My Take On Noelle/Mayor/Dess Knight
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 พ.ย. 2024
- The Holidays are clearly important, the question becomes... Is this what they're important for?
Alvin Knight Theory (Where I go over my methodology): • My Take On Alvin Knigh...
Shadows On The Wall Theory: • SHADOWS ON THE WALL: A...
List of Darkner Origins: docs.google.co...
As always, please leave your thoughts/refutations/stuff I might have missed in support of this theory in the comments. I always love hearing about that kind of stuff.
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knight mayor = nightmare
nightmare in the shadow of the knight's hand
Nightmare knight
Night mayor knight
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that.
People also speculate Toby might bring back the Nightmare Knight leitmotif for the Knight fight, so that would contribute to the pun lol.
Hold on you actually might be on to something.
You could even say shes a Nightmare before Christmas (unfunny joke, I know)
@@TheSoulCalledZuzia THE SKELETON SNOWGLOBE FROM THE SPAMTON SWEEPSTAKES WAS A NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS ONE OH MY GOD
With Mayor Holiday and how she seems like she is filling the same role as Asgore: it would be really interesting if in the Snowgrave route we don't get a proper boss fight with her like Asgore. Pushing Noelle to just one shot her as a sort of last straw for making her into an obedient weapon
Oh Yeah, but where is the karmic punishment for infringing on the prophecy?
@@minestar2247That Sans would show up again. /j
@@minestar2247nothing the prophecy was never real
:)
I'd prefer not to have a rerun of undertale
"DID noelle is the knight"
This is the first time I've ever heard this theory/idea, and it sounds like "The knight is neither Gaster or Kris but a third more mysterious thing" but without any of the sauce
plus its "the evil split personality" trope, which is seen in a much more negative light due to our better understanding of DID and how harmful the trope is in media.
@@sarafontanini7051
People mistake Tobyfox for being a troll; he's not a troll, he's a trickster
Scott Cawthon is a troll because of how he likes messing with his fans when it comes to Fnaf (I'm not slandering him; that's bro, but it's a widely accepted truth of the fandom)
Tobyfox tricks us but will never subvert our expectations JUST for the fun of it
"Erhm the knight is actually Noelle's split personality!" would be trolling.
@@Sappysappster not just trolling, also bad writing
@@ajojofannnot just trolling and bad writing, but also not interesting at all.
The idea of a fountain pen used to make the dark fountains is smart lol
WOW THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ACTUALLY CALLING IT DID??? AND NOT DEMONIZING IT??? youre amazing thank you so much
the way you talk about it is actually accurate i have never seen a single other (singlet) youtuber, especially a theorist, talk about it correctly and nicely and all that IM SO HAPPY!!!!!!!!!
I've actually taken psychology courses and didn't just look it up online so that probably goes a long way 😅
Hopefully if people take one thing away from this video it's that.
@@guiltyflygon youre so kind and thats so cool of you!!! this made my day (★^O^★)
the Narnia connection is pretty Interesting, even if the roles are actually adjusted a little bit. Lucy was the first one to really get attached to Narnia's residents (With Mr Tumnus, a satyr who gets turned to stone for helping the kids.) ((Im pretty sure I'm remembering this right it has also been a while since I've seen/read Narnia)) as opposed to Susie's attachment to Lancer and Ralsei, the first two darkners we meet. However, the most important part of this parallel is that Santa is a character in Narnia that shows up to give everyone weapons. So, the real question is whether Asgore will reprise his role as Santa and give everyone swords.
Actually, now that I think about it, who gave Kris their Iconic Pie Knife? The Real Knife/Worn Dagger WAS meant for gardening...
Oh yeah! I forgot about the Sonata Claus part! That's definitely a big opportunity for some overlap.
@@guiltyflygon"Sonata Claus" sounds like some sort of music-powered alternate form of Santa
@@guiltyflygon I like the "Sonata Claus" name, even if it's a typo
Toriel is the knight (maybe). she actually has way more opportunity than you’d think. if the Knight is an adult then the first dark world has an added layer of creepiness from sneaking into the school, unless they are staff or a parent (at a PUSH). She can excuse herself to the supply closet literally mid lesson. She even has a reason to visit the library- accompanying classes for work, research (evidence she used library books to research parenting tips) and her genuinely bookish personality. My school in the 2010/00s also used the library for printing and copy facilities but that’s probably irrelevant
Her character hasn’t been elaborated on yet much but she’s immediately relevant to the story and characters, and can reasonably be expected to be present in all chapters
Now im thinking. Toby Fox has been working on optimization and even using a launcher so each chapter will pull from select files like it's its own game. Meaning a lot of things but in particular.
Characters without a text sprite or unique sound could in future chapters have such. Which does potentially eliminate the "they don't have a talk sprite" argument
kris and susie being where the hell are we'd to gotham and seeing "the (dark) knight" vs commissionerr gordon going to hometown and seeing that MULTIPLE HOLIDAYS REAL.
noelle is holiday, gilda is the knight.
This is what 2.5 years of no deltarune does to a deltarune fan.
“DELTARUNE NARNIA!”
Mayor using the Fountain Pen actually sounds sick!
Also the last 6 minutes of the video were complete unhinged crack & I couldn't love that more
A WEEK??? ONLY A WEEK????!!!?!?!? god must've been smiling down on me today
IKR such detailed and long video being released in a week is just mindblowing
Hell yeah I love to see you break apart the DID Noelle Knight theory. I think writing Noelle to have DID could be really cool! But there isn't much evidence of that in the game itself. Add in the fact that the way the theory is set up to play on some pretty awful tropes and it's blehhh. It's one of those things that I would like to see in a story, but the only way I'm probably going to see that with Deltarune characters is through fan works
Noelle does not have DID
Maybe Dess was the original main character until some weirdness happened, and Kris is the substitute?
