Hey Tyler, love the videos. Seriously, you are awesome with a capital A. Just wanted to point something out in case you missed it (it was unclear from your commentary)- snowing in Sunnydale IS THE MIRACLE that saved Angel, not one miracle inspiring another. All episode long we had been hearing on news and from characters that there is a heat wave going on in Sunnydale on Christmas, it never snows there, it really wasn't expected to snow there. Yet just when Angel decides to die by sunlight, not only is there torrential snowfall, we can also hear on the news now that sun isn't expected to show at all on that particular day. It stumps Angel not only by foiling his suicide by sunlight plan, but by also combating his deep-seated belief that "the world wants him gone". Obviously some very powerful and miraculous good force, i.e. the "powers that be" decided to give him this day of grace, changing the course of the world because they want him to stay alive and keep fighting. It restored Angel's faith, hence the Christmas miracle in literal and metaphorical sense.
There's this great detail that one of the victims is wearing modern clothes, given how long Angel has had a soul it's implied that he must have killed this man offscreen last season.
@@RLucas3000 "Is that Buffy’s fault for not tying Angel" - No, it's the fault of the Kalderash for wanting revenge instead of justice and their idiot plan that backfired so badly.
@@l.s.d.5863 not me either. I mean the only culprit here is Angelus. But trying to pin this on Buffy is "even simpler" to use your wording. Honestly this line of thinking is often used in smear campaigns in politics and it is IMHO just as bad there.
SPOILERS FOR THE BUFFY SPINOFF!!! DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN ALL OF THE ANGEL SPINOFF (EDIT: THIS GOES FOR THE COMMENTS IN THE THREAD AS WELL)!!! This is an unspoiled comment somewhere else in the videos comment section: _Snow saves Angel from suicide. Not from The First Evil. People don't always get that the snow saves him, and even when they do, they sometimes mistakenly think it saves him from The First. The First was fine with what Angel was going to do._ What I didn't write is that I head canon it is The PTB who send the snow during a heat wave. They don't show up for BtVS situations because to them, Buffy dies and another slayer takes her place. No big deal. But if Angel dies, there is no vampire champion with a soul that needs to fulfil a prophecy to take his place. So they didn't allow him to commit suicide and created the miracle that made him rethink suicide.
Wait...I thought it was Jasmine? Or did she bring him back from the hell dimension? I could've sworn that we'd had it practically confirmed or at least heavily implied that she was behind one or both of those things and had been orchestrating stuff behind the scenes for a while to make everything align so she could bring herself into the world. Maybe I'm crazy, it's been a while since I've done a full rewatch of Angel.
@@suzetterossini4563 SPOILERS FOR THE SPINOFF The moment your recalling is Skip telling the team while being held hostage in S4's _Inside Out_ that things align for Jasmine to do what she needed to do, but with what he says, the way many people interpret what he says is that it did happen that particular way, but it didn't have to be that particular way. That's how prophecy works. Prophecy's will happn, but the details are never known. Examples: 1) Buffy wasn't listed by name in the prophecy where The Master killed her, but her going to meet The Master cemented it would be her. It could have been a different slayer, though. 2) Buffy and Angel didn't have to be together and then break up to get Angel to LA. 3) It didn't even have to be Angel and friends taking this Cordelia inhabiting creature - Jasmine - on. It could have been numerous combinations of people known to the show or unknown to the show. 4) Buffy could have stayed with Angel and been in Cordelia's position instead of giving birth to Connor. 5) It could have been Connor being the creature's father, except with Buffy as Connor's mom whith her home still in Sunnydale. This also includes Angel not dying in _Amends._ Skip giving Jasmine credit doesn't actually mean anything. During this episode, The First also takes credit for bringing Angel back from Hell, but I'll believe it's The PTB before I'll believe The First or Jasmine pulled Angel out of hell. I'm not stating it would be wrong to believe Skip, but he never definitivly states anything that can be taken and verified as fact (but neither does The First or The PTB or anyone else). And with what Gunn says later in _Inside Out_ about people making their own choices on the little things, I interpret that as, if its not prophecy related the characters make their own decicions, and Skip is just a zelot with trying to talk up the creature he worships aka Jasmine. But nothing is ever definitively stated. I always assumed the writers wanted people to form their own opinions and/or choose who to believe. My personal opinion is what I stated in the original comment. For me, it makes more sense to see Jasmine as just as another cog/bad guy in the overall Nyazian Prophecy stating Angel has to defeat many foes and fight many battles before he can get the reward of humanity. Prophecy-wise, I don't see her as any more important than that.
Spoilers: Jasmine wasn’t actually evil though. She genuinely _did_ want to be an active participant in the fight for good to triumph over evil. But she’s so beyond humanity, that it’s impossible for her to treat them as equals. She’s like a gardener tending to her garden. Mowing the lawn and pruning flowers to facilitate better growth. Completely standard gardening fare, but to the plants, she’s a monster that routinely kills and mutilates them. And like any human, she eats plants, not unlike how Jasmine eats people. She’s only evil from _our_ perspective.
@@arc7375 No villain character is evil in that regard because no one regards themselves as evil. That could equate to real life bad guys, as well. This is the same debate MCU fans have about the bad guy in Killmonger in _Black Panther._ He doesn't see himself as evil despite the badness he's doing. Jasmine under the situation you describe doesn't mean what she's doing is dood enough to be considered a good guy. She's still the antagonist who used Cordelia to commit unspeakable acts before even revealing herself as someone who wanted peace for the trade of eating people without their consent.
When Tyler starts writing the dialogue before it happens XD Just noting that the snow is pretty miraculous given Sunnydale was in the middle of a heat wave *and* it saves Angles life, as many people miss that. Could be freak weather or could be a sign of something else…
Watching these reactions is the closest thing we may ever get to time travel. I know the future, and now I'm waiting to see how you'll react to the future I know is to come. It's very exciting.
I’m sitting on my hands waiting. There’s THAT episode in s5, and a few in s6 (❤, oof) and finally approaching the finale with context will be really nice. But man. The waiting.
I love this episode. I watch it every year and I love Buffy's speech on the roof. "Strong is fighting and we can do it together, but if you are too much of a coward, then burn..." it's a fantastic speech and well delivered and acted by two talented actors, they really sell it. Maybe I am just a big softie but it makes me a bit teary eyed every time I rewatch it.
I’m being spoiled! I remember finding this episode a little off, tone wise, but seeing it now makes me appreciate how many important plot points it moves forward or introduces, seeds for the future of both Buffy and Angel, and that make me like it a little better in hindsight. You’ll be delighted to learn that Angel’s accents never get better, bless him. But then, since none of us were alive at the time, maybe it was actually super accurate! lol
Speaking of Xander snow doesn't even make him go in. I left my house hold with no place to go already set in my mind to live out of my car. I lived out of my car for two years through tropical storm flooding, through dead of winter freeze cold, through hottest humidity ...I got frost bite on legs, I became dizzy from heat stroke. I survived out of my car. Having a job at AutoZone and a gym membership at Goldsgym helped me push through rather then wanting to go in like Xander didn't. So when you say not even the snow gets Xander to go in. You have to experience hopeless home life to understand the easy decision is the physical hard living than the hard mental living.
