Spiral Prismatic Packing (SPP) Vs Copper Scrubbies : Is SPP Worth?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ย. 2020
- Is Spiral Prismatic Packing (SPP) worth the investment? Does it really give any advantage over something like copper scrubbies or rasher rings?
SPP is an alternative packing medium that gets rave reviews from those that use it. In this video, I run through a quick test to see if SPP lives up to the hype.
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#still #distilling #BubblePlate
Just in case you didn’t realize I often include affiliate links in my videos and descriptions.
This will not change the price for you at all, But the seller will buy my a cup of coffee if you purchase from one of the links. Choice eh? - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
Woohoo 100K!!! Congratulations! The SPP is really cool. Might have to get some for making sanitizer.
Yeah... Sanitizer.
I'd go ya halves on the shipping!
Yummy sanitizer.
Can definitely send ya some dude!
“…. or shellac thinner. The low-methanol stuff (that’s affordable) is no longer made…”
100k Congrats Dude, Thanks for all the awesome content.
Grats to the 100k, its great to watch our family steadily grow over the last years:)
Thank you Jesse
Congrats on 100k!! I just told George the same thing, you both have been so needed on TH-cam for people getting into the hobby.. ive been watching since the beginning and you’ve helped me a lot! Diff in America as you know, but I got my alcohol fuel license in 2016 and have been chasing the craft ever since!
Every time I see your shop behind you there is more going on. I am jealous. I learn something every time I watch one of your videos. Thank you.
Congrats on reaching 100k it's great to see both you and George reaching new heights!
Congratulations Jessie on 100 thousand subscribers! Well done mate!
Thanks for that - fascinating! food for thought ... look forward to your more in-depth exploration of the SPPs
CONGRATS ON 100K BRO!!!!! What a amazing accomplishment.
100 K Subscribers Congratulations Keep up the good work
Ahhh, congrats on 100k
Congratulations Jesse on 100k Subscriber's!! That's awesome 😎
Hi Jessie congratulations on the 100 000 subscribers, I enjoy the channel keep up the good work
Congratulations on 100,000 subscribers. !!
@ 7:08 While experimenting with packing, I once poured 90ish abv back into a boiler that had hot 10% wash. The alcohol I poured into the boiler instantly flashed into vapor. I thought I'd give a heads up to folks, so they wouldn't make my mistake.
No packing for me, I like the flavor I get from grain. Congrats on the 100k, moving to the BIG TIME 😁 Have a great weekend !!
ho Jesse I think that's part of why Genio stills get high ABV, SPP and look how long the column is there is another company using computers has the same thing. great work I really enjoy the channel
I have so much "product" now ive stopped fermenting should be fluid for the rest of the year lol truly one of the best things i ever spent money on , payed for itself in 3 months ...ye i may have a problem lol
Hey Jesse, great experiment. Would like to see you test whether SPP compresses the heads and tails the way people on the forums talk about it. 100K, well done!!
Congratulations, 100k subscriptions. Interesting video.
Congratulations on having half the world subscribed!
Hey!! 100K Congratulations!!!!
Happy 100.000 subscribers.
Congrats on 100K I take credit for 5% of those views lol I was checking those out thanks for giving them a run and reporting back. There is no suprise in the proof science explains that. I think there is something similar made out of copper I've seen browsing still porn , but I can't remember for sure I could be remembering wrong.
Well done on the 100K
congratulations on hitting 100k subscribers
Thank you for another kickass video.
Thank you for mentioning Poland. Yes, we watch your films here in Poland too. Greetings, by the way.
100k yes congrats bro
I'd be really keen to see the same run done again with scoria to compare as well. But I'm definitely considering adding a litre or two of spp to my column now.
Wow, 100k you must be doing something right. Congratulations.
Congratulations with your 100k subscribers bro
Great to see the still running again, personally it’s the distilling that I enjoy the most on the channel. Thanks for the comparison, it’s something I’ve been wondering about for a while but didn’t want to waste the cash until I was sure it was worth it. Ill be running the CCVM with SPP after seeing the proof now, time to get ordering from Poland. Thanks Jesse 👏🏻👍🏻.
Congrats on 100k subscribers Jesse, awesome mate 🥳 🍻.
Can recommend ones made by Plipek and another brand - Henitom. They're a bit more expensive, but it's totally worth it.
@@Tyresio12 thanks mate really appreciated. Is there any difference in quality between the two or are they much the same? Do you have any links for that? If not no worries I’ll just google search for them and get ordering.
