F1's new 2024 overtaking rules explained
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ค. 2024
- Time and time again in recent years it's felt like frustrating inconsistencies have meant you the fans, us the media, them the drivers and even F1 officials don't actually know what's allowed or not in wheel-to-wheel racing.
There's little worse in F1 than when you watch a great battle with two or more cars, things get a bit sketchy, and you just have no idea if it’s going to result in a penalty.
Whether it's overtaking on the inside or outside, lunging from far back, defending too aggressively - we've seen everything from hard but fair racing being punished to lairy over the top moves getting overlooked.
Something has changed this year to try to stop that - but you might not have noticed because it doesn't seem to have been published anywhere.
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#f1 #formulaone #f12024 #therace #formula1 #grandprix #f1news #fia #f1overtake - กีฬา
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Alonsos 3 penalty points while Stroll got 2 is an absolute YOKE!
Stroll will get the boot eventually. That would be karma!
That dive he pulled on Sainz was an absolutely moronic move.
@@MrSeeman13when? When his dad sells the team ? He’s untouchable with Lawrence involved
Joke *
@@oswaldoflores9206 He's referencing an old radio message from Alonso where it sounds like he said "yoke" instead of "joke"
2028- no overtaking allowed.
The return of the Trulli Train
🤣
Seems like this is going to happen in the future.
they're just going to start doing time trials
Would literally not surprise me if they introduced overtaking zones. The ONLY places you're allowed to overtake
Alonso getting 3 penalty points for that accidental collision with Sainz from being on edge and Stroll getting only 2 after ramming a driver due to unawareness and still not admitting fault is the epitome of MaFIA.
Also where’s the penalty for FIA for not calling Safety car when Bottas was out of his car on the runoff area?
Logan getting exactly the same punishment as Stroll for the "crime" of being a foot behind a line and not seeing another car who was in his blind spot.
Agree with your point 100%, but admitting fault shouldn't really be considered in a punishment.
I don't think Lance's crash was not harsh enough, I think Alonso's penalty was way too harsh. The FIA needs to use a wider range of penalties for infractions, and be willing to penalize drivers without dishing out penalty points.
@@MrSniperfox29exactly, it was so close that Williams just didn’t have the equipment to figure out who was ahead, FIA had and they didn’t bother to even warn the team. Now Logan’s close to getting a race ban due to this stupidity.
The worst part is FIA doesn’t have a self punishing or self check system so they just do whatever they want.
@@MrSniperfox29 exactly, it was so close that Williams just didn’t have the resources to see who was ahead. FIA had it but didn’t warn the team at all. Now Logan is close to getting a race ban due to this stupidity.
@@jivewig Indeed, IMO that's the fault of the FIA, not the driver or team. If they can clearly see who is ahead, to the point where they issue a penalty for it, then they should be able to do so in a reasonable amount of time, ie before the Safety Car is in, so that the team can be notified to take corrective action and put him back in the right spot before it's too late to do so. The fact that they don't handle such situations in real time is mind-blowing to me. Do they need to hire a few more people to actually watch the race so that they can point these things out? I don't get it.
Since Charles passing, F1's rules have been so inconsistent. Need someone like him back.
Charlie Whiting*
Even Michael Masi was doing a better job than current FIA.
Bad and inconsistent ruling by different stewards at each race have been a problem in F1 for decades. Charlie was race director and didn’t make the rulings, it’s always been done by the stewards. He would advise teams and forward things to the stewards when necessary. Things are just highlighted much more by the immediate reporting on social media.
@@KillZoneHart1people were complaining a lot during ‘21 about inconsistencies and blaming Masi directly.
@@seashackf1 Unfortunately it has become increasingly apparent that the F1 paddock used Massi as a scapegoat for larger institutional problems within the FIA.
Alonso's gonna take another 3 points penalty just cuz he watched this vid
"Different officials will have different opinions" is exactly the problem and has been for a number of years. If you have a rule, it should either be so solid there can be no interpretation, or if it is open to interpretation then you should have the same officials at all races which should mean their interpretation would be more consistent.
Also, as others have said, 3 points for Alonso for an over ambitious but truly racing move, yet only 2 for Stroll for a move born from paying zero attention to the cars around him and what amounts to reckless driving, is ridiculous and illustrates where the rules, if they are being applied fairly, are themselves at fault.
Yeah. I've yet to hear a single convincing argument in favour of rotating race officials.
At a certain point (already crossed for me) the inconsistencies become more of a detriment to the racing than a singular 'problematic' official could be if they tried.
