Nothing makes me respect a learned person more than them reflecting on how views held, might have been right once, but no longer - maybe even never. But then they take The time to understa why this was the case, and use The insights they've gotten from being wrong, to start developing new systems of thinking closer to the truth. Science is good at getting it right, precisely when People can admit when it doesn't!
Yes, it was jarring to hear from a conservative that they were A) Wrong and B) Society needs to address the wealth inequality while providing better social services. They're finally recognizing how dangerous to our fragile democracies it is to screw the bottom 85% of society.
Well the paperclipped not sees bones and skull and the masons free bought our guvment? Funny how the fascist says poor can't vote because welfare yet 30 trillion dollars in welfare for the wealthy and wars for war profiteering they can not see. Eye for an eye made them all blind.😂🌎🌎🖖🖖❤️ Mars mysteries Gigi young You tub .Might makes right is their moral creed
Currently global spending on military exceeds $7 trillion annually. This as we add 51 billion tons of greenhouse gases pollution to our shared atmosphere annually.
Yes, yes but somewhat understated. The Washington/Wall Street corporatocracy is running a national debt in of over $30trillion and all but a very small percentage of this was spent on waging wars directly/indirectly in countries like Vietnam, Syria, Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Ukraine etc etc. The military arm of the Washington regime are boasting that they own (seized) 1/3 of Syrian territory which just kby pure chance) happens to be home to Syrias considerable oil reserves, which are being plundered by Wall Street energy companies, and the most arable land in Syria which is plundered or distroyed. You know a carbon copy of what is being done in Iraq.
You belong to the sort of people who would just hand Putin the keys to your house. We have military spending because the war is full of conflict and your naïve leftist ideology only helps tyrants. China has passed a law requiring a war with Taiwan to annex it. You want to repeat the same old mistake that the UK made vis-à-vis Nazi Germany.
The idea that complex societies are naturally “will to power” hierarchies is out of date, look at the Neolithic cities in Europe and also agriculture developing in South America. Yes hierarchies and strong men often emerge and exploit human fears, but so do complex cooperative systems. It’s dangerous to flatten humanity to our worst impulses and call that human nature
This guy is an embarrassed neo-liberal. He's still thinking about everything wrong, and thus still getting bad results. Capitalism naturally rewards and incentivizes humanity's worst impulses. Capitalism is social Darwinist at its core. It's an ideology obsessed with nature, but only a vacuous, false vision of it, that doesn't account for the massive, complex structure of behavior that is "natural" for humans. If you try to run your society on it, you should expect the exact barbarism we are seeing emerge. Various types of fascism, including capitalist fascism, is the type of society that a "free market" produces. Brutal revolutions and strongmen is what's "fit" in the natural order of things, when you remove the less dramatic corrective measures like regulation and taxation. A "free market" empowers tyrants, delegitimizes the democratic state, and unbinds force.
I'm going to be BLUNT. Great discussion if we had it in 2000, and immediately acted to put all the Great Depression banking rules and regulation back in place, and went after global warming. A painful discussion if we had it in 2008, and acted. Now, it feels too late. And so many of us saw this really clearly in 2008 and have been ignored for over a decade.
GenX was the first generation to get the brunt of these insane anti-democracy, anti-human policies. Many of us, who are oppressed, were pointing out what this guy is saying now, in the 1980s with Reagan (Trump 1.0) ! Now 40+ years later, here we are. GenX has experienced numerous recessions that have destroyed millions of lives. Now as they are aging, their retirement accounts are empty, a massive crisis is building.
the 2008 recession was the touchstone for where we are now. An empire built on sand was eventually washed away when the tide came in. We've been paying for it ever since with austerity.
I was going to take it point-by-point, but this little gem is a good summary: ~26:20-27:10 "Many people are becoming profoundly disenchanted with our political system. Well if people don't BELIEVE in democracy, and they see its abuse in this way, why should they fight for it? ... For a whole set of reasons, in my view...people have lost trust in the elites of our society. ... We need elites. I cannot imagine a complex society without them." His narrative leading up to this point suggested to me that he was incapable of really critiquing the systems he is "surprised" people are disenchanted with, and instead subscribes to the same mindsets and beliefs that elitists have long employed to justify their positions as elites. This comment merely cements that understanding. He conflates people having the privilege of voting for their new lords and kings with "democracy," and then comments on people not believing in democracy. Democracy isn't "one person one vote, but only to decide who will make all of the decisions without any obligation to inform, be informed by, and gain the approval of the people they rule," which is exactly what republics are, but a system of discussion, building solutions, working out compromises, coming to agreements, upholding the agreements, and revisiting the issues as necessary, NONE of which the people in these so-called "democracies" are allowed to participate in. In other words, it's "democracy for the elite few, not the people themselves," which puts it into a very similar category as feudalism. The difference? Feudalism has bloodlines that determine who rules, and the commoners have few rights that aren't granted by the lo....or rather, feudalism has bloodlines that determine who rules, and the commoners in republics have MORE rights than under feudalism (but still granted by the "lords," enforced by the bailiffs of the "lords," judged by the legal supporters of the "lords," represented by lawyers that most commoners can't afford, etc etc etc). Now apply all of that to capitalism. Capitalism and democracy are opposites. Markets do not create democracy unless the "vote" is the dollar, in which case the most votes are cast by the people with the most dollars, which just happen to be the same elites that are or control/influence the ones in government. Capitalism, then, rejects democracy for the many in favor of democracy for the few, and those few have a vested interest in making their club ever smaller so that there is less and less competition for profit. Capitalism is feudalism without bloodlines, but the commoners have a very limited right in deciding which lord to serve, based on the availability of options, their connections, their training, etc, all of which are determined or heavily influenced before they're ever born. In essence, capitalism and republics are not democratic. They're elitist. This guy is an elitist who can't comprehend a system that isn't elitist, because he's been trained to think in those terms and reject the possibility that there are realistic alternatives. Most people have been trained that way. I used to be that way. It's hard to break free of it and stop seeing things in terms of needing someone to make all of the decisions for everyone, and start seeing things in terms of everyone needing to be part of the entire decision-making process via community-based democracy. Democracy isn't a fast method of making decisions. It's notoriously slow because it's not about "owning the libs" or other tribalist nonsense, or being told that "this is the society we elites have determined is for your own good," nor is it "mob rule" as people are scared into believing (typically with memes that suggest racist undertones or Nazi-esque tendencies), but instead about people coming together to decide TOGETHER on the society THEY THEMSELVES want to live in. It's slow, but it's what the people themselves decide, so as the people want change, it is up to them, not some elite "who is older and wiser" as the song goes, to make it happen. Not "if only we can overcome the hurdles placed in our way by capitalists who control the political system and media," but through common and regular discussion among common folk. Because that's democracy. The "demos" (people) "kratos" (rule/power). No matter how much he has changed from whatever he started at, he's still got a long ways to go before his understanding of why people are angry and disenchanted with the way things are/have been. Look at the long battles of labor against capital to get a hint, and then understand that those battles are largely unknown BECAUSE THE ELITES WANT THEM TO BE FORGOTTEN!
A society without these hierarchies, classes and castes must be the goal. He at least acknowledges the necessity of elites' responsibility to everyone else, rather than the present justifications for abandoning the majority to relative states of misery. Even though we are not all naturally endowed equally with exceptional capabilities, those so gifted should not be separated as a class that elevates them above others this way. Capitalism rewards a very small set of talents that excludes the majority of vital human qualities that deserve equal respect, rewards and encouragement etc.