Looking at Plipek now, there’s both copper and SS SPP any experience with the two? Any preference? I’ve a 3 inch 1 x meter column that’s copper so I’m thinking of just sticking with the SS SPP?
@@jock5656 They're comparable, so just go with the cheaper of the two. On copper vs steel - some guys around here use exclusively steel ones and they claim they're fine with it. Others use for stripping 25cm height bed of Cu (to catch sulfury compounds) , separated from the rest - the steel ones (steel ones provide more theoretical plates per height), and for the second one steel only to get the maximum number of "plates".
@@jock5656 So for example for stripping: 25cm Cu, separator, 90cm steel, and for the second run 120cm steel.
I have recently change over to spp myself and the difference is amazing.I was running a 1400'mm column with stainless scoures and was already getting azero at between 1/1.5 liters p/h during hearts collection.I'm now using a 950'mm column,still reaching azero but with a much cleaner taste and at about 2 liters p/h.One thing though ,spp is run differently than scourers,you need to run your column flooded with spp to get the most out of it,your test would have shown a even bigger difference if your column was flooded when using the spp.
Hey mate, by "run your column flooded" do you just mean have it fully packed with SSP for the entire packing section vs half full?
Have the column fully packed with spp,have a sight glass on top and run hard so the column is full of liquid just up to the sight glass so it is bubbling on top of the spp,you can't do this with other packing but it is the best way to run spp and works much more efficiently.
@@brycecampbell3005 is there any test online I can reference that shows the exact difference between running it like this video vs flooded? I have just bought a custom 4” 4 plate still with 500mm extension and 95L boiler with 2 x 2200W elements. I’m wondering if I can get away without flooding and just having bubble plates below the packing section. Still seems like it will work as proven in this video.
@@TPGMatt you can do it with plates.and a extension but just run normal packing and run normally,spp is only for a full column not plates,if you run a full column of spp and no.plates them run it flooded otherwise not much better than stainless scourers.
@@brycecampbell3005 but this video proved that it was better? I’ve read on home distiller that SSP is significantly better than scourers
The best Polish producers are Plipek and Henitom. As some users tested, their packing had HETP of about 2cm (iirc) - so with 100cm of packing you're not only reaching the azeotrope, but you also have some "spare" theoretical plates for better separation of other compounds.
If you're looking for other producers, check if the packing is tightly wound and length should be as close to diameter as possible.
Hehe dzięki ;)
Hi I have Plipek one of the best in Poland, from looking this springs are a little bit to big inform your guy to make one like this a.allegroimg.com/s720/0365e1/8098c84a42b2968c819da6056fca
@@jakubkuba4118 how much for 2 kg of your plipek? And do you ship to Norway?
@@wilhelmhelgaseth3605 I am not a producer only user ;) if you like to ask abut sell, this is email to manufacturer lipskitechmar@gmail.com
Been using these quite successfully. be good to see the difference of power you can throw at it and the take off rate. They really do work well
Good to know. Thanks👍
In general, SPP is great if you're going for the neutral spirit - with the same height, it will give you better separation of water and other compunds than scrubbies. But if you like the taste of grain, or you're making a fruit alcohol - just forget about it. It will just help you castrate the tastes you look after.
@Sheldon Robertson But why? If you're looking for tastes, just use no packing. Or something like scrubbies, with no or minimal reflux.
@@Tyresio12 It's sometimes beneficial if you're taking say a 6% all corn whiskey wash and adding a plate or two in order to get your barrel entry proof where you'd like it after a stripping run. It can also let you hit barrel entry proof (120-160) in a single run, so no stripping runs to worry about, which overall will save some time.
Remember, the only special thing about a given packing is how efficient it is, SPP doesn't remove flavor better than anything else, it just takes less of it to do so.
@@jttech44 " SPP doesn't remove flavor better than anything else, it just takes less of it to do so" - for me this exactly means it removes flavor better ;) less required for the same effect = more efficient.
@@Tyresio12 Yes, however, your original reply held the implication that you cannot use it for something like a 1-run whiskey, which is not the case, you just have to use less of it.
It's kindof a waste of money unless you're going for neutral though.
@@jttech44 And that's the point I can agree with.
Just want to say great video and thankyou for somehow getting me into this hobbie as today I finished my vin run and sac run and am now ready to get my lil Chinese potstill working it's guts out 👌👍
Great info as usual. Thx. Would have loved to know after proofing them down how they both compared in taste.
The result could be interesting, as I guess it is possible that the alcohol used still contained some heads. In this case, they would probably more concentrated in the sample made with SPP. The better comparison would be with following procedure: discarding the first 30ml and then collecting the sample for testing.