That's an interesting thought. Sort of playing on "everything's the same but you don't exist"
The main points I want to bring up.
1. Holiday Family Ninja Style. IIRC, Noelle mentions this in the newest new girl? I've been thinking about it ever since sneaking released, because this is the second time the Holiday family has been associated with sneaking around. The mayor's secretary says she's been in her office all day (or the politics bear, once again my memory is poor). I wonder if the Mayor happened to use some of her family's signature sneaking style to leave without being noticed.....
2. Dark World Carnival Theming. I'm going to be honest here, I'm unsure how heavy Card Kingdom is on the festive theming. Bakesales can honestly happen anywhere and anytime, so Jevil's carousel is probably the main piece of evidence and that can be attributed to Jevil being a jester and inherently having carnival and circus themes on his own. I think Cyber World's heavy festival elements come from computer games, that manifest in the dark world as literal games and rides you might find at an amusement park. That's sort of what the Cyber World is- A giant, techy amusement park. Queen's mansion entrance is even based off that Disney thing where there's a giant version of Woody's face on the entrance. That being said, I'll play Jevil's advocate and say the Dark Worlds ARE all meant to be carnival themed... I guess we'll just have to see if this element of the dark worlds continues in chapter 3, in a fountain we know Kris made!
3. Rudy might be creating dark worlds in places he liked, to relive them before he dies. I don't believe in Rudy Knight but I've seen this motivation passed around and I figured I would bring it up.
4. Your Dess and Mayor H. sprites were really adorable!
5. I can't wait to subscribe to you once I finish reading Homestuck (you are pretty far ahead of me and I don't want to get recommended spoiler videos for now.) I would love to see your thoughts on Kris Knight or Asgore Knight at some point.
That's definitely an interesting Rudy motivation, I like that it's more centered on him than him serving someone else. That said, you'd think he'd want to take at least Asgore along with him to relive the good old days, but who knows.
I could definitely see that carnival theming being coincidence, but it does help Mayor Knight if that ends up being the case. I'd never even considered the Queen's mansion entrance being a reference to that lol.
@@guiltyflygon Yeah. I wonder if all the secret bosses will be somewhat carnival themed.
@@guiltyflygonIdk if this counts since Circus wagons are also toys, but the Circus wagons in the Card Castle basement are also carnival themed.
Also Tasque Manager could be thought of as a lion tamer, with the tasques being lions.
Deltarune also kinda feels as if Toby Fox watched Frozen and asked himself "But what if the younger sister was the ice witch instead of the older one?"
No… it doesn’t…
why did this convince me that rudy & mayor holiday are both working together as the knight
The Narnia comparison for Mayor Knight is pretty cool!
My theory, is that the Knight is actually Nightmare Knight, and Deltarune is a massive decoy for what it actually is: A Cucumber Quest revival.
:o
Rouxls Kaard is actually peridot in a costume speaking in a silly voice
Also, you do really good voices for the characters, especially berdly. You can really hear the quack.
Aw, thanks
"Does that make Kris the wardrobe?"
Well in a sense you are "wearing" Kris to interact with the world of Deltarune...
Hour long deltatune video I can finally eat
the narnia thing is super sick actually holy wow
I remember hearing someone say that lost girl is in sneaking because Kris is using the Holiday Ninja Style that they learned from Noelle. I think that’s cute.
That would be a funny way to explain it lol.
Re: hearing scratching in the code. There is scratching coming from Bratty's door. I always wondered if these are connected.
the brainrot its leaking it has even spread to the youtube side of theorys my god
Thanks for the donation!
Given Catti is apparently into dark magic I suppose it's possible. The issue is trying to decipher whether that line is a throwaway gag or important lol. If people's assumption is right and her and Jockington eventually show up in a Dark World we might find out then.
@@udram47thelowercaseguyI have a playlist of every deltarune theory. I can assure you the brain rot is terminal here.
If there may be an Undertale Knight Candidates video, may I pitch one?
Take a look at Alphys. As far as major Undertale characters go, she is... A little unusual in a lot of ways as a Knight Candidate.
Now, first, don't get me wrong - I feel like when i say this, people often assume I mean that I'm accusing Alphys of being this evil hack scientist who wants to end the world. And, no - Alphys is a good person through an honest reading of her character. But she is a good person who was delving into Determination without knowing the full scope of what she was doing when dealing with monster bodies and human souls, and so made some big mistakes. And that seems like it's a pretty noteworthy thing, given everything in Deltarune. If she is the knight, I don't think she would be an evil person who wants to end the world - she could have many motivations.
I'm also not saying her knowledge transfers 100% from Undertale to Deltarune. She could very well just be a schoolteacher here. But our reading of characters from Undertale does tend to inform our reading of them from Deltarune. Catty and Bratty were inseparable friends in Undertale, and that is sorta meant to colour how their rivalry is interpreted in Deltarune even as it's own thing. What I am saying, I suppose, is that there are aspects of her Undertale personality and story which should... Perhaps raise some suspicions, and be used to look more carefully at her, even if none of these individually mean 100% a correlation.
So - With that said...
Thematically. Alphys is a character who, in Undertale, is strongly associated with Determination Experiments. She is the only Determination Expert we 100% know is a Determination Expert (Though we can reasonably assume Gaster is one too, by now - see Entry 17 which seems to describe the opening of a Dark World.)
If this is reflected in Deltarune, where Determination opens Dark Fountains..? Well, there's an obvious connection there. If Alphys is still someone who has studied determination, she may be one of the few people who are actually able to open a Dark Fountain in the first place.
She is also a character who is willing to lie, and conceal aspects of herself. This makes her a known liar, and someone who's words we may want to doubt at times. We even see her willing to lie in Deltarune, - She covers for Kris being weird, she says outright she's the 'cool teacher' and won't report everything, she lies about her age to post anime reviews in the Teen Zone, and when she gets flustered talking about if Asgore has a crush on her, she changes the subject and pretends like it was about something else. Half-truths are actually a little habitual, for her.
