Great job guys. You made it fun and interesting and noteworthy. Thank you. 🙏 It’s heart warming to see people with nice personalities all connecting and conversing ❤
Its because it never happened. Joseph Smith never started polygamy Brigham Young did. see youtube "Mormon Rescue" and other views on this, its getting bigger and bigger. The LDS church is trying to cover it up cuz it makes them look really bad
If Joseph Smith could make people believe his story of a visit from God and Jesus; his story about the angel Moroni and the golden plates; and his stories about John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John restoring the priesthood to him----then convincing women that an angel with a drawn sword and commanded him to practice polygamy was small potatoes. As Abraham Lincoln said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time."
Great analysis from all of your panel on this absurd effort to portray evil as good. I especially appreciated Aimee's female perspective. Even if there were clear scriptures to support plural wives, which there aren't, it is not an appropriate topic for primary. If parents want to teach their young children to embrace this lifestyle, they are free to do so. But no one should be allowed to teach these concepts to the children of others, especially without parental consent.
Apparently, church curriculum writers have decided that they need to try to "inoculate" young children by giving them a "primer" on polygamy, so they won't be blindsided with it in their teen or young adult years. But the church's problem is that they apparently don't realize that with modern sensibilities and social mores, the vast majority of church members will not accept those apologetic efforts. The current upsurge of these "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" is the product of modern Mormons completely rejecting the legitimacy of polygamy. That's why they're trying to blame the whole thing on Brigham Young--- so they can maintain an image in their minds that Joseph Smith was pure and holy.
Deuteronomy 17:17 ESV And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away. My personal opinion is God never commanded polygamy biblically. He allowed it. There's a difference. I agree with Kai that if you look at what happened to the men that praticed it, it didnt turn out very well for them. Seems to me that those examples are in the Bible for a reason. I was a member of the church for 54 years (born into it) up until this year when I left after discovering things I never knew about the church that they hid from members or lied about.
" if you look at what happened to the men that practiced it, it didnt turn out very well for them." Indeed, including such men as Joseph and Hyrum Smith: "On Thursday evening we gave the history of Nauvoo, and the events that led to the death of the Smiths, which, of course, we traced to the introduction of the spiritual wife system; for all that know any thing about it, that it was the introduction of that system which led to the death of the Smiths, and that if that system had not been introduced, they might have been living men to-day."---Sidney Rigdon, March 15, 1845. "They introduced a base system of polygamy, worse by far than that of the heathen; this system of corruption brought a train of evils with it, which terminated in their entire ruin. After this system was introduced, being in opposition [to] the laws of the land, they, had to put truth at defiance to conceal it, and in order to do it, perjury was often practiced. This system was introduced by the Smiths some time before their death, and was the thing which put them into the power of their enemies, and was the immediate cause of their death."---Sidney Rigdon, June, 1846.
Arg, that’s the name I couldn’t think of, Flora Ann Woodworth! I have thousands of Mormon history trivia items stored in my brain, and yet _every single time_ I have to look up this one girl’s name! It’s really weird how i can memorize so much but never her name.
Flora was the 16 year old girl to whom Joseph gave a gold watch. "In the midst of these encounters, Emma, became aware of the relationship when she recognized a gold watch that Joseph had given to Flora as a gift. On August 22nd William Clayton recorded: “President Joseph told me that he had difficulty with E[mma] yesterday. She rode up to Woodworths with him and called while he came to the Temple. When he returned she was demanding the gold watch of F[lora]. He reproved her for her evil treatment. On their return home she abused him much and also when he got home. He had to use harsh measures to put a stop to her abuse but finally succeeded.”
Now I want to see how people who were raised under the polygamy system would look at this. Would they laugh as how ridiculous the story is being told as well? Would they recognize how much the church is leaving out and how much they are softening it?
The So Called Church has really painted itself into a corner. They need to desperately disavow many of its teachings. But by doing so they also demonstrate that Rusty and their “prophets” can NOT be trusted to speak for God. Every unique Mormon theology has issues.