My comment there was sadness at that. It was an acknowledgment that his home life was so bad not even the conditions made him go in. I'm so sorry that you've also experienced that 💙💙💙
@TylerAlexander I knew mentally I could live that way. It developed me to even more capable strength. I know many homeless experience different. My experience was great to know that I have the will to make it without the Buffy dreams ways *smirk
@TylerAlexander oh and yes o understood your comment. My thing is I was just wanted to share the depth into the factor that nature forces couldn't bring me back home.
It's something you might not have heard because you get distracted with Jenny. But the scene with angel at giles's house what Giles was saying what Giles was saying " the last time you became complicit about your existence, it turned out rather badly." It's just such an interesting line to me. Also, I feel like this episode plays a lot into the soul. Cannon for Angel as character. Liam (pre-vampire) in this episode is described as a "drunken whoring layabout" I always thought of soul Cannon as who we are pre-vampire transformation gives like an outline for the demon that takes us over when we become a vampire. So if Angel was a man without morals or beliefs. Or just very weak morals and beliefs. It would create less of a rigid outline for the demon. Angel did not begin a moral development until after he was cursed. As we see in the season 2 finale of Buffy, he wallowed in self-tortured for almost 100 years before making his way to Sunnydale. And we get a lot more Angel backstory in his spin-off series. If you get the chance, check out Passion of the nerd video essay for s the wish, amends, and gingerbread.
Amends was one of the best episodes of S3, and for me personally a top ten from the whole show. We are introduced to one of the worst Big Bads of the whole show in The First Evil tormenting Angel through his past victims. The concept of The First is that it gave the writers a way of reintroducing old characters to add to the richness of the show, as The First can channel its evil through dead people attacking the mind of the living. The ending scene with Buffy and Angel is brilliantly acted when Buffy is trying to save Angel from daylight, SMG and David Boreanaz absolutely knock it out of the park here, and The Hallmark movie ending even though schmaltzy, just works so well with the storyline. Comic relief with Willow using Barry White to seduce Oz is funny but sweet and innocent too. Again the acting from SMG and DG at the end was superb. Another great episode keeping up the brilliant quality of S3. This is actually a very important episode in the the show going forward. Great reaction again man, can see that you really get the show and appreciate the writing. S3 is just banger after banger, the quality of the episodes just improves so much.
The First are a very gimmicky way of bringing back old favorites and no one can touch them. Buffy just chases them away and I don't think she even killed those priests, who may or may not be human. Buffy's quips are the best, though. Alright, I get it. You're evil. Do we have to chat about it all day? You have no idea what you're dealing with! Let me guess. Is it... evil?
These two coming so closely together has really highlighted how effective Willow and Xander's plotline is as a compare/contrast to Angel's, something I've never really appreciated before. And Xander and Faith, both with shitty home lives that they escape by going to Buffy...the idea that it's the man in Angel that needs killing, not the demon...the protracted nature of Buffy's grief for her real romantic relationship because it keeps producing knock-on effects. Good stuff.
Your off the cuff thoughts about the show are interesting and fun to be with. Some episodes are beloved due to the humor. A few become favorites because of the witty dialogue mixed with solid action sequences. But, there are a few that are under the radar that ate cornerstones of the mental debates that elevates BTVS. This is one. In Season 2 we had the wonderful Lie To Me and the challenge of right, truth, and the definition of morality. Now we have Amends. This for most can be viewed superficially and enjoyed. But this grows in complexity with each viewing . Rather than the debates, the real discovery is that the foundation of evil does nothing physical but uses the failings and lack of character within mankind to create and achieve evil not for gain but because evil does what evil can. The First Evil had a primary plan and back up. Angel was brought back to kill not just The Slayer but specifically Buffy. There is an important reason this followed The Wish. We saw Buffy in that world and she was the standard Slayer , like Kendra and Faith. A cold, detached killer with a death sentence. Buffy is different and she has fundamentals learned in Season 2 that gives her an emotional maturity that can withstand The First Evil. Buffy is becoming a real threat , more than any previous Slayer. The First wants Buffy dead but if the plan does not go to goal then have either Buffy kill him or have Angel kill himself. Either option will greatly weaken Buffy, shake her moral certainty ( look how unimportant she felt The First Evil was to her) and with her weakened emotional maturity, be no longer a potentially pure threat. The First deals with justified bad choices and selfish desires. Buffy is not perfect but she has a certainty of what is right that can’t be fundamentally changed.
I think I have watched and, I am not too proud to confess, cried to the end conversation between Buffy and Angel in this episode more times than I have watched any other scene in Buffy. I can distinctly remember having a conversation with a friend of mine around the time when this was first aired in the UK, and she was trying to get me to watch Charmed instead of Buffy because it was "a better show and SMG can't act" etc. The way my heart broke for Buffy towards the end of this episode with the "what about me?" speech dispelled any doubts in my ability to judge whether a show was good, and someone could act. For a very long time this was my favourite Buffy episode, now I would say it's probably 3rd or 4th. The only thing that stops it being number 2 on the slot is just how bad the fake snow is at the end as they walk through the town, so obviously just sprayed foam.
I think I like this episode more with every rewatch. Probably the only instance of a Christmas miracle working for me, but hey, it's so well written and acted, and it's not just surface.
Ah, the Christmas episode. Sort of. Also known as Angel S01E0. It does lay some establishing ideas of what for and why Angel came back, and what might some greater power think he can do. And Buffy is there to help him. I always saw it as Angel being sent to California to learn from her, not the other way around with her needing his help, because he wasn't even much of a fighter early on. Xander had to go and get him.
The point is Angel says the world wants him dead, and Buffy says she doesn't know what proof he needs, then the sun doesn't rise all day long. The world wouldn't LET Angel end himself.
I think xander is a big missed opportunity, i thnk delving into his flaws would make his character more likable rather than him being kinda a jerk and it just moving on. His hate for Angel should have been more tied to having to kill a close friend in the pilot, that should have a more lasting effect than (jealous cause likes buffy)
I think one of the reasons why Oz and Willow can work it out is because both of them are more mature and both of them feel like they're on equal level. Also, Oz is so mature that he is able to swallow his pride (which isn't easy) and go for what his heart tells him. With Xander and Cordelia, it feels like they both have a lot of room to grow, personally, and it also feels like Cordelia may have "dated down" a bit, at least from her point of view. So to her, at least, it feels like a very big betrayal, which makes it so much harder to forgive. It also feels to me that Xander didn't appreciate Cordelia enough. E.g. making googly eyes at Faith etc. While I think Willow did appreciate Oz more (which however makes it even worse that she cheated on him!).
And of course Willow'd had a crush on Xander since forever, but Xander hadn't reciprocated at all while Willow wasn't seeing anyone. Xander apparently is mostly attracted to people he shouldn't be... He hasn't had any good adult role models in his upbringing.
Tyler, I love how you're a champion for the depictions of men that challenge the stereotypes, that reject the image of 'what men are supposed to be like.' Oz so much represents that, and in this episode in particular. Thank you for calling it out. Giles is your favorite character (I'd have to guess), but Oz must be a top 3, at least...