It is hard for me to find much to disagree with in your comments. Very astute and informed of the broader sociopolitical context we face. I think part of his myopia is his attachment to Keynesian economics as his lens, and the inherent prejudice of Economists who assume there must be a theoretical explanation for the failure of capitalism (or any other system). Embedded in this academic distortion of reality, are other failures of observation. History results from the particular collision of leaders and corrupt systems they can exploit, for good or ill. Nothing inevitable about how it enfolds. Many of us recognized how the Reagan ‘revolution’ fundamentally destroyed the Republican Party, or at least the version that emerged post WWII. What has now become painfully evident, is how dark the Reagan admin was, underneath his folksy facade. Not a historian, but that de-evolution seems almost ‘inevitable’ given the roots of plutocracy from which it emerged. But for the benevolent interventions of FDR and Teddy, our historical trajectory could easily have been very different. It sounds like your vision for a true democracy mirrors mine, and I was strongly influenced by Buckminster Fuller, whose own vision included the World Game. Unfortunately, his vision was overly optimistic about how capitalism could corrupt such a world.
Wolf seems to be suggesting that we can fix a structural problem with neoliberalism. I just don’t find his argument convincing. I’m glad he recognises the crises with the system.
great discussion. I dont agree that most young people, at least in America, are "losing faith in democracy", and are in danger of supporting autocracy. That describes more older people. Younger people are losing faith is THiS democracy and thinkn it is insufficiently democratic
The current Western civilization is going to collapse at some future time due to the legacy of the slave trade, religious conflicts and political tribalism. No Western democracy has survived more than 300 years.
Everyone has an opinion but Obama's failure to nationalize the banks was epic. As the banks failed, they should have been taken over by the government, the depositors made whole, the stock and bond holders wiped out and then sold when they were returned to solvency. Ironically, nationalization was the best "free market" solution available.
What has always confused me is out of one side of their mouth people will praise democracy, then out of the other side denounce populism (defined by the dictionary as catering to the popular will of the people.) Which is it. Either democracy and the will of the people is good, or it is not. It's asinine to claim that you defend democracy while simultaneously saying "that guy is popular with the people and that is a problem." Now you can point out that WHY he is popular is a serious problem and we need to address the reasons why things are the way they are, but that isn't actually denouncing the will of the people, it's actually hearing their concerns, admitting that these people have a right to be concerned and addressing those concerns. Something we seem pathologically against doing these days. There's this effort to rewrite the history of the 2016 election, papering over the fact that rust belters who watched their communities die, that working class people who had watched their share of the economy and all their real opportunity to have a home and a family vanish since the 1980s were repeatedly told that they are priviledged and they need to shut up by the "democrat" party, and the republicans just would sneer at them (having knowingly worked with the dems since the 1980s to systemically drive down working class wages) and tell the working people that their poverty was deserved for some sin like "laziness." We had an entire political system that told the working class population that they were absolute scum rather than addressing their concerns. That's what resulted in the call for a strong man, if possible to fix the problems but at the very least to enact vengeance. Biden won't even admit that half of his quite good policies are really... expansions of what Trump started. He kept the good ideas and is trying to throw out the bad.
He is not for true Democracy. He prefers the veneer of Democratic institution, but he really wants is for the Capital class to have freedom to operate at will.
I agree with most of what you said, until the final lines when you suggest Boden followed Trump's policies. Trump STOLE Bernie's rhetoric about what was needed. But Trump never implemented Bernie's policies. Biden implemented some of them. Would have been interesting if the host had asked the guest about whether he supported Bernie!
@@cherylannbrown3253 Trump did not implement bernies policies you are correct. That's because Trump did not steal them even for the campaign trail. Trump instead went a different direction, addressing trade. Trump knows more than most (as a crooked businessman) that the winners of markets are effectively chosen by those who construct the market by how they construct the market. His own personal wealth was largely accrued with this knowledge. He has pointed out that the market rules have been intentionally rigged in favor of other countries at American expense for decades now. He has pointed this out since the 1980s. He has no clue WHY this was done (to bribe countries into being anti soviet originally ), he just knew that it was being done. There's only one way to explain how Chinese workers in the coastal region, with wages comparable to Europe or the usa ($1,600) produce products for a lower price than you could get made down the street in the usa. Something doesn't add up about that equation and the answer is that the whole thing was rigged from tbe start. Now the golden years of the American middle class was from 1950 to 1970. With tbe rise of neoliberalism in the protections the defended the American workers from feeling the full wrath of this geopolitical bribery were removed and as a result... the bottom 50% have just been left behind. The protections removed Americans now had to compete with a bottomless global labor supply in a trade environment systemically rigged against them. Yes cheap consumer goods would flow in but each year Americans got poorer as evidenced by the fact that basic housing, Healthcare all of it inflated out of reach as their wages stagnated. Now Bernie seems to think the solution is taxes... no. I'm not saying taxes for roads and welfare is bad but that wouldn't have solved the problem. The trade rules systemically rigged against Americans. The bottomless international labor pool they are forced to compete with. Trumps policies against immigration and reforming trade changed that and ALL OF THEM are being upheld by the biden administration. Every last one. Trump got Japan and Korea to sign humiliating trade deals. He corrected Europe and his administration recognized despite their bluster that Mexico is our closest economic partner and deepened ties there.
@30:30 as it relates to Aristotle and Plato, has anyone watched "Forgotten Thinkers: Mencius" or "Chinese Language and Civilization" on the Wes Cecil TH-cam channel? Also watched "Water Margin" or "Outlaws of the Marsh" and was quite amazed at how insightful people many centuries ago were about human nature and society.
I am very impressed with this conversation . I have similar thoughts. Being a student of philosophy, economic s and history I have a similar viewpoint.
I think this guest speaks very articulately. I was curious whether he was eventually going to account for Neoliberalism’s damage as being at the center of the crisis. I was thinking for a moment that he wouldn’t. Thankfully he does. We need more people who helped cause the problem (elite-protected market tyranny, ie anti-social, anti commons Neoliberalism) make this kind of admission.
Martin kind of forgets that globalized wealth, and people like Koch and Thiel and their economic strata spend their immense wealth smashing democracy to “save civilization”. China is spiraling into authoritarianism and face an immense water crisis that kills growth and existing productive capacity. Their authoritarianism may end them or they may muddle through. Same with the US. It’s a world phenomena and the two largest economies will face a threat to their economic order. Capitalism cannot function stably in negative growth. The math of investment doesn’t yield returns. That means collapse.
Robert Johnson you’re true gold! A national treasure at a treacherous moment. I am grateful for every episode wherein your presence and integrity adds awesome value to conversations of immense importance. Thank you, RJ. And thank you Martin Wolf.
Reinstatement of Fairness Doctrine Act, that was revoked by President Reagan in the US. This would help, it should be introduced in every country that call herself Democratic. It would prevent mob rule and provide a proper check and balance.
i very much liked the analysis part. for the 'What to do part' - old men on the brink of grave dream about everybody doing the right thing. it's not going to happen.
Liberalization, deregulation, expansion of 'free markets' is a political movement that is supported by and benefits specific interest groups, so, yes, it is forced. Laissez Faire is a political rallying cry. I do not know how much else of Wolf's book echoes Karl Polanyi's Great Transformation, but on this point, similar.
If Marx, Fukuyama, and the neo-fascists are all wrong, then the alternative may be beyond conventional imagination. That is, I think that if there really is a tendency for large complex modern societies to form democracies and elites within those democracies are susceptible to authoritarianism then I agree people will lose trust in elites but I think the logical conclusion is a widespread rejection of large complex modern societies, not a reluctant embrace of fascism... One can only hope.
Capitalism is fundamentally unstable, undemocratic and unsustainable. We don't need to reform the system, we already tried, we need a more democratic system where management and planning of enterprises and industries is undertook by those who work in them (unions & coops), not abandoned at the top in the hands of a tiny minority... the Employer/Employees contradiction which is the very root of capitalism.
He doesn’t understand how Dems are the plutocrats now. Ron, you talked about why Hillary didn’t come to MI to campaign. It was clear she was a plutocrat. There are horrible risks of autocracy. But different brands of it-D vs R.