She has a thematic connection with Spamton as well. The fight is a call-back to Mettaton, and her chapter of Undertale. Note that she's the one who designed the Neo body in Undertale, not Mettaton. She is the one who keeps talking to you through the phone, and she is the one who gives you Shoot Mode. That all might mean nothing - for all we know, next chapter's secret boss is going to be a Papyrus call-back, or an Undine call-back. But with what we have now, it's at least worth mentioning.
In one dialogue, she mentions that she has studied parallel universes and believes in them, and that there is someone in a parallel universe who thinks she is cool and interesting. This is perhaps notable in that game set in some kind of parallel universe.
More directly related to Deltarune, she has an interesting parallel role in both. In Undertale, she takes over as royal scientist folloiwng Gaster. In Deltarune, she takes over from famous author Gerson. The portrayal of both is a little bit of having big shoes to fill - Gaster is described as brilliant, and Gerson a famous author. I find it interesting in particular that Alphys follows in the footsteps of an author here, when the Dark Worlds are so often interpreted to be a commentary on the nature of fiction,
And, perhaps most interestingly and uniquely? She is the only major character in Undertale who remains entirely unfought. A Genocide Route player in particular seems to have unfinished business - if you abort a run at the last possible moment she calls you and ends with "Just daydreaming here, but I should have killed you when I had the chance."
Which... Given the kind of person you are in a Genocide Run? Just what can Alphys do?
Mechanically, we don't see anything even really hinting at what Alphys is capable of. This means that if she IS the knight, there would be a wider choice of options than perhaps any other Undertale character.
But that's all vague thematic parallels. I think, on her own and just with what we have in Deltarune, this is also compelling...
For the "Who," Alphys is a Lightner. But she is a lightner with quite a questionable life. In this timeline, she has no idea who Undine is beyond a police officer she things is attractive. She does not know Mettaton. Her friends seem to be Asgore and Toriel, which must be awkward given their divorce. She is isolated enough that she pretends to be a cat and likes hanging out in an alley full of trash cans. She is desperate for her students to like her, and is obsessed with fantasy and anime and media.
This is the profile of an adult who would LOVE a world of magic and RPG mechanics.
If it's worth anything, she's also some kind of triceratops or lizard... I suppose I could see her having "armor."
The When and Where - Alphys is sorta notable in that she is not only someone who COULD go to any of the dark world locations we have seen, but is someone who DOES. She goes to the libarby to post anime reviews, she is a teacher at the school. She belongs so much that she could walk right past anyone without arising suspicion at all.
She is also confirmed to be near the location of each fountain at each time we first see them - we even see her talking to Toriel in the hallway near the exit before they presumably leave for the day, before she returns to her classroom after we futz around in the dark world for a bit. By then, Toriel has left... It's a window where she could have walked in and opened that fountain.
Beyond that, she directly sends Susie and Kris to the dark world in the closet. She ignores Noelle practically begging to go with Susie instead to do this (Though, a responsible teacher would probably not send the two kids with a crush to the closet on school hours.) And if you think about it... She never got chalk. If you guys went hookie, wouldn't Alphys just kinda... Go to the closet after you? Or send another student?
She would also probably know Berdly and Noelle, the classes' overachievers, would go to the computer lab first thing on the weekend.
It is within her means to plan all this out.
The why could have multiple answers. I think the simplest answer is that - like when she was delving into Determination in Undertale - she simply does not know about the Roaring and the ramifications of using determination too much, and like Susie believes that the Dark World is just better than the Light World. But maybe she is delving into this to improve her students, to find Dess - who she could be an old teacher or even classmate of. Or maybe she's even doing it all for someone - that person in a parallel world who thinks she is cool and interesting. She may even be doing it all as an experiment.
I could see a knock against her being that it seems out of character for her to actually want to cause the Roaring. But all these explanations do explain why she isn't just opening like five fountains at once, so I guess it's a tradeoff.
As for the how... Well, she seems like she has the know-how if she is one. Perhaps she would inject pure determination into the ground like her Undertale self did with Flowey. She seems like the type who would have some mall ninja sword in her apartment. But I guess she has no obvious implement, in the end.
Aaand yeah. If anyone reads, than you for your consideration, haha
I'm thinking the next video is either going to be Kris Knight or "Undertale Knights" and Alphys has always been at the top of my radar for that for a lot of the reasons you mention.
Alphys has a big impact on the story of UNDERTALE, being that she was the one who created all the Amalgamates and Flowey, the central antagonist for the majority of the plot. Asriel wouldn't have even been able to come back and break the Barrier if it wasn't for her! It would be another neat parallel if her DELTARUNE incarnation also had a similar effect, through something like creating the Dark Fountains or working together with the one who does.
@@guiltyflygon
Aha, awesome.
I feel like whenever I see Alphys come up a lot of people seem to be like "What? Why? That seems so far fetched." which seems like such a strange reaction to me
Weirdly, Rudy was mentioned indirectly in the Undertale Alarm clock plans.
So I guess it was foreshadowing 🤷
Yeah, there's definitely some Deltarune foreshadowing in the alarm clock dialogue.
The exploitation is consensual, please continue making more DR/UT videos.
That Mayor Holiday police theory does kind of puts Toriel’s call going through to Undyne/Blooky in a new light…
"Rudy the Undying...?" Honestly, the concept isn't that bad, and strangely, it could tie into two concepts I've heard in the theory space, one of which being Alvin Knight.