The idea that you do not have to leave space for the outside and can just run someone into the wall has completely ruined the racing for me one of the reasons i love running my own online servers is that I can set the rules being if a car is along side going into the corner (any wheel overlap) then you have to leave room no matter what side you are on you are entitled to room. The battles are much longer, more fair, and more fun to both participate in and watch because it means more wheel to wheel racing.
Yup! Crazy that sonebody ever has to yield. Imo if theres a car, dont turn into them. Simple
I’ve always thought why running someone off the road in a race is allowed. If you did that in real life in traffic you’d be charged
This is how I see it too. It's pretty simple.
Whenever there is a two-car overlap, the track gets divided into two. The lead car determines where that dividing line is. However, there must always be a car width+ of space left on the other side of the line for the second car to drive within. This space must always allow the second car to be safely and legally within track limits taking into account the track layout. For example, the space for the second car must allow for the presence of a wall, grass, gravel etc.
This sets up a system that allows the cars to push and pull each other when they are side by side. Each trying to earn the right to guide the position of the dividing line, forcing the other into compromising their driving by narrowing the options they have available.
As you say, racing like this online allows some great multi-corner battles that don't just end with one driver forcing the other off track.
People like you are killing racing. Dirty driving id what makes it exciting to watch
@@nathangravel6042 exactly, you summed it up perfectly!
As a club racer in the UK for 16 years it amuses me when there is this discussion over track limits and overtaking guidelines. This is stuff we have had to adhere to for years. In fact our regulations are MUCH more harsh. We are not allowed to put even one wheel over the white lines and must allow space for the other car if they are along side AT ALL. Professional drivers who are "the best in the world" whinge like hell and seem incapable of achieving even half of what we are required to do.
I don't understand why it is so difficult to find someone like Charlie Whiting (No disrespect to Charlie). His decisions were almost always correct and there wasn't a rulebook that needed to be referred for a slightly tough battle. Additionally, there was a lotta respect for him by the drivers. Surely there must be someone with a lotta racing experience to do that. Also, did anyone notice the amount of time the FIA took to deploy a vsc for Bottas' stranded car ? That was an absolute joke !! It felt so dangerous and nothing was done for almost an entire lap.
Whiting had the discipline and respect required for someone in such an important position in any sport which is tragically very hard to find. Looking back at archived footage he seemed genuinely upset when he made a mistake and actually took time to go to the media and explain decisions. He also had the experience and bravery to uphold precedent on the rules which controlled the grid a lot more. Although it was entertaining, he never would have allow Merc and RB lower the sporting standards of F1 so much in 21'. That is exactly why we will never see anyone like him anywhere near a powerful position in F1. Integrity and precedent, whilst sporting, aren't very flashy and good politically.
Yes, I liken it to the NFL's constant struggle with defining what a catch is. The reality is, you need to use your eyeballs sometimes to look at the play that actually happened and figure it out for yourself. Sometimes someone needs to make a decision, not based on ridiculously overwritten rules that are impossible to apply in real time, and just say "Is this a catch or is it not?" The same goes with passing in F1. Getting super specific with the written rules is not the way to fix this. If anything, it just makes things worse.
Whiting wasn’t a steward, he was the race director. He didn’t make these type of ruling. He advised the teams when asked and would forward things to the stewards when necessary. There were still different stewards at each race who made bad and inconsistent decisions. It’s always been a problem it’s just more evident now with social media highlighting it much more.
There are lots of Charlie Whitings, a lot of people in these comments are Charlie Whitings haha, but he also had a lot of power and could overrule the none Charlie whitings below him lol. Where as now the stewarding is more of a democratic board, and after all, the camel is a horse designed by committee.
Edit: Although someone pointed out he wasn't actually a steward, but none the less the point stands. He still had power over the drivers and called them out when they were over the top.
Firing Masi was a mistake. He potentially could've grown into being an experienced figure with authority.
Racing for lawyers. It's like watching CourtTV.
people when decisions are inconsistent: FIA needs to get their shit together!
people when more clearer rules are introduced: Let them race!
@@askeladden450I say just take more rules out
I mean all race series have this kind of stuff you just don’t usually hear about it that much. Look at the pit stop rules in some GT or multi class series, that shit alone is deeply confusing lol.
Agree
"apex" depends on the line you take in the turn. One car's apex may not be the same apex for the other car
Fun fact: in the first race of Formula One in 1950 at Silverstone, cars were required to obey the right hand rule, and that they could only overtake on the left hand side of the track.