He'd need to do a cleaning run with the new packing before it would be safe to consume, which takes time, and that's likely why he skipped it.
Great video as always,congratulations on 100k subscribers,only thing i can see that might make a wery small difference is that you used the copper scrubs as pads to hold the spp in place,that might and i say might, dont take this as gospel help the spp run up the proof
I can't believe I am seeing this video for the first time! How did I miss this awesome video?? Have you ever tried Raschig rings for packing?
Good stuff Jesse. I'm bought a litre of 5mm x 5mm x 0.3mm SPP From Russia, running in a 2" VM column with a couple of copper scrubbers It has excellent thermal mass, and the take off speed is around 1.5L to 1.8L p/hr, compared to around 1L p/hr when packed with stainless and copper scrubbers. Great for clean neutral, it reaches 95%+ through entire run (scrubbers drop to below 90%) and it seems to be way better at compressing the heads/tails. SPP also works well in Boka columns with similar results.
It is definitely worth spending the extra $ for the added efficiency. Cheers
Where did you get yours from, i'm finding it hard to find that size to NZ
@@casiosinclair I could probably make smaller size for you but probably no great improvement unless you had say 11/2" column.
Great methodology!
awesome video.
Yes! These!.. i want them
Will have more stock by end of week!
I've got a 20L 2" Boka, When using SPP I get 1.5L @96.5% per hour, using Steel Scrubs I get 0.5L @96.5% per hour, So for me, it's three times faster for same results. I only use this for Vodka and gin, I have a pot still for getting flavours through
A note on reflux column height: In home distilling we need to avoid over doing the height. The average of a 2 or 3 inch reflux column is 54-68 inches. When you go up to 4 inch the column looses about 10 inches in height but that is made up by inside surface area.
As a noob, that's why I bought the bubble plate column, pre-made. From clawhammer. I have nothing to say but good things. But then again I have nothing to compare it to.
@@jimlippi4001 You are on the right path. Don't waste time and money on packings. A good 4-5 level bubble plate column can't be beat.
Height = purity. Diameter = speed. What do you mean by the 4" loses 10 inches but is made up by inside surface area?
@@inglishill4028 When a reflux system has a 4" column, it's max height is reduced by 10" compared to a 2" or 3" column. For example, if a 2" column is say 42" high, a 4" column would only be 32" to have equivalent reflux. The 4" column makes up the difference by its interior surface area which is considerably greater than the 2" or 3" column. Hope that explains things more clearly.
@@rocketsroc OK. I would disagree although. I would say anything under 1.2mtrs would fail to provide azeo with ease. My reasoning being that it is this height (not surface area) that is needed in order to separate the fractions with a modicum of precision. :)
When I was distilling before the fires in 2019 destroyed my still I packed my column with copper scrubbies but I unrolled them so they were a woven tube which flatted down to about 3 inches wide. I then rolled them up tightly using 2 scrubbies to make a 2'' cylinder to fit in the column - tying them together with
Some copper wire. This allowed me to get much more copper in the column than the way you used. Unfortunately I haven't been able to rebuild my still yet but viewing your old videos is getting me motivated to start again. Keep up the good work.
I've been thinking about giving SPP a try, but decided not to when I couldn't find any US sellers.
Thanks for your review!
I will be on Ebay soon but ya still got the high freight cost!
@@wookie45nz I understand. I'll keep an eye out, or feel free to message me! Looking specifically for copper.
@@LonelyRavenProductio I recommend stainless for strength and longevity and add a copper mesh at base.
@@LonelyRavenProductio You can ask some recommended Polish producers, I don't know however, if they ship to the US. Plipek pracowniametaloplastyczna.pl/ Henitom sprezynkipryzmatyczne.pl/
@@LonelyRavenProductio Shipping is about NZ$60 for 2l.
FYI - Kegland now sell a few different sizes of SPP. For Aus/NZ distillers this shouldn't be hard to track down.
Not much cheaper than wookie, although they're smaller sizes as wookie does 8mm.
Got a link to their supply?@@markh1603
Nice work on the 100k! I'm not quite ready to splash out on the SPP yet, where do you get your copper scrubbies from in NZ please?
You are a regular mad scientist my friend. It looks like an episode of breaking bad behind you. LOL
Something like your copper scrubbies or steel wool can be a very variable packing material for fractional distillation. The number of theoretical plates is heavily dependent on how tightly you pack it. Pack it tightly, and it can be one of the best packing materials you can find. Pack it loosely and it can be absolute garbage.
Would love if you could do a test on scoria too!