The American plutocrats have forgotten historical lessons. Familiarizing themselves with Latin might be wise. Such as, "Vox Populi vox Dei." -The voice of the people is the voice of God. Or, "Fiat justitia, ruat caelum." - Let justice be done, though the heavens fall. Obscene wealth won't protect capitalists forever. Eventually, their own bodyguards will feel greater kinship with the mob at the door than the employer at their back.
I used to think that, but now I think the plutocrats are the only people who know the history while they dumb down the working people by education, media, and entertainment.
Also being assumed is global trade will be viable. While the US and West imagine they can repeat the fate of the USSR on China, the idea forgets that China is a much larger economy than the USSR. Again, climate whiplash is going to put all nations in the deepest economic crisis and global trade might just shatter on it.
I wish this interview had ended at 1 hour and 13 minutes in before he went off the rails and talked about how in liberal democracy's leaders are educated. Educated at engineering wars of choice in the Middle East, in the case of the United States leaders.
Supposing we avoid a nuclear war with all the current and approaching conflicts - we cannot adapt to/arrest climate change and fight WW III at the same time. Not only is war energy intensive, it is the opposite drive of the cooperation needed to solve a most complex crisis like climate change. Let’s hope people organize and put an end to these clowns madness.
This type of epiphany happens sporadically within the ranks of the elites, but until such awakenings to reality become far more common, things will only continue to get worse. We have a long way to go and little time to make the necessary changes.
Some comments as we go. Did Martin ever consider that the reason he has ended up back where he started regarding his concerns is because capitalism, no matter if under the state or under private hands, doesn't work for the vast majority of people and only did so for a brief time post world war 2 due to massive reallocations of domestic spending via Keynesian methods that briefly aided in building a middle class until the system ran out of money, where by neoliberal methodology was adopted that redressed the balance back unto the minority capitalist classes leaving everyone else stagnant for the last 4 decades getting out ever increasing debt to keep their damned heads above water until the system crashed due to running out of money while breaking the populations left and right in search of anyone who will stop the shafting being brought unto them by the failures of capitalism which was exactly how Hitler got elected to office. I would also like to thank him and any other economist who over the years prior to my birth and the 40 I have been here, worked tirelessly to push privatisation ("competition...") and markets into every aspect of life resulting in a 140% rise in the cost of energy in 12 months rendering myself and practically every millennial I know, beyond destitute and in ever growing rent and mortgage debt just to keep the lights on and feed their kids all on top of a housing and a private rental market gone insane. And I would like to thank him for having "dealt with" the 2008 crisis, could you tell me when exactly is my generation going to feel the recovery from you having dealt with it as Christ knows it hasn't turned up to date. There were points in ancient Greece where liberal democracy existed, the peasantry had the majority vote and freedoms and liberties there in and as their pottery can attest to they had no particular issues with sexual diversity at a minimum. If you want a new democratic order that gives people sovereign discretion then you democratise the damned economy, where no democracy exists under the capitalist work place where people spend 70% of life, you take the damned corporations OFF the rich and you hand it to the people who work there, 1 worker, 1 vote, and they all decide as a community via democracy in that 70% of life, what, how, and where to produce, and what to do with the profits from that. See Mondragon for details. At which point you've cut off the idle rich at the damned knee's as without there never ending sources of income for no work from dividends and rents they would soon profligate their way out of their fortunes and their descendants would be little better off than the rest of us with little ability to buy mass media assets and governments and you would finally for the first time in about 5,000 years end the top down anti democratic organisation of people to produce goods and services which has been the fatal flaw shared across all major economic systems over that time, while finally bringing democracy to 100% of life and when you extend such a system to the media you end up with a well informed population not a misinformed divided population on behalf of the handfuls of capitalist bastards who own the media. I don't hear any of that from most economists who seem to believe pissing around at the margins of capitalism = radical change, it both does not and is not enough to satisfy what immutable physics governing a finite world demands of humanity for humanity to have a future on it, nor is such amelioration of harm enough to restore any belief that democracy under capitalism is worth more than spit. Currently the worker owners in communist Chinas Huawei have more meaningful democracy in their lives than any westerner does. Which is why they just shared out 9.5 billion dollars between them all.
Basically, the author wrote a book on the basis of misinformation of popularism, misunderstanding of how and why people distrusted the managerial elites (as demonstrated with Trump in office and Brexit) sprinkled with a generous helping of neuroses passed down by familial experience of war (he admits to this in his preface)
Great conversation! I would’ve liked to hear more from the host (the guest interrupted him quite a bit). But I thoroughly enjoyed what the guest had to say & I’d gladly watch the next conversation that these two gentlemen decide to share with us.
Insightful conversation. Interesting to see a member of the establishment realising the decay and fracturing of our democratic system. A good add on to this debate would be what Michael Every talks about ie how the international system is fracturing and reorganising.
"The only thing to fear is fear itself" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt. We have a lot to thank him for and we will fight to preserve it. Our youth is rising... t is their world and they know it. Great change is upon us in the next few years😊,
This was well worth the time, thank you! As of spring 2023 there is no recession and the youth are riding at the head of the vote for Democracy 💕🇺🇸💯 Our hope is to VOTE the greedies out! VOTE OUT THE FASCISTS !!
Another take on the threat to democracy though is that it's also coming from the establishment center. Years ago, the president of Germany gave a speech in which he said that politicians weren't supposed to just get elected and then do whatever they pleased, they were supposed to represent the voters and the citizens. It was rather interesting that, and it was largely ignored. So, let's not forget that the "school master" form of authoritarianism is also growing. It's a gentler form of authoritarianism (unless you're someone like Julian Assange) but it seems to get a pass from most academic types. Trump's authoritarian impulses are quite easy to spot, but the authoritarianism of establishment institutions is an ever present threat and nobody seems to be giving it much notice except, in America, the so-called populist right. And that's only because they've been butting heads. God help us if those two forces ever link up. Also, let's not forget that the surveillance state was created by Bush and protected by Obama. That's a huge threat to our freedoms and potentially, if not actually, threatens democratic governance and free elections. But, Trump didn't do it, so it gets a pass.
A lot of good points, but these two give a lot of free passes - Obama and banks most obvious. They mention the 31 trillion debt, deficiit, whatever it is the place is run on and then it just drops out into the too hard bag under the bench. Wonder what Mr Assange is eating tonight. Such a benevolent state the UK. It is still a state isn't it? Not just a free holding pen for enemies of the USA.
There's no such thing as "democratic" capitalism. Capitalism as an economic system is inherently undemocratic as is capitalism as a sociopolitical system.
I think the idea of "democratic capitalism" here is that democratic institutions can act as a foil to the power of business interests. Think of things like the New Deal or the EPA in US. The history of liberal democracies in Europe support this. But, as democratic institutions decline and fragment, we lose the tool to regulate capitalism, so we revert to a harsher, more oppressive version of capitalism. Next step, populist revolt and rise of totalitarian tendencies. Understanding that a naive faith in "free market" ideology is first step in undermining democratic institutions.
Ya, we need a standard of accountability that does not require war for checks and balances. There needs to be checks before it gets that to that extreme.
Lol, a "specialist" who thinks US and S. Korea flourished because they practiced free trade and opened up their internal markets, when in fact they did the exact opposite: protected their internal markets and companies through massive state intervention. Had the US done in the 18-19th centuries in relation to Great Britain what this "specialist" advises India to do now, the US economy would have been gobbled up by the much more powerful and developed British economy, and the Americans would have gone right back to being British subjects.
Im a simple person. In democracies a vote with money has disporportionate weight on decisions. Which become grotesque in the US. People dont feel represented anymore. Nationalist have a strong focus on wellbeing the majority of the people in theire countries, which have much appeal in our times.