I prefer Alonso "all the time you must leave a space" approach.
Agreed.
So do I. These tracks aren't wide enough to allow giant F1 cars to defend hard without it just stopping all overtaking
I agree. Keep it simple but clear.
Rulemakers gonna rulemake…. Unfortunately
shall we ignore that senna said that to excuse him from deliberatly cannonballing prost at 200mph so he instantly won the championship?
In the meantime Lance Stroll plays bumper cars ... 😂😂😂
These sorts of guidelines CAN work. Look at how neatly we ended the brief era of 'driver in second place hassling the lead driver during a safety car restart'
These silly rules have come in because of Max, he was either moving in the braking zone or bombing it down the track to get his car alongside another car or leaving no room whatsoever, there was no real confusion before Max. Now all drivers (behind Max) are feeling the confusion since Masi's inconsistencies and inability to judge a race.
You're right, the grid had to either learn to race against max, or whine that he was too good and start getting erroneous rules put into place so it was harder for him to beat them.
It's too bad that when the best overall driver on the grid has to be held back because "the best in the world" aren't capable of passing anyone that has equal or slightly faster machinery. These F1 rules will get someone killed soon, especially if they keep letting pay drivers behind the wheel who've proven they can't even handle a honda accord.
F1 should ditch all those convoluted rules and just appoint one guy who makes a decision. It would at least be more consistent that what we have now.
Ah yes, that's your best idea!
They could appoint one person.
Maybe he should be called ....
Michael Massi.
You're a genius!
@procatprocat9647 I was thinking someone more like Charlie Whiting
Yeah, no it wouldn't.
It should be someone who us voted in by all people involved in f1. Time and time again f1 proves to the fans the people involved can not be trusted but if you have a vote well never mind that would be corrupted by f1 also
We did have that. And it resulted is a blockbuster , albeit unfair 2021 championship decider
I like that idea at the end. Just get rid of the whole thing. If it's clear by the eye test that a move was malicious or extremely optimistic/dangerous then a harsh penalty should be given (stop go penalty or dsq... Race ban... Etc). But otherwise don't try to assign fault to every time sometimes front wing gets clipped. You can punish the 2012 Spa incidents without having to nit pick every single overtake
Man... there is too much rules concerning overtakes... as long as space is given and drivers don't display dangerous or idiotic moves, stewards should stay out of wheel to wheel racing. Everything else is a risk the driver takes and need to suffer the consequences... all race incidents. For example, how Alonso got penalized in Australia is still beyond me, Russell was sleeping. Also, if a driver isn't able to shut the door before the corner, they should always expect a driver will try to overtake, away with that BS rule need to be fully alongside with front axles... overtaker having the front axle alongside rear axle should be enough to leave space.
Agreed. If they keep it between the white lines and any incidental contact doesn't cause parts to go flying off then let them defend, let them attack, let them race. Both Alonso penalties were absolutely crazy. Drivers have slowed to control the pace of the cars behind forever in F1, even in this season. Wheel to wheel contact has happened 1,000s of times without any need to call it "causing a collision".
+1, wish F1 would see it the same
Alonso getting penalized back to back is criminal and shameful. It's almost like the FIA is trying to push him away.
Lol what do you want? For him to get away with it back to back? 😂
@@MegaIronica He's been racing that way for decades, but with these new rule changes now he's the problem and there is zero room for leeway. It's just disproportionate is all.
@@thatautomotiveblog wasn't he the guy who said "you always have to leave the space"? How about he follows his own rules lol
@@MegaIronica he does follow his own rules, if you actually knew the quote you'd know its about leaving space on a STRAIGHT to overtake
@gherbo1609 lool, so leave a space only when it is in his favor? It is hilarious to see fans only defend their favorite driver 🤣
Since AD21 when the FIA decided the championship instead of leaving it to the drivers , so many people are put off by how the FiA conduct themselves.
You're showing examples of what you're describing from recent races, it's interesting how many of them feature Verstappen. Personally I would consider some of his manouvers over the past few years as the type that don't belong in f1. I know you acknowledged that what he does is often within the rules as they have been set out but his late lunges to the inside, carrying way too much speed into the corner just to run the other driver out of room on the exit and/or running off the track himself.
For me the issue with the rule about being alongside is that cars are never truly alongside. One car will almost always be ahead. This means that you can't have racing as one car will always have to yield
It's not a rule it's a guideline
There is lack of freedom in racing so many stringent rules make it bland.
Hence these new rules from the FIA !
