Ayn Rand Fan Club 74: David Kelley on Propositions, Politics, and Shared Values
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.ย. 2024
- Atlas Society founder David Kelley joins Scott & William to discuss his new paper on Propositions. One issue that comes up is contrasting Dr Kelley's take on the unity of concepts from former Ayn Rand Institute board member Harry Binswanger. They also get into Dr. Kelley's take on the election and whether he sees today's left or right as the bigger threat. They also talk about his new project the Philadelphia Declaration about finding shared values with religious people for liberty.
Link to David's paper on Propositions:
www.atlassocie...
This paper of David’s bears the characteristic shimmering economy and clarity of his hard-worked thought. It includes, secondarily, relationships of elements in his Objectivist theory with some contemporary and classical philosophy as well as relationships (positive) of elements with a couple of Objectivist principal philosophers since Ayn Rand’s Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology (1966-67). It fits tightly with Dr. Kelley’s earlier papers on abstraction and with the book The Evidence of the Senses (1986) he made from his Ph.D. dissertation at Princeton a long lifetime ago. It is another splendid assembly engineered by David to fill one of the specific voids that Rand had acknowledged in the theory of knowledge she had innovated.
“To hold an unchanging youth is to reach, at the end, the vision with which one started.” -AR
20:04 i have a question about this too. When does the mis-identification of facts transform from a perceptual error to a cognative error?
In a simple example: a child learns about cats in a story book. One day, that child visits a zoo and sees a lion and calls it a cat. This might be considered a perceptual error.
Later on in life, the child grows up into an adult and buys a cat to bring home as a pet. The cat they brought home is in fact a lion, and the lion one day eats the adult. This might be considered a cognative error. The adult failed to grasp the essentials and to differentiate the concepts.
When should the adult have been expected to differentiate a cat from a lion, and was this in error or intentional self-deception?
They don't sell lions in pet stores. Can you create a believable mistake? What you describe is mostly an unbelievable conceptual error.
@williamswig 😁 the absurdity highlights the principle.
I think that the analogy of a person who believes that black lives matter but doesn't support Black Lives Matter also highlights the principle - that prepositions are meant to use facts as referents for the purpose of conveying ideas, but sometimes prepositions are used to mislead others instead.
Personally I am not a cat lover, but I have met people in real life who legitimately believe that bob-cats and panthers have the same nature as a domesticated house cat. It is not as far fetched as I would hope it was.
Are you going to link his paper or do I have to go hunting?
44:55 where?
www.atlassociety.org/concepts-and-propositions
Thanks
Duality = subject/predicate. Dichotomy = True or False. Propositions have a makeshift intellectual asymmetry (duality-dichotomy) to remember, vocalize or record. Propositions are worthy of thought, conversation or argument. Significance-meaning have a similar asymmetry. Values are formal asymmetries that involve interests/perceptions and purpose/actions. The asymmetry whether makeshift or formal is the source of value.
37:52 is the analysis and explication of prepositions a continuation of Ayn Rand's philosophy or a seperate field of knowledge?
This question in itself (closed objectivism) calls into question whether or not Ayn Rand identified concepts as particular entities only available to herself, or as universals.
"As a straight, white, cis-hetero woman" maybe Ayn Rand's experience is knowledge that me as a non-woman can never truly know. 😅
Closed objectivism invokes what we colloquially identify as standpoint epistemology. It assumes that there are no universals.
According to closed objectivists: What was true to Ayn Rand might not be true to others. It was not Ayn Rand's discovery in [P]hilosophy, it was merely Ayn Rand's subjective interpretation of what [p]hilosophy might be, if conceived from a specific point of view.
"A = A" according to Ayn Rand's opinion, but she leaves open the possibility that it may be otherwise.
It would be an application of her philosophy, if that's what you mean by "continuation." Of course it might be an erroneous application. It's validity must be evaluated based on the facts.
Listening to Kelley talk makes me realize why we don't engage with Kelley anymore.
Everything he wants from propositions is already in the concepts. The propositions are only true or false when they match the concept.
11:20 William got it
28:10... oh David... oh no...
Why "we" don't engage with Kelley anymore.
Perhaps you'd be better served using "I" instead of "we" when you're trying to hide tribalist loyalties as the real motivation for shunning.
@AynRandFanClub "tribalism" "tribalism" "tribalism"
You are obsessed.
There is a difference between allowing nonsense and tribalism. I am here. I am reading his paper. But dude is wrong and there is an actual reason he is not seen as a "leader" of this philosophy
Like saying that flat earthers should be allowed to be University physicists because if we don't let the flat earthers claim the earth is flat, then we are just being tribal. The only solution by your standards is to allow flat earthers to get PhDs for their youtube videos so that we don't fall into "tribalism" lol
This guy got old. I remember when the AS movies were coming out and he was doing the premiers I guess. We might get old...BUT NEVER JOHN GALT!!!!!
You don't have to dump out every piece of trash that comes to your mind, ya know? 💡
A revolutionary idea, I know.
@@exnihilonihilfit6316 Is that your measured philosophical analysis??? Or are you an easily offended cuvuint??