The unfortunate thing is that you don't actually know how toxic the lab is until it's too late... From a personal experience as well as hearing first-hand from other PhD students, the first year of the PhD seems to be fine, but everything goes downhill from the second year onwards, when PIs get a bit too... comfortable. It was too late for me to get out of the lab in my second year. I stuck it out for a bit like you said but it was such a bad decision. It got to a point where I wanted to quit. The graduate school couldn't do much for me, and was reluctant for me to change labs because of politics. If I quit, I have to go back to my home country (visa requirements) instead of having some time to find another opportunity to make a transition. The system needs to change.
Thanks for writing, I am sorry this happened to you. I had not considered that things can seem fine at first and then deteriorate. Yes, once you are in a situation like this it is very difficult. The best cause of action is to get out, but that is complicated for many reasons, as you write. I agree that the system should protect people, but it really doesn't.
Exactly. It is too late to change labs. I just want a tactic to survive and graduate as fast as possible. My PI is not the main issue but some lab members. They are quite toxic and drag people to their camp, that’s why I don’t want to leave because I know there is a way to survive.
This is part one of a mini-series on toxic labs and PIs. I look forward to your comments. This is a rather serious and tricky topic. And it is a shame that it is such a problem. But we need to talk about it.
Yes, the feeling of not being trusted and not being respected can arise in such an atmosphere. It's really bad, and it can even make you feel depressed. As a PhD student, I couldn't agree more! But to make matters worse, you're graduating and you need your advisor's recommendation for a post doctoral position, so you just have to put up with it.
Thanks for writing. Yes, this is terrible all around. Ideally the mentor-student relationship does not end with the graduation, but this is something that can last a lifetime. If you have a toxic advisor you miss out on this. The best solution is to get out of such a situation once you're realizing you are in such a workplace, but this is easier said than done.
@@mrillig Hit the nail on the head. Leaving is the best option, no one. Especially for students who have a long-term commitment to scientific research, we should take action rather than simply complain.
That's such an important topic you discussed. Thanks a lot. I used to work in a lab where my supervisor was so supportive. However, some of the lab members made me feel I didn't belong there. I was quiet and moved on eventually because of those fear you mentioned. Now I work in a lab where I am so valued. If I break a million pounds instrument, my manager will come and say 'oh this bloody instrument does not work!' 😂. This makes me so relaxed and confident that the chances of actually breaking the instrument are very low😅
Thanks so much. Yes, this sort of trust is highly valuable. I am glad you are now in a good situation. I still hope you don't break an expensive piece of equipment, though! :)
I really appriciate how you took the time to emphasize that I should avoid such a toxic PI. I already earned Ph.D in a toxic lab recently and I'm doing my best to get out of here and find for a decent lab for postdoc. Thank you sir!
Mental health plays a vital role in research as in other fields of life. If one is not appreciated for achieving small tasks, he/she feels small and less motivated to move to another step. it is also pity if you are afraid to bring it forward in a lab where you know PI will eventually be informed.
Sadly, I'm in a lab like that. I just started my 2nd year and was thinking about just keep going (funded, they publish a lot of papers, etc). But now I'm really considering quitting the PhD and starting again in another lab, for the sake of my mental health.
Thanks for this video! And I look forward to the next video on how to spot toxic labs. I am looking for a supportive lab for my postdoc. I don't want to go back to the same hell I went through in my PhD
I have 15 years of academia, and I always had a good relationship with my supervisors and colleagues. However, during my first postdoc, I had the most horrible experience of my life. After some time, I heard that the PI was badmouthing me to other colleagues. Then I decided to contact people that worked with the PI in the past, in another country. I heard that their experience was also horrible. Same patterns of behavior. I never considered killing myself, but every day I was thinking about it while going to the lab. My advice is, if you are in this situation, please talk with a psychologist. Suffering in silence is terrible. I am about to leave the place where this experience happened, but I will need a long time to recover and feel better.
Thanks for writing and for sharing your experience. This is horrible, I am sorry you went through this. Yes, absolutely, seeking professional help is essential when the situation is serious.
I'm easy but when someone bullies me I fight back. 2 years ago a lead on a project pushed my buttons and I yelled at him in front of the entire team. Everyone went silent. I was expecting a call from my manager and HR but nothing happened. I talked to my manager and he said that the guy was removed as a manager because he couldn't control his anger. He gave me the dagger eye's when we met one-on-one but I looked him in eye when I talked to him. He was a big guy and into the martial arts and if he said let's go I would have gone a few rounds with him. After that he always treated me with respect. He cost me some points on a bonus but I hold my manager I would do it again. If you are weak the climber creeps will just walk over you so don't let them do that.
Because of the toxic PI , I lost my interest in research. I am pre-grad and I have quite high experiences in research. I was so motivated until now all the years but now I feel like I am lost, unsuccessful, useless, pissed off
The unfortunate thing is that you don't actually know how toxic the lab is until it's too late... From a personal experience as well as hearing first-hand from other PhD students, the first year of the PhD seems to be fine, but everything goes downhill from the second year onwards, when PIs get a bit too... comfortable. It was too late for me to get out of the lab in my second year. I stuck it out for a bit like you said but it was such a bad decision. It got to a point where I wanted to quit. The graduate school couldn't do much for me, and was reluctant for me to change labs because of politics. If I quit, I have to go back to my home country (visa requirements) instead of having some time to find another opportunity to make a transition. The system needs to change.
Thanks for writing, I am sorry this happened to you. I had not considered that things can seem fine at first and then deteriorate.
Yes, once you are in a situation like this it is very difficult. The best cause of action is to get out, but that is complicated for many reasons, as you write. I agree that the system should protect people, but it really doesn't.