Go watch Nascar then. This is open wheel racing with brittle machines and Death on the line
@@Sevastous Indycar is the comparable series - they are all spec as well. It's much cheaper, too.
@@Arsenic71Super Formula is more comparable. Faster cars on a twisting circuit than Indy, and their chassis isn't nearly ten years old.
@@n8pls543 The IR-18 is only 6 years old lol. Regulations in F1 last around that long. just a bit shorter.
Subjective rules with constantly changing stewards. What a brilliant concept, confuse the drivers and the fans.
This seems like the F1 equivalent to the problem that the NFL constantly struggles with: what constitutes a catch? The more you try to legislate it into the rules, the more convoluted the rules get and the more arguments it seems to raise. Inevitably there will be instances that don't meet the specific wording of the rules but still pass the "eyeball test" because the rules can never be specific enough. In fact, by getting overly specific, it often makes proper application of the rules too difficult to handle in a timely manner, which only pisses viewers off even more.
The point here is that F1 needs to dumb it down and make it simpler for both drivers and viewers to understand. There needs to be safety and fairness in F1, but just like football, you will never be able to make it absolutely safe and absolutely fair. Chasing that is an exercise in futility. This is a classic example of "don't let perfect become the enemy of good." If you want the drivers to race, then at some point you need to just let them race.
I really enjoy the NFLs attempts to be more and more specific about what is and is not a catch, and the replays frame by frame adjuding whether or not the conditions were met in the correct sequence, but I do appreciate that you can't do that in a sport where they don't blow the whistle and stop play every time something happens.
Please ask the drivers if they clearly understand the guidelines at the ext press conference 🙏🏼🏁
F1 is an absolute disgrace these days.... nothing compares to the late 90s to mid 2000's. Proper racing and rules were respected..... and not changed every 5 seconds.
I think it should be
"Stay on track and don't force anyone off"
Use blind spot monitoring so drivers can't blame it on bad visibility
Wait, there's overtaking in F1?
You got your comment stolen by a porn bot and it has more likes lol
I just reported them bro. Justice has been served.
@@obione51499 lmao it worked, I can't find it anymore. Do you actually work in freaking google?!
Theres some great points, well needed is clarification of the rules and clear answers as to why penalties are applied and for what exactly. the last rule of the car on the inside into the 2nd corner opens up even more room for people abusing the rules and has to be the silliest of all the rules written thus far. it goes against can't force a driver off track or drive into another car. the car on the inside is entitled to room as is the car on the outside, we can't contradict one rule for another.
Indycar: "do whatever you want, if it gets too extrem we will lokk at it"
F1: "He appeared in my mirror and scared me, I had to cut the corner!"
It helps that Indycars are built like tanks compared to any other open-wheel circuit car, with design considerations made for side-to-side contact. On the other side of things, F1 cars are just so goddamn _huge_ these days and far less resilient, meaning places where Indycars could risk an overtake just aren't an option for them.
That doesn't necessarily make the racing better in Indycar. Look at the Laguna Seca race of last year, total chaos
Yeah literally, or he appeared in front of me I got scared and crashed 🤦♂️
@@Clips_Culture_”he’s intimidating me!”
Barber was a bloodbath this weekend and it was awesome
"too trigger happy to dish out penalties..." perhaps, unless it is against certain drivers... The level of consistency there is so badly lacking it makes the whole sport a joke.
And then these guidlines are clearly not being applied - for instance when Russel screws up and puts his car in the wall without even getting remotely close to Alonso's car, but because Alonso took a different line into the corner, while still being in complete control though all of it somehow Alonso gets the blame for Russel getting it badly wrong...
I feel like "Letting them race" should realistically just say "Dont hit the other guy, dont push them off the track inside or outside, and dont intentionally risk a crash"
"We made the cars better for overtaking. Sadly, there is no space for that in the rules."
I race in downhill skateboarding, the parameters are fundamentally the same (just a lot slower 80kph-100kph). You can never have perfect guidelines for overtaking, theres always going to be contentions for both riders/drivers, only difference is if theres a crash we get up and say sorry to each other lol
Laps 15-17 of Chinas Sprint were some of the best on track racing ive seen in this era. The fact that a penalty went out for that when I'm pretty sure no drivers complained or were even had their race adversely affected (other than the offendant himself) just makes the whole situation disappointing and dsmages the future of our sport.😢
All these shenanigans just to penalize alonso for racing and letting others off the hook
Exactly!
That's a 10 seconds penalty for Ocon.
Gasly to receive a two race ban for appearing on track.
