Franco. After a year. Did you notice a decrease in torque while cutting parts at the higher rpm. I am very curious if the motor can handle it. Thank you sir.
Hey Franco, did you ever find a way to run the pm-25 spindle by cnc? I have a pm-30mv that I’m in process of converting and hung up on this. Can’t find anything on internet about accomplishing this.
If you want less vibration you may consider using a simple V belt instead of a timing belt. I had a G0704 that I designed a spindle setup for that happily ran at 10k RPM all day running aluminum parts and it maxed to 14k when I did engraving. I just used a simple Baldor branded general purpose AC motor that was 1.5 HP and ran at 3200 RPM. I machined the appropriate size pulleys and used a 3L sized v belt. It did everything I asked of it, and I never had a belt slipping issue.
Thanks. It sounds like you had a pretty nice spindle mod on your Grizzly. Check this out: th-cam.com/video/bR9IqQi1bg8/w-d-xo.html The timing belt doesn't seem to be the problem on the PM-25MV. I believe the vibration is coming from the metal housing that drives the quill spindle. It only seems to show up around 3000 RPM. Truth be told, it's very minor and I'm probably just going to live with it for now. But who knows, maybe I'll go to a v-belt setup in the future.
What I did was switch out all the bearings and machined a large bushing at the top so I could use a high speed bearing in place of the normal quill bearing. That large bearing is not readily available in anything capable of high RPM's. I also ditched the gears entirely, no need for them. My pulleys were stepped so I could switch the belt for more torque however I never ended up having to. It was all driven by a KB genesis VFD. instagram.com/p/9ewBW9Rz-A/?taken-by=bens.benz
bensbenz Very nice. Can you tell me what bearings you used? Also, how did you make that bushing up top? I'm particularly interested in that bearing. Did you just press it into the bushing? Did you have to make a bushing to sleeve around the spindle shaft? Thanks.
I machined the bushing(s) on the lathe, just made them based on what I measured. It was a tight but not quite press fit into the head, the head wasn't exactly machined 100% round. Looking at the posts below I guess I made one around the top of the spindle as well. All the bearings came from VXB, I don't recall the exact numbers, that was quite a while ago. I know for the quill replacement one, I just found an affordable high speed bearing and made the bushings to fit. You can kind of see it here instagram.com/p/9d4MUwRz9n/?taken-by=bens.benz and here instagram.com/p/9eUU99Rz2_/?taken-by=bens.benz
Awesome! This is great information - I really appreciate it. I've thought about doing something like this in the past, but I was concerned that I would need some way of applying axial pre-load to the bearing to prevent it from jumping around. It looks like that was not a problem. I have a 6007ZZE bearing on the way. Question: What lathe did you use to make your parts?
Love your videos! I am curious why you went away from this setup. Am looking at a spindle speed upgrade for my PM25 and this appears to be a nice solution.
Hi Franco, you referenced the spindle bearing upgrades. Could you share more information on that? My PM25 spindle bearings get VERY hot even at 2200rpm.
Franco, sir. I beleive you have nailed the design from previous video. Good jpb on raising the spindle speed, it is one of the hang ups for the pm-25 in my opinion. What type of information are you looking for about the mainboard?