One thing I would criticize is the insistence on free trade. We should have fair trade. Trade agreements that take labour rights into consideration, that allow countries to provide incentives for local production, and some Bretton Woods style system. Bretton Woods was extremely successful and nobody's talking about it anymore. And nobody is talking about the fact that the western economic boom happened when trade was regulated. We need to stop with these aut-narratives. Like everything, we need to find a balance. The solution is not to impose free trade and then build a welfare state to compensate for it, because we have seen that welfare is an extremely polarizing issue for which it's hard to find consensus in a socially very fragmented context.
1hr 11mins in & he still won't 1) acknowledge that being able to buy a bigger bullhorn is inconsistent with Democracy, let alone 2) consider it's relationship to Capital never being held accountable. At core, it's mental gymnastics to defend old thinking.
I studied History then Psychology then Computer Information Systems that included economics but I have watched and studied medicine from my father mother who's families arrived to American colonies before 1725 . Males don't change have used violence to subjugate women from beginning of time without women participating equally in all decisions with child rearing that has never happened still with women going backwards in economic jobs. The women were forced to stop working to care for children that males didn't have to do this women and children went back 100 years from March 2020-2023.
It's not democratic in the sense of government of the people, by the people, for the people, but rather plutocracy. i.e. government of the rich, by the rich, for the rich. And it's loved by the rich as such because the rich can BUY access to power in whatever country it is practiced. Where there is no access to such power, the government is HATED. Also, just as how in these so-called democracies, people have been lied to by the media (themselves owned and operated by the rich corporations without exception) for decades, so they are lied to about what this democracy itself means! Seen in this light, democracies are immoral, corrupt systems incapable of redemption!
25 minutes in and I’m already bored. INET has been having this same “END OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY” debate for 7 YEARS now since Trump was elected. Trump lost, Bolsonaro lost. Can we move on please? Seems like some of these oldies have run of out ideas. Rob needs to get younger people on
Yeah, he seemed to think Bolawood is still in Brazil. Or was this made months ago. And if Stefan Zweig wrote about the Invisible Republic of the Spirit he sure wasn't referring to types like this giving each other awards they've invented!
You have to make it socially unacceptable to want tax cuts and destroy the welfare state. If your peers express that sentiment you have to make them pay a social price and not allow it to be said as if it were a sensible or benign political position. Strangers can’t change peoples’ minds, it has to be friends, family members, peers and member of their own class.
Martin Wolf is an intelligent, clever & articulate fellow, but he's eclipsed by men like Chris Hedges, Yanis Varoufakis, Satyajit Das and others in our complex & difficult world...
Also, good to hear someone say that the distrust of expertise is regrettable, but also deserved. When it comes to foreign policy, is it not extraordinary in it's implications that the Neo-Conservatives are STILL in high levels of government!? Victoria Nuland is Under-Secretary of State!? Are you kidding? She should be blacklisted from having anything to do with foreign policy, as should her husband and their scumbag friends. But no, a vote for Biden was a vote for Neo-Conservative foreign policy. Both Biden and Blinken were pro Iraq War after all. So how is it that mistakes in Washington DC keep leading to promotions? How is it that corruption on Wall Street leads to corporate bailouts and more tax cuts? And Trump offered nothing when it came to these issues. It's another example of how DC is just a place where they do what they want and the results are simply unimportant. But thank God we don't live in Putin's Russia, right? We have our soft form of Putanism at home one might say.
first, capitalism is innately not a democratic system it has nothing to do with democracy and has never been interested in promoting democracy. secondly, liberalism has got nothing to do with democracy either. one of the greatest liberal philiospher J.S Mill himself is anti-democratic. the term "liberal democracy" frequently used by the media and people as a whole is just mind-boggling.
If I ever do a movie about a mediocre bureaucrat who sits around thinking how he needs to get more power so that he can fix the lives of stupid people because he is so much smarter than they are, and then messes up everything he touches and can’t figure out why given how smart he is and how good is intentions are…I would base it on this guy.
I guess this guys need another half of his life to realize that when the US power declines, that the world will be more free and more democratic actually.
No, that was not ‘broadly correct’. Those asian economies were uniquely suited to take advantage of trade liberalization, and are/were quite different from many developing economies, then and now. I do not enjoy so-called experts spend too much time justifying their past mistakes.
This "guest" with his elitist and sympathetic view of the super-rich class is precisely the reason that the young citizens of the world are disgusted with the status quo in whose bosom he comfortably rests.
What a wonderful world it would be if men like these were actually in charge !!!!! Where have we gone wrong !!!! iI seems you have to be a psychopathic narcissist to get ahead in the world of politics! Even my personal hope of a potential transformational leader , Jacinta , has thrown in the towel and retreated to anonymous domesticity !!!! Not that I have a problem with women who choose motherhood over career !!!!
Nothing makes me respect a learned person more than them reflecting on how views held, might have been right once, but no longer - maybe even never. But then they take The time to understa why this was the case, and use The insights they've gotten from being wrong, to start developing new systems of thinking closer to the truth.
Science is good at getting it right, precisely when People can admit when it doesn't!
Yes, it was jarring to hear from a conservative that they were A) Wrong and B) Society needs to address the wealth inequality while providing better social services.
They're finally recognizing how dangerous to our fragile democracies it is to screw the bottom 85% of society.
💯💛💯💛💯☝💝
Well the paperclipped not sees bones and skull and the masons free bought our guvment? Funny how the fascist says poor can't vote because welfare yet 30 trillion dollars in welfare for the wealthy and wars for war profiteering they can not see. Eye for an eye made them all blind.😂🌎🌎🖖🖖❤️ Mars mysteries Gigi young You tub .Might makes right is their moral creed
The division in US Australia UK have a common source. Rupert Murdoch
what about our buddy in the stolenwealth - Canada?
@@MrBrindleStyle FoxNews doesn't have a license to operate in Canada
I’ll pop open the champagne when that reptile finally meets his maker.
@@robertstraw9881 Lachie looks like a chip off the old block, I don't know if there will be much change when the reptile shrivels up.
Currently global spending on military exceeds $7 trillion annually. This as we add 51 billion tons of greenhouse gases pollution to our shared atmosphere annually.
💯💯💯😵💯😵YES!! DEMOCRATIC CAPITALISM IS AMAZING...AT MASS DESTRUCTION MURDER BRAINWASHING ☝😂😂 OBEY YOUR INNER PIG 🐖 INBRED CONSUMER ZOMBIE 🤤🕊
Yes, yes but somewhat understated. The Washington/Wall Street corporatocracy is running a national debt in of over $30trillion and all but a very small percentage of this was spent on waging wars directly/indirectly in countries like Vietnam, Syria, Yugoslavia, Lybia, Afghanistan, Ukraine etc etc. The military arm of the Washington regime are boasting that they own (seized) 1/3 of Syrian territory which just kby pure chance) happens to be home to Syrias considerable oil reserves, which are being plundered by Wall Street energy companies, and the most arable land in Syria which is plundered or distroyed. You know a carbon copy of what is being done in Iraq.
You belong to the sort of people who would just hand Putin the keys to your house. We have military spending because the war is full of conflict and your naïve leftist ideology only helps tyrants. China has passed a law requiring a war with Taiwan to annex it. You want to repeat the same old mistake that the UK made vis-à-vis Nazi Germany.
Capitalism and democracy are antonyms
EXACTLY! thus making "democratic capitalism" into an oxymoron.
You two are fantastic
Varoufakis has made a similar point. Capitalism devours democracy.
They are the same oligarchy 🐑🐑
@@AbtinX if you mean fantastically clueless...😆
The idea that complex societies are naturally “will to power” hierarchies is out of date, look at the Neolithic cities in Europe and also agriculture developing in South America. Yes hierarchies and strong men often emerge and exploit human fears, but so do complex cooperative systems.
