Airplane on the runway: Two Airplanes Narrowly Avoid COLLISION During Landing. REAL ATC
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.พ. 2025
- 22 AUGUST 2023
A LIFT Academy Diamond DA40 NG , registration N947L, performing flight
LTA947 from Indianapolis International Airport (KIND) was cleared to line-up
at runway 14 and wait at. After, ATC cleared two airplanes (LTA179 and LTA368)
to land on runway 14. When the LTA179 was about to cross the threshold at
about 800 feet (airport elevation is 797 feet), LTA947 informed the Tower that
they were still on the runway. ATC instructed approaching airplanes to go
around and LTA947 to vacate the runway.
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Its a very good thing that the pilot is more alert than the tower controller.
Are they though?
It’s teamwork.
It was a controller turn over and the guy forgot to tell the lady the guy in the runway
The pilot lined up for takeoff deserves credit for alerting the tower to his position when he heard the flights cleared to land. Tower appeared to not know they were there until the pilot called her. I’m sure he was getting a little nervous when they didn’t clear him for takeoff.
I get the impression you're a pilot from the terminology. There's a time and a place for communicating inside busy ATC frequencies. I feel his situational awareness correctly choose the fine line between being patient/waiting your turn/not prematurely hurrying ATC and realising two aircraft are now short final and genuine mistake has taken place. @@He11ums
Legend has it that 179 is still on the right downwind and flew off into the sunset, never to be seen again.
Can confirm. That DA40 is in Siberia at the moment.
The Earth is a sphere so he will make it back around to the airfield eventually. The question is, will ATC allow him make that left turn onto the downwind the second time around or not?
Might be the only time in his flying experience he was given a number to call from ATC that he was VERY glad to call. I was wondering if he was going to speak up. Great piloting.
I would have filed a complaint. If he hadn't spoken up on the radio, it could have been disastrous.
Note that he asked ATC for initials and she said we're not allowed to give them?
I'll uhhh, say this...not the first time for that instructor
@@DasKeebs you’re saying they have put him in danger before?
@@user-bf7vy3ub9c it's a training base, for pilots and controllers, mistakes are prone to happen on either end. That instructor has since gone to the regionals, but he had stories lol.
Immediate attitude after handing her a save so classy
I thought the same thing!
Men and women. We all have our bad sides. One bad side I have noticed with many women over and over is that total lack of self reflexion. It just doesn't cross their mind that they might be in the wrong. It's their idea, they are perfect, so it must be a good idea. Which to be honest can lead to problems in a job like this. But of course it doesn't go for all women. Such things never do. That goes without saying.
@@Dani-it5sy We all have our bad sides. One thing I've noticed is many men find fault over and over with women in traditional male roles like ATC and pilot because they just can't accept that women can do the same job. Of course, they won't admit it. They'll just say this is their observation. But anecdotal evidence is notorious for confirming our biases. We remember events that confirm our bias. We forget the rest. Of course, this isn't true of all men. That goes without saying.
Excellent situational awareness from the Lift 947 pilot.
Thankfully 🙏🏾 stopping the holes in the Swiss cheese model lining up ❤
Hm. One of my first solos, I was told to line up & wait. It was a couple of minutes for wake turbulence to clear, and kind of nerve wrecking to be sat there on the runway. I'd be extremely alert upon hearing "cleared to land" and would have immediately announced that I'm still lined up and waiting. The controller cleared not one but two planes before 947 spoke up.
Maybe the difference is that they'd never clear more than 1 plane at a time here; they may line up multiple ones for landing, but #2 never gets cleared before #1 has actually vacated the runway. If you have clearance and anything else gets cleared, you know for sure the ATC messed up somewhere.
I disagree. If 947 was sitting on the runway for "5 minutes" like he said, that is far too long to be sitting on the runway hoping something good happens, and is a failure to be assertive about safety. The AIM even indirectly suggests you should consider reminding ATC after less than 2 minutes
Was 947 waiting for tower to maybe give them clearance to Takeoff before the others landed maybe? But yeah, not a good feeling to sit on the runway like that.
I wonder if ATC got too busy with directing the two planes in the air towards the runway too tidily and forgot about 947 on the runway...
Some ATC are scary, others are heaven-sent.
No kidding. I know there's other traffic that's been trimmed out but they are making wayyy too much extra work for themselves.