Great react. When the series of angel comes up. A lot of what you just discussed around Angel and his conscious person in charge and the fact he was an innocent victim comes up throughout the Whole series especially seasons 4 and 5. It's a more adult show. The accent gets better too
That’s the real difference between spike and angel Spike was a good man as a human, he had a good soul and his heart alway kept some of the compassion. Angel was mean soul as a human. The gypsys had to cruse him with guilt and compassion when they returned his soul the added the good.
I won't say anything about The First, but sidestep that by saying there are many episodes of Buffy that seem to be one-offs, but have far reaching consequences, the Halloween episode from S2 is a good example, where Xander's acquired knowledge was the key to stopping the Judge. There are many episodes of Buffy that fit that category, this might be one of them, or one might have slipped past us pretty recently, who knows?
Oz and Cordelia have different personalities and the relationships they had with Willow and Xander were also very different. Particularly, Cordy had to deal with the public humiliation on top of the pain of impalement which wasn’t conducive to her being in a forgiving mood. Oz being deeply self reflective and unaffected by popular opinion and an apparent advanced maturity was perhaps able to find his way to forgiveness that way. I think the plot and characterization were well set up for these results to seem like natural outcomes.
Snow saves Angel from suicide. Not from The First Evil. People don't always get that the snow saves him, and even when they do, they sometimes mistakenly think it saves him from The First. The First was fine with what Angel was going to do, but it was no longer trying to kill him.
You know, regarding Xander and Willow, it was two teens with a past (since young childhood) who thought they were going to die. Xander appeared to be dying, and they kissed. Unless that was supposed to be interpreted as being caught in the act of something more serious, I am not sure I understand why either the other boyfriend or girlfriend couldn't cut them a little slack for understanding that they were severely stressed, assuming they would be killed. But it has been MANY years since I was a teenager, or even one playing one on a television show, so perhaps I'm being too forgiving. That rant aside, Giles is justified in both his distrust of and dislike of Angel. That said, Angel is forgetting that there is a difference between himself with a soul and without one. The Buffy "dream" shared with Angel is sort of significant, but I shan't spoil.
…Alright Comment Section! Ten more minutes to acknowledge Buffy’s next level of Spider-Man Quips in this episode…then you all need switch off your devices and go ta bed! 😏😆
Absolutely. It's the difference between Oz and Cordelia. Oz is ten times more mature than Cordelia. He had to be, with his condition, while Cordelia has always been a pampered princess at home and only just recently stopped being one of the Mean Girls at school. Forgiveness is not in her yet.
And I'm with you. Having a rough home life is not an excuse for how he treats people sometimes. Especially how he treats Buffy when he's mad at her. It gives off way too many "Good Guy" vibes, like an incel without the celibacy.
And with Angel, it's interesting. How someone was as a person informs the kind of vampire they are. Angelus was a lot nastier as a vampire than some other vampires because he was a nastier *human* than other humans. He was a woman-using, violent, drunk. Not *completely* irredeemable because the guilt of what he'd done without a soul basically tormented him into being a better person once he had a soul forced on him, but he was still a piece of garbage as a human. And I will say no more until later seasons because spoilers and all that.
There are three characters in this series that I adore past all reason 1) Giles, 2) Oz, & 3)… well, the third hasn’t shown up yet. Wonderful reaction, as always 💜🌈🧛🏻♀️
Hello, if you don’t mind, can you do a movie reaction on a movie called, 1492: Conquest of Paradise. Adventure/Drama (1992). It stars Gérard Depardieu, Siqourney Weaver, Armand Assante. It portrays a version of the travels to the New World by the Italian explorer Christopher Columbus and the effect this had on indigenous peoples. Directed by Ridley Scott.
I love both shows but what you say about Angel and Angelous is ultimately why I like the Angel show even better than Buffy. While Buffy is basically a good and bad, black and white character as a lead. Angel is more shades of grey. He’s trying to be good while at the same time he always has a demon lurking inside trying to get out. Where Buddy just a superhero basically trying fight evil, Angel is a former demon who is fighting as a choice and for redemption as opposed to Buffy who is fighting because it’s “her destiny”. I honestly don’t love Angel as a character on Buffy because he exists as a tool to serve Buffy’s coming of age story. But on his his show he’s a former monster fighting for redemption with a demon inside him. And for me that’s a more inserting lead character for a show honestly.
I think part of the reason Willow is treated differently to Xander is that she takes accountability for her actions and is openly apologetic. She tries to make amends with Oz and respect what he needs going forward (space etc). With Xander he hasn't really taken responsibility at all, he's defaulted to projection and lashing out. When Cordelia is rightly angry at him he strikes back instead of apologising and acknowledging the pain he caused her, and even tries to get Buffy and Willow on 'his side'. I understand Xander's home life isn't great (although I don't feel like we're given enough of an insight into it to fully understand him) but neither is Willow's, albeit in a different way. Also, understanding why someone acts badly doesn't change that they're still acting badly - it provides context but doesn't excuse the behaviour itself.
Well said. It did take Oz making it clear to Willow in an earlier episode, when she wanted to talk to him, that he told her what he needed, he needed space and time to figure stuff out. "I can't help thinking that the reason you want to talk is so you can feel better about yourself. That's not my problem." So she did need some reinforcement to respect Oz's wishes, but that did work, and after that she let him have what he needed. Xander left a bazillion messages etc; rather than leaving Cordy alone, he obsessed over her, and as you noted, rather than take responsibility, then turned to projection and lashing out. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ Oz is a year older, but from clues in the show - seems to be living alone, no mention of parents, has his own can etc. - he also seems very independent and definitely even more mature than his extra year would imply. Willow seems a little mature for her age, and has parents who seem to treat parenting as a label experiment. Xander, most of the time, seems less mature than his age, and has a lot of hinted at issues in his home life, and seems to exemplify the concept that boys mature more slowly than girls, while Oz is the exception to the rule.
Totally agree that while I sympathize with Xander's dysnfunctional/abusive home life, it doesn't excuse his poor behavior. Many of us grew up in similar or worse households without treating our loved ones the way he treats the female scoobies.
I will say Ty that Buffy and it’s spin-off, Angel, are explorations of theories of existentialism and absurdism-that despite the seeming purposelessness of existence, people are challenged to create meaning through the infinite freedom of choice or action. But if you find tracking these themes through the franchise tiresome, you might be interested in media that gives a different perspective about the same dilemma. For that, I would recommend you watch Neon Genesis Evangelion, which some people have argued is an exploration of structuralism-the theory that limitations of meaning and possibility create a sense of meaning to the universe and our experience of it. Are these ideas not mutually exclusive but in fact related? You’ll have to let us know your thoughts.
I agree! ☝️ Always call people out of bad behavior - even if you understand their background. Angel has a lot a baggage 🧳 to walk around, but he is still not treating people bad, if he can avoid it. If Xander wants to overcome his problems, he should face his family at home. Not his found Family.