Hi from France, Franco ! Well done transformation, you have made a nice improvement by using a Precision Matthews mill of this kind. I have some questions for you. I don't have a mill yet, I'm looking for a purchase, surely a PM-30MV "clone" model. Precision Matthews cannot delivers their mills in Europe, but I have seen the silence of their brushless-equipped mills, so I will keep this choice as priority. But, but... the quill & collet seems also to be critical. In France we have a company that can sell in exclusivity some "clone mills" from "Weiss machinery", Weiss facilities are located in ...China, despite the name chosen. Most of the Weiss's mills are proposed with an "ISO30" attachment, even if you can order them with the popular Bridgeport's-based R8 or, with less transmission torque, the Morse Taper #3. By having used some professional & costly CNC mills, lots of people in industry are using the cutting tools mounted with an "SA40" taper, which is similar to "ISO40", and obviously bigger than ISO30. I have read that the cutting tools offer is lower in ISO30 than with SA40/ISO40, some tools holders dedicated for some carbide teeth are not available. But I have used SECO's carbide tools for machining aluminium alloys and fine steels, the aspect & cutting efficiency is very high compared with common HSS or coated/improved HSS enhanced with cobalt addition. Of course, thorough cooling was required (so the cabinet follows...), but the power available on the spindle was close of 15 kW, with a knee-type mill of 2 metric tons... Because of the tremendous housing bubble we have here in France, I don't have a lot of space (12 m² with stairs !!), I can't purchase an industrial-sized mill, I need a medium-sized mill that can be unmounted/upgraded easily. I have to said that Precision Matthews are proosing for sale some machine tools that seems to be very well made, with no apparent flaws, huge improvements & a comprehensive features, compared to "others clone resellers" companies. That's why I'm looking about a mill able to accept cutting tools in ISO30 tapers, for using industrial grade cutting tools like SECO's "MINIMASTER" for making with an universal tool some U-shaped slots, big holes, chamfers on edges & pockets made with "spiral snailshell paths", provided with a modified spindle equipped with a silent Poly-V belts close from your own design. I would like to mill lots of aluminium, some stainless steels, fine steels (cutlery grades), titanium (grade 25), composites (fiberglass, carbon)... ¤ How have you made the pulley used ? Are they coming from an automotive component ? It seems that the pulleys are not easy to realize from a stock bar & corresponding lathe. The surface roughness seems to be critical to obtain, to comply with the related adherence, and also belt wearing... I have seen that some US companies can provide servomotors that could be powerful enough to be used as a improvement solution, for having more rpms and also ...torque enhanced and angular control with the embedded logic: the implementation of motion can be set using open C++ software, both on Linux & Windows interface. A great, great enhancement is also that these very modern servomotors are using world-class permanent & powerful magnets, that helps strongly to minimize the space required for the stator... which could be useful in the little gap existing between the Z-column and the cutting head. As far as I know, some brushless servos provided by Teknic Inc. can be provided with a NEMA34 framesize, the biggest continuous torque able to be provided is 478,5 oz.in (3,38 N.m) @ 730 rpm for the ClearPath-SC family. They are using 75 VDC, a useful tip is that some Chinese factories can provide BLDC motors, for a power range from 1.0 to 3.2 kW, some models are rated at 5,0 kW with 48 Volts DC supply, 72 Volts DC or even 96 Volts DC for the 5 kW rated motors; all are available in air or liquid cooled. But the switch supplies are quite costly at this power range. www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm As an example, it is said by the manufacturer the following features for the 3 kW rated motor, with 72 Volts DC. Maximum torque is reached at 25,1 N.m, for 1621 rpm; 78 Amperes are needed (!!) for an efficiency of 78.82% (3.200 kW useful). www.goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/hubmotor-imgs/HPM3000-72V3KW%20Curve.pdf At these settings, the motor consumes 4621 watts, so it dissipates 1400 watts... Dimensions : 180 mm in diameter. 125 mm in height. 8 kilograms. The speed seems to be between 3,000 to 5,000 rpm. I'd rather choose the liquid cooled version, 1,4 kW of heat to remove, wouh ^^ ! Makes a warm workshop :p Here is a link for a professional CNC, weighting 2 metric tons, with a 9,5 kW spindle (also a ISO30/BT30), able to reach from 50 to 8,000 rpm, at a rated torque of ...14 N.m. www.optimachines.com/fraiseuses-commande-numerique/8767-fraiseuse-a-commande-numerique-optimum-f-80.html - price is set at 37,500 USD, without taxes & installation-related fees. An other one uses a 3-phases rated @ 2.5 kW, torque of 10 N.m; 200 to 4,000 rpm... surely a VFD behind. www.optimachines.com/fraiseuses-commande-numerique/9865-fraiseuse-a-commande-numerique-optimum-f3.html Kent VanderVelden also uses a modified PM-25MV on Linux, he tolds me that the Z-axis column and head/spindle lacks some stiffness. My hope would be to maintain a good accuracy when milling, by allowing the chips to be removed easily with the help of industrial grade carbide tools, thus avoiding the head to "lift" from the resistance of the parts to be machined, especially with large "flycutters-like" tools. I aim the use of a 80 to 125 mm wide, with 7 or 9/10 teeths, for obtaining flat surfaces. It seems that "monolithic tools" which stongly fix all the carbide teeths onto the tool holder, mounted into the spindle without any freedom of movement greatly reduces wearing, noise, roughness of machined surface. I have also a swiss-made mill, weight is close to half metric ton, the table is so small... it uses an antique asynchronous motor, in 3 phases, able to consumes 1,5 kW... so the available power at the spindle seems to be ...close of yours. The "Aciera F3" mills are well known for their accuracies, but they are not easy to uses in "traditional milling". Their shapes are leading to difficulties of numerization, including that the tables are really short in surface... That's why I'm looking on some improvements like yours. It will be a pleasure to read you ! Great job you have done & best regards to you !