Scoria is great, sizing it is a bitch though and that first time you have to clean the rocks -_-
I can't get azeo on mine though.
60mm, 4", pea sized scoria, floods at 3.3kw... have it over two 4" bubble plates, get about 93% :@
Great episode Jesse. Stupid question: Why has the trim on the right side of your bar never been finished? My eye always goes to it, lol.
Yepp, that spp (or спн/spn) is widely used in Russia amongst the bokaw*nkers (reflux perfectionists) for at least 5 years or so. It came from the labs and not so cheap here, too. But the most of shiners do love the copper scrubbies. And I'm with them so far 🤘
Hey Jesse -- which gaskets are you using? Looks like PTFE. Do you feel like it seals well? Thanks man.
So what was your "stopping" criteria for packing the column with just the scrubbies? As many as you could physically compress manually, or a certain weight/number? Did you try do a rough surface area calculation and try and get the same for each material?
Gotta try them out. I actually tried some molecular sieves in a 24" column section a few weeks back and saw an 18- 20avb gain on the two runs I tested. Interesting how those things work.
Molecular sieves general need to be cooked dry between uses though, don't they?
@@AdamMansbridge yeah, they do. I watched a few vids show pop them in oven for 30-45 min at 400°. Seems to work good. I vacuum seal them after they cool.
Jessie I have a fair question to ask you, why did you choose copper against stainless steel? By the way been really enjoying your videos!!!
Could you try the scrubbies, but point a fan at your column? I think that could be really effective if you can get a lot of airflow over your column.
Gday jessie, recently bought a 35ltr brewzilla for all grain beer brewing, but what fo you think about purchasing the pot still lid and attachment for the unit? If i was to put a fermented whiskey wash into the malt pipe, would that allow distillation with solids? Im looking to get further into distilling as ive been running a t500 for a few years now
I used to run a 2 inch column reflux still That used copper rings made from rings of 14 ga copper wire. I made the rings by winding the wire around a 3/4 in dowel and took the resulting coil and cut it with aviation snips, voila! I quickly had a pile of copper rings. I just dropped them into the column an achieved over 185 proof. admittedly, I generally ran my still very slow.
I'd expect you might get a flavor difference too. If you had ran the potato vodka through the spp, do you think there would be any residual flavor that worked well for the gin?
Jess!!
Can I ask a newbie question please.
I’ve a 240v digi boiler with a alcoo engine column.
My question being how do I change the wiring on bottom of boiler to add a voltage controller. So I can keep a rolling temperature as apposed to peaks and troughs boiling and switching on and off elements??
Thanks in advance brother.
The true test is; run one in your copper setup and one in a stainless setup. BTW, in this test you're using copper scrubies in both cases. It was very interesting though.
Do you feel you lose the benefit of sulfite removal if you switch from no longer using the copper scubbies?
Thank you so much .. off to buy Solid Bare Copper Wire contains 99.999% Copper and copper wire wrapped around a piece of wood ,,& cut to length !!!!!!!!!!!
Hey Jesse,
Can you do another video on SPP? I read it is meant to be run in a semi-flooded column (whatever that means) DAD3000 said it should be a "semi-aquatic environment" but again, i have no idea if that means i should flood the column or not.
You can get also springs made from Cu. One of the best choice for column.
Stainless steel ones have better HETP parameter however. This, and lower price, are the main reason most people over here use Cu only as an addition, or none at all.
@@Tyresio12 I am just saying that he can buy springa made from copper because he compare stainless spring with copper scrub. It would be better to comper Cu and Cu, because of HEPT.
All know that Cu could be used on entire length but it is point less and only 20-30cm is enough. We all also know that on copper potstil you may not use copper inside.
@@lukaszbak5601 100% agreed.
100k ! Cheers
Hey jesse, now that you have the t500, maybe try the spp instead of the saddles for a comparison
Oh that will be happening for sure :)
My column is similar. 1m tall. Half is packed with scrubbys and half marbles and I run 95% easy with my deflagmator
11:07 YEAH Poland!
Nice job. i use solid copper tiny balls.
What's the difference in sulfur or sulfides or whatever in the distillate from using copper versus the spp spiral things?
How did the taste test go? did the lack of copper effect the finished product?
Hey mate, fellow Kiwi here. I'm an avid home brewer who makes beer and cider and I'm looking to get into the distilling side of things. I have a Grainfather and was wondering if you had any opinions on using the Grainfather and the Grainfather distilling attachment which is the Copper Dome Top and Alembic Condenser? Would that be a good starting point or would purchasing a reflux still be bettter? I'm wanting to start by making gin and vodka for now.
