter the grip length, the higher the preload in the bolt. This means that in this test, variation in the ram height, and moving from the thick block of aluminum to the thin block all affected the amount of stretch in the bolts when you used the torque+angle torque procedures called out by the manufacturers. If you need to control preload distribution tighter, that's where torque to yield (TTY) comes in. We can typically get to a +/-5% range with these fasteners, especially with yield sensing torque spindles. Again these torque+angle procedures are still sensitive to grip length, but because you're working in a different area of the stress/strain (or torque/angle) curve, they're a little less sensitive. Great work, and feel free to reach out with any bolt questions, especially as far as materials, coatings etc. go, and their effects on fastener absolute strength or fatigue strength... you've officially just scratched the surface!
I had a head gasket blow on an 1.6L ecotec and I was in a pinch so I went down to my local nut and bolt supply and bought 17 12.9 grade bolts and two nuts. Used the two nuts and the 17th bolt in a vice to "measure" how much torque it took to snap the bolt. I believe it was like 370 ft lb. Set the torque wrench to 300 and one by one removed the old bolts from the head and reinstalled the 12.9's at 300 ftlb. I don't care what anyone says. It worked, I went from being 120 PSI down in two of four of the cylinders to being 185 on all cylinders. The car hasn't seen a lot of miles since because catalytic converter stolen but suffice it to say hardware store can save your ass sometimes.
Would love to see helicoil inserts tested! Use them all the time at work to fix stripped out threads in 6061-T6 aluminum in automation equipment and always wondered if they're equal, worse or better than the original threads. Great work as always!
@@thrownchance I generally assumed stronger, but never had the data to back it up, and by how much it was. Also generally never had problems with threads bigger than M6 or so in aluminum, its always been the small screws, particularly M2.5's and M3's or fine thread #4 and #6 series SAE screws from technicians over-tightening them.
To save the dial-indicator you could rotate it 180c, and measure how much it's moving upwards. And ofc something which sticks out on the "cylinder head" to measure against. Then upon breaking, it would hopefully jump upwards away from the dial-indicator.
Rivet nuts in varying sizes and materials would be interesting to see as well! As often as I use them to replace bolt and nut mounted equipment on bucket trucks, I have to say, they seem to hold up better when confronted by repeated operator errors 😂
@@randyruppel6727 it's basically a rivet without a center pin. In place of the pin is a threaded sleeve that crumples a bit to bulge inside of a blind hole and create the effect of a tapped hole.
@@chuckschillingvideos in sheet metal up to .25 inch thick, I have always found that rivnuts are almost always stronger than threading the base material esp. when dealing with fine thread applications.
I design and test head bolts like this for all of the major OEs. Uniformity of clamp load is by far the most important factor when attempting to seal a head gasket surface like this. Max clamp load sound sexy but that's not what generates long term reliable performance. TTY is your friend.
What would be your recommendation then? I'm planning on rebuilding the DOHC 4.6L 4v in my 2004 SVT Cobra soon and will be running factory ported heads and custom cams.
@@Digr2108 I'm not an engine builder, I'm a fastener guy. So the question I'm going to ask is Will factory style TTY head bolts survive in your application? If that's the case, and you're not me spitting out head gaskets, that's absolutely what I would run with. When you make the jump to studs it's a huge compromise on clamp load uniformity but you're doing race car things so you give up a lot to make that extra power. With a mild to medium non boosted build like that I would think the factory TTY head bolts would be just fine. Make sure everything is flat and true, I've seen guys struggle because they've got warped heads or a warped deck and they're upset at the fastener in the gasket.
@@otm646 thats the whole deal between studs vs tty You get waaaay more clamping load with studs, but no clamping range in the working load range Its like a small rubber band vs a long one, both exert the same amount of force at full extension, but one is 3" long and one is 12" long So when you lose 12% on the long one, you still have plenty of clamping load, but the small one with a 12% loss of length will be damn near loose Tty would be fine if they would upsize the bolts one size
@@Digr2108 I have been building big power 4cyl cars for many years. What most get wrong is surface finish. Most head gaskets require a specific RA or roughness average to seal correctly. Composites are great when surface finish is not perfect. From my experience a L19 or 625+ will usually take about all you throw at it, its the gasket and surface finish that lets you down. I have sense gone to play with O rings cut into the cylinder head and back with composite head gaskets. But i have used metal layer gaskets with L19's to well above 45psi. These are on cars with 10:1 compression 122CI and turbos in the 64mm-68mm range. I have also seen guys think torquing Studs to well above recommended is good idea but on Cast block with aluminum head i have found that to make it worse as it flex's the head more then help.
@@narmale Studs or bolts are irrelevant. The property class of the material used is the only thing that matters given the same length. You can manufacture TTY studs, I've designed them. The issue you run into is when you're running 200 KSI materials is that you've traded so much ductility for that tensile performance you get an extraordinary narrow window between yield and fracture. In a factory property class head bolt you've got a relatively large zone between yield and fracture which allows for TTY to even exist and also gives you a much more uniform clamp load. When you're running studs that aren't supposed to be yielded it's very difficult to reach that uniform clamp load because of the slope rate you're at, fractions of a degree on your torque angle procedure influenced clamp load dramatically.
Lore is that stretched old OEM LS headbolts get stronger after a normal lifetime of heat cycles, that fella on TH-cam Driveway Engineer talked about it in one of his videos and there were limks to tests people did but I don't feel like digging for them lol
I worked at a construction company and they changed the nut and bolt supplier. I was using 1/4 -20 bolts and I snapped 3 out of 12 off, and I was just snugging them up. They held the cutting wheel on a asphalt cutting that would be mounted on the front backhoe bucket. I said something to the other mechanics and they hadn't had any issues yet. I drilled out the brokens and the boss went to replace them. He thought I was over tightening them. Well he snapped 2 of them off and only had one hand on the ratchet and was just over what we considered snug. They were marked grade 8 however they were not even close to the older bolts that we found in the back of the bin. All in all it was good that it was cought before they started being used to bolt on fifth wheels on the trucks or for suspension work. Someone got to go through all of the NC and NF stuff and pick out all the new style nuts and bolts. I'm not sure how things ended up after they confronted the place about it.
I've run into this using some OEM John Deere bolts brand new. Went to torque them to factory spec and they just stretched and broke. Swapped them out for same grade bolts out of our shop bolt bin and those worked perfectly. Always cautious of JD bolts now
This situation goes on with a lot of things the last few years. They manufacture out of scrap metal to only make stuff up to code but their batches vary a lot, whereas old stuff exceeds the rate and are pure aloys of what is being used.
Use a block that overhangs the hydraulic ram and set the indicator up on the underside of it. It will last much longer that way and still measure the bolt stretch.
We had a customer use generic aftermarket studs in a mustang 5.0 coyote. We had it on the engine stand and literally shot a stud past my head 30 minutes after it was torqued down. It went up to the second level and through the back of a cabinet. We found it in the cabinet. Scary as hell. I can see easily when you calculate the estimated 100mph or faster flying passed your head.