@@brendonnashca there is no amount of traffic that makes this anything other than 2 controllers that should be fired before they get someone killed
"Possible controller deviation, I'm going to need your phone number."
1st controller completely forgot about the plane on rw14.
2nd controller thought 179's radio call was from 368 after stepping on his first call.
I just check recent satellite images and 947 is still holding short of HOTEL. RIP.
Kudos to the pilot on the runway for his situational awareness. We all need to be like that on the ground or in the air.
It’s the current state of the aviation industry, new controllers, new pilots, new mechanics, etc. Situational awareness is more important than ever these days.
And only few of them were hired based on competency.
@@Republic3D THIS. Obozo screwed us.
No! It’s not a matter of competence. Everyone is at risk of making a mistake. The problem here is the dangerous US practice of clearing multiple aircraft to use the same runway at the same time, without the ATC capacity and systems to manage that safely. We don’t do it outside the US. Just stop it already! 🤨
@@TheTransporter007many aren’t aware of his attempt to hire based solely on race. As a pilot I only hope they didn’t get thru the certification phase . We had one at our training tower here in the metro and they transferred her to San Diego one of the busiest towers around . She was a nice young lady but clueless
Do you expect pilots, controllers, mechanics, dispatchers, etc, to work forever? Or, oorrr, would you just rather everyone be born an expert just like you did?
the lift pilot, thumbs up for situational awareness
it is good to notice how atc wanted to blame the life pilot. it is always hard for them to admit mistakes i hate to say it but it is true.
i had something like this happen at LAX years ago, a southwest was cleared to land on the left side, was on very short final and atc cleared me to cross. if i was not paying attention i would have been hit by southwest. i told atc " no i am holding short, you cleared southwest to land on the left and he is short final" atc argued and southwest spoke up.
long story short. there are some wonderful people in ATC but yes at times their ego can get in the way of a few of them. we are all human and all make mistakes. when egos are left behind we all work together better, cover each other .
What are you hearing in the exchange that suggests ATC wants to blame Lift 947?
more i was reflecting on decades of experience, don't get me wrong there are wonderful people in atc. egos can be from both ends@@jqxok
@@jqxokThe tone of the second female tower controller’s voice highly suggests she is annoyed with the Lift 947 pilot for causing the disruption to the two landing planes, unaware it was her previous colleagues mistake for putting Lift 947 on the runway.
I teach students early to take that PIC authority to heart. It can save your life.
ATC forgot about him, and initially thought he landed and took forever to clear the runway, when it was clarified he wanted to take off I expect ATC realized it was her fault.
Unless things have changed: When there is an aircraft holding in position on the runway the controller is required to inform the landing aircraft that an acft is holding on the runway. Additionally when an acft is put into position and holding on the runway it is a requirement to inform that aircraft of the nearest acft on final. Controllers at LAX had time to do this when I worked there, so I don’t think the controllers at this airport were too busy to inform everyone of the situation. Poor management, poor training equals poor controllers.
In addition, you can't even clear somebody to land with somebody LUAW (or vice versa) unless the airport has the required safety equipment.
Indy really isn't that busy of an airport. If I'm right we are considered a medium sized airport.
He forgot about him with the flow change.
@@shelbysmith1826 Exactly - he's also required not to land planes on top of other planes lmao - he clearly forgot or we wouldn't be talking about this.
That's all fine and good when the controller is aware of the aircraft in position. In this case the controller completely forgot the plane on the runway.
Some people say they are still holding short of 14 at hotel.
Ha 😂
Probably searching for a new pair of shorts to change into.
just spat iut my breakfast laughing, well done :)
That's why it's called "hotel" :)
Suggestion: At airports where ATC are being trained your shift doesn't end until any aircraft cleared to line-up on the active have departed. If (for work-hour regulations) you expect not to be able to do that, you don't clear them to line-up in the first place.
Kind of like a public swimming pools where lifeguards don't change shifts until they both check the pool one more time!
That doesn't solve the problem if they forget about the plane. If they forget, they don't think there's another plane waiting. If they don't forget, none of this would happen.
@@wildgoose419 Ex ATC and current pilot, at any respectable airports we keep track of everyone using flight cards, physical pieces of card that we move around and write their clearances on. You can't just 'forget' if you've been following procedure, it'll show that theyve been cleared to line up and wait and their card is on the runway. It makes it incredibly obvious that when you clear someone to land, you go and move their card to the runway but oh wait, theres another card still on there!