The other concept is about what the Dark Worlds represents. That theory is that each Dark World represent a form of escapism, and its possible extreme. I don't really remember the details of that theory, but I'm pretty sure :
-Card Kingdom was about games (playing and playing to escape the harshness of the world) or imagination (getting lost in your bubble because of a bad environment, ending with you not being able to tell fact from fiction. Could be supported by Susie's comment, at the end of Chapter 1 : "Was it real ? Like, it wasn't a dream ?" [or something akin to those lines])
-Cyber World was internet, videos, videos games. It's a bit similar to Card Kingdom, but the "end goal" would be more akin to prioritising the virtual realtiy, with you stopping taking care of yourself, stop eating or eating unhealthy things, etc...
What could tie "Dark Worlds are about escapism", "Rudy the Undying" and "Alvin Knight" (though Alvin Knight isn't necessary) would be like : As the town is pretty religious (or at least the adults), the monster funerals would probably be held in the church, before being buried in the graveyard. And religion could be another way to "escape" reality. All it would take is a Dark World being opened in the church, while Rudy's funeral is underway, and boom! Rudy the Undying. Though maybe it's not gonna be the case as Undyne the Undying. Instead of being an enemy, Rudy could be an ally (in the same way as Toriel is probably going to be an ally in Chapter 3). Could even happen in Chapter 5, regarding one point in your Alvin Knight (Kris opening the Chapter 3 Dark World could be an outlier for Chess Theory, putting the Rook character in 4, and the Knight/Bishop Alvin in 5)
I never thought to tie the religious stuff to the theme of escapism before, it kind of makes sense!
Ralsie(?) didn't mention The Roaring(?) until Queen was getting… Birdly? to try and open a dark fountain.
It can be presumed that Ralsie(?) heard Queen mention the Roaring Knight earlier in Chapter 2, after being made a servant; very likely when the player sees her monologing(?) about it.
People seem to put a lot of weight on "The Roaring" - but what if Ralsie(?) just… made up on the spot to stop another fountain made at that moment?
It would explain why he didn't mention until then. Maybe.
It's definitely possible that he's making it up as he goes, but of course until proven otherwise I'm inclined to take his word.
counterpoint: that'd be lame and remove any stakes from the story. it also removes any reason ralsei would be opposed to the dark fountains beyond "ehhhh promphecy"
Or,
Ralsei thought Queen and most other darkners knew about the Roaring, but they didn't.
Except he kind of does, at the beginning of the game. In the legend. He says that when too many Dark Fountains are opened "a terrible calamity would occur". He just doesn't call it "The Roaring".
Not only it's the intro (for the player), you can also have Ralsei tell you (or rather, Kris and Susie) this prophecy in game.
I think in the prophecy he tells at the start of chapter 1, the terrible calamity that he mentions is The Roaring, it's just that he didn't go into detail about it until it was absolutely necessary
There is the implication that that one book about drawing at Kris's house was somehow related to Dess (I heard this a while ago so sorry if I forgot but it was something to do with how many days late it was seeming to work with it being around the time of spelling bee) so looking for Dess there makes sense.
I'm pretty sure it was a book with purple dragon as its cover, so it's more related to Susie than anyone else
I've seen people propose at some point we will encounter darkners of Dess's items in the Dark World, and they will give us lore about her. Maybe an Darkner based off emergency alerts in chapter 3....
Yeah i think HalfBreadChaos talks about this in one of their videos
I have vague memories of watching a theory related to this as well, like the idea that maybe it's something that reminds Asriel of Dess and that's why he'll never return it...
Though there's equal possibility that Asriel is just too embarrassed because there's a scantily clad dragon woman on the front. This IS the guy who sought holy redemption for dropping Yoshi in a pit in a video game lol.
Funnily enough though, as you're talking about the dissociative behavior thing for Noelle, I couldn't help but thing about Moon Knight (the Disney + show) and I couldn't help but draw some parallels in my mind lol
Marc Spector, is out playing with his younger brother out by a river after his mom forced him to. As Marc is begrudgingly playing with his brother when his brother falls into the river and drowns (at least that's what's implied I believe) and as Marc comes back without his brother, his mother is understandably upset as by looking at Marc's face, she knows what happened (ties to Dess being murdered or doing missing).
After this, his mother starts abusing him, blaming Marc for his brother's death (similar to how The Mayor is said to be abusive towards Noelle) and much like Noelle's situation, Marc's father, while not having that big of a role, he is present and isn't abusive towards Marc, somewhat similar to Ruddy.
To cope with his mother's abuse towards him, Marc develops a personality that he names Steven Grant, named after a TV character that he liked. Basically the way I see it, Steven is the kind of kid that Marc maybe wishes he was (sort of what everyone thinks about Kris and Ralsei's whole situation), Steven cleaning stuff up after Marc threw something after getting mad at his mother, and just overall being a good kid and person.
And considering that the superhero name that he just so happens to have is Moon KNIGHT, you can kind of see the connection (Note: I'm not saying that this is where people got the connections from, but the Moon Knight series start March of 2022, not long after Chapter 2. I may have gotten things wrong as it's been a while sense I watched the show, this is just where my mind went to during this section of your video...while I would have usually let this slide to the back of my mind, the fact that there are several things that happen to be similar, at least to be, I thought that I would at least write it down in the comments).
Dang this is crazy, 2 in a row! I hope this continues, lol.
I've been thinking on this for a while now. I myself fall into the "Dess/Mayor is knight" camp, but I was mainly going off vibes. This helps with having a ground for these theories and exploring other things I might have missed myself.
Also, I've read both narnia and most of the lotr books and it never crossed my mind with the connections here. The narnia connections are so obvious now I can't believe I actually missed them lmaooo
Another video poster on my shift. Blessing!
I think if one of the Holidays were the knight they'd be the "Silent Knight" or the "Holy Knight" not "Roaring Knight"
you might be my favorite deltarune theorist rn :3 your videos are always peak and you always bring new stuff to the table!!