I'm really looking forward to watching your insights to this movie. For me personally I don't like this episode and skip it on every rewatch so haven't seen it in a loooooong time
I wonder if whedon wished his wife would think like Oz after he was found cheating. . Harsh to bring it out but its legitimately all i can think about during the cheating arch that whedon himself was unfaithful
I think we forget that though Angel is old and Buffy isn’t this is both of their first love. Angel hasn’t ever loved a partner either as a human or a vampire. So at times it may hit you as melodramatic teen relationship but maturity wise they are roughly equal and it’s big for them. Human Angel was self indulgent and immature, then he was an arrogant vampire, then caught in a loop of despair about things he’d done as Angelus. Getting himself together to help the slayer is him finally maturing and Buffy because of her nature and calling is more mature for her age. (Not in anyway saying a 25 year old and 16 year old should be dating, or 100+. Angel isn’t human thought, or real so I can let it go)
It's likely not entirely intentional on the writers behalf, but its interesting how all the people closest to Buffy are shown having their own real struggles. Xanders seemingly abusive homelife, Willow's borderline criminally neglectful parents and severe imposter syndrome, Faiths lack of support and apparent self isolation due to her self loathing, Angels tortured guilt. Yet the only character Buffy generally actively tries to help with their struggles is Angel, the one among them who most directly affects her. For all that Buffy is a hero, she has her failings.
I don’t think the point is that human Angel was comparable to demon Angel. The point is that he was never a good person and it’s disingenuous to hide behind that to distance himself from the demon. When he had a soul as a human, it never motivated him to do good.
I think it is comparable though considering the First is specifically bringing up his human self to make a point that he never did 'good' or has never been worth anything/worthy of redemption in the here and now. My point is that his deeds as a human are in no way comparable to the deeds he's actually being accused of here/why we're here at all, in what he did as Angelus specifically. Because the First specifically uses his human life as fodder to pile on the point, I think it's important to actually say 'no that's not fair'. That is entirely the point. Just because someone was lazy or a womaniser or drank a lot doesn't make them actively a bad person either. Maybe you're speaking from additional knowledge I don't have, but from what I've seen so far of human Angel he's not done anything *bad*. Just because he's not actively being a shining beacon of good to those around him, it doesn't warrant anyone coming and saying 'hey you deserve this mental torture today now in this present specifically because of your human life too'. These are important lines to draw, I think, when analysing all of this, and I'd say it's disingenuous to ignore that.
I don't remember this episode (maybe I missed it in original broadcast? Don't think I ever rewatched s3+4)… Some stuff here I didn't expect to see so early.
Come on! Delete this?! What possibly made you think spoiling future first appearances is fine? He's only seen 2 episodes after this and neither made him aware of the first in this episode.
@@brianmiller3529 Edit: I now realise the comment you responded to has been edited - but your comment now does spoil more. Sorry dude, you should edit or delete.
Not my favourite ep by a long chalk. A bit shmaltzy for my taste. Lore wise, it's undoubtedly important, and there are a few wonderful character insights, but the snow at the end? Saccharine.
The most infuriating thing about this show to me is the different answers we get about vampires. Is it that a demon totally takes over and the human is gone but the demon just has his memories? Is it that the human is still there but the demon just takes away any shred of conscience? Can it be both or either or neither depending on which specific human and which specific demon you get? Once we get a lot more of Spike's backstory, and we see a few other vampire characters in upcoming seasons, it will be interesting to get your take on the contrast. I've honestly never been a big fan of Angel/Buffy. David and Sarah did an amazing job in that scene and tugged on the old heartstrings, but the whole time I am always rolling my eyes because it screams of dramatic teenagers in their first love who think nothing else can ever ever ever compare.
You’re definitely not alone in finding it frustrating! Personally I love it, it grounds things in reality for me. Why would anyone know for sure? Everyone would theorise and what was understood would be misunderstood. Bias is a part of it too. It makes sense the watchers teach the most black and white version, but for example, the vampires are more likely to disagree and think they’re the same person as when they were human, but with a demon inside and no sense of guilt (which seems to be what a lack of a soul means in the Buffyverse)
@@tanyaisonYT I'm not really frustrated by the different theories or versions characters in the show have about it. That all makes sense, as you said. I'm frustrated that the actual actions (the show, don't tell parts) are internally inconsistent. Angel seems to be a case of a demon completely taking over and the actual person not existing in any capacity anymore, especially since the demon is exactly the same whenever his soul gets taken away a century later and hasn't developed at all with that additional 100 years of growth. But with other characters it is pretty clear that they are pretty much exactly the same as they were before being turned, other than not having a conscience anymore, and even getting their souls back a century later doesn't meaningfully change their character (other than piling on guilt for their actions). One of Buffy's classmates who gets turned who I won't name because spoilers follows the Spike model--exactly the same as they were before being turned, no meaningful difference at all, and in their case really truly no difference because they didn't even have much of a conscience when they were human.
The way I’ve always imagined the whole demon possession of vampirism worked is like an adlibs paper. The demon takes bits and pieces of who the human was to fill in the gaps and make the entire personality. For vamps like spike who had a pretty well defined self as a human u see that come through. Poetic romantic w serious mommy issues. While angel, who as a human was basically a drunk fuckboy, was easily more demon-ish.
personally I believe that the demon takes total control but it is bound to the constraints of it's new "prison" (aka the human brain it is now possessing), forcing to demon to adapt the personality of the human it possesses.
That’s the real difference between spike and angel Spike was a good man as a human, he had a good soul and his heart alway kept some of the compassion. Angel was mean soul as a human. The gypsys had to cruse him with guilt and compassion when they returned his soul the added the good.
Woah. Another Buffy reaction so soon? It must be Hanukkah!
Hey Tyler, love the videos. Seriously, you are awesome with a capital A. Just wanted to point something out in case you missed it (it was unclear from your commentary)- snowing in Sunnydale IS THE MIRACLE that saved Angel, not one miracle inspiring another. All episode long we had been hearing on news and from characters that there is a heat wave going on in Sunnydale on Christmas, it never snows there, it really wasn't expected to snow there. Yet just when Angel decides to die by sunlight, not only is there torrential snowfall, we can also hear on the news now that sun isn't expected to show at all on that particular day. It stumps Angel not only by foiling his suicide by sunlight plan, but by also combating his deep-seated belief that "the world wants him gone". Obviously some very powerful and miraculous good force, i.e. the "powers that be" decided to give him this day of grace, changing the course of the world because they want him to stay alive and keep fighting. It restored Angel's faith, hence the Christmas miracle in literal and metaphorical sense.
Sarah is too God damn good at the crying. Every damn time she does, I do too. 😭
Dang, back-to-back buffy reacts? And with two really good episodes to boot!
There's this great detail that one of the victims is wearing modern clothes, given how long Angel has had a soul it's implied that he must have killed this man offscreen last season.
And his two children! Is that Buffy’s fault for not tying Angel up after defeating him outside the mall, rather than just walking away?
@@RLucas3000 "Is that Buffy’s fault for not tying Angel" - No, it's the fault of the Kalderash for wanting revenge instead of justice and their idiot plan that backfired so badly.
@@Henrik_Holst I don't think it's that simple.
@@l.s.d.5863 not me either. I mean the only culprit here is Angelus. But trying to pin this on Buffy is "even simpler" to use your wording.
Honestly this line of thinking is often used in smear campaigns in politics and it is IMHO just as bad there.
Even though it's not her fault, I think she feels a sense of responsibility for not stopping him earlier. She says as much to Giles.
Also, this is one of the best Oz moments, imo. It shows just how lovely of a werehuman he is.
For me the Best Oz moments is definitely in 'earshot'😅
@@tbessie SPOILER
@@tbessie Shh.