Last year while gathering everything for a cam swap/dod delete i came across this choice, given how i had already spent close to 1k in parts up to that point and how the 6.2 Chevy LS cost far more than ARP bolts the choice was obvious. There are things that can jeopardize a complete build when you choose to save a few dollars(literally), after that decision i went back and purchased BTR pushrods to avoid using the no-name rods i had purchased earlier.
To save yourself on dial indicators, make a simple little one-to-one ratio pivot with a light spring pulling down on one side, put the sprung end on the top of the cylinder head, and then put the tip of the dial indicator on the other end so that the dial indicator is always reading down and then when there is failure the dial indicator will not receive an impact. And since the pivot is one to one it will still give you an accurate reading.
It's wild that this video pops up in my feed this morning, as I just received a set of head studs for my engine build and was doing lots of research into ARP2000, L19, and aged 625
What's most impressive to me is the fact that the cheapo amazon ones are actually pretty competent for someone going for ultra low budget upgrades. The only unknown would be the consistency of manufacturing.
Speaking from experience here. Had one of the cheap amazon/ ebay sold chinese ARP knock offs fail (they all seem the same with a different name on them). Torqued to ARP specs with a trusted torque wrench. The first head went fine halfway through the second one failed well short of fully tight. Buyer beware!
12:14 - Quick note. There is "detonation" and there is "pre-ignition" which are both distinct, different phenomenon in a gasoline internal combustion engine with distinct failure modes and solutions. But there is no "pre-detonation". Unless you were trying to cover both terms with one. Pre-ignition is when the air/fuel mixture is ignited BEFORE the spark plug fires, often due to a (sharp) hot-spot in the cylinder, or an over-all high temperature due to a dynamic compression ratio that's too high. It only takes one or a few of these events to completely destroy an engine, create holes in the block, etc. as all of the mixture is ignited at the wrong time, and the cylinder is still rising. The solution for this is to avoid sharp spots in the combustion chamber, use adequate octane fuel, and adequate temperature spark plugs (so the electrode doesn't become a source of pre-ignition). Detonation is when the air/fuel mixture has already been set alight by the spark plug and the flame front is propagating, increasing the dynamic compression on the unburned air/fuel mixture remaining in the combustion chamber. Eventually the remainder of the unburned fuel ignites all at once instead of in a controlled burn, spiking cylinder pressures and damaging (pitting) piston heads, cylinder walls, and poppet valves. An engine can survive many, many detonation (AKA knock) events compared to pre-ignition before any major damage is done to the engine and failure modes are much more gradual. This is because only a small amount of the mixture is ignited at the wrong time and the cylinder is almost always traveling back downward at this time. The solution for this is to ignite the mixture appropriately late in the cycle, use adequate octane fuel, avoid octane reducing PCV systems if possible, and be aware of static and dynamic cylinder pressures.
You should 3D print ( or soft aluminium) a small flat bracket for the indicators, with a break away notch. You can use a screw in the rod with a 4-48 screw, and offset the indicator out of the "kill zone"
As a racing engine builder, the decision you talked about in the beginning of the video is a daily thing for me. I appreciate the work yall put into your videos!
I've done bolt tensile/stretch failure studies utilizing a jig and an instrumented press, the sound from even the small ones would make everyone in the area jump, wish I could have watched you guys running this in person
Great work gents, I have some input about the dial indicators, if you would have a washer larger then the slug of cast iron or like you ran the test on the shorter bolts, you could have run the indicator upside down and compressed it and read the measurements on the way out and not ruined all those dial indicators! Bolts really are for accountants and studs are for engineers...
Thread inserts would be an interesting video. My dad would always use HeliCoils and I never thought they could hold up to a good tapped thread, but in a pinch they always seemed to work, after that I was wondering about the theoretical max load of rivnuts.
Here's a good test for you, the LS crank bolt is debated as to whether it needs to be replaced after being used once, the manual shows it's a tty bolt but many people reuse it, would be really cool if you tested the stretch the stock bolt makes after being installed at the manuals torque specs 👍 great video
Imagine removing a TTY crank bolt and deciding to reuse it rather than spend the little amount for a replacement lol. Always replace a TTY bolt, even if people get away with reusing them why take that risk over a couple bucks? If you take out a used LS crank bolt and put it next to a new one, the stretch will be obvious! Safe than sorry
@@novinnovations4026 I have people telling me by compaing a used TTY bolt with a new one there is no difference. People thought bolts are rubber band, they can simply see the strain.
@@Align700nitrothat is a lie, I have a used LS3 Crankshaft bolt and a new one in my garage. The used one is thinner and the thread pitch is stretched out where the bolt yielded. It is obvious to the naked eye. Later I might make a short to show you the stretch.
Xotics are being used now in some LB7 Duramax racing applications, but many are still unsure about them. I would love to see them go head to head....pun intended
Can you do a test where you torque the bolts to spec and then wait 24 hours and torque again to see if they move further (like they relaxed and loosened)? I saw a video one time where a guy would consistently get ~1/8th turn next day.
For all but the most extreme Applications the Felpro seems like a very good bet as had lowest extension just prior to yield, the OEM bolt had nearly double the exentsion at the same tensile load, but would need to see at least a full set of each tested to see if there really is a consistent difference.
I think that this is a great advertisement for the $60 Chinesium PQY Racing Studs, especially targeted at those guys that attempt to re-use their OEM Head Bolts. Obviously not a replacement or even competitor for anything ARP, but priced and strength proven to be better than OEM. Great Info.
Be careful drawing conclusions from this testing. There are so many factors that go into the design of threaded connections. Thermal expansion, head material and thickness, head gasket material and thickness, block material, lubrication, anti-rotation features and more all effect the clamping load and the bolt stretch. You have shown that stronger bolts break at higher loads, this was already known. I would caution against saying that stronger bolts = less head lift, they are likely correlated but it is not always the case.
I have arp2000 on mine, it's a 14 mil 12-point socket. I have 24 of them holding my head on and my turbos produce around 100 PSI at the manifold with wide open throttle
Use a large washer/ring and put it somewhere on the setup, then measure from under the washer with the dial indicator. When it breaks, all the flying parts go AWAY from your dial indicator...Basically you preload the indicator then unload it as the bolt stretches. You could also do a lever thingy, with a 1:1 ratio, and measure on the other side of the lever (one side touching the bolt, other side meant for the indicator). In this case you measure from above as you did in this video, but since you are not measuring the bolt but the other side of the lever, it again goes AWAY from the indicator. Hope this helps or comes in handy for future tests ;) Kind regards, M
measuring from under was my first thought, it was sad to see the indicators destroyed, but hopefully they see this comment so next time they can spare some money on equipment
My dad told me about an old racer's trick a while ago when we were building the engine for my truck and I would be curious if there is any merit to it. Basically you torque the head bolt down, then hit it with a hammer to "shock" it and take the twist out of it, then torque it again and you get more toque out of it.
Another note worthy plus of studs over bolts is they put the tension on the nut instead of the threads in the block. Which in an aluminum block, the steel nut will handle much more than cast aluminum threads
I've not read 'all' the comments, so forgive me if it's a repeated suggestion, but you may be able to save a few pennies on indicators if you invert the indicator and indicate off of a tab that's affixed to the head of the fastener. Then when it lets go, it just takes off and the proboscis of the indicator just extends to its functional limit unharmed. How you affix the tab to the head of the screw is TBD . . . Quick epoxy, super glue, hot glue? I know to test oem button caps and dials we often "glue" tabs or shafts to them to get linear displacement numbers. Love the channel.