It’s dangerous to flatten humanity to our worst impulses and call that human nature
This guy is an embarrassed neo-liberal. He's still thinking about everything wrong, and thus still getting bad results.
Capitalism naturally rewards and incentivizes humanity's worst impulses. Capitalism is social Darwinist at its core. It's an ideology obsessed with nature, but only a vacuous, false vision of it, that doesn't account for the massive, complex structure of behavior that is "natural" for humans.
If you try to run your society on it, you should expect the exact barbarism we are seeing emerge. Various types of fascism, including capitalist fascism, is the type of society that a "free market" produces. Brutal revolutions and strongmen is what's "fit" in the natural order of things, when you remove the less dramatic corrective measures like regulation and taxation.
A "free market" empowers tyrants, delegitimizes the democratic state, and unbinds force.
You seem to be contradicting yourself. The problem seems to come from anyone conflating a common tendency with a natural tendency.
@@ivandafoe5451 observing both hierarchies & cooperative systems have worked, isn't a contradiction.
I'm going to be BLUNT. Great discussion if we had it in 2000, and immediately acted to put all the Great Depression banking rules and regulation back in place, and went after global warming. A painful discussion if we had it in 2008, and acted. Now, it feels too late. And so many of us saw this really clearly in 2008 and have been ignored for over a decade.
GenX was the first generation to get the brunt of these insane anti-democracy, anti-human policies. Many of us, who are oppressed, were pointing out what this guy is saying now, in the 1980s with Reagan (Trump 1.0) ! Now 40+ years later, here we are. GenX has experienced numerous recessions that have destroyed millions of lives. Now as they are aging, their retirement accounts are empty, a massive crisis is building.
the 2008 recession was the touchstone for where we are now.
An empire built on sand was eventually washed away when the tide came in. We've been paying for it ever since with austerity.
I was going to take it point-by-point, but this little gem is a good summary:
~26:20-27:10 "Many people are becoming profoundly disenchanted with our political system. Well if people don't BELIEVE in democracy, and they see its abuse in this way, why should they fight for it? ... For a whole set of reasons, in my view...people have lost trust in the elites of our society. ... We need elites. I cannot imagine a complex society without them."
His narrative leading up to this point suggested to me that he was incapable of really critiquing the systems he is "surprised" people are disenchanted with, and instead subscribes to the same mindsets and beliefs that elitists have long employed to justify their positions as elites. This comment merely cements that understanding. He conflates people having the privilege of voting for their new lords and kings with "democracy," and then comments on people not believing in democracy. Democracy isn't "one person one vote, but only to decide who will make all of the decisions without any obligation to inform, be informed by, and gain the approval of the people they rule," which is exactly what republics are, but a system of discussion, building solutions, working out compromises, coming to agreements, upholding the agreements, and revisiting the issues as necessary, NONE of which the people in these so-called "democracies" are allowed to participate in. In other words, it's "democracy for the elite few, not the people themselves," which puts it into a very similar category as feudalism. The difference? Feudalism has bloodlines that determine who rules, and the commoners have few rights that aren't granted by the lo....or rather, feudalism has bloodlines that determine who rules, and the commoners in republics have MORE rights than under feudalism (but still granted by the "lords," enforced by the bailiffs of the "lords," judged by the legal supporters of the "lords," represented by lawyers that most commoners can't afford, etc etc etc).
Now apply all of that to capitalism. Capitalism and democracy are opposites. Markets do not create democracy unless the "vote" is the dollar, in which case the most votes are cast by the people with the most dollars, which just happen to be the same elites that are or control/influence the ones in government. Capitalism, then, rejects democracy for the many in favor of democracy for the few, and those few have a vested interest in making their club ever smaller so that there is less and less competition for profit. Capitalism is feudalism without bloodlines, but the commoners have a very limited right in deciding which lord to serve, based on the availability of options, their connections, their training, etc, all of which are determined or heavily influenced before they're ever born.
In essence, capitalism and republics are not democratic. They're elitist. This guy is an elitist who can't comprehend a system that isn't elitist, because he's been trained to think in those terms and reject the possibility that there are realistic alternatives. Most people have been trained that way. I used to be that way. It's hard to break free of it and stop seeing things in terms of needing someone to make all of the decisions for everyone, and start seeing things in terms of everyone needing to be part of the entire decision-making process via community-based democracy. Democracy isn't a fast method of making decisions. It's notoriously slow because it's not about "owning the libs" or other tribalist nonsense, or being told that "this is the society we elites have determined is for your own good," nor is it "mob rule" as people are scared into believing (typically with memes that suggest racist undertones or Nazi-esque tendencies), but instead about people coming together to decide TOGETHER on the society THEY THEMSELVES want to live in. It's slow, but it's what the people themselves decide, so as the people want change, it is up to them, not some elite "who is older and wiser" as the song goes, to make it happen. Not "if only we can overcome the hurdles placed in our way by capitalists who control the political system and media," but through common and regular discussion among common folk. Because that's democracy. The "demos" (people) "kratos" (rule/power).
No matter how much he has changed from whatever he started at, he's still got a long ways to go before his understanding of why people are angry and disenchanted with the way things are/have been. Look at the long battles of labor against capital to get a hint, and then understand that those battles are largely unknown BECAUSE THE ELITES WANT THEM TO BE FORGOTTEN!
A society without these hierarchies, classes and castes must be the goal. He at least acknowledges the necessity of elites' responsibility to everyone else, rather than the present justifications for abandoning the majority to relative states of misery.
Even though we are not all naturally endowed equally with exceptional capabilities, those so gifted should not be separated as a class that elevates them above others this way.
Capitalism rewards a very small set of talents that excludes the majority of vital human qualities that deserve equal respect, rewards and encouragement etc.
@@ivandafoe5451 The 1% are not "gifted", they are thieves and murderers. Humans don't achieve things via genetic fitness.
Now, yours is a valuable comment. Thank you.
God help the exploited majority from this EchoNomist
It is hard for me to find much to disagree with in your comments. Very astute and informed of the broader sociopolitical context we face. I think part of his myopia is his attachment to Keynesian economics as his lens, and the inherent prejudice of Economists who assume there must be a theoretical explanation for the failure of capitalism (or any other system). Embedded in this academic distortion of reality, are other failures of observation. History results from the particular collision of leaders and corrupt systems they can exploit, for good or ill. Nothing inevitable about how it enfolds. Many of us recognized how the Reagan ‘revolution’ fundamentally destroyed the Republican Party, or at least the version that emerged post WWII. What has now become painfully evident, is how dark the Reagan admin was, underneath his folksy facade. Not a historian, but that de-evolution seems almost ‘inevitable’ given the roots of plutocracy from which it emerged. But for the benevolent interventions of FDR and Teddy, our historical trajectory could easily have been very different.
It sounds like your vision for a true democracy mirrors mine, and I was strongly influenced by Buckminster Fuller, whose own vision included the World Game. Unfortunately, his vision was overly optimistic about how capitalism could corrupt such a world.
Wolf seems to be suggesting that we can fix a structural problem with neoliberalism. I just don’t find his argument convincing. I’m glad he recognises the crises with the system.
Neoliberalism is the problem, not Trump.
This has been a fantastic conversation.
This kind of thinking has to be translated into action. People, all of them, need a voice. In oligarchy or totalitarianism, we get exploitation.
The problem with humanity is that we are all just human.
@@The.world.has.gone.crazy... We are not 'all just human'. Unfortunately for humanity, there are some who are brainless, and we call them capitalists.
great discussion. I dont agree that most young people, at least in America, are "losing faith in democracy", and are in danger of supporting autocracy. That describes more older people. Younger people are losing faith is THiS democracy and thinkn it is insufficiently democratic
The current Western civilization is going to collapse at some future time due to the legacy of the slave trade, religious conflicts and political tribalism. No Western democracy has survived more than 300 years.