Why is this now a problem after 100yrs of Grands Prix?!
If a car is say 50% or maybe a little more along side then space should be given. You should not be able to run someone off the track just because you are on the inside.
I can't understand your point of view regarding Alonso's penalty. I think it was deserved if you consider the rules you explained in your video.
Alonso was not ahead at the apex and did not leave enough space on the outside at the end of the corner.
He just came in to hot in this case.
It's simple. Teams should send a form requesting an overtake. 2 business days should pass. The teams should discuss if the overtake should happen. It should then go to court then we can decide if the overtake is legal.
We need a racing category outside of the influence of FIA, no more corrupt money and more fair racing.
That's literally illegal.
The size of the cars now is probably one reason why we seem to be getting constant controversy. There is less space to go side by side and they are less nimble, like barges by comparison to F1 in 1960s and slower to change trajectory mid corner.
100% this. I don't want to go back to the 60s or 70s, but the growth of the cars in the last 2 or 3 decades has really stretched things. shrink the cars by 1% a year for a while and we might actually start to see some racing happen again, though I think they need to be about 7 or 8% smaller for that to be happening up and down the grid rather than just in the midfield/rear of the grid
@@ratticus No you cant go backwards and F1 is as much about advancing technology as anything. The sheer cornering speed of the modern car is spectacular but what I miss is being able to see the drivers, the suspension moving and the cars sliding and moving around in the corners. I could relate to it a bit more.
Any overtake by Fernando is illegal it seems, fair racing by alonso without crashing into anyone and just defending very well is actually illegal. Yes lance can ram into other drivers and cause chaos because that is legal. MaFIA is a joke of an organization. Pinnacle of motorsport my arse.
for a driver to be left room on the inside they need to have their front axle alongside the other cars mirror. I think that is a mistake and should be moved further back
Should be as simple as "car must be at least ahead of half of the other car and you must leave anough space for 2 wheels to stay on the track (white lines set the limit) and you must follow the usual race line considering the position you are in"
That would solve the problem at Interlagos for example. The driver that got the pass in first part won't be able to squeeze the other guy to the inside in the next part, he has to open a bit. And I believe it'd work in all tracks and corners without more complex decisions.
FIA Sporting Code does not mention such terms as "inside" or "outside", or "racing line" for that matter, last I checked. "Overtaking can be done on the left or on the right. Crowding another car beyond the edge of the track will be reported to the stewards." That's it. All the "but HE OWNED thE LiNe!!!" is BS.
Well, we saw yesterday during the Miami sprint that a lunge from far away and bowling 3 cars out of the way, 2 of which end up retiring, is ok if you're a 7 time world champion
It's almost as if the officials want to give the stewards more and more work to do and create more and more controversy. What's wrong with the simple rule "always give the other car space on track"?
i think for the sainz/alonso situation was the key part of not leaving enough space for sainz on the outside of the corner, as well as causing the collision.
But Sainz actually went off track and made contact with LeClerc and received NO penalty. The inconsistency is insane.
Alonso just barged him off track, that was shambolic driving
I have a possible solution - A. If a driver is pushed out of a turn by another driver out of the circuit, the pushed driver will not be penalized and continue to this move - this way you'll pull the air out of the maneuver to push a driver off the road.
B. This kind of allowance will be legal only when pushed by another driver
I always feel like a good rule of thumb is if the overtaking cars front tires are in front of the rear tires of the leading car in the braking zone then space should be given.
I don’t understand why it’s ok to just force other drivers off the road.
George piastri japan incident no investigation, alonso sainz incident even alonso dnf 10s penalty and 3 pp, what a joke fia!
glad you put lewis' deliberate pushing lando off unpunished in here
As if scottie believe that. He thought was fair.
But only when the track dog is eating a bone from the right side or only if the track cat is sleeping and facing the west while any cows within 4 miles of the apex of the second corner before the passing corner are facing (more than 50%) each other.
I wonder how many penalties Arnoux and Villeneuve racked up in their last lap battle in Magni Cour according to these "guidelines" seems like they don't want overtakes and defending, just passing
The track was Dijon.
Magny Cours was home to the French GP in other era
Only at the first point and I already hate it. If your car is even halfway alongside your opponent you should absolutely be entitled to space, claiming anything else is completely insane!
As well add in to sub section - if stroll causes the crash or is involved in someway shape or form to be given a 10 place grid penalty 😂
What would be the problem with saying you must leave a car's width if there is another car there at all? I only started following f1 about 10 years ago but the idea of running someone off the road on exit or "shutting the door" (i.e. cutting them off) seems... idk, bad? Unless they want to introduce intentional failure modes to the hardware, it's playing by basketball rules where it's a contact sport pretending to be non contact.