Very interesting. Just to let you know, I believe you made a small mistake in the strength calculations, that resulted in strength numbers a bit lower than they should be. The mistake is in calculating the tensile stress area of the bolt/stud. This should be done based on the average of the minor diameter and the pitch diameter. For an M11x1.5 that results in a tensile area of 72.3 mm^2 (0.112 in^2). That means the OEM 10.9 studs for example have a strength of 163 ksi rather than your figure of 145. Likewise, the ARP2000 is 226+ vs 201+, the L9 at 236+ vs 230+ and the PQY at 188 vs 167. Likewise for the rest. Not a big deal, but it puts the results more in line with the specifications.
this was pretty awesome and honestly I use ARP bolts when building either stock or mild engines when I built my 12.5:1 compression Honda g23 I used arp studs and they were expensive and that was 5 years ago I can't imagine what they cost now but my 350 horsepower Ford 302 has ARP bolts and I've re-torqued them three times, three different sets of heads no problems whatsoever
This must be the best "bolt" porn on the net! Seriously I have once again learned a lot more and think back of times we re done heads only to see them fail again. No proper engine tuner could look past this channel! Perhaps give them dials a good grave yard.
This video was right up my alley. I used to have all this in a class at school years ago, some mechanics also were explaining this to me, bo now seeing this video all became crystal clear. Next video I will watch is yours about bolt grades.
I think a similar test of connecting rod bolts would be interesting. There are lots of opinions out there about what are the best. My theory is the difference is not necessarily material, it is that some bolt manufacturers use alternate thread profiles, e.g. UNJ instead of UNF. Would be cool to see real data. It was interesting to see all failures occurred within the treads, just where they should!
Thanks for a great video as always! It would be interesting to see a similar test with lug nuts. I think in some countries as well as the NHRA, the studs need one widths amount of length sticking out from the lug nut. Does that really make a difference? Do open or capped lugs hold better? Do steel wheels hang on better than aluminum wheels? Also, so lug nuts hold better than lug studs?
Aaaah drag racing. Have 1/2 or more of stud outside the nuts,,,, dumb dumb and dumber. You do not need any more than a full nut of thread. The rest is doing NOTHING!! A std nut v a closed end one? A longer thread may help clamping very marginally. Maybe! A nut is better than a stud,, what are they thinking!! Lik Mopars with LH thread on the left! Dumb Done up properly alloy or steel, it makes no difference. Left loose however alloy frets and ultimatly comes loose. Steel is better. Though do the nuts up and no issue.
OK...if you don't want to kill as many indicators the next time, build a small hinged lever to indicate off of (essentially a see saw). Make the ratio of the sides 1:1 or some other factor if you like. But when the load side breaks free and up, it drives the opposite (indicated) side of the lever down and away from the piston on the dial. Speaking for a friend....
Thanks for the video! I know you put a lot of effort into it. I have used all types of cylinder head bolts from ARP to knock off brands. I always wondered about the strength difference you guys helped answer that question. One note to others, it's very important on how you prepare your bolt. When adding lube, or Teflon sealer it can really change the pressure when torquing the bolt making it stretch beyond the desired limit. So, be sure to install your bolts as dry as possible and with clean threads. If you have to use Teflon sealer use it sparingly. Also ARP lube is the most consistent over regular oil, or other forms of grease. Thanks again!
Dang TTC! Just when I think this channel is running out of material you guys hit a home run! I'm really into it. I'm definitely with the above comments about time-sert, I'd like to see how those perform. Great job as always and I'd like to see some more merch come out for your channel. The t-shirts are awesome ;) (hat's wound be awesome!)
Omfg thank you I searched for a video like this a few months back and got mad no one had made a video yet but there’s been 100,000+ engines built with upgraded bolts and studs.
You did a great job with this. You may want to consider torquing to a given bolt stretch. Coatings, lubricants and variations in manufacture can have a significant effect on preload vs applied torque. Joint failure actually occurs once preload is exceeded at that point you basically have zero preload on the gasket. Normally these fasteners in this application would be fatigue tested with cyclic load applied to a preloaded Joint. Basically your higher strength bolts are installed at a higher preload to prevent Joint separation. Again good job it gets people thinking about what they are paying for.
Time-serts, Keen-serts, Helicoils.... Spirals, thin-walls, thick-walls. I've used the thin-wall Time-serts with great success for repairs to engine block threads for brackets and the likes.
would LOVE to see various TTY headbolts Nissan Juke, Volvo, Audi/Volkwagon, and others. Or even TTY bolts in general. Many are used in european car suspension
As a rule of thumb, bolts are used in street/daily driver engines and studs in engines that will be disassembled regularly i.e. performance/competition engines because they speed up disassembly and reassembly while torqueing more consistently.
Your channel is pure gold! This was the most fascinating one yet. Nice to see where my money went when I used ARP on my last engine build. I'm super impressed!
Very informative!!! Great test!! That answers alot of questions for us car guys/engine abusers who wonder if saving a couple bucks at build time is really worth it in the long run!! Keep the content coming! GREAT JOB!!!!
Would be interesting to see 625+ arp studs as well. In the crazy stuff we upgrade to custom 14mm arp studs. The bigger diameter gives more thread surface to allow more torque without pulling the threads out of the block.
Yes, I would definitely be interested in seeing the thread inserts tested, as well as some other studs such as the Jeg's studs that are made in the USA. Another interesting test might be with vs without thread locker holding the insert into the block.
Love the video, if you don't want to keep killing dial indicators you can use a flat plate that sticks past the edge of you hydraulic setup and put the indicator on the bottom. the amount it moves away from the indicator should be the same as it would be moving towards it on the top.
It was my understanding that bolting down a cylinder head is analogous to using great big springs to hold the head to the block, and you want the bolts to stretch. Utilizing the yield point is a means of achieving more consistent clamping force, as you can turn the bolt an extra 1/8 turn and/or get significantly different torque readings and achieve a similar amount of clamping from one bolt to the other. The friction factor varies much too much at high clamping loads to use twisting torque as a means of measuring how much clamping force the bolt is exerting. However, the bolts can be manufactured consistently enough to where they all yield at very similar clamping loads. Anyone who has done enough head jobs can attest to how some bolts take massive amounts of force to achieve that final 1/4 turn while others achieve that 1/4 turn much easier. If you used a torque wrench to do this, just imagine how much clamping force variation you would have. But if you turn the fastener 1/4 turn, it is going to stretch the same and clamp the same.
I was too busy to help a buddy rebuild a supercharged old style 350. His "expert" that helped him thought his zz4 heads had 76cc chambers and bought the wrong pistons. He drove it for 2 weeks but always heard weird knocking, so we took it back out and tore it down. First piston all the lands fell out in my hand after the piston came out the bore, so we knew big problems. Guess he got the kit from comp cams, so he called them and gave them all part numbers to figure out what was up. The comp cams tech estimated he had 16:1 static compression and was curious if the pistons had struck the zz4 heads. I don't know how it didn't grenade but long story short, IF HE HADN'T USED ARP HEAD STUDS I GUARANTEE IT WOULD HAVE BLOWN THE HEAD GASKETS FIRST DAY.