Incredible patience on rhe part of LTA947
Poor pilots! They got completely forgotten about, then when they speak up they basically get scolded and told to get the heck off the runway without any taxiing instructions. “Just MOVE”
She wasn't scolding him. I'm sure she was pissed the other guy didn't tell her about him. It's really hard to see small airplanes on runways sometimes.
What a cluster. You're right good situational awareness.
In addition to leaving Lift 947 on the runway, the other Tower controller instructs L179 to fly a downwind for 14 then changes and gives him permission to land on 5L without any instructions on how to get there…even after he asks twice to make a left turn to put him on a right downwind. Instead she gives the other Lift very specific instructions for a left downwind approach for the same runway. This was a total ATC mess! 5:37
"Tower, mark and pull the tape for supervisor or FAA review." 🚩
Oh boy. This was a mess.
Why did the ATC give the 947 pilot a number?? It wasn't pilot deviation, it was an ATC workflow issue.
Exactly!
The pilot requested the number and the controller’s initials so HE could call them to file a complaint.
He still needs to talk to the tower as they both will be filing a report for this incident, but the pilot will be doing the bitching to tower and tower is 100% at fault.
they need to sort it out off frequency... you can't go through a play by play on tower frequency lol
It's not like the tower can just randomly call some pilot when they may or may not be on the ground or otherwise on duty, but they do still need some way to get their side of the story.
Lift 179 still didn’t get their question answered about the left turn for runway 5L. The video ended with their still heading to the north west assuming runway 14
Remember, AIM says to call ATC if you have been told to line up and wait and havent heard anything from tower for over 2 minutes! At the 2 minute point its likely they forgot about you
They act like it's the pilots fault for being on the runway, but she clearly said line up and wait, so this was on ATC not the pilot.
It was a different controller, it wasnt her initially
It’s still ATC’s fault for losing situational awareness. Zero excuse as to which controller dropped the ball. That’s what investigations are for.
You still give the pilot the number so that he can tell his side of the story. Giving the number is not about assigning blame. It's about getting all the facts.
Seems like there was an ATC shift change, and the new controller wasn't informed of the aircraft waiting on the runway?
Sounds like a trainee effed-up and the super took over.
Most likely. The new controller seemed to have no idea there was an airplane waiting to take off.
Isn't that the point of being in a tower, to visually see aircraft?
The tower at Indy is almost two miles away from the location of the aircraft waiting to take off. Add understaffed, under trained controllers who are looking at multiple computer screens, not out the window with binoculars and this is bound to happen. @@Anurania
The first controller cleared 2 aircraft with 947 still lined up and waiting.
I am glad they gave the number to the guy lined up, those 2 atc that switched comms while ongoing ops, are going to get the shaft and go to retraining. Cool Customers on all pilots involved.
Nope, they won’t be retrained. That is a thing of the past. There will be a discussion and they will be put right back on the job.
Yet again demonstrates the strange fascination in the US of clearing one and more planes to land when the runway isn’t clear. It then requires a positive action to cancel their clearance to land when something goes wrong.
Suspect that’s part of the reason matey on the runway sat tight for a bit: because they’re used to hearing others cleared to land when runway isn’t clear. Should have said earlier “I’m sat on 5L here still” but again a factor may be that he doesn’t know is far away the other planes are. Not a good situation all round - the pilots on final should also have situational awareness he was still sat on the runway: they wouldn’t have heard his take off clearance(because there wasn’t one) and most likely they should have been able to see him - assuming they were looking.
I can't believe that 947 was given a number to call. I mean, if there was a shift change in the tower then there was horrible communication with the updates. Whoever that pilot was I'm glad he was paying attention. He saved his life and the lives of others. That was horrible maneuvering by ATC!
He wanted to talk about the situation lol. Stop acting like he was required to call the tower like he did something wrong.
This business will get out of control...and we'll be lucky to live through it
... and I was never here.
@@kaasmeester5903 Has there been any crazy ivans?
I am so confused as to how a line up and wait command becomes sit on the runway for 5 minutes.
ATC lost'em.
I dk what’s going on but you can’t you line and wait and clear someone at the same time
@@UnableTG happens all the time.
@@NationalAtlantaa ground controller will never clear you to line up a runway. Only tower can
I'm sure the families of Skywest 569 would like to know the same thing.