Franco oh yeah, I remember now from your comparison video of that machine vs the G0704. I like that PM25. I have 3 CNC G0704's right now. I need to get my shop done, then I hope to make some chips fly again. Please keep posting, your content is appreciated. -Evan from WA State
It's usually better to invest in an additional high speed spindle for aluminum than to try modifying a cheap R8 bench mill spindle. A low cost water cooled 2.2kw 24,000rpm off eBay running ZRN coated carbide end mills would do a far better job. Those bench mills are too flimsy to do a good job with large diameter tooling anyway. A 1/4" carbide tool at 20,000rpm+ requires far less torque or stiffness to move through aluminum like it's not even there.... Save the R8 belt drive spindle for face mills and fly-cutters.
Would you be able to out a link in the description with your design?
Franco. After a year. Did you notice a decrease in torque while cutting parts at the higher rpm. I am very curious if the motor can handle it. Thank you sir.
Hey Franco, did you ever find a way to run the pm-25 spindle by cnc? I have a pm-30mv that I’m in process of converting and hung up on this. Can’t find anything on internet about accomplishing this.
If you want less vibration you may consider using a simple V belt instead of a timing belt. I had a G0704 that I designed a spindle setup for that happily ran at 10k RPM all day running aluminum parts and it maxed to 14k when I did engraving. I just used a simple Baldor branded general purpose AC motor that was 1.5 HP and ran at 3200 RPM. I machined the appropriate size pulleys and used a 3L sized v belt. It did everything I asked of it, and I never had a belt slipping issue.
Thanks. It sounds like you had a pretty nice spindle mod on your Grizzly. Check this out: th-cam.com/video/bR9IqQi1bg8/w-d-xo.html
The timing belt doesn't seem to be the problem on the PM-25MV. I believe the vibration is coming from the metal housing that drives the quill spindle. It only seems to show up around 3000 RPM. Truth be told, it's very minor and I'm probably just going to live with it for now. But who knows, maybe I'll go to a v-belt setup in the future.
What I did was switch out all the bearings and machined a large bushing at the top so I could use a high speed bearing in place of the normal quill bearing. That large bearing is not readily available in anything capable of high RPM's. I also ditched the gears entirely, no need for them. My pulleys were stepped so I could switch the belt for more torque however I never ended up having to. It was all driven by a KB genesis VFD. instagram.com/p/9ewBW9Rz-A/?taken-by=bens.benz
bensbenz Very nice. Can you tell me what bearings you used? Also, how did you make that bushing up top? I'm particularly interested in that bearing. Did you just press it into the bushing? Did you have to make a bushing to sleeve around the spindle shaft? Thanks.
I machined the bushing(s) on the lathe, just made them based on what I measured. It was a tight but not quite press fit into the head, the head wasn't exactly machined 100% round. Looking at the posts below I guess I made one around the top of the spindle as well. All the bearings came from VXB, I don't recall the exact numbers, that was quite a while ago. I know for the quill replacement one, I just found an affordable high speed bearing and made the bushings to fit. You can kind of see it here instagram.com/p/9d4MUwRz9n/?taken-by=bens.benz and here instagram.com/p/9eUU99Rz2_/?taken-by=bens.benz
Awesome! This is great information - I really appreciate it. I've thought about doing something like this in the past, but I was concerned that I would need some way of applying axial pre-load to the bearing to prevent it from jumping around. It looks like that was not a problem. I have a 6007ZZE bearing on the way. Question: What lathe did you use to make your parts?