Exactly. It is too late to change labs. I just want a tactic to survive and graduate as fast as possible. My PI is not the main issue but some lab members. They are quite toxic and drag people to their camp, that’s why I don’t want to leave because I know there is a way to survive.
Good luck to us all. I'm a month away from submitting and survived an awful 4 years you can do it too!@@di3486
Friend, these systems are as old as fossil fuels. By that we mean, inflammatory and deadly and highly funded unless a complete wipe off happens.
This is part one of a mini-series on toxic labs and PIs. I look forward to your comments. This is a rather serious and tricky topic. And it is a shame that it is such a problem. But we need to talk about it.
Thanks, great info! What about how to be a fair coauthor and how to select fair coauthors? What is accepted and what should not be accepted?
Thanks, a good topic for a video!
@mf8914 an interesting point, thanks for bringing this up
Yes, the feeling of not being trusted and not being respected can arise in such an atmosphere. It's really bad, and it can even make you feel depressed. As a PhD student, I couldn't agree more! But to make matters worse, you're graduating and you need your advisor's recommendation for a post doctoral position, so you just have to put up with it.
Thanks for writing. Yes, this is terrible all around. Ideally the mentor-student relationship does not end with the graduation, but this is something that can last a lifetime. If you have a toxic advisor you miss out on this. The best solution is to get out of such a situation once you're realizing you are in such a workplace, but this is easier said than done.
@@mrillig Hit the nail on the head. Leaving is the best option, no one. Especially for students who have a long-term commitment to scientific research, we should take action rather than simply complain.
That's such an important topic you discussed. Thanks a lot. I used to work in a lab where my supervisor was so supportive. However, some of the lab members made me feel I didn't belong there. I was quiet and moved on eventually because of those fear you mentioned.
Now I work in a lab where I am so valued. If I break a million pounds instrument, my manager will come and say 'oh this bloody instrument does not work!' 😂. This makes me so relaxed and confident that the chances of actually breaking the instrument are very low😅
Thanks so much. Yes, this sort of trust is highly valuable. I am glad you are now in a good situation. I still hope you don't break an expensive piece of equipment, though! :)
Thank you for sharing this info! Toxic labs are quite common in Academia. It's extremely important to be aware of that in advance.
Thanks!
I really appriciate how you took the time to emphasize that I should avoid such a toxic PI. I already earned Ph.D in a toxic lab recently and I'm doing my best to get out of here and find for a decent lab for postdoc. Thank you sir!
Thanks for writing. Sorry about your experience during your PhD, I hope you find a great lab for your postdoc. All the best!
@@mrillig Thanks 😊
Mental health plays a vital role in research as in other fields of life. If one is not appreciated for achieving small tasks, he/she feels small and less motivated to move to another step. it is also pity if you are afraid to bring it forward in a lab where you know PI will eventually be informed.
Thanks for writing. I agree, mental health and a supportive lab environment are extremely important.
Thanks Prof Rillig for this fantastic video! Youngsters and even mid-career researchers are indeed getting lot of benefit from your youtube channels.
Thanks so much! :)
Sadly, I'm in a lab like that. I just started my 2nd year and was thinking about just keep going (funded, they publish a lot of papers, etc). But now I'm really considering quitting the PhD and starting again in another lab, for the sake of my mental health.
I am sorry you are in such a situation. I wish you all the best with finding a better lab. This is a difficult move.
Thank you very much for putting these videos out! They are very helpful!
Thanks!!
Thanks for bringing this up! Proving your cleverness, too 😉. Best regards, Juliane
Danke, Juliane. :)
Thanks for this video! And I look forward to the next video on how to spot toxic labs. I am looking for a supportive lab for my postdoc. I don't want to go back to the same hell I went through in my PhD
Thanks! I hope you find a good lab for your postdoc; kudos to you for making it through your PhD under such conditions!
I have 15 years of academia, and I always had a good relationship with my supervisors and colleagues. However, during my first postdoc, I had the most horrible experience of my life. After some time, I heard that the PI was badmouthing me to other colleagues. Then I decided to contact people that worked with the PI in the past, in another country. I heard that their experience was also horrible. Same patterns of behavior. I never considered killing myself, but every day I was thinking about it while going to the lab. My advice is, if you are in this situation, please talk with a psychologist. Suffering in silence is terrible. I am about to leave the place where this experience happened, but I will need a long time to recover and feel better.
Thanks for writing and for sharing your experience. This is horrible, I am sorry you went through this. Yes, absolutely, seeking professional help is essential when the situation is serious.
Thank you for this video
Glad you find it to be useful. Hope you can avoid these situations..
Part 2 of this series on toxic labs deals with how to spot these workplaces during and after the interview: th-cam.com/video/TVXk2hUo5qA/w-d-xo.html
I'm easy but when someone bullies me I fight back. 2 years ago a lead on a project pushed my buttons and I yelled at him in front of the entire team. Everyone went silent. I was expecting a call from my manager and HR but nothing happened. I talked to my manager and he said that the guy was removed as a manager because he couldn't control his anger. He gave me the dagger eye's when we met one-on-one but I looked him in eye when I talked to him. He was a big guy and into the martial arts and if he said let's go I would have gone a few rounds with him. After that he always treated me with respect. He cost me some points on a bonus but I hold my manager I would do it again. If you are weak the climber creeps will just walk over you so don't let them do that.
Too bad there was this bullying in the first place. Good that you stood up for yourself.
Because of the toxic PI , I lost my interest in research. I am pre-grad and I have quite high experiences in research. I was so motivated until now all the years but now I feel like I am lost, unsuccessful, useless, pissed off
Very sorry to hear this, and that this happened to you. I wish you all the best moving forward...
I want to work in your lab!
:)
6:25 this happened 😅
😅