Torque to yield was to remove the compression under the cap to shaft region. A Cap screw is compressed to form the head. Therefore the grains are compressed too. Studs were produced to counter the compressing factor in cap screws. Long linear grains undisturbed are much stronger. Still the preferred method for ultimate available strength.
A friend of mine had a LS3 built for his 68 Camaro at 500hp and a 150 shot of nitrous. A mechanic put it together with quality parts....and reused the stock head bolts. First time he pressed the NOS button the heads lifted, engine made soup. Back to the shop it went. Different mechanic.
One of the important things to consider with studs versus bolts is that studs engage all of the threads in the block; bolts do not. And that is why studs can hold more force before failing when installed properly.
Interesting on the slow motion how the indicator tip accelerates faster than the fastener pushing it up. As fun as it was to watch you murder a bunch of indicators, next time you might want to rig up a 1:1 "teeter totter" lever with one end on the fastener moving up and the indicator tip on the other end of the lever, moving down. This way when the fastener fails, the indicator tip is extending and the indicator is out of the killing zone. Interesting info and video, thanks.
When I worked at a engine rebuilding shop their was a diesel Kubota engine once where the head was held on by hardware store bolts and the head was super warped
Very good and educational video all the tests that I try to measure in my head now tested with accuracy. Appreciate your work and I’m very grateful for it.
Very impressive. Worked in aerospace industry as a machinist for 40 years before retirement. Had a number of classes on fasteners and bolts over the years. It's an interesting subject. I did shed a few tears on those indicators though. But hey I destroyed a handful of them over the years.
I was disappointed they didn't put a bar above the block to prevent the sudden jump. Once the plunger is mashed into the body, they don't work nearly as smooth.
I’ve got an idea how to save your dial indicators, make a lever on a stand with base with exact distances on either side of the pivot point, use a spring to pull down on the bolt side lever arm creating tension so you can put your dial indicator on the other end, zero the indicator out and as the bolt stretches pushing up on the lever arm it will make the indicator side go down which will read into the negative, but when the bolt fails and shoots up it will only hit the lever arm which will in turn move the lever arm down on the indicator or side saving it from exploding.
TIME-SERTS kick ass . Saved me during a rebuild. Didn’t discover I had stripped head bolt threads until I went to torque down the heads , very inconvenient. But they work people ! Worth the money
I replaced my Ford 6.0L diesel factory Torq to yield head bolts with Xotic Performance head studs. 1/2 the cost of ARP and they work great. Now if you are going to use power adders and increase boost maybe you should dump a $700 on ARP head studs, not necessary if you keep it factory.
Find episode 2 here testing myths, used head bolts, and $$$ ARP 625 studs: th-cam.com/video/0b2B6AUzYtw/w-d-xo.html
See how much plastic deformation of the head after initial heat cycle actually happens. Athena says for example not to retorque. I know tuners and racers who have had the gasket fail if they didn’t retorque. And those cars are pretty serious.
Also do one on the 3 step torque procedure, compared to one step. Another channel said 3 step like arp says reduces the clamp load.
Also test arp’s at a higher initial preload. Their ratings are supposedly 75%. There is another head stud manufacturer in the diesel world. Loved seeing the pqy. Would love to see more options, just because ARP prices have only gone up, availability gone down. Personally I just re installed my heads with 1/2” standard arp studs at 129-130 each, on the whole shot. Surprised I didn’t strip the aluminum block 🤣
Not a cylinder head bolt myth but I've heard that a bolt only needs 3 full threads turns engaged with a nut etc to exceed the tensile strength of the body of the bolt i.e. the bolt body will stretch before failure of the threads of the bolt or nut. Any chance you could test that?
Same test on a well used head bolt
Do I need to send some?
Although I wouldn't say 24 hours is necessary, an hour or so is how long I wait when using copper head gaskets. The nuts will generally drop from around 90 ft. Lbs to around 75-80 ft. Lbs at the head of the fastener
Now you're all set to do a broken stud remover test.
RIP to all the indicators. Your service has not gone unnoticed.
Let's all take a moment to appreciate their service
@@TorqueTestChannel takes off hat and bows head.
@@TorqueTestChannel I am thankful they were not mitutoyo's.
@@nwngunner So is the channel's wallet :D
@@TorqueTestChannel That's no joke.
This channel is quickly becoming the hardware test variant of Project Farm in the amount dedication and attention to detail, I love it. On behalf of all the subscribers, please Keep it up, and thank you. 👍 👍
I'm definitely curious about thread inserts (time-sert specifically considering they're advertised for engine repair).
10-4. Working on it
A fan of the northstar I see! XD
And Heli Coil too, please.
Keenserts as well
@@TorqueTestChannel One last suggestion for an insert to test is the Fredsert insert.
I can't believe the amount of work that goes into this channel. Such a great service to us gear heads and tool fanatics!
Agreed
Really cool test with off the shelf test equipment! At work (for a large diesel manufacturer), we've put in a lot of research to bolted joints and have some info that may be helpful here. The dial indicator was solid, in industry we grind the tops and bottoms of each bolt, and measure the stretch with an ultrasonic gauge (MC900), and correlate that to a tensile test to get actual preload.
Bolt preload with a torque only torque procedure is typically accurate to +/- 30% using the same fastener design with the same threads and same coating... different coatings can influence the friction factor of the threads by typically 30-50% as well, which further compounds the error from a straight torque. different tensile diameters (like parts that have a waisted or turned down shank) will also vary the preload for the same thread size. In a straight torque joint, preload is directly proportional to the total friction coefficient times the torque applied, with the grip length (distance from the underhead surface of the bolt to the first engaged thread) being independent with no contribution.
+/-30% is pretty excessive, so on more clamp load sensitive joints, we implement a torque+angle, non torque to yield (TTY). In these joints, about 1/3rd of the preload comes from the straight torque, with the resultant preload coming from the fixed displacement of the threads. This means that bolt friction only contributes to that 30% error to the first 1/3rd of preload.
The difficult part of this though is that because it's a fixed displacement, the distance that displacement occurs over (the grip length) does matter. For the same angle of displacement, the shorter the grip length, the higher the preload in the bolt. This means that in this test, variation in the ram height, and moving from the thick block of aluminum to the thin block all affected the amount of stretch in the bolts when you used the torque+angle torque procedures called out by the manufacturers.
If you need to control preload distribution tighter, that's where torque to yield (TTY) comes in. We can typically get to a +/-5% range with these fasteners, especially with yield sensing torque spindles. Again these torque+angle procedures are still sensitive to grip length, but because you're working in a different area of the stress/strain (or torque/angle) curve, they're a little less sensitive.
Great work, and feel free to reach out with any bolt questions, especially as far as materials, coatings etc. go, and their effects on fastener absolute strength or fatigue strength... you've officially just scratched the surface!
This is fascinating to read, thanks for writing.
Thank you for this in depth explanation. Amazing the amount of manufacturing and expertise that goes into something as ubiquitous as a bolt
@Peter Angles I work with many NASA engineers. What center are they from?