This was a cluster f&^!
Good thing Lift 947 was paying attention
Situational awareness is a must for everybody, as this shows. Good catch by 947. Extremely professionally handled by the pilot. No blame, told what was said and then just went on with it.
Anyone knows the weather? What time is it?
When ATC's first plug into position, they must get a briefing from the controller currently on position. Before that though, the relieving controller is supposed to be monitoring the position so as to be fully prepared. Then in the briefing all the pertinent information is relayed vocally from the current controller to the new one. Clearly both controllers dropped the ball here. The first forgot about a plane on the runway and the second failed to notice this in her prep before taking over. Usually something like this is caught by another controller or by the supervisor or controller in charge. Makes you wonder what is going on in this tower.
I'm always amazed when a pilot is cleared to land with someone still on the runway and needs to be told to go around.
Amazes me too what''s done in the US..... in the UK you cannot be cleared to land with an occupied runway, and only one aircraft at a time is cleared to land.
@@geoffleach3749ditto here in NZ, you don't get a landing clearance until the runway is entirely yours. None of this "cleared to land you're number two" because what if number one can't clear the runway for some reason.
Legend has it, 947 is still holding short to this day.
Legend has it that people will come up with something more original than legend has it. It’s gay.
Another day, another near miss caused by ATC clearing multiple aircraft onto runways in the vague hope that everything will sorta work out ok
Absolutely spot on identification of the root cause. This is a systemic failure in US aviation.
Never heard it said that way but 👍👍👍
Many of these fall on the pilots too. How about the Hawker that departed a couple of days ago w/o a clearance and gave ATC attitude after he hit a Citation....was told to line up and wait. How about the southwest pilot who willingly accepted a clearance from ATC in front of a FEDEX short final in IFR conditions in TX not long ago who knew he couldn't be off the runway in time or the AAL pilot taxi across a runway in NY in front of Delta who was cleared for takeoff...Plenty of blame to go around on both sides
@@av8ionUSMC absolutely
Indianapolis is an airport where they do a lot of training. Not flight training.....Controller training. I was spaced two miles behind a preceding 757 one evening on final for 23R! They broke us off and then re-sequenced us, but only after we pointed this out. Then we had to do a go around because the airplane in front of us was taking their sweet time getting off the runway! We both put in safety reports with the company over this silliness.
The first example is considered controller training, the second one is the controller doing their job... not an error. If an aircraft gets off the runway too slow, go around was the correct option.
@@SAviator93 Really? This was NOT a visual approach due to scud in the area. THEY were responsible for following distance. Even the second time they should have spaced us out farther or told the preceding SWA 737 to vacate the runway quickly, neither of which happened.
@@Jorge-j4x you're correct on separation minima but you saying "aircraft taking their sweet time" doesn't prove there was a loss in radar separation. You could have 3 miles all day but if the guy takes forever on the runway, it doesn't matter. The separation is kept from the threshold, not the turn off of the runway.
Could the controller tell them to expedite off the runway? Sure, you're correct but it's going to vary on aircraft type. If it's a jet, it won't be that common.
So again, the second example was not a controller/separation issue.
I’m based out of KIND, so I agree with a lot of what has been said on this thread. That said, Lyft has no business operating at KIND. The heavy mix of DA-40 and turbine aircraft makes a complete mess of things, and with the way the airport is laid out, I swear half of the “flight” time the students there are getting must actually be taxi time (what a rip off).
Combine that with the large volume of controller training and you have the proverbial soup sandwich. I routinely wait at the end of the runway with traffic five or more miles out. Many airports would roll at least one departure, maybe even two during that interval. KIND? Nope, sit there burning Jet-A like it grows on trees. Not to mention the innumerable times I’ve been delayed taxiing so a Lyft can dawdle it’s way in or out of their ramp.
I absolutely get that the basic premise of ATC is first come, first served, but there is at least some unwritten premise that this will occur in a somewhat efficient manner. Dear FedEx: Please move more of your operations here, so KIND can be upgraded to Class B. Build Lyft a nice hangar at KMQJ and let get them the heck out of International! Heck, put a tower in there. They can still get all the ATC practice they want, and they’ll get a better training experience, and they won’t mess up the traffic flow. It would truly be a win-win IMO.