Michael Parenti said that same quote, but he said, a rising tides sinks many boats
Everyone has an opinion but Obama's failure to nationalize the banks was epic. As the banks failed, they should have been taken over by the government, the depositors made whole, the stock and bond holders wiped out and then sold when they were returned to solvency. Ironically, nationalization was the best "free market" solution available.
Yes this would be the fairest measure. It also would likely have caused international disruption and a longer depression.
@@jimschachtschneider7741 We still have those very problems AND what caused them in the first place, so whatever was done has failed miserably.
What has always confused me is out of one side of their mouth people will praise democracy, then out of the other side denounce populism (defined by the dictionary as catering to the popular will of the people.) Which is it. Either democracy and the will of the people is good, or it is not. It's asinine to claim that you defend democracy while simultaneously saying "that guy is popular with the people and that is a problem." Now you can point out that WHY he is popular is a serious problem and we need to address the reasons why things are the way they are, but that isn't actually denouncing the will of the people, it's actually hearing their concerns, admitting that these people have a right to be concerned and addressing those concerns. Something we seem pathologically against doing these days. There's this effort to rewrite the history of the 2016 election, papering over the fact that rust belters who watched their communities die, that working class people who had watched their share of the economy and all their real opportunity to have a home and a family vanish since the 1980s were repeatedly told that they are priviledged and they need to shut up by the "democrat" party, and the republicans just would sneer at them (having knowingly worked with the dems since the 1980s to systemically drive down working class wages) and tell the working people that their poverty was deserved for some sin like "laziness." We had an entire political system that told the working class population that they were absolute scum rather than addressing their concerns. That's what resulted in the call for a strong man, if possible to fix the problems but at the very least to enact vengeance.
Biden won't even admit that half of his quite good policies are really... expansions of what Trump started. He kept the good ideas and is trying to throw out the bad.
He is not for true Democracy. He prefers the veneer of Democratic institution, but he really wants is for the Capital class to have freedom to operate at will.
I agree with most of what you said, until the final lines when you suggest Boden followed Trump's policies. Trump STOLE Bernie's rhetoric about what was needed. But Trump never implemented Bernie's policies. Biden implemented some of them. Would have been interesting if the host had asked the guest about whether he supported Bernie!
@@cherylannbrown3253 Trump did not implement bernies policies you are correct. That's because Trump did not steal them even for the campaign trail. Trump instead went a different direction, addressing trade.
Trump knows more than most (as a crooked businessman) that the winners of markets are effectively chosen by those who construct the market by how they construct the market. His own personal wealth was largely accrued with this knowledge. He has pointed out that the market rules have been intentionally rigged in favor of other countries at American expense for decades now. He has pointed this out since the 1980s.
He has no clue WHY this was done (to bribe countries into being anti soviet originally ), he just knew that it was being done. There's only one way to explain how Chinese workers in the coastal region, with wages comparable to Europe or the usa ($1,600) produce products for a lower price than you could get made down the street in the usa. Something doesn't add up about that equation and the answer is that the whole thing was rigged from tbe start.
Now the golden years of the American middle class was from 1950 to 1970. With tbe rise of neoliberalism in the protections the defended the American workers from feeling the full wrath of this geopolitical bribery were removed and as a result... the bottom 50% have just been left behind. The protections removed Americans now had to compete with a bottomless global labor supply in a trade environment systemically rigged against them. Yes cheap consumer goods would flow in but each year Americans got poorer as evidenced by the fact that basic housing, Healthcare all of it inflated out of reach as their wages stagnated.
Now Bernie seems to think the solution is taxes... no. I'm not saying taxes for roads and welfare is bad but that wouldn't have solved the problem. The trade rules systemically rigged against Americans. The bottomless international labor pool they are forced to compete with. Trumps policies against immigration and reforming trade changed that and ALL OF THEM are being upheld by the biden administration. Every last one. Trump got Japan and Korea to sign humiliating trade deals. He corrected Europe and his administration recognized despite their bluster that Mexico is our closest economic partner and deepened ties there.
@30:30 as it relates to Aristotle and Plato, has anyone watched "Forgotten Thinkers: Mencius" or "Chinese Language and Civilization" on the Wes Cecil TH-cam channel? Also watched "Water Margin" or "Outlaws of the Marsh" and was quite amazed at how insightful people many centuries ago were about human nature and society.
I am very impressed with this conversation . I have similar thoughts. Being a student of philosophy, economic s and history I have a similar viewpoint.
I think this guest speaks very articulately. I was curious whether he was eventually going to account for Neoliberalism’s damage as being at the center of the crisis. I was thinking for a moment that he wouldn’t. Thankfully he does. We need more people who helped cause the problem (elite-protected market tyranny, ie anti-social, anti commons Neoliberalism) make this kind of admission.
Martin kind of forgets that globalized wealth, and people like Koch and Thiel and their economic strata spend their immense wealth smashing democracy to “save civilization”. China is spiraling into authoritarianism and face an immense water crisis that kills growth and existing productive capacity. Their authoritarianism may end them or they may muddle through. Same with the US. It’s a world phenomena and the two largest economies will face a threat to their economic order. Capitalism cannot function stably in negative growth. The math of investment doesn’t yield returns. That means collapse.
Robert Johnson you’re true gold! A national treasure at a treacherous moment. I am grateful for every episode wherein your presence and integrity adds awesome value to conversations of immense importance. Thank you, RJ. And thank you Martin Wolf.
Reinstatement of Fairness Doctrine Act, that was revoked by President Reagan in the US. This would help, it should be introduced in every country that call herself Democratic. It would prevent mob rule and provide a proper check and balance.
i very much liked the analysis part. for the 'What to do part' - old men on the brink of grave dream about everybody doing the right thing. it's not going to happen.
Deregulation I find at fault here for our current and for at least 30 years as well, situation. Could even be called a form of forced economic shock.
Liberalization, deregulation, expansion of 'free markets' is a political movement that is supported by and benefits specific interest groups, so, yes, it is forced. Laissez Faire is a political rallying cry. I do not know how much else of Wolf's book echoes Karl Polanyi's Great Transformation, but on this point, similar.
@26:30 -he profoundly correct. I hear a resignation from many 20 and 30 somethings.
If Marx, Fukuyama, and the neo-fascists are all wrong, then the alternative may be beyond conventional imagination. That is, I think that if there really is a tendency for large complex modern societies to form democracies and elites within those democracies are susceptible to authoritarianism then I agree people will lose trust in elites but I think the logical conclusion is a widespread rejection of large complex modern societies, not a reluctant embrace of fascism... One can only hope.
In a time of click bait and the sky is falling rhetoric, this discussion is refreshing and informative in its reality based mature reasoning...
Capitalism is fundamentally unstable, undemocratic and unsustainable. We don't need to reform the system, we already tried, we need a more democratic system where management and planning of enterprises and industries is undertook by those who work in them (unions & coops), not abandoned at the top in the hands of a tiny minority... the Employer/Employees contradiction which is the very root of capitalism.
He doesn’t understand how Dems are the plutocrats now. Ron, you talked about why Hillary didn’t come to MI to campaign. It was clear she was a plutocrat. There are horrible risks of autocracy. But different brands of it-D vs R.
Very insightful, conversation, adds a level of analysis that is so very timely, thank you Rob and INET!
The American plutocrats have forgotten historical lessons. Familiarizing themselves with Latin might be wise. Such as, "Vox Populi vox Dei." -The voice of the people is the voice of God.
Or, "Fiat justitia, ruat caelum." - Let justice be done, though the heavens fall.
Obscene wealth won't protect capitalists forever. Eventually, their own bodyguards will feel greater kinship with the mob at the door than the employer at their back.
👃😂👃😂👃ejewcation is amazing😵💔☝
@allgood and "democracy" canceled him, permanently!
I used to think that, but now I think the plutocrats are the only people who know the history while they dumb down the working people by education, media, and entertainment.