I had a head gasket blow on an 1.6L ecotec and I was in a pinch so I went down to my local nut and bolt supply and bought 17 12.9 grade bolts and two nuts. Used the two nuts and the 17th bolt in a vice to "measure" how much torque it took to snap the bolt. I believe it was like 370 ft lb. Set the torque wrench to 300 and one by one removed the old bolts from the head and reinstalled the 12.9's at 300 ftlb. I don't care what anyone says. It worked, I went from being 120 PSI down in two of four of the cylinders to being 185 on all cylinders. The car hasn't seen a lot of miles since because catalytic converter stolen but suffice it to say hardware store can save your ass sometimes.
I'm more surprised you didn't strip the threads out of the block than the gasket sealing. Lol
You could have just stopped after the word “ecotec”. No further need to continue.
Would love to see helicoil inserts tested! Use them all the time at work to fix stripped out threads in 6061-T6 aluminum in automation equipment and always wondered if they're equal, worse or better than the original threads. Great work as always!
Should be stronger
usually stronger. We've used them all the time for highly stressed threads holes when manufacturing newly designed parts.
I’ve seen timeserts blow out of ford modular engines with the plugs on them
@@thrownchance I generally assumed stronger, but never had the data to back it up, and by how much it was. Also generally never had problems with threads bigger than M6 or so in aluminum, its always been the small screws, particularly M2.5's and M3's or fine thread #4 and #6 series SAE screws from technicians over-tightening them.
Maybe even a helicoil vs a timesert
To save the dial-indicator you could rotate it 180c, and measure how much it's moving upwards. And ofc something which sticks out on the "cylinder head" to measure against. Then upon breaking, it would hopefully jump upwards away from the dial-indicator.
exactly the same thought!
Fact-check: true. They listened to you for the next video. :)
Rivet nuts in varying sizes and materials would be interesting to see as well! As often as I use them to replace bolt and nut mounted equipment on bucket trucks, I have to say, they seem to hold up better when confronted by repeated operator errors 😂
Like huck bolts? Or something else?
@@randyruppel6727 it's basically a rivet without a center pin. In place of the pin is a threaded sleeve that crumples a bit to bulge inside of a blind hole and create the effect of a tapped hole.
Ah yeah I'm familiar. Similar to what we call nut-serts.
Rivnuts are handy, but they'll never have the gripping power of a threaded hole, so you have to be careful how much load you expect them to carry.
@@chuckschillingvideos in sheet metal up to .25 inch thick, I have always found that rivnuts are almost always stronger than threading the base material esp. when dealing with fine thread applications.
I design and test head bolts like this for all of the major OEs. Uniformity of clamp load is by far the most important factor when attempting to seal a head gasket surface like this. Max clamp load sound sexy but that's not what generates long term reliable performance. TTY is your friend.
What would be your recommendation then? I'm planning on rebuilding the DOHC 4.6L 4v in my 2004 SVT Cobra soon and will be running factory ported heads and custom cams.
@@Digr2108 I'm not an engine builder, I'm a fastener guy. So the question I'm going to ask is Will factory style TTY head bolts survive in your application? If that's the case, and you're not me spitting out head gaskets, that's absolutely what I would run with. When you make the jump to studs it's a huge compromise on clamp load uniformity but you're doing race car things so you give up a lot to make that extra power.
With a mild to medium non boosted build like that I would think the factory TTY head bolts would be just fine. Make sure everything is flat and true, I've seen guys struggle because they've got warped heads or a warped deck and they're upset at the fastener in the gasket.
@@otm646 thats the whole deal between studs vs tty
You get waaaay more clamping load with studs, but no clamping range in the working load range
Its like a small rubber band vs a long one, both exert the same amount of force at full extension, but one is 3" long and one is 12" long
So when you lose 12% on the long one, you still have plenty of clamping load, but the small one with a 12% loss of length will be damn near loose
Tty would be fine if they would upsize the bolts one size
@@Digr2108 I have been building big power 4cyl cars for many years. What most get wrong is surface finish. Most head gaskets require a specific RA or roughness average to seal correctly. Composites are great when surface finish is not perfect. From my experience a L19 or 625+ will usually take about all you throw at it, its the gasket and surface finish that lets you down. I have sense gone to play with O rings cut into the cylinder head and back with composite head gaskets. But i have used metal layer gaskets with L19's to well above 45psi. These are on cars with 10:1 compression 122CI and turbos in the 64mm-68mm range. I have also seen guys think torquing Studs to well above recommended is good idea but on Cast block with aluminum head i have found that to make it worse as it flex's the head more then help.
@@narmale Studs or bolts are irrelevant. The property class of the material used is the only thing that matters given the same length. You can manufacture TTY studs, I've designed them.
The issue you run into is when you're running 200 KSI materials is that you've traded so much ductility for that tensile performance you get an extraordinary narrow window between yield and fracture. In a factory property class head bolt you've got a relatively large zone between yield and fracture which allows for TTY to even exist and also gives you a much more uniform clamp load.
When you're running studs that aren't supposed to be yielded it's very difficult to reach that uniform clamp load because of the slope rate you're at, fractions of a degree on your torque angle procedure influenced clamp load dramatically.
Factory head bolts get reused on a lot of budget builds. Would love to see the same test on a used OEM bolt.
Lore is that stretched old OEM LS headbolts get stronger after a normal lifetime of heat cycles, that fella on TH-cam Driveway Engineer talked about it in one of his videos and there were limks to tests people did but I don't feel like digging for them lol
I worked at a construction company and they changed the nut and bolt supplier. I was using 1/4 -20 bolts and I snapped 3 out of 12 off, and I was just snugging them up. They held the cutting wheel on a asphalt cutting that would be mounted on the front backhoe bucket. I said something to the other mechanics and they hadn't had any issues yet. I drilled out the brokens and the boss went to replace them. He thought I was over tightening them. Well he snapped 2 of them off and only had one hand on the ratchet and was just over what we considered snug. They were marked grade 8 however they were not even close to the older bolts that we found in the back of the bin. All in all it was good that it was cought before they started being used to bolt on fifth wheels on the trucks or for suspension work. Someone got to go through all of the NC and NF stuff and pick out all the new style nuts and bolts. I'm not sure how things ended up after they confronted the place about it.
You probably got a lot that was surface treated incorrectly, overheated and made brittle.
I've run into this using some OEM John Deere bolts brand new. Went to torque them to factory spec and they just stretched and broke. Swapped them out for same grade bolts out of our shop bolt bin and those worked perfectly. Always cautious of JD bolts now
This situation goes on with a lot of things the last few years. They manufacture out of scrap metal to only make stuff up to code but their batches vary a lot, whereas old stuff exceeds the rate and are pure aloys of what is being used.
These "For Science" videos are fantastic
Use a block that overhangs the hydraulic ram and set the indicator up on the underside of it. It will last much longer that way and still measure the bolt stretch.
The ARP2000 bolts were suprizing. I've used them before being cheaper but not thought about using them on a really high powered job. Impressive
You missed the most important bolt...
The 'sloppy mechanics' special. A stock head bolt that has been heat cycled and forged for 300k miles.