Without being dramatic of like pAsSiNg WoUlD tAkE nO sKiLl, what would actually happen? In my mind they could even have aid lines on turns at one car's width on the outside and inside edge of the track.
Or better yet, implement joker laps to codify undercuts and overcuts. Maybe it's better to do the jokers early and hope for a safety car. Maybe wait for soft tires and lower fuel. Maybe wait for *hard* tires and lower fuel.
"If you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver"
Bad example though. Crashing your car to ensure you win a championship and putting your fate into the hands of god while you take big risks is not what sportsmanship is aboutnn
Senna later admitted that he was wrong and that he shouldnt have said that
@@anonymousfuck9320 inknownbut it's an over used quote. I understand what he meant but he has a habit of taking things too far and crying when he was wronged. Great driver but too fragile and temperamental mixed with a feeling that gid would always look after him no matter what meant he took risks that he shouldn't have and I feel that added to his untimely demise.
Most overused quote in motorsports, ever. Often times as justification for diving into a gap that never existed in the first place.
@@chris9650Prost shouldn’t have done it first then…
1. If a driver gets into a dangerous situation, it’s on them.
2. Don’t get a wheel in between someone else’s wheels if you can’t get out.
3. Don’t force someone into situation #2.
4. Don’t intentionally make contact.
I just made these up but I think they make the most sense.
"Tipped most if not all..." "Caused a collision" They deemed he didn't meet all the guidelines and was responsible for causing a collision while trying to make an overtake.
What's grey about this? It seems to me they're saying if you steam it down the inside, misjudge, have a tank-slapper, lock-up, whatever... And cause a collision it's a penalty.
They deemed he caused the collision. So it wasn't a 50/50 racing incident. Overtaking car must make pass without causing collision.
If people don't like these guidelines that's fine but I don't see how this is such a weird case...?
It’s amazing how the “pinnacle of motorsports” can’t even figure out how to enforce rules fairly and consistently. You look at IMSA and they do a great job of officiating. IndyCar doesn’t do as good, but is still better.
While there's nothing officially stated, it seems like the WEC is also using the draft rules. There have been a couple of incidents in the first two races of the season where a collision would have previously had a different outcome when the pentalitise are dished out. For example, previously a prototype would be given full responbsibility for overtaking a GT car safely because of how much more downforce, speed and mechanical grip they have. The only times a GT car would prevously be penalised if they collided with a prototype is if the GT car did something like being unpredictable, or actively fighting the prototype. This year however we have seen GT being held responsible when previously it was incumbent on the prototype driver to overtake safely.
In the picture you show alonso has 2 wheels on the line and the Ferrari is off track. So he forced another car off the track.
Honestly. These officials are beyond a joke. They punish misdemeanors with 10 second penalties and licence pts. But punish race ruining collisions with 5 seconds after the race.
Idiots.
Would this work? : G-force and Wheel direction are tracked. So let's say in a right turn, collision happens between 2 cars -> Check the wheel directions, and if car 1 is going left when car 2 G-Force is left, blame the guy who could not hold his line (Car 1)?
Some sort of Tri-parameters needing to be tracked : Turn Direction / G-Forces / Wheel Direction. Put the blame on the guy not holding his line, negate all penalties if both are not hodling it, funnel the biggest penalty to the first instigator in case of +2 cars involved.
If both drivers follow these 3 parameters and collision still occurs, maybe then check the apex distance and the amount of G-force to blame the aggressive failed attempt.
Can you look at the possibility that Red-Bull's advantage may actually be in there MGU-H system? While the Kinetic system is heavily regulated, I believe the thermal capture and delivery is somewhere where the teams could find gains. Don't get me wrong, I think Red-Bull has a great aero package, but I don't think it explains the gap they have.
Why can’t it be a rule that if there’s another car alongside there must be space for them to stay on the track without a collision. That way the driver on the outside can hold their ground on the edge of the track and fight back
This might be oversimplifying a bit but how about just 'if the other driver has any part of their car alongside yours, you have to leave at least enough space for them to keep two wheels on the track'. There's no ambiguity there.
Why don't they just paint a green line on the track in every corner, spaced exactly one axle's width from the white track limit line? If the inside car crosses that line during an overtake and either causes contact, or forces the inside car to dip at least one tyre wholly or partially over the track limit line in order to avoid contact, the inside car has to give the place back immediately.