@@unfeigned4997 Please. Don't fool yourself. Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy. Smith plural married at least 11 women who were currently married to other men. Among them were the wives of apostles and other high-ranking church leaders. The most notable example being Nancy Marinda Hyde, the wife of apostle Orson Hyde. Smith plural married her while Orson was on his mission to rededicate the land of Israel for the return of the Jews. Marinda faithfully accepted plural marriage, and she acted as a "groomer" to prepare other women to be introducted into plural marriage by Joseph. Another one was Zina Huntington Jacobs, the wife of Henry Jacobs. Later, Zina became the general president of the Relief Society after Eliza R. Snow's death. Also, I assume you've heard the story that Joseph Smith told apostle Heber C. Kimball to give him his wife Vilate. Heber asked Smith to take his 14 year old daughter Helen instead, which Smith did. Smith also proposed plural marriage to apostle Orson Pratt's wife Sarah, but she rejected him. You can do a simple google search and learn details of Smith's 11 polyandrous wives. One such site with a complete list is "Remembering the Wives of Joseph Smith."
We are all related. I am a convert and I discovered that I have pioneer Mormon ancestors Maria Heaps and Sam Oldham who had about 8 or so children who practiced polygamy. When I see the last names of people who were or are church members I see the names of my ancestors: Taylor, Butler, Worsley, Evans, Dixon, Hansen, Kimball, Wilcox……. Interesting
My husband shares ancestry with Joseph Smith and tells people. I tell him that’s EMBARRASSING 😅 😂. I share ancestry with Emma Hale Smith and that makes for some great arguments that I always win! 😂
The way I see it is that making either assignment open for the YM or the YW keeps the young women from being pigeonholed into that traditional role. YW can clean up too. There are super creative YM who might like those opportunities to bake or decorate.
This is geared towards the churches stance, which is that he did it. We could have a debate about whether Joseph did it but that’s separate topic all together
That’s the crux of the matter. Either the Church is guilty of teaching a doctored (twisted, actually) history of their founder OR they are guilty of praising a man who married other men’s wives (and other men’s children really) as someone worthy to be a mouthpiece for God. They can’t possibly win.
That’s the crux of the matter. Either the Church is guilty of teaching a doctored (twisted, actually) history of their founder OR they are guilty of praising a man who married other men’s wives (and other men’s children really) as someone worthy to be a mouthpiece for God. They can’t possibly win.
@@Thebishopsinterview if you do a debate, you really need to have Jeremy Hoop of the Still Mormon podcast on that panel. He knows this topic better than anyone.
So, did Joseph disobey God with the doctrine of plural marriage by not having any known progeny with his plural wives? It seems that is the purpose the church claims for practicing polygamy. The church is desperate in trying to point to God commanding biblical polygamy when in reality, it is a false assumption. God never commanded the practice even though it happened as sin. If God wanted polygamy as the norm in marriaage, He would have created Adam and several Eves! I think this only proves that Joseph was a false prophet with a false revelation.
Polygamy lessons for kids? Ugh! This disgusts me too, but for reasons beyond the ones discussed. Please consider the latest research and evidence that has come forward, showing that it is very likely that that it was Brigham Young who started polygamy, not Joseph Smith. There’s massive amounts of source evidence coming forward. It’s a huge scandal. The expert on the subject is Jeremy Hoop of the “Still Mormon” podcast. He’s exposing the role that Brigham Young played. He got ahold of Agusta Cobb’s letters to her husband, Brigham Young and it’s looking pretty ugly. No one has ever exposed this stuff until now. Nathan, you should interview him. I agree with you guys that D&C 132 is disgusting and truly awful towards Emma. Brigham most likely wrote it, not JS. The Lord would never speak about Emma that way, but Brigham would. It’s full of errors about Moses, Isaac, King Solomon and David and contradicts the Bible and Jacob 2&3, which Joseph translated. He would not have made those errors. Literally, D&C 132 says the opposite of Jacob 2&3, regarding King Solomon and David and the practice of polygamy. Joseph knew the Bible inside and out and would not have made those obvious errors. 50 years after JS’ murder, BY replaced JS’ Law on Marriage (original D&C 101) with 132. Hmm…pretty fishy! Please check out the latest research to stay abreast on the polygamy debates. But I agree that the church needs to repent of this horrid “doctrine” and move forward.