We had a customer use generic aftermarket studs in a mustang 5.0 coyote. We had it on the engine stand and literally shot a stud past my head 30 minutes after it was torqued down. It went up to the second level and through the back of a cabinet. We found it in the cabinet. Scary as hell. I can see easily when you calculate the estimated 100mph or faster flying passed your head.
Last year while gathering everything for a cam swap/dod delete i came across this choice, given how i had already spent close to 1k in parts up to that point and how the 6.2 Chevy LS cost far more than ARP bolts the choice was obvious. There are things that can jeopardize a complete build when you choose to save a few dollars(literally), after that decision i went back and purchased BTR pushrods to avoid using the no-name rods i had purchased earlier.
It looks like all the dial indicators were harmed in the making of this video. Thanks again for tickling the nerd bone
Duh. It was a joke.
To save yourself on dial indicators, make a simple little one-to-one ratio pivot with a light spring pulling down on one side, put the sprung end on the top of the cylinder head, and then put the tip of the dial indicator on the other end so that the dial indicator is always reading down and then when there is failure the dial indicator will not receive an impact. And since the pivot is one to one it will still give you an accurate reading.
It's wild that this video pops up in my feed this morning, as I just received a set of head studs for my engine build and was doing lots of research into ARP2000, L19, and aged 625
What's most impressive to me is the fact that the cheapo amazon ones are actually pretty competent for someone going for ultra low budget upgrades. The only unknown would be the consistency of manufacturing.
Speaking from experience here. Had one of the cheap amazon/ ebay sold chinese ARP knock offs fail (they all seem the same with a different name on them). Torqued to ARP specs with a trusted torque wrench. The first head went fine halfway through the second one failed well short of fully tight. Buyer beware!
Yes not something I'm willing to take a gamble on considering how relatively cheap studs are.
If on a budget just go with oe.
@@toyorover1313 Agree, OE if replacing as it is consistent and never had any issues like normal build.
I got a set of Speed Pro brand cheapies on eBay for my LT1 SBC build. Looking forward to seeing how they do.
12:14 - Quick note. There is "detonation" and there is "pre-ignition" which are both distinct, different phenomenon in a gasoline internal combustion engine with distinct failure modes and solutions. But there is no "pre-detonation". Unless you were trying to cover both terms with one.
Pre-ignition is when the air/fuel mixture is ignited BEFORE the spark plug fires, often due to a (sharp) hot-spot in the cylinder, or an over-all high temperature due to a dynamic compression ratio that's too high. It only takes one or a few of these events to completely destroy an engine, create holes in the block, etc. as all of the mixture is ignited at the wrong time, and the cylinder is still rising.
The solution for this is to avoid sharp spots in the combustion chamber, use adequate octane fuel, and adequate temperature spark plugs (so the electrode doesn't become a source of pre-ignition).
Detonation is when the air/fuel mixture has already been set alight by the spark plug and the flame front is propagating, increasing the dynamic compression on the unburned air/fuel mixture remaining in the combustion chamber. Eventually the remainder of the unburned fuel ignites all at once instead of in a controlled burn, spiking cylinder pressures and damaging (pitting) piston heads, cylinder walls, and poppet valves. An engine can survive many, many detonation (AKA knock) events compared to pre-ignition before any major damage is done to the engine and failure modes are much more gradual. This is because only a small amount of the mixture is ignited at the wrong time and the cylinder is almost always traveling back downward at this time.
The solution for this is to ignite the mixture appropriately late in the cycle, use adequate octane fuel, avoid octane reducing PCV systems if possible, and be aware of static and dynamic cylinder pressures.
GG grammar nazi
Hi Ben! Haha fancy seeing you here
Small world! :D
You should 3D print ( or soft aluminium) a small flat bracket for the indicators, with a break away notch. You can use a screw in the rod with a 4-48 screw, and offset the indicator out of the "kill zone"
As a racing engine builder, the decision you talked about in the beginning of the video is a daily thing for me. I appreciate the work yall put into your videos!
Thanks for making a video I suggested! I appreciate all your hard work!
Appreciate you guys suggesting them!
I've done bolt tensile/stretch failure studies utilizing a jig and an instrumented press, the sound from even the small ones would make everyone in the area jump, wish I could have watched you guys running this in person
I used to use an Instron for testing/breaki carbon fiber. We had an shop alarm that would go off before testing just to prepare people for the "BANG!"
i am glad i brought ARP head stud kit for my turbo subaru !
Great work gents, I have some input about the dial indicators, if you would have a washer larger then the slug of cast iron or like you ran the test on the shorter bolts, you could have run the indicator upside down and compressed it and read the measurements on the way out and not ruined all those dial indicators! Bolts really are for accountants and studs are for engineers...
Some starving child in africa could have eaten that dial indicator!!!11!!!!!!1!!!!
Tastes a few mm off.
Thread inserts would be an interesting video. My dad would always use HeliCoils and I never thought they could hold up to a good tapped thread, but in a pinch they always seemed to work, after that I was wondering about the theoretical max load of rivnuts.
A correctly installed helicoil is stronger than the original thread.
Helicoils are used a lot in aerospace.
Here's a good test for you, the LS crank bolt is debated as to whether it needs to be replaced after being used once, the manual shows it's a tty bolt but many people reuse it, would be really cool if you tested the stretch the stock bolt makes after being installed at the manuals torque specs 👍 great video
Imagine removing a TTY crank bolt and deciding to reuse it rather than spend the little amount for a replacement lol. Always replace a TTY bolt, even if people get away with reusing them why take that risk over a couple bucks? If you take out a used LS crank bolt and put it next to a new one, the stretch will be obvious! Safe than sorry
@@novinnovations4026 I have people telling me by compaing a used TTY bolt with a new one there is no difference. People thought bolts are rubber band, they can simply see the strain.
@@Align700nitrothat is a lie, I have a used LS3 Crankshaft bolt and a new one in my garage. The used one is thinner and the thread pitch is stretched out where the bolt yielded. It is obvious to the naked eye. Later I might make a short to show you the stretch.
Xotics are being used now in some LB7 Duramax racing applications, but many are still unsure about them. I would love to see them go head to head....pun intended
Can you do a test where you torque the bolts to spec and then wait 24 hours and torque again to see if they move further (like they relaxed and loosened)? I saw a video one time where a guy would consistently get ~1/8th turn next day.
Agreed
Really fantastic tests guys. Loved this. Yes please on thread inserts.
For all but the most extreme Applications the Felpro seems like a very good bet as had lowest extension just prior to yield, the OEM bolt had nearly double the exentsion at the same tensile load, but would need to see at least a full set of each tested to see if there really is a consistent difference.
I think that this is a great advertisement for the $60 Chinesium PQY Racing Studs, especially targeted at those guys that attempt to re-use their OEM Head Bolts. Obviously not a replacement or even competitor for anything ARP, but priced and strength proven to be better than OEM. Great Info.
Be careful drawing conclusions from this testing. There are so many factors that go into the design of threaded connections. Thermal expansion, head material and thickness, head gasket material and thickness, block material, lubrication, anti-rotation features and more all effect the clamping load and the bolt stretch. You have shown that stronger bolts break at higher loads, this was already known. I would caution against saying that stronger bolts = less head lift, they are likely correlated but it is not always the case.