I’m not even against Student pilots training at larger airports - we all had to start somewhere, and they need the experience. But the volume of training traffic is completely disproportionate to the primary purpose of KIND, whereas KMQJ is almost tailor made for that type of activity (KHFY or KTYQ would also be ok, but development encroaching is likely to become a factor over time, and we know how that usually goes).
@@AndreySloan_is_a_cnut amen. Just don't send them to HUF 😂
Always a good idea to make a call if you’ve been waiting a while
Trying to figure out if the first Tower controller forgot about them or if there was confusion/issues in the relief briefing with the new controller. From the second controller's questioning of Lift 947's position, it seems like KIND does not have any ground radar (let alone ASDE-X) and the tower doesn't have good visibility of the runway (which tracks based on it's position well to the southwest of the terminal and nearly 2 miles from Runway 14/32).
If you’re waiting more than 30 seconds in a line up and wait situation, advise the tower
This is a perfect example of why it’s important to keep a sterile cockpit, shooting the breeze or doing other unnecessary tasks could have easily made the pilots not hear or recognize the conflict.
I've had a couple times I felt very uncomfortable when the controller had me follow someone who basically cut me off. I asked on the radio do you want me to go around!!!?? It was bad, I didn't feel comfortable and at the very last second the lady said go around! Clearly improper spacing. So glad this guy had his head on a swivel.
Not sure why 947 got so much attitude from the controller when he was the only one of the 4 who had situational awareness.
That is EXACTLY why 947 will receive all the blame.
Fun fact...that controller is always like that
So ATC told them to line up and wait and forgot they were there, never giving a TO clearance. Smooth. Tower dropped the ball and sounded at first like she was blaming 947 until the pilot explained he was told to line up and wait. Then, her tone changed when she realized the controller she relieved forgot to tell her.
I was coming into YYZ one time flying on a 737 as a passenger (early 2010s). About to land like 100-200 feet off the ground barely by my rough estimate we go into a high g climb all of a sudden. The pilot lets us know later the runway wasn't clear despite given clearance to land. I always wonder how close it really was. Mistakes like this apparently happen all the time at YYZ (Toronto).
no way you were on the way back from dominican right?
Ohhh oh… Somebody gonna get a spanking! If you make someone line up and wait, please don’t land planes on top of them. That’s basically ATC’s job to not let that happen. :( It’s very fortunate no one got unalived!
❤ from 🇨🇦 eh! :)
Usually, it's the pilot who dreads that telephone number. When a pilot asks for "The Number," well, you know someone is going to have a nice chat.
Definitely ATC mistake , an they even give the number 😖 this is BS ,
I’ll blame ATC and the pilot of LTA179 for not see the aircraft on the ground 🥴
Great situational awareness of N947L ,
One has to wonder why 947 was not just cleared for take-off when 179 and 368 were being vectored for final approach. line-up and wait - for what?!
Who’s on 14?
No, What’s on 14! Who’s holding short!
You can never just assume that an ATC instruction is correct. Pilots have a role in watching ATC, just as ATC watches out for pilots. Pilots have to be ready to notice any mistake or anomaly with any ATC instruction. Especially when cleared onto an active runway, or when given a clearance to cross into the path of a parallel rwy after takeoff or go around.
Exactly. That's part of being pilot in command.
Then accepted practice should not be to clear multiple aircraft onto the same runway simultaneously. If clearing multiple aircraft is routine practice, and one pilot is cleared to line up and wait, they should not be penalised (less still killed) for following that instruction. Had that student been solo, assuming the controller knew what they were doing, would the conflict have been highlighted before the landing aircraft touched down?
@@BillySugger1965 If the airplanes are minutes apart from each other, there is no issue with clearing them together. ATC generally does not clear planes if someone is lined up on the runway. The controllers screwed up and the 947 pilot was not listening to the frequency or was too timid to speak up until the last second, which is dangerous. If you are told to LUAW, you should be 100% certain at all times that ATC has not forgotten about you. If you hear a controller change, you should definitely remind them.
Great situational awareness on the part of LTA947. This had the potential of a major catastrophe!!!! Tower forgot all about LTA947!!!! These incursions are happening all too often! It’s just a matter of time before we hear it on the news that there was a midair or ground collision!!! Too many aircrafts and not enough experienced controllers and pilots!
I wouldn't say speaking up MINUTES after the tower clears another plane to land on your runway is an example of good situational awareness. They should have called ATC after sitting on the runway for at most a minute or so. Pilots can't just assume ATC will never make mistakes. That's why you clear final before you cross a runway and that's why you should always confirm with ATC if you have an inkling of suspicion that they forgot about you.