I love Jeremy’s “Still Mormon” podcast! He’s incredible! The stuff he’s exposing is truly shocking-especially the Agusta Cobbs stuff that you mentioned. He’s also done the most extensive and comprehensive research on Fanny Alger and proved that Joseph did NOT sleep with her and never married her. He has totally stumped the church’s historians. Kind of fun to watch it play out.
@@unfeigned4997I agree with both of you. “Still Mormon” is fascinating! I don’t believe Joseph started polygamy either. How could he practice polygamy and have all those supposed fights with his wife about it when he said early on that he’d lose the gift of translating if they argued? He totally adored Emma. The Lord wouldn’t have picked a completely dysfunctional couple to restore His church, nor a man who supposedly treats his daughters the way everyone says he treated them, which is a lie. It was definitely Brigham who started the whole scandal. Totally agree!
You just have to watch his episodes on it. Agusta was Brigham’s second plural wife. Her letters to Brigham have been kept at the Wisconsin Historical Society and they gave them to Jeremy! No one has ever publicly shared these letters before, not even the historians and he has them! They reveal some pretty upsetting things about Brigham’s and her marriage and what was going on with polygamy. Turns out that Joseph Smith never taught the doctrine of polygamy. Brigham totally blamed it all on Joseph. Truth is coming out! Grab your popcorn folks.
I'm gonna try to set you straight. There is no question that Joseph Smith was the man who introduced polygamy into Mormonism, and that he plural married more than 30 women. About 130 people in Nauvoo had heard about polygamy, and every single one of them said that they learned it directly from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. There is a mountain of documentation from letters, journals, court testimony, newspapers, and legal affidavits to support that fact. Every legitimate historian who has published on this subject beginning with Fawn Brodie in 1946 concurs with that. These modern day "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" such as Jeremy Hoop and Michelle Stone are not legitimate historians. Rather, they are hobbyists and conspiracy theorists. They want to believe that Smith had nothing to do with polygamy because they know that if they concede that he did, that it means that Smith was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. So Jeremy and his fellow travelers have gone into intellectual denial of the facts. As an example, a few weeks ago, Jeremy did an episode in which he quoted Emily Partridge's memoirs wherein she lamented how sad her life as a plural wife of Brigham Young had been. But Jeremy neglected to mention that Emily also made it perfectly clear in other writings that she had first been a plural wife of Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. In fact, the reason Emily and many other Nauvoo women went to Utah with the Brighamites was because they had been inducted into plural marriage by Joseph before his death. I mentioned these facts to Jeremy Hoop, and he never responded to me. So that shows that Jeremy is in intellectual denial of facts which counter his chosen views. As for your comment that Brigham wrote D&C 132, that is a completely false theory. Joseph Smith began espousing his principles of "celestial marriage", and proposing it to women, in the spring of 1842. Numerous eyewitness participants quoted verbiage from the "revelation on celestial marriage" beginning during that period. One such example is from a 17 year old girl named Martha Brotherton, which was published on July 13, 1842: "brother Joseph has had a revelation from God that it is lawful and right for a man to have two wives; for as it was in the days of Abraham, so it shall be in these last days and whoever is the first that is willing to take up the cross will receive the greatest blessings; and if you will accept of me I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom." Joseph Smith's secret, illicit "spiritual wifery" practice was the primary reason for the opposition he drew for the last ten months of his life. In fact, polygamy was the prime cause of his and Hyrum's deaths. So these people who theorize that Brigham Young wrote the revelation sometime after Joseph's death are completely wrong.
Congratulations to each of you for leaving Mormonism. ❤ I hope you landed softly and, like Kai, I hope you find the real Jesus (vs fictional Mormon Jesus) if you haven’t already
Thanks for your comment. I will say, it was a brutal path to trust religion after leaving the Mormon Church. I have a ton of compassion for anyone who has left and doesn’t really know where to go next.