Excellent and very sobering interview.
Also being assumed is global trade will be viable. While the US and West imagine they can repeat the fate of the USSR on China, the idea forgets that China is a much larger economy than the USSR. Again, climate whiplash is going to put all nations in the deepest economic crisis and global trade might just shatter on it.
I wish this interview had ended at 1 hour and 13 minutes in before he went off the rails and talked about how in liberal democracy's leaders are educated. Educated at engineering wars of choice in the Middle East, in the case of the United States leaders.
👏👏👏 all politicians and people should watch this .. 🙏
Supposing we avoid a nuclear war with all the current and approaching conflicts - we cannot adapt to/arrest climate change and fight WW III at the same time. Not only is war energy intensive, it is the opposite drive of the cooperation needed to solve a most complex crisis like climate change. Let’s hope people organize and put an end to these clowns madness.
Honest but trivial the writing on the wall goes back to Marx
Are they in any position to be able to be honest?
Hard for me to call them honest as their definition of democracy is absent and their discussion of autocrats is completely jingoistic.
They made a great point. If the Great Depression had not occurred when it did - Hitler and Mussolini would not have come to power.
Conversations like this gives me hope that americas best future are still yet ahead despite the enormous challenges
This type of epiphany happens sporadically within the ranks of the elites, but until such awakenings to reality become far more common, things will only continue to get worse.
We have a long way to go and little time to make the necessary changes.
Some comments as we go.
Did Martin ever consider that the reason he has ended up back where he started regarding his concerns is because capitalism, no matter if under the state or under private hands, doesn't work for the vast majority of people and only did so for a brief time post world war 2 due to massive reallocations of domestic spending via Keynesian methods that briefly aided in building a middle class until the system ran out of money, where by neoliberal methodology was adopted that redressed the balance back unto the minority capitalist classes leaving everyone else stagnant for the last 4 decades getting out ever increasing debt to keep their damned heads above water until the system crashed due to running out of money while breaking the populations left and right in search of anyone who will stop the shafting being brought unto them by the failures of capitalism which was exactly how Hitler got elected to office.
I would also like to thank him and any other economist who over the years prior to my birth and the 40 I have been here, worked tirelessly to push privatisation ("competition...") and markets into every aspect of life resulting in a 140% rise in the cost of energy in 12 months rendering myself and practically every millennial I know, beyond destitute and in ever growing rent and mortgage debt just to keep the lights on and feed their kids all on top of a housing and a private rental market gone insane.
And I would like to thank him for having "dealt with" the 2008 crisis, could you tell me when exactly is my generation going to feel the recovery from you having dealt with it as Christ knows it hasn't turned up to date.
There were points in ancient Greece where liberal democracy existed, the peasantry had the majority vote and freedoms and liberties there in and as their pottery can attest to they had no particular issues with sexual diversity at a minimum.
If you want a new democratic order that gives people sovereign discretion then you democratise the damned economy, where no democracy exists under the capitalist work place where people spend 70% of life, you take the damned corporations OFF the rich and you hand it to the people who work there, 1 worker, 1 vote, and they all decide as a community via democracy in that 70% of life, what, how, and where to produce, and what to do with the profits from that. See Mondragon for details.
At which point you've cut off the idle rich at the damned knee's as without there never ending sources of income for no work from dividends and rents they would soon profligate their way out of their fortunes and their descendants would be little better off than the rest of us with little ability to buy mass media assets and governments and you would finally for the first time in about 5,000 years end the top down anti democratic organisation of people to produce goods and services which has been the fatal flaw shared across all major economic systems over that time, while finally bringing democracy to 100% of life and when you extend such a system to the media you end up with a well informed population not a misinformed divided population on behalf of the handfuls of capitalist bastards who own the media.
I don't hear any of that from most economists who seem to believe pissing around at the margins of capitalism = radical change, it both does not and is not enough to satisfy what immutable physics governing a finite world demands of humanity for humanity to have a future on it, nor is such amelioration of harm enough to restore any belief that democracy under capitalism is worth more than spit.
Currently the worker owners in communist Chinas Huawei have more meaningful democracy in their lives than any westerner does. Which is why they just shared out 9.5 billion dollars between them all.
Excellent ending. Bravo and brilliant!!
Basically, the author wrote a book on the basis of misinformation of popularism, misunderstanding of how and why people distrusted the managerial elites (as demonstrated with Trump in office and Brexit) sprinkled with a generous helping of neuroses passed down by familial experience of war (he admits to this in his preface)
Great conversation! I would’ve liked to hear more from the host (the guest interrupted him quite a bit). But I thoroughly enjoyed what the guest had to say & I’d gladly watch the next conversation that these two gentlemen decide to share with us.
Insightful conversation. Interesting to see a member of the establishment realising the decay and fracturing of our democratic system. A good add on to this debate would be what Michael Every talks about ie how the international system is fracturing and reorganising.
"The only thing to fear is fear itself" -
Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
We have a lot to thank him for and we will fight to preserve it. Our youth is rising... t is their world and they know it. Great change is upon us in the next few years😊,
This was well worth the time, thank you! As of spring 2023 there is no recession and the youth are riding at the head of the vote for Democracy 💕🇺🇸💯
Our hope is to VOTE the greedies out!
VOTE OUT THE FASCISTS !!
Another take on the threat to democracy though is that it's also coming from the establishment center. Years ago, the president of Germany gave a speech in which he said that politicians weren't supposed to just get elected and then do whatever they pleased, they were supposed to represent the voters and the citizens. It was rather interesting that, and it was largely ignored. So, let's not forget that the "school master" form of authoritarianism is also growing. It's a gentler form of authoritarianism (unless you're someone like Julian Assange) but it seems to get a pass from most academic types. Trump's authoritarian impulses are quite easy to spot, but the authoritarianism of establishment institutions is an ever present threat and nobody seems to be giving it much notice except, in America, the so-called populist right. And that's only because they've been butting heads. God help us if those two forces ever link up.
Also, let's not forget that the surveillance state was created by Bush and protected by Obama. That's a huge threat to our freedoms and potentially, if not actually, threatens democratic governance and free elections. But, Trump didn't do it, so it gets a pass.
A lot of good points, but these two give a lot of free passes - Obama and banks most obvious. They mention the 31 trillion debt, deficiit, whatever it is the place is run on and then it just drops out into the too hard bag under the bench. Wonder what Mr Assange is eating tonight. Such a benevolent state the UK. It is still a state isn't it? Not just a free holding pen for enemies of the USA.
Thanks for this commentary 👌🏽
The only thing that distinguishes Henry Kissinger is his lack of humanity
More neoliberalism? thanks but no thanks! Not my kind of Wolf TBH, I'm more like into the Richard D. Wolff kind of wolves :P
Agreed
Damn right. The "minimum required of rational human beings". How dare these pompous twerps advise China how to improve their ways!
You have to get your microphone sorted... It is painful not having clarity of these important questions you are asking
There's no such thing as "democratic" capitalism. Capitalism as an economic system is inherently undemocratic as is capitalism as a sociopolitical system.
I think the idea of "democratic capitalism" here is that democratic institutions can act as a foil to the power of business interests. Think of things like the New Deal or the EPA in US. The history of liberal democracies in Europe support this. But, as democratic institutions decline and fragment, we lose the tool to regulate capitalism, so we revert to a harsher, more oppressive version of capitalism. Next step, populist revolt and rise of totalitarian tendencies. Understanding that a naive faith in "free market" ideology is first step in undermining democratic institutions.
Ya, we need a standard of accountability that does not require war for checks and balances. There needs to be checks before it gets that to that extreme.