@@OldManFerdiad Sorry, deleted it - I thought that had already been viewed
@@l.s.d.5863 Sorry, deleted it - I thought that had already been viewed
SPOILERS FOR THE BUFFY SPINOFF!!! DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN ALL OF THE ANGEL SPINOFF (EDIT: THIS GOES FOR THE COMMENTS IN THE THREAD AS WELL)!!!
This is an unspoiled comment somewhere else in the videos comment section:
_Snow saves Angel from suicide. Not from The First Evil. People don't always get that the snow saves him, and even when they do, they sometimes mistakenly think it saves him from The First. The First was fine with what Angel was going to do._
What I didn't write is that I head canon it is The PTB who send the snow during a heat wave. They don't show up for BtVS situations because to them, Buffy dies and another slayer takes her place. No big deal. But if Angel dies, there is no vampire champion with a soul that needs to fulfil a prophecy to take his place. So they didn't allow him to commit suicide and created the miracle that made him rethink suicide.
Wait...I thought it was Jasmine? Or did she bring him back from the hell dimension? I could've sworn that we'd had it practically confirmed or at least heavily implied that she was behind one or both of those things and had been orchestrating stuff behind the scenes for a while to make everything align so she could bring herself into the world. Maybe I'm crazy, it's been a while since I've done a full rewatch of Angel.
@@suzetterossini4563 SPOILERS FOR THE SPINOFF
The moment your recalling is Skip telling the team while being held hostage in S4's _Inside Out_ that things align for Jasmine to do what she needed to do, but with what he says, the way many people interpret what he says is that it did happen that particular way, but it didn't have to be that particular way. That's how prophecy works. Prophecy's will happn, but the details are never known.
Examples:
1) Buffy wasn't listed by name in the prophecy where The Master killed her, but her going to meet The Master cemented it would be her. It could have been a different slayer, though.
2) Buffy and Angel didn't have to be together and then break up to get Angel to LA.
3) It didn't even have to be Angel and friends taking this Cordelia inhabiting creature - Jasmine - on. It could have been numerous combinations of people known to the show or unknown to the show.
4) Buffy could have stayed with Angel and been in Cordelia's position instead of giving birth to Connor.
5) It could have been Connor being the creature's father, except with Buffy as Connor's mom whith her home still in Sunnydale.
This also includes Angel not dying in _Amends._ Skip giving Jasmine credit doesn't actually mean anything. During this episode, The First also takes credit for bringing Angel back from Hell, but I'll believe it's The PTB before I'll believe The First or Jasmine pulled Angel out of hell.
I'm not stating it would be wrong to believe Skip, but he never definitivly states anything that can be taken and verified as fact (but neither does The First or The PTB or anyone else). And with what Gunn says later in _Inside Out_ about people making their own choices on the little things, I interpret that as, if its not prophecy related the characters make their own decicions, and Skip is just a zelot with trying to talk up the creature he worships aka Jasmine.
But nothing is ever definitively stated. I always assumed the writers wanted people to form their own opinions and/or choose who to believe.
My personal opinion is what I stated in the original comment. For me, it makes more sense to see Jasmine as just as another cog/bad guy in the overall Nyazian Prophecy stating Angel has to defeat many foes and fight many battles before he can get the reward of humanity. Prophecy-wise, I don't see her as any more important than that.
Spoilers:
Jasmine wasn’t actually evil though. She genuinely _did_ want to be an active participant in the fight for good to triumph over evil. But she’s so beyond humanity, that it’s impossible for her to treat them as equals. She’s like a gardener tending to her garden. Mowing the lawn and pruning flowers to facilitate better growth. Completely standard gardening fare, but to the plants, she’s a monster that routinely kills and mutilates them. And like any human, she eats plants, not unlike how Jasmine eats people.
She’s only evil from _our_ perspective.
@@arc7375 No villain character is evil in that regard because no one regards themselves as evil. That could equate to real life bad guys, as well. This is the same debate MCU fans have about the bad guy in Killmonger in _Black Panther._ He doesn't see himself as evil despite the badness he's doing. Jasmine under the situation you describe doesn't mean what she's doing is dood enough to be considered a good guy. She's still the antagonist who used Cordelia to commit unspeakable acts before even revealing herself as someone who wanted peace for the trade of eating people without their consent.
When Tyler starts writing the dialogue before it happens XD
Just noting that the snow is pretty miraculous given Sunnydale was in the middle of a heat wave *and* it saves Angles life, as many people miss that. Could be freak weather or could be a sign of something else…
It did snow in the Hollywood area just a couple years ago, but not that much.
It's literal in universe Deus ex machina
Not to mention hey crazy Hellmouth logic 🤷♂️
Spoilers:
I mean from the vantage point of watching Angel I think it’s clear who did the miracle personally. XD
"Nightmares about the accent." LOL
We all had the nightmares about the accent. You just have to force yourself to find it endearing to make it bearable. It worked for me eventually 😂
Buffy's "stylish" bangs and Angel's "Irish" accent.....it was a rough week for both of them.
Watching these reactions is the closest thing we may ever get to time travel. I know the future, and now I'm waiting to see how you'll react to the future I know is to come. It's very exciting.
I’m sitting on my hands waiting. There’s THAT episode in s5, and a few in s6 (❤, oof) and finally approaching the finale with context will be really nice. But man. The waiting.
That “ow!” mid-opening credits. Loved it!
Wow the acting at the end of the episode never ceases to amaze me and the score is just beautiful.
I love this episode. I watch it every year and I love Buffy's speech on the roof. "Strong is fighting and we can do it together, but if you are too much of a coward, then burn..." it's a fantastic speech and well delivered and acted by two talented actors, they really sell it. Maybe I am just a big softie but it makes me a bit teary eyed every time I rewatch it.
I’m being spoiled! I remember finding this episode a little off, tone wise, but seeing it now makes me appreciate how many important plot points it moves forward or introduces, seeds for the future of both Buffy and Angel, and that make me like it a little better in hindsight.
You’ll be delighted to learn that Angel’s accents never get better, bless him. But then, since none of us were alive at the time, maybe it was actually super accurate! lol
Ah the 90's mini fringe! I do not miss it!
Sarah can pull it off cause she's so pretty but yikes!
Speaking of Xander snow doesn't even make him go in.
I left my house hold with no place to go already set in my mind to live out of my car. I lived out of my car for two years through tropical storm flooding, through dead of winter freeze cold, through hottest humidity ...I got frost bite on legs, I became dizzy from heat stroke. I survived out of my car. Having a job at AutoZone and a gym membership at Goldsgym helped me push through rather then wanting to go in like Xander didn't.
So when you say not even the snow gets Xander to go in. You have to experience hopeless home life to understand the easy decision is the physical hard living than the hard mental living.
My comment there was sadness at that. It was an acknowledgment that his home life was so bad not even the conditions made him go in.
I'm so sorry that you've also experienced that 💙💙💙
@TylerAlexander I knew mentally I could live that way. It developed me to even more capable strength. I know many homeless experience different. My experience was great to know that I have the will to make it without the Buffy dreams ways *smirk
@TylerAlexander oh and yes o understood your comment. My thing is I was just wanted to share the depth into the factor that nature forces couldn't bring me back home.