It definitely did not come from any God, but it most definitely came from Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith began espousing the principles of "celestial marriage" in the spring of 1842. Numerous people from then until Joseph's death two years later quoted verbiage from the "revelation on celestial marriage" when relating what Joseph had taught them. The first such instance I'm aware of is in a letter from a 17 year old girl named Martha Brotherton, which was published on July 13, 1842: " Joseph came in and spoke to one of the clerks, and then went up stairs followed by Young. Immediately after Kimball came in. "Now, Martha," said he, "the Prophet has come; come up stairs." I went, and we found Young and the Prophet alone. I was introduced to the Prophet by Young. Joseph offered me his seat, and, to my astonishment, the moment I was seated Joseph and Kimball walked out of the room, and left me with Young, who arose, locked the door, closed the window, and drew the curtain. He then came and sat before me and said, "This is our private room, Martha." "Indeed, sir," said I, "I must be highly honored to be permitted to enter it." He smiled, and then proceeded -- "Sister Martha, I want to ask you a few questions; will you answer them?" "Yes, sir," said I. "And will you promise not to mention them to any one?" "If it is your desire, sir," said I, "I will not." "And you will not think any the worse of me for it, will you, Martha?" said he. "No sir," I replied. "Well," said he, "what are your feelings towards me?" -- I replied, "My feelings are just the same towards you that they ever were, sir.." "But, to come to the point more closely," said he, "have not you an affection for me, that, were it lawful and right, you could accept of me for your husband and companion?" My feelings at that moment were indescribable. God only knows them. What, thought I, are these men that I thought almost perfection itself, deceivers. and is all my fancied happiness but a dream? 'Twas even so; but my next thought was, which is the best way for me to act at this time? If I say no, they may do as they think proper; and to say yes, I never would. So I considered it best to ask for time to think and pray about it. I therefore said, "If it was lawful and right perhaps I might; but you know, sir, it is not." "Well, but," said he, "brother Joseph has had a revelation from God that it is lawful and right for a man to have two wives; for as it was in the days of Abraham, so it shall be in these last days and whoever is the first that is willing to take up the cross will receive the greatest blessings; and if you will accept of me I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom; and if you will have me in this world, I will have you in that which is to come, and brother Joseph will marry us here to-day, and you can go home this evening, and your parents will not know any thing about it." Just a couple of months after that, Joseph's proposition of plural marriage to 19 year old Nancy Rigdon cause a huge public scandal. Two church members who were close to the Rigdon family wrote letters to newspapers relating that incident in which they quoted similar verbiage from Joseph as Martha Brotherton's letter cited above. On May 4, 1844, former Nauvoo Stake presidency counselor Austin Cowles filed a legal affidavit in which he stated: " In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revealtion in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; lst the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of sheding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah. This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counsellor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo, inasmuch as I dared not teach or administer such laws." This was filed eight weeks before Joseph's and Hyrum Smith's deaths. So the contention that Brigham Young fabricated the "revelation on celestial marriage" after Joseph Smith's death is simply false.
I wonder if you're going to do an episode on how God commanded that all the first born of Egypt be killed. Or how about an episode on how God wiped out the world with a flood or an episode on how God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah or an episode on why God commanded the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites. You find it so shocking that God would command polygamy for a season but you are all good with God murdering his own children. LOL What a joke.
Great job guys. You made it fun and interesting and noteworthy. Thank you. 🙏 It’s heart warming to see people with nice personalities all connecting and conversing ❤
As someone pointed out, that whole angel story is absolutely ridiculous and it goes entirely against the concept of free agency.
Its because it never happened. Joseph Smith never started polygamy Brigham Young did. see youtube "Mormon Rescue" and other views on this, its getting bigger and bigger. The LDS church is trying to cover it up cuz it makes them look really bad
If Joseph Smith could make people believe his story of a visit from God and Jesus; his story about the angel Moroni and the golden plates; and his stories about John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John restoring the priesthood to him----then convincing women that an angel with a drawn sword and commanded him to practice polygamy was small potatoes. As Abraham Lincoln said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time."
@@99blackbirdsYou can't be that stupid to believe that garbage...or maybe you are.
Great analysis from all of your panel on this absurd effort to portray evil as good. I especially appreciated Aimee's female perspective. Even if there were clear scriptures to support plural wives, which there aren't, it is not an appropriate topic for primary. If parents want to teach their young children to embrace this lifestyle, they are free to do so. But no one should be allowed to teach these concepts to the children of others, especially without parental consent.
Apparently, church curriculum writers have decided that they need to try to "inoculate" young children by giving them a "primer" on polygamy, so they won't be blindsided with it in their teen or young adult years. But the church's problem is that they apparently don't realize that with modern sensibilities and social mores, the vast majority of church members will not accept those apologetic efforts. The current upsurge of these "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" is the product of modern Mormons completely rejecting the legitimacy of polygamy. That's why they're trying to blame the whole thing on Brigham Young--- so they can maintain an image in their minds that Joseph Smith was pure and holy.