Ask Yanis , Diem25
Lol, a "specialist" who thinks US and S. Korea flourished because they practiced free trade and opened up their internal markets, when in fact they did the exact opposite: protected their internal markets and companies through massive state intervention. Had the US done in the 18-19th centuries in relation to Great Britain what this "specialist" advises India to do now, the US economy would have been gobbled up by the much more powerful and developed British economy, and the Americans would have gone right back to being British subjects.
This gentleman dislikes anybody who isn't going along with the neoliberal order.
You have it ass-backwards.
A world banker changing his mind?Concerned with hyperfinance? Willing to listen? A unicorn.
Im a simple person. In democracies a vote with money has disporportionate weight on decisions. Which become grotesque in the US. People dont feel represented anymore. Nationalist have a strong focus on wellbeing the majority of the people in theire countries, which have much appeal in our times.
Oooo! Now do 'The Crisis of Military Intelligence'!, Then 'The Crisis of Fish Feathers'!
One thing I would criticize is the insistence on free trade.
We should have fair trade. Trade agreements that take labour rights into consideration, that allow countries to provide incentives for local production, and some Bretton Woods style system. Bretton Woods was extremely successful and nobody's talking about it anymore. And nobody is talking about the fact that the western economic boom happened when trade was regulated. We need to stop with these aut-narratives. Like everything, we need to find a balance. The solution is not to impose free trade and then build a welfare state to compensate for it, because we have seen that welfare is an extremely polarizing issue for which it's hard to find consensus in a socially very fragmented context.
And there is the delusion that gold has value. ;-)
1hr 11mins in & he still won't 1) acknowledge that being able to buy a bigger bullhorn is inconsistent with Democracy, let alone 2) consider it's relationship to Capital never being held accountable.
At core, it's mental gymnastics to defend old thinking.
I studied History then Psychology then Computer Information Systems that included economics but I have watched and studied medicine from my father mother who's families arrived to American colonies before 1725 . Males don't change have used violence to subjugate women from beginning of time without women participating equally in all decisions with child rearing that has never happened still with women going backwards in economic jobs. The women were forced to stop working to care for children that males didn't have to do this women and children went back 100 years from March 2020-2023.
It's not democratic in the sense of government of the people, by the people, for the people, but rather plutocracy. i.e. government of the rich, by the rich, for the rich. And it's loved by the rich as such because the rich can BUY access to power in whatever country it is practiced. Where there is no access to such power, the government is HATED. Also, just as how in these so-called democracies, people have been lied to by the media (themselves owned and operated by the rich corporations without exception) for decades, so they are lied to about what this democracy itself means! Seen in this light, democracies are immoral, corrupt systems incapable of redemption!
I couldn't continue listening, Rob's audio was so bad.
25 minutes in and I’m already bored. INET has been having this same “END OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY” debate for 7 YEARS now since Trump was elected. Trump lost, Bolsonaro lost. Can we move on please? Seems like some of these oldies have run of out ideas. Rob needs to get younger people on
Yeah, he seemed to think Bolawood is still in Brazil. Or was this made months ago.
And if Stefan Zweig wrote about the Invisible Republic of the Spirit he sure wasn't referring to types like this giving each other awards they've invented!
You have to make it socially unacceptable to want tax cuts and destroy the welfare state. If your peers express that sentiment you have to make them pay a social price and not allow it to be said as if it were a sensible or benign political position. Strangers can’t change peoples’ minds, it has to be friends, family members, peers and member of their own class.
You sound very sorry for yourself. ;-)
Martin Wolf is an intelligent, clever & articulate fellow, but he's eclipsed by men like Chris Hedges, Yanis Varoufakis, Satyajit Das and others in our complex & difficult world...
Richard D. Wolff is my favorite economic educator.
Brilliant! Thanks
I saw what happened but am only one person a system analyst has always been required that I was top in my class but women still not allowed in power.
Women indoctrinated to act like the horrid men that cause our problems in the first place will not save us.
Also, good to hear someone say that the distrust of expertise is regrettable, but also deserved. When it comes to foreign policy, is it not extraordinary in it's implications that the Neo-Conservatives are STILL in high levels of government!? Victoria Nuland is Under-Secretary of State!? Are you kidding? She should be blacklisted from having anything to do with foreign policy, as should her husband and their scumbag friends. But no, a vote for Biden was a vote for Neo-Conservative foreign policy. Both Biden and Blinken were pro Iraq War after all. So how is it that mistakes in Washington DC keep leading to promotions? How is it that corruption on Wall Street leads to corporate bailouts and more tax cuts? And Trump offered nothing when it came to these issues. It's another example of how DC is just a place where they do what they want and the results are simply unimportant. But thank God we don't live in Putin's Russia, right? We have our soft form of Putanism at home one might say.
One Mr Snowden seems more comfortable in Russia than he ever expected
Really bad audio from the person on the left.
I am glad that Trump woke him up. Better late than never.
I wish I was taught Latin and Greek
first, capitalism is innately not a democratic system it has nothing to do with democracy and has never been interested in promoting democracy.
secondly, liberalism has got nothing to do with democracy either. one of the greatest liberal philiospher J.S Mill himself is anti-democratic. the term "liberal democracy" frequently used by the media and people as a whole is just mind-boggling.
Minute 28:00 Why should a college educated person think they can make it in NYC? Perhaps they made a poor career choice.
If I ever do a movie about a mediocre bureaucrat who sits around thinking how he needs to get more power so that he can fix the lives of stupid people because he is so much smarter than they are, and then messes up everything he touches and can’t figure out why given how smart he is and how good is intentions are…I would base it on this guy.
Martin Wolf!
He's an unapologetic John Perkins
Very ponderous. And six years too late. Long term hindsight isn't Economics it is Economic History, at best.
Jeffrey Sachs
Very inspiring
Geography affects History Economics
I guess this guys need another half of his life to realize that when the US power declines, that the world will be more free and more democratic actually.
😂
Earth based system policy and agenda or cataclysm. For Sure.
The disillusionment of an ex-World Bank economist... 🤔
...and then along came Trump.😖
He's still delusional and hypocritical
@@SiphoNgwenya I take it you're referring to the cretinous Trump, not Martin Wolf! 👍
This guy’s analysis on authoritarianism is ironic given he’s most concerned about the individuals who are the least authoritarian.😅
Caligula, Nero Tiberius
No, that was not ‘broadly correct’. Those asian economies were uniquely suited to take advantage of trade liberalization, and are/were quite different from many developing economies, then and now. I do not enjoy so-called experts spend too much time justifying their past mistakes.
This "guest" with his elitist and sympathetic view of the super-rich class is precisely the reason that the young citizens of the world are disgusted with the status quo in whose bosom he comfortably rests.
What a wonderful world it would be if men like these were actually in charge !!!!! Where have we gone wrong !!!! iI seems you have to be a psychopathic narcissist to get ahead in the world of politics! Even my personal hope
of a potential transformational leader , Jacinta , has thrown in the towel and retreated to anonymous domesticity !!!! Not that I have a problem with women who choose motherhood over career !!!!
So China and the US can agree about....Taiwan?
This guest certainly likes the taste of boots.
Have bill black on
Elites propaganda
reading though the comments. the number of capitalism haters is truly revealing.
They know as little about either as you do. Two peas in a pod. ;-)
@@schmetterling4477 i think the YT rules state that you must be nice to me
@@thepyrrhonist6152 I was nice to you. I didn't tell you what I really think. ;-)
Almighty God blesses Everyone irrespective of Caste Colour Creed Sex Language Region or Religion
Not any of the gods we have invented so far. You must have made up a new one. ;-)
Suprising # of eastern European and russian bots 🤔
Oligarch Democratic Capitalism
The answer.is blowing in the wind.betles.😂😂😂😂
muh democracy
The very phrase "democratic capitalism" is an oxymoron. Democracy and capitalism have always been incompatible.
They seem to co-exist just fine. What destroys democracy isn't capitalism. It's stupid people. Don't be a stupid person. :-)