If you're in front all 4 wheels need to be inside the track. The passing car must not touch the passing car, with 2 wheels of the track allowed.
The penalty system is so confusing. We should have penalty laps. FIA sets a control lap time, and each penalty laps must be slower than the set time. This way we see the overtakes in the track and not the timing board after the race.
This is a major issue in a lot of sports these days, particularly ones with quick decision making. Rules need to be simple enough that they can be baked into instinct. A driver needs to be able to make a decision so fast while doing the incredibly difficult task of driving an F1 car, that they don't have the luxury of thinking about their maneuvers. If a driver can't make an acceptable decision within the timeframe in which the option is presented to them, then the rules are too complex.
F1 still has so much to learn from Supercars. The aussies have it figured out IMHO - track limits, overtakes, technical - you name it. Of course it's much easier in tintop racing where every brush doesn't end in tears.
Maybe we just hear more radio messages these days but it strikes me that all drivers have incidents where they're on the giving and receiving end of a contentious decision when it comes to overtakes. The vast majority of them are happy to go for a questionable move but as soon as someone does it to them they're on the radio in seconds complaining about how unsafe it is and that the other driver deserves a penalty.
Its quite obvious what theyre doing: make the rules as subjective as possible so they can control what happens.
100000% they will never voluntarily give up their power by making the rules not subjective and more than just "guidelines". It would just be willingly giving up their own power to control the race outcome
Exactly. In any other time, the way max drove in 2021 to push Lewis off the road would’ve been dealt with, for example.
At 4:20 you state point 3, which Alonso clearly violates at 5:07. This would make this incident actually a clear case, as Alonso did not leave “a fair and acceptable width for the care being overtaken”.
I think for Alonso's move it's quite complicated. The stills make it look a lot more clear cut then it really is... Yes, he had two wheels alongside Carlos at the apex but only because he broke so late (from no part alongside Carlos.) He was not going to overshoot the corner but he did overshoot the apex. This is where the issue lies. Carlos did leave more than a cars width at the apex yet contact was still made by Alonso into the side of Carlos on the exit despite sufficient space at the apex. Arguably Carlos could have left more space on the apex, but Alonso does surprise Carlos by going for the move from a spot with no overlap. I think 10 seconds is harsh, but I do think it was a penalty if you watch Leclerc's onboard rather than look at still images.
Yeah, he had so much momentum into the corner that to keep the position he had to use the whole width of the track post-apex, not allowing for room on the outside - i.e. even if there was no intentional touch, he'd have pushed Sainz off the track.
Thats a fair take to a point, but then we come into the bit about grip levels and what the drivers know. Drivers are, and should, push the limits of what their cars cna do in racing, given how light of a contact this was its clear the difference between making it and not was very small. It's reasonable to believe Alonso thought in the moment he could make it and that it wasn't not an implausible move for him to attempt given the cars demonstrated grip levels.
Restricting drivers solely to moves that are well within the current grip levels that are certain to be possibble severely restricts the racing that can be done and hands a massive advantage to any defending driver to boot.
@@darthkarl99 I agree with this, but I think this argument starts to become a slippery slope.
Any driver who causes an incident from an overzealous braking maneuver can claim 'pushing the limits' which will lead to argy bargy racing which is also not exactly what we are looking for. Perfect for GT racing but not Formula 1. We know how aerodynically sensitive these cars are and how a little damage can be completely race destroying.
Unfortunately, I think racing will always have this grey area between exciting racing and over the limit - it's just the nature of the sport. You and I will disagree and so will stewards, I guess we just have to keep the conversation going and hope we meet somewhere in the middle!!
What you need is some Sterling Moss style sportsmanship… Racing respect.
Welcome to the Farce1.... I'm done wasting time with it, rather watch F2/3 or any other racing where actual racing happens
74 years into F1 and they still can't decide what overtaking is. No wonder people are turning off
4:24 - I’m sorry your graphic for a car not going “off track” while overtaking shows a car with one wheel inside the white line. That’s apparently a legal move under guidelines, even if it still looks like a dive 😹
All this could easily be solved by just saying you always need to leave atleast 1 cars width on the inside of a corner and atleast half a cars width on the outside of a corner if a car is alongside you. Failure to do so is an automatic 5 second penalty without contact and 10 seconds with contact, and a drive through penalty if the other car is forced to immediately retire either through a crash or damage that makes them retire in the next 2 laps or so. And make it so it is always on the overtaking driver to pass safely like every other motorsport. You cause a crash as an overtaking driver, drive through penalty/10 place grid penalty next race. The crash is always the overtaking drivers fault as long as 2 metres was left on the inside the entire time or 1 metre on the outside the entire time.