Master Peace is amazing! Glad to see you here, friend!
Thanks! I appreciate your support!
Isn’t one marriage hard enough? I mean difficult of course 😂!
Glad that I found you guys I have been looking for a ex mo podcast that is a little more conservative.
This also inoculates the parent that read these to their children.
LOL. As if parents don't have Google.
Reposted on Latter-daily DEPOT, a repository for podcasters! 688 views in 17 hours, timestamp
Make Primary Great Again!
Deuteronomy 17:17 ESV
And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away.
My personal opinion is God never commanded polygamy biblically. He allowed it. There's a difference. I agree with Kai that if you look at what happened to the men that praticed it, it didnt turn out very well for them. Seems to me that those examples are in the Bible for a reason.
I was a member of the church for 54 years (born into it) up until this year when I left after discovering things I never knew about the church that they hid from members or lied about.
" if you look at what happened to the men that practiced it, it didnt turn out very well for them."
Indeed, including such men as Joseph and Hyrum Smith:
"On Thursday evening we gave the history of Nauvoo, and the events that led to the death of the Smiths, which, of course, we traced to the introduction of the spiritual wife system; for all that know any thing about it, that it was the introduction of that system which led to the death of the Smiths, and that if that system had not been introduced, they might have been living men to-day."---Sidney Rigdon, March 15, 1845.
"They introduced a base system of polygamy, worse by far than that of the heathen; this system of corruption brought a train of evils with it, which terminated in their entire ruin. After this system was introduced, being in opposition [to] the laws of the land, they, had to put truth at defiance to conceal it, and in order to do it, perjury was often practiced. This system was introduced by the Smiths some time before their death, and was the thing which put them into the power of their enemies, and was the immediate cause of their death."---Sidney Rigdon, June, 1846.
Arg, that’s the name I couldn’t think of, Flora Ann Woodworth! I have thousands of Mormon history trivia items stored in my brain, and yet _every single time_ I have to look up this one girl’s name! It’s really weird how i can memorize so much but never her name.
Flora was the 16 year old girl to whom Joseph gave a gold watch.
"In the midst of these encounters, Emma, became aware of the relationship when she recognized a gold watch that Joseph had given to Flora as a gift. On August 22nd William Clayton recorded: “President Joseph told me that he had difficulty with E[mma] yesterday. She rode up to Woodworths with him and called while he came to the Temple. When he returned she was demanding the gold watch of F[lora]. He reproved her for her evil treatment. On their return home she abused him much and also when he got home. He had to use harsh measures to put a stop to her abuse but finally succeeded.”
Now I want to see how people who were raised under the polygamy system would look at this. Would they laugh as how ridiculous the story is being told as well? Would they recognize how much the church is leaving out and how much they are softening it?
The So Called Church has really painted itself into a corner. They need to desperately disavow many of its teachings. But by doing so they also demonstrate that Rusty and their “prophets” can NOT be trusted to speak for God. Every unique Mormon theology has issues.
"One man and more than one woman" is such a half truth because Joseph married women who were already married to another man.
That was Brigham who did that, not Joseph.
@unfeigned4997 Joseph did it too. He married about 14 women who were married to other men. You can google it.
he did not. no real proof other than what was written decades after his death.
Wrong. @@unfeigned4997
@@unfeigned4997 Please. Don't fool yourself. Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy. Smith plural married at least 11 women who were currently married to other men. Among them were the wives of apostles and other high-ranking church leaders. The most notable example being Nancy Marinda Hyde, the wife of apostle Orson Hyde. Smith plural married her while Orson was on his mission to rededicate the land of Israel for the return of the Jews. Marinda faithfully accepted plural marriage, and she acted as a "groomer" to prepare other women to be introducted into plural marriage by Joseph.
Another one was Zina Huntington Jacobs, the wife of Henry Jacobs. Later, Zina became the general president of the Relief Society after Eliza R. Snow's death. Also, I assume you've heard the story that Joseph Smith told apostle Heber C. Kimball to give him his wife Vilate. Heber asked Smith to take his 14 year old daughter Helen instead, which Smith did. Smith also proposed plural marriage to apostle Orson Pratt's wife Sarah, but she rejected him.