Adding that the first person they meet in Narnia is a goat man
I think if there’s a hospital dark world having Rudy as a boss only in the snow grave route which ends up with Noelle killing him would be very dark but cool
Especially because there’s multiple dialogues of Rudy joking that he’s gonna kick certain characters asses I think the character that deserves the biggest ass kicking is snowgrave kris
31:49 I disagree with this being a problem with Kris knight.
It’s 100% in character for Berdly to arrogantly go into a room with darkness coming out of it. Noelle would then timidly follow behind Berdly before BOOM, the ground falls out from beneath them.
I’m generally still a Kris knighter, I feel like it’s what the game is trying to imply, it’s foreshadowed really brilliantly by having Kris literally pull out the knife in chapter 1, then them being super tired in chapter 2, Alphys mentioning that they slept in class for longer than usual, which, they would be tired if they walked to the library and made a fountain. Then of course, all the diagrams Queen shows use a knife as the object, and knives are associated with Kris. Also, Kris plugs in the tv between chapters 1 and 2 which makes sense if they wanted to make a tv themed dark world the next day.
I’m gonna debunk some points against this real quick because I know I’ll see them in the replies
-Queen says the fountain was made “today”!
This is true, however if Kris went out at like 2 AM to make the fountain, then the fountain indeed was made “today”
-King doesn’t recognize Kris but he met the knight!
We don’t know if king ever met the knight. He knows of the knight and holds them in high regard but we have no reason to believe he directly met the knight.
-Noelle and Berdly’s books were open on the table, that means they were studying when the fountain was made!
No, they aren’t. The books are closed. It’s very possible that Noelle or Berdly just felt around the room, set the books on the table, and then fell into the dark world.
-The closet says “a large person could easily fit inside”, this means the knight hid in there!
Actually, I think this dialogue is referencing Giga Queen. That closet is most likely cyber city, and Giga Queen is a large person. Most of the flavor text in the computer lab makes references to the cyber world, like how Kris feels the trash can doesn’t have friends, and trashy was like “I have lots of friends”.
-Kris can’t live for a long time without the soul! They couldn’t have left their house and went all the way to the library.
Yes, I agree. Kris is generally depicted as very unstable and limply without the soul. This is why I think they took the soul with them. Let me explain. The birdcage is in a wagon, and I feel like that’s significant. Why would the wagon be there, thematically, if it wasn’t there to be moved. I think Kris pulled the wagon along with them when they went to the library to open the fountain, that way they had a “plan B” for if they started dying.
Sorry for the long winded comment, I’m like number one Kris knight defender lmao.
i really like this evidence, i think it makes good points! but i am curious about the dialogue when you defeat jevil, its been a little bit since ive looked at it but it references the knight and atleast implies if not outright states that jevil has seen the knight, im wondering if im remembering this wrong or if you have a counterclaim for it :3?
I feel Kris *can't* be the one who made Chapter 1's Dark Fountain because when they saw the ominous darkness coming out the door, they backed up (twice lol), as if they were scared. If they made the Dark Fountain, they would have no reason to be scared, and I don't think they would pretend to be scared, nobody is gonna think "Oh, why aren't they scared? This is obviously their fault then..." lol.
Also, Kris being the Knight is just so contradicting to the plot the game have presented us. Like, they're one of the three heroes of the prophecy, and they are also the one who is making what the heroes are meant to banish??? Then what is the goddarn point of the prophecy if the Knight is also one of the heroes? It just doesn't make sense for me.
You're so good at these! Please make more and more❤
The Noelle one sounds forced as hell a lot so I'll discard it easily ngl lol
A video on Papyrus knight would make me very happy
The Narina comparisons are interesting, but the Problem with Susan is more complicated than you present. Susan didn't return to Narnia at the end because she didn't "believe in Narnia anymore" and had moved to America. Its allegorical parallel is that Susan became a worldly person, caring more about riches and popularity than about her family or her faith. It wasn't cuz "she be kissing the boys".
This was called the Problem with Susan because it feels unfinished and unforgiving for Susan to be left alone in the world with no hope for heaven (her family go to Narnia after dying in a crash).
Lewis wanted to write the story of how Susan lives on and repents, but it wouldn't have been a Narnia book since it would "be a story for adults, not for children".
Not sure any of it parallels to Susie. She is definitely the rebel child, but Deltarune flips the expectation with her like it does for many things: she's kind and loyal and wants friends, despite acting the opposite. Like how "darkness" isn't evil, just the magical land of fiction - while the Angel's heaven is pretty bad. Or how monsters generally are just people, not evil creatures.
I don't see how Susan's character matches with Susie's at all, unfortunately.
To be fair, like I said, I'm only a casual Narnia fan so I've only really heard about it.
I still do see potential overlap there in your explanation though. The Dark Worlds are essentially escapism, meaning if you dive into them too completely then you'd be separating yourself from your true path in the light world... Maybe? I dunno, it's all still pretty coincidental at best, but we'll see if more gets added onto the pile in ch3 and 4.
@@guiltyflygon Susie's big temptation is escapism... yeah you're right, that is an interesting parallel to Susan. And there are other peculiar references to the Christian faith itself throughout, which you touched on in your Alvin video. I'm puzzled by the story Alvin tells explaining to Asriel that "there is no sin, or confession, in our religion." The point of communion in real Christianity is to remember Christ's sacrifice and resurrection, and to accept the promise that he'll forgive us of sin as we repent. So if there's no sin in the Angel's religion, what's their communion for? Does the grape juice still represent somebody's blood?
I could chalk all of this up as Toby making nonsense references because it's a JRPG trope to use Christian symbols. At the same time, Toby doesn't usually just poke fun at a gaming trope -- he makes something new out of it.