There, a simple and comprehensive set of rules that could be easily applied and would require absolutely zero judgement calls. It's an objective measurement, drivers either leave space, or risk penalties. This promotes more battles, by allowing both overtaking and defensive moves without allowing drivers to go over the line. No more Max running them off track, no more drivers slamming the door last minute. If your car gets at all alongside, you're owed space. Don't want to give them space? Then hold the inside and don't give them enough space on the track to get alongside you at all. If they can get their front wing alongside your rear wheel, you have to give them that space now. You should've defended better.
For those that are curious, when the corner has lots of room on the outside, the 1 metre would apply all the way until the corner is completed. Which means if you hit a driver at the apex who is on the outside, and then intrude on that 1 metre space at the end of the corner, it is your fault and you get a penalty. You have to leave 1 metre on the outside of the track for the entirety of the corner. This is to prevent drivers running wide on the apex with the excuse "there was plenty of track on the outside" when we all know that track is unusable and taking the outside line has no grip. If you run wide on the apex, you need to stay tight and sacrifice your exit. This way, you don't let drivers bully other drivers and cause crashes. Think Hamilton and Max at Silverstone.
Jesus, I thought this was supposed to be motor racing, not an effing chess club.
kinda funny that iRacing has more clear rules for passing than F1...
Send it. Crash. Blame car crashed into for causing collision.
Even though he didn’t purposefully force Carlos off the track, isn’t that still a violation? I understood that as you must leave a car width on exit if exiting side by side.
My issue is that every other series has the same overtaking rules, just F1 do it differently and it’s way to complex… do what everyone else does it you will end up with excellent racing, you always have to leave space.
Exactly! I don't know why they have to confuse everyone with all this additional nonsense! Just leave space if any part of the car is alongside you and don't divebomb into corners and you should be good to go.
Given that most overtaking these days is by the car with DRS just wafting past, why don't the officials make it easy for themselves by banning overtaking on corners altogether, that should improve viewing figures.
Alonso's case seems pretty cut and dry. He tried to pass on the inside and wasn't able to maintain control through the full corner: he hit messed up and hit sainz. 3 points seems steep in the context of a sprint but they have to apply the rules evenly even if the race is slightly lower stakes than normal
This can be traced back to Charles v Max in Austria in 2019. Those battles are hard and can be given either way
Love that they’ve put “or you’re Alonso” into writing as sufficient justification to issue a penalty
For hard racing, they should do reverse grid and offer points during qualifying of almost the same amount as actual race day to prevent team from sand bagging. This way, the most dominant team don’t just cruise to the finish line.
Honestly i think policing overtakes should be based on safety, no one wants to just hit someone cause so many risks go with it, if it causes contact and damage it should be penalized
"All the time you must leave a space."
I think the budget cap has played a big role in this recently. Maybe a need to hold someone accountable comes from the fact teams are now more than ever conscience of the money they have to spend when there’s damage.
6:09 - Sorry Lewis is not a good example of a “fairer driver”, he is hard as nails especially on younger drivers. Sure Max is wilder, but Lewis has a long wrap sheet of penalties were his traces show he steers the car wide on the throttle and pretends that’s an accidental slide. I’m fine with it tbh, he’s just emulating Senna here who always did this without censure, but the Stewards have ruled this out of the sport.
But that's Russell and Perez...
With the current cars it's difficult to have wheel to wheel action longer than a drs zone cause they are difficult to follow and are big and heavy like tractors. Why you need so many technical rules on how to race making it super complicated to understand? Just leave space for the other car. Don't force it into grass/walls. I miss the 2000's with amazing overtakes happening all race long. Now we are satisfied with only few during the whole weekend
What I find interesting is that this is analogous to a major challenge society as a whole is facing. With the relatively newfound ability to monitor almost everything in excruciating detail (never before seen in the history of humanity) we are now ABLE to create rules for things we once relied on cultural values to police. Interestingly this is serving to reduce the ABSOLUTE necessity to operate from and train ourselves and our youth in cultural values - because NOW, we can essentially throw our hands up and just "play by the rules" without thought or self awareness of how our actions affect others or affect society. The problem is that rules cannot replace cultural values in a world comprised of flawed humans. Cultural (which often become personal) values are what steer us when no one is watching. They are what steer us when the complexity of the situation transcends 'law' - which happens a lot in the real world.