You can do a simple google search and learn details of Smith's 11 polyandrous wives. One such site with a complete list is "Remembering the Wives of Joseph Smith."
We are all related. I am a convert and I discovered that I have pioneer Mormon ancestors Maria Heaps and Sam Oldham who had about 8 or so children who practiced polygamy. When I see the last names of people who were or are church members I see the names of my ancestors: Taylor, Butler, Worsley, Evans, Dixon, Hansen, Kimball, Wilcox……. Interesting
My husband shares ancestry with Joseph Smith and tells people. I tell him that’s EMBARRASSING 😅 😂. I share ancestry with Emma Hale Smith and that makes for some great arguments that I always win! 😂
New to the channel and really enjoyed this show. Thought you should know!
Early leaders will make claims about the evils of monogamy.
Church leaders still did that right up until the federal government forced them to abandon polygamy in the 1890s.
Can you share the link on the lds website where this is the new curriculum
On this one you need LOTS of women! As the gender who was affected the most in this horrible practice their voices need to be heard
@@Cocoon68 yes…I put out many invitations…maybe I’ll get more next time
@ too bad they declined! They could have added so much to this!
But I’m glad to see you are taking this on regardless! It needs to be out there as much as possible
I’m sorry but I fail to see the value in assigning the YW clean up duty over decorating as a victory for women.
The way I see it is that making either assignment open for the YM or the YW keeps the young women from being pigeonholed into that traditional role. YW can clean up too. There are super creative YM who might like those opportunities to bake or decorate.
Clean up is way easier.
Wow the first example you put up avoided the most used... David and Solomon...
Right, it’s just from the church essay
No-one defending Joseph? You should do another one of these, Nathan from the other perspective! I would come on.
This is geared towards the churches stance, which is that he did it. We could have a debate about whether Joseph did it but that’s separate topic all together
That’s the crux of the matter. Either the Church is guilty of teaching a doctored (twisted, actually) history of their founder OR they are guilty of praising a man who married other men’s wives (and other men’s children really) as someone worthy to be a mouthpiece for God. They can’t possibly win.
That’s the crux of the matter. Either the Church is guilty of teaching a doctored (twisted, actually) history of their founder OR they are guilty of praising a man who married other men’s wives (and other men’s children really) as someone worthy to be a mouthpiece for God. They can’t possibly win.
@@Thebishopsinterview if you do a debate, you really need to have Jeremy Hoop of the Still Mormon podcast on that panel. He knows this topic better than anyone.
Read the William law journals and the local newspaper contemporary to d&c 132. Verbatim language. 132 authored by JS.
So, did Joseph disobey God with the doctrine of plural marriage by not having any known progeny with his plural wives? It seems that is the purpose the church claims for practicing polygamy.
The church is desperate in trying to point to God commanding biblical polygamy when in reality, it is a false assumption. God never commanded the practice even though it happened as sin. If God wanted polygamy as the norm in marriaage, He would have created Adam and several Eves! I think this only proves that Joseph was a false prophet with a false revelation.
Every time there was point where they needed to repopulate the world, men only had one wife. Adam, one wife. Noah and his sons? One wife.
Con man Joseph Smith simply couldn't keep his "Little Factory" in his pants. Total scumbag.
I have a PIMO friend who says they already have a polygamy lesson in November
For youth or adults?
Polygamy lessons for kids? Ugh! This disgusts me too, but for reasons beyond the ones discussed. Please consider the latest research and evidence that has come forward, showing that it is very likely that that it was Brigham Young who started polygamy, not Joseph Smith. There’s massive amounts of source evidence coming forward. It’s a huge scandal. The expert on the subject is Jeremy Hoop of the “Still Mormon” podcast. He’s exposing the role that Brigham Young played. He got ahold of Agusta Cobb’s letters to her husband, Brigham Young and it’s looking pretty ugly. No one has ever exposed this stuff until now. Nathan, you should interview him.