You may want to check out george over on Barley and Hops Brewing, he's a big fan of the turbo 500 setups. The dome top is more a pot still add-on not a reflux one.
The Grainfather woild be a great boiler for a still. You can get the stainless lid for it and then add any modular pot/reflux column. Get a 2" bulkhead threaded adapter with tri-clamp ferrule and then anything will connect up to it 👍
@@puddingwar5110 thanks! I’ll check it out.
@@mikesterv thanks! I’ll do some research.
Can’t find it on TradeMe… but I found it on eBay .. they won’t ship to NZ … but I found some that’s made in Poland in the UK… so shipment is on the way also bonus because it’s copper SPP not stainless steel 🎉
Now I'm curious as to why they work better. Is it because their made of stainless and it's thermal conductivity is way lower than copper's? Is it the higher thermal mass? A combination of both? Or maybe the shape? Would be great if the guy making these could make some out of copper wire of the same gauge and see how they compare.
Shape is very important (also ideally length should be the same as a diameter) as it is crucial to achieve a maximum area per unit of volume - the greater this parameter, the better the contact of vapor and liquid. But material is also important - copper SPPs of the same shape have about 3x larger HETP (Height Equivalent to Theoretical Plate, bigger is worse). So yeah, probably heat tranfer, density and who knows what that is dependant on material also plays a role.
Wise choice to still include some copper in the column, even if you're using SPP. One, much easier to get it to not drop into your still, and two, running the vapor over copper tends to remove some of the sulfur containing compounds in the product, and you don't need much to accomplish that.
For the class, you get sulfur compounds from stressed yeast, and stress is almost always happening with anything high ABV, like over 8% or so. It's not really a big deal, nor is it particularly avoidable, or even worth avoiding because including a little copper in your vapor path will sort it out with no real downside.
Did you use a precondenser with the “SPP”?
I would have liked to see Ceramic Raschig Rings enter the competition.
It looked like used used 4 copper scrubbies in the copper test and in the SPP test you used 3 copper scrubbies. So it wasn’t a test of one vs the other, but one vs combined. Although I have no idea how you would get the SPP to stay in the column without the scrubbies so that you can test one against the other.
There is also copper SPP too. Not sure if that would be any different to stainless.
You could have a flat stainless mesh at base and delete the top mesh and would see a slight increase in ABV.
The call out to the Reflux video Card @2:10-2:13 is not there.
I may have missed it but did you find a difference in rate of production between the two? Not so fussed about purity - get that with 12 stainless scourers - but rate of take off is 500ml/hr.
SPP will let you run faster, provided you've got the power to keep the column full and you don't boil anything over into the column. Usually about 30% faster, so you'd probably be close to a liter/hr.
The other thing to consider is a larger column. a 3" column on a 15 gallon boiler will run much faster than a 2in column, provided you have the power to run it. In terms of investment, I'd start there and price it out before I sprung for SPP.
Wether it was a bad idea or not. I used Goldilocks pot scrubbers back in the day
Have you thought of doing bubble plates with refluxing yet???
What do you mean by this? Bubble plates do make use of a reflux. The liquid you see on working plates is the very reflux you mentioned.
I Like your video. Got a question, is Hawaii over seas? Same ocean. 👍 👍 Shaka brada ooooxoo
Aye bro where'd you get that mint shirt?
Tell me you covered the 1st distillate after it came out.
Is the autofocus off for bench scenes? Looks like it’s focusing on the backboards.
Do you have any Pall-Rings that T500 come with? That thing puts out 92-94% the entire run.
It's not quite a straight up comparison since both runs contained copper scrubbies. I think you should use a Tri Clamp Filter Plate at the base and run copper only then Spiral only.
You can get distillation packing at best value vacuum
100k and going up! congrats Jesse!
Now, how many centimeters of SPP did you use? could be pretty expensive to fill in part of my 4'' column.
Thanks for your video, very helpful! :)
I think Jesse used the whole 1.7 L SPP to fill the column.
I'm actually kind of surprised that you didn't get azeotrope from that column length. I run a 2" VM-E-ARC with SPP with a shorter main column and get azeotrope with around 1m of effective column of SPP below the heads column and a 1.5-3L/hr of take-off depending on where in the run I'm at.
The wash was only at 3% though..
@@wookie45nz Yeah, I noticed that on a second view of the clip. Explains a bit, especially if he wasn't putting it into full reflux and then aimed for azeotrope by adjusting output.
You get them spirals in copper too Jessi
How full do you fill your column with the spp would like to try them i use copper mess right now
Fill right up to dephlag coil