Oz was also not treated like crap and abandoned by all his non-scooby friends.
It's something you might not have heard because you get distracted with Jenny. But the scene with angel at giles's house what Giles was saying what Giles was saying " the last time you became complicit about your existence, it turned out rather badly." It's just such an interesting line to me.
Also, I feel like this episode plays a lot into the soul. Cannon for Angel as character. Liam (pre-vampire) in this episode is described as a "drunken whoring layabout"
I always thought of soul Cannon as who we are pre-vampire transformation gives like an outline for the demon that takes us over when we become a vampire. So if Angel was a man without morals or beliefs. Or just very weak morals and beliefs. It would create less of a rigid outline for the demon.
Angel did not begin a moral development until after he was cursed. As we see in the season 2 finale of Buffy, he wallowed in self-tortured for almost 100 years before making his way to Sunnydale. And we get a lot more Angel backstory in his spin-off series.
If you get the chance, check out Passion of the nerd video essay for s the wish, amends, and gingerbread.
Amends was one of the best episodes of S3, and for me personally a top ten from the whole show. We are introduced to one of the worst Big Bads of the whole show in The First Evil tormenting Angel through his past victims. The concept of The First is that it gave the writers a way of reintroducing old characters to add to the richness of the show, as The First can channel its evil through dead people attacking the mind of the living. The ending scene with Buffy and Angel is brilliantly acted when Buffy is trying to save Angel from daylight, SMG and David Boreanaz absolutely knock it out of the park here, and The Hallmark movie ending even though schmaltzy, just works so well with the storyline. Comic relief with Willow using Barry White to seduce Oz is funny but sweet and innocent too. Again the acting from SMG and DG at the end was superb. Another great episode keeping up the brilliant quality of S3. This is actually a very important episode in the the show going forward. Great reaction again man, can see that you really get the show and appreciate the writing. S3 is just banger after banger, the quality of the episodes just improves so much.
The First are a very gimmicky way of bringing back old favorites and no one can touch them. Buffy just chases them away and I don't think she even killed those priests, who may or may not be human. Buffy's quips are the best, though.
Alright, I get it. You're evil. Do we have to chat about it all day?
You have no idea what you're dealing with!
Let me guess. Is it... evil?
"DB" not "DG" - Danny Glover isn't in this show! 😉
(Adjacent/nearby letter typos are the bane of my existence...)
Spoilers.
@@grife3000 Tyler has watched the last episode so he can't be spoiled
@@ernesthakey3396 He would have been brilliant in it.
I don't know why but that "So, the angel's on top again?" joke never fails to make me chuckle!
These two coming so closely together has really highlighted how effective Willow and Xander's plotline is as a compare/contrast to Angel's, something I've never really appreciated before. And Xander and Faith, both with shitty home lives that they escape by going to Buffy...the idea that it's the man in Angel that needs killing, not the demon...the protracted nature of Buffy's grief for her real romantic relationship because it keeps producing knock-on effects. Good stuff.
Your off the cuff thoughts about the show are interesting and fun to be with. Some episodes are
beloved due to the humor. A few become favorites because of the witty dialogue mixed with solid action sequences. But, there are a few that are under the radar that ate cornerstones of the mental debates that elevates BTVS. This is one.
In Season 2 we had the wonderful Lie To Me and the challenge of right, truth, and the definition of morality. Now we have Amends. This for most can be viewed superficially and enjoyed. But this grows in complexity with each viewing . Rather than the debates, the real discovery is that the foundation of evil does nothing physical but uses the failings and lack of character within mankind to create and achieve evil not for gain but because evil does what evil can.
The First Evil had a primary plan and back up. Angel was brought back to kill not just The Slayer but specifically Buffy. There is an important reason this followed The Wish. We saw Buffy in that world and she was the standard Slayer , like Kendra and Faith. A cold, detached killer with a death sentence. Buffy is different and she has fundamentals learned in Season 2 that gives her an emotional maturity that can withstand The First Evil. Buffy is becoming a real threat , more than any previous Slayer.
The First wants Buffy dead but if the plan does not go to goal then have either Buffy kill him or have Angel kill himself. Either option will greatly weaken Buffy, shake her moral certainty ( look how unimportant she felt The First Evil was to her) and with her weakened emotional maturity, be no longer a potentially pure threat. The First deals with justified bad choices and selfish desires. Buffy is not perfect but she has a certainty of what is right that can’t be fundamentally changed.
Any Giles/ASH compliments make me happy. I heart him. ❤❤
I think I have watched and, I am not too proud to confess, cried to the end conversation between Buffy and Angel in this episode more times than I have watched any other scene in Buffy. I can distinctly remember having a conversation with a friend of mine around the time when this was first aired in the UK, and she was trying to get me to watch Charmed instead of Buffy because it was "a better show and SMG can't act" etc. The way my heart broke for Buffy towards the end of this episode with the "what about me?" speech dispelled any doubts in my ability to judge whether a show was good, and someone could act. For a very long time this was my favourite Buffy episode, now I would say it's probably 3rd or 4th. The only thing that stops it being number 2 on the slot is just how bad the fake snow is at the end as they walk through the town, so obviously just sprayed foam.
I think I like this episode more with every rewatch. Probably the only instance of a Christmas miracle working for me, but hey, it's so well written and acted, and it's not just surface.
okay, I was not expecting to cry tonight but here we are. such a beautiful & sad episode, and I love the snow at the end.
Oz is one of the best male characters ever written. 😊
He is a standard for “good man”
Are you sure it's not Christmas? Another Buffy so soon feels like a gift to me. 💜💜💜
“Nightmares about the accent” totally killed me
This is absolutely one of the most important episodes between both shows 100%.
"Am I a righteous man?" always gets me
Ah, the Christmas episode. Sort of. Also known as Angel S01E0. It does lay some establishing ideas of what for and why Angel came back, and what might some greater power think he can do. And Buffy is there to help him. I always saw it as Angel being sent to California to learn from her, not the other way around with her needing his help, because he wasn't even much of a fighter early on. Xander had to go and get him.
Hell yes, what an unexpected yet pleasant surprise! That's my morning sorted.
Haha ur little intro dance makes me smile every time 😅
I want to see a super cut of Buffy reactors specifically reacting to the theme tune. So many seem to dig it.
The point is Angel says the world wants him dead, and Buffy says she doesn't know what proof he needs, then the sun doesn't rise all day long. The world wouldn't LET Angel end himself.
I think xander is a big missed opportunity, i thnk delving into his flaws would make his character more likable rather than him being kinda a jerk and it just moving on. His hate for Angel should have been more tied to having to kill a close friend in the pilot, that should have a more lasting effect than (jealous cause likes buffy)
This is such an IMPORTANT episode
I think one of the reasons why Oz and Willow can work it out is because both of them are more mature and both of them feel like they're on equal level. Also, Oz is so mature that he is able to swallow his pride (which isn't easy) and go for what his heart tells him.
With Xander and Cordelia, it feels like they both have a lot of room to grow, personally, and it also feels like Cordelia may have "dated down" a bit, at least from her point of view. So to her, at least, it feels like a very big betrayal, which makes it so much harder to forgive.