I agree with you guys that D&C 132 is disgusting and truly awful towards Emma. Brigham most likely wrote it, not JS. The Lord would never speak about Emma that way, but Brigham would. It’s full of errors about Moses, Isaac, King Solomon and David and contradicts the Bible and Jacob 2&3, which Joseph translated. He would not have made those errors. Literally, D&C 132 says the opposite of Jacob 2&3, regarding King Solomon and David and the practice of polygamy. Joseph knew the Bible inside and out and would not have made those obvious errors. 50 years after JS’ murder, BY replaced JS’ Law on Marriage (original D&C 101) with 132. Hmm…pretty fishy!
Please check out the latest research to stay abreast on the polygamy debates. But I agree that the church needs to repent of this horrid “doctrine” and move forward.
I love Jeremy’s “Still Mormon” podcast! He’s incredible! The stuff he’s exposing is truly shocking-especially the Agusta Cobbs stuff that you mentioned. He’s also done the most extensive and comprehensive research on Fanny Alger and proved that Joseph did NOT sleep with her and never married her. He has totally stumped the church’s historians. Kind of fun to watch it play out.
@@unfeigned4997I agree with both of you. “Still Mormon” is fascinating!
I don’t believe Joseph started polygamy either. How could he practice polygamy and have all those supposed fights with his wife about it when he said early on that he’d lose the gift of translating if they argued? He totally adored Emma. The Lord wouldn’t have picked a completely dysfunctional couple to restore His church, nor a man who supposedly treats his daughters the way everyone says he treated them, which is a lie. It was definitely Brigham who started the whole scandal. Totally agree!
@@unfeigned4997what is Jeremy Hoop saying about Agusta Cobbs and who was she?
You just have to watch his episodes on it. Agusta was Brigham’s second plural wife. Her letters to Brigham have been kept at the Wisconsin Historical Society and they gave them to Jeremy! No one has ever publicly shared these letters before, not even the historians and he has them! They reveal some pretty upsetting things about Brigham’s and her marriage and what was going on with polygamy. Turns out that Joseph Smith never taught the doctrine of polygamy. Brigham totally blamed it all on Joseph. Truth is coming out! Grab your popcorn folks.
I'm gonna try to set you straight. There is no question that Joseph Smith was the man who introduced polygamy into Mormonism, and that he plural married more than 30 women. About 130 people in Nauvoo had heard about polygamy, and every single one of them said that they learned it directly from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. There is a mountain of documentation from letters, journals, court testimony, newspapers, and legal affidavits to support that fact. Every legitimate historian who has published on this subject beginning with Fawn Brodie in 1946 concurs with that.
These modern day "Joseph Smith polygamy deniers" such as Jeremy Hoop and Michelle Stone are not legitimate historians. Rather, they are hobbyists and conspiracy theorists. They want to believe that Smith had nothing to do with polygamy because they know that if they concede that he did, that it means that Smith was a liar, an adulterer, and a hypocrite. So Jeremy and his fellow travelers have gone into intellectual denial of the facts. As an example, a few weeks ago, Jeremy did an episode in which he quoted Emily Partridge's memoirs wherein she lamented how sad her life as a plural wife of Brigham Young had been. But Jeremy neglected to mention that Emily also made it perfectly clear in other writings that she had first been a plural wife of Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. In fact, the reason Emily and many other Nauvoo women went to Utah with the Brighamites was because they had been inducted into plural marriage by Joseph before his death. I mentioned these facts to Jeremy Hoop, and he never responded to me. So that shows that Jeremy is in intellectual denial of facts which counter his chosen views.
As for your comment that Brigham wrote D&C 132, that is a completely false theory. Joseph Smith began espousing his principles of "celestial marriage", and proposing it to women, in the spring of 1842. Numerous eyewitness participants quoted verbiage from the "revelation on celestial marriage" beginning during that period. One such example is from a 17 year old girl named Martha Brotherton, which was published on July 13, 1842:
"brother Joseph has had a revelation from God that it is lawful and right for a man to have two wives; for as it was in the days of Abraham, so it shall be in these last days and whoever is the first that is willing to take up the cross will receive the greatest blessings; and if you will accept of me I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom."
Joseph Smith's secret, illicit "spiritual wifery" practice was the primary reason for the opposition he drew for the last ten months of his life. In fact, polygamy was the prime cause of his and Hyrum's deaths. So these people who theorize that Brigham Young wrote the revelation sometime after Joseph's death are completely wrong.