Would love to see this retested with bolts heated to simulate operating temperature of engine
I have arp2000 on mine, it's a 14 mil 12-point socket. I have 24 of them holding my head on and my turbos produce around 100 PSI at the manifold with wide open throttle
Use a large washer/ring and put it somewhere on the setup, then measure from under the washer with the dial indicator. When it breaks, all the flying parts go AWAY from your dial indicator...Basically you preload the indicator then unload it as the bolt stretches.
You could also do a lever thingy, with a 1:1 ratio, and measure on the other side of the lever (one side touching the bolt, other side meant for the indicator). In this case you measure from above as you did in this video, but since you are not measuring the bolt but the other side of the lever, it again goes AWAY from the indicator.
Hope this helps or comes in handy for future tests ;)
Kind regards, M
measuring from under was my first thought, it was sad to see the indicators destroyed, but hopefully they see this comment so next time they can spare some money on equipment
You could do an extractor episode with all those broken bolts ya have now also.
My dad told me about an old racer's trick a while ago when we were building the engine for my truck and I would be curious if there is any merit to it. Basically you torque the head bolt down, then hit it with a hammer to "shock" it and take the twist out of it, then torque it again and you get more toque out of it.
Another note worthy plus of studs over bolts is they put the tension on the nut instead of the threads in the block. Which in an aluminum block, the steel nut will handle much more than cast aluminum threads
I've not read 'all' the comments, so forgive me if it's a repeated suggestion, but you may be able to save a few pennies on indicators if you invert the indicator and indicate off of a tab that's affixed to the head of the fastener. Then when it lets go, it just takes off and the proboscis of the indicator just extends to its functional limit unharmed.
How you affix the tab to the head of the screw is TBD . . . Quick epoxy, super glue, hot glue?
I know to test oem button caps and dials we often "glue" tabs or shafts to them to get linear displacement numbers.
Love the channel.
As a machinist this pains me to see indicators being launched into low orbit lmao, great video guys as always.
Not so much with WEN $15 Chinese indicators, If they were Starret of B&S I probably would have turned it off.
They were junk indicators. They will make more.
Very interesting. Just to let you know, I believe you made a small mistake in the strength calculations, that resulted in strength numbers a bit lower than they should be.
The mistake is in calculating the tensile stress area of the bolt/stud. This should be done based on the average of the minor diameter and the pitch diameter. For an M11x1.5 that results in a tensile area of 72.3 mm^2 (0.112 in^2).
That means the OEM 10.9 studs for example have a strength of 163 ksi rather than your figure of 145. Likewise, the ARP2000 is 226+ vs 201+, the L9 at 236+ vs 230+ and the PQY at 188 vs 167. Likewise for the rest. Not a big deal, but it puts the results more in line with the specifications.
Yes, thread inserts please! And also do them in aluminum heads. And also compare them to welding the hole closed in an aluminum head and re tapping
this was pretty awesome and honestly I use ARP bolts when building either stock or mild engines when I built my 12.5:1 compression Honda g23 I used arp studs and they were expensive and that was 5 years ago I can't imagine what they cost now but my 350 horsepower Ford 302 has ARP bolts and I've re-torqued them three times, three different sets of heads no problems whatsoever
Great info man. I coulda sent you 6 different styles of those honda studs.
This must be the best "bolt" porn on the net! Seriously I have once again learned a lot more and think back of times we re done heads only to see them fail again. No proper engine tuner could look past this channel! Perhaps give them dials a good grave yard.
This video was right up my alley. I used to have all this in a class at school years ago, some mechanics also were explaining this to me, bo now seeing this video all became crystal clear. Next video I will watch is yours about bolt grades.
I think a similar test of connecting rod bolts would be interesting. There are lots of opinions out there about what are the best. My theory is the difference is not necessarily material, it is that some bolt manufacturers use alternate thread profiles, e.g. UNJ instead of UNF. Would be cool to see real data. It was interesting to see all failures occurred within the treads, just where they should!
Thanks for a great video as always! It would be interesting to see a similar test with lug nuts.
I think in some countries as well as the NHRA, the studs need one widths amount of length sticking out from the lug nut. Does that really make a difference?
Do open or capped lugs hold better? Do steel wheels hang on better than aluminum wheels?
Also, so lug nuts hold better than lug studs?
Aaaah drag racing. Have 1/2 or more of stud outside the nuts,,,, dumb dumb and dumber. You do not need any more than a full nut of thread. The rest is doing NOTHING!!
A std nut v a closed end one? A longer thread may help clamping very marginally. Maybe!
A nut is better than a stud,, what are they thinking!! Lik Mopars with LH thread on the left! Dumb
Done up properly alloy or steel, it makes no difference. Left loose however alloy frets and ultimatly comes loose. Steel is better. Though do the nuts up and no issue.
Thought threads past nut was three for us. High pressure stuff steam gas etc with torque in the 2-3 thousands range.
I assume you may be a car guy haha, I would love to see this test in 1/2 inch to see how much advantage they actually offer over stock size
No one would sell 1pc! Plus it appears we'd just max this setup
@@TorqueTestChannel I'll send you one! Though I think Brian tooley racing sales individuals
OK...if you don't want to kill as many indicators the next time, build a small hinged lever to indicate off of (essentially a see saw). Make the ratio of the sides 1:1 or some other factor if you like. But when the load side breaks free and up, it drives the opposite (indicated) side of the lever down and away from the piston on the dial. Speaking for a friend....
You can run a Honda for a long time on grade 8…. Also you take your stretched turbo head studs out and they work fine for ever on NA applications……
I have no life
“It was just lying there, on the floor.”
Shut up bro
fr @@john-martin
Thanks for the video! I know you put a lot of effort into it. I have used all types of cylinder head bolts from ARP to knock off brands. I always wondered about the strength difference you guys helped answer that question. One note to others, it's very important on how you prepare your bolt. When adding lube, or Teflon sealer it can really change the pressure when torquing the bolt making it stretch beyond the desired limit. So, be sure to install your bolts as dry as possible and with clean threads. If you have to use Teflon sealer use it sparingly. Also ARP lube is the most consistent over regular oil, or other forms of grease. Thanks again!
Dang TTC! Just when I think this channel is running out of material you guys hit a home run! I'm really into it. I'm definitely with the above comments about time-sert, I'd like to see how those perform. Great job as always and I'd like to see some more merch come out for your channel. The t-shirts are awesome ;) (hat's wound be awesome!)
Omfg thank you I searched for a video like this a few months back and got mad no one had made a video yet but there’s been 100,000+ engines built with upgraded bolts and studs.
You did a great job with this. You may want to consider torquing to a given bolt stretch. Coatings, lubricants and variations in manufacture can have a significant effect on preload vs applied torque. Joint failure actually occurs once preload is exceeded at that point you basically have zero preload on the gasket. Normally these fasteners in this application would be fatigue tested with cyclic load applied to a preloaded Joint. Basically your higher strength bolts are installed at a higher preload to prevent Joint separation. Again good job it gets people thinking about what they are paying for.
Time-serts, Keen-serts, Helicoils....
Spirals, thin-walls, thick-walls. I've used the thin-wall Time-serts with great success for repairs to engine block threads for brackets and the likes.