It also feels to me that Xander didn't appreciate Cordelia enough. E.g. making googly eyes at Faith etc. While I think Willow did appreciate Oz more (which however makes it even worse that she cheated on him!).
And of course Willow'd had a crush on Xander since forever, but Xander hadn't reciprocated at all while Willow wasn't seeing anyone. Xander apparently is mostly attracted to people he shouldn't be... He hasn't had any good adult role models in his upbringing.
@@ernesthakey3396 Good point on Willow.
Tyler, I love how you're a champion for the depictions of men that challenge the stereotypes, that reject the image of 'what men are supposed to be like.' Oz so much represents that, and in this episode in particular. Thank you for calling it out. Giles is your favorite character (I'd have to guess), but Oz must be a top 3, at least...
I'm gonna miss watching you rock out to the theme song when you finish the series.
Halfway through and on the edge of my seat on whether you’ll make the connection to the series finale…
Great react. When the series of angel comes up. A lot of what you just discussed around Angel and his conscious person in charge and the fact he was an innocent victim comes up throughout the
Whole series especially seasons 4 and 5.
It's a more adult show. The accent gets better too
One of my favorite episodes and great reaction & insight.
That’s the real difference between spike and angel
Spike was a good man as a human, he had a good soul and his heart alway kept some of the compassion.
Angel was mean soul as a human. The gypsys had to cruse him with guilt and compassion when they returned his soul the added the good.
He loves her.
I won't say anything about The First, but sidestep that by saying there are many episodes of Buffy that seem to be one-offs, but have far reaching consequences, the Halloween episode from S2 is a good example, where Xander's acquired knowledge was the key to stopping the Judge. There are many episodes of Buffy that fit that category, this might be one of them, or one might have slipped past us pretty recently, who knows?
Oz and Cordelia have different personalities and the relationships they had with Willow and Xander were also very different.
Particularly, Cordy had to deal with the public humiliation on top of the pain of impalement which wasn’t conducive to her being in a forgiving mood.
Oz being deeply self reflective and unaffected by popular opinion and an apparent advanced maturity was perhaps able to find his way to forgiveness that way.
I think the plot and characterization were well set up for these results to seem like natural outcomes.
Very important episode for the future reference.
Snow saves Angel from suicide. Not from The First Evil. People don't always get that the snow saves him, and even when they do, they sometimes mistakenly think it saves him from The First. The First was fine with what Angel was going to do, but it was no longer trying to kill him.
You know, regarding Xander and Willow, it was two teens with a past (since young childhood) who thought they were going to die. Xander appeared to be dying, and they kissed. Unless that was supposed to be interpreted as being caught in the act of something more serious, I am not sure I understand why either the other boyfriend or girlfriend couldn't cut them a little slack for understanding that they were severely stressed, assuming they would be killed. But it has been MANY years since I was a teenager, or even one playing one on a television show, so perhaps I'm being too forgiving.
That rant aside, Giles is justified in both his distrust of and dislike of Angel.
That said, Angel is forgetting that there is a difference between himself with a soul and without one.
The Buffy "dream" shared with Angel is sort of significant, but I shan't spoil.
…Alright Comment Section! Ten more minutes to acknowledge Buffy’s next level of Spider-Man Quips in this episode…then you all need switch off your devices and go ta bed! 😏😆
So Tyler's prediction is the First is the Big Bad...... Interesting 🤔
Absolutely. It's the difference between Oz and Cordelia. Oz is ten times more mature than Cordelia. He had to be, with his condition, while Cordelia has always been a pampered princess at home and only just recently stopped being one of the Mean Girls at school. Forgiveness is not in her yet.
And I'm with you. Having a rough home life is not an excuse for how he treats people sometimes. Especially how he treats Buffy when he's mad at her. It gives off way too many "Good Guy" vibes, like an incel without the celibacy.
And with Angel, it's interesting. How someone was as a person informs the kind of vampire they are. Angelus was a lot nastier as a vampire than some other vampires because he was a nastier *human* than other humans. He was a woman-using, violent, drunk. Not *completely* irredeemable because the guilt of what he'd done without a soul basically tormented him into being a better person once he had a soul forced on him, but he was still a piece of garbage as a human. And I will say no more until later seasons because spoilers and all that.
There are three characters in this series that I adore past all reason 1) Giles, 2) Oz, & 3)… well, the third hasn’t shown up yet.
Wonderful reaction, as always 💜🌈🧛🏻♀️
🧙♀️?
@@xyex 😘
@@chrisleneil Ya got good taste. 😏
You are too funny with your intros. Hope your finger is better. Lol
Hello, if you don’t mind, can you do a movie reaction on a movie called, 1492: Conquest of Paradise.
Adventure/Drama (1992). It stars Gérard Depardieu, Siqourney Weaver, Armand Assante. It portrays a version of the travels to the New World by the Italian explorer Christopher Columbus and the effect this had on indigenous peoples.
Directed by Ridley Scott.
I love both shows but what you say about Angel and Angelous is ultimately why I like the Angel show even better than Buffy. While Buffy is basically a good and bad, black and white character as a lead. Angel is more shades of grey. He’s trying to be good while at the same time he always has a demon lurking inside trying to get out. Where Buddy just a superhero basically trying fight evil, Angel is a former demon who is fighting as a choice and for redemption as opposed to Buffy who is fighting because it’s “her destiny”. I honestly don’t love Angel as a character on Buffy because he exists as a tool to serve Buffy’s coming of age story. But on his his show he’s a former monster fighting for redemption with a demon inside him. And for me that’s a more inserting lead character for a show honestly.
Nightmares about the accent..😅😂😂
I hope you watcg Angel the spin off, its pretty fantastic.
❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍
I think part of the reason Willow is treated differently to Xander is that she takes accountability for her actions and is openly apologetic. She tries to make amends with Oz and respect what he needs going forward (space etc). With Xander he hasn't really taken responsibility at all, he's defaulted to projection and lashing out. When Cordelia is rightly angry at him he strikes back instead of apologising and acknowledging the pain he caused her, and even tries to get Buffy and Willow on 'his side'.
I understand Xander's home life isn't great (although I don't feel like we're given enough of an insight into it to fully understand him) but neither is Willow's, albeit in a different way. Also, understanding why someone acts badly doesn't change that they're still acting badly - it provides context but doesn't excuse the behaviour itself.
Well said.
It did take Oz making it clear to Willow in an earlier episode, when she wanted to talk to him, that he told her what he needed, he needed space and time to figure stuff out. "I can't help thinking that the reason you want to talk is so you can feel better about yourself. That's not my problem."
So she did need some reinforcement to respect Oz's wishes, but that did work, and after that she let him have what he needed.
Xander left a bazillion messages etc; rather than leaving Cordy alone, he obsessed over her, and as you noted, rather than take responsibility, then turned to projection and lashing out. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Oz is a year older, but from clues in the show - seems to be living alone, no mention of parents, has his own can etc. - he also seems very independent and definitely even more mature than his extra year would imply.
Willow seems a little mature for her age, and has parents who seem to treat parenting as a label experiment.
Xander, most of the time, seems less mature than his age, and has a lot of hinted at issues in his home life, and seems to exemplify the concept that boys mature more slowly than girls, while Oz is the exception to the rule.