I’m now a firm believer in narnia theory.
for rudy knight the how might be the angel doll because the top is sharp
here's a better refutation of noelle knight:
she doesn't ACT like she's familiar at all with the concept of the dark world. Hell, if her plan is to create dark worlds, WHY IS SHE ACTIVELY RUNNING AWAY FROM QUEEN (though one MIGHT argue she doesn't want queen to give her a robot face, I GUESS) since Queen's goal is to make dark worlds for that chapter? Hell part of what makes snowgrave interesting is how You can tell Noelle "it wasn't a dream" (which raises questions about how this'd affect things going forward) and she reacts in shock (if she's the knight why would she react like that?).
Basically noelle knight requires ignoring EVERY SCENE that suggests Noelle has NO IDEA where she is, how she got there or why she's there.
This is why people tend to reach for the theory of "alter" Noelle doing it through DID, which I don't buy as I mentioned.
I guess you could argue she's faking? But that does rob a lot of stakes from Snowgrave which feels silly.
wait kris being the wardrobe actually makes sense?? specifically because of the special attention brought to kris’s wardrobe in the room ralsei makes them. “you could wear whatever you want…”
I honestly think that the weird route is a pretty massive boon for Noelle being an antagonist if anything. One of the big things Deltarune fans will want out of a route like that that carries over a lot of the aesthetic stuff from Genocide in Undertale is a big crazy boss fight like Sans or Undyne, and the easiest way to make that come about is to let an already extremely strong character be that boss. Who's the only person we know to be a cut above every other character in raw strength? It's Noelle, of course, who starts out just as strong as your other party members with less combat experience and grows in power way faster than the others, weird route or not.
The biggest logistical problem that the weird route presents is the plot going extremely off the rails, so anything that can stay the same between both routes is a really great plus. So you're already naturally gonna have a showdown between Noelle and yourself in the weird route, and the best way to ease the pressure in a normal route is to also make Noelle a major roadblock in that route. In that normal route, we even have an easy reason for why she's so much weaker.
Narratively there's the problem that Noelle is pretty much entirely being manipulated by the player in Snowgrave, but frankly having Noelle, who's otherwise going to be highly important/have a lot of agency in the story, effectively being reduced to a zombie for most of the game would be... really uninteresting. Something more in parallel with a normal route, where Noelle gains significant agency over the game and stands up to the people she previously was controlled by, is both more interesting and paints a picture of Noelle as a much stronger character. And hey, there's a time gap between Chapter 2 and when we're next gonna see Noelle (since she's not in Chapter 3's dark world) and she was already thinking over what the hell is going on w/ Kris in Chapter 2.
That being said, though, Noelle probably still isn't the knight specifically. It's an extreme stretch for her to have made the first two fountains since she clearly knows nothing about them in Chapter 2 (there's just no way she can lie that well). Also, why would they foreshadow her to be the angel so thoroughly and then just reveal that she's the knight instead? (to be fair, the Angel and the Knight could easily be the Light World/Dark World ways to refer to essentially the same character, and Noelle knight still works under that provided not making the Ch. 1 and 2 fountains is a dealbreaker)
35:27 wanna point out here that Kris has a pencil equipped immediately when waking up in chapter 1. Noelle offers them a pencil you talk to her, but that proposal gets cut off, since your only option for dialogue is asking no to be her partner or not
I think that was just Noelle jumping to conclusions because that's the only reason Kris talks to her anymore (at that point), but it could mean more.
Lore of My Take On Noelle/Mayor/Dess Knight momentum 100
MY PREDICTION!!!
CHAPTER 3
* Tenna (TV Guy)
* Secret Boss: Mike (Off-Camera Boom Mike Which is broken and thrown away)
* Worlds are city (Suziezilla!!), The weather, & a cooking channel
* Tenna betrays the fun gang and wants to film their death for content
* Toriel, Napstablook & Undyne are there
CHAPTER 4
* Light-world focused
* Go to the Holiday house and learn more about the Holidays + Dess' dissapearance.
* Open a secret dark world in Dess' room and it leads to a Christmas-themed lightner where a Elf on the Shelf who looks like Dess is the hidden/main boss.
CHAPTER 5
* Toriel, Kris, Suzie, Asgore, Mr. & Mrs. Holiday go to church with Pastor Alvin
* A Dark fountain is opened in the confession booth and everyone goes in
* You learn more about the Knight, and find out that both Asriel and Dess are trapped in a Dark World somewhere. Kris knew Asriel was going missing and he told Kris to cover for him until he came back. Kris opened the Ch. 3 Dark World to look for Asriel, and wanted help from Toriel & the police to find him. He is not in that dark world
* The person crying for help in the code is Asriel
CHAPTER 6
* Toriel, Suzie, Noelle, & Kris search Hometown and open many mini-dark worlds in hopes of finding Asriel, Dess, and/or the Knight.
* Find multiple Shadow Crystals and make a weapon/tool to find them. (You get the true ending and a special weapon if you have beaten all of the hidden bosses, or did the Weird route.)
* Open the Dark World in the bunker. Chapter Ends
CHAPTER 7
* Explore an abandoned dark world that's science themed, and you find Asriel. He tells you that he was going to run away with Dess in the dark world because they were upset with their lives but they got stuck.
* They explore the dark world and find Dess, but the knight prevents them.
* Turns out that Rudy didn't have cancer but was horribly wounded in the dark world. Mayor Holiday (The Knight) was opening dark worlds to find a cure and free Dess.
* They have to fight Mayor Holiday, let Rudy die, and leave Asriel and Dess in the Dark World, they close the fountain with all of the characters in the fountain and cause The Roaring.
* Dragon Blazers is based off the Dark World Mr. & Mrs. Holday explored together.
* The timeline is reset once they close the fountain in the dark world and they have repeat the cycle over and over again. The only ones who know about the loop are Seam, Jevil, Spamton, Mike, Elf Dess, Fallen Angel (Secret Boss of Church), The Knight, Dess, Asriel, & Ralsei.