Love your videos! I am curious why you went away from this setup. Am looking at a spindle speed upgrade for my PM25 and this appears to be a nice solution.
This design can be made to work but you need to pre load the idler shaft bearings in the axial direction. Otherwise, you will get some vibration.
Hi Franco, you referenced the spindle bearing upgrades. Could you share more information on that? My PM25 spindle bearings get VERY hot even at 2200rpm.
Amazing design. 👍 👍 Franco, will this conversion reduce the torque of the spindle? No experience on pulley, just my intuition, wondering...
Franco, sir. I beleive you have nailed the design from previous video. Good jpb on raising the spindle speed, it is one of the hang ups for the pm-25 in my opinion. What type of information are you looking for about the mainboard?
Thanks. I believe there are adjustments on the board and I was wondering if there is a way to get more power/torque.
Solid advice. Thanks for the video.
GIVE IT THE BEANS!!
Do you have plans for this?
Hi from France, Franco !
Well done transformation, you have made a nice improvement by using a Precision Matthews mill of this kind.
I have some questions for you.
I don't have a mill yet, I'm looking for a purchase, surely a PM-30MV "clone" model. Precision Matthews cannot delivers their mills in Europe, but I have seen the silence of their brushless-equipped mills, so I will keep this choice as priority.
But, but... the quill & collet seems also to be critical.
In France we have a company that can sell in exclusivity some "clone mills" from "Weiss machinery", Weiss facilities are located in ...China, despite the name chosen. Most of the Weiss's mills are proposed with an "ISO30" attachment, even if you can order them with the popular Bridgeport's-based R8 or, with less transmission torque, the Morse Taper #3.
By having used some professional & costly CNC mills, lots of people in industry are using the cutting tools mounted with an "SA40" taper, which is similar to "ISO40", and obviously bigger than ISO30.
I have read that the cutting tools offer is lower in ISO30 than with SA40/ISO40, some tools holders dedicated for some carbide teeth are not available.
But I have used SECO's carbide tools for machining aluminium alloys and fine steels, the aspect & cutting efficiency is very high compared with common HSS or coated/improved HSS enhanced with cobalt addition. Of course, thorough cooling was required (so the cabinet follows...), but the power available on the spindle was close of 15 kW, with a knee-type mill of 2 metric tons...
Because of the tremendous housing bubble we have here in France, I don't have a lot of space (12 m² with stairs !!), I can't purchase an industrial-sized mill, I need a medium-sized mill that can be unmounted/upgraded easily. I have to said that Precision Matthews are proosing for sale some machine tools that seems to be very well made, with no apparent flaws, huge improvements & a comprehensive features, compared to "others clone resellers" companies.
That's why I'm looking about a mill able to accept cutting tools in ISO30 tapers, for using industrial grade cutting tools like SECO's "MINIMASTER" for making with an universal tool some U-shaped slots, big holes, chamfers on edges & pockets made with "spiral snailshell paths", provided with a modified spindle equipped with a silent Poly-V belts close from your own design.
I would like to mill lots of aluminium, some stainless steels, fine steels (cutlery grades), titanium (grade 25), composites (fiberglass, carbon)...
¤ How have you made the pulley used ? Are they coming from an automotive component ? It seems that the pulleys are not easy to realize from a stock bar & corresponding lathe. The surface roughness seems to be critical to obtain, to comply with the related adherence, and also belt wearing...
I have seen that some US companies can provide servomotors that could be powerful enough to be used as a improvement solution, for having more rpms and also ...torque enhanced and angular control with the embedded logic: the implementation of motion can be set using open C++ software, both on Linux & Windows interface.
A great, great enhancement is also that these very modern servomotors are using world-class permanent & powerful magnets, that helps strongly to minimize the space required for the stator... which could be useful in the little gap existing between the Z-column and the cutting head.