Pick your poison, the accent or the wigs? 😆
YAAAYYY
Totally agree that while I sympathize with Xander's dysnfunctional/abusive home life, it doesn't excuse his poor behavior. Many of us grew up in similar or worse households without treating our loved ones the way he treats the female scoobies.
How does he shave. Lol. Still wonder. Cuz he has smooth skin always. Lol. But he had a stash back in the day. Huh.
A barber?
I will say Ty that Buffy and it’s spin-off, Angel, are explorations of theories of existentialism and absurdism-that despite the seeming purposelessness of existence, people are challenged to create meaning through the infinite freedom of choice or action.
But if you find tracking these themes through the franchise tiresome, you might be interested in media that gives a different perspective about the same dilemma. For that, I would recommend you watch Neon Genesis Evangelion, which some people have argued is an exploration of structuralism-the theory that limitations of meaning and possibility create a sense of meaning to the universe and our experience of it. Are these ideas not mutually exclusive but in fact related? You’ll have to let us know your thoughts.
I agree! ☝️ Always call people out of bad behavior - even if you understand their background. Angel has a lot a baggage 🧳 to walk around, but he is still not treating people bad, if he can avoid it. If Xander wants to overcome his problems, he should face his family at home. Not his found Family.
Thank you for calling out Xander's poor behavior!
As well as giving him props when he steps up.
I'm really looking forward to watching your insights to this movie. For me personally I don't like this episode and skip it on every rewatch so haven't seen it in a loooooong time
I wonder if whedon wished his wife would think like Oz after he was found cheating. .
Harsh to bring it out but its legitimately all i can think about during the cheating arch that whedon himself was unfaithful
He often writes Xander with himself in mind, so, hard to tell.
@@zenithquasar9623 people make far too much of that little remark he made about Xander all those years ago.
I think we forget that though Angel is old and Buffy isn’t this is both of their first love. Angel hasn’t ever loved a partner either as a human or a vampire. So at times it may hit you as melodramatic teen relationship but maturity wise they are roughly equal and it’s big for them. Human Angel was self indulgent and immature, then he was an arrogant vampire, then caught in a loop of despair about things he’d done as Angelus. Getting himself together to help the slayer is him finally maturing and Buffy because of her nature and calling is more mature for her age. (Not in anyway saying a 25 year old and 16 year old should be dating, or 100+. Angel isn’t human thought, or real so I can let it go)
It's likely not entirely intentional on the writers behalf, but its interesting how all the people closest to Buffy are shown having their own real struggles. Xanders seemingly abusive homelife, Willow's borderline criminally neglectful parents and severe imposter syndrome, Faiths lack of support and apparent self isolation due to her self loathing, Angels tortured guilt. Yet the only character Buffy generally actively tries to help with their struggles is Angel, the one among them who most directly affects her. For all that Buffy is a hero, she has her failings.
I don’t think the point is that human Angel was comparable to demon Angel. The point is that he was never a good person and it’s disingenuous to hide behind that to distance himself from the demon. When he had a soul as a human, it never motivated him to do good.
I think it is comparable though considering the First is specifically bringing up his human self to make a point that he never did 'good' or has never been worth anything/worthy of redemption in the here and now. My point is that his deeds as a human are in no way comparable to the deeds he's actually being accused of here/why we're here at all, in what he did as Angelus specifically. Because the First specifically uses his human life as fodder to pile on the point, I think it's important to actually say 'no that's not fair'. That is entirely the point.
Just because someone was lazy or a womaniser or drank a lot doesn't make them actively a bad person either. Maybe you're speaking from additional knowledge I don't have, but from what I've seen so far of human Angel he's not done anything *bad*. Just because he's not actively being a shining beacon of good to those around him, it doesn't warrant anyone coming and saying 'hey you deserve this mental torture today now in this present specifically because of your human life too'. These are important lines to draw, I think, when analysing all of this, and I'd say it's disingenuous to ignore that.
I don't remember this episode (maybe I missed it in original broadcast? Don't think I ever rewatched s3+4)… Some stuff here I didn't expect to see so early.
Come on! Delete this?! What possibly made you think spoiling future first appearances is fine? He's only seen 2 episodes after this and neither made him aware of the first in this episode.
@@brianmiller3529 Edit: I now realise the comment you responded to has been edited - but your comment now does spoil more. Sorry dude, you should edit or delete.
Not my favourite ep by a long chalk. A bit shmaltzy for my taste. Lore wise, it's undoubtedly important, and there are a few wonderful character insights, but the snow at the end? Saccharine.
Not a great episode to me, in fact I forget it even exists until a reactor gets to it lol. But it's one to get thru. RIP Buffys bangs
The most infuriating thing about this show to me is the different answers we get about vampires. Is it that a demon totally takes over and the human is gone but the demon just has his memories? Is it that the human is still there but the demon just takes away any shred of conscience? Can it be both or either or neither depending on which specific human and which specific demon you get? Once we get a lot more of Spike's backstory, and we see a few other vampire characters in upcoming seasons, it will be interesting to get your take on the contrast.
I've honestly never been a big fan of Angel/Buffy. David and Sarah did an amazing job in that scene and tugged on the old heartstrings, but the whole time I am always rolling my eyes because it screams of dramatic teenagers in their first love who think nothing else can ever ever ever compare.
You’re definitely not alone in finding it frustrating! Personally I love it, it grounds things in reality for me. Why would anyone know for sure? Everyone would theorise and what was understood would be misunderstood. Bias is a part of it too. It makes sense the watchers teach the most black and white version, but for example, the vampires are more likely to disagree and think they’re the same person as when they were human, but with a demon inside and no sense of guilt (which seems to be what a lack of a soul means in the Buffyverse)
@@tanyaisonYT I'm not really frustrated by the different theories or versions characters in the show have about it. That all makes sense, as you said. I'm frustrated that the actual actions (the show, don't tell parts) are internally inconsistent. Angel seems to be a case of a demon completely taking over and the actual person not existing in any capacity anymore, especially since the demon is exactly the same whenever his soul gets taken away a century later and hasn't developed at all with that additional 100 years of growth. But with other characters it is pretty clear that they are pretty much exactly the same as they were before being turned, other than not having a conscience anymore, and even getting their souls back a century later doesn't meaningfully change their character (other than piling on guilt for their actions). One of Buffy's classmates who gets turned who I won't name because spoilers follows the Spike model--exactly the same as they were before being turned, no meaningful difference at all, and in their case really truly no difference because they didn't even have much of a conscience when they were human.
The way I’ve always imagined the whole demon possession of vampirism worked is like an adlibs paper. The demon takes bits and pieces of who the human was to fill in the gaps and make the entire personality. For vamps like spike who had a pretty well defined self as a human u see that come through. Poetic romantic w serious mommy issues. While angel, who as a human was basically a drunk fuckboy, was easily more demon-ish.
personally I believe that the demon takes total control but it is bound to the constraints of it's new "prison" (aka the human brain it is now possessing), forcing to demon to adapt the personality of the human it possesses.
@Henrik_Holst so Liam had the personality of a sadistic psychopath?
That’s the real difference between spike and angel
Spike was a good man as a human, he had a good soul and his heart alway kept some of the compassion.
Angel was mean soul as a human. The gypsys had to cruse him with guilt and compassion when they returned his soul the added the good.