What if Rudy is a darkner and his sickness is due to him being away from the dark world?
What if Rudy and Asgore have been to the dark world before looking for Des, and he contracted something there? The roaring knight is the mayor still looking for Des after they failed and no one really knows what happened?
I think Toriel will recognize going to the dark world in chapter 3 and have to admit it to Kris
I didn't think of it but it would be funny if he was a horse mare in nightmare
Kris is the wardrobe bc things go in a wardrobe and is (the player) go in Kris LMAO
I guess you could make the argument that Kris is the "look" we as the player are wearing lol
I don't think Dess is the knight, but it would be kind of a mother 3 reference if it was dess or asriel. With Lucas's brother being the masked man.
I thnk i said this in another vid but jsut to be sure cause I am forgetful: King didn't NECESARILY say he loves the knight. at msot all he said is that the Knigth EXISTS and will raise up dark fountains, none of his words actually involve him saying he even LIKES the Knight
I also have a theory that the knight might look like a giant to King and Queen (perhaps the pair saw them in the real world as their dark worlds were still forming, so the Kight didn't quite transform or enter the dark world themselves), so the knight may look different jsut from that eprspective (as further evidence, if the Knight were holding a knife in the real world it may look more giant and sword like to Queen in this scenario).
there's also the fact that, as shown via the video queen has in her castle and the cliffhanger of chapter 2, a HUGE, HEAVY fog fills and covers everythign to the point you can't SEE the Knight's face, so perhaps King and Queen simply don't know what the Knight LOOKS LIE because they were covered by fog.
just my two cents as to how King could follow a Lightner despite hating them.
(also its clearly a lightner, it being a darkern raises too many questions and breaks too many established rules now)
So, just to lay out my points about King:
-It isn't so much that he likes the Knight, rather it's that he doesn't hate them. King has stated that he hates all Lightners and is mad at Lancer for working with them, so if the Knight is a Lightner it'd be nice if there was some sort of explanation for that.
-The points about the fountain obscuring Queen's view are very specific to her situation, as the Knight never entered the Cyber World. That's why Queen doesn't even know what they are. Seam suggests something much different in CH1 when they describe the Space King being put into power. So, while it's possible that the Knight didn't enter there as well it's never confirmed directly like in CH2, which meta-textually is seemingly meant to draw a difference between them.
-King's throne room is covered in battle damage, suggesting a fight broke out when he tried to usurp the others, perhaps with the help of the Knight as a 3 on 1 fight seems like a big ask, even for him.
I do think the giant idea makes sense though, King might even think the Knight is a Titan or something.
36:20 ...so you could say she would have... an Icedagger? *crowd goes silent and starts booing* i mean from the hit Roblox game Sword Fight on the Heights! *crowd pulls out tomatoes and throws at the stage*
(Re: The ending part about the potential Narnia references): whaT IF RALSEI IS LIKE MR. TUMNUS ACTUALLY OMG (Though its still not lost on me that he's, yknow, a _reindeer_ & all... Much like... A Certain Family Of Sorts... but still lmao)
That could make some sense as Ralsei is the first Darkner we meet like Tumnus was the first Narnian. Also, Tumnus is a Satyr, a half-human half-goat... If the theory of Ralsei being Kris's imaginary Dreemurr-sona is true that you could say the same of Ralsei in a way.
Something I noticed is that the start of lost girl has the same melody as a Yume Nikki song
In the same way that it was Asgore than flowey it will be KNIGHT then ANGEL.
Cool spritework bro
I also think It wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if kris was just the knight. people make a lot of assumptions about the knight like that the knight met the spade king in person. people mention the whole thing about characters being recognized but no one talks about the player robbing everything from like two rooms, and of course you just mentioned the hood disguise thing but hoodies also exist even if some disguised guy walked around at night sneaking into places it wouldn't be suspicious because almost everyone is asleep or at home so you wouldn't know where they were going.
No one asked but no one in my family or friendship groups know I'm cripplingly addicted to deltarune theory videos and I think that's hilarious
56:58 they turn in swords and axes...
How do i know?
Cap n cake sell them, the mechasaber and... I don't Remember the other
Woah that was fast
Another banger I love this stuff
On the point of Noelle having no stake in the prophesy w/ Dess Knight, isnt there something about the "angel" in the prophesy? I've heard a lot about that being Noelle.
Also if you read this, I havent seen it from you if you've made a video about it but I'd be curious on your thoughts on Vessel Knight.
I moreso meant that if Noelle is creating these Dark World to live out a fantasy adventure with Susie, why would she not fit into the three heroes from the prophecy? Even if she is in reality related to the Angel's Heaven that would mean she's created a world where Susie has to destroy her dreams lol. It's not impossible, but it's something to consider for sure.
I plan to cover all the topics on the polls eventually which includes Vessel Knight, so stay tuned!
Btw if you do a Kris knight video please call out the nonsensical debunk people do on it “the books are open” they’re not. “They’re sitting in chairs” there are no chairs. “They woke up in a spot that doesn’t make sense.” So did Kris and Susie.
True, there are no chairs. But they are objectively sitting next to the books perfectly in front of the table.
Keep in mind that the characters don't even sit in chairs in the classroom, which is pretty weird... unless Toby wants you to believe they do and just didn't want to implement sitting sprites for some reason.
wrt "Noelle's Ws" section, noelle absolutely appears in chapter one! she's the entire reason we aren't a part of a group of 3 with berdly, as her inability to speak up for herself stops her from asking alphys about a group of 3. Likewise, she sets up some important Kris details about their shared history in the first chapter, even if she doesn't appear in the dark world
I meant mostly that she's not in the Dark World, as if she made the world herself to be a place to explore with Susie you'd think it'd feature her more, maybe offer her a role to play in the prophecy, etc.