As far as I know, some brushless servos provided by Teknic Inc. can be provided with a NEMA34 framesize, the biggest continuous torque able to be provided is 478,5 oz.in (3,38 N.m) @ 730 rpm for the ClearPath-SC family.
They are using 75 VDC, a useful tip is that some Chinese factories can provide BLDC motors, for a power range from 1.0 to 3.2 kW, some models are rated at 5,0 kW with 48 Volts DC supply, 72 Volts DC or even 96 Volts DC for the 5 kW rated motors; all are available in air or liquid cooled. But the switch supplies are quite costly at this power range.
www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm
As an example, it is said by the manufacturer the following features for the 3 kW rated motor, with 72 Volts DC.
Maximum torque is reached at 25,1 N.m, for 1621 rpm; 78 Amperes are needed (!!) for an efficiency of 78.82% (3.200 kW useful).
www.goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/hubmotor-imgs/HPM3000-72V3KW%20Curve.pdf
At these settings, the motor consumes 4621 watts, so it dissipates 1400 watts...
Dimensions :
180 mm in diameter. 125 mm in height. 8 kilograms. The speed seems to be between 3,000 to 5,000 rpm.
I'd rather choose the liquid cooled version, 1,4 kW of heat to remove, wouh ^^ ! Makes a warm workshop :p
Here is a link for a professional CNC, weighting 2 metric tons, with a 9,5 kW spindle (also a ISO30/BT30), able to reach from 50 to 8,000 rpm, at a rated torque of ...14 N.m.
www.optimachines.com/fraiseuses-commande-numerique/8767-fraiseuse-a-commande-numerique-optimum-f-80.html - price is set at 37,500 USD, without taxes & installation-related fees.
An other one uses a 3-phases rated @ 2.5 kW, torque of 10 N.m; 200 to 4,000 rpm... surely a VFD behind.
www.optimachines.com/fraiseuses-commande-numerique/9865-fraiseuse-a-commande-numerique-optimum-f3.html
Kent VanderVelden also uses a modified PM-25MV on Linux, he tolds me that the Z-axis column and head/spindle lacks some stiffness.
My hope would be to maintain a good accuracy when milling, by allowing the chips to be removed easily with the help of industrial grade carbide tools, thus avoiding the head to "lift" from the resistance of the parts to be machined, especially with large "flycutters-like" tools. I aim the use of a 80 to 125 mm wide, with 7 or 9/10 teeths, for obtaining flat surfaces.
It seems that "monolithic tools" which stongly fix all the carbide teeths onto the tool holder, mounted into the spindle without any freedom of movement greatly reduces wearing, noise, roughness of machined surface.
I have also a swiss-made mill, weight is close to half metric ton, the table is so small... it uses an antique asynchronous motor, in 3 phases, able to consumes 1,5 kW... so the available power at the spindle seems to be ...close of yours. The "Aciera F3" mills are well known for their accuracies, but they are not easy to uses in "traditional milling". Their shapes are leading to difficulties of numerization, including that the tables are really short in surface...
That's why I'm looking on some improvements like yours.
It will be a pleasure to read you !
Great job you have done & best regards to you !
nice, I really need to get back to working on mine
Nice job! Is that spindle motor that one from automation technologies?
Thanks. Actually, it's the stock spindle motor.
Franco oh yeah, I remember now from your comparison video of that machine vs the G0704.
I like that PM25. I have 3 CNC G0704's right now. I need to get my shop done, then I hope to make some chips fly again. Please keep posting, your content is appreciated.
-Evan from WA State
It's usually better to invest in an additional high speed spindle for aluminum than to try modifying a cheap R8 bench mill spindle. A low cost water cooled 2.2kw 24,000rpm off eBay running ZRN coated carbide end mills would do a far better job.
Those bench mills are too flimsy to do a good job with large diameter tooling anyway. A 1/4" carbide tool at 20,000rpm+ requires far less torque or stiffness to move through aluminum like it's not even there....
Save the R8 belt drive spindle for face mills and fly-cutters.
I don't know if the PM motor driver boards are the same as the grizzlys, but Hoss did a video on it th-cam.com/video/SfrEuHpZwv8/w-d-xo.html