Minutes are way better than seconds. If the pilots had NOT made any comment to tower this could have had serious implications. The fact that the pilots were aware of the situation, they made the call to tower, they knew they can’t just start rolling before they get clearance or they would be at fault if there were to be an incursion.
I live just west of Indy next to an uncontrolled airport and those Lift guys run all day everyday and several nights per week, multiple aircraft in the pattern with other GA so seems to me they have it together. Great job Lift…did 179 ever get instructions to 5L?
You're right this controler was completly off the track. Pathetic
He called exactly when he should have, sitting around a bit is ok, atc is doing its thing, but when they clear someone to land and youre there its time to make sure they havent forgotten about you.
Lift 947 was like the guy walking behind the group of friends after finishing work lol
Makes me wonder how long one is supposed to remain sitting on an active runway w/o radio contact with tower.
I’d speak up before 2 minutes.
@@richwightman3044 - If I were to offer any critique of 947 it would be that they waited a bit too long. But kudos to them for speaking up. ATC clearly lost situational awareness in this event.
Outside the US, where we don’t clear multiple aircraft to use the same runway at the same time, about a second! If that student had been solo, and just followed ATC instruction without the experience and presence of mind to question the controller, that could have been a multiple fatality right there. Just stop clearing multiple aircraft to use the same runway at the same time unless ATC has the systems and capacity to manage that safely. There are just far too many close calls in the US from this evidently dangerous practice.
There are time limits when held at a red signal on the uk railway, which was two minutes. After two minutes you have to call the signaller.
I think we have automatic detection and reminders nowadays.
Yes - get that information - let's have that discussion.
I would have prompted the controller after 30sec. But good on him for not getting angry at the controllers mistake.
“Tower, I’ve got a number for you to call, advise ready to copy.”
Sounds like Tower can't actually see the entire airport - she had to call the waiting airplane to check if he was still on H, and tower obviously didnt see the plane on a visual scan of RW14 when clearing other planes to land.
Someone els responded to a comment saying that the tower was 2 miles away from where the aircraft waiting to take off.
I've been inside this tower. It's very tall but it is far from 14/32. A DA40 is going to be very difficult to see holding in position.
Not a pilot or ATC, but seems like this is an easy fix with a few cameras pointed at/down the active runway(s) being displayed on an overhead. Quick visual scan to confirm what your other computers are telling you.
@@SAviator93and if I'm right our tower probably doesn't have many, if not, no blind spots when it comes to airport coverage.
I had a weird occurrence at IND (I’d say incident but it was pretty uneventful, just very puzzling). On about a 5 mile final in an Embraer 170. I hear another 170 from a different company check in with tower behind us. They tell that plane to slow to slowest practical because they have something like a 60 or 80 knot overtake on us. And we weren’t even slowed all the way slowed to our approach speed yet. It struck me as weird that approach control would have allowed someone to blaze onto final like that. Something is off about that airspace. Seems like a concerning lack of control in that airspace.
So who gives the tower a number to call when they screw up? Possible ATC deviation?
You ask for their number, then call them.
@@intelfx86And can you then swear at them for almost getting you killed?
I don't understand how he "forgot" about a LUAW he had just authorized and casually moved on to clear two planes to land on that exact same runway in the following communication. Wow.
Lift 179 kept asking do you want us to make a left turn at the end? She kept telling Lift 368 to make a right turn on 230. She was either not hearing the right call sign, or was ignoring 179.
Can’t imagine sitting on an active runway for five minutes before calling to question. Two minutes Max.
The line up and wait… hate it.
"947, here's a number for you to call..."
"Roger that, and here is a number for your colleague to call..."
Controller screwed the pooch on that one. Lol. Glad pilot was alert.
Man, what a MESS!! At an INTERNATIONAL airport!!! Jesus!!!
It's just a matter of time before line up and wait goes away, thats the scariest time to be a sitting duck on a runway , especially at a busy airport.
At work we talk about how the more near misses you have, the more recordables you have. The more recordables you have, the more likely a fatality is for your site. US aviation is having a lot of near misses. Not always at the same location, but the trend is still concerning. We really could use the FAA issuing safety stand downs with all players to help avoid a disaster.