Her directing people to the closet in ch1 is definitely a big plus for her though.
@@guiltyflygon that, and she seems to at the very least be foreshadowed to appear again in the future, though i think an L that might be relevant is that we don't *know* how much Noelle we're going to see in the future - it's possible this is the only dark world she enters before the climax, further hampering Noelleknight/Noelleangel.
wrt your mention of Mrs. Holiday fending off the Wet Nosed Bandits, i've seen it theorized by another channel here on youtube (TheSoph iirc? might've been a different channel) that it's possibly the ICE-E cryptid that Noelle's search history has results for - while it's just as likely that the presence of ICE-E is to do more with characterizing Noelle as slightly gullible/trusting in addition to her urge towards the creepy, I've seen some upsettingly compelling theories about the ICE-E cryptid thing actually having some disturbing weight. The theory goes essentially that Snowgrave is something Noelle might be interested in not just because of her proclivity for glitch hunting/channeling something unknowable, but that acquiring the power associated with the Snowgrave route is a means to the end of getting rid of the ICE-E cryptid that might be stalking her. Especially with how Noelle seems to have gone full blast on all those enemies in the beginning, then appeared to not know what was happening, we already know she has some form of dissociative amnesia during extremely stressful situations, it's possible that this power displayed is the power Queen saw, and the power she is learning to control to deal with something real and threatening in her real life, though that wouldn't entirely explain why she doesn't mention it during the post-bossfight "wouldn't it be great if the dark worlds were real" speech that she and susie have.
i'm gonna flip a biscuit, to quote halfbread, if this is real, but there's a lot more evidence than i want there to be for it to be fake.
Oh, separately, we don't technically *know* that Mayor Holiday owns Flower King, the letter is only signed "-C", so that's definitely something we should look into the second we get our grubby little mitts on ch3+4
in terms of final boss order it will be the knight then the roaring titans. like what????
Knightmayor is mostly the pet theory of ACDS, Andrew Cunningham's Discord Server. It's getting a bit of pushback nowadays with the content drought brainrot, but still holding strong as the default.
The biggest counterpoints to it there are "she's too fastidious to just LEAVE them somewhere" (kinda sidestepping the parallels to fiction), "why would she ruin her town" (kinda sidestepping deltarune's theme of personalities not being obvious at first glance), and "someone in town would've mentioned the mayor hustling by multiple hours ago"
11:33 isn’t gaster the gaster of this game?
i find this comment funny for no reason
Your Mayor sprite makes her look like she has chipmunk cheeks. I actually thought she did for a while, until I looked more closely
Personally i dont think dess is missing. Apart of me feels like one night dess holiday had tried to run away from home. On this night asgore was out patroling hometown mistaking dess breaking out as someone trying to break in. Sadly asgore would accidentally take dess's life.
This would be tragic, but there is some evidence that Noelle is still searching for Dess to this day. In her Cyber City room (which Queen proclaims is made up from Noelle's search history just like Susie and Kris's) there's a calendar that has every day as the 25th of December. We can assume this is because Noelle frequently searches "December Holiday" for any trace of her sister on the internet. Spamton also insinuates in the Sweepstakes that Noelle often uses "free friend finder" apps which could be another way she's trying to find any trace of Dess.
So, if your theory is true, Noelle would have to be unaware of it. Honestly I don't think it'd be too far of a stretch though, these small town mystery stories usually feature some sort of cover-up.
@@guiltyflygon I'm under the impression that Dess had attempted to take noelle with her. Noelle due to the trauma forgot about it and everyone who does know doesn't want to tell noelle.
great videos
You are not the Knight! You're not even capable of being a Knight. I had a Knight and not I don't you are not the Knight
Ice queen?
"Well the cold never bothered me anyway" 😂
39:40 bookmark
I disagree about you saying that King didn't know Noelle if she's the Knight. It's VERY possible that it happens off screen, just like the creation of the first Dark Fountain that happens in the school happens off screen... as does the second. Only the THRID - which we see Kris do - actually happens in front of us (the player) so it's still plausible she could be... but she doesn't really have any solid motives for this, though there is the motive of Dess... I highly doubt it. I don't think she's going to be revealed to be the Knight - especially considering how hesitant she is about just about everything (except in the snow grave/weird route where she has more confidence when playing the game with her dad). Edit: between raisin' a kid on her own, dealing with bills from the hospital from Ruddy's illness and all the duties she'd have to attend to as Mayor... I seriously doubt she's the Knight. When would she have the time, let alone the energy?
FOUNTAIN PEN MENTIONED!!!!!!!!!
theres nothing really knightly about anyone in deltarune except maybe asgore but especially not gaster. gaster wouldn't even be a meta twist. Dess would be a meta twist if its worked in well even and especially if it has nothing to do with gaster.
I think gaster being knight would be honestly the worst possible option. he's an obscure character who's not relevant to the plot who the fandom got obsessed over so toby fox decided to use him to tease deltarune as being an undertale sequel when he had even considered having the towns people be human, meaning yes the towns people are all undertale characters as a troll to the fanbase. thats why we had a chara fakeout scene. because undertale has meta commentary about people getting overly attached to games as well as how a typical player might view undertale(as another basic retro rpg with some gimmick).
Do you have a source for the town being originally intended to be humans? I've never heard that before. And, even if that was the case at some point it clearly isn't now, so I don't think we can necessarily discount any monsters for Undertale just because they live in hometown because Well, that would leave us with no Knight candidates.
Do I think it'll be a Undertale character? No. Do I think it'll be Gaster? Hell no. But to totally discount them as essentially pointless, especially when Toriel is absolutely going to be a part of the next chapter, also seems a bit wild.
Lore of My Take On Noelle/Mayor/Dess Knight momentum 100