Hey Now
Congratulations to each of you for leaving Mormonism. ❤ I hope you landed softly and, like Kai, I hope you find the real Jesus (vs fictional Mormon Jesus) if you haven’t already
Thanks for your comment. I will say, it was a brutal path to trust religion after leaving the Mormon Church. I have a ton of compassion for anyone who has left and doesn’t really know where to go next.
D&C 132 did not come from God or Joseph Smith.
It definitely did not come from any God, but it most definitely came from Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith began espousing the principles of "celestial marriage" in the spring of 1842. Numerous people from then until Joseph's death two years later quoted verbiage from the "revelation on celestial marriage" when relating what Joseph had taught them. The first such instance I'm aware of is in a letter from a 17 year old girl named Martha Brotherton, which was published on July 13, 1842:
" Joseph came in and spoke to one of the clerks, and then went up stairs followed by Young. Immediately after Kimball came in. "Now, Martha," said he, "the Prophet has come; come up stairs." I went, and we found Young and the Prophet alone. I was introduced to the Prophet by Young. Joseph offered me his seat, and, to my astonishment, the moment I was seated Joseph and Kimball walked out of the room, and left me with Young, who arose, locked the door, closed the window, and drew the curtain. He then came and sat before me and said, "This is our private room, Martha." "Indeed, sir," said I, "I must be highly honored to be permitted to enter it." He smiled, and then proceeded -- "Sister Martha, I want to ask you a few questions; will you answer them?" "Yes, sir," said I. "And will you promise not to mention them to any one?" "If it is your desire, sir," said I, "I will not." "And you will not think any the worse of me for it, will you, Martha?" said he. "No sir," I replied. "Well," said he, "what are your feelings towards me?" -- I replied, "My feelings are just the same towards you that they ever were, sir.." "But, to come to the point more closely," said he, "have not you an affection for me, that, were it lawful and right, you could accept of me for your husband and companion?" My feelings at that moment were indescribable. God only knows them. What, thought I, are these men that I thought almost perfection itself, deceivers. and is all my fancied happiness but a dream? 'Twas even so; but my next thought was, which is the best way for me to act at this time? If I say no, they may do as they think proper; and to say yes, I never would. So I considered it best to ask for time to think and pray about it. I therefore said, "If it was lawful and right perhaps I might; but you know, sir, it is not." "Well, but," said he, "brother Joseph has had a revelation from God that it is lawful and right for a man to have two wives; for as it was in the days of Abraham, so it shall be in these last days and whoever is the first that is willing to take up the cross will receive the greatest blessings; and if you will accept of me I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom; and if you will have me in this world, I will have you in that which is to come, and brother Joseph will marry us here to-day, and you can go home this evening, and your parents will not know any thing about it."
Just a couple of months after that, Joseph's proposition of plural marriage to 19 year old Nancy Rigdon cause a huge public scandal. Two church members who were close to the Rigdon family wrote letters to newspapers relating that incident in which they quoted similar verbiage from Joseph as Martha Brotherton's letter cited above.
On May 4, 1844, former Nauvoo Stake presidency counselor Austin Cowles filed a legal affidavit in which he stated:
" In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet; that the said Hyrum Smith did essay to read the said revealtion in the said Council, that according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; lst the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of sheding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah. This revelation with other evidence, that the aforesaid heresies were taught and practiced in the Church; determined me to leave the office of first counsellor to the president of the Church at Nauvoo, inasmuch as I dared not teach or administer such laws."
This was filed eight weeks before Joseph's and Hyrum Smith's deaths. So the contention that Brigham Young fabricated the "revelation on celestial marriage" after Joseph Smith's death is simply false.
I wonder if you're going to do an episode on how God commanded that all the first born of Egypt be killed. Or how about an episode on how God wiped out the world with a flood or an episode on how God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah or an episode on why God commanded the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites. You find it so shocking that God would command polygamy for a season but you are all good with God murdering his own children. LOL What a joke.
And that's why you deconstruct all religion right along with Mormonism!
Actually no, that’s even more embarrassing and wrong…now you see my point of view…it’s all garbage
Why would anybody believe in any of that nonsense?
People are stupid and/or ignorant. Only weak minded people believe in this bullshit. @@randyjordan5521