As the gauges get hammered, I’m hearing the Hindenburg news guy saying… “oh the humanity of it all!?”
And I could hear the manufacturer/supplier going
ka-ching😄
would LOVE to see various TTY headbolts
Nissan Juke, Volvo, Audi/Volkwagon, and others.
Or even TTY bolts in general. Many are used in european car suspension
As a rule of thumb, bolts are used in street/daily driver engines and studs in engines that will be disassembled regularly i.e. performance/competition engines because they speed up disassembly and reassembly while torqueing more consistently.
Your channel is pure gold! This was the most fascinating one yet. Nice to see where my money went when I used ARP on my last engine build. I'm super impressed!
Really enjoy this. Something new, educational, and putting brands to their claims. 👍👍
Very informative!!! Great test!!
That answers alot of questions for us car guys/engine abusers who wonder if saving a couple bucks at build time is really worth it in the long run!!
Keep the content coming! GREAT JOB!!!!
Would be interesting to see 625+ arp studs as well. In the crazy stuff we upgrade to custom 14mm arp studs. The bigger diameter gives more thread surface to allow more torque without pulling the threads out of the block.
625+ can handle a lot of turbo boost... much more than the arp2000
Thread insert challenge would be awesome 21:19 @Torque Test Channel
Yes, I would definitely be interested in seeing the thread inserts tested, as well as some other studs such as the Jeg's studs that are made in the USA.
Another interesting test might be with vs without thread locker holding the insert into the block.
th-cam.com/video/NZItuPnU7lU/w-d-xo.html
Would love to see the same test with bolts that are 300°F
They're entirely correct. No dial INDICTORS were harmed. However, the dial INDICATORS are another story.
JC gets the bonus point. We're just havin fun with it, ya know? :P
Great idea for a video!! You guys deserve WAYYYYY more subs than you have currently!! Thanks for all the info you've given us
Love the video, if you don't want to keep killing dial indicators you can use a flat plate that sticks past the edge of you hydraulic setup and put the indicator on the bottom. the amount it moves away from the indicator should be the same as it would be moving towards it on the top.
Yep I came here to say this!
very cool thanks ttc and yes thread inserts would be wicked cool
Love it that you are car people. We are a special kind of breed.
It was my understanding that bolting down a cylinder head is analogous to using great big springs to hold the head to the block, and you want the bolts to stretch. Utilizing the yield point is a means of achieving more consistent clamping force, as you can turn the bolt an extra 1/8 turn and/or get significantly different torque readings and achieve a similar amount of clamping from one bolt to the other. The friction factor varies much too much at high clamping loads to use twisting torque as a means of measuring how much clamping force the bolt is exerting. However, the bolts can be manufactured consistently enough to where they all yield at very similar clamping loads.
Anyone who has done enough head jobs can attest to how some bolts take massive amounts of force to achieve that final 1/4 turn while others achieve that 1/4 turn much easier. If you used a torque wrench to do this, just imagine how much clamping force variation you would have. But if you turn the fastener 1/4 turn, it is going to stretch the same and clamp the same.
Never seen thread-lock on a head bolt. Great video thanks.
Rather than destroying indicators, do a hinge which will run the indicator in a negative Motion rather than pushing INTO the indicator.
I was too busy to help a buddy rebuild a supercharged old style 350. His "expert" that helped him thought his zz4 heads had 76cc chambers and bought the wrong pistons. He drove it for 2 weeks but always heard weird knocking, so we took it back out and tore it down. First piston all the lands fell out in my hand after the piston came out the bore, so we knew big problems.
Guess he got the kit from comp cams, so he called them and gave them all part numbers to figure out what was up. The comp cams tech estimated he had 16:1 static compression and was curious if the pistons had struck the zz4 heads.
I don't know how it didn't grenade but long story short, IF HE HADN'T USED ARP HEAD STUDS I GUARANTEE IT WOULD HAVE BLOWN THE HEAD GASKETS FIRST DAY.
Torque to yield was to remove the compression under the cap to shaft region. A Cap screw is compressed to form the head. Therefore the grains are compressed too. Studs were produced to counter the compressing factor in cap screws. Long linear grains undisturbed are much stronger. Still the preferred method for ultimate available strength.
You guys are just crushing it with the great content, never stop.
A test for the diesel guys. Arp 2000, xotic, opti lube, and now ppe also 625, and xotic xp2’s
A friend of mine had a LS3 built for his 68 Camaro at 500hp and a 150 shot of nitrous. A mechanic put it together with quality parts....and reused the stock head bolts. First time he pressed the NOS button the heads lifted, engine made soup. Back to the shop it went. Different mechanic.
One of the important things to consider with studs versus bolts is that studs engage all of the threads in the block; bolts do not. And that is why studs can hold more force before failing when installed properly.
You could always put the indicator on the bottom of the "head" with .1 preload so you destroy fewer indicators.
Interesting on the slow motion how the indicator tip accelerates faster than the fastener pushing it up. As fun as it was to watch you murder a bunch of indicators, next time you might want to rig up a 1:1 "teeter totter" lever with one end on the fastener moving up and the indicator tip on the other end of the lever, moving down. This way when the fastener fails, the indicator tip is extending and the indicator is out of the killing zone. Interesting info and video, thanks.
Good video, thanks for doing it. You really helped me out about me selecting the bolts I'm going to use.
When I worked at a engine rebuilding shop their was a diesel Kubota engine once where the head was held on by hardware store bolts and the head was super warped
Very good and educational video all the tests that I try to measure in my head now tested with accuracy.
Appreciate your work and I’m very grateful for it.
The dial indicators all getting broke is admirable but also extremely hilarious.lol great video
as you kept increasing the pressure. i found myself scooting back into my seat. Safety squints activated.
Very impressive. Worked in aerospace industry as a machinist for 40 years before retirement. Had a number of classes on fasteners and bolts over the years. It's an interesting subject. I did shed a few tears on those indicators though. But hey I destroyed a handful of them over the years.
I was disappointed they didn't put a bar above the block to prevent the sudden jump. Once the plunger is mashed into the body, they don't work nearly as smooth.
This is the answers to the questions I never had but should of asked, thank you sir for this awesome video
I’ve got an idea how to save your dial indicators, make a lever on a stand with base with exact distances on either side of the pivot point, use a spring to pull down on the bolt side lever arm creating tension so you can put your dial indicator on the other end, zero the indicator out and as the bolt stretches pushing up on the lever arm it will make the indicator side go down which will read into the negative, but when the bolt fails and shoots up it will only hit the lever arm which will in turn move the lever arm down on the indicator or side saving it from exploding.
Oh that intro... thank you.
I was expecting something along the lines of "the following is exceptionally dangerous, do not attempt".
TIME-SERTS kick ass . Saved me during a rebuild. Didn’t discover I had stripped head bolt threads until I went to torque down the heads , very inconvenient. But they work people ! Worth the money
I replaced my Ford 6.0L diesel factory Torq to yield head bolts with Xotic Performance head studs. 1/2 the cost of ARP and they work great. Now if you are going to use power adders and increase boost maybe you should dump a $700 on ARP head studs, not necessary if you keep it factory.