I guess I'm stupid. After figuring out there's a problem --and after giving out the two go-arounds, why didn't they just go ahead and allow the AC on the runaway to depart?
USN 68-74, ETR-2, NAS Miramar 70-74, I maintained GCA RADAR and TACAN. GREAT place to be back then.
Was thinking the same - they were in position, should have just cleared them to takeoff. I personally don't enjoy LUAW - hard to see what's about to slam into you from behind. I avoid it when I can.
1. The go-arounds are still in progress and are occurring above the runway, therefore the aircraft can't depart.
2. The new controller realizes the previous controller did something wrong, but does not want to give a departure clearance until she has a good picture of the situation.
@@jqxokbingo
The obvious ATC foul-up aside, one must ask why 179 was seemingly going to continue his landing before the GA instruction. How could he not see an aircraft on HIS runway.
Maybe because there's this engine thingy ahead of the cockpit which kinda sorta completely blocks visibility forward and down?
@@JC130676 he probably would have seen him on short final
You'd be surprised how hard it is to see a small plane even just a mile away.
Easy. The departing aircraft was lined up at an intersection while the landing pilot was focussed on the threshold to touchdown area, as well as the aspect ratio of the runway. He’s not focused on checking that there are no small aircraft way down that 7,000 foot runway in the roll-out zone, that’s the controller’s job who’s managing traffic. Indeed a good pilot _should_ spot an obstacle on the runway, but we’re human and that’s a period of high workload and attention is focussed elsewhere. It’s very easy to not see the conflict. That’s why we have controllers!
Like Mark said, 947 was cleared to line up and wait at an intersection about halfway down the runway. The DA-40s are not the biggest planes in the world. You have an "inexperienced pilot" working on getting the plane down safely and the instructor also task saturated keeping an eye on what the student is doing, as well as the environment around them. When you're fixated on that and the threshold, you're not necessarily checking for aircraft halfway down the runway.
Also, 947 caught the Cleared to Land and called back up very quickly when they heard them cleared to land on their runway, so the other LIFT planes were still a little ways out, they might have assumed they were receiving clearance to land, with clearance to takeoff happening shortly after and not necessarily challenging it. 947 challenged it.
ATC: I had a very bad day at work today.
Friend: It's fine it's not like anyone died.
ATC: Actually I killed 238 people.
Friend: 😧
when she told 947 to take a number, was she trying to put the blame on the pilot? or was she telling the pilot to make a complaint about the ATC Controller?
Legend has it he’s still holding short.
ATC seemed to be steering those two landing aircraft a lot before getting them lined up on approach. Were there a lot other aircraft around not shown in the vidro?
What a hot mess. Good SA on Lift 947.
She asked three or four times LTA947 if he wanted to depart 😂
Lift 947 is still holding short 14L.
Sounded like controller who said line up and wait was tired. Then tower mama came in and had to fix things.
LOL @ "tower mama" :D
ATC at its finest OMG 😂
The tower was at fault here, but if I would have been in the LTA947, I would have spoken up earlier and there would have been time to let me take off and let the others land behind me as planned.
I mean, in theory, the two landing could have tucked into Gulf before ever reaching Hotel, but that's not the way things are done. But by the time you spool up and get down and off at Juliet from a dead stop, it takes a hot second too.
5 minutes? May just throw a quick reminder out there after a couple minutes.
She still didn't answer 179s question of if they should make a left. From where they were they could have either overflown 5L for a left downwind or join a right downwind. Seems like a confusing day in the IND tower.
I'm not in aviation, so I don't understand.
Hold short means stop before you get to whatever I've told you to go to, right?
Line up and wait means enter and await further instructions, right?
Correct on both counts.
Yes. They were departing and was told to line up on the runway and wait for departure clearance. Clearance never came but others planes were told to land.
@@GrimYak So the pilot isn't at fault at all. Alright. Thanks for clearing that up
I am not a pilot, but am an aviation nerd and watch streams every day. This to me is terrifying, and kudos to the 947 pilots, who luckily were fully aware of what was going on when no one else was. Brilliant situational awareness as has already been said. Could have been a catastrophe. Hopefully some butts gets spanked for this. In saying that, ATC is NOT a job that I would ever want, so stressful, and I did 15 yrs with the Police.
What kind of shenanigans is this 😲
When ATC has royally F'ed up and they can't even acknowledge it on the air.
ATC forgot about the departing aircraft. I'm guessing there was a change in controllers??
I've been retired a few years but this sounds like what we used to refer to as a "Goat screw".
Right turn for 14 downwind on go-around, then gets snippy when they ask to make the left turn after she suddenly changes runways on them? Poor job by both controllers.
I just don’t get the logic of handing out landing clearances like they are some kind of casual gesture.
In this case the first aircraft is cleared to land whilst the runway is blocked (this fact may have been missed by ATC). The second aircraft is cleared to land whilst the one ahead isn’t even on the ground yet. And after the go-arounds one aircraft is cleared to land again on 05L when they are barely crosswind (potentially causing some situational awareness confusion, especially having just flown a go-around and/or potentially looking at another runway).
When a landing clearance is given casually, with the assumption that it can always be retracted in the event that the situation changes then, in my opinion, you are only setting up for something to be missed in the event of a distraction or rapidly changing event.
If, on the other hand, a landing clearance isn’t given until the previous aircraft is vacating the active runway either by turning off it or departing, then that clearance can be systematically proceeded by the controller verifying that the runway is indeed clear. If however, the controller becomes distracted by a change in circumstances then the approaching aircraft can always call in short final and request that clearance prompting the controller to check the situation and give a landing clearance or go-around as needs be.
If the inbound aircraft does not receive the clearance, even after prompting ATC - maybe because of a developing situation - they would simply fly the missed approach procedure by default.
I appreciate that an aircraft should fly a GA even if cleared to land but then sees an obstruction but this assumes they see it. ATC have a different situational awareness to pilots and those two perspectives should work together. And the point here is that if not yet cleared the nudge by the pilot for their clearance should prompt the controller to check the situation before giving the requested landing clearance.
Certainly this is a matter hard to explain in a brief comment but the principle is simple. In the same logic that the word ‘takeoff’ should only ever be used in the context of a takeoff clearance, surely it would be better if landing clearance were only ever given when it is ‘clear’ for the inbound aircraft to land.
I understand that this is all acceptable procedure by FAA regulations however many other countries would not allow this.
Two aircraft were cleared to land whilst minutes out. The one on the runway was forgotten.
The fix to avoid this is a simple procedure change. Clear the departing traffic to line up. Instruct the inbound aircraft to continue their approach and expect late landing clearance. When suitable, clear the waiting aircraft for takeoff. Once airborne clear the first inbound aircraft to land. Once that landing aircraft has vacated the runway clear the second. This is the procedure in many countries.
Perfect analysis. This is exactly how we do it in Europe. This routine practice in North America of clearing multiple aircraft to use the same runway at the same time is inherently dangerous, as exemplified by this and the many other similar incidents publicised recently.
@@BillySugger1965 Indeed. I have professional experience flying in both Europe and the US. I also hold FAA and EASA licences and have worked in a safety capacity professionally.
Examples like this just make me incredulous. I was once flying in the US, approaching an extremely busy international airport, and was cleared to land as number four! In my opinion all that's happening is that controllers are offloading any responsibility to ensure the runway is clear. Sure, the pilot (Captain ultimately) must be satisfied the runway is clear, but why not just have that extra set of eyes to scan the runway for any obstruction before giving the clearance? It's roughly what happens for takeoff clearance.
There are differences between FAA and EASA procedures. And for many it really is a 50:50 as to which is best; and arguably many of the FAA's procedures are better suited to US operations or at least don't come with any 'cost', they're just different. But this one baffles me. It always has, and will continue to do so, because I just can not see any advantage to it whatsoever.
Good catch.
Lift947 should have told her prepare to copy a number for a possible controller deviation.
What I want to know is why TWR was giving all those heading vectors in what as far as I can see should have been routine circuit ops, unless there is some other context I'm missing
Apparently, he clocked out right after Line-up-and-waiting an ac on the active.
Unions: not what they used to be
The one time the ATC should have a high heart rate saying the words: Copy this number. What a failure and than that attitude. She could have just cleared him for take-off but he has to leave the runway as if he did something wrong 😂 She just escalated the whole thing on top of the initial dangerous mistake.
Hahahaha possible controller violation I'm ready to copy your number 😂😂😂
This is a huge problems I’ve seen lately. Aircraft being cleared to takeoff when a landing aircraft is either still on the runway or on very short final.
Legend says Lift 947